Caylee/Casey Anthony Case EXCLUSIVE: New Prosecution Witness Sean Henady
Indiana– Last Wednesday, attorney for Texas Equusearch, Mark Nejame, released a few aerial images that in their opinion prove that the area where 34 month old Caylee Marie Anthony was under water at the time of the last search.
Today, in newly released discovery by the State’s Attorney’s Office, we see the aerial imagery expert responsible for that footage makes the witness list for the prosecution.
Sean Henady, tapped personally by TES founder Tim Miller, spoke exclusively today to blinkoncrime. This will be his only statement regarding the Caylee Anthony case until it’s conclusion.
In August and again in November of 2008, my services were requested by Texas Equusearch for aerial mapping in their efforts to locate missing toddler Caylee Anthony. In November only, my participation expanded to asissting with coordination of the search effort on the ground.
The complete case file, which includes information and Imagery from my office, has been provided to both the Orange County Sheriff’s Office and the defense counsel for Casey Marie Anthony as mandated by the discovery process. Every Image from my office was marked “Confidential Not For Public Distribution.”
Sean Henady, President Aerial Image Corp, 3 View Technologies
Henady, together with 12 year missing persons veteran and former director of Missing and Exploited Childrens program Mandy Albritton, recently co-founded 3 View Search Services.
3 View, a non profit organization, is a premier law enforcement support vehicle to provide resources and assets to emergency services teams and to facilitate search and recovery efforts.
Currently, 3VSS resources are only available at the request of the law enforcement agencies with jurisdiction in a missing persons case. 3VSS is chaired by former Congressman Nick Lampson, founder of The Missing and Exploited Childrens caucus in Washington, DC. Leonard “Len” Wilson is the organizations Chief Executive Officer.
Henady and his team of imaging experts worked extensively on the Stacy Peterson , Brittanee Drexel, and Corrie Anderson cases
In 2005, missing Indianna man Charles Ricky was located exclusively by Henady’s aerial images taken over a quarry he was ultimately recovered in.
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WOW BLINK!!! My request for info on the new witnesses resulted in you posting a WHOLE NEW COMPLETE STORY WITH PHOTOS, Just for ME!!!!!!!!!!! (notice I don’t put a question mark behind that… for good reason!!!
I am so impressed!!! (even before I go read it! GO BLINK!)
Ask. You get.
B
Any chance they are working on the Christine Sheddy case?
Well now, you would have to ask me that on her thread
B
Great work, once again, Blink. Excellent timing for your article, which is nautical miles past the MSM stories.
And a clue for anyone wanting to support a missing person’s ‘not for profit’ group, this looks like a highly legitimate organization as per it’s mandate to support services as specified by law enforcement and their needs and to work hand in hand with the likes of Mr. Tim Miller and TES. These are expensive resources, flying photographers by helicopter, and not without risk to themselves just because of the nature of the flying conditions and topography and going where they are needed.
(Certainly no ‘propheting’ felons and the like in this organization)
(geeze, even after going off topic– she is so good to me!!!
suz… you make a good point… cold case, the need for detailed mapping to reconstruct the scene…. you could be onto something there girl!!
okay, now where is the article on James Thompson, who owns a Maitland computer repair business? I hope I don’t sound ungrateful about the article on Sean Henady. It does amaze me that you had this article in time for today’s news release. You must be clairvoyant
I tried to post the link…didn’t work
You should be able to, just copy and paste. Just put the name of it in if that does not work.
Your correct, not me, and not anyone on my team
B
Kleat. You ROCK!!! Ask, and you get! Am impressed.
blink
awesome thank you
I notice Henady doesn’t state whether the area was under water or not. I’m guessing the photos will tell the tale. Am off for a look. Above link not working for me.
All I can say is from the credentials of 3VSS…that is the way you go about being a not for profit organization in the pursuit of helping missing people. No games, no felons, no cries for money….just good honest work (and results).
Sean Henady….professionalism at its finest! My guess is Blink, that you know about/have seen every image he has to offer up due to your extensive involvement in this case from the get-go. I don’t even have any questions about this man…..I would trust both Henady and Blink in this case even if they told me the sun was blue
Finally, the cream has risen to the top….what a breath of fresh air!
LRT, I appreciate the heads up, but can you kindly just spell it out?
B
I knew when I saw his name in the discovery today for witnesses for the prosecution..I remember him from the Stacey Peterson case.
What a consumate professional this man is….now can we have more people involved the search for America’s like this man.
Sorry ..forgot the TY! Blink..how rude of me.
As if. Miss Gypsy, you and the concept of rude are strangers..
B
Latest Casey Anthony news: Dr. Kathy Reichs appeared on the today show this morning, see video below. Dr. Kathy Reichs is on the Casey Anthony Defense Team: A native of Chicago, Dr. Reichs earned her Ph.D. at Northwestern University. A former consultant to the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in North Carolina, she currently consults for the Laboratoire de Sciences Judiciaires et de Médecine Légale in the province of Québec. Dr. Reich is the author of several bestselling books, including Deja Dead, Bare Bones, and Devil Bones.
“From teaching FBI agents how to detect and recover human remains, to separating and identifying commingled body parts in her Montreal lab, as a forensic anthropologist Kathy Reichs has brought her own dramatic work experience to her mesmerizing forensic thrillers,” : her online bio. Dr. Reichs is one of only seventy-seven forensic anthropologists who have been certified by the American Board of Forensic Anthropology.
Blink, do you know of her. I’m from Quebec and have never heard her name.
She is highly respected. Enter the battle of the experts.
B
Hmmm. what happened to less respected Dr Lee? How many additions and subtractions on the defense team will take place before trial or a plea bargain? Bets anyone?
are we to worry that she is on the defense team? if she’s that great blink?
No. This is not an area in my opinion there are any cracks in the cement.
B
p.s you said she was I meant is this a plus for them?
Is it just me or has the past weeks been like watching a game of texas holdem. You show me yours and I will show you mine. So who’s got the aces? Hmmm
I was just reading and here is some emails from Oak Ridge to OCSO, they are talking about decomposition evidence etc.
This information answered a couple of questions to me about the trunk…
I am wondering when they will release the new docs? anyone know? Blink?
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88156
Joan, wasn’t the last forensic expert also from Canada– Ontario– I’d forgotten all about him.
Blink, however there are cracks between pavers!!
I surely hope you are right– Casey must have one heck of a book deal to pay for all this!! I wonder if Ms. Lyon is bringing a level of expertise to this case, vs the Henry Lee’s and other so-called ‘high profilers’ who sell their wares to the highest ‘rated’.
What if Casey can’t follow through with her book deal before a verdict comes down? What then? Who pays the bills? Maybe back-up plan is for Casey to have the deal in hand, and parents substitute themselves if need be at the proper time.
How can someone, such as a defense attny such as Ms. Lyon, who must have some common sense savy as to who she is dealing with, ever get a deal for a client who has no fear, maintains moveable myths of her own creation and will not budge? She’s got the world by her little finger now, and knows it.
Ms.Lyons has not impressed me at all.I don’t really know how whe got the reputation that sshe has but,she hasn’t shown me anything.
I respectfully disagree, I think she is competent and well recruited. I do admit she is in need of a stylist. Don’t everyone give me the “You can’t judge a book by it’s cover,”. Yes you can. Perception is everything. She is from one of my fave cities in US, nobody dresses like that there, I promise.
B
I have been a long time reader of this site, but I have yet to post. So tonight I would like to change that and express my thanks to the author of this very fine blog. I appreciate the “just the facts ma am’ I enjoy the civil discourse very much. I have long suspected KC but I firmly believe in the innocent till proven guilty. That is why I was glad when Lyon came on board as it was obvious that Jose was in way over his head. I want her convicted, and I want it done with all safeguards in place. My question for tonight is am I missing something on the exclusive Sean Henady post? Is it just those 2 paragraphs or are there more that I am to click? Thanks
TY, the Henady piece in one page, his statement is indented.
B
Thanks Blink.
Do you believe the defense will try to shred this guys reputation?
and # 27, I agree, I think Lyons can be underestimated, because she is low key, and her manner is less aggressive than other defense attorneys such as Baden or Weintraub. In the end, though, that may be right touch, in a case like this.
No. That would backfire. He is widely respected and so is his team.
B
I’m sorry, I consistently leave words out, but you get the gist, I hope.
Wow! Great addition to the team.
Thanks, B!
What LRT is trying to explain is many of us are being harrassed on the FL topix board. This troll claims to be a member of yours in good standing and friends with you. It is attacking people, and we know you dont tolerate this type of stuff. This is just one of its uneccessary nasty posts.
whispers
Hagerstown, MD
#1794
8 hrs ago
I could use roadrunner, foxfire/mozilla
aol, or just blank too. no need to hide, and seek like you and others. hey btw I pee standing!
find me on Blinker…good friends with Blinker, she knows my identity, can you guess? YOU have commented on my blogs, in fact blinker always does. lmao. google, google, google.
I think this poster has crossed the line, and felt it should be brought to your attention. We have moved our site so we can discuss this case without interruptions from this Hagertown troll, yet that hasnt seemed to have stopped it from trying to annoy us.
Blink Your site is great! Sorry for interrupting all the excellent posters here with this menacing nonsence….Just felt this might be of interest to you. Thank you and peace out.
No clue, thanks for the heads up but my advice is don’t feed the troll. Nobody can believe a person like that is affiliated with me whatsoever. They come out of the woodwork, cant be helped, let’s move on.
B
#22 emails on webslueths were quite interesting…
Here is one that I thought was very interesting:
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**
Mike, I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch? Arpad
Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.
Very interesting about the products Pinene and Limonene. These are pointing to a shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Quite interesting seeing as how these samples are from the car, and prior to the body being found. I CANNOT WAIT TO SEE ALL OF THE EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE. IT IS DRIVING ME NUTS WAITING!!!!
Im very familiar with Kathy Reichs = she writes a series of extremely
popular mystery books and also is the producer of the TV series
Bones - which also has a huge following. I cannot understand why she has aligned herself with the Anthony case. In her interview she states that she will report the “truth” about what she finds. I find that disingenuous to the extreme - Baez is not paying her for the truth, he is paying her to cast doubt. I have read all her books and actually she is quite accessible through her website and I emailed her
and she replied regarding the Anthony case. It was the standard
“not proven guilty yet, everyone entitled to a defense” line, which I
was quite aware of! However, my point was that as a person who is admired greatly by her fans, it was puzzling to me that she would want to be associated with this particular case which has proven to be so toxic to the honest people associated with it and who have all quit the case after they got a whiff of the Anthonys and Baez, namely Nejame, Tim Miller, the Padilla group, all come to mind. Shes in it for the publicity it brings her and her shows and books of course,
and another bubble is burst for me regarding honesty and integrity
for the people I thought had them. No more of your books for me, Ms Reichs.
If you juxtapose this excellent post with the email from Aropad Voss pretty much saying he’s done BECAUSE of the publicity, you can see who has their priorities.
B
# 33-
Maybe Casey threw her shoes in the trunk, thus transporting the terps back into the car from the dump scene, or her pants, or the shovel?
#33 blink. Maryland?
Being from Chicago, I have never heard of this women, nor any cases she has been on. All the, he said she said is really getting annoying.
I hope that they have closer ariel shots that really show it being “under water” better. From what I can see, I see NO WATER… I feel bad for Tim. He has done nothing but try to help this ungratful family of nutjobs. I will NEVER for the life of me figure out why grandpa and grandma have “NOT” embraced all the help they received in finding of little Caylee…rather their intent of tearing them apart and trying to prevent them from searching. Its just so sad that they have drank so much of the “CASEY KOOLAID”. My god, what is with their own sick reality. George being a ex cop really makes him look even more pathtic. He should know by the evidence that they already have been shown that this chick did it. What kinda of cop was he…TRAFFIC?
Hopefully, it will all come out…every last sickening detail. Every stone unturned and maybe even they will see what kind of person Casey really was. Its gonna be doc against doc. ….One can only pray that Casey will just admit to it. She is not looking all that well lately…Haggered is a good word. Not chipper like she once was. Maybe even she is starting to get the BIG PICTURE !
thanks foer all your hard work Blink….your as good as it gets….
aaw, Chi, your just saying that cause you saw what I wrote about Chi being my fave city in the US.
But seriously, the images released are really in low res, and only as good as your viewing capabilities in this “genre” and proper analysis overlay if you will.. That said, keep in mind there are hundreds if not thousands that have not been seen by the public yet..
B
And Blink…..Not to change the subject…But As far as Stacy Peterson goes, I have long thought that he (drew) dumped her in Wisconsin. They supposed to have love riding the Harley in a certain area there (according to him) and he also had access to a plane….She is NOT in Illinois and never was…..
More on Kathy Reichs:
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs…WS02/605090372
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/evi…—reichs.html
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/evidenceprof/2008/07/bones—-reichs.html
This case is so terribly sad, isn’t it, Blink. An absolutely beautiful, vivacious, precocious, loving & well-loved toddler’s life was literally snuffed out by her own mother. Her doting grandparents, who cared for, supported, nurtured & protected her are now attempting to exonerate her killer. They’re trying to prevent her killing from being avenged, in effect, denying that precious child justice. How on Earth can this be?
The evidence is not only beyond a reasonable doubt, it’s beyond ANY doubt that Casey murdered Caylee. I just don’t understand why George and Cindy Anthony are doing any of this.
The aerial photos of the site where Caylee’s remains were found have blown apart the defense’s latest trial balloon about her body having been placed there after Casey was incarcerated. How can these attorneys purport such nonsense? How can this case even be going to trial? The prosecution has her dead to rights. They should be making a deal, not spending gobs of money on a hopeless defense. Not to mention the horrendous ordeal all the players involved are enduring, George and Cindy included. I am so tired of all this.
All I keep thinking is WHAT ABOUT CAYLEE? Is anyone in her family going to stand up for her? EVER?????
Do we know any of the details of how the photos of Casey’s tattoo were taken? I’m thinking it would be incredibly humiliating (I hope). She would have had to take off the jail duds she has been wearing for a year and at least strip down to her bra or less. Was it a female photographer? Were others there? I would think that would have to have some effect on her. Maybe the interaction with someone other than ’supporters’ last week had something to do with awful she looked at the hearing. She has to be thinking about how bad it looks for her to have a tattoo that directly contradicts her contention that she was searching hi & low for her missing baby.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…..Fav city huh? Lord knows why…HA HA ! If you ever here….drop me a line…..would love to show yeah the REAL Chitown…..Glad there are more pics. Can t wait for this trial to start..and it BEST BE ON TV! Heck I’d even pay to watch it !
Blink, is it true that Ms. Lyons holds the key to have a person released from a life sentence and refuses to do it? I’ve read somewhere she has a letter or document that proves a man in an Illinois jail, serving a life sentence, is innocent of the murder he is being held for. If that is true, it is disgraceful.
I’d also like to comment on the location of where little Caylee’s remains were found. I think the site itself says a LOT about who killed this beautiful child. How in the “WORLD” could’ve an outsider picked this particular spot to dump her body? I mean, they kidnapped this child, murdered her and then planted her little body in the one and only place KC and her schoolhouse friends played and buried their dead pets, right? I haven’t seen one document or statement that says KC told the Nanny about this spot. Sure, she couldn’t think that far ahead, thank God, but it would have helped her defense if in the early interviews she would’ve said she repeatedly told the Nanny about her “hanging out” there. It’s too late for that now.
I hope the prosecuters bring a big ole globe into the courtroom and really, really emphasize the unbelievable possibility of an outsider picking this very spot in the WHOLE WORLD to leave this body.
There I go again, arguing this case when it’s obvious the only defense is to pay off a juror or threaten a member of a juror’s family. There is no defense! KC IS GUILTY!
#35
what would be so cool is when this is brought up about these things being found in the trunk or whereever they were found (I believe in the trunk) and the defense tries to rip apart the evidence, the prosecutor can then question why Cindy washed casey’s pants and maybe even cleaned her shoes. That would be good because then the jury can say, YES, why would she wash those things and it will blow up in the defenses face!!!
Couldn’t casey have pulled her little car off the road at the end of suburban, parked it under the single slash pine tree there, thrown open the trunk, carried the bagged remains 19 feet, closed the trunk and driven off with the pine needles or terps that made their way into the trunk in the meantime, perhaps when the trunk lid smacked into an overhead branch?
Only thing is I am not 100% sure where that pine is. Sounds like it is near the road, but I need to beg dave or someone to go look.
Boz with all respect - there is no possibility that with a case of this visibility that a juror will be able to be bought off or threatened. Any juror that holds out - if that were to happen - would be put under a media and public microscope. There would be no way to pull something like that off with a ‘trial of the decade’ like this.
boz, except that if I were going to frame someone, i would dispose of the body close to where the police would expect to find it—-right near the home (which is where you would expect it if a family member did it, right? which is why I am still frustrated it wasn’t found earlier)
sayyyy, what do we think the FBI’s Questioned Documents Unit was looking at? The FBI’s site says this about that unit:
Questioned Documents
The Team
Document analysts (forensic examiner), document analysts, and management and program assistant
The Work
Document Examinations
Examine and compare data appearing on paper, including handwriting, hand printing, typewriting, printing, erasures, alterations, indented writing, and obliterations.
Shoe Print Database
* Maintain the database which consists of a collection of sole and heel designs and enables users to determine the manufacturer of shoes from prints or impressions left at crime scenes. QDU personnel also examine shoeprint and tire tread impressions.
* Examine and match torn or perforated edges of items, such as paper and stamps;
* Examine and analyze typewriter ribbons, photocopiers, facsimiles, graphic arts, and plastic bags;
* Maintain the Anonymous Letter File, the Bank Robbery Note File, the National Fraudulent Check File, and the Watermark File. These computerized files contain images of ransom notes, extortion letters, and other anonymous communications that assist examiners in the association of questioned documents from different cases with a common source. These databases have been extremely effective against crime committed across state lines.
* Testify in legal proceedings.
more at the fbi’s site
Boz # 43… I too had heard this and kept forgetting to look it up… here ya go, the articles on Ms Lyon:
**snippet**
The case raises the question whether the attorneys were upholding the integrity of the legal system by safeguarding client-lawyer confidentiality or whether they chose priorities that could have cost an innocent person a life sentence in prison. The attorneys stated that it was a tough decision for them but that they would have to stand by it, unless Mr. Logan had been threatened with execution.
Professor Andrea Lyon, the director of the DePaul Center for Justice in Capital Cases, worked with the two attorneys in defending Mr. Wilson, their client. As a practical matter she considered Mr. Wilson to be her client as well. So she also was among the attorneys who decided not disclose the confession.
http://depaullaw.typepad.com/library/2008/03/60-minutes-segm.html
#41 - Lily - seems to me Crazy didn’t have much problem taking her clothes off before…..just don’t understand why it should have such an effect on her now? Maybe because she’s not as fit as she was before?
Blink, do you know if there was 8 photobucket pics or 8 CD’s of photobucket pics? I’ve read both on local news sites….
this is just an opinion question: do you all think that Casey’s fingerprints were found on the ducttape?
Boz post 43. Just playing devils advocate here ( again I like to keep the scales balanced) If someone were trying to frame Casey this would have been the perfect place to pick. Not to far from her home but not in her back yard either. Easy access from the street.
Further comment re: coffin flies. I googled that as soon as I read the word in the e mail. This fly only consumes older dead bodies. After they have dried out. Not in the early stages (2.6 days) so these probably turned out to be the normal fruit flies that they thought in the first place. They like garbage. I always see them around outdoor trash recepticles.
The tattoo
Casey did confirm to Lee during his July 25 jail visit that her “La Bella Vita” tattoo was Caylee-related.
Casey’s defense team did not offer any objection whatsoever to the photograph of Casey’s La Bella Vita tattoo, so they must believe they have a winning explanation for it. Maybe they plan to say Casey got the tattoo as an oath or pledge that when the kidnapper’s returned Caylee to her, Casey would be sure Caylee enjoyed a beautiful life and that by branding herself with that pledge, Casey was affirming her intent to get Caylee back or whatever.
The prosecution will argue that Casey got the tattoo as a memorial to her dead daughter, and they can pull up Casey’s June 26, 2008 Photobucket downloads in support of that contention because the images Casey downloaded that day included an image of the words “La Vita Bella” in fancy script, the Apple of Death, and kissing skeletons. That particular combination of images is going to win the jury over to the prosecution’s theory.
Also, Casey got that tattoo the day after she created the Diary of Days document:
Diary of Days
On the worst of worst days,
Remember the words spoken.
Trust no one,
Only yourself.
With great power,
Comes great consequence.
What is given,
Can be taken away.
Everyone lies.
Everyone dies.
Life will never be easy.
On the worst of worst days,
Remember the words spoken.
Hold your head high.
Laugh.
Smile.
Love unconditionally.
Tomorrow is a brand new day.
She didn’t post the Diary of Days until July 7, but she wrote it on July 2.
todd
I think her fingerprints were on the tape truly!
#53
If the defense would even consider that avenue, that she got the tattoo as her intent to get Caylee back, then they truly have no logical defense and they may as well attempt to plea with the state right now
If the fingerprints are on the ducttape that was found at the crime scene, wrapped around her head, then every detour or conjured up theory is pointless. Regardless if Baez considers it to be “junk science”, he’s not the expert in that field, so his opinion to that part of the matter is irrelevant and a waste of time
todd, there are probably still ways to explain casey’s fingerprints on the duct tape. She lost a roll of it she had borrowed from Amy, maybe Zanny is the one who stole it, and it still had her prints on a piece of it. Or Zanny stole the tape from the Ant’s garage, and casey’s prints were innocently on it from some household use. Or the cops planted the prints on the tape.
Maura, re this: “Casey did confirm to Lee during his July 25 jail visit that her “La Bella Vita” tattoo was Caylee-related.”
How do ya’ know when to believe Casey, and how do ya’ know when she’s tellin’ tales?
Suz….are you suggesting she’s told the truth about something? I can’t think of anything Crazy has said that has been the truth….. I think the conglomeration of all the evidence against her is going to be overwhelming when we finally get to hear it. JMHO
And, BTW……someone else’s fingerprints would be on the duct tape too if any of the scenerios in #57 comment were true. And, to suggest the cops planted prints on the tape is just lame. But, wouldn’t surprise me for something like that to come from Bozo and the Ream Team.
Oh Lily if that is true ( holdouts being put under a public microscope) no one will want to sit on this jury.
Michigan Fan, Cindy has already told them why she washed the pants.
She said ” because they smelled like the car” Its already out there and on record.
Hi Maura- 53- I remember reading somewhere that those were the words to a Lindsay Lohan song. I cannot confirm ( I’m 52 and Lindsay is not my kind of music)
Suz 48- That looks like a dept description. You find them on all public office web sites. It tells you what dept does what job. Were you connecting that content to this particular case? If there was any ransom note we have not been privy to its existance.
Blink - Who is Steven Perry, Sr.? I noticed the clerk’s office website lists a fax from him that has been filed in Casey’s case. Something similar to this was listed on one of the other case files for her in late 2008. Google searches bring up an Orlando business man and also a photographer who does strange nude photos. Are either of these the guy and how does it relate to this case? Also found brief blurb from 08 on Scared Monkey’s about him giving money to the Anthony’s. Is he Casey’s benefactor? Or am I completely off track?
oops sorry Suz just re-read your opening statement. Its late.
Where did you see that this unit was employed in this case? Have to go read that. Perhaps this is just SOP and means nothing or perhaps to ensure defense does not claim document forgery.
Todd 55 I doubt that would be their entire defense. Just something to debunk that one piece of evidence. Show Casey has a human caring side.
The evidence in this case will be picked apart and each piece will have a corrosponding defense explaination. Lots of long long hours going over every little detail of every little thing. Remember the OJ case. You could be watching, leave go out to dinner and come back and they’re still going over the same piece of evidence.
What I don’t understand is how Baez and company can state they have “evidence” to prove KC’s innocence but yet they won’t say what it is. Furthermore, given KC’s previous demeanor, why SHE herself wouldn’t be demanding that they take that “evidence” to Strickland to get her released NOW and not wait it out until June 2010 or whenever the trial may actually begin… Baez isn’t Matlock for heaven sake! You would think that she would want to get back to her La Bella Vita lifestyle asap (except she’d have to start over in some other country,where no one knew who she was lol). I mean we all know they don’t have such evidence but why Strickland didn’t stop them in their tracks last week and ask what this evidence is is beyond me…. Blink? any ideas on why Strickland let that go? Or is it because he knows they are just blowing smoke? This case is captivating but frustrating at the same time!
Well my post wasn’t to argue the obvious that Casey got the tattoo - or what it means. I mean it is subjective and open to interpretation by the prosecution and the defense and unless she somehow becomes a truth teller and confesses everything - we will NEVER know.
I was more wondering about the hour or so that it took to take her from her cell (or in her cell); get her top off and substitute it with something strapless or pull her bra strap away and highlight and photograph her back shoulder and the tattoo. She had to be 1) humiliated 2) realizing how ridiculous it would be for someone in her situation to get a tattoo that said “le bella vita” 3) her first interaction with LE for a year (i.e., her first interaction with someone NOT on her side for a year) 4) how could it not stir up some doubt about her ability to pull of the miracle ‘innocent defendant’ of the century?
I never implied that she wasn’t promiscuous when she was free - I’m just saying that for a year she’s been covered from neck to toe. Now suddenly she doesn’t have control over having to strip her top half to have photos taken of a tattoo that she had scratched into her skin while her baby was missing and possibly in dire straits and she and her family were in ‘grave danger’.
Q: Is that why she suddenly appeared so wrecked at the hearing?
Todd- Jose Baez’ opinion won’t be on trial and you’re right it is irrelavant. What is very relavant is public opinion of this particular technology. Fingerprints were at one time thought to be junk science and were for a time inadmissable in a court of law. The average man on the street will either accept this wholley just because it is presented to them by authority or wont accept it because they dont understand it. Again remember the OJ trial. DNA cannot be altered just because someone steps in a pool of blood but when presented with the fact that the DNA in the blood was an exact match to OJ and that the odds of it belonging to anyone other than him were astronomical, they still didnt buy it. DNA is not something that the average joe is going to be reading about. (read that as not a geek like me ) They had the man but …
For this case the same man on the street is not going to have read about the body farm or the oak ridge laboratory or stages of decomposition (yep me again) so will see the reports but wont have the background so its either they buy it or they dont. I think they will when combined with everything else but if this was all they had, (like it was before they found Caylee) harder to say.
#51 Todd - I HOPE Casey’s fingerprints are on the duct tape. Its becoming more and more disconcerting how much the prosecution is trying to get this case sold in the media before it goes to jury. It makes one wonder if they have anything more than the circumstantial evidence that we’ve already seen over and over.
If not, there is always the possibility of a persuadable & naive juror out there that could end up in this courtroom and be convinced that there is ‘reasonable’ doubt.
I hope for their sakes, they have a smoking gun.
58 Suz
If Casey’s claims help the prosecution, she’s telling the truth.
PS - I was being too flip in that last response. Casey also helps the prosecution when she’s telling a whopper and they can prove it’s a lie.
Great discussion at Second Life/Virtual Juror tonight! Wish you all would participate in the next invite that Angela sends out via email. It was very informative. It was my first time to really have time to participate - and don’t worry if you don’t know how to do much - its really easy/intuitive and its set up so its a closed community so if you haven’t had a chance to figure out how to change your appearance or move around easily its ok. Angela created a ‘corn field’ - its exactly what it sounds like. If you want to go hide among the corn rows and play around with changing your clothes/appearance in private its perfect. Everyone is very nice & patient so if you have basic questions - let ‘em rip.
If you want to read the chat blogs from tonight (keep in mind all of the voice chat is not included which is a lot of the discussion but the text chat is all there) go to the vr hack forum and look at the Group Logs in the forum listing to read about about the autopsy report. Very enlightening. And disturbing.
Thanks Lily, I am longing for 30 minutes to do that.. Angela will attest..
Tell her Cooper needs a new get up.
B
todd, I think that Blink clarified in a past story and comments, that the tape was not posterior (didn’t get wrapped around the skull). That is correct Kleat. Wow you guys pay attention.
B
Does anyone know, is it possible to do Second Life on a Mac with OSX? i was looking around at the vr hack forum and got a message that this would not work. Any ideas?
#67 - O0ooooHhhh we had a great discussion about the duct tape on second life tonight. . . I got there late but they filled me in and then I went to the VR Hacks forum ‘Group Logs’ and read the rest. The part about the duct tape being over baby’s nose will make you weep along with other ideas discussed about items in the bags, etc.
Blink - I know you’re so so so busy. I am too (but probably not like you). I’ve got 4 boys and a job that takes me traveling all over the darn place but I am soooooo glad I made the time in between helping with AP World History for my son and a little time for myself at Second Life.
I am ridiculously hooked on this. Thank you thank you thank you for bringing Angela and all of the others at SL/Virtual Juror for us. I am so glad you weed out the bashers & trashers and that your brilliant BLOGS keep the bright thinkers and great minds interested here.
I’m more of a reader than a contributer - and your BLOGS are excellent and your contributers - silverspnr, Maura, WSH, (forgetting so many others, sorry!) are people I would love to work with everyday. I cannot take the low tone of so many of the other places - I. Just. Can’t. Do. It.
Unlike the A’s and their windfall at their ‘lil baby’s expense - I wish you could all make tons of money off of these great ideas for prevention for children at risk and justice for children harmed and that your own children and families are healthy and you are happy doing it.
I hope we can all sit at the camp fire in the corn field - and roast marshmallows again soon! Angela I’ve got to figure out how to get that pair of shoes you gave me. These little half-boots I’m wearing are not good except for weekends or campfires . . . hahaha
Angela Talamasca gave you shoes? Did you see that dang Laura Ashley frock Im running around in? Im making a call.. lol
B
Blink, Thanks for all your great work. A wierd thought just came to mind. Regarding the fight that Cindy and Casey got into on the 15th. What if Caylee had just gotten out of the pool, still in bathing suit with lifevest on and Casey being pissed grabbed Caylee took her out of the house..then changed her into dry clothes that were perhaps in the backpack in the car and then placed her wet bathing suit, life vest etc..in trunk? maybe even in a bag in the trunk? didn’t she drop off a bag similar to this to some guys house? or he found a bag of items similar to this in his home? That would explain Caylee not having shoes on as well as the chloroform in trunk right? also would explain the swimmer pull up pampers you believe she may have been wearing. Any thoughts on this appreciated.
karen 657, the latest docs released to the defense mentions the fbi doc squad under #13 (maybe, since it like some of the others on the list says ‘quality systems documents’ it will turn out to be something dry rather juicy,like a chain of custody, but it caught my eye)
COMES NOW, the State of Florida, by and through the undersigned Assistant State Attorney and hereby makes the following information available to the defense and state as follows:
1. CD-R – Discovery Documents Pages 8360-10439
2. DVD-R – Aerial Views from Caylee Searches
3. CD-R – Photos of Casey Anthony’s Tattoos
4. CD-R – Photobucket ( 1 of 8 )
5. CD-R – Photobucket ( 2 of 8 )
6. CD-R – Photobucket ( 3 of 8 )
7. CD-R – Photobucket ( 4 of 8 )
8. CD-R – Photobucket ( 5 of 8 )
9. CD-R – Photobucket ( 6 of 8 )
10. CD-R – Photobucket ( 7 of 8 )
11. CD-R – Photobucket ( 8 of 8 )
12. CD-R – Trace Evidence Unit, Quality Systems Documents (FBI)
13. CD-R – Questioned Documents Unit, Quality Systems Documents (FBI)
14. CD-R – Latent Print Operations Unit, Standard Operating Procedures (FBI)
15. CD-R – DNA Analysis Unit 1, Quality Systems Documents (FBI)
16. CD-R – Quality Systems Documents (FBI)
17. CD-R – 08091106 TO HM (FBI)
18. CD-R – Discovery Request 7A-TP-71176, Proficiency Tests (FBI)
19. CD-R – 081213001 TO HO, Q62-Q64, 7A-TP-71176 (FBI)
20. CD-R – 091002002 TO NR, 081021021 TO NR, Tampa (FBI)
21. CD-R – 081213001 TO NR (FBI)
22. CD-R – 081213001 TO NR (FBI)
23. CD-R – 081213001 Wf etc, fSA files from 12-14-08 & 12-30-08, 3130xL Runs (FBI)
24. CD-R – 009010709NR, 009011029NR, 009011029NR, 009020409NR, 081213001 (FBI)
25. CD-R – 090115014 TO NR, 081213001 HS (FBI)
26. CD-R – 080911006 TO NR (FBI)
27. CD-R – 081213001 TO WF (FBI)
28. CD-R – 080730003 TO NR, 080805005 TO NR, 080811006 TO NR, Tampa (FBI)
29. CD-R – 080730003 TO NR etc (FBI)
Hey, Blink: what do you know about Tim Miller arranging a lie detector test for Misty Cummings and saying she failed miserably, more than once???? A break? or just truth finally surfacing? Wonder what Ron Cummings is going to do with this knowledge being made public? It makes it look like he married Misty to try to shut her up.
To be honest, the only thing I can think of was to prove to Ron she is lying.. Everyone already knew she flunked the poly’s, I also want to know who her attorney is that the coverage does not mention by name.
B
Blink - Do you think there will be anything that comes from testing the maggots (sorry, everyone…it’s so unbelieveably horrid) that were found in the trunk. Is it possible for those bugs to provide any type of evidence at all?
If the tape wasn’t wrapped around, then in all yours opinion, why do you think the state put the dp back on the table?
Did you read my article on he autopsy, my good Todd?
B
Funny how Casey’s supposed “note of instructions” from the phantom nanny has never been produced…
Maura, I am heartened that you can extract yourself from ping maps long enough to be flip! I feel like I saw you smile. : )
Hey Blink, please let me add my invite to Chitown’s. If you’re ever in the Windy City and feel like talking about the case, you can always call on me. I’d love to have someone to talk to about it in person. My family and friends all think I’m nuts to be so interested in it. Frankly, I think they’re nuts Not to be interested. So there!! lol
I’d like to know if Jose or Andre or Linda has ever said to C “You need to tell me. Is the FBI going to announce that your prints are on that duct tape? We don’t want any surprises like that, so we need to be prepared with our response.” How do you think she’d answer that? I’m not sure how the system works if a murder suspect admits to her attorney that she actually did it. Any thoughts?
When will the doc dump be released? I have my fingers crossed that the FBI fingerprints will be included in it!
please forgive my naivity, blink, but your article on the autopsy, is that above? (boy, my face is about as red as Cindy’s hair is right now)…….
#78 suz - I noticed when I was searching for more info what the next docs released that Marinade Dave did a pretty good post about what you are referring to.
http://marinadedave.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/new-documents-will-they-point-a-finger-at-a-print/
#82 @Todd - the menu on the upper left of this website has all of Blink’s history of posts. Its under Categories. Scroll down to Caylee Anthony. You can find a lot of information from those posts and lots of excellent comments where these kinds of things have been previously discussed. I find it useful to use the ’search’ function in the browser (I use a Macbook) but if you’re using Explorer - use your search function - to look up key words for something you might be particularly interested in in each post/comments. Don’t feel naive - it takes a long while to read through all of the information. I wasn’t here from the beginning but I have finally read all of the posts and am much more informed than I was before!
Did Casey ever say she had a written script to follow? I mean the word suggests it is written, but since she claimed to get calls from zanny all the time from private numbers, etc., I assume her story would be that she was told to do this or that (go to Target, go to Fusian) on the phone from day to day.
Thanks Lily, much appreciated!
Zenaida’s note to Casey
1. conjure up fantasy address
2. file false police report
3. get Target brand beer, white-rimmed bug-eye sunglasses
4. if questioned by authorities, swallow sim card from phone
To Lily comment #46. What about tampering with a “witness”. Do you realize the Master Liar of the Universe is involved with this case. That would be none other than Mark Furhman of the OJ case. He said, during testimony in that trial, he hadn’t use the N word for 10 years(odd) knowing he made a tape using the N word 41 times 8 years previously. Why didn’t he say he NEVER used the N word? It was just so strange him saying “in the last 10 years.”
His testimony and character flaws pretty much sealed OJ’s acquittal. OJ was guilty beyond belief but that jury did not want to convict him because of a “racist cop”. I wonder if he was paid to lie!? It’s still quite unbelievable to me.
Furhman has already inserted a lie in this case or is making George Anthony the liar or just trying to confuse us. Or maybe just me. He said during an interview on the Greta Van Susteren show, “Well, it’s interesting. You know, the grandparents are telling me that on the 16th, when Casey and Caylee are leaving that morning at 12:50″
Notice “grandparentS” and 12:50 in the “morning”. George said it was 12:50 PM.
I’m worried his name even appears in this case. How did he get involved?
SAL: There’s a new story out about Mr. Perry. Look at wftv.com
For anyone who hasn’t seen this yet today….
From wftv
ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. — The defense team scored a small victory in the case against Casey Anthony on Thursday. Tim Miller, founder of EquuSearch, has agreed to testify as a defense witness.
JUDGE’S ORDER: Read Order About Tim Miller
“That the attorney for Timothy Miller … has agreed to present Timothy Miller as a representative of Texas Equusearch (TES) for deposition in Orlando, Florida,” Judge Stan Strickland wrote in the order (read it).
However, the defense will only get search records pertaining to the 32 volunteers who searched near the spot where Caylee’s remains were ultimately found and they have to pay for the records.
“That the documents of the thirty-two (32) searchers, which were referenced by Mark E. NeJame as counsel for Timothy Miller and (TES) at the hearing on August 21, 2009, are to be disclosed to both the State and Defense,” the judge further wrote in the order.
The defense wanted records from all 4,000 volunteers who looked for Caylee, but the judge denied that.
“That all documents related to all the other searchers working with or under Texas Equusearch are not to be disclosed,” Judge Stan Strickland wrote.
The guy who offered Zanny a million dollars to come forward in November.
If this is the real Steven Perry, he is driving a Hyundai. I doubt he is a millionaire.
Horne Hyundai Reviews:
Mon, 06 Apr 2009 13:02:57 GMT
make sure you have a deep wallet if you get service at horne hyundai.lynn,the service rep will go out of her way to screw you out of your money by telling you that you need this and that,belts that don’t need replacing ,she will go out of her way to get you to agree that you need something you do not need.never buy any car or truck from the horne auto group.you will get shafted in the service dept when you go and get it serviced. steven perry sr , gold canyon arizona,480-671-3057
http://www.dealerrater.com/dealer/Horne-Hyundai-review-20845/
http://www.wftv.com/news/20578666/detail.html
BOOT FOUND IN WOODS MAY BE TRACY OCASIO
BLINK I also posted this in your last Tracy post
#82 Todd,
I am no Blink, Maura, Kleat, silverspnr, et al.
But if I may offer a couple of snippets from the autopsy report:
“…This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place.”
“…Opinion: Considering the dispersal of the skeletal remains, it would not be expected to find the mandible in this position unless something affixed the mandible in this position prior to decomposition and the hair matting forming. In skeletal cases involving surface depositions, the mandible and cranium are normally found disarticulated because there is nothing to hold the mandible in place after the soft tissues decomposes. Based on the position of the tape and mandible, it can be inferred that the mandible remained in this position because the tape held it in place prior to the hair forming into a matt on the base
of the skull.”
Todd, I believe we can interpret “prior to decomposition” 2 ways.
1, fairly immediately upon death (with the probability of the tape readily there/available for use)
or 2, the horrific and heart-wrenching … while still alive.
Either way, in my opinion, the time of the duct tape placement (along with forensic analysis of the hair attached to the tape indicating a probable combination of “alive hair” and “hair with decomposition factors”) points to murder, not accident.
The likelihood of an atrocious, extremely heinous crime committed with unimaginable suffering being inflicted upon the little child, clearly qualifies the state to bring in the DP.
If I am wrong anywhere, please, someone correct me.
I do not see how Judge Strickland can continue to give rulings at Baez’s every whim. He’s making it to be so clouted with false doubt, that the jury is going to be conned into questioning the evidence. Why is he allowed to request records from EVERYONE that is at Equisearch, the entire 400 people, not to mention the ones that were tied with the search itself? He’s trying to say one of those volunteers TAINTED evidence? This is unbelievable, he’s going to get this murderer off so he can be set for life in retirement, and there is noone coming to the defense of the real victim here, Caylee. The ones who were supposed to be defending that girl are the very ones that are going to see to it that she gets off scott free. George, Cindy, and Lee sure aren’t going to see that justice gets served for Caylee, they’re too busy trying to cover for themselves and their murdering daughter
Thanks, Lily! While I was cutting and pasting text from the FBI’s site, I see dave was doing a bit more legwork tying things together.
Boz I think you might have been upset about my opinion about paying off jurors or tampering with witnesses. I’m sorry if I came off a little defensive.
If you’re interested in the O.J. case - last night in Second Life Angela Talamasca talked about her belief that O.J. could be innocent after talking with an FBI agent close to the case. I don’t agree with her but she said some things that I had never heard before. If you get into VR Hacks forum - you may be able to ask her about it in there.
My opinion about Mark Fuhrman is that he lied about using the offensive ‘N’ word because it would have really hurt his working relationship with his fellow detectives and he was embarrassed about using the word. You’re right - a lie is still a lie - and it did have a huge impact on the case unfortunately.
In my own opinion - Fuhrman is not really connected to the case at all. And in the O.J. case I don’t consider what he did as ‘tampering’ because I think the prosecution was blindsided by the video/interview that surfaced with him using the word 8 years before instead of 10 years.
These days he’s just making a buck as some sort of expert guest on the silly cable tv shows that are also making millions off of this case. So, I don’t think Mark meant to mislead with the 12:50 ‘morning’ vs. PM - I don’t think it was a ‘lie’ so much but just a simple mistake. I could be wrong.
Funny Todd. Swallow SIM card . . . LOL
wpgmouse I think that was a great analysis of the autopsy as it relates to the duct tape. I hate to keep monopolizing the blog today (I should stop myself and get back to work!) but last nite on Second Life chat one of the experts went even further with what was included in the bag and also said the duct tape was around Cay’s nose as well. I posted the link in one of my comments above - you can read what she said she saw and how disturbed she was. She felt like there were personal things in the bag and that it was like a shrine to Caylee in some ways.
Todd, correct me if I am wrong, but there is nothing in Judge Stan’s order, that goes beyond what Mark NeJame and his client offered to the defense– same 32 searchers, same offer of testimony with no objection to certifying Tim Miller as a witness. The defense did not want the 32, said they heard there were 100 searchers in that area, not 32 AND they wanted to go through ALL the records of ALL the volunteers and to copy what they wanted. They were fishing and Judge Stan put a squash on that and tightly– if they find something of interest about someone else being there, they can come to him, it will be reviewed IN CAMERA, then he (aka the court) will decide.
He gave the defense nothing more than they should have, and as agreed TES and Tim Miller would provide, before the hearing, by Mr. NeJame.
It was mutual agreement written into an order as appropriate for the record. Period. Nejame sees that somebody thought Baez got one over on him my bat phones going to start ringing.
B
Todd, to be candid, WESH’s impression was completely misleading– Keeling’s report was vague at best and could easily leave one wondering if the defense had a victory by getting records ‘they’ wanted– really, that’s not so. They got what they would have had without a hearing– simple as that.
I don’t know why WESH did this… they are just mis-implying, or putting incorrect empahsis– builds suspense I suppose, to say defense won something from the Judge.
hey, wsh– yeah, the nutcases evidence is coming out now!! When are we going to hear about who is stuffing Casey’s jail piggybank, in more detail. Geeze… that letter seems to me, to be written by a kid, all the lower case letters, no capitalization on the ‘I’s. Just like some text message would be written I guess. More woodwork crawlies… this one looks rather ‘trollish’ for some reason.
yep, same punctuation and format in that dealership comment as in the ‘zanny’ offer.
Who’s going to volunteer to help search for a missing person again after this? Knowing your personal information could eventually be plastered all over the internet. Good ole Sunshine Laws!
thanks kleat, brought the blood pressure back down a bit!
Good, Todd!! Wanted to stop that from escalating for ya!!!
There’s another msm report that says this: (so, the WESH version had its spin, this has quite the opposite)
“Strickland has decided to hold off on making a ruling about forcing Texas EquuSearch to turn over the names and information of volunteers who took part in the search for Caylee Anthony.”
Of course, he did make a decision, but not in favour of the defense for what they were asking for in addition to what NeJ and TM had offered (with Brad Conway’s perusal/approval/cooperation).
(That quote was from http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2009/8/27/tim_miller_material_witness_in_casey_case.html)
It seems to me as having served on several criminal and civil trials that there is enough evidence from the prosecution that will enable a jury to find her guilty. As Ive stated before, it gets down to assigning blame. This child is dead and someone is responsible for her death - who is to blame? Well, right now Baez and his minions can bring up all the red herrings they want, but they cannot point conclusively to one other living person that could have killed Caylee. And that matters - a lot. Juries dont buy into phantom killers. The defense can go into the minutiae of scientific studies that have claims that air samples are junk science until the jurors eyes glaze over, but in the end that gets discarded or forgotten. There is no other credible explanation for Caylees death, not even accidental death due to the duct tape. Whether there are fingerprints on the duct tape or not,the jury wouldnt expect there would be, would they? They know most criminals have a semblance of what not to do -which is not to leave fingerprints. In the end a 2 year old child who could not have left of her own accord, and who was in her mothers care ends up dead and not reported for 30 days. No nanny, no suspects other than the mother - the conclusion must be drawn that the mother was responsible. The defense can spend hours trying to prove that someone else planted the body - but they have no proof. It doesnt matter what they believe - it only matters what they can prove. And so far they cannot prove that a single solitary indivdual other than Casey Anthony was involved with her daughters death. Thats why she will get convicted.
lol… bat phones!! Zowie!!!
boz– maybe– BUT, even Mark NeJame (Sunshine aside) concedes that when someone goes searching or a missing person, and finds something, like a body or clothes etc, they have no expectation of privacy. The judge is clearly protecting the privacy interests of ALL others by the strict limitation for purpose– no drag net fishing in Judge Stan’s court!!! I think Judge Stan sees this and is going to protect the interests of those searching for the missing.
lily, I was not offended one bit. We all have our own opinions and I know that. OK? The way these people are lying to the judges, lawyers and cops makes me feel like they’re being coached. Furhman would be a great coach when it comes to lying! Wouldn’t you think?
I just read the ruling and it doesn’t say that he will testify for the defense??? It states that he will give a deposition, which is normal procedure, but where does it say he will testify for the defense or be their witness?? Am I missing something???
Well here we go. Whoever those 32 searchers are, better be prepared to have their names dragged thru the mud and possibly face rearing the blame for the death of this sweet baby. God this makes me soooo mad. Why does it seem as though the defense gets whatever they want??? I can’t wait to hear about the ruling on Padilla. I have a feeling that it will come back in the defenses favor. Let’s just give in to their every whim, only to help them in preparing a defense, cause we all know, they don’t have anything concrete to defend her with. GOD THIS CASE MAKES ME SO ANGRY. POOR CAYLEE!!! She lost her life, laid in the mud,water and rotten vegatation, was dragged around by animals once already. Now she is being dragged around by animals again. How much more does she have to take?? My god, she has endured so much pain in her short life already, way more than any of us can image, and NOT one person in her family will come and defend her. WTF??? Sorry for the rant but it is just not right!
Eh, I don’t think the Tim Miller thing will amount to all that much. Won’t the defense just look for a searcher who will say they were there on such and such a date and did NOT see a body in the spot where the remains were found? (And they might not find such a person.) Or else have Tim say “we did not search that spot, so we can’t say whether or not a body was there”? I’m not 100% sure I understand what the defense is hoping for here. Perhaps the ‘big brains’ on the board can enlighten us (for fellow fans of “Defending Your Life”).
Hope you’re right, artgal, but Lyon will do her best to make the jury feel mighty reluctant to send a young woman to her death if there is reasonable doubt. I’d feel better about the chances for a successful prosecution if the DP were off the table (but I really don’t know much, so don’t go by me, lol).
New findings in the Tracy Ocasio case!
A boot found in the woods, friend is 99% sure its Tracy’s.
It has been confirmed by her parents it is Tracy’s size.
They are doing DNA testing on it, results should be in by Spet. 1st.
Why isnt anything up about this on Tracy?
Your in the wrong thread, there is like 50 links and updates all day
B
Lily, as I like to put it, the prosecution needs to produce a smoking gun, and the defense needs to produce a smoking hot nanny. (Ok, i guess the defense doesn’t REALLY need to do that…)
Well said Michigan fan! I sincerely hope those 32 people just keep quite. Cindy and George set the procedence when they walked out of their depo. If these people get deposed, I hope they don’t show up.
BREAKING NEWS: JUDGE RULES NO GAG ORDER ON PADILLA
http://www.wesh.com/news/20582620/detail.html
michigan fan, from what I’ve observed (and I think read from silverspnr on this related subject), is that the depositions are taken so that they can learn what that witness will testify to, and they can also get information in their questioning. They don’t have to do this when it’s ‘their’ witness, but remember that it seemed odd that the state was taking depositions from THREE of their very own witnesses recently? Namely Lee Anthony, George Anthony, Cindy Anthony. This is because these witnesses may actually not want to help the state so much, and the state wants to nail down their testimony, get a sense of if they are intending to be ‘hostile’ to the state’s interests, or to any lawyer for the state etc. I’d guess the Anthony crew would want to give the impression that they would never be hostile, and then turn coat at trial if it suited. The state can get their statements under oath now, if they change it later– then they could be declared hostile witnesses, and then questioning could be more aggressive, with leading questions, maybe even perjury charges contemplated.
So, Tim Miller will be a witness for the prosecution but the defense may also wish to call him and of course, they go second, in the order of things, right?
michigan fan, they (the defense) can’t just sling mud everywhere or it will look pretty obvious– it won’t be SOD did it (some other dude), but EOD did it (every other dude). They are looking for holes in the idea that the area of Caylee’s body find, was not searched, that there were only 32 people in that area– the rest of the 4000, they’d probably hope to get something to implicate that there were some unsavory characters on the search, who could have ‘moved over’ to the Suburban location. They are not allowed to just go get all those other volunteer records.
Remember, there were lots of people around that area, protestors, psychics were there with their psychicmobiles and psychicdogs, and there was Keith Williams, and the Anthony family and friends, there was Dominic Casey (hey, maybe he did it) and Hoover, and probably school board officials, janitors or groundskeepers going down that street, there were utility people, police officers, lost motorists, maybe more school kids once school was in, who knows. So to be suspicious of 32, naw…
Ruling is out on Padilla Defense Motion Denied Padilla and crew may testify if Prosecution wants them too.
In the January 30 hearing, Judge Strickland granted Mark NeJame’s motion asking the court to toss out a request to have members of Texas EquuSearch appear as defense witnesses and denied Baez’s motion for access to information regarding the TES volunteers who participated in searches for Caylee.
While it’s true that Baez only got what Mark NeJame offered last week (Tim Miller as a material witness and information about 32 Suburban Drive TES volunteers), it is a victory for Baez given that Mark NeJame was unwilling to offer anything six months ago.
I would love to know exactly why NeJame made concessions this time around. My guess is that NeJame knew last week that Baez is in a stronger position now than he was in January relative to getting at least some of the TES information for several reasons. The business with Richard Cain is problematic (his failure to follow the tips from RK and KW appropriately, then lying about what he did, then quitting), the Dominic Casey/Jim Hoover videotapes (the ground very near the remains’ site appears dry in videotape they shot in mid-November), and the SAO reinstated the death penalty in April.
Jim Hoover showed up there on November 7th. He approached a TES member he thought was Tim and told him to get a team to Suburban. How do we supposed that will be explained?
B
Re: Volunteer Information
IMO volunteers would have to be daft not to realize they could be called as witnesses if they were in a team that found evidence that would be introduced at trial. In that sense, there could be no reasonable expectation of absolute privacy relative to the information provided on the volunteer application.
It’s also reasonable IMO that in the event that protocols were not strictly followed by the search teams and in the event that questions arose (as with the water levels in the Suburban Drive woods over the period July to December), the defense would have a right to review volunteer records and question volunteers regarding where they searched and what they saw because even though they’re volunteers, they made themselves part of the investigation.
The problem, as I see it, is that in Florida, the open records laws are so liberal that those volunteer applications could be made available to nosy parkers like us. That is the situation that could dampen volunteerism in the future, and I’m sympathetic. However, if both the defense and the prosecution get the records directly from TES/Mark NeJame, I am not sure that the public would see those records.
We have seen discovery that was reviewed by the SAO and then given to the defense. Once it’s passed to the defense by the SAO, the media may file a FOIA request for that discovery, but the media doesn’t necessarily get everything. Some information is redacted and sealed by the judge.
We have not seen any discovery collected by the defense unless, as with the Uncer and Richardson deposition transcripts, the defense filed the documents with the court as part of the defense’s action against the county regarding the December 11 videotaping.
The defense has deposed a lot of people whose transcripts we haven’t seen and might never see because only a certain action on the part of the defense will trigger a legal requirement for the defense to turn over what they have to the prosecution. Just as we haven’t seen (and might never see) a transcript or videotape of the defense’s deposition of Tony Lazzaro, we might never see the TES volunteer applications because those will be provided to the defense from Mark NeJame’s office, not by the SAO. I don’t believe Mark NeJame will have to file those records with the court as the SAO does when giving discovery to Baez. And if the records aren’t filed with the court, the media can’t get them.
However, those are my guesses, and I could be wrong.
On a related matter, last October we were regrettably provided with around 1,500 pages of Crimeline tips that often included the names, addresses, and phone numbers of the tipsters. Crimeline is an anonymous tip line, and even though virtually all of the released tips were descriptions of dreams and visions, the tipsters nevertheless had an expectation of anonymity when they called Crimeline, an expectation that was not honored.
I am far more disturbed by the actual release of personal information in the Crimeline tip discovery than I would be by the release of TES volunteer information because Crimeline tipsters DO have a clear expectation of anonymity.
The more I think of it, the more I believe Florida’s Sunshine Laws need to be retooled in the matter of pre-trial discovery.
I think washing away all of the mud that Baez is creating, in the end, they have nothing. He’s been all over the map with accusations, the “nanny”, Jesse Grund, Tony L, and soon to be, Cindy and George. It’s mind-boggling that they feel that they are allowed to forget the initial couple weeks with their false statements, except for the statements from Cindy and George that were the only truth that has been produced from them throughout this ordeal. Now I see why Baez didn’t want those facebook photos made public, he can’t portray to the jury that Casey is this “pathetic choir-girl victim” without it being disproven. It had nothing to do with “embarrassment” and “mental anguish” as Baez claimed, but instead has everything to do with his fear of that jury seeing Casey for the real individual she is and always has been
125 Blink
I’ve been asking that question for a while. I don’t know if we got the entire Hoover statement transcript, but on the released January 7 transcript, Hoover was asked a lot of questions about the November 15 and 16 search but he was not asked about that TES tip IIRC the week prior. After being interviewed for three hours by LE, Hoover and his lawyer were interviewed by WFTV. It was two days later, on January 9, that Tim Miller publicly revealed that Jim Hoover had approached a TES volunteer, Bill Todd, on November 8 to provide a tip.
From my notes, it was on Saturday, November 8 that PI Jim Hoover approached Bill Todd, a TES volunteer, with a tip. Hoover said he worked for the Anthony family so his presence needed to be kept secret. Bill Todd would not discuss the tip, but Bill Todd’s wife told Fox News that the tip was not specific but that someone (unknown) had reported seeing a white car near the Suburban Drive woods back in June. It is unknown whether the tip was really called in or when it was called in or to whom it was given (PI only or also LE and Crimeline assuming it wasn’t a fabrication).
Questions, questions . . .
I will trust you of the 8th, but trust me that Hoover thought Todd was Tim Miller. If you have never met them, they have a strong resemblence, fyi.
B
#95 westside
I’d love to know if that guy who has offered 1 million for Zenaida to “come forward” has any affiliation with Kidfinders Fraud, Inc. and are aquaintances of any of the Anthony’s, business, friend, or other. I wouldn’t even be surprised if Baez was aquainted somehow with the convict who wrote that letter claiming to know the “real killer”. Not that a convicted felon will aquire credibility, but if this was the least bit viable, why isn’t Cindy and George high-tailing it to that prison, instead of being a public parasite?
Oh, thank you Maura…my sweet Lord, you are such a bloodhound, tracking and pursuing only the truth. I have searched with TES before, and I took it as an honor; to uphold the truth, had I found anything connected with the matter in hand and would have gladly given up my anonymity for justice. Crimeline tipsters do expect complet anonymity and for many reasons. Let’s just say 1 in 1,000 Crimeline tips are valid tips to Law Enforcement, it is so worth the stipulation of anonymity.
On another note, I need to share with you guys a couple of things regarding Second Life…..
I have one hot MammaJamma Computer that I had custom built and it is more baby than I could ever have dreamed of and I love it. However, for some reason Second Life doesn’t like Intel and Intel doesn’t like Second Life. I can’t run Second Life and this is why….
Your computer must meet these REQUIREMENTS, or you may not be able to successfully participate in Second Life.
Internet Connection*: Cable or DSL Cable or DSL
Operating System: XP, or Vista XP or Vista
Computer Processor: 800 MHz Pentium III or Athlon, or better 1.5 GHz (XP), 2-GHz (Vista) 32-bit (x86) or better
Computer Memory: 512 MB or more 1 GB or more
Screen Resolution: 1024×768 pixels 1024×768 pixels or higher
Graphics Card for XP**: •NVIDIA GeForce 6600 or better
•OR ATI Radeon 8500, 9250 or better
•OR Intel 945 chipset
My computer meets all of those requirements except the Intel 945 Chipset and I am SOOL.
For those of you with MAC systems….
Mac OS X Minimum Requirements Recommended
Internet Connection*: Cable or DSL Cable or DSL
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.4.11 or better Mac OS X 10.5.4 or better
Computer Processor: 1 GHz G4 or better 1.25 GHz G4 or better
Computer Memory: 512 MB or more 1 GB or more
Screen Resolution: 1024×768 pixels 1024×768 pixels or higher
Graphics Card**: •ATI Radeon 9200 and above
•OR ATI Radeon X Series
•OR NVIDIA GeForce 2, GeForce 4
•ATI: X1600, X1900, X2400, X2600
•OR NVIDIA: 6800, 7600, 7800, 8800
* Second Life is not compatible with dial-up internet, satellite internet, and some wireless internet services.
** Second Life may not run on graphics cards other than the ones listed above. The following cards are NOT compatible with Second Life:
•NVIDIA cards that report as a RIVA TNT or TNT2
•ATI cards that report as RAGE, RAGE PRO, or RADEON 320M, 340M, 345M, or similar model numbers
•Intel chipsets less than a 945 including Intel Extreme
•Cards with the following branding: 3DFX, RIVA, TNT, SiS, S3, S3TC, Savage, Twister, Rage, Kyro, MILENNIA, MATROX
The following cards have not been tested with Second Life, and compatibility is not certain:
•NVIDIA cards that report as Quadro
•ATI cards that report as RADEON IGP or RADEON XPRESS
•ATI cards that report as FireGL
•ATI cards that report as FireMV
I have tried for a solid 8 days to hack, to devise and/or modify, trick, convince my system to explore the basements, roof ledges, and steam tunnels of my wonderful magic carpet ride but to no avail.
Some of us will not be able to visit the cornfields and roast marshmallows by the open fire and exchange shoes. Thus said, we all can sign up to
http://forum.vrhacks.net/index.php
and be one big family…though some are getting a fantastic ride in the virtual world….some of us are not.
PP, that was very, very kind of you. If you get there before me can you steal me a pair of Manolo’s?
B
I was reading on wesh and it states that the botonist claims based on the growth thru the bones, the body was there at least 4 months. That would show the body being there since for the sake of the 4 months, would place it there in around Sept. I know that they cannot place an EXACT timing just a period of time, but doesn’t this kind of help the defense, because Casey was in Jail around this time, wasn’t she???
what is up with the doc dump?? Nothing on it yet?? Anyone have any inside info as to when we may see it??
From the Orlando Sentinel:
Strickland ordered the information on 32 searchers — who were within several hundred yards of where Caylee was found — to be released to the defense and prosecutors.
Strickland also said that prosecutors and Casey Anthony’s attorneys may review other EquuSearch volunteers’ information at the Orlando office of Miller’s attorney, Mark NeJame.
If more searchers are identified as being in the area, the issue can be brought to Strickland’s attention and he will decide if the details should be disclosed.
***
So Baez can review the records of all 4,000 TES volunteers. If Baez can find additional volunteers who were in the area of east Suburban Drive, then he would have an argument to include them.
That seems like a fair decision to me, and it is a similar to the ruling Strickland made regarding Baez’s request for Anthony Lazzaro’s phone records, text messages, emails, and computer searches. Strickland said Baez could have records showing the dates, times, and cell pings for all incoming and outgoing phone activity from June 1 through December 18. Strickland denied, for now, access to Tony’s text messages, emails, and computer records (Internet searches, IMs, etc.), but said if Baez found something going forward to support an argument for text messages, emails, etc., that Strickland would revisit the ruling.
FYI - here is what TES volunteers have to provide and agree to:
TES Volunteer Registration Agreement
Each civilian volunteer MUST complete this form. PHOTO ID REQUIRED
First M Last Name
Weight, Height, Hair, Eyes
Street Address, City, State, Zip, Country
Mailing Address, City, State, Zip, Country
Daytime phone, evening phone, cell phone, other phone
Email address
Employer (number of years employed)
Birthdate
Driver’s license # and State
Vehicle (yes or no)
If yes, make, model, year, and license
Emergency contact name and phone
Health (Fair, Good, Excellent)
Men’s T-shirt size
Do you have any medical conditions that our team should know about? If so, please list.
Have you ever been convicted of a felony? Yes or No. If yes please explain:
Have you ever been convicted of a crime against a child, family violence, or moral turpitude? Yes or No. If yes please explain:
List your SAR related Experience, Certifications, Training, or Special Skills:
The Family & Texas EquuSearch Appreciate your service. It is essential that you follow some basic rules:
Personal safety is the top priority for everyone. DO NOT attempt a task for which YOU are not physically or emotionally prepared. Do NOT leave the assigned team or staging area to which you are assigned.
YOU must follow any and all instructions given by designated Search Management and Team Leader personnel.
YOU must check in with your Team Leader each time YOU return from a field assignment, and account to the Equipment Leader for any special equipment issued. YOU MUST SIGN OUT before going home.
With this type of effort there is an element of risk. YOU agree to be responsible for your own safety and conduct. Should YOU be injured, no individual or group connected with this effort will be held liable.
You agree that any information acquired during your service will not be used for any personal profit or gain and will be treated as CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATON.
Your involvement in this effort in no way allows YOU to ignore or violate any local, state, or federal laws.
INS is working with Texas Equusearch to insure that any person volunteering their time or information on this search will not be investigated regarding their immigration status to be in this country,
NO PHOTOGRAGHS or VIDEO of any kind WILL BE ALLOWED AT ANY TIME, unless permission is obtained from a Texas Equusearch supervisory personnel.
I agree to the above rules. I agree to Texas Equusearch conducting a complete background check if applicable. I agree that no information with regard to search will be released to any member of the news media made public in any way or used for personal use of any kind. I agree all information, paperwork, or equipment issued, etc., are the property of Texas Equusearch. I will take no photographs or video on any Texas Equusearch sectioned search or event, without the permission of Texas Equusearch supervisory personnel. I understand that tips or information of any kind pertaining to a potential criminal case must be reported and removal of anything from a search are may be considered interfering with a criminal investigation, a prosecutable offense. I agree to hold Texas Equuserch harmless with regard to any personal injury or injury/theft of horses, dogs or personal property while volunteering for Texas Equusearch. By my signature below I accept these terms.
Signature:
Date:
Witness
***
What I see is that the only privacy agreements described on the form are agreements that the volunteer will not disclose information obtained during the search. There is no agreement by TES to protect the privacy of the volunteers’ personal information.
correct. No expectation of privacy either considering there were no less than 6 news vans parked outside. I was there the day before and got a text while I was standing in the field before set up from a friend saying, your on the news just standing there, dont curse or anything.
B
#102 lily
Thank you for your comment to my #97 post and for your suggestion of reading the Second Life chat from last night. I have to tell you, though, that I am so not ready to go that next level of information and discussion.
When I first went over the autopsy reports and read between the lines of what was stated, what was not stated, and how things were stated,
I came to the conclusion I had hoped never to have reached.
The overwhelming, disturbing, sickening realization the duct tape was placed on this poor child, this dear little child, when she was still breathing. Words cannot describe. I wept for her.
I don’t know if the duct tape placed over the mouth and nose was the lone cause of death by suffocation, but if it was then her fear and length of suffering and the possibility of being restrained is too much to bear. One could only hope that she was first rendered unconscious with something like chloroform.
Oh gosh, getting too graphic here.
If the duct tape was used to silence during a more immediate cause of death, like strangulation (the “missing” heavily-beaded lanyard that apparently always hung from the mirror of Miss Anthony’s car disturbs me) or a drug overdose or ingestion of some lethal substance perhaps, it still would have been placed prior to death.
And again, the forensics on the hair found attached to the tape could very possibly corroborate the probability of the duct tape as being applied prior to death.
These are only my own conclusions and opinions of course.
Feelin’ a little shakey here, lily.
Maura, thanks! Boy, I misread that one– mixing up the 32, thinking those were what the judge was giving– now I understand the ‘win’ claim by the defense. Duh.
wpgmouse - I would post the content of the chat but I’m not sure that’s ok with the expert and Blink. It is very disturbing to think of what might have actually happened when you try to put yourself in Caylee’s place and I think its what draws us all back after having to take a breaks occasionally in order for our hearts to catch up with the details sinking in. I hope I didn’t add to your shaky feeling and I can completely understand.
Plus I know what you mean about taking on another forum and going to the next level with Second Life. I can’t get into it as often as I’d like to - in fact last night was the first time I participated in the chat and instead of just observing. I lurk at a couple of the other forums that don’t get into the Anthony bashing and trashing but I rarely post anywhere but here. Blink is hands down the best.
I was just wondering if someone could tell me how to get to this second life.
Hi lily,
No, it was my recollection of reading the autopsy reports and my reaction to the conclusion I came to then that got me feeling a little shakey again. It was nothing you said at all.
lily, thanks for the thought of posting the Second Life chats,
but like I said, I’m not really ready to go that level of details, meaning that, I, personally found the reports disturbing enough.
It’s not a question of taking on a different forum, but rather the intensity and depth of what I am gathering from your comments, is being discussed. I have no doubt Second Life is fascinating and extremely informative. I admit I am intrigued by its innovation.
Alas, I am but a wpgmouse.
Thank you, lily, for your thoughtful comments.
# 129 Todd
I don’t think that either of those two men were anything else but attention seekers, and at least one is known to have mental illness. Attaching either to the defense,in my opinion, would only bring down their credibility and hurt Casey’s chances.
Who normally writes a critique of car service, adding their actual phone number at the end? Maybe he isn’t who he says he is, or is really lonely and actually wants someone to call him, I don’t know.
# 134
Wow, that’s a lot of info, ripe for the picking, from criminals looking to steal identities.
#130P-Poirot
Thank you for the info. I don’t have an intel tower and besides the fact that I am inept at this new technology, I can cut myself some slack, because I may “get stuck” due to lack of memory. I have some other “heavy” programs like photoshop and “itunes” with a ton of data in my library. Some of it is on an external HD, but I can’t put it all there. I have already seen a drain on available memory. Is there a way to do something like “clear cache” while on SL? I don’t know if that would be the correct terminology, but something that takes prior actions off, to allow additional space & memory while running it?
I may have to stick to the Blink site myself.
# 125
I think being denied outright in the original motion, had a lot had to do with the way that Baez worded it, with or without any applicable law (or lack of precedent). NeJame knew that he had no standing and so fought against the release of anything.
Then Mac came in and said that they found substantial evidence to show that Caylee was placed there after Casey was in jail. NeJame knew that he would have to release something, so he proposed a reasonable response; a limited release. He probably knew the entire time that eventually something would be released, but initially went for broke and then whittled it down.
Silver can probably answer this with eloquence.
Blink
Even though the state can use Padilla, etal as witnesses, do you think that we probably won’t see these transcripts before trial? It seems that the most critical of police interviews, thus far, have not been released to the public.
I do. We await the media request for them.. If it is blocked we will know why.
B
If you plan on volunteering for anything in the future here is a suggestion. Get a fake ID with the following info:
Boz- I w/held that until you can clarify for me please, not sure what you meant or what that is.
B
Hey Blink,
Been a long time since I posted with you. I know that you speak with Leonard so I have a question for you to ask him if you would not mind too much. Tony wrote the other day on WS “Whats really ironic is that LP and JB have been talking often.” Can you ask Leonard what this is all about? This statement has me concerned since I have to wonder why there would be continued involvement with Baez. The tone of the posting that day did not seem to indicate that it was due to concern over the documents or I believe he would have said that. No offense to anyone but it gave me a hinky meter kind of feeling.
The point Tony was making, although I do not read WS, I have discussed this issue with him personally, is that he does not know the nature of the conversations between Baez and Leonard and is a cause for concern. I agree with him. Leonard has done plenty ignoring the best interest of his nephew, and I think that is unfortunate because Tony is a good guy with the right intentions.
B
lily and wpgmouse. Regarding the autopsy and the duct tape. I am confused. Didn’t Dr.G say the duct tape was put on as decomposition started, which would mean she would have had to stop breathing at that point? There were discussions about this because alot of us wanted to know exactly when the decomp. process started. Since there wasn’t any tissue or organs to exam how can this conclusion be reached or is there more to the autopsy report we the general public haven’t been made aware of.
Regarding the secondlife site or virtual juror site I have been trying for 8 unsuccessful days to gain access. Today I tried to reregister and am awaiting an invite from Angela. I someone could please help me with this process I would be very grateful.
#102 Lily quote “wpgmouse I think that was a great analysis of the autopsy as it relates to the duct tape. I hate to keep monopolizing the blog today (I should stop myself and get back to work!) but last nite on Second Life chat one of the experts went even further with what was included in the bag and also said the duct tape was around Cay’s nose as well. I posted the link in one of my comments above - you can read what she said she saw and how disturbed she was. She felt like there were personal things in the bag and that it was like a shrine to Caylee in some ways.”
Lily - I was unable to find the link you said you provided. If you would be so kind as to please provide the link so I can review. Thank you.
Question for anyone who knows,
please take it easy on me I am no legal eagel.
Can you explain to me why Tim Miller is a Defense Witness and not a State Witness, how does that work, why isn’t he a States Witness, I double checked the States Witness list he wasn’t on there (as far as I saw), why? I would have thought he would be a States Witness testifying to the remains site and if there was water and if it had been searched, seems like he would be an important witness for the State, how will the fact that he is a witness for the Defense help Casey?
Please forgive my leagal ignoracne, I just don’t know how this all works.
thanks as always for all inputs….
The testimony from McLaughlin may not be the “smoking gun” confession type of episode, but another component in illustrating Casey’s behavior and inappropriateness, in light of a missing child. It may not be the big revelation that we are all looking for.
It could just be the defense trying to chip away pieces of the puzzle, bit by bit, that paint an unsavory portrait of Casey.
Although, if I am not mistaken, wasn’t McLaughlin looking for some type of immunity?
I hope it is released, because I think it would be the most interesting read to date.
I think that L Padilla , on the other hand, (whether you like him or not), is going to have some serious credibility issues, as a witness.
Okay, that’s it , I don’t want to monopolize this blog.
The immunity was a Leonard creation, not hers, she had no need of it.
b
Good morning fellow Blinker’s and what a great group! I have followed each of your post’s and they are all so great I am humbled to be a poster here. From the link below with over 600 posts I read this AM with tears in my heart and a clear association from Blink and other’s posts of times parents have for a few moments lost a little one. It is indeed such a traumatic thing.
I thought yesterday was a big win for the home team. The flamboyant cowboy and his team can testify! Whooopeee. As for the Tim Miller ruling, I saw nothing in it that wasn’t presented by Nejame when he stood before Judge Strickland and made and offer. The 32 searchers will be questioned, flew here/travel here to do so AT THE EXPENSE of the defense. Baez can go through the other 4000 people while in Nejame’s office with someone observing their every move who will be paid for BY THE DEFENSE TEAM. ECT.
Remember Maura or Silver pointed out that news agencies would sensationalize things to get readers with half/truths…I say twisting the facts….because across the nation the news is cold, and they want to make headlines that will be read? We Blinkers know the truth and have studied the facts and know the truth. I mean come on did the autopsy report say exactly that the body had been there 4 months?
Did the defense really win anything with T. Miller testifying and the 32 or less searchers being asked to testify/tell in a deposition what they saw? I agree it is detrimental to expose them to the onslaught of being brought into this sensationlism…but, think about exactly what did the defense gain? Those who have dug out the facts from the vast amount of information know this. That’s the Blinker’s folks.
I have a question. Did anyone catch when Baez was standing before the court and the Tony L’s phone info was being discussed. And the prosecution said, paraphrased….”IF you can get the info…” and Baez acknowledged…”yes IF we can get…”? Remember Tony asked LE to be released to get a new phone. Asked if they needed a tap on it anylonger? So he closed out that account and got a new phone. Are the records still there?
Doubtful at best.
B
Dee….no legal eagle here either, but I only saw it stated that Mr. Miller was a material witness….it never referred to him as state or defense! During this case I have learned that the media is really quick on the updates for this case…whether they are reported right or wrong….they’re FIRST!
Tim can not be subpoened out of state until he was certified as a witness. Now, the defense will file a subpoena in his jurisdiction (Tx). Florida has no jurisdiction to subpoena him as a witness in their own backyard so to speak. They now have standing to do so.
B
Can someone please help me notify Angela about being accepted. I have tried “search” on secondlife and can find her but there is no way to contact her. Am I the only one having so much difficulty with this?
@Cheryl in Texas (I’m in Texas too) the link is
http://forum.vrhacks.net/showthread.php?t=785
This is the chat log from Second Life Wednesday. It may seem a bit disjointed because a lot of people were using audio mic’s instead of typing in chat so there will be strange gaps.
I’d love to be in that courtroom and see the looks on the jurors faces when Mr.Padilla says how Casey told him to “get the heck out of HER house” when he tried to get her to live up to her end of the bargain of the bail by helping him search for HER OWN DAUGHTER!”
Ok, I’m not proofreading so go with the spelling errors.
SECOND LIFE
wpgMouse, when Aralyn the forensic person talked with us in group chat about the autopsy report and ect. everyone who was there was questioned to be sure they wanted to hear. All were affirmative, and you can always click the X and leave immediately. So, don’t rule it out.
Angela who owns the site and is coordinating the setting up of a realistic scene of the area’s, is a forensic psychologist. I already just adore her and Aralyn. But, she, nor Aralyn, have kept up with the case. And the area’s we go to are basic…the experts are off on another island working on setting up the real deal.
Angela opened the bare islands so we can come and get a feel of how to move around, explore, ect. so that we can be prepared for the “real deal”. Some have voice, some don’t. So it’s hard to follow a chat log if posted. If you can hear video’s on your computer, then you can hear us talking. We try to help each one set up to hear us. It’s easy to do and takes but a few minutes. If you dont have sound we try to cut the voice and type.
You can open the Second Life screen and minimize it and read Blink or whatever. Some of us are already doing that so we can try to catch you as you come in and say hi and help you along. So when you come in say something in your little chat area. Don’t just leave. Wait and if anyone is on we will get to you and orient you. Just say hi I am a Blinker help.
Most of the time right now we are helping people set up to join the group chat and to become familiar with teleporting around. Because we were sitting around in the lab, or the Anthony’s house chatting…Angela set us up a cornfield. In the middle is a campfire and there are up to 10 logs to sit on.
Just remember not to sign in and leave immediately. If no one answers your chat, minimize and come back. Keep checking we will catch you and offer you a teleport to where we are and help you learn the ropes. It will be THE place to be soon.
Angela is way too busy to help us since there are so many of us and she is off setting up scenes…so we need people to get oriented and be on hand to set up chats, and help the newbies to the secret “Cornfield”…..(we even have a tractor to ride and a windmill).
Remember this is not a new chatboard. It is an area we can communicate to each other about things on the case away from a formulized board setting and feel safe doing it. Hats off to Blink for providing it!
And eat your heart out, Blink,eh Cooper. I have on red heels designed by the one and only Angela with diamonds on them!
Blinker Padelo (Second Life) signing out for now.
Thanks Blink. Have been following your site for awhile now. Very informative. Does Tony have any speculation on these conversations between Leomard and Baez? I don’t like the sound of it. It bothers me because what I have been hearing publicly from LP does not mesh with a closer relationship. Not a big conspiracy theorist here…I believe the simplest answer is usually the correct one…but this statement gives me pause to wonder what is going on behind the scenes that we need to know about.
I know you’ll understand when I say I said I am confortable commenting on, Tony is my dear friend, and Leonard and he are family.
B
Cindee from Wisconsin have you downloaded secondlife. If so what is your name at second life. Open second life I will be there for a bit and maybe can help you. Angela, is out of town right now, but she has already added a lot of names of those who have registered.
@cindee if you can see angela - you can send her a message. I can’t think of the steps exactly and I’m in an airport not logged in to SL but it may be as easy as double clicking on her name or there is a menu bar or button that offers the ability. Wish I could help more but I won’t be back in SL until this wknd. I just kind of played around until I figured some things out. What is your SL name? If I get stuck here much longer I will try to log in and invite you
thank you now I understand I am so glad I can get a straight and honest answer to my many questions…Thanks it means a lot! you guys are great!
I understand. Thanks.
@Shelly aka Blinker Pedalo! I will be able to volunteer to help very soon as my traveling schedule lightens up and I become more experienced in Second Life. My nym is lily paquot and Angela gave me shoes too but I think they’re still in my inventory and I haven’t quite figured it but I will.
Looks like I’m stuck in El Paso airport so I can help anyone who posts their nym (name) here to get invited. Might have to go find the source of the smell of breakfast burritos first . . .
Signing up for secondlife, is there a specific link I go to, or just sin up right where it says register? I just didn’t know if it is all connected, or there is a part specifically set aside for this virtual juror
Blink ref comment 145: I was trying to be a bit funny and sarcastic. I believe ZG is the one and only KC Anthony (made up in her mind). I also believe volunteering has taken a step back because of Judge Strickland’s ruling. I don’t think anyone volunteering would EVER expect to see their addresses and phone numbers plastered over the internet. Just the threat of it disgusts me.
That address was KC’s mailing address at the Orange County jail.
I’m sorry Blink, maybe you were asking why “a fake ID”. I meant if you showed up to volunteer, you could give them a fake ID to keep your personal info safe.
No prob, sorry Boz, but because of the civil suit issue, I am gonna have to pass on posting that, lol.
To everyone, Boz suggested to protect ones ID to offer your ID as “ZG”.. which was indeed worth a giggle.
B
Michigan Fan #114
Declaring Tim Miller a “material witness” has to do with conferring jurisdiction on this Court to enter an Order on this particular matter (non-party, out of state).
It doesn’t mean –or make him– a material witness to either side.
westside #143
Your eloquence speaks for itself. Nice job=)
I would only add that the first 2 versions of this Motion were devoid of any jurisdictional basis for the Court to enter the proposed–or any–Order. The latest version properly “set the stage”. (and hence my prior opinion on this issue that Baez got some practice advice/assistance from Lyon or whomever).
dee #148
The State’s position is that Caylee’s body was dumped at the site in June–numerous weeks before Tim Miller/TES volunteers were at work on the case/months before they got to the Suburban location. If the defense was not now insinuating/claiming someone other than Casey dumped the body there at a later date/while Casey was incarcerated, what would be the probative value of calling Tim Miller to the stand at all? He/his volunteers did not locate her or any other evidence (for which the State needs to lay a foundation).
Shelly #150
Just to clarify-
There is no Order regarding the 32 volunteers being deposed. The defense is entitled to their information/can depose Tim Miller about them. The defense may also review the documents concerning all of the other volunteers, and may only also pursue further discovery about those individuals upon application to the court, and court approval of same.
*****
I am technologically challenged on SECOND LIFE! lol!
I am wearing a HORRIBLE grey suit (I am next in line behind Blink for those Manolos;)
I tend to prefer reading, so am mainly on this site (plus the other cases).
I suppose my identity there will be easy to guess, but here you go:
“Silverspnr Lionheart”
thanks silver!
I’ve just noticed that WESH linked it’s ‘timeline’ of a slideshow on their recent CA story, nothing new in the timeline but a couple important events stick out because of the anniversary dates today and tomorrow as we await Judge Strickland’s decision on the fraud/forgery charges brought one year ago tomorrow. And the announcement of ‘Caylee is dead’, that followed these charges by a few days.
August 29th: Casey Anthony rearrested on fraud and forgery charges.
September 1st: Investigators declare “Caylee is dead.
August 29- Sept 2: Large search conducted for Caylee (PHOTO shows mounted searchers in full RAIN GEAR)
August 30: The organization Texas Equu Search joins search for Caylee
(link: “http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/19724912/detail.html )
#147 cindeefromwisconsin
Good morning,cindeefromwisconsin. It was not “when decomposition started”, but rather “before the start” of any decomposition. I can clarify further by copying and pasting here for you my previous comment to Todd in Tulsa who wondered about the duct tape placement and the state’s decision to seek the DP.
I hope this helps:
#82 Todd,
I am no Blink, Maura, Kleat, silverspnr, et al.
But if I may offer a couple of snippets from the autopsy report:
“…This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place.”
“…Opinion: Considering the dispersal of the skeletal remains, it would not be expected to find the mandible in this position unless something affixed the mandible in this position prior to decomposition and the hair matting forming. In skeletal cases involving surface depositions, the mandible and cranium are normally found disarticulated because there is nothing to hold the mandible in place after the soft tissues decomposes. Based on the position of the tape and mandible, it can be inferred that the mandible remained in this position because the tape held it in place prior to the hair forming into a matt on the base
of the skull.”
Todd, I believe we can interpret “prior to decomposition” 2 ways.
1, fairly immediately upon death (with the probability of the tape readily there/available for use)
or 2, the horrific and heart-wrenching … while still alive.
Either way, in my opinion, the time of the duct tape placement (along with forensic analysis of the hair attached to the tape indicating a probable combination of “alive hair” and “hair with decomposition factors”) points to murder, not accident.
The likelihood of an atrocious, extremely heinous crime committed with unimaginable suffering being inflicted upon the little child, clearly qualifies the state to bring in the DP.
If I am wrong anywhere, please, someone correct me.
Silver-
I’ve given up in Second Life. One day I was trying to figure it out and got lost looking for the “islands”. I saw an entry on the toolbar that said “take your clothes off” and thought WHAT THE HECK! Wonder if this works! I’m now in bra and panties walking around in public places and can’t seem to find the entry that says “put your clothes back on fool”! Now I find myself asking total strangers how to put my clothes back on and no one answers me! HA Today I asked how to get back to where I started (thinking I missed something simple) and was told I never can go there again. So I’m hanging out at an airport- nearly naked! I GIVE UP!!
Thanks Blink. You’all seen this, George and Cindy out looking for missing kids: http://www.wftv.com/video/20601918/index.html
171-boz- I’ve never seen that. If I were part of the prosecution, I would be collecting all of these “appearances” by Cindy and George to prove their greedy, incompassionate, arrogant hearts. Going on all the tv talk shows, getting paid $200,000 for a dead baby’s photos. Getting put up in a classy hotel. On top of that, showing up at other missing kids ordeals, not to give a damn about the missing child, but to promote themselves. Whenever they see a camera, they feel it’s their right to be in front of it. Hailey Cummings missing? George and Cindy are their, to promote themselves. Trenton Duckett? Let’s put our faces out there knowing our daughter was the reason for all of this in the first place. Two wrongs do not make a right, and since George and Cindy are not validating this concept, their credibility and input should be cancelled and subdued. My opinion, ofcourse
# 170-Marian,
click on your map (not mini, lower rt hand corner), at top unclick “resident”, go to the search tool in the very upper right corner of the screen and search angela’s name. when you find her, go to the bottom left hand corner and click communicate. IM angela and ask her for a landmark. after you have that (landmark in the map), click on teleport, it should get you out.
Maybe those people don’t want to let you leave because you sre walking around half naked lol!
I hope that helps
When searching on SL, I found that the search tool at the very top right will work better . Search Angela’s name and then click on it, then you can IM her. She will later help you set up the Anthony’s as “home”. After you talk to her, ask her to be “a friend” and then her name will remain in your contacts, so that you don’t have to keep searching for her.
West-
ha ha ha ha ha If ONLY I looked THAT good! lolol Thanks for the info. I’ll give it a try.
# 664-Silver (prior thread) Thank you.
151
On September 12, Tony was told that the consensual wiretap agreement regarding his cell phone had ended, and he was free to change his phone number. He had a Blackberry, so it’s doubtful he changed the phone itself.
My opinion is that since his telephone use from July 23 (IIRC) until September 12 was wiretapped, that those records would be preserved. And I am not following the reasoning that if Tony changed his telephone number from 123 to 456 (assuming he maintained the same service provider and account number) that all records for the 123 number would be lost or unrecoverable.
I am thinking that Baez wanted Tony’s actual text messages in addition to the record of outgoing and incoming phone calls and text messages. Those text messages that predated the wiretap (say from June 1 through July 15 especially) could very well be lost if Tony didn’t save them. Is that what the “IF” referred to?
(off-thread warning! this is my ‘home-made’ ping back to the latest Haleigh Cummings revealing ‘video’ of Misty’s polygraph released today: http://blinkoncrime.com/2009/03/23/haleigh-cummings-case-exclusive-misty-on-3-day-bender-with-lover-and-drugs/#comment-1498561 )
boz, I saw the video of George and Cindy at the Duckett vigil and it made me have that ever rare “throw up in the back of my throat” moment. They make me sick!!!!
Todd in Tulsa…. I noticed a few posts back that you seemed upset and worried that Casey is going to walk away from this without any type conviction whatsoever. I understand your feelings and anger over the grandparents participating in trying to free the KILLER of Caylee. It’s the most disgusting thing I’ve ever witnessed. Truly!!
Y’all know I rarely post, but when I do, I try to do it in the simplest of terms. I try to look at it from the juror’s point of view, not only that, I am one of many that are not on the level of sleuthing that Blink, Kleat, Maura, Silver etc. are on. I’m just an ordinary, everyday girl that happens to be an avid reader of this and many sites. Actually, I spend 95 percent of the day reading. I say I’m ordinary, but in fact probably know more news and even BS than most people on Earth. Ha!
My point is this….. I don’t think Casey will walk free, not for the MURDER of her OWN DAUGHTER or any other crime for that matter. No amount of sickening parading by George and Cindy is going to change that. No amount of high class, high paid lawyers or experts is going to sway a jury to believe she is innocent, not guilty, or show any reasonable doubt whatsoever.
I do hope Baez and team read here, because it would be nice for him to understand that he is NOT convincing the experts or lawyers of anything, but more than that, he is NOT convincing the everyday citizens of anything. If he is doing anything at all, he is making things much worse, EACH TIME HE OPENS HIS BIG PIEHOLE.
For BAEZ and ANYONE that is worried that Casey will walk. NOTHING AND NO AMOUNT OF slick attorney tactics can or EVER WILL change a few things….those are as follows.
(1) No innocent caring mother waits 30 minutes, much less 31 days to call 911, even if given a non-existent script by non-existent nanny!
(2) NO ONE WILL EVER BELIEVE that Casey’s very best friend lived in the EXACT apartment complex the nanny did and she NEVER mentioned to Annie Downing that her nanny lived a few doors down and she visited there each day. GIVE ME A BIG FREAKIN’ BREAK!
I actually hit submit comment before I was finished making my list, but now that I look back at my comment, even though I only listed 2 things, I realize that the other 5 are really just dust in the wind so to speak. There need not be anymore than just those two for Casey to be convicted. In fact, just the 31 days is going to do it. SO I suppose, ’nuff said…!!!!!
#179 Wendy: you’re a keeper
#170-Mariann
I am dying laughing reading your post! Glad to see I wasn’t the only one! Hang in there… it took me 2 hours trying to figure out how to put shoes on. Now I’m wearing what appears to be black boxes?!? Lot’s of helpful jurors in there once you make it to the islands.
Maura #177
Bingo.
Can you imagine the amt of data storage space that would be required for the carriers to maintain txt msgs for longer than a relatively short duration? This generation tends to txt almost non-stop. They txt friends who are in the same room.
The odd thing was that the Judge appeared to lack an appreciation for how much information is contained in txt msgs. (Although, again, IF they are even available).
For example, had Casey merely phoned Amy to tell her about the bad smell in the car, instead of txting her about it, we would only have Amy’s word on that (if she even remembered it/thought to mention it to LE)–and to get her pinned down on dates/times without the “timestamp” of a txt msg.. forget it.
And Cindy will NEVER divulge the truth about the content of phone call discussions with Casey during the 31 days.
(She was VERY concerned about whether or not LE could somehow discover this content during one of her LE interviews. VERY CONCERNED.)
hello,
can someone help me please??? i signed up at second life and have no idea what i do now..my name there is autumn idayl..if someone can help me i would greatly appreciate it…thank you
hello again,
i put the wrong name that i registered with at second life… its autumn iadyl please if someone could help me that would be great..thanks
Blink,
when can we expect part II
Caylee/Casey Anthony Case: Caylees Autopsy Revelations Part I
just asking as this was an amazing post
Technically that was second life, but we are going to build that into the next one, not sure.
B
thanks Blink!
cant wait, that post was awesome, with so many postings, read them again today, so much information, would love to hear more on your perspective on any new evidence released….the break downs really tell it all, love the second life info!
about Tony’s text messages– didn’t the defense say in the hearing, that they asked AT&T to hold the messages pending permission to get them?
183 Silver
I completely agree with you that Cindy will never be honest about her phone call/text message communications with Casey during the 31 days and also that Cindy was panicky when OCSO told her they had retrieved around 2,300 text messages from Amy’s phone and wanted to download the contents of her (Cindy’s) phone.
I copied the following out of a longer post I’ve been intermittently working on. I think you’ll agree it’s relevant to the topic:
Cindy, IMO, was busy getting rid of compromising electronic evidence as soon as it occurred to her to do so. When OCSO downloaded the contents of Cindy’s cell phone on August 4, they found only 13 text messages – all of them dated August 2 and August 3. I suspect Cindy had been able to reconstruct her Casey timeline in detail during her July 30 FBI interview because she had not deleted the text messages she and Casey exchanged from June 16-July 15, but when she realized (maybe from talking to Casey’s friends at two gatherings on July 20 and the following week) that LE was downloaded text messages from their cell phones, Cindy made notes from the messages and then blitzed them. Cindy was telling LE that she had no reason to question what Casey had told her between June 16 and July 15, and the text messages certainly told a different story.
On July 16 (time unknown) OCSO Investigator Awilda McBryde printed screen shots of Cindy’s “My Caylee is Missing” post and Casey’s July 7 “Diary of Days” post. When the computer forensics crew searched the HP, they found a copy of Cindy’s “My Caylee is Missing” post in unallocated space, so I am guessing Cindy deleted that post between the evening of July 16 (when the laptop was taken) and noon on July 17 (when the HP was taken), hoping OCSO would not see it, but didn’t realize they had already found it.
Here is a fragment of a Yahoo! email recovered from the unallocated space of the HP computer:
“can’t sleep, stupid hot flashes wake me up then I start thinking about you and Caylee. Dad said he went to work at 9am and he got home at 630p, he said he did not come home in between. I don’t know who or what to believe anymore. You’ve told me everyday that you were going to call me and you haven’t but you choose to call when you know I won’t be home. What the hell is going on? I’ve tried not to bug you to death but I still haven’t gotten to see pictures of Caylee or gotten to speak to her. It’s been over a month now. Am I ever going to see her again? Are you still with Jeff? Are you going back to work? I saw on the news that Anheiser Busch is being bought by a foreign company that does not want the theme parks only the beer part of the co. What is all that about they’re talking Disney or Universal may get to buy the theme parks. I thought Universal already merged with them? I’m not sure how much longer I can continue on this day to day course. I’m going freakin nuts not knowing whats going on with you. I had a breakdown at work, can’t take much more stre. . . . . “
Since it was in unallocated space, it was probably deleted, and there is no date or time-stamp indicating when it was sent. It’s an incomplete email although clearly written by Cindy and sent to Casey. The references to insomnia, to “over one month” since Cindy last saw Caylee, to George’s 9:00am-6:30pm shift that day, and to the Anheuser-Busch sale collectively indicate that the email was probably sent on the very early morning of Tuesday, July 16, less than 24 hours before Cindy called 911.
Yuri Melich wrote that while he was completing Casey’s charging affidavit (in the late afternoon of July 16), he sent Charity Beasley to the Anthony home to take possession of the car, the contents at the time it was recovered, the laptop, and Casey’s cell phone. Once Cindy saw the laptop and cell phone in possession of LE, she knew that that OCSO was going to be searching those devices for information relating to the case and she could have easily guessed that OCSO would be taking the HP desktop sooner rather than later.
The Yahoo email fragment was found on the HP desktop computer, a computer that was not taken by OCSO until noon on July 17 (according to Cindy’s FBI statement, the HP was returned “within a couple of days”). I do believe Cindy (not Lee) deleted this Yahoo email and any other written communications she had with Casey, such as her MySpace and cell phone text messages – anything in writing that contradicted the story she was giving that she believed Casey and Caylee were just taking a break to bond during the period June 16-July 15 (there were no red flags!).
As noted, there is no date for the Yahoo email fragment, but there’s enough information in the fragment to date it with confidence to the early morning hours of July 15 (about twelve hours before they got the car from Johnson’s).
On Monday, July 14, the local Orlando channels (WFTV, WESH, etc.) were reporting the sale of Anheuser-Busch and the impact of the sale on central Florida theme parks. The “can’t sleep” reference in the email fragment must mean the email was being written very late on July 14 or in the early morning hours of July 15. Cindy left a message on Casey’s MySpace page at 12:13am on July 15 (message unknown), so she likely sent the Yahoo email around the same time.
Of interest is Cindy’s reference to George’s claim of not having been in the Anthony house that day and to Cindy’s confusion at not knowing who or what to believe. The likeliest explanation is that Casey had gone to the Anthony house that day and taken something (food, clothing, mail, etc.). Cindy noticed whatever it was and knew someone had been in the house during the day, but both Casey and George denied having been in the house between 9:00am and 6:30pm.
This is no doubt the type of situation Cindy was referring to in the July 25 jail visit when Cindy asked Casey if someone had been in the house, and Casey said it was possible and told Cindy to remember that a long time ago Casey “gave her a key.” Casey never identified “her” by name, but Cindy told OCSO on August 1 that Casey told Cindy on July 3 that Casey sent Juliet to the house that afternoon to pick up some items for Casey, who was in Jacksonville. I expect we are going to learn that Casey passed out many keys to the Anthony house.
It’s clear from the Casey’s cell records that she was in full stonewalling mode. Just as Cindy wrote in the email, Casey was calling when she knew no one would pick up and was heavily relying on text messages. The exception Cindy noted to the FBI was on Friday, July 11, when Casey called Cindy because Cindy had not made any attempt to contact Casey that day. It’s my opinion that Casey was waiting for the shoe to drop regarding the towed Pontiac, and she was nervous enough after a day of not hearing from Cindy that she called Cindy on Friday night to find out why Cindy was silent.
Lerrik-
We’ll look cute together- you in black boxers- me in black panties! HA
Hey……. This just came up about “The Bounty Hunter”
http://wdbo.com/localnews/2009/08/judge-in-casey-anthony-case-ru.html
Mariann #170
LOL! That was priceless!
I finally–with the very kind aid of a stranger, and the more precise and kind aid of Blinker Pedalo (a/k/a Shelly, formerly j.g. on this site), and I have to tell you guys– it is very worthwhile to visit.
Walking around the Anthony home is E E R I E, and one of Angela’s pals told us that Angela is at work on Casey’s (bizarre) bedroom.
I highly recommend visiting.
well somehow I got bumped out of virtual juror in second life - will someone invite me back in? thanks!
@Maura #189 - Wow. I wonder why LE did not take Cindy’s phone immediately? Did they have to wait for a warrant or did the just not put together the importance? That email says a lot. Cindy is menopausal. Not sleeping. Casey and Caylee have dropped off the face of the earth. She doesn’t know whether to believe Geo or Casey about being in the house? All trust has broken down between Cindy and Geo and Casey is able to manipulate things even tho she isn’t even there! Thru text msgs. Unreal
Marianne you are too funny!
Mariann, the state will release those videos next week, or the week after! (I posted the link on the ‘motions’ story as it’s about one of those motions– yeah! This is breaking to the public before Ms. Lyon makes her big statement in the coming weeks, where she will argue (apparently) that the case has no merit, not enough evidence to support the charges– NOW we understand why they do NOT want Casey’s criminal activities as charged, going forward for the cheque fraud case, with potential conviction.
(before trial, I should have said– but then people here would know what I meant
#189 — Thank you Maura! What a post. The research you’ve done is fantastic. I learn something new every time I read one of your posts. They’re really amazing. And being a newcomer to BOC, I have to say that is by far the best place to learn about this incredible case. Thanks, too, to Blink, Silverspnr, Kleat and everyone who works so hard to get this information out. This is a great place to hang out with some really smart people.
Well……… I was welcomed with open arms (even though I was scantially clothed) To Second Life. We had beer and snacks and changed our clothes (more than once) admired each others shoes and chatted with one another. I really had a great time. Thanks for all the help I was given. I can’t wait to go back!!
http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jeff_lange/archive/2006/04/10/1785.aspx i didnt know that abandoned before completed construction, walt disney world hotel practically sat on hourglass lake,look at those pine trees,look someones camping,and didnt casey tell tony on the 16th that casey was at disney,or was that later. http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jeff_lange/archive/2006/04/12/1813.aspx hotel on the lake,lots of nefarious spots her
My name on second life is Lucerne chau, and I am also cluelss as to where to go with this just as Autumn is in post 185. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
i didnt mean to post that twice.and here not her.
thats is two differnt links there,part one and part two.
oh and to qualify as having a real women”s body /hourglass figure —10—-inches ratio bust/hip:waist …thats from wikipedia,i know you guys are all rolling your eyes at me.
Maura #189
BINGO, AGAIN (and BEYOND).
You never cease to amaze. Incredible compilation.
I have a question for you, which I would never have thought about had you not provided this information.
The Cindy “hot flash” excerpt–
When was that email sent?
You said it was sent on the morning of July 16th. Can you tell for certain that this was the date?? Was that a typo? (you are far less likely than I to have a typo in your posts– I am a slave to the backspace key) And if not–and that is, in fact, an accurate date SENT, it says a LOT more than I thought the first time I read that except a few months ago.
*****
For everyone else:
Maura knew precisely which LE interview I was referring to, (what a shock;)
But for others who are not certain about the background of what we are discussing, check out Cindy Anthony’s 8/4/08 interview with Detective Edwards: (which, btw, commenced with a typical Cindy attempt to intimidate, such as taking a call from FBI, referring to Special Agent as “Honey”, and then immediately after ending that phone call, CURSING at OCSO detective:
9. A. No one’s doing a fucking thing!
10. Q. What you need?
11. A. I need someone to pay attention to Caylee that’s missing. I need
12. someone to actually follow up on someone that has called in.
13. Q. Was that the FBI you were just talking to?
14. A. Yeah the….
15. Q. (Inaudible) out of state.
16. A. This is a Georgia tip that came in…
17. Q. Here. Let me see it.
18. (DETECTIVE HUSSEY)
19. Q. That’s not the one from Camden County is it, from uh, on, on uh, I-95
20. at the uh, exit 1?
21. A. I don’t know what exit and um, she called her local authorities, she,
22. this is the one that was at the restaurant.
23. (DETECTIVE EDWARDS)
24. Q. This is the one Yu, Yuri discussed the other day.
25. A. Yeah.
…..
Now, with that beginning of the interview in mind–
Here are some select excerpts which stuck out like a sore thumb to me a long time ago regarding Cindy Anthony’s CONCERN about LE being able to SEE her text messages with Casey during the famous “30 days” (and which Maura obviously also noted, hence the compilation set forth in her post):
……
3. Q. Okay.
4. A. Are we recording today?
5. Q. Yeah.
6. A. And again no sleep, no food, so…. [So if I screw up, I am providing an EXCUSE right now]
7. Q. Okay.
8. A. ….I’m trying to remember best I can, I can’t say for facts that
9. everything I say is (laughter) 100%, it’s to the best of my knowledge.
…….
1. Q. Yeah. Same, same reason. Nothing other than, now you said there
2. was a lot of communication over the phone during all this because
3. you were, you know, asking about the child…
4. A. Uh huh (Affirmative).
…..
19. Q. You talk to her almost every day here you think?
20. A. Yeah at some point. I know she started texting me a lot more in June
21. and July. If I had you know access to what those were I could
22. remember conversations that we had that was (inaudible).
23. Q. Does your phone archive that?
24. A. I don’t know.
25. Q. Do you want us to see if we can flip that information out of that?
1. A. I DON’T, I DON’T KNOW IF IT ARCHIVES OR NOT. I MEAN…I
2. Q. Well the techs are here, I mean if we, if you want us to look um, we
3. can take advantage of that time.
4. A. Yeah I mean I think it might jog some of the things that I might
5. remember.
6. (DETECTIVE HUSSEY)
7. Q. Sure.
8. (DETECTIVE EDWARDS)
9. Q. Let me walk that down there real quick if you don’t mind.
10. A. Okay.
11. Q. Then while we’re in here doing that they can be, if they, did you
12. notice if Stenger’s door was open?
13. (DETECTIVE HUSSEY)
14. Q. I did not. Want me to go check?
15. A. HOW LONG DOES THAT TAKE? [really?? time matters if the information could help save Caylee's life???]
16. (DETECTIVE EDWARDS)
17. Q. Um yeah.
18. (DETECIVE HUSSEY)
19. Q. I’ll take the phone.
20. (DETECTIVE EDWARDS)
21. Q. It should, just ask him how long he thinks. That might, they might not
22. even have that model in the hardware.
23. A. WELL I NEED MY PHONE BACK, I DON’T WANT…
24. (DETECTIVE HUSSEY)
25. Q. (Inaudible), we’ll bring it right back.
1. A. WELL….
2. (DETECTIVE EDWARDS)
3. Q. (Inaudible).
4. A. JUST LIKE MY COMPUTER AND MY (laughter) EVERYTHING… [BINGO, MAURA]
5. Q. You’ll have it back shortly. I just, if we can get those uh, text
6. messages um, and extend that curiosity to you.
7. A. WELL I THOUGHT YOU GUYS HAD CASEY’S TEXT MESSAGES. [From where? the SIM card that she switched/lost/???]
8. Q. We have a great deal of them [from OTHER sources like her carrier and her friends' cell phones] yeah but the ones….
9. A. I was gonna say, I mean if you had specifically….
10. Q. This week…
11. A. …from here through June I can certainly tell you what we were talking
12. about and what, my phone, because they would be related to any
13. phone conversations that might not show up. CAUSE YOU CAN’T, YOU DON’T HAVE ACCESS TO PHONE CONVERSATIONS, RIGHT? JUST RECORDS? [this line hit my trip wire--this is where Cindy reveals that she is concerned about them seeing communications between her and Casey during the "30 days"]
15. Q. If, if we had, right. Well the…
16. A. I MEAN, DON’T YOU JUST HAVE THE DIALED NUMBERS? [trip wire on HIGH alert now]
17. Q. There’s also some issues with text. We don’t necessarily when we
18. do subpoenas get the text. They don’t you know unless that saved
19. somewhere. So most of the luck we’re having, like let’s say Amy’s
20. phone for instance, we were, the luck that we had the there was
21. some way some how her phone saved 2800.
22. A. WOW. [HOLY S**T, is what she probably meant]
23. Q. Text messages. I didn’t know you can communicate with that many
24. people that often without you know actually calling them. But um,
25. maybe, if they have luck with that today…
1. A. Yeah.
2. Q. …maybe if you go through that it’ll spark your memory.
3. A. I have rarely texted before cause I don’t have one, I didn’t have text
4. messaging on my phone number one bill. But I noticed that Casey
5. started texting me more because it seemed like she was having a
6. hard time explaining things to me when I’d ask her about Caylee. So
7. it seems like it, she would cut me off and be more short and, and use
8. the text. So I mean that, that was more in June and July. Like I said I
9. hardly ever used my text before and I text Lee now and stuff but.
10. Q. So it was harder for her to make up locations the child might
11. be?
12. A. I don’t know, I’m not saying that I’m just, I don’t know. It just seemed
13. like it was more evident, I mean June and July I was getting more
14. texting from her and less actual phone conversations with her.
******
Anyway- Cindy’s “helpfulness” was suspect in many ways during LE interviews, but this one caught my eye regarding her obvious concern that txt msgs/other similar msgs (emails, posts, for instance) could be discovered at this date.
If you go back and read Maura’s post, you will see how there is actually forensic evidence of it.
******
Forgive me if I am not being clear.
It’s been a long day–I FLEW thru the Anthony House on SECOND LIFE–/long night–am just back from a dinner out,which involved more than an ample supply of wine.
Sweet Dreams to All
Silver-
Vino is Keeno, I always say-
To your point, I “hone” in on the call Cindy took from Scott Bolin. Who can think that was not planned? It was an exercise for obvious asessment purposes. Not to be glib, but the joke was on her.. It’s in the DNA
B
OK– I need some sleep!!
Not a typo on your part, Maura–
just a late night for me.
But as you keenly point out, Cindy was in major stonewalling mode early on.
(i hope this gets posted before you have to bother explaining/before everyone else has to wonder what the H is going on)
WAIT. Hold the phone.
Maura–
When do you surmise that email (containing the hot flash/not sure who to believe about someone having been in the house, etc) was sent??
Am I reading your post correctly, or ?? (you have far more expertise than I about the computer forensics)
OK.
I am going to get some sleep before I lose it.
How do I get invited to “virtual juror” on Second Life?
Thanks - Kathy
Blink - where’s my post asking Maura about the email with Cindy? Did I say something wrong?
Maura meant the 15th not the 16. I was going to ask her about it - but I see she had the revised date later in her post.
Gosh Blink - sometimes its so cryptic - and I’m not the dullest bulb on the christmas tree. But I feel left out and don’t get it.
Lily, what can I help you with, friend?
B
I meant to reference comment #204
Sorry. Yes, this:
“very early morning of Tuesday, July 16, less than 24 hours before Cindy called 911″
Should have been:
“very early morning of Tuesday, July 15, less than 24 hours before Cindy called 911.”
As I wrote elsewhere in that comment:
“As noted, there is no date for the Yahoo email fragment, but there’s enough information in the fragment to date it with confidence to the early morning hours of July 15 (about twelve hours before they got the car from Johnson’s).
On Monday, July 14, the local Orlando channels (WFTV, WESH, etc.) were reporting the sale of Anheuser-Busch and the impact of the sale on central Florida theme parks. The “can’t sleep” reference in the email fragment must mean the email was being written very late on July 14 or in the early morning hours of July 15. Cindy left a message on Casey’s MySpace page at 12:13am on July 15 (message unknown), so she likely sent the Yahoo email around the same time.”
***
Sorry for the confusion! That was the worst possible thing to err on in that post.
In the comment, I was referring to Casey’s stonewalling (of Cindy), but Cindy was certainly telling “untruths” very early in the investigation, and IMO, she was attempting to get rid of any written evidence that could contradict the version of events she was feeding LE (mainly in saying Casey’s excuses were reasonable to her and she didn’t see any red flags).
She was terribly sneaky in that August 4 interview in pretending not to know that her phone archived messages. How would explain why so few text messages were archived on her phone, all having been sent in the two days prior to the download? What happened to all the text messages sent to her before August 2?
***
The following HP usage details were lifted from JWG’s March computer forensics comments on WS.
JWG noticed the HP internet temporary file history before June 27 had been deleted as was the history from July 2-9.
July 15 into July 16 HP Temporary Files and other events:
Cindy made the first 911 call at 8:08pm to OPD when she and Casey were at the closed OPD neighborhood substation. Cindy was told to go home first with Casey and then call OCSO for a deputy.
When Cindy arrived at the Anthony house with Casey, Lee was there, having been called by George and asked to go home. Lee talked to Casey per his statement and tried to get her to say exactly where Caylee was.
Cindy lost patience and made the second 911 call of the night and first 911 call to OCSO at 8:44pm.
There was no HP desktop activity on July 15 until 8:47 PM, when about 40 seconds of AIM activity occurred. JWG’s belief is this is when the computer was powered on, and AIM automatically launched. Nothing happened for 1 1/2 hours until around 10:15pm. Either Lee or Casey would likely have powered on the HP since Cindy was talking to OCSO at 8:47pm (unless Cindy was on her cell phone and multitasking). But Lee said he had gone into the living room, so Casey may have booted up the desktop since her room is next to the guest room where the HP is set up. (Source: JWG)
Cindy made her third (frantic) 911 call at 9:41pm. George came home around 9:43pm (he’s on the 911 tape), and responding deputies arrived at the end of the 4 minute, 29 second call (so around 9:46pm). Deputies Ryan Eberlin and Adriana Acevedo were apparently the first responders (their signatures are at the bottom of the written statements provided by George, Cindy, Lee, and Casey).
Lee testified that the deputies separated Cindy and George from Lee and Casey. He said he and Casey waited in the garage while Cindy and George were being interviewed inside the house. Lee said he and Casey could hear everything being said.
10:11pm – Time stamp on OCSO statement for Cindy (Adriana Acevedo signed it).
10:16pm – Time stamp on OCSO statements for George (Adriana Acevedo signed it).
10:16pm – Time stamp on OCSO statements for Lee (Ryan Eberlin signed it).
At 10:15pm, activity on the HP resumed. Per JWG, for the next five minutes it appears there were repeated attempts to log into KC’s ATT wireless account, culminating in a visit to the “lost password” page to presumably have a new password sent to her email account. A successful login to Yahoo may have occurred at this time. Given that Casey had told 911 she received a call from Caylee around noon but did not have her phone with her, she may have been at the computer with a deputy and conveniently “forgot” her password, so the records could not be retrieved for OCSO. (Source: JWG)
10:30pm – HP activity resumed after a 10-minute lull. An attempt is made to either register with or log into an existing “Lava Life” account. This lasted for about a minute (JWG thinks Lee was looking at the internet history). Attempts were then made to log into Facebook (unsuccessfully). (Source: JWG)
10:43pm - a successful attempt to log into Casey’s MySpace is made (MySpace Page ID #10472558). For the next 10 minutes comments and inbox messages are viewed. (Source: JWG)
10:57pm - a successful attempt to log into Facebook is made, although the account is not clear from the file path. Numerous photos are viewed for the next 3 minutes. Activity stops. (Source: JWG)
11:00pm – an OCSO deputy left for Tony Lazzaro’s to get her cell phone. Tony said it was a male deputy, and Deputy Ryan Eberlin’s report indicates that Deputy Ryan Williams was sent to Tony Lazzaro’s apartment to search the residence and get Casey’s cell phone.
**Around the same time, Deputy Corporal Rendon Fletcher was sent to Sawgrass to check with the night management and learned that the apartment Casey mentioned had been vacant for months and that none of the names provided by Casey were on the lease.
11:15pm - a return to Facebook with what appears to be a single upload. (Source: JWG)
11:19pm - a second attempt to login to the ATT wireless account. (Source: JWG)
11:23-11:35pm - a rapid-fire mixture of MySpace and Photobucket views. On Photobucket, it is images. On MySpace, it is images and messages. (Source: JWG)
11:35-11:50pm - many, many views of Facebook photos after what appears to be a successful login. (Source: JWG)
11:55pm – OCSO deputy Ryan Williams returned from Tony’s with Casey’s phone and began calling through Casey’s contact list. (Source: JWG)
July 16, shortly after midnight, Lee left for Tony’s to collect Casey’s things.
12:45am – Yuri Melich was called by Sgt. Reggie Hosey and notified of a missing child case. I don’t know if Hosey was at the Anthony house or had been called by a deputy at the residence.
1:05am - Time stamp on Casey’s OCSO statement (Ryan Eberlin signed it).
1:40am – HP computer appears to reboot (this is JWG’s wording, and it’s unclear to me whether the HP had been shut down earlier or if the HP powered down automatically due to lack of activity or what). If the reboot was manual, it could NOT have been Lee. (Source: JWG)
2:25am - Lee returned to the Anthony home and dumped Casey’s belongings on the living room floor. He and Cindy went through Casey’s things while a deputy walked in and out of the room. Lee said it was a female deputy, so unless additional LEO’s had responded, it was Adriana Acevedo.
2:32am - successful login to Yahoo mail. Activity stops at 2:34 (possibly after seeing no email exists). This could have been Lee because we know he checked her Yahoo account, but if he’s going through Casey’s things, it’s someone else. Perhaps he checked the Yahoo account before dumping Casey’s things out. (Source: JWG)
3:30am, Yuri Melich arrives per his July 22 bond hearing testimony.
4:11am – Time stamp at the start of Casey’s recorded interviewed by Yuri Melich at the Anthony house (they had a conversation prior to the recorded interview). The interview lasts about 20 minutes.
4:30-5:00am – Casey and Detective Melich went on a tour of ZG’s last three residences in Orlando. This was Casey’s second tour since midnight according to the reports, but there is no information in the reports released to day regarding what time the first tour took place. Melich noted in a search warrant that they drove to Sawgrass and Casey took Melich to the same stairwell she had pointed out to deputies earlier that night.
At 5:09am - the HP computer is powered up, but no real activity until 5:18 when the MSN website is brought up. One of the very first things done here is to go to the white pages search off this site and enter “aida” as a first name and “Fernandez-Gonzalez” as the last name. Someone searches referral sites USsearch.com and Reunion.com for ZFG. (Source: JWG)
Activity is very sparse from about 5:25am to 1:40pm. (Source: JWG)
6:30-11:30am - There is nothing in the discovery to indicate whether any LEOs were still at the Anthony house, but my gut says they had all left the house by the time Casey was dropped off at 6:30am. No charges had been filed, her cell phone had been returned to her, she was with her parents (who had called 911), and the detectives were investigating her story.
6:48am – Casey sent a text to Tony saying she had just returned home from the drive-around. They exchanged text messages until around 7:30, then she called and talked to him until 8:03am.
8:00-11:30am – Cindy testified that she and Casey worked in the morning on sending text messages to Casey’s friends. In her 11pm jail call to the Anthony home later that night, Casey told Kristina Chester that she had created the Help Find Caylee/Caylee is Missing MySpace page earlier in the day. This would have been the site that had been Casey’s Kayseeomaree MySpace. Casey sent text messages to friends around 10am telling them Caylee had been missing for 32 days and to contact her with information.
11:30am - Casey received a call from OCSO (Yuri) asking her if she would agree to meet the detectives at Universal to show them her office; she called back immediately, spoke for 5.5 minutes to Detective Melich on speakerphone. Yuri Melich was at Universal Studios with Universal Investigator Leonard Turtora. Turtora had checked the databases and determined that Casey Anthony had not worked at Universal Studios since 2006. On speakerphone, Casey confirmed that she had a job at Universal as an event planner and gave Melich the name of a boss who did not work there according to Turtora and an office extension number that did not exist according to Turtora. Casey was unable to provide the building number or location of her office. When Detective Melich asked if she had her current work identification card, she said she didn’t know where it was. She agreed to meet detectives at Universal to show them her office.
11:52am - George’s Epass records showed he was on the road (Beline then airport then Goldenrod, the same tolls he had taken to go to his shift at the Premier Theater the night before). Did he go to work?
12:30pm – Casey was picked up at the Anthony house by John Allen and Appie Wells and taken to Universal. She would not return to the Anthony house until August 21. IMO it is likely that only Cindy and Lee were in the Anthony house after Casey was picked up.
From 1:40pm to 2:00pm or so there are multiple HP searches on multiple sites for combinations of “Cheryl Davis” “East Coast Universal” and “Battle of the Bands” - all of which were names and phrases from Casey’s “work” emails that she had given to Cindy. (Source: JWG)
After a brief pause of 20 minutes or so, work began on the Caylee is Missing MySpace page. (Source: JWG)
2:43pm and 2:51pm – searches are conducted for missing children’s websites. JWG believes the searches were conducted by Lee (looking for information/layout ideas) as he worked on the Caylee is Missing/Help Find Caylee website.
***
It could have been one of the LEOs in the house looking at MySpace and Facebook pages who saw the My Caylee is Missing and Diary of Days entries. The date at the bottom of those screen shots in the discovery is July 16, but I cannot see that there were any MySpace searches after midnight on the HP. My guess is either the LEO who saw those pages called someone at OCSD and the pages were printed from a location outside the Anthony house soon after the LEO saw them or the pages were printed on the evening of July 16 when the laptop was being searched.
As noted upthread, there is no time-stamp on the pages in discovery, and there is nothing in the discovery to indicate when Cindy’s My Caylee is Missing post was deleted. That post was found in the HP’s unallocated space, which means it was probably a deleted file. The HP was picked up at noon on July 17. If I knew what time on July 16 the screen shot of Cindy’s MySpace was printed, I’d have a better idea of when Cindy was on the HP deleting stuff.
Thanks Maura, excellent presentation of complicated data. Boggles my mind still.
B
Blink
I tried sending you and email and it was bounced.
We all think that the defense and (maybe the state) read here. (Sometimes I think they post too. IMO only).
Are you concerned about them going to SL, or do you guys basically not care? I guess it wouldn’t make a difference.
I would like to go back on the site, but I have some serious computer memory drain, so I’m not sure that I will.
Silver & Maura
Your last posts were a bit spine chilling. Good work.
hmm, maybe server glitch? Dunno, but I am prob 100 emails behind sadly. No, we are not concerned at all, they have the same info we do. Both sides read here, how do you think Ms. Burdick found out about Tony Padilla’s bogus agreement presented by Baez? It is buried in a return comment of mine weeks ago.
B
I wonder if anyone witnessed this break down at work.
And what of the rumored boyfriend from work? Whose testimony did we learn that from? Was it the PI or the neighbor, or just rumor. Maybe it was a posting under Larry King’s blog, anyone?
It seems that an interview with him could reveal a lot of background on the family leading up to Caylee’s death. And if she was still close to him and if he still worked there during the 30 plus days and counting, he could possibly reveal a more honest appraisal of what Cindy was going through while Caylee was missing vs her TV interviews where she states she had no concern or red flags.
Blink, I’m copying Angela’s post to this thread , since so many people ask question about SL:
Comment by Angela Talamasca — August 19, 2009 @ 12:38 pm
Hi all, I have created a section on our VR Hacks forum (see http://forum.vrhacks.net) to help with second life particulars and provide a centralized place to discuss/follow the crime scene recreation developments.
Please be sure to check out the “tutorial” section under the “virtual juror” category for instructions on how to create your accounts.
Once your accounts are ready, you can IM me “in-world” (just do a ctrl+f for find and select the people tab, and search for “Angela Talamasca”) and/or IM me from your forum account.
Please be sure to let me know you’re a Blink follower and wish to be added to the virtual juror group. At which point I will add you to both the forum and second life virtual juror group.
And finally, once you’re in, feel free to discuss the crime scene builds in the virtual juror group chat and/or under the caylee anthony section in the virtual juror forum.
I will add a poll for what to do with the 3rd platform later today.
Other questions? Please feel free to contact me in-world or via the forum.
Sorry for all the typos and misuse of words, I haven’t had coffee.
Blink, in your honest opinion, do you think that Casey will eventually confess and provide the details of her actions, either before, during, or after the state presents every piece of evidence that points to none other than her?
Nope. I have answered this in detail several times previously. She is going to finger one or both of her parents who will plead the fifth as a result and she will end up with a death sentence because her smarmy lawyer is no different than a talent agent. They will all get their cut and she will rot in the pokey.
B
Blink
If Lyons is unsuccessful in getting the death penalty off the table, do you think that she would recommend to Casey that she seek a plea deal? (I’m not saying Casey would take it) Or is the path already set in stone; meaning Lyons was signed on to the case, as opposed to her DP predecessor, because she would take the case all the way through and not look for a plea? (Not that the state is offering one either).
Silver
Are you familiar with many cases where attorneys attempt to remove the death penalty option before a case is tried? If so, how many are successful? It seems unusual to me. Is she pushing to have the state reveal everything (theories, etc) that they have before trial? My understanding was that the laws would determine whether the death penalty could be considered. Doesn’t this have to do with the homicide of a child in combination with the negligence charge? How does Lyons get past that? Is it likely that Strickland would remove the death penalty?
She will not be, imo, it is all for not. I have no concerns in that regard whatsoever. Trying to make this a legislative endeavor, when it is a case involving the murder of a toddler, is going to backfire
BB
Maura
THANK YOU. It’s so much easier to get the full scope of what was transpiring when you put all the info together like that!
Silver
What happens now if an original copy of that contract never makes its way to the state? How can they submit anything to the bar without proof?
Can T Padilla’s statements alone be reason and cause to make a complaint?
Does anybody know exactly where the dogs hit in the Anthony’s back yard? The cones in the picture indicate only one area. I was under the impression that they hit on three different locations. If anyone has this information, or can post a link to it, I would appreciate it. I have been searching, but am only finding people’s opinions, not the real evidence. Thank you
Does LE know how to handle George and Cindy, meaning they are aware of the lies, deceit, etc? I wish they would stop codling these cons and start playing hardball, not accepting anything less than absolute truth and cooperation
#223Todd
I think all involved are handling them quite well. You know the old adage “Give ‘em enough rope”….
What happens to Cindy & George later will depend very much on the honesty of their testimony in court. Everyone is basically awaiting for that.
awaiting that…not for that..
#222 mjh-I didn’t find any official reports. All I could find was Cindy’s statements to “On the Record”
VAN SUSTEREN: Continuing now with missing Caylee Anthony’s grandparents, and for the first time, you will see the back yard that crime scene investigators dug up looking for evidence after Caylee vanished.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CINDY ANTHONY: I was told that the dog was inconsistent on a hit here and…
VAN SUSTEREN: Here being right here at the house?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes. And inconsistent where her sandbox was.
VAN SUSTEREN: Which is where?
CINDY ANTHONY: Where it’s at now, roughly.
VAN SUSTEREN: Oh, is this the sandbox?
CINDY ANTHONY: That’s the sandbox.
VAN SUSTEREN: That has a cover on it. OK.
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.
VAN SUSTEREN: So there was — there was an inconsistent alert here.
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, an inconsistent alert over in the corner of the house.
VAN SUSTEREN: Meaning over behind — near the pool?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.
VAN SUSTEREN: Now, so they never had, as you understand it, an alert. They rather had an inconsistent one.
CINDY ANTHONY: They had an inconsistent alert, so that’s why they explained to us why the brought the second cadaver dog in. The second dog did not alert in the same spots that they did.
VAN SUSTEREN: Did not?
CINDY ANTHONY: Did not.
VAN SUSTEREN: Did not. All right. Did…
CINDY ANTHONY: And there was nothing that they found that had any — you know, that they came up with any evidence.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,398490,00.html
were, not was…uuh
2 part video “On the record” from august 2008
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=2963775&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,398490,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=2963763&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,398490,00.html
I wonder how “devoted” George and Cindy will be when things go array and Casey points to them as the culprits?
There is a MUST SEE post by Maura on the last thread # 691. It is truly awesome, (and I mean that in the true sense, not the way that it has become a catch phrase and tossed about indiscriminately)
Blink, I’m confused… Earlier you stayed you didn’t think this case would make it to trial, but now you think she will blame her parents, etc at trial. Have you changed your thoughts on this? I probably misunderstood something along the way!
No KTINA, your correct, my opinion was based on IF this goes to trial, which I still say will not.
B
#204, 205, 206 silver…..Would you give that scenario more than Five Fishy’s, say 8 Fishy’s and 2 dam dirty ape’s perhaps? Yep, me too. LOL
Maura-
THANK YOU. (for the clarification, AND for the very telling additional analysis)
Agreed- Casey was stonewalling Cindy (which will not bode well for any plan to blame Cindy for the crime, if that is, indeed, the plan).
However, Cindy was stonewalling LE (which does bode well for any plan to blame Cindy for the crime, if that is, indeed, the plan).
So Tuesday, July 15th, (early morning hrs) Cindy sends that email excerpt, questioning whether Casey was in the house that day, on Monday, July 14th, between the hours of 9am-6:30pm (George’s work shift). Instead of just confronting Casey with that directly, she says she doesn’t know who to believe anymore. But what this shows is that she had, at the very least, reason to suspect that Casey was in ORLANDO, and NOT in Jacksonville.
Now, when you take that knowledge, and you read through all of her statements to LE (OCSO/FBI) about where she believed or had reason to believe Casey was, you can rate her level of deception (because not once did she mention any suspicion about where Casey was vs. where Casey SAID she was).
Here it is, from the same 8/4/08 Interview:
A. And all this week they were always doing something. They were either out on the boat, going swimming, there was times that she told me she was at Target with Jeff going shopping. That um, Caylee and Zack [Jeffrey Hopkins] were, Zack is Jeff’s son, was staying with, or his mom was watch, babysitting them and things like that. And that’s why whenever I called Caylee wasn’t with Casey to put Caylee on the phone. So there was always a reason. So. And then I can’t remember why, on the 14th what excuse she had on the 14th why they weren’t coming home. I ONLY REMEMBER TALKING, I KNOW I TALKED TO HER ON THE 14TH, but I have no idea because from here on out you know is… Q. Uh huh (Affirmative). A. …when everything went down. I MEAN I KNOW I SPOKE WITH HER ON THE 14TH, BUT I CAN’T REMEMBER. IT WASN’T ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT.
Q. And so they stayed in Jacksonville this whole week here too you think?
A. THAT’S WHAT SHE SAID. IN FACT, I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION SHE WAS IN JACKSONVILLE THE DAY WE FOUND THE CAR. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT. SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN JACKSONVILLE.
Right. Nothing “significant” happened on the 14th. And right. She was in Jacksonville.
And notice- she claims that she actually spoke with Casey on the 14th, which is clearly contradicted by that email (where she expresses disappointment that Casey called the house during Cindy’s work hrs, i.e when she knew that Cindy was not home).
This is but one example (of almost too many to count) of Cindy Anthony’s intentional deception vis-a-vis OCSO (all the while CURSING at them, accusing THEM of not doing their jobs).
On a scale of 1 to 10, this scores a “perfect 10″ (and not the fake “Zanny” kind) of just how intentionally deceptive, because it is so recent/so close to the time she reported Caylee as “missing”.
Do we have ping info for 7/14/08-7/15/08?
Was Casey hitting the towers that cover Hopespring during that day? She must have taken or disturbed something such that Cindy suspected her of having been there during those hours.
Tuesday, 7/15/08 at approximately 9-9:30, Chris Stutz says he believes he saw Casey running on Chickasaw. If it was the 15th, after she got that email from Cindy, she was nervous that Cindy was catching on, and likely went back to check on the body/ went for a “run”/”jog”, because it would have been too risky to park Amy’s car by the dump site. If this was, in fact, Casey, it was likely closer to 9am, since there is forensic evidence of email activity between Casey and Mark Hawkins around 10:15a.m.
We only have a fragment of Cindy’s email, correct?
If Casey was back over there on the 15th, perhaps checking on the dump site, my guess is that something else in that email from Cindy provoked her to do so. Not that we will ever know what that was if that portion of the email was not recovered. (But perhaps it was, and we are not privy to it at this point).
#204 silver just to elaborate on my last post, we have a local radio station that reviews movies on a damm dirty ape system. 5 damm dirty ape’s being very very poor on performance and plot.
westsidehudson #219
It is not unusual in the least for defense counsel to file a Motion to Bar the State (or, here in PA, the “Commonwealth”) from Seeking the Death Penalty.
Remember, this is the “ultimate” penalty which can be imposed. If there is ANY basis upon which to challenge the Death Notice, it should/must –as a matter of professional obligation/duty to the client–be raised.
Failure to do so can result in reversal on appeal for “ineffective assistance of counsel”, among other things.
Counsel for the defendant must assert all legal challenges –both State and Federal– that can be lodged.
Here is the Florida statute governing the Death Sentence for Capital Felonies.
How, on earth, will Lyon get around the Aggravating Circumstance set forth in 921.141 (5)(l): The victim of the capital felony was a person less than 12 years of age.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/STATUTES/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0921/Sec141.HTM
#226 WSH your link didn’t work for me but if memory serves, that interview took place on 8/6/08 correct? Interesting to note that on 8/5/08 there was a tip and a cadaver dog search near the school and b) there was a 3rd search on the anthony home on 8/6/08. Hmmmmm.
silverspnr makes a good point about why it’s critical and necessary for the defense to challenge the DP decision, and to make extra sure the state has its facts straight when going after this most irreversible of punishments. Saw this disturbing article the other day:
After Texas inmate is executed, review finds there may have been no crime at all
By STEVE MILLS
Chicago Tribune
In a withering critique, a nationally known fire scientist has told a state commission on forensics that Texas fire investigators had no basis to rule that a deadly house fire was arson — a finding that led to the murder conviction and execution of Cameron Todd Willingham.
snip
The report concludes there was no evidence to determine that the December 1991 fire was even set, and it leaves open the possibility that the blaze, which killed three children, was an accident and that there was no crime at all — the same results found in a Chicago Tribune investigation of the case published in December 2004.
snip
Willingham, the father of those children, was executed by lethal injection in February 2004. He protested his innocence to the end.
snip
Among Beyler’s key findings: that investigators failed to examine all the electrical outlets and appliances in the Willingham house in Corsicana, did not consider other potential causes for the fire, came to conclusions that contradicted the witnesses at the scene, and wrongly concluded that Willingham’s injuries could not have been caused as he said they were.
much more at link http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1561425.html
westsidehudson #221
It doesn’t appear that anyone (perhaps other than Baez) ever held the original contract, or a copy of same.
The fact that a party to the contract has asserted a claim that the true agreement was not properly memorialized, and that Baez attached, as an exhibit to a Motion filed with the court, an allegedly altered version of the real agreement, is sufficient for a party to the contract to file a grievance complaint.
The authority to file a Formal Complaint in a disciplinary proceeding against Baez rests with the Florida Bar, who shall not do so unless there is first a finding that probable cause exists to believe that he is guilty of conduct justifying disciplinary action, etc (there are a host of other bases upon which the Florida Bar may file a Formal Complaint).
Each judicial circuit in the State of Florida has at least one grievance committee. Each grievance committee has at least 3 members, one of whom is a non-attorney. All attorneys who sit on grievance committees must have at least 5 yrs of membership of the Florida Bar.
VIOLATION OF THE RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT as adopted by the Rules governing the Florida Bar IS A CAUSE FOR DISCIPLINE.
The commission by a lawyer of any act that is unlawful OR CONTRARY TO HONESTY AND JUSTICE…may constitute a cause for discipline.
There are several disciplinary measures that may be imposed after a finding of misconduct, including admonishments (only applies to minor misconduct), probation, (can include monitoring of the lawyer’s work, in whole or in part; supervision over fees and trust accounts; completion of practice and professionalism enhancement program, etc, etc), public reprimand, suspension, and disbarment.
The Florida Rules of Professional Conduct at play here are:
Rule 4-3.3 CANDOR TOWARD THE TRIBUNAL, particularly subsection (a)False Evidence; Duty to Disclose
Rule 4-3.4 FAIRNESS TO OPPOSING PARTY AND COUNSEL
I encourage anyone who is interested to read these Rules, including the Comments to the Rules.
http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBResources.nsf/Attachments/0A266C6138C4A15685256B29004BD617/$FILE/RRTFB%20CHAPTER%204.pdf?OpenElement
boo #234
thanks for the clarification=) i will go along with your 8 fishys and 2 dam dirty apes per #232–lol!
WSH & MJH - I heard when we were in Second Life a couple of days ago that they were going to put the ‘cone markers’ in the 5 spots where the dogs hit in the backyard. I believe I saw a description of where those were somewhere too. I will look today to see if I can find it.
Silverspnr, you mentioned Cindy’s story of Casey’s story of ‘going on a boat’. Cindy was concerned always about Casey following all these safety measures, even to the point of locking the shed and not just putting the key out of Caylee’s reach, but out of Casey’s reach too, by hiding it’s location from her. (and surely she did not know where the key was when she had to break into the shed, unless this was some plot to use Tony, or keep that option open if needed in the future– ie: if he backed out on their relationship perhaps).
All that ’safety’ and all the ‘pool safety’– ladder, ‘how to’ enter the pool with baby, the swimmies and or floatie ’swim aids’ for a toddler learning to float and swim while IMMEDIATELY SUPERVISED by ADULTS. None of the ‘pool gear’ that we’ve seen (and maybe the US has lax laws regulating ‘life-jackets’ or other ‘floatation devices’– but I doubt it) would be classified as a ‘life-jacket’ or ‘regulation floatation device’ that would be approved (in Canada anyway) for use on a child ‘in a boat’.
The Anthony’s did not, apparently own a boat, nor was there any discussion about the family going ‘boating’, or ownership of a ‘real’ life-jacket vs what amount to ‘pool toys’ that would be useless in a boat, should an accident occur in a boat, on an inland waterway or on the open ocean. A growing child needs an approved life-vest that 1. ‘fits’, 2. is approved by (federal, coast guard?), 3. that is in good condition to do what it’s designed to do, etc., so that the will keep that child safely afloat in an upright position to breathe until rescue, even if the child is not conscious, and even in rough seas.
I can’t believe that Cindy would not question Casey about the safety ‘gear’ that Casey would use for Caylee– IF you are ‘borrowing’ something, what are the chances it will be a proper fit, and what condition is it in– is it compromised in ANY way. Is it too big, and would Casey even know, or just make assumptions based on what was available to ‘meet regulations’, just use something that happened to be in the boat.
Cindy likely talked to Jeff more than we know– the ‘real’ Jeff. Maybe she was trying to figure how if Casey was telling her the truth by asking questions to which she already knew the answer to (”are you still staying with Jeff?’ and prodding the ‘are you working’ idea with questions about the corporate moves of the big theme park companies, including ‘Universal’. Cindy could be judging quality of ‘truth’ from Casey by her answers. We don’t know the answers given to Cindy, if any.
No proper, dedicated ‘life-jacket’ for a 2 year old toddler being taken ‘in a boat’ (where there would certainly be beer– even if Casey was never one to take a drink, what about the boat operator?) is a huge thing for these grandparents to be concerned about when they do not even trust their daughter to have a key to their garden shed.
George had to have resources to find Casey, he could have gone to Casey’s friends, Lee knew Jesse and Casey were ‘keeping up’ with each other, George didn’t like Jesse, but he must have known that Jesse cared for the baby and her safety if she was off somewhere with Casey and he could have been recruited to help via texting and email etc. If that didn’t work, George could have asked for help somewhere, from someone, even his security friends– keep an eye out for this licence and car, minimally.
One more thing, would the Anthony’s server have been set to delete emails IMMEDIATELY upon download of individual messages, or would they have set it to save copies on the server for a period of days before deletion? (presumably there was a limit to the space on their ISP server, so they couldn’t just keep everything forever without getting a ‘full’ mailbox and they did use the server a LOT it seems).
If the messages were kept for a period of time, there may have been messages on the ISP server. Would there be any way for the FBI resources, etc, to obtain the server’s records, even deleted copies? Is that possible or practical? IE: would the unallocated spaces be easily searched for a computer’s ISP, or ‘possibly’ searched if the reason were serious enough?
#231
OK Blink on your statement:
“No KTINA, your correct, my opinion was based on IF this goes to trial, which I still say will not. B”
what is your best guestament as to and end to this nightmare? I would love to have seen and end to this YESTERDAY!!!! what will finaly bring and end to this?
woud love your thouhts, sorry if I missed it in prior postings.
thanks!
Good Lord!!! Thanks for the heads up, Mariann! I’ll be making sure I’m wearing clean underwear without any holes before I get anywhere near Second Life!!! What happened to the good ole days when you could sit around blogging in a frumpy old bathrobe and slippers?
I am going to echo what WSH said about Maura’s post #691 on the previous Anthony thread. It is a MUST READ - she apologizes for it being long - I say none of Maura’s posts are too long.
Maura - I don’t know who you are or what you do but I hope you make a living (a good one) doing something that uses your awesome skills. You should be on the payroll at OSCO.
#218
Blink, your post on 218 states the following
“Nope. I have answered this in detail several times previously. She is going to finger one or both of her parents who will plead the fifth as a result and she will end up with a death sentence because her smarmy lawyer is no different than a talent agent. They will all get their cut and she will rot in the pokey. B”
finger her parents, plea (not going to trial, my 236 post)?
my question will she plea and this not go to trial? or, finger GA & CIN-A during trial????
confused????
thanks!
# 237
suz
If Lyons were to argue a case to enact legislative changes, in my opinion, it would be better if she focused on the one that you highlighted, or any other where it was proven that the sentenced was innocent. On a personal level, I couldn’t be a juror on a death penalty case, but I respect other people’s opinions, and don’t know how I would feel about the penalty if I had a family member that was murdered.
# 236-sorry boo, just google “Cindy Anthony “On the record”:, or the other way around. It will bring you to the transcript page, and the videos are on the left.
# 241- As usual, good common sense points Kleat.
# 240-Lily, When you are in Second life, will you please ask Angela if there is a way to “clear the cache” from that program. I would like to go back, but have had a drain on computer memory. I think that is why I get “frozen” and can’t move.
In the days just before Cindy’s 911 call, Casey was claiming to be in Jacksonville and said her car had been with Jeff’s mechanic until Thursday, July 10. She and Caylee were going to drive home on Friday, July 11, but then Jeff decided to drive to Orlando on Saturday, July 12 and wanted to follow Casey’s car to make sure she got home safely. Cindy told the FBI that on Friday, July 11, Cindy didn’t call Casey. Since Cindy didn’t call Casey, Casey called Cindy to ask why she hadn’t called. Cindy told Casey there was no point because Casey had told Cindy that Casey and Caylee were not going to be home on Friday, July 11 but were going to be home on Saturday, July 12. On July 12, Casey didn’t come home. Cindy was irritated, but Casey’s excuse was that Jeff’s mom wanted to take them out to breakfast and out on a boat.
Casey’s cell records and available text messages support the phone patterns Cindy described to the FBI.
Friday, July 11:
8:49pm Casey called the Anthony landline. This was their only telephonic communication of the day.
Saturday, July 12:
1:47pm Casey’s cell records show she “missed” a call from the Anthony landline
3:42pm Cindy sent text to Casey: “R u coming home 2day?”
4:45pm Cindy sent text to Casey (message unavailable on Casey’s text message records - possibly deleted?)
5:42pm Casey sent text to Cindy (no message available)
11:00pm Cindy sent text to Casey: (message unavailable on Casey’s text message records - possibly deleted?)
Sunday, July 13:
1:02am Casey sent text to Cindy (no message available)
1:02am Cindy sent text to Casey: “Ok”
9:58am Casey’s cell records show she “missed” a call from Cindy’s cell
10:23am Casey sent a text to Cindy (no message available)
10:33am Cindy sent text to Casey: “Last minute?”
11:19am Casey’s cell records show she “missed” a call from Cindy’s cell
11:37am Casey sent text to Cindy (no message available)
I assume it was on Sunday afternoon that Cindy and George saw the notice from the USPS, dated July 11, that had been left on their front door saying a certified letter from “Johnson’s” was waiting for them at the PO.
Casey’s cell records show she “missed” a call from Cindy’s cell at 7:35pm
Monday, July 14:
7:35am Cindy sent text to Casey: “Remember me?”
8:21am Casey’s cell records show she “missed” a call from George. (She had taken a 5.5-minute call from George’s cell on July 8 at 9:00am and apparently had no additional phone contact with him until he tried to call her on the morning of July 14.)
8:30am-6:30pm George had a meeting with Andrews International on Monday, so he couldn’t go to the PO to pick up the certified letter. If Cindy was referring to Monday, July 14 in the email fragment as I believe she was, then George had worked 9:00am to 6:00pm, which is why he had not been able to get to the PO until Tuesday, when he didn’t have to go in until 2:00pm. His Epass records confirm that he was hitting tolls at 6:14pm on June 14 on his way home. This account is also consistent with Debbie Bennett’s testimony that Cindy told Debbie on July 14 that she and George found the certified letter notice and that George could not get it until the next day because of his work schedule.
7:35am Cindy sent a text message to Casey: “Remember me?”
3:33pm Casey called the landline when she knew Cindy and George were both working and left a message (46 seconds)
5:45pm Casey’s cell records show she “missed” a call from the Anthony landline
5:49pm Casey retrieved a voice message (49 seconds) from the Anthony landline
6:11pm Casey sent a text message to Cindy’s cell phone (unknown message)
8:30pm Cindy sent Casey a text message: “Can u call me soon? Ill b going 2 bed soon.”
11:33pm Casey’s cell records show she “missed” a call from the Anthony landline
11:33pm Casey retrieved a voice mail (11 seconds) from Anthony landline
Tuesday, July 15:
12:12am Cindy left a message on Casey’s MySpace (Casey got a MySpace alert on her cell phone – the content of the MySpace message is unknown). I am guessing this is around the time that Cindy wrote and sent the Yahoo email referencing the impact of the Anheuser-Busch sale on central Florida theme parks.
11:00am is the approximate time George recalled leaving the house to pay two bills at Amscot and get the certified letter from the PO. It’s a 15-minute drive to the East Colonial Amscot, George was probably inside for 10 minutes, and it’s a 13-minute drive from Amscot to the Narcoossee PO branch.
11:45am George arrived at the Narcoossee PO, read the letter, and called Cindy.
11:55am Approximate time George arrived at Johnson’s Wrecker. He argued with Nicole Lett about the size of the bill. Nicole said it was probably a couple of hours between George’s two visits to Johnson’s that day, and he was paying the bill a couple of hours later at 2:00pm.
12:15pm Approximate time George called Cindy with the adjusted costs. George said he would go home for the registration and title while Cindy went to the bank. Cindy told George to bring gas cans just in case. It took George about seven minutes to drive home, and he said he waited at the house for about 30 minutes for Cindy.
Casey’s cell records show she “missed” a call from Cindy’s cell at 12:48pm
12:58p Casey called Cindy’s cell phone for 3.5 minutes (213 seconds)
1:11p Cindy called Casey’s cell for 1.3 minutes (89 seconds)
1:30p Approximate time that George and Cindy arrived together at Johnson’s.
2:15p Approximate time George and Cindy arrived home with the Pontiac. George removed the battery. Cindy removed the items that were in the trunk, sprayed Febreze on the trunk’s carpet liner, and threw Casey’s pants in the wash.
2:27p George on the 528 on his way to work (Epass records confirm).
2:45-3:00pm Cindy arrived back at Gentiva. Cindy must have gone back to Gentiva shortly after George left because Debbie Bennett recalled Cindy returning around 2:00pm, and it’s a 16-minute commute for Cindy. Debbie also said she talked to Cindy when Cindy returned but Debbie left work that day between 3:00-3:30pm, so Cindy must have left the Anthony house soon after George left.
4:00-5:00pm Cindy told LE that she believed this is when she returned to the house after returning to work briefly.
4:27p Cindy sent text message to Casey’s cell phone: “Call me asap major prob”
4:44p Casey sent text message to Cindy’s cell phone (unknown message)
4:45p Cindy sent text message to Casey’s cell phone: “Call me”
4:48p Casey sent text message to Cindy’s cell phone (unknown message)
4:53p Casey sent text to Amy: “I think your camera is at my parents. I’ll check later to be sure.”
5:22p Amy sent text to Casey: “No, it’s not. I must have put down the wrong address because it came back there. I’ll just have it sent to the boys house.”
5:30p Casey sent text to Amy: “Oh ok. My Mom had texted me something about it.”
5:31pm Casey’s cell records show she “missed” a call from Cindy’s cell
Cindy waited a bit and then called Amy Huizenga.
I think it’s fairly obvious that Casey was trying to get Cindy to describe the “major prob” via text, but Cindy wouldn’t tell her (and Casey wasn’t going to call without knowing). We have no way of knowing what Cindy and Casey discussed during the phone calls at 12:58pm and 1:11pm, but my guess is Cindy mentioned a certified letter but said nothing about learning that the Pontiac had been towed. I am surmising that Cindy wanted all the details from Johnson’s before she confronted Casey and that Cindy wanted a face-to-face confrontation. At the very least, she didn’t want to give Casey any warning about the towing until Cindy had the all the towing details lined up against a timeline of Casey’s stories during the same time period.
My reason for believing Cindy had not told Casey about the nature of the letter or recovery of the Pontiac is that only minutes after Cindy refused to tell Casey what the major problem was, Casey sent a text to Amy asking about her camera. That “camera” question was in reference to Amy’s question to Casey two weeks earlier after Amy found out that Casey wasn’t getting the Hopespring house after all:
June 29: Amy text to Casey: “Sorry! Hey, my camera is being shipped to your house. What should I do about that?”
June 29: Casey text to Amy: “How soon?”
June 29: Amy text to Casey: “I don’t know. Once it’s fixed?”
June 29: Casey text to Amy: “I wasn’t sure if it was already done. Have it sent to the house. I have a lot of details to fill you in on. I’ll call you later on.”
Casey knew George and Cindy had been very unhappy that Amy Huizenga had filed for a change of address on June 17 using 4937 Hopespring Drive as her new address, but Casey had told Amy on June 29 to go ahead and still use that address for her camera delivery, and Casey had not heard any more about the camera. From Amy’s belief that she had written the wrong address, I assume Cindy refused delivery but had not said anything to Casey.
So on July 15, Casey was hoping that the “major prob” relating to something at the PO was Cindy’s overreaction to the attempted delivery of Amy’s camera after George and Cindy had contested the change of address with the PO. When Amy said the camera had already been returned and re-routed to JP’s condo, Casey must have realized that the Pontiac shoe had finally dropped.
Not that we can rely on Cindy’s testimony to LE, but Cindy did imply that she had not told Casey about finding the Pontiac until she faced Casey in Tony’s apartment:
Cindy: “Um, so Casey agreed to go with me. I said we need to talk. You need to do some explaining. I said, we have the car. We have, we found the Pontiac, it’s not where, obviously, you’re not in Jacksonville and neither is the car. So, I said you need to tell me where Caylee’s at.” (Page 36)
I don’t believe Cindy said anything about learning the Pontiac had been towed until she was face-to-face with Casey on the evening of July 15.
I know JWG has surmised that Cindy told George to bring the gas cans to Johnson’s because Casey told Cindy earlier in the day that she had run out of gas, but I do not agree. Casey had stolen George’s gas cans only three weeks earlier and George said he knew she had been taking gas because of the stains on her car below the gas cap. Casey’s “gas” history was ample reason for Cindy to suspect Casey had run out of gas again.
WSH - I will ask Angela about the cache issue you may be having. Also - if you’re registered on VRHacks - she usually answers back on that board pretty quickly. I think she may do it on her blackberry or iphone or whatever she uses because she is quick.
WSH you probably already checked this but I loaded SL on my new Macbook and it runs beautifully but not so great on my 3 yr old desktop HP in my office. Could it be your processor?
WSH to clear cache go to edit preferences network and clear cache. Everyone is coming on and we are working out problems. Angela is really busy setting up our ‘ping’ Island so just come on in and type hi I am a Blinker and someone/if on/will help you…As I am typing someone who has been on there for 5 years and friends with Angela is helping someone else with graphics….there’s help at the vrhacks forum too.
Maura, you are a fantastic resource and I appreciate your fabulous sleuthing skills. Thank you SO much.
Can anyone help me with one question that will sadly reveal how cyber-challenged I am? In order to be part of the scantily-clad people running about in Second Life do I need to be a member of Virtuality Hacks or is that just something completely separate?
233 Silver
No pings near the Anthony house on June 14, but there are many gaps in phone activity throughout the day during which she could have made a run to the house. THat’s what I’ve been trying to say about the limits of Casey’s phone records.
For instance, from 8:23am until 12 noon, she didn’t use her phone. The 8:23am ping hit Tony tower #1 and the 12:00pm ping hit Tony tower #2, which is located at 4490 N Goldenrod Rd. When she drives from the Anthony house to Tony’s apartment, she drives north on Chickasaw to northwest on Curry Ford to north on Goldenrod, so she could have been on her way back to Tony’s from the Anthony house at noon, but there are no pings during that gap of three hours and thirty-seven minutes to confirm where she was.
There are other gaps of an hour or slightly more throughout the day, and since it takes her 20 minutes to drive from Tony’s to the Anthony house, she could also have made a quick trip home during one of those gaps.
Chris Stutz was wrong in thinking he saw Casey jogging on Chickasaw on Tuesday, 7/15/08 at approximately 9-9:30. Her text messages show it was on Monday, 7/14/08 at 7:38am that he sent her an email asking if she had been running that morning. At 8:11a Casey sent a text to Chris saying no, it wasn’t her (her cell records show she was at Tony’s for his SMS and her response.
Not only do her pings put her at Tony’s apartment on the morning of June 14, but Cindy would have been driving to work between 7:00-7:45am (a route that includes Chickasaw), and there is no way Casey would be running in a place and at a time when Cindy might spot her.
The fragment of Cindy’s email that I posted is the entire fragment that I found in the discovery.
And it appears that Casey had a lot on her mind on June 14. At 10:53am, Casey left a MySpace message for a friend named Ashley:
“things have been pretty hectic as of late, with trying to be home with my family, have a social life, work & find another job all at the same time. plus, i’m trying to decide what school i want to enroll in for the fall semester. so many choices, no idea what i want to major in this time.”
She was clearly too busy to go jogging.
**Tat should have been July 14 in the comment about the Ashley MySpace message. I’m getting very sloppy.
As we know, Casey called the Anthony landline on July 14 at 3:33pm and left a message (46 seconds). She may have been checking to make sure George was at work in preparation for a lightening run to the house since her next ping isn’t for another 64 minutes, which would have given her about 20 minutes in the Anthony house before she drove back to Tony’s.
#170 Marian
I laughed until I cried. Had to tell you.
242 Kleat
One of the perks of Yahoo!Mail is unlimited storage space. The Yahoo! server would therefore not delete an account holder’s emails, and I can’t imagine a situation (assuming the function is even available) in which an individual account-holder would want his or her emails to vanish from the outbox immediately after sending.
In Lee’s OCSO interview, he said Casey’s Yahoo!Mail account could only have been emptied by someone who knew the password to her account and then deliberately and manually cleared all records.
Suzee and Bee……
I’m glad I gave you a chuckle. It was really funny when it was all over. We had a good laugh last night. Before that- I was both embarrased and frustrated. We really have good friends here on this site!
I keep reading comments regarding the trial jury’s decision to convict or acquit Casey, and I just want to point out that the jury will vote separately on each of the seven counts Casey is facing. It’s not a package deal whereby they will find her guilty of every charge or not guilty of every charge. And for each of the seven separate counts, the jury’s vote for guilt will have to be unanimous in order to get a conviction on that count.
Relative to the first three counts (first degree murder, aggravated child abuse, and aggravated manslaughter of a child), the jury will have the option of acquitting Casey on the first degree murder charge and finding her guilty of one or both of the two lesser charges (both are first degree felonies, but they are not capital felonies). The jurors might decide that the State did not prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Caylee was intentionally killed by a premeditated design. Or they could be split 50-50 on the first degree murder charge or there could be one hold-out on the first degree murder charge. Casey will only be convicted of first degree murder if all twelve jurors vote for guilt on that charge.
It could be that the jurors will come to a unanimous decision on Casey’s guilt for aggravated manslaughter of a child or for aggravated child abuse or for both of those charges but will not come to a unanimous decision on the charge of premeditated murder. In other words, the jurors could decide that Casey killed Caylee by some action but that Casey did not take that action with the intent to kill Caylee.
I have not been able to work out what the State’s options would be (if any) should the jury be hung on the murder charge (e.g., they could not come to a unanimous decision for a guilty or not guilty verdict) but come to a unanimous agreement of guilt on the charge of manslaughter of a child. Would there be a double-jeopardy violation if the State retried Casey ONLY on the charge of first degree murder (the charge for which the jury was hung) or would the fact that the jury found Casey guilty of killing Casey via the manslaughter charge mean the State could never again try Casey on a charge pertaining to any action taken by Casey that caused Caylee’s death?
If the jury were only presented with the murder charge (no lesser “killing” charges), and were hung, the State would have the option of retrying her on the murder charge or on a lesser manslaughter charge. But if the jury were only presented with a manslaughter charge and found her guilty, the State could not, at a later date, decide they wanted to try her for the greater charge of murder. That would be double jeopardy. So using those examples as a guide, if the jurors have a choice between the two charges and are hung on the murder charge but find Casey guilty of manslaughter, I believe the State would have to accept a manslaughter conviction as the legal end-of-the-road. Is that right, Silver?
On October 14, 2008, the grand jury heard testimony from six witnesses, among them George Anthony, Detective Yuri Melich, K9 Deputy Jason Forgery, and at least two FBI agents (who allegedly gave information about tip results, Casey’s psychological profile, and Pontiac trunk forensics). After deliberating, the grand jury returned seven true bills against Casey Anthony. The grand jury doesn’t need to be convinced of the suspect’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; they only need to be convinced that a preponderance of the evidence presented to them supports the possibility that a particular crime was committed.
The grand jury that heard evidence against Casey was told of her failure to contact LE, of her behavior over the 30-day period following Caylee’s disappearance, of the decomposition evidence in the trunk, of Casey’s chloroform searches in March, and of the higher-than-normal levels of chloroform found in the air sample taken from the Pontiac trunk in July. That’s more than enough evidence to support a finding that Caylee may have been killed from a premeditated design, hence the first degree murder charge.
The grand jury does not hear testimony from the suspect’s advocates to challenge the evidence presented by the State. All the evidence heard by the grand jury will be challenged at trial, and it’s a possibility that some of the evidence heard by the grand jury will not be presented to the trial jury. I am thinking here about the air sample testing and the postmortem banding on the hair sample. As Terence Lenamon wrote last November in his report to the SAO, the techniques used to analyze hair and air samples from the trunk to prove evidence of a body are “novel, experimental, in the early stages of development, inconclusive and highly susceptible to mishandling.”
I’m not saying those arguments will compel Judge Strickland to suppress the hair and air testing, but it is a possibility only because
1) The first mention of postmortem hair banding was made in a journal article in 2001 (according to a forensic website) and very little research has been done regarding this banding and what events, other than death, could cause it. Postmortem banding is furthermore one of the least-observed characteristics of decomposition.
2) Air sampling tests are relatively new and the database of chemical signatures for animal-specific decompositional events is extremely limited. Moreover, the air sample in the Pontiac trunk was complicated by the presence of gasoline fumes, and when those overlapping decomp-gas chemicals were excluded, some of the remaining specific chemicals (sodium and fluoride come to mind) were not at levels consistent with the estimated PMI for a human decompositional event.
3) The testing was conducted (and analysis rendered) by research labs like Oak Ridge, and not by recognized crime labs. This gets into the issue of the lack of widespread testing of those areas of forensics for verification and reproducibility.
I’m not saying Judge Strickland will suppress the hair and air tests. DNA was new once, too. I am saying the defense counsel’s arguments to suppress this evidence won’t be flimsy. The prosecution and defense will fight over evidence issues in the pre-trial hearings, and the jury will only hear what Strickland decides they should hear. He could decide to let the hair and air sampling in and allow the scientists to fight over the significance of the tests in front of the jury. He might decide that the hair and air sampling testing is too theoretical to be allowed to influence a death penalty jury.
At any rate, the grand jury did not merely return a true bill for first degree murder; the jurors also returned true bills for two lesser charges: aggravated child abuse and aggravated manslaughter of a child. Whether the decision to include the lesser “killing” charge of manslaughter was made by the grand jurors alone or whether the charge was included at the request of the State is unknown. What is not in question is the fact that the inclusion of the lesser manslaughter charge offers the trial jury an alternative to the first degree murder charge.
Once a grand jury’s true bill is filed with the court, it becomes an indictment, so by late afternoon on October 14, seven indictments had been filed against Casey, and a warrant was immediately issued for her arrest on the following charges.
Count 1. First degree murder (Capital)
Casey Marie Anthony, between June 15 and July 16, 2008, did, in violation of Florida Statute 782.04(1)(a)(1), from a premeditated design to effect the death of Caylee Marie Anthony, a human being, unlawfully kill Caylee Marie Anthony.
Florida Statute 782.04(1)(a)(1)
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
. . . is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.
s. 775.082 (1) A person who has been convicted of a capital felony shall be punished by death if the proceeding held to determine sentence according to the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 results in findings by the court that such person shall be punished by death, otherwise such person shall be punished by life imprisonment and shall be ineligible for parole.
Count 2. Aggravated child abuse
Casey Marie Anthony, between June 15 and July 16, 2008, did, in violation of Florida Statute 827.03(2), cause great bodily harm, permanent disfigurement, or permanent disability to Caylee Marie Anthony, a child under 18 years of age, by intentionally inflicting physical injury upon Caylee Marie Anthony, or by intentionally committing an act or actively encouraging another person to commit an act which could reasonably be expected to result in physical injury to Caylee Marie Anthony.
Florida Statute 827.03(2) “Aggravated child abuse” occurs when a person:
(a) Commits aggravated battery on a child;
(b) Willfully tortures, maliciously punishes, or willfully and unlawfully cages a child; or
(c) Knowingly or willfully abuses a child and in so doing causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child.
A person who commits aggravated child abuse commits a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, and s. 775.084.
Count 3. Aggravated manslaughter of a child
Casey Marie Anthony, between June 15 and July 16, 2008, did willfully or by culpable negligence, in violation of Florida Statutes 782.07(3) and 827.03(3), while a caregiver to Caylee Marie Anthony, a child under 18 years of age, fail or omit to provide to Caylee Marie Anthony with the care, supervision, and services necessary to maintain Caylee Marie Anthony’s physical and mental health, or fail to make a reasonable effort to protect Caylee Marie Anthony from abuse, neglect, or exploitation by another person, and in doing so caused the death of Caylee Marie Anthony.
Florida Statute 782.07(3)
3) A person who causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence under s. 827.03(3) commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
Florida Statute 827.03(3) “Neglect of a child” means:
827.03(3)(a):
1. A caregiver’s failure or omission to provide a child with the care, supervision, and services necessary to maintain the child’s physical and mental health, including, but not limited to, food, nutrition, clothing, shelter, supervision, medicine, and medical services that a prudent person would consider essential for the well-being of the child; or
2. A caregiver’s failure to make a reasonable effort to protect a child from abuse, neglect, or exploitation by another person.
Neglect of a child may be based on repeated conduct or on a single incident or omission that results in, or could reasonably be expected to result in, serious physical or mental injury, or a substantial risk of death, to a child.
(b) A person who willfully or by culpable negligence neglects a child and in so doing causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
For Counts 4-7:
837.055 False information to law enforcement during investigation.–Whoever knowingly and willfully gives false information to a law enforcement officer who is conducting a missing person investigation or a felony criminal investigation with the intent to mislead the officer or impede the investigation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
Count 4. Providing false information to LE
Casey Marie Anthony, on July 16, 2008, did, in violation of Florida Statute 837.055, knowingly and willfully give false information to Yuri Melich, an OCSO law enforcement officer, who was conducting a missing person investigation, with the intent to mislead Yuri Melich or impede his investigation, to wit: that Casey Marie Anthony was employed at Universal Studios Orlando during the year 2008.
Count 5. Providing false information to LE
Casey Marie Anthony, on July 16, 2008, did, in violation of Florida Statute 837.055, knowingly and willfully give false information to Yuri Melich, an OCSO law enforcement officer, who was conducting a missing person investigation, with the intent to mislead Yuri Melich or impede his investigation, to wit: that Casey Marie Anthony left the child Caylee Marie Anthony at the Sawgrass Apartment, 2863 South Conway Road, Apt. 210, Orlando, Florida, with a person identified as Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez on June9, 2008 or any subsequent date.
Count 6. Providing false information to LE
Casey Marie Anthony, on July 16, 2008, did, in violation of Florida Statute 837.055, knowingly and willfully give false information to Yuri Melich, an OCSO law enforcement officer, who was conducting a missing person investigation, with the intent to mislead Yuri Melich or impede his investigation, to wit: that Casey Marie Anthony informed persons identified as Jeffrey Michael Hopkins and Juliette Lewis, former Universal Studios Orlando employees, of the disappearance of the child Caylee Marie Anthony between June 9, 2008 and July 16, 2008.
Count 7. Providing false information to LE
Casey Marie Anthony, on July 16, 2008, did, in violation of Florida Statute 837.055, knowingly and willfully give false information to Yuri Melich, an OCSO law enforcement officer, who was conducting a missing person investigation, with the intent to mislead Yuri Melich or impede his investigation, to wit: that Casey Marie Anthony received a phone call from the child Caylee Marie Anthony on July 15, 2008 at approximately 12:00pm.
***
Punishment Statutes:
s. 775.082 – Prison terms. Counts 4-7 are misdemeanors, which, by definition, carry jail/prison terms of less than one year per count. Moreover, those terms may be served consecutively or concurrently, depending on what the judgment is.
I cannot work out from the options listed in s. 775.082 what the prison terms might be for Count 2 and Count 3. Maybe Silver will help us out. Here is the webpage:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0775/SEC082.HTM&Title=->2009->Ch0775->Section%20082#0775.082
s. 775.083 – Fines.
s. 775.084 – Deals with punishments for violent career criminals; habitual felony offenders and habitual violent felony offenders; three-time violent felony offenders; definitions; procedure; enhanced penalties or mandatory minimum prison terms. I do not see that 775.084 would apply to Casey since she had no criminal convictions when Caylee disappeared.
***
Now, in light of the lesser manslaughter charge available to the trial jury, it’s interesting that Lyon is working so hard to get the death penalty removed from this case. Part of the reason was clearly stated by Silver: it would be incompetence for Casey’s counsel NOT to do everything in their power to get the death penalty removed. Another reason is IMO strategic relative to public opinion: if Lyon succeeds in getting the death penalty removed ahead of the trial, then the public’s perception would be that the State’s case wasn’t as strong as the death penalty reinstatement would imply.
I welcome Silver’s corrections and explanations. This is what I see from my attempt-to-learn-as-you-go point of view.
Woefully, I agree. I am a 20% Idealist and 80% Advocate so it does get in the way of logic sometimes, I admit. While there are flaws in our Judicial system, I also maintain it is the best jurisprudence in the world.
I also admit if Baez was a competent, ethically- responsible attorney, I might welcome the balance of scales where Lyon comes in. Personal feeling aside, we need to remember that at a 30,000 foot view, this case establishes precedents we have yet to contemplate.
B
PS - The point has also been made in articles I’ve read that DP-qualified jurors tend be conservative law-and-order types who are far more likely to believe the prosecution than they are to believe the defense. They are also more likely to convict than non-DP-qualified jurors, so that would be another strategic reason to get the DP removed from this case.
Here is a link to a six-page article Andrea Lyon wrote in 2006 titled “Defending the Life-or-Death Case.” I strongly recommend it to everyone.
http://www.andrealyon.com/linked/defendingthelife-or-deathcasearticle.pdf
A CSO friend named Logical sent me the link when Lyon joined the defense team. She pointed out the sections in which Lyon describes the need to explore problems in the client’s home environment and family relationships and wondered how Cindy “everything was fine” Anthony is going to react to questions about intra-family violence and abuse.
Another point Lyon’s makes in the article is her strong belief in filing “any motion for which there is a good faith basis.” She gives the following example:
“This is especially true in a capital case because there is no way to anticipate what motion or objection, thus far deemed a “loser” by the courts, may ultimately become a winner. For example, for many years, lawyers representing capital defendants filed motions asking for the right to “reverse Witherspoon” capital juries. These lawyers figured that, if under Witherspoon v. United States, 391 U.S. 510 (1968), the
prosecution had the right to identify and strike for cause all potential jurors who would be unable to impose the death penalty under any circumstances, lawyers for the defense should be able to identify and strike those who would never consider anything else. Courts denied these motions time and again in Illinois, and the denials routinely were affirmed by the Illinois Supreme Court. Then, the U.S. Supreme Court decided Morgan v. Illinois, 504 U.S. 719 (1992), and agreed with the “reverse Witherspoon” advocates. If the trial lawyers representing Derrick Morgan had not made their record—had not been willing to hear the word “denied” one more time—this
right would not exist.”
IF I MAY.. READ THE ABOVE LINK. YOU WILL SEE THAT CONTENT IN UPCOMING MOTIONS. IT IS HER “ANGLE”..THANKS MAURA
b
I must offer up a theory, and feel free to agree or not. I think Casey’s resentment in this process began after those first initial weeks. I noticed how, at the first few court appearances and occassional jail visits, Casey was playing the victim role and trying to persuade both of them that she was “innocent”, constantly looking over at them, even “innocently waving at them as she was led out of the courtroom, etc. I believe she expected Cindy and George were able and going to get her off the hook, like they had been doing all her life. As time went on and she realized noone was going to help her escape the mess she created, that’s when she been being cold and aggressively detached to them, culminating in the most recent courtroom antics by not really acknowledging them and giving George the middle finger. What do you guys think?
Reading the article now, Blink. As we have been recently discussing what the defense theory might be, and this case is wrought with Casey’s plans for what was going on, in the 31 days, ideas of a nanny that morphs into kidnapper(s), etc etc, and the scenario morphs time and time again with Cindy’s ideas, George’s whatever ideas (we know little). So our ideas of what the defense might offer seems to be based on the explanations of Casey and Cindy and the manipulations towards that end, by Cindy mastermind.
Interesting view presented by Ms. Lyon on pg. 3 of 6 (link in Maura’s post 260):
“But do not expect your client to tell you what theory of the case and/or mitigation ought to be. It is unlikely that he will have great insight (or any insight) into his own behavior.”
What does this say about Casey’s planning, and what, especially does this say about Cindy, who doesn’t listen to anyone but Cindy who buys Casey’s behaviour and stories completely.
How will Ms. Lyon be able to deal with what Cindy wants? And hasn’t Cindy, following and manipulating Casey’s story material and evidence, been dictating the defense storyline to the point where Cindy’s own actions tie the defense into her own theories? Unless of course, blame will be assigned to Cindy, if only to mitigate Casey’s behaviour as a result of her upbringing and family life.
So what was the deal in the recent motions, with ToddyMacs once again, saying ’she is INNOCENT and we have EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT’.
How does this position reconcile with what Ms. Lyon writes on Pg 5 of her paper:
“I also wrote that “[i]t is not good t put on a ‘he didn’t do it’ defense and a ‘he is sorry he did it’ mitigation. This just does not work.”
Ms. Lyon goes on to say “The jury will give the death penalty to the client and, in essense, the attorney.”
and… “the point is not that you should never put on a defense based on the theory that the police got the wrong guy, but think these things through before you start trial: even if you have an innocent client, the odds are you will be facing a penalty phase.”
Why the early declaration, therefore, of the “INNOCENT” declaration?
Very Good catch Kleat- This disjoint was obvious to me inasmuch as the defense appears indignant at the prospect of her guilt, Lyon is saying there is no mitigation strategy that will work, in essence- assume their is going to come a time where the “inevitable” happens.
She was invited too late to the party on this one no matter how you slice it, the horse was out of the barn.
B
#261 Todd***I think casey’s finger went up the moment she murdered caylee. The lame “gesture” in court shows her continuing contempt for her family, part of the defense strategy. Also, I wonder if she watched her dad’s M&M deposition.
Seeing that Casey is charged with the crime of murder, how is it that she can be making money off of book and movie deals and also selling photos of Caylee. this is wrong and George and Cindy shouldn’t be allowed to do this either. they are just as guilty as Casey is because of all of the lying and covering up that they have been doing.this family makes me so sick. IMO,they didn’t love this child as much as they want people to beleive they did. they are the lowest of the low because they are making a living off of the death of Caylee.MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF YOUR MISERABLE SOULS,CINDY,GEORGE AND CASEY.
Lily & Shelly
I will try the instructions, but I am working on an older computer, so that may be the problem. Thanks for all the help.
I understand that a death penalty qualified jury is tilted toward the favor of the prosecution, at least in terms of the statistics noted on conviction. However, that would be a wholesale argument for not having the death penalty at all, if you argue elimination of jurors who might acquit. I do understand that this may be Lyon’s “mission”, in the end. However, if a state has existing laws that permit the death penalty, then you are up against those particular laws. Aren’t you?
Again, I thought (please correct me) that the laws were such in FL, that if there is a homicide of a child under 12, along with the charge of aggravated child neglect, you were automatically entitled, as a prosecutor, to make the decision of trying a capital case. Those two charges, in and of themselves, are considered heinous enough, that the state wouldn’t need to argue past the law, or would they?
Clearly, with out any additional evidence, we can accept the aggravated neglect charge. Not informing anyone that there was an “abduction” seems to fit perfectly under this. :
“A caregiver’s failure to make a reasonable effort to protect a child from abuse, neglect, or exploitation by another person.Neglect of a child may be based on repeated conduct or on a single incident or omission that results in, or could reasonably be expected to result in, serious physical or mental injury, or a substantial risk of death, to a child.”
Secondly, recovering Caylee’s remains, in the woods, with duct tape across her face, indicates, strongly, foul play, as opposed to death by natural causes, or accident. (Although I personally still believe that the duct tape could have been “staging” after the fact, but I am moving away from this, as I read more of Maura’s and the rest of your posts collectively).
Is the state obligated to reveal more, in terms of other aggravating factors (theories, etc) if they have already followed existing law? The law may not be fair, but it is the law. Does Lyons have to present any evidence about the case, in order to demonstrate that an “innocent person” (Casey) will be subject to an unfair advantage for the state?
If she argues fairness vs truth, couldn’t her own actions, in not revealing an innocent party sent to jail, under her watch, come back to haunt her? In that instance, she was following the letter of the law, and not fairness or truth in regard to the innocent man incarcerated.
She has one job, and one job only. She has to knock the DP off the table as unconstitutional based on the opinion that the state is using it as a tactic to violate her clients rights. It has nothing to do whatsoever with her guilt or innocense at this point really. In legaleez, it is more like going after an opinion in which it is used as a precedent to rewrite the constitutionality of the DP within the Supreme Court of Florida.
Yes, regardless of your opinion personally on the death penalty, it should at least pizz you off that an attorney for another state on “loan” can be permitted to effectively bring another state’s moritoreum to on e where the people have already spoken, imo.
Correction:
if she argues “fairness”….couldn’t
It didn’t make sense to me, after reading it.
Westside and Lily,
Thank you for responding to my question re: where the dogs hit. I was actually looking for this info. for Angela on SL. She has gone by the actual picture and placed the cones in the corner of the yard. We were just not sure if there were other places “hit on” or not. If there were other places, Angela wanted to know so that she could also mark those places for accuracy.
Blink, can you eliminate my first correction, it should have read
“fairness vs law”….
Thanks
Oh, I just read your response. My point was that she was arguing “fairness”, in part. But the law is not always balanced or fair. And she herself, ran into this by permitting an innocent man to be jailed, while defending her client. Again, I reiterate, the law is the law. She followed the letter of the law in that circumstance, and not what was fair, or even ‘just’ for the innocent man jailed. Now she appears to be arguing against what is an existing law (my opinion doesn’t matter), in favor of fairness.
The state has to prove 1st degree murder with an aggravating factor. I thought that this was covered by a) the ME’s opinion of homicide based on the remains B) the ME & State’s further opinion based on actions, before and after the death , that premeditation, at least within a split second, was indicated. The aggravating factor would then be the neglect charge.
If she is going to argue that the state hasn’t presented enough evidence of premeditation in order to qualify for a capital case, then do they (the state) have to detail all of what they compiled, that led them to this conclusion, while arguing against Lyon’s motion to dismiss the death penalty?
It seems to me, it would be like having a trial before the trial..???
Obviously, I’m a bit flummoxed by this.
Very well phrased, I would invite silver to expand, but in short, your right. Part of the strategy is getting the state to justify the DP change was done in good faith, er go, what evidence do they have?
B
Maura #259
That shouldn’t happen if the Jury Verdict Questionnaire is properly crafted.
The jury doesn’t just get the statutory definition. They get a series are carefully crafted questions that will lead them to what is hopefully a logical result.
If they find her guilty on the lesser included offense of Aggravated Manslaughter, it should mean that they either did not believe that she carried out a premeditated killing of Caylee.
What your question truly is about, is Double Jeopardy.
The Double Jeopardy Clause consists of three separate guarantees: (1) “[i]t protects against a second prosecution for the same offense after acquittal. [(2)] It protects against a second prosecution for the same offense after conviction. [(3)] And it protects against multiple punishments for the same offense” (North Carolina v. Pearce, 395 US 711, 717 1969] [footnotes omitted] overruled in part on other grounds Alabama v. Smith, 490 US 794 [1989]).
The Constitution of the State of Florida provides:
SECTION 9. Due process.–No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law, or be twice put in jeopardy for the same offense, or be compelled in any criminal matter to be a witness against oneself.
If the verdict is inconsistent as per your scenario, i.e. if the jury is “hung” on the Murder charge, but finds her guilty of, say, Aggravated Manslaughter (the lesser included offense),did the murder charge reach a final conclusion?
There are a couple of key questions here:
1. Is the unlawful killing of Caylee the “same offense”, whether it was intentional (Murder) or not (Aggravated Manslaughter).
The question really is this: is a “hung” jury equivalent to an acquittal.
If it is, then theoretically, no. The State may not retry her.
If it is not, then theoretically, yes. The State may retry her.
I did not find a Florida case on point, and honestly did not spend much time searching, but there may also be a Florida statute that will spell it out (although, statutes are interpreted by courts in case law, so… back to searching for a case, for anyone out there who has the time).
I am aware of other cases where a particular state’s Supreme Court has read that particular state’s statute as flatly barring a retrial on a greater offense whenever there is already a conviction on a lesser-included one. (California, for certain)
I simply don’t know whether Florida has a statute governing the issue.
******
As to Lyon fighting so hard to get the DP off the table, what could be more important to anyone representing someone accused of a capital offense for which the State can impose the ultimate sentence of Death than to fight for her client’s life. (I didn’t mean to imply that her motivation had anything to do with a post-conviction charge of ineffective assistance of counsel).
She is clearly committed to fighting what she sees as an impermissible use of power by the State, but I am certain she is also, particularly, fighting for Casey’s life (no matter what she personally believes Casey may have done).
BTW-
The State was required to charge Casey with the lesser included offense of Aggravated Manslaughter.
“[I]f the prosecution has not established beyond a reasonable doubt every element of the offense charged, and if no lesser offense instruction is offered, the jury must, as a theoretical matter, return a verdict of acquittal. But a defendant is entitled to a lesser offense instruction-in this context or any other-precisely because he should not be exposed to the substantial risk that the jury’s practice will diverge from theory. Where one of the elements of the offense charged remains in doubt, but the defendant is plainly guilty of some offense, the jury is likely to resolve its doubts in favor of conviction.” 412 U.S., at 212-213, 93 S.Ct. at 1997-1998. The Court explained the value of such a safeguard in Beck v. Alabama, where it held that the death sentence may not constitutionally be imposed after a jury verdict of guilt of a capital offense if the jury has not been permitted to consider an alternative verdict of guilt of a lesser included offense. In reaffirming the Court’s commitment to the lesser-offense doctrine, the Court observed that “the nearly universal acceptance of the rule in both state and federal courts establishes the value to the defendant of this procedural safeguard.” 447 U.S., at 637.
Thus, the U.S. Supreme Court more than once has expressed the understanding that a lesser-included-offense option minimizes the risk of undermining the reasonable-doubt standard. Florida, whose laws here apply, apparently has reached the same understanding, and requires that any person indicted for a “degree crime” such as first-degree murder is entitled to have the jury instructed on all degrees of the offense (absent the running of the statute of limitations on any lesser included offense- but that does not apply here).
*****
The defense will certainly be filing pre-trial motions to preclude the admission of the forensic testing you mentioned. The court’s decision on these motions will be pivotal to any plea negotiations that may follow.
*****
My last post was written in haste, and clearly I meant to say more, but I think you get the gist.
If the jury finds her guilty of the necessarily lesser included offense of Aggravated Manslaughter (Florida categorizes lesser included offenses are either necessary or permissive), than it should mean that they did not find–or agree– that the killing was premeditated.
Further down, I said there were 2 questions, but only enumerated the first.
The second was there, just no enumeration.
Just want to add that this is entirely theoretical at this point, and that IF that bizarre result occurs, then there are arguments to be made on either side, although I still believe that the State would not be entitled to retry her on the Murder charge (and why would they if they have a conviction on Aggravated Manslaughter).
**your question gave me a headache!
Just by way of example, here is a Jury Verdict Questionnaire where the jurors have 38 counts to consider, including 18 counts of murder.
The murder counts in this example include the possibility of lesser charges such as second degree murder, voluntary manslaughter or reckless homicide. Lesser charges are also possible on the robbery and rape counts.
Even if the jury doesn’t find the defendant in this case guilty of premeditated first degree murder, felony murder still carries the death penalty.
The jury in this case is also the sentencing jury and it has the final say.
If jurors are hung on the death penalty sentence, they’ll discuss lesser sentences such as life without parole.
Different State, but just to give an idea:
http://wate.images.worldnow.com/images/incoming/news/VerdictformsforLetalvisCobbins.pdf
263 Guilt phase versus penalty phase
What I understood in Lyon’s paper is that if the defense claims in the guilt phase of the trial that the defendant is innocent, then the defense cannot make a 180 degree reversal after a guilty verdict and claim the defendant is sorry for committing the crime that the lawyers had just been claiming he or she never committed. She is saying, essentially, if the jury concludes the defense claims of innocence are untrue, then the defense knows its credibility with the jury is shot, and suddenly claiming that the “innocent” client is sorry for having committed the crime will only reinforce the jury’s believe that defense does not tell the truth. IIRC, she said the only option for the defense during the penalty phase (following the jury’s rejection of the defense’s claims of innocence) will be to stress to the jury that the client’s life is not without value.
At the end of last year when Linda Kenney Baden first joined the defense, she was on a talk show and started to talk about “degrees of guilt” in reference to this case, but very shortly thereafter, she was claiming Casey was completely innocent of wrongdoing.
My take is this - Casey is claiming 100% innocence in the matter of Caylee’s death, which means the defense lawyers are extremely limited in the type of defense they can present for Casey. The lawyers cannot put forth a “guilty but not as bad as you think because of x, y, and z” unless the defendant agrees to that defense strategy. Where Casey wants to be regarded as a victim herself who had nothing to do with Caylee’s death, that is the hand the lawyers were dealt and must play.
Baez stupidly claimed to the public that Casey is innocent. He should have stuck with “Casey is not guilty of harming Caylee.” But Baez did not take the more reasonable route, and since he has been making public claims that Casey is innocent, the other members of the defense team have to say the same to appear cohesive. That, IMO, is why Linda Kenney Baden’s “degrees of guilt” talk was quickly shut down.
Here is a news article from just last week on the Letalvis Cobbins case relevant to the Jury Verdict Form:
http://www.wbir.com/news/watercooler/story.aspx?storyid=96906
I am also thinking of another case where there were post-conviction issues related to the jury’s verdict in a similar vein to your scenario.
It involved the woman whose dogs mauled her neighbor to death in the apartment hallway. I can’t recall the name right now, but I know there were Double Jeopardy issues.
wsh, what older one are you using? My guess, if it’s a Mac, is the limiting graphics card.
WOW to Maura and Silver, thank you both for explaining all of this. To both of you, you cannot imagine how many people, from all walks of life, grab a cuppa java and hope you guys have posted something when they rev up the computer! I am hearing it daily as I try to help Angela get people oriented to Second Life. I am sure both of you (and Blink) have burning ears from all the talking about you going on~!
Silver, in my little serene community suddenly the media spotlight has been on. Kristi Cormwell, who went for a walk with her blue tooth on (talking to her boyfriend)….was abducted. She was a former parole officer who was going back to school to add to her degree..and she taught classes in self defense. So, I wanted my real initials off. I have never typed online and I became scared. So I add to your warning to women to be cautious. The unspeakable, unthinkable can happen to anyone, anytime…so very sad.
Mariann you already know you have had us wetting our pants laughing. The priceless laughter shared by quiet a few was when you did come online and we teleported you to the famous “cornfield” and you landed in bra and panties almost in the middle of the campfire!
BEES KNEES, there are quiet a few trying to figure out how to make you an outfit. We want to make you that flannel gown and furry slippers, Angela wants to put your hair in curlers…someone else said let’s make her look like “Maxine”…….
A good stock tip her all……buy stock in headphones; the cheapies from Cindy’s favorite shopping place Target…I hear there is a run on them even in Canada….
I will try to get time to post some of the excellent thoughts/questions about the case that have come up from us communicating in Second Life,soon. In the meantime I am so busy trying to keep up the reading here and helping people get set up on Second Life….whew, I have such a busy social life :)….my southern drawl is really giving one poster in Canada nightmares!
Angela is working on the Ping island now!
Blink, you are one helluva wonderful person, in case no one has told you lately……:)
If the ’she’s innocent’ claim does not work at trial, they’re (Casey is) screwed!!!!
On the other hand, if they get a hung jury or if this ‘I’m innocent’ idea can be blamed on inept councel who didn’t wait before making such claims or nailing themselves down, to such claims, BEFORE waiting to see if the DP would be back on the table (ie after body found), AND if they succeed in having the fraud charges delayed until after trial, they can surely get Casey home as she awaits appeal.
Can a claim of inadequate counsel be claimed because Baez made those innocent statements, had his team members echo the same in the media cameras? (Linda K-B said it, ToddyMacs said it when he ‘rode into town’ last spring)
Or is there time to repair this, from an appeal standpoint now that Ms. Lyon is on board? (or is an appeal now inevitable if the incompetent (including Toddy Mac for lack of DP or even murder case, experience making these ‘INNOCENT’ blurbs) lawyers went beyond the point of no return on this (and repeated, repeated, even now with dp on board)?
Maura, yes, seems Baez was stupid in his choice of words for a client that may be sticking to the 100% innocent position. Even if Casey is sticking to her story, 100% innocent, it was still at that point ‘months’ before trial with a body found which could bring a DP decision back. So Baez should have quit playing the media, having his puppet Linda K-B, QUIT spouting same, neither is a DP qualified attorney PERIOD. Instead of playing ‘themselves’ to the media and using this case to do same, they should have held off of their defense position by choosing words, as you say, more carefully.
So what, doesn’t matter what the client says at this point– because the trial was never just around the corner, they had time, the client was not going to the media or going out in public and had no way of saying to the public ‘I’m innocent and that’s what I’ll do at trial’. The lawyers should have had the skills to choose alternate words. Because this limits the client’s own option, to say a year from now, ‘not guilty’ that does not tie her to ‘innocent’.
in the public, Ms. Lyon’s prestigious reputation may take some scraping before this is over– because she’s supposed to be the one to call the shots, and just because she came in too late, doesn’t mean she won’t take a beating over this, if they don’t win absolutely, on the ‘INNOCENT’ claim.
It’s a year from trial, what’s the rush to give the defense theory now??? They could have shut up in the hearing, withdrawn the motion to ‘announce to the cameras’ why client is proven innocent already.
Silver said, “She is clearly committed to fighting what she sees as an impermissible use of power by the State”…
In essence if Lyons is saying that they are unfairly applying a death penalty in order to get a conviction, (in bad faith, as Blink stated), then does this force the prosecution to present their case, with this motion, to prove that the decision was based on merit (evidence) and applicable laws? I am not arguing that this isn’t a step that Lyons should take, I am asking how far the prosecution has to explain/prove the decision. I know I am speaking in simplistic terms, I’m not a lawyer, I was trying to get a handle on what transpires in arguments on both sides for such a motion. If you’ve already answered this, apologies.
The majority of recent capital cases in PA which were reversed on appeal/new trial granted were based on counsel’s ineffectiveness for failing to investigate and present mitigating evidence.
Commonwealth v. Johnson (Raymond), No. 3849/99 (Berks C.P., Crim. Div. Mar. 9, 2007) (death sentence reversed for counsel’s ineffectiveness in failing to investigate and present mitigating evidence).
Commonwealth v. Thomas (LeRoy) a/k/a John Wayve, Dec. Term, 1994, No. 700 (Phila. C.P. Jan. 11, 2007) (stipulated penalty-phase relief for counsel’s ineffectiveness in failing to investigate and present mitigating evidence)
Marshall v. Beard, No. 03-CV-795 (E.D. Pa. Jan. 10, 2007) (stipulation to grant of penalty phase relief on petitioner’s claim of penalty-phase ineffectiveness for failing to investigate and present mitigating evidence)
Crews v. Horn, 3:98-CV-1464 (M.D. Pa. Aug. 28, 2006) (stipulated grant of penalty-phase relief on claim that penalty-phase counsel was ineffective for failing to investigate and present available mitigating evidence) (re-sentenced to two life sentences)
Lewis v. Horn, No. 00-CV-802, 2006 WL 2338409, 2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 55998 (E.D. Pa. Aug. 9, 2006) (death penalty reversed for penalty-phase counsel’s ineffectiveness in failing to investigate and present available mitigating evidence concerning petitioner’s mental illness, psychosis, and personality disorder; possible borderline retardation; brain damage; emotional impairments, and history of physical, sexual, and emotional abuse as a child. Counsel’s numerous failures to present mitigating evidence included, inter alia, evidence that petitioner’s mother drank turpentine while pregnant; petitioner’s behavioral changes resulting from massive head injury sustained when father slammed petitioner’s head against a bathtub when petitioner was a young child; and episodes in which petitioner tore up his room with a knife in what he believed was a fight with Satan)
Commonwealth v. Sattazahn, No.2194-89, 2006 Pa. D&C Dec LEXIS 105 (Berks C.P., Crim. Div. June 23, 2006 (death sentence reversed for trial counsel’s ineffectiveness in failing to investigate and present available mitigating evidence, including “his background and his very significant organic brain impairment”)
Commonwealth v. Gorby, Noo. 385 Cap. App. kt., 909 A.2d 775 (Pa. June, 20, 2006) (death sentence reversed for trial counsel’s ineffectiveness in failing to investigate, develop and present life history and mental-health mitigating evidence, including evidence of childhood abuse and neglect; and a cognitive disorder diminishing, inter alia, defendant’s reasoning, judgment, and impulse control; counsel’s performance deficient for failing to interview readily available life-history witnesses, obtain medical and social history records, and explore mental health issues that were apparent from the circumstance of the offense and the defendant’s background; counsel also ineffective for failing to adequately develop a mitigation claim relating to defendant’s intoxication; and for failing to request an instruction explaining the relevance under 42 Pa. C.S. Section 9711(e)(8) of the limited evidence that counsel did present; direct appeal counsel was ineffective for failing to present any claim of trail counsel’s penalty-phase ineffectiveness)
ETC, ETC, ETC
Can’t comment on Florida.
Imo, the DP was put back on the table to increase the possibility that the defendant will take a plea. But don’t hold your breath for nolo contedere or alford. I highly doubt they will be attending this particular legal party. This, however, is where Lyon might argue the constitutionality of such a move as it could be seen as a strong-arm tactic to intimidate the defendant into a plea.
Within this “presumed” context, I would be more concerned wrt why the prosecution has chosen this direction. Bc it raises doubt wrt just how strong the their case is. Or rather, perhaps their case is not as strong as we, the public, are led to believe. Then again, I have admittedly wondered about the direction this case has taken due to the public spectacle this tragedy has become. Esp considering the degree with which OCSO seems to be trying this case in the media.
That aside, since the defense is taking the “Caylee’s remains were dumped on Suburban after Casey was already in jail,” I doubt they will challenge the nuclear dna test. I would however expect them to challenge the air test wrt scientific validity and reliability under Florida’s Frye ruling. Their ultimate goal being to cast doubt on anything that “explicitly” ties Casey to Caylee’s death and later disposal. Finding prints on the duct tape may (or not) be probative in that the defense can easily point out that duct tape is a common household item. If prints were found on the sticky side? Not so much. Same goes for finding prints on the bags and/or the contents thereof.
All in all, and in the end, regardless of what the defense does (or does not) do, the overall burden of proof rests upon the state. And at this point, I’m not seeing enough evidence that withstands the reasonable shadow of doubt test for murder in the first.
Could the defense be actually saying (without saying) that their client is ‘innocent’ of the greatest charge, but may be ‘not guilty’ by reason of some other theory, or even ‘guilty’ of one or more of the other lesser charges that do not in themselves, consitute a DP case?
Is that what could be going on with the ‘Innocent and we have evidence to prove it’ position ‘playing to the public’ via Judge Strickland’s courtroom?
From Casey’s point of view, she tends to blame others for her situation, as we have heard from the jail phonecall where she tells her mother ‘it’s not MY fault’ (that I’m in jail). (mother says ‘what do you mean it’s not your fault? ‘
So her position will be, if she has anything to do with providing the defense theories (vs what Ms. Lyon says one should allow to happen), that someone else is at fault, ‘not me’.
Is the state, and maybe Ms. Lyon too, working to get around that problem? To mitigate the ‘dp sentence’ by allowing this to play out until Casey, like Ryan Jenkins, is in a tight spot and can do nothing else but opt for a ‘my fault, but I didn’t mean it, couldn’t help it, was an accident and I made a mistake not calling’ defense, or to ‘give in’, with whatever options are at hand.
Thank you for your comments and explanations, Silver.
I can’t get over that Jury Verdict Questionnaire. I’ve never been called for jury duty, so I had no idea jurors would be faced with so many choices for a single case.
# 278-
Kleat, I have always wondered , if at a desperate point, they would cop to an accidental death, therefore, she would be “innocent ” of premeditated murder, and stating that wouldn’t be contrary to the defense statement. Why else would they have brought Mac on? Although if they go accidental, then they would have to finger someone “who placed the body there while Casey was in jail”.
And yep, # 279
Instead of courting the media every five minutes, his statements should have been limited my “My client is not guilty and we will prove that in a court of law, I have no further comments”. Cindy and George would have helped her too, if they kept a clamp on it, instead of running their mouths everywhere with conflicting statements that made Casey look more guilty.
#282-Silver, they can still press forward with accidental death and mitigating factors can include mental health issues such as a compulsive lying disorder that kept her from reporting her actions of a cover-up, or someone else who covered it up. Casey also mentioned to a few people that she thought she needed help, and was having some sort of a breakdown. They can later acknowledge that she was unfortunately previously undiagnosed with some sort of a disorder, through an expert witness.
Re: post # 277
A big shout out to Blinker Pedalo, Boots, et al for their kind and patient assist today getting set up in the cornfield on Virtual Juror, Second Life. I am almost wired and ready for more case discussion.
The ability to have real time give and take on case issues is a valuable tool for analysis. Everyone seems to bring little areas of expertise to this Virtual Table. It totally exceeded my expectations.
Thanks to Angela and of course Blink for setting this up.
Now OFF to snag that microphone from Target. Thisbe Capelo
Maura, never called for jury duty?? Neither have I, but isn’t it a strange co-incidence that Casey had been called for jury duty, what did she say, every year? (that would be of her adult/voting age life, which would be from March 19, 2004??? Of course, she was called but never actually had to take part, so her story goes. That’s 4 years 4 calls to jury duty for Ms. Casey (or was it once every couple years). Still seems a lot for a young person, just starting adult life.
Maybe she got a call and embellished the number of times in her story, as she tends to do, but was she ‘thinking’ about juries for some other reason, in the months leading up to last summer??? Casey asked a lot of seemingly knowledgeable questions to LE and the FBI, about secrecy of the grand jury and why her name was ‘thrown out’ to media if it was supposed to be secret, etc, she asked about video monitoring of her ‘holding/interview’ room as she awaited arrival of her attny, she knew about routes to escape police the day she was being brought ‘in’ by her mother, driving in a manner, knew enough to give a story about ‘media’ following them, so that excused Cindy’s driving in a highly illegal and apparently ‘dangerous’ manner that the law enforcement officers and FBI said resembled a ‘vehicle take-down’ with the same adrenalin pumping ‘danger’.
Casey seemed to know a lot about legal things, for a young woman who was uneducated, unsophisticated, and who had never had, apparently, personal experience with the law before. Was she preparing for her role as ‘victim mother’ by thinking about juries, about her storyline, about how things work and what she’d have to go through, and risk to be free of her daughter?
Angela, maybe the prosecution felt that putting the dp back on the table would help with Casey realizing her situation and that she could not continue to manipulate the world with her stories, but also, the prosecution in doing this, might have well underestimated the seemingly endless resources that this young mother has at her disposal to continue to pay not just for her own lawyers, but the resources she needs in the context of a DP defense– which is substantially more demanding, as we read in Ms. Lyon’s paper, to include a large and diverse team, minimally two qualified attorneys for capital cases, forensic specialists (in this case, botanists, biologists, forensic anthropologists etc), mitigation specialist, psychiatric specialist, and then there’s the team of legal assistants, not all can be Ms. Lyon’s students, who presumably could do some research, but not advise, not be confided in as part of the team.
Ms. Casey has endless monetary resources, only tied to her ability to squeeze from her baby’s body, the blood money. But she may also have been able to put aside money from criminal activities, including funneling money from her mother’s credit card purchases into her own little cash cache hidden away somewhere. (not criminal, because he mother will never make that accusation– it’s ‘not relevant’)
#289 “Casey seemed to know a lot about legal things”….
Does she have a juvenile record that is sealed? Maybe she has had a taste of being on the wrong side of law enforcement.
BTW…
YES… AS OTHERS SAID, THANK YOU BLINK FOR CREATING THIS INTERESTING PLACE WHERE EVERYONE CAN BOUNCE IDEAS BACK & FORTH.
That needed to be in a gigantic font, but alas, I am limited.
ArgentinaRose, from what I’ve gathered Casey can make money up until the time of her conviction. Not after. I’m not sure if there are restrictions on George & Cindy (other than moral and ethical ones!!!)
Shelly, I’ll see you there (I hope) tomorrow. My sister’s going to help me “find” you all! I am sooo looking forward to it. Love the costume ideas!
To Blink’s suggestion that something was found by Cindy that caused her concern, on July 3rd. Maura’s timeline info says:
“Casey never identified “her” by name, but Cindy told OCSO on August 1 that Casey told Cindy on July 3 that Casey sent Juliet to the house that afternoon to pick up some items for Casey, who was in Jacksonville.”
Cindy will claim that this conversation would have taken place by telephone, to fit the discovery records, no doubt, if that fits. Otherwise, she would have to do some explaining about computer and cell phone deletions of the text and email messages from Casey for that date.
This also might have led Cindy to try to get a hold of the Jeff that she knew in Jacksonville on or after that date.
Had Casey perhaps, in the months before mid-June, told her mother about big work events for July 4th she might be involved in planning perhaps? (no basis for this, but it might have caused concern for Cindy, if Casey was in Jacksonville when she had some Universal work committments for that July 4th, which is reasonable, since Cindy may have wanted the whole family to go with Caylee to fireworks and that would likely cause Casey to have alternate work committments as an excuse). But she did not bring Caylee home to go with Cindy and George, either way.
Why haven’t you posted the information on the boot found that is probably Tracy Ocasio’s?
AGAIN, YOUR IN THE WRONG THREAD.. THERE’S SEVERAL LINKS.
B
# 290
As much as you have some fine points as to the reasons for the prosecution’s direction, (and a sense of balance, karma-wise),they can not arbitrarily decide to impose a consideration of a penalty, such as death, merely as a means to elicit a guilty plea , or to get a ’sure-up’ on their chances for a conviction; nor attempt to balance the scales of justice because one is lucky enough to have a “wall of defense” ( more so than the average ‘Joe Shmoe’ , who gets an overworked public defender). This was asserted by Silver, others, in a more legally sophisticated verse, prior. They may have good intentions, but they can not , (which Lyon will argue), manufacture a death penalty option, without proper circumstances such as STRONG evidence of premeditation.
I suppose I may finally be getting the points, that these ladies ( Maura , Silver, Angela) made earlier: yes ? (BTW,thanks for all of your assistance in SL. Angela, you are amazing and fun).
So, the prosecution may be forced to present their case, and prove, with merit, (through evidence) that there was a legally justifiable reason to option the death penalty.
Us’dumb folk’ take some time to get it….duh
Someone , please argue a prosecution standpoint, for balance.
The state must be possessing some key evidence that will only be brought up in the trial, or has already been released to the defense, and Baez is just sitting on it for awhile. They obviously have some solid evidence against Casey, otherwise I don’t think that the grand jury would have brought the first degree murder charge in a matter of only 40 minutes. They have something. My opinion, ofcourse
Maura-
Check this out.
A recent Florida case with a mother charged with several similar counts, to wit: murder, aggravated manslaughter of a child, aggravated child abuse and neglect of a child.
So much for my carefully crafted jury verdict form!
Here, the jury found the mom/defendant guilty of ALL counts (huh??)
AND–the judge actually sentenced her on ALL counts.
The problem with that?
VIOLATION OF DOUBLE JEOPARDY.
Why?
Because per the Florida statutory definitions of Murder and Aggravated Manslaughter, the charge of Aggravated Manslaughter is (what Florida refers to as) a “necessarily lesser included offense” (vs. a permissive lesser included offense).
How can a jury find someone guilty of the greater crime AND the lesser included offense?
(because the jury verdict form was not clear)
How can a judge sentence a defendant on BOTH of those crimes at the same time??
He can, but he will be reversed on appeal.
Lest anyone be concerned, the defendant-mom in the case I am referring to is still sentenced to life on the murder charge. The conviction/sentence on the lesser included offense of Aggravated Manslaughter, however, was vacated (not that it assists the convicted mom in any way).
Check it out:
IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF APPEAL OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA
FIFTH DISTRICT JULY TERM 2004
CANDY LOVELL,
Appellant,
v. CASE NO. 5D03-3786
STATE OF FLORIDA,
Appellee.
___________________________________/
Opinion filed September 24, 2004
Appeal from the Circuit Court
for Brevard County,
Warren Burk, Judge.
James B. Gibson, Public Defender, and
Lyle Hitchens, Assistant Public Defender,
Daytona Beach, for Appellant.
Charles J. Crist, Jr., Attorney General,
Tallahassee, and Rebecca Roark Wall,
Assistant Attorney General, Daytona Beach,
for Appellee.
MONACO, J.
Candy Lovell appeals the judgment and sentence imposed on her after being found guilty of first-degree felony murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child, and neglect of a child with great bodily harm. Because the case law leads us to the conclusion that the convictions and sentences for both first-degree murder and aggravated manslaughter of the same child violate the state and federal constitutional principle proscribing double jeopardy, we reverse the conviction of aggravated manslaughter, but otherwise affirm.
Ms. Lovell and her co-defendant, Jamie Hawkins, were tried for various offenses arising out of the death of Ms. Lovell’s young daughter, Summer. The evidence presented by the State indicated that Summer’s death was caused by multiple blunt force injuries. As a result of the application of this force to the child’s abdomen, her bladder ruptured, and urine flowed into her abdominal cavity. Although immediate treatment would have saved Summer’s life, Ms. Lovell and Mr. Hawkins delayed having her seen by medical personnel for several days.
As a result of her convictions, Ms. Lovell was sentenced to life in prison for first-degree felony murder, 25.9 years in prison for aggravated manslaughter, fifteen years in prison for neglect of a child with great bodily harm, all of which were to run concurrently, and fifteen years probation for aggravated child abuse, to run consecutive to the prison terms. As noted, Ms. Lovell argues that her convictions and sentences for first-degree murder and aggravated manslaughter violate double jeopardy.
In order to determine whether two convictions constitute a violation of the principles of double jeopardy, we are required to go beyond a simple application of the test set forth in Blockburger v. U.S., 284 U.S. 299 (1932), as codified in section 775.021, Florida Statutes (2001). Dual convictions satisfying Blockburger may still be violative of the constitution if the offenses are considered to be “degree variants of the same core offense.” See Gordon v. State, 780 So. 2d 17 (Fla. 2001); Mitchell v. State, 830 So. 2d 944, 946 (Fla. 5th DCA 2002), review denied, 845 So. 2d 892 (Fla. 2003).
We begin our analysis with the exceptions to the Blockburger test found in section 775.021(4)(b), Florida Statutes (2001). That statute provides that:
The intent of the Legislature is to convict and sentence for each criminal offense committed in the course of one criminal episode or transaction and not to allow the principle of lenity as set forth in subsection (1) to determine legislative intent. Exceptions to this rule of construction are:
1. Offenses which require identical elements of proof.
2. Offenses which are degrees of the same offense as provided by statute.
3. Offenses which are lesser offenses the statutory elements of which are subsumed by the greater offense.
In order to determine whether the second exception - the exception for degree variants - applies, one must undertake a two-step inquiry. First we must determine whether the crimes constitute separate offenses under Blockburger and section 775.021(4)(a). If so, we must determine whether the crimes are degree variants or aggravated forms of the same core offense. Gordon, 780 So. 2d at 21; Mitchell, 830 So. 2d at 946.
In the present case the crimes of first-degree felony murder and aggravated manslaughter are separate offenses under Blockburger because each crime contains an element that the other does not. A conviction for felony murder in the present case required the State to prove that the death of the child occurred during the commission of the felony of aggravated child abuse. Aggravated manslaughter, however, only required proof that the child died as a result of Ms. Lovell’s culpable negligence in failing to get medical attention for the child. In addition, it is clear that the offenses are not degrees of the same offense, nor is one offense a lesser offense subsumed by the greater.
We must now consider whether the two offenses are degree variants or aggravated forms of core offenses. Both crimes are proscribed by Chapter 782 of the Florida Statutes, entitled Homicide. Both are addressed to, and punish the same evil, the perpetration of an act leading to death. Both involve one of the core crimes, homicide. Using this analysis, we held in Mitchell that dual convictions for attempted second-degree murder and attempted felony murder were barred by the prohibition against double jeopardy. Finally, we consider the following language of the Florida Supreme Court in Gordon:
“We have held repeatedly that section 775.021 did not abrogate our previous pronouncements concerning punishments for singular homicides. (Citations omitted). Indeed, this principle is based on notions of fundamental fairness which recognize the inequity that inheres in multiple punishments for a singular killing.
Gordon at 25. See also State v. Chapman, 625 So. 2d 838, 839 (Fla. 1993) (multiple convictions for singular homicides are impermissible); Houser v. State, 474 So. 2d 1193 (Fla. 1985) (only one homicide conviction and sentence may be imposed for a single death).
Accordingly, we conclude that Ms. Lovell should not have been convicted and sentenced for both first-degree felony murder and aggravated manslaughter of a child for the death of her daughter. We, therefore, vacate only the conviction and sentence for aggravated manslaughter of a child. While we have considered the other arguments raised by Ms. Lovell in this appeal, we conclude that they are without merit, and thus affirm the judgment and sentences in all respects other than for aggravated manslaughter.
AFFIRMED in part, REVERSED in part.
THOMPSON and PLEUS, JJ., concur.
I apolly in advance for starting a response to one of your finely posts with “Dang”-
But “Dang”-
I sat in a meeting Fri where this very case was discussed, your automatic silver, impressive.
B
oh oh, Blink goes CAPS!!
LOL
B
#295 WSH - I think I just got this point today too after reading (and having to re-read) all of the comments and links about the prosecution strategy and seeing it clinically and legally speaking - and not emotionally. I’m not a death penalty proponent but there are days when I hope the thought of it hanging over her head (Casey) gives her more than a little anxiety.
I now understand that the DP has to be rare, pursued with integrity and must be able to stand all on its own and why it can’t and shouldn’t be used as a bargaining tool by the prosecution. If they’re going to put it on the table - they had better be fully confident that the evidence supports it.
Without Baez’s antics I think I would be able to look at the defense strategy with a little bit more objectivity but even an amateur like me can see that he’s not the sharpest knife in the drawer and wears his rookie status on his sleeve. We talk so much about the defense team and their strategies - and we’ve all heard so much from the prosecution (too much) in the media. It would be nice if some of the big brains here would go into what they think their strategy is - and alternative strategies they may or may not use depending upon responding to defense changes.
westside raises a point that all should consider
Can justice be served in this case without the (option of the) death penalty?
I would urge people to consider the fact that the death penalty–for many years– was entirely outlawed in the U.S.
(Highly recommended reading: “The Executioner’s Song”; “Shot in the Heart”)
Amazon.com Review
The Executioner’s Song is a work of unprecedented force. It is the true story of Gary Gilmore, who in 1977 became the first person executed in the United States since the reinstitution of the death penalty. Gilmore, a violent yet articulate man who chose not to fight his death-penalty sentence, touched off a national debate about capital punishment. He allowed Norman Mailer and researcher Lawrence Schiller complete access to his story. Mailer took the material and produced an immense book with a dry, unwavering voice and meticulous attention to detail on Gilmore’s life–particularly his relationship with Nicole Baker, whom Gilmore claims to have killed. What unfolds is a powerful drama, a distorted love affair, and a chilling look into the mind of a murderer in his countdown with a firing squad.
Amazon.com Review
“I have a story to tell. It is a story of murder told from inside the house where murder is born. It is the house where I grew up, a house that, in some ways, I have never been able to leave.”
Mikal Gilmore is a Rolling Stone writer and the youngest brother of murderer Gary Gilmore, who became, in 1977, the first person to be executed in the United States after a 10-year hiatus, a case which was subsequently recounted in Norman Mailer’s The Executioner’s Song. This brave and eloquent book is the story that only Mikal Gilmore knows: the violence in multiple generations of his family, what the Gilmore house was like as he was growing up, his relationship with his brother, and his experience of the dramatic events surrounding Gary Gilmore’s determination to be executed as planned, without appeal. Shot in the Heart pulls off the rare feat of conveying intense emotion without sentimentality or self-pity. The author’s struggle is to set himself apart from the lurid true-crime fraternity of his father and brothers yet remain able to understand why he feels both guilty and lonely over his exclusion from his family’s violent history. –Fiona Webster
Blink, I have sent email to you and Angela and both have bounced back numerous times.
PP- I emailed you at this addy, I dont know what email your referring to, but mine has not changed. If your referring to SL, I have not had 3 seconds to stop in there even to put on shoes I whined about.
Your a valuable reader and contributor here.
B
I have sent Angela an email via the VR Hacks forum and I have registered at both SL and VR Hacks. However if anyone else can help me tomorrow (monday) navigate into where I should be on SL, I will greatly appreciate it. My name: Lula Loopen.
Also I am on an Imac G5 (almost 4 yrs old) and checked the min requirements via the graphics card: mine is Nvidia GeForce 5200 - not sure yet if it is ok for SL (not mentioned on list). Question re: Mac: how do we Macs handle left-click right-click issues? Thanks.
Blink #297
You ask, you get;) lol (ok–Maura asked;)
Yeah… except I didn’t properly explain the court’s rationale.
They went with the degree variant exception as set forth in the exceptions to the Blockburger test found in section 775.021(4)(b)
*it was truly gorgeous here yesterday–for a change–what a summer of rain–, and I was not giving up riding time, so kindly pardon my hastily written posts
In any event, the jury will be asked to determine whether Casey is guilty/not guilty of murder OR of aggravated manslaughter.
# 296-
You never know Todd, all the lawyers on TV constantly say that “a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich”. The burden of proof is much lower and there is no counter from the defense. I would like to read what Padilla, etal have to say in their transcripts.
Kleat, sorry I missed your earlier post, and yes, I have an older Mac. I took the SL program off & put it on an ext. HD, for now.
# 297- Geez, as dense as I am, even I recognize that the 1st degree murder and manslaughter charges are mutually exclusive. How did the judge let that slide?
# 299-Lily, thanks for making me feel better about not comprehending all these points earlier. I was prepared to sit in the corner with my dunce cap on. Well, maybe I still am. lol!
The Notice of Intent to Seek the Penalty of Death avers that “sufficient aggravating circumstances exist to justify the imposition of the Death Penalty pursuant to Florida Statute 921.141″. The Notice does not enumerate which of the aggravating factors apply, but we can fairly easily surmise that they include the following:
HEINOUS, ATROCIOUS OR CRUEL (HAC)***EXPECT THIS TO BE A KEY LYON ATTACK*** (she has her work cut out for her–keep reading)
The capital felony was especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel.
There has been much activity about the constitutionality of this aggravating factor, and aggravating factors similarly worded from other states. U. S. Supreme Court cases need to be read to fully understand the problems with this factor.
Espinosa v. Florida, 505 U.S. 1079, 112 S. Ct. 2926, 120 L. Ed. 2d 854 (1992).
Sochor v. Florida, 504 U.S. 527, 112 S. Ct. 2114, 119 L. Ed. 2d 326 (1992).
Proffitt v. Florida, 428 U.S. 242, 96 S. Ct. 2960, 49 L. Ed. 2d 913 (1976).
(these are just the Florida cases; there are numerous additional cases from other States as well)
The issue presented in these cases is whether the words selected in the statute can withstand a vagueness challenge. The aggravating circumstance must narrow the class of cases eligible for the death penalty.
The Supreme Court of Florida thought this vagueness challenge was solved when the Standard Jury Instruction was amended to include the entire Dixon instruction the Court believed had been approved in the Proffitt case along with Florida’s present Standard Jury Instruction defining heinous, atrocious or cruel. However, a careful reading of the United States Supreme Court cases suggests the entire Dixon instruction is not acceptable. The definitions in Florida’s jury instruction have been previously struck down by the United States Supreme Court as vague. Proffitt approved only this part of the Dixon instruction: “. . . the conscienceless or pitiless crime which is unnecessarily torturous to the victim.”
The following statement in Sochor v. Florida, appears to support the
argument that the United States Supreme Court does not approve of the entire Dixon instruction:
“Sochor contends, however, that the State Supreme Court’s post Proffitt cases
have not adhered to Dixon’s limitation as stated in Proffitt, but instead evince inconsistent and over broad constructions that leave a trial court without sufficient guidance. And we may well agree with him that the Supreme Court of Florida has not confined its discussions on the matter to the Dixon language we approved in Proffitt, but has on occasion continued to invoke the entire Dixon statement, quoted above (which as “quoted above” is the present Florida Standard Jury Instruction), perhaps thinking that Proffitt approved it all.”
The Supreme Court of Florida has not interpreted Sochor to require elimination of the vague definitions in its jury instructions, but seems to believe that, as long as the whole instruction is given,it will pass constitutional muster.
The United States Supreme Court may or may not agree.
The possibility of error will be eliminated if the defense requests a particular HAC instruction and it is given. If the defense objects to the vagueness of the present Standard Instruction, the entire Standard Instruction can be given and get past the Supreme Court of Florida, or the portion approved by Proffitt (quoted above) can be given and get past the Federal Courts. But trial judges are required to read the entire standard instruction. In fact, trial judges have been directed to read fully all
applicable Standard Jury Instructions, unless a legal justification exists to modify the instruction.
Getting beyond the constitutional problems, what types of cases will and will not allow a finding of this circumstance?
The Supreme Court of Florida has held this circumstance would apply “only in torturous murders–those that evince extreme and outrageous depravity as exemplified either by the desire to inflict a high degree of pain or utter indifference to or enjoyment of the suffering of another.” But the Court has upheld death sentences where the victim was conscious for merely seconds.
After Sochor, the Supreme Court of Florida has held that, for this factor to apply, the crime must be both conscienceless or pitiless and unnecessarily torturous to the victim. Interestingly, the Supreme Court of Florida has held that it is not necessary to establish the element of “intent” before finding
the HAC aggravating circumstance. It is enough if the killer is utterly indifferent to the suffering of another. This “blanket statement” is by no means accepted by all of the justices.
HAC is among “the most weighty in Florida’s sentencing calculus.” In Butler v. State, HAC was the only aggravator, and the death penalty was approved.
HAC does not apply to most instantaneous deaths, or deaths that occur fairly quickly. But See Francis v. State, 808 So. 2d 110 (Fla. 2001); Nelson v. State, 748 So. 2d 237 (Fla. 1999);Hall v. State, 614 So. 2d 473 (Fla. 1993); Preston v. State, 607 So. 2d 404 (Fla. 1992).
Fear, emotional strain, and terror of the victim during events leading up to the murder may allow an otherwise quick death to become heinous, atrocious or cruel. The Court has held that HAC can only be found in torturous murders–those that evince extreme and outrageous depravity as
exemplified either by the desire to inflict a high degree of pain or the utter indifference to or enjoyment of the suffering of another.
Like other aggravating circumstances, HAC must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and cannot be left to conjecture or speculation. There must be evidence in the record that establishes the facts that justify a finding of HAC.
It is important to note that nothing done to a victim after the victim is dead or unconsciousness, including that which would otherwise qualify as heinous, atrocious or cruel, can be used to support this circumstance. (This is not universally true. At least one state, Tennessee, makes
mutilating a dead body an aggravating factor.)
*****Strangulation Deaths*****
Both the Supreme Court of Florida and the United States Supreme Court agree the “strangulation of a conscious victim involves foreknowledge of death, extreme anxiety, and fear, and this method of killing is one to which the factor of heinousness is applicable. Strangulation deaths present a prima facie case for HAC.
***What was that about the Hyoid bone?***
COLD, CALCULATED AND PREMEDITATED
The capital felony was a homicide and was committed in a cold, calculated, and
premeditated manner without any pretense of moral or legal justification (CCP).
This circumstance is as confusing as it is subjective. In 1994, the Supreme Court of Florida declared the Standard Jury Instruction defining this aggravating factor to be unconstitutionally vague. The Jackson case requires a definition of terms to be read to the jury and used by the judge
in applying this factor. These definitions are now part of the Standard Jury Instructions and have been held sufficient to withstand constitutional attack.
Some definitions that may be helpful to understand this aggravator are:
“Cold” means “calm, cool reflection, and not an act prompted by emotional frenzy, panic, or a fit of rage.”
“Calculated” means the defendant had a “careful plan or prearranged design to
commit the murder.” A careful plan or prearranged design to kill is required–not a careful plan to commit another crime and a killing also takes place.
“Premeditated” is more than that required to prove first-degree, premeditated
murder. It is “heightened premeditation.”
“Heightened premeditation” is defined as “deliberate ruthlessness.”
This definition is dangerous to use because it sounds like HAC, and the Supreme Court did not use it in the newly adopted Standard Jury
Instruction.
VICTIM LESS THAN 12 YEARS OF AGE
The victim of the capital felony was a person less than twelve years of age.
This aggravating circumstance was enacted in 1997 and is self-explanatory.
VICTIM PARTICULARLY VULNERABLE DUE TO AGE
The victim of the capital felony was particularly vulnerable due to advanced age or disability, or because the defendant stood in a position of familial or custodial authority over the victim.
*****
I expect a flurry of Motions from Lyon.
Motion to Declare Florida’s Death Penalty Statute Unconstitutional. (Should be DENIED. See Reynolds. v. State; Winkles v. State; Lugo v. State; Kormandy v. State; Owen v. State; Floyd v. State; San Martin v. State; Fotopoulos v. State)
Motion to Declare Section 921.141 and/or 921.141 (5)(h) and/or the standard (5)(h) instruction unconstitutional facially and as applied. (Will be DENIED at trial court level,-see Randolph v. State; Chandler v. State, but could reach the U.S. Supreme Court–as noted above. Note: This is the HAC statutory aggravating factor, and I predict that Lyon will argue that this factor, and the corresponding jury instruction, are “vague” and “overly broad”, and are “applied in an arbitrary and capricious manner”.
Motion to Declare Florida’s Capital Sentencing Statute Unconstitutional based on violations of the United States and Florida Constitutions. (Should be DENIED-see Schoenwetter v. State; Foster v. State; Brown v. State)
and many others…
*****
#130 ProvokingPoirot
Re: Second Life
Angela says to try to download Second Life. Unless you have a really dinosaur sitting on your computer desk, you should be okay to join us in the “cornfield”. Don’t worry about searching for drivers, ect. just try to download.
Lula Loopen, you are set and ready. Several have mac’s and are there to help you along. Remember the vrHacks board is to help us with Second Life.
http://forum.vrhacks.net/showthread.php?p=941#post941
And all you Blink posters your ears must be red. We talk about what all you are posting.
WSH Angela says “come on back”.
Silver
If Lyon is going to file all of those motions, and it takes some time for cases to get to the supreme court level, particularly the US Supreme Court, then this trial could be YEARS away, no?
They can’t look for jurors, in the meanwhile, for a trial that has an undetermined penalty, I would assume.
Casey will be stewing in jail, for all that time.
Unless…She is going to file another motion for bond???
SECOND LIFE
PP Angela says she communicated with you last night, so hope you got the communication line open :).
Providing this Second Life is wonderful and we owe Angela and Blink a great big hug for doing it. Angela has taken time away from setting up the scene’s (such as the Ping Site) to teach us how to help her by now helping you guys get to the site and get the help you need.
Don’t give up yet! Angela has added new things to the house to listen too. That’s one of Blink’s little ways of giving you a tidbit and you have to search for the meaning
There are so many people with tech skills that have joined and can probably help. Come on over and post your problems and we will try to help you along to the good ole cornfield with a secret “keg” and a sushi bar even. As Blink says….wink
http://forum.vrhacks.net/index.php
Shelly (aka Blinker Pedalo in my “Second Life”)
Shelly,
I have been to the second life. I have tried the vrhacks. I have been waiting to be accepted. I did what you said last week when you were at the airport. I clicked on Angelas name and didn’t see anyway of emailing her to accept me.
304 WSH
Re: “a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich”
I chuckle every time I hear that, but the reality is intelligent prosecutors do not bring cases before grand juries unless sufficient evidence exists to support the charges. That is why the great majority, but not all, grand jury hearings result in true bills.
From Wikipedia (because I found this so interesting last October when we were all looking up information on grand juries):
“Grand juries are today virtually unknown outside the United States. England abandoned grand juries in 1933 and instead uses a committal procedure, as do all Australian jurisdictions. In Australia, although the State of Victoria maintains provisions for a grand jury in the Crimes Act 1958 under section 354 Indictments, it has been used on rare occasions by individuals to bring other persons to court seeking them to be committed for trial on indictable offenses. New Zealand abolished the grand jury in 1961. Canada abolished it in the 1970s. Today approximately half of the states in the U.S. employ them,[7] and only twenty-two require their use, to varying extents.[8] Most jurisdictions have abolished grand juries, replacing them with the preliminary hearing at which a judge hears evidence concerning the alleged offenses and makes a decision on whether the prosecution can proceed.”
In Florida, state prosecutors are only required to use grand juries to try capital offences (offenses for which the death penalty could be imposed).
#295 (my own)
Kleat
I just read my own post from last night , and I hope that you didn’t think that I was including you as “dumb folk’, like me. Sometimes I write things , go through the thread & read them again, and they aren’t completely the thought that I was trying to relay. Just wanted to get that across to you, you are one of the brilliant ones. It just makes me dumber lol!
WSH wrote, “Geez, as dense as I am, even I recognize that the 1st degree murder and manslaughter charges are mutually exclusive. How did the judge let that slide?”
Silver’s recent posts explain that Florida is required to offer the jury a lesser charge to first degree murder. It wasn’t an error to include the aggravated manslaughter charge; it was a legal requirement. The jury must be given a choice of greated and lesser charges when rendering a verdict in a capital case.
Let’s assume Casey’s jury quickly concurs that Caylee Anthony died of a homicide and that Casey Anthony, and Casey Anthony alone, committed the homicide of Caylee Anthony. The jury will then have to decide whether the homicide was first degree murder (homicide WITH premeditation and intent) OR aggravated manslaughter (homicide WITHOUT premeditation and intent).
311 post to WSH
Sorry, WSH. I just realized you were probably referring to the judge in the Lovell case, not to Judge Strickland.
The judge in the Lovell case apparently erred by failing to give the jury clear instructions. Either he was too daft to understand the contradictory verdicts or perhaps he realized the problem when the contradictory verdicts were rendered, but he was required to let the appellate court resolve the problem.
WSH, right– Ms. Lyon, IF she goes by what she states in her own paper, she will file a motion for every single thing that there is a good-faith basis for filing, especially the one she will apparently file next, which goes after the very DP charge, itself. (But then, she didn’t follow her own advice on the point of claiming LE has the ‘wrong guy’ which she says to think carefully about when there is still many months to think about making that claim public– obviously allowing that to continue via Todd Macs even in the last hearing she didn’t think this through– barn door or not, it was repeated publicly now that she is on board, and can be excused away as some rants of a non-criminal lawyer with talents not in the DP area).
What is next for September: (please revise, or repeat the list and make additions– I’m not sayin’…. this is all, just off the top of my head)
1. Expect a major motion from Ms. Lyon to have DP removed.
2. Expect a hearing on the 90 page motion filed the day before the last hearing, as mentioned by Judge Stan that would not be dealt with along with the other motions but would be done at a later date)
3. Expect the state to release the LE intereviews with the Padilla’s et al– will this be in the form of transcripts to be requested of the court? Or will it be transcript and/or taped interviews (redacted possibly)?
4. Expect a decision about the trial date for Ms. Huizinga and the state’s case of fraud. If held indefinitely as per Ms. Lyon wishes (what does it mean– murder trial over– appeals too?? that could be years, so why bother even going to trial– Ms. Lyon may hope that they just drop the case as her client has already done the time, already paid back money to the bank). (but what if the bank decides to press charges against Casey– if the state fails to get a trial date– the bank reserved the right to do that even though most of the money was paid back)
5. MORGAN n’ MORGAN and their attempts to have their own case moved forward, having lost attempts at deposing the Anthony’s owing to the Anthony’s successful avoidance repeatedly, to allow their questions to be dealt with by Judge Rodriguez. A hearing date is set in September isn’t it? Will this be once again, manipulated by George and Cindy and Brad Conway, to cause further delays because this whole case is irrelevant, because they are too stressed to appear for a depo and when they do, they refuse to answer, they refuse to come before the judge for decisions on these questions, they then hit the media again, so all their refusals were based on lies about stress. (and George storms NeJame’s press conference, then says ‘he wants the truth, wants to know what happened’– so why be so rude and create drama, if that’s the case. He’s manipulating everyone’s attention on poor George again and it’s wearing very very very thin). (ok…. I know ‘very’ isn’t necessary even once, but I didn’t use ‘absolutely’ three times!)
What else??? Can we create a list of what is to happen this month?
Anyone take bets on whether Judge Rodriguez will take hold of the Anthony leash or let them run his court yet again?
Cindee from Wisconsin please come to vrhacks board and leave your second life name and we will get you in. We cant find you in Second Life and add you to the Virtual Jurior group unless we know your second life name
http://forum.vrhacks.net/index.php
Have they released any more of the most recent discovery documents? I have one more question for ‘the experts’. I was reading LA’s testimony and he mentioned that when the police were looking through Casey’s wallet (when Cindy took out Amy’s money), the police removed an ID. I think I remember Amy getting stopped by the police around the same time that Zenaida Gonzales got a seat belt violation ticket (I think). If Casey had found Zenaida’s ID, can the prosecutors withold that evidence?
ada, wasn’t Amy, was Annie. Casey found ‘which’ Zenaida’s ID??? The Zenaida who was supposed to be the nanny, a real nanny? The Zenaida who had an office break in??? Or some other real Zenaida?
Or a fake ID in the name of ZG which then became ZFG as Casey embellished her story?
I am sorry. It was not Amy but Annie Downing who got a ticket in May 2008 and Zenaida Gonzales got one on the same day. I know a lot of underage kids that have fake IDs to get into bars. http://scaredmonkeys.com/2009/01/16/zenaida-gonzalez-annie-leigh-downing%E2%80%99s-excellent-adventure-zannie-and-annie-go-to-traffic-court/
Silver, thanks for providing 297 and 305.
I have been trying, without success, to find more information about the felony murder of the young daughter of Candy Lovell. I can’t find anything about the original jury trial for this case. The only information I could find was the appellate decision you posted.
The child’s death occurred on June 3, 1998. Her name was Summer, her age is unknown to me, but she was described as Candy Lovell’s “young daughter,” so she was at least under the age of 12 and was possibly quite young.
The child died apparently from several blunt force injuries from a severe beating she received from Candy and Jamie. That made the child’s death a felony murder, which is a death penalty offence in Florida. Both Candy Lovell and Jamie Hawkins are imprisoned on LWOP sentences, but I cannot find information online to indicate whether the prosecutors in Brevard County sought the death penalty (but didn’t get it) or if they waived the option to seek death prior to the trial.
Relative to the discussion of aggravating factors, there was more than sufficient evidence of HAC in the Lovell case, the child victim was likely under the age of 12, and the child victim was killed, in part, by the abusive actions of the child’s primary caretaker in combination with the mother’s failure to seek medical help for the child until it was too late to save her.
So did the Brevard County prosecutors seek the DP since the crime was a capital offence and the aggravating circumstances in the Lovell case were arguably more easily proved with regard to the HAC nature of the offence than the currently are in the Casey Anthony case? And if they did not, why didn’t they?
In the Casey Anthony case, the ME could not tell what caused the death of Caylee Anthony. The ME could say there was no trauma to the bones and there were no drugs found in the toxicology test. The duct tape could have been placed on Caylee after death to stage a kidnapping. If Caylee died of a chloroform overdose, her death may not have been intentional nor would being knocked out with chloroform necessarily have been emotionally traumatic or physically painful to Caylee.
My point is that the HAC factor, following the Court’s opinion that “HAC can only be found in torturous murders–those that evince extreme and outrageous depravity as exemplified either by the desire to inflict a high degree of pain or the utter indifference to or enjoyment of the suffering of another” does not necessarily apply in this case. It may apply in this case, but if it does, the HAC factor is not nearly as evident here as it was in the Lovell case.
Kleat
I don’t know which Zenaida. In earlier posts it said that Annie knew a Zenaida Gonzales whose birth date was January 11, 1986. I was curious about whose ID was removed from behind Casey’s driver’s license in her wallet and could that info be withheld under Fl. Sunshine Laws.
318 Ada
Lee did not say he knew an ID had been removed by a deputy from Casey’s wallet. He said the deputy removed something white that was shaped like an ID, but Lee never saw what the white thing was that the deputy removed.
Here’s what Lee said during his July 29 OCSO interview:
Pages 24-25
“So as the officer comes back inside the house when my mother already has the wallet open and is continuing to go through the wallet that’s when my mother is showing the officer, “Look, this is my J.C. Penney card that she took from me. Look, this another card that she took from me. But as my uhm mother went to take out my sister’s identification from that little sleeved, you know that clear sleeve that you can see through, uhm, immediately the officer’s hand went in there and grabbed something that was behind that i.d. (identification). It looked to me white like the old style driver’s license, or learner’s permit or something like that. That’s what I assumed. But it struck me and I noticed it because of how quickly the officer went in and grabbed that. Uhm, I couldn’t tell you for sure what it that was, but…..”
(snipped)
“… that the officer grabbed. But if, again I can only attest to I saw one driver’s license. It’s looks a lot like the newer versions like, you know, mine. It has all those holograms and stuff on it. Uhm, aside from whatever that other more predominately white, I, I’m just calling it…”
“…an i.d. because it was shaped as one and I’m, that’s my best guess on what it would have been. But I did not see any other form of identification in there whatsoever.”
***
The SAO must hand over every item they reviewed for discovery purposes even if the SAO does not plan to use the item as evidence. For instance, during a search of the Anthony house, LE took a photo of a page from Casey’s diary but did not take the diary itself. The photo was given to the SAO. Because the photo had been handed over the SAO in relation to the case, the SAO was required to share it with Baez.
We don’t know what that white thing was that the deputy removed from Casey’s wallet. We don’t know if the deputy took it into evidence or put it back with Casey’s things after consulting with another LE about it (that’s a possibility). If it was taken into evidence, then it was shared with the SAO, and the SAO is legally required to share it with Baez.
If it was left at the Anthony house, then I would expect that the deputy mentioned the incident and item in her follow-up report. I assume the deputy was Adriana Acevedo - the only female LEO I know who was in the house that night. I have not seen the reports from the responding deputies in the discovery as yet.
I don’t think that Annie has ever stated that she knew a Zenaida, nor anyone who was a ‘nanny’ for Casey other than those friends when the baby was younger. I think this was Annie’s position in her interviews with LE and her deposition with Zenaida Gonzalez’s lawyer.
I’m guessing that if the ID gives exculpatory evidence, goes to show Casey’s ‘innocence’ or mediates her guilt, they could never withhold that information from the defense. But if Casey had stolen or fake ID in her wallet, if no one ‘planted’ it there, Casey herself would know about it and could tell her defense attorney about it. So presumably, Casey already knows what she had in her wallet, so it should not be new info to the defense.
that’s JMHO, except for the Annie knowing a Zenaida. (of course, Annie may have heard of a ZG in that moving violation, but we have no details on that yet– clearly Annie wasn’t being completely truthful with Zenaida’s lawyers IF Casey was in the car with her that day, or that there were two seatbelt violations at once. We’ll have to see how this plays out and why two tickets for the same traffic stop with only one ‘Annie’ on board).
If the state has this info, you bet it won’t come out right away– why, when Casey would know about it all if she was with Annie as in Blink’s ‘theory’, no need to tell her about it).
Maura, you have probably already looked in here (and I’m not sure it actually houses the info you are looking for) but just in case, you can get info on Jamie Hawkins’ case number 05-1998-CF-016951-BXXX-XX at this link http://webinfo4.brevardclerk.us/facts/d_charges.cfm?CaseNumber=#SearchCaseNo
Old Case Number: 98-16951-CFB
Trial motions don’t go directly to the US Supreme Court, and the US Supreme Court only accepts about 100 cases a year out of the 7,000 or so that they are asked to hear.
The US Supreme Court will only agree to hear a case for very compelling reasons, such as (from the Court’s Rule 10):
to resolve a conflict in the interpretation of a federal law or a provision of the federal Constitution
to correct an egregious departure from the accepted and usual course of judicial proceedings
to resolve an important question of federal law, or to expressly review a decision of a lower court that conflicts directly with a previous decision of the Court.
Moreover, the US Supreme Court only accepts petitions for cases that have reached the end of the line in whatever appeals process is available for that particular case relative to the matter of the petition the US Supreme Court is being asked to review. For instance, in the Anthony case, Lyon could not file a petition with the US Supreme Court until Casey’s murder trial has concluded and Lyon has gone as far as she can up the ladder through the Florida Appellate Court and the Florida Supreme Court.
What Lyon is doing now, as she explained in her “life-and-death case” paper, is making a record of something she wants to happen or doesn’t want to happen by filing a motion. When she files a motion asking for X or objecting to Y, and Judge Strickland denies her request or can’t legally do anything about her objection, she has to live with it until the end of Casey’s trial. But she’s going to file the motion even if she knows nothing will change relative to the murder trial because if she doesn’t make a record of her request or objection by filing the motion now, she will not be able to argue the matter of the motion in a post-trial appeal.
PS Maura I can’t find similar info for Candy Lovell, just Jamie.
Shelly:
WSH Angela says “come on back”.
I’ll be ‘bauck’…(add Arnold accent)
I just have a number of heavy programs on my older mac, I put SL on an external hard drive for now. I just can’t leave it on, because every other program I use gets slower and wonky.
Totally out of left field, but I have been reading all of your posts and really enjoy everyones input.
My question is… I live in Orlando, and at the beginning of this case it was reported that about 2/4 days after Cindy found out Caylee was “missing” she trademarked her name. There was a lot of outrage, when the story was “authenticated” by a local news source. Since that time I haven’t seen anything else about it.
How could that be one of the first things you do when your precious child/grandchild is missing ? And if someone were to trademark her name why not her mother ? Unless you already knew that the mother was not going to be able to have any financial gain off the child in the near future.
I just wondered if the story is true. There were alot of rumors being told as facts back then also.
Anyone remember this?
Thanks, I also will be trying to get into SL tonight, wish me luck, old computer and my laptap, which is newer is suffering from a virus:-(
325 Suz
The appeal decision Silver posted gives the defendant’s name as Candy Lovell. She’s in the Florida correctional system database under the name Candy Lovall.
PS I also checked the Brevard County Clerk of Court website. The basics of the arrest dates, charges, and verdicts are available for Candy Lovell and Jamie Hawkins, but nothing else. I can’t find anything about the little girl, Summer.
Thanks Maura
(on the supreme court issue & delays in trial) I don’t know which post, but I was the one pondering the question
Thanks, Maura! Yes, there are all the Candy S. Lovall records plain as day (fingerprints and all). How odd the appeal had her name misspelled.
Hope to catch you guys after school open house later in Second Life.
What I found on Candy Lovall and her daughter Summer -
http://www.romingerlegal.com/floridacourts/court_opinions2/5D03-3786.op.html
Maura, does this help at all?
MOTHER CHARGED IN DEATH OF GIRL, 2 POLICE ARRESTED THE COCOA WOMAN, WHO IS FIVE MONTHS PREGNANT, AND WERE SEARCHING FOR HER BOYFRIEND.
[METRO Edition]
Orlando Sentinel - Orlando, Fla.
Author: Lynne Bumpus-Hooper of The Sentinel Staff
Date: Jul 29, 1998
Start Page: D.3
Section: LOCAL & STATE
Text Word Count: 308
COCOA - Two-year-old Summer Lovall died June 8 after a blow to the stomach so severe it ruptured her bladder, police said Tuesday in arresting the child’s mother.
Candy Sue Lovall, 23, was arrested late Tuesday on charges of aggravated manslaughter and felony child neglect as she returned to a Terri Lane home where she was staying with a friend. Police had searched for her and her boyfriend, Jamie Denell Hawkins, most of the day, but Lovall did not report for work as a maid at a Cocoa Beach motel. She is five months pregnant, police said.
1. Miami Herald - July 30, 1998 - 5B Local
DISPATCHES
Charged: Candy Sue Lovall, 23 years old and five-months pregnant, charged in Cocoa with aggravated manslaughter after blow kills her 2-year-old daughter. Her boyfriend, Jamie D. Hawkins, sought on same charge.
Pretty creepy parallel with Casey: 22 & 23 y.o. mothers killing their 2 y.o. daughters in June.
#305 silverspnr
***What was that about the Hyoid bone?***
Yes, indeed, silverspnr. One of the most important bones in the human body that might be able to present a cause of death, was never able to be recovered from the Suburban crime site as per the autopsy reports released to the public.
Carried further away by or consumed at the hands of the elements and wildlife? Or purposely estranged from the remains, post decomposition process, by the hands of a human?
The potential ramifications are chilling.
335 Lily
Thanks, but that’s the opinion of the Fifth District Court of Appeal that Silver posted upthread. That was the only thing I could find via Google.
336 & 337 Suz
Yes, that’s the type of information I was looking for but I couldn’t find what you found. I tried all sorts of search strings via Google, but I could only find the appeal decision. I tried the Brevard County newspaper as well and came up empty.
Two years old. Poor baby.
What search engine did you use, Suz?
I just tried Yahoo! and found that Candy Lovall petitioned the US Supreme Court. Her case is under the subheading “Certiorari Denied,” which means the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear her case and will let the prior ruling stand.
08-9513
LOVALL, CANDY S. V. McNEIL, SEC., FL DOC, ET AL.
330 Pamela
People often confuse the terms copyright, trademark, and registration, and that leads to bad information being passed around.
I suspect the source of the confusion is the registration of the Caylee Anthony Trust Fund shortly after Casey’s arrest last July (the one Sun Trust Bank closed under pressure in September).
wpgmouse, well, when you consider that the hyoid bone is such a wee little thing, and is disarticulated to begin with, it’s probably not too surprising that it was not found after all those months —-especially with rain washing through after Fay and during regular Florida storms. I would have a hard time giving our cast of characters credit for even being able to plot a hyoid theft. Of the lot, I reckon only Cindy would even know what it was (I am sure casey has never hoid of a hyoid). But Caylee was so young it might have been too soft to even have broken during strangulation, IF there even was strangulation. Of course I wish they would have found it on the off chance it had a story to tell, but I don’t think it is terribly suspicious that it’s absent.
I have to say that the hyoid hype was manufactured by our need for it to be found, in the hopes it would provide a COD for Caylee. The fact that it has not been recovered, is not suspect, imo.
B
westside-
Criminal defendants cannot just appeal whenever they wish or for any reason.
There are rules of criminal procedure and rules of appellate procedure which govern when a criminal defendant (and likewise, when the State) may file an appeal, and on what basis.
Generally, appeals can only be brought from a “final” judgment. The final judgment is the trial court’s order, which leaves nothing left to be done in the action except to follow the dictates of the judgment. See Allie v. Ionata, 503 So.2d 1237, 1240 (Fla. 1987) (”A final judgment is one that determines the rights of the parties and disposes of the case on its merits, leaving nothing more to be done in the cause except execution.”); Monticello Ins. Co. v. Thompson, 743 So.2d 1215 (Fla. 1st DCA 1999).
If a party is dissatisfied by a certain pre-trial ruling, the party must normally wait until the trial is complete, and a final judgment has been rendered, before an appeal may be brought. This is so all objections to the trial court’s rulings will be heard at one time. (There are, of course, exceptions–see infra for more information).
Death penalty cases are appealed directly from the Circuit Court to the Florida Supreme Court by law. And while the Florida Supreme Court has discretionary jurisdiction to review trial court Orders that are certified by the District Court to be in need of immediate Supreme Court review and to be of great public importance, Florida Rule of Appellate Procedure 9.030(a)(2)(B)(i), or will have a great effect upon the proper administration of justice,see Florida Rule of Appellate Procedure 9.030(a)(2), the Florida Supreme Court has already upheld the constitutionality of the Death Penalty, etc (see my last post-many cases cited).
Florida Rule of Appellate Procedure 9.130 sets forth various types of interlocutory court orders that may be appealed as of right with a notice of appeal. The list of these types of orders is set forth at Florida Rule of Appellate Procedure 9.130(a)(3)(C) et seq. Interlocutory appeals for matters not listed there must be brought pursuant to a separate rule, Florida Rule of Appellate Procedure 9.100 via Petition for Certification.
While the defense can ostensibly file an appeal seeking discretionary review– or a “suggestion” with the trial court hoping for the same (re: the “great public importance” etc of the decision), that is a (losing) uphill battle, based on precedent/stare decisis.
Look for the appeals to come in full throttle IF Casey is convicted of murder (vs. manslaughter or vs. found not guilty), and IF she is sentenced to death.
For more information, generally, see the following Florida Criminal Procedure statutes governing capital post-conviction actions. (Note the sections governing when and for what purposes the STATE may/MUST appeal– in certain circumstances, the State MUST appeal before trial–see 924.071 below)
924.06 Appeal by defendant.–
(1) A defendant may appeal from:
(a) A final judgment of conviction when probation has not been granted under chapter 948, except as provided in subsection (3);
(b) An order granting probation under chapter 948;
(c) An order revoking probation under chapter 948;
(d) A sentence, on the ground that it is illegal; or
(e) A sentence imposed under s. 921.0024 of the Criminal Punishment Code which exceeds the statutory maximum penalty provided in s. 775.082 for an offense at conviction, or the consecutive statutory maximums for offenses at conviction, unless otherwise provided by law.
(2) An appeal of an order granting probation shall proceed in the same manner and have the same effect as an appeal of a judgment of conviction. An appeal of an order revoking probation may review only proceedings after the order of probation. If a judgment of conviction preceded an order of probation, the defendant may appeal from the order or the judgment or both.
(3) A defendant who pleads guilty with no express reservation of the right to appeal a legally dispositive issue, or a defendant who pleads nolo contendere with no express reservation of the right to appeal a legally dispositive issue, shall have no right to a direct appeal.
924.066 Collateral relief.–
(1) Subject to the terms and conditions set forth in this chapter, a prisoner in custody may seek relief based upon claims that the judgment of conviction or sentence was imposed in violation of the Constitution or law of the United States or the State of Florida.
(2) Either the state or a prisoner in custody may obtain review in the next higher state court of a trial court’s adverse ruling granting or denying collateral relief. The state may obtain review of any trial court ruling that fails to enforce a procedural bar.
924.14 Stay of execution when defendant appeals.–An appeal by a defendant from either the judgment or sentence shall stay execution of the sentence, subject to the provisions of s. 924.065.
924.34 When evidence sustains only conviction of lesser offense.–When the appellate court determines that the evidence does not prove the offense for which the defendant was found guilty but does establish guilt of a lesser statutory degree of the offense or a lesser offense necessarily included in the offense charged, the appellate court shall reverse the judgment and direct the trial court to enter judgment for the lesser degree of the offense or for the lesser included offense.
924.07 Appeal by state.–
(1) The state may appeal from:
(a) An order dismissing an indictment or information or any count thereof or dismissing an affidavit charging the commission of a criminal offense, the violation of probation, the violation of community control, or the violation of any supervised correctional release.
(b) An order granting a new trial.
(c) An order arresting judgment.
(d) A ruling on a question of law when the defendant is convicted and appeals from the judgment. Once the state’s cross-appeal is instituted, the appellate court shall review and rule upon the question raised by the state regardless of the disposition of the defendant’s appeal.
(e) The sentence, on the ground that it is illegal.
(f) A judgment discharging a prisoner on habeas corpus.
(g) An order adjudicating a defendant insane under the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure.
(h) All other pretrial orders, except that it may not take more than one appeal under this subsection in any case.
(i) A sentence imposed below the lowest permissible sentence established by the Criminal Punishment Code under chapter 921.
(j) A ruling granting a motion for judgment of acquittal after a jury verdict.
(k) An order denying restitution under s. 775.089.
(l) An order or ruling suppressing evidence or evidence in limine at trial.
(m) An order withholding adjudication of guilt in violation of s. 775.08435.
(2) An appeal under this section must embody all assignments of error in each pretrial order that the state seeks to have reviewed. The state shall pay all costs of the appeal except for the defendant’s attorney’s fee.
924.071 Additional grounds for appeal by the state; time for taking; stay of cause.–
(1) The state may appeal from a pretrial order dismissing a search warrant or suppressing evidence, however obtained, or which directly and expressly conflicts with an appellate decision of a district court of appeal or of the Florida Supreme Court. The appeal must be taken before the trial.
(2) An appeal by the state from a pretrial order shall stay the case against each defendant upon whose application the order was made until the appeal is determined. If the trial court determines that the evidence, confession, or admission that is the subject of the order would materially assist the state in proving its case against another defendant and that the prosecuting attorney intends to use it for that purpose, the court shall stay the case of that defendant until the appeal is determined. A defendant in custody whose case is stayed either automatically or by order of the court shall be released on his or her own recognizance pending the appeal if he or she is charged with a bailable offense.
924.09 When appeal to be taken by defendant.–An appeal may be taken by the defendant only within the time provided by the Florida Rules of Appellate Procedure after the judgment, sentence, or order appealed from is entered, except that an appeal by a person who has not been granted probation may be taken from both judgment and sentence within the time provided by said rules after the sentence is entered.
See also:
Florida Rules of Appellate Procedure, in particular-
Rule 9.140 Appeal Proceedings in Criminal Cases
Rule 9.142 Procedures for Review in Death Penalty Cases
******
Maura-
I don’t know the procedural history of the Lovell case other than as set forth in the appellate decision.
The fact that the appellate court had to explain the decision by way of statutory interpretation –without any citation to another case on point–tells us that this was an irregularity worthy of an opinion, at the least. I apologize if I made light of this earlier/gave the wrong impression.
*****
If any of you had the gorgeous weather we had here today, I hope you are getting out and enjoying it.
It was sunny, yet crisp here today.
I spent a few hours mountain biking and helping some other members of the local mountain biking club with some volunteer trail maintenance this evening.
My arms, legs and back are sore, but only in the best of ways.
FWIW-
I don’t mind commenting on legal issues entirely, but I am semi-retired for a reason (not just because I can afford to be thanks to almost 2 decades of 60+ hr work weeks–and a wonderful/grateful husband who is still working those kinds of hours, fighting tooth decay;) (he only gets interested in these kinds of cases if there are dental records, etc involved, and much prefers his wife’s interest in outdoor sports/fine cooking/good wine=)
I’m looking forward to flying around in my ugly grey suit on Second Life/drawing all kinds of (hopefully reasonable inferences) from the evidence of record. See you there=)
omg, I helped Maura! (I’m seriously beaming)
Maura, somehow I ended up on Google News Archives. Who knew there was such a thing? (I think I went from Brevard County to dockets.justia.com to google news to google news archives. Sheer persistence and a bit of luck.)
#342
Hello, suz. Well, just to clarify, in my response comments to one of silverspn’s #305 comments, I never ventured or implied a “cast of characters”, “plot”, or a “Hyoid theft”. IMO no one other than the person sitting in jail has been implicated thus far in handling the remains of the little child at whatever time or for whatever purpose.
I was offering 2 possible scenarios, and yes, one scenario is more plausible than the other from what we know.
And I, personally, do not know what extent, if any, Miss A.’s knowledge of the human anatomy is, just like I do not know what her specific knowledge of various external influences on the human body may or may not be.
Suz, when you mentioned her mother (I take it, because of her medical background) I remembered that some time ago, I found something most interesting, but have not been able to triple verify yet, so I won’t name names. One of Miss A.’s past boyfriends that she still had in-person contact with, has a mother who may be an M.N.
While possibly having access to a home where an M.N. lives, Miss A.
may or may not have attempted to take advantage of a situation that may have existed (with the home’s occupants innocently unaware).
Just something else to ponder.
I will try to verify further…unless…Blink?
Wow, Thanks Silver, although I’m not certain that I asked that specific question.
I just wanted to know if the trial would have been delayed if Lyon lost a motion to dismiss the death penalty, because you mentioned that you thought that she might take it to the supreme court, if not satisfied with the judges’ rulings. Maura had instructed that the trial would proceed.
I will keep a copy, to digest and contemplate, at a later time.
For me, no offense to any attorneys, it is excruciatingly dry to read in the AM. Sometimes, a plain paraphrase in normal dialogue is about all I can take.lol!
As a side note, I can also be resistant to manuals of any sort, until a problem arises. I like the “quick step up guides”, if you will.
Florida BAR clears Baez
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/orl-bk-baez-cleared-by-bar-090109,0,7176801.story
Right. No Hyoid bone.
Just computer searches on household weapons, neck breaking, and shovel back March 08 and the official cause of death as homicide by undetermined means; lack of damage to the bones (other than animal activity); the decomp and hair with death ring in the trunk (and total lack of blood evidence); the duck tape; the mother who never reports her as “missing”/”kidnapped” and spent 31 days row-row-rowing her boat, gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily… (while flies laid their eggs, maggots squirmed, scavenger beetles had their fill, indigenous animals pulled her apart, limb by limb–just around the corner from ScamAnthony central).
And I feel terrible if I run over an earthworm on my bike in the woods. Go figure. I guess I’m just missing that insensitivity chip.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/orl-bk-baez-cleared-by-bar-090109,0,7176801.story
Florida Bar clears Casey Anthony’s lawyer of ethics charges
Members of the Bar’s Grievance Committee found “insufficient evidence” that Baez did anything wrong, according to a letter from the Bar…..
#345 Suz - I thought I helped Maura too but I guess I should know better.
I’m starting to feel way out of my league here. I’m going to sit back until there is more for an amateur like me to contribute.
WOW. If the Florida Bar can’t even reprimand a lawyer like Baez, who the h*ll can they reprimand? Good grief!!!! He’ll be completely insufferable now, I expect.
WSH…..the grand jury will convict a ham sandwich…but, to be a defense lawyer, you have to be rotten deep down inside anyways.
And, how can they clear him when only DC’s complaints are the only ones that are mentioned. In the beginning of all this, I believe they were 3 different people that filed complaints against him.
Just goes to show you how our justice system really works, IMO!
I guess that’s why I’m so mesmerized with this case. I still don’t believe without a shadow of a doubt that our GOOD OLE justice system will get justice for Caylee. It just seems more geared to helping the convicted! JMO, of course!
# 351 Lily
I like reading your posts.
# 353
Granmomma
I think that we should be careful here. Some defense lawyers have their hearts in the right places. Some do it for the love of law, and some do it to really represent the wrongly accused or convicted. SOME do it for other reasons.
I think that a couple of the complaints against Baez were actually the same, but submitted by different people. I’m not certain about a third one.
Shelly, it was totally great to hang out with you and the others last night. I plan on going back again this evening ~ this time with a voice. Anyway, just wanted to say that I love your costuming ideas (flannel gown and furry slippers) but I couldn’t find anything like that in the options. Maybe as I get more familiar with SL I’ll be able to manage a costume change. And YES ~ must have those curlers. I wonder if I need a cigarette hanging out of my mouth too?
gotcha’, wpgmouse. I guess I just figure that casey seems so stupid about everything else—having no body disposal plan; having no plausible story worked out, even after a whole month; failing to permanently get rid of the stinky car or at least the trunk liner; leaving what sounds like tons of artifacts from the house at the scene; hiding the body close to home; making stolen checks out to herself—I can’t imagine she would worry about a little bone that might or might not indicate strangulation (and which doesn’t prove whodunnit, only cause of death).
Stop me if I am overthinking this, but let’s explore. Let’s say she learned of what a hyoid was when she was studying neck breaking, or she otherwise knew about it from CSI or Dr. G’s show or true crime novels or Cindy’s medical journals, and so she did decide to steal the hyoid.
She either has to cut into the body to get at the little bone—with the scalpel and medical books she borrows from the M.N.? is that part of the theory?—which would look WORSE than strangulation should the body be found before it decomposes. Or she has to wait until it is skeletonized, which we now know may have taken as little as two weeks, but which I doubt very much that Casey knew (even deputy Cain didn’t know that little tidbit, and he was a pro), put herself back at the crime scene at least once to check on the decomp progress (which I guess many perps do if you believe the old saying, and if Blink is right about the shorts). If the child is skeletonized at that point, she finds and takes the hyoid bone because she does not want it to look like strangulation, but she leaves the duct tape still hanging from the hair, which looks like suffocation.
“I don’t want them to know she was strangled, so I will pretend she was suffocated.”
Since I don’t get why she would think one suspected cause of death would be preferable to another, it doesn’t make as much sense to me as the tiny hyoid bone simply washing away. But then Casey doesn’t always make much sense to me, so I guess anything is possible with that girl.
That defense attorney from CNN needs to stop giving her 2 cents worth of useless commentary/information. Jayne Swinetraub seems to want to be Casey’s best friend. They had a criminal profiler/psychologist commenting on Casey’s recent court appearance. She was stating that it appears that Casey is realizing that this is real, noticing that the smirk and arrogance is gone, and here comes Ms.Swinetraub to Casey’s rescue. Portraying Casey as a malnutrioned victim who stays in her cell for 23 hours a day. Hey, Jayne, AT LEAST CASEY GETS TO BREATHE!!! WHAT ABOUT THE DARK CIRCLES UNDER CAYLEE’S EYES! STAY OUT OF SUBJECTS WHERE YOUR EXPERTISE IS NILL!!!! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0908/21/ijvm.01.html
WSH….okay….sorry if I offended anyone here about my take on defense lawyers….JMO, of course. Everybody has opinions I guess some is just better kept to oneself! Please forgive me if I stepped on any toes!
Silver,
You didn’t give me the wrong impression.
What I was trying to say (and didn’t quite) is that the Lovall case more than met the criteria for the DP, but I couldn’t find any information about the trial to see if the Brevard County prosecutors even sought the DP in that case. Both defendants were convicted of felony murder, a capital crime.
I was wondering, but didn’t state, if that would be the type of Florida case that Lyon might point to as an example of inconsistent application of the DP since the aggravating factors in the Lovall case are the same as those in the Anthony case. Moreover, the HAC factor was not in doubt in the Lovall case as it frankly is in the Anthony case (because no one knows how Caylee died).
I don’t doubt that Lyon is going to use every argument she can think of in attacking the Florida DP statutes and applications.
I believe Lyon is definitely going to attack the Florida DP for the fact that Florida is the only state in the country that only requires a simple majority (seven of the twelve jurors) in favor of death when voting in the penalty phase. In Florida, the trial jury’s penalty vote is only a recommendation; the trial judge makes the final decision for death or LWOP.
Why that would matter, as I understand it, is that the US Supreme Court has ruled that no convict may be executed in the US unless a jury has voted for the death penalty (not including military courts). I haven’t read the US Supreme Court’s ruling on that matter, but since Florida still has a simple majority vote, I assume the ruling does not specify a unanimous jury vote. Even so, my sense is that there is room to attack Florida practice relative to the US Supreme Court’s ruling.
Texas had a 10-2 minimum at one point (I don’t know what it is now), but all other states that allow the DP require a unanimous jury vote for death.
351 Lily
I couldn’t find any more information than you did, and what we found was what Silver had already posted.
I don’t see any reason for you to hold back on commenting. You have some very good insights.
The lawyer discipline system’s primary focus is on ensuring that lawyers act ethically in dealing with their own CLIENTS (not vis-a-vis 3rd parties). The Rules of Professional Conduct impose a plethora of duties on attorneys, mainly vis-a-vis their CLIENTS, and vis-a-vis the COURT.
The proper place for Dominic Casey to resolve any unpaid bill for services is in Court, and not through the Florida Bar’s Disciplinary system.
Not that his complaint was taken lightly.
Remember: After Dominic Casey filed the complaint with the Florida Bar, counsel for the Florida Bar found cause to submit it to the Grievance Committee (each judicial circuit in Florida has at least one, and they are made up of volunteers from that community, at last 1/3 of whom are NOT lawyers).
The grievance committee reviews complaints and decides whether there is probable cause to believe a lawyer violated the PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT RULES imposed by the Supreme Court of Florida (ONLY, i.e. not the laws of the State of Florida).
The fact that Dominic Casey brought a dispute concerning his claim of non-payment for services into the mix was unfortunate, because that is not really a claim that falls within the ambit of the Grievance Committee’s “jurisdiction”, if you will.
Also, a person who has an axe to grind over alleged non-payment for services rendered may make another statement (say, about instructions to NOT call 911) in order to embellish his claim. And on that claim, other than he said/he said, there was no evidence to assess.
Lest we forget, Dominic Casey has some credibility issues of his own. (all who have read his deposition transcript are aware of this).
btw-
The Grievance Committee members are volunteers from the community.
353 Granmomma
Since I began participating in forum discussions of this case last September, I’ve come across many people who expressed opinions similar to yours on the subject of defense attorneys. I have responded with variations of the following.
As with other sections of the government, our courts are set up with a system of checks and balances, which is why our government provides legal representation free-of-charge to anyone charged with a crime who cannot afford a private attorney. The purpose of defense counsel is to challenge the prosecution’s evidence so that law enforcement and prosecution don’t become careless and lazy when gathering evidence and charging suspects and so that guilty verdicts, when rendered, are closely fitted to the evidence that has withstood vigorous challenge.
As much as we may become infuriated with defense challenges and maneuvers, we need defense attorneys to be aggressive in order to keep government as honest as possible. And government does need that pressure to stay honest since history offers plenty of evidence of judicial corruption and prosecutorial misconduct. The US Founders were certainly aware of the potential for government overreach and abuse of police powers since five of the ten amendments that make up the US Bill of Rights specifically address legal protections for citizens who find themselves subject to police investigation or charged with crimes or convicted of crimes (amendments 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8).
In Islamic countries that follow the strictest form of Sharia Law, if a woman is raped, she needs four male witnesses testify on her behalf. If she is unmarried and becomes pregnant because of the rape, she can be charged with adultery and punished by public whipping, imprisonment, or even execution by stoning. Those laws make it nearly impossible to prosecute rapists, which is why prior to the reform of rape laws in Pakistan in 2006, a woman was raped every two hours and gang-raped every eight hours, according to the country’s independent Human Rights Commission. Under that system, a victim is guilty until proven innocent, and the required proof is virtually impossible to meet.
Compared with a legal system like that, I’m very, very grateful that we have the legal system we have. It’s not perfect. Ideally, people guilty of crimes would be convicted of exactly the crimes committed – no more, no less. But because judges, lawyers, police, and jurors are imperfect humans, we can’t expect the courts to meet ideal standards. Sometimes the innocent are convicted and sometimes the guilty are acquitted. Those who are guilty to some degree may be convicted of greater or lesser charges than their actions actually warrant. In the absence of divine omniscience to help us know exactly what happened in the commission of a crime, that’s as good as it’s going to get.
Our system mostly works so long as police investigations are lawful, thorough and unbiased, so long as judges are informed and impartial, so long as prosecutors and defense attorneys offer vigorous arguments with all available admissible evidence, and so long as honest jurors weigh the evidence objectively. That doesn’t mean justice will be perfectly served in every instance, but there is no legal system on the planet that tries harder than ours to serve justice perfectly.
In our system, the prosecution bears 100% of the burden in convincing the jury that the defendant is guilty of the crime for which he or she is charged. It’s the job of the defense counsel to challenge every bit of that evidence so that the defendant, if convicted, is not deprived of property (fines), liberty (imprisonment), or life (execution) unless the government’s case holds up after challenge. We would not have a legal system worth having if every person accused of a crime was not afforded the same level of vigorous defense, irrespective of the quality and quantity of evidence collected by the government.
Lastly, if we start to think that a defendant is not entitled to a vigorous defense (or any defense) because the evidence against him or her – as reported by the press - is so abundant and strong that it is manifestly clear to the public that the defendant is guilty as charged, then we will have all but insured an increase in police and prosecutorial misconduct. There are very good reasons why our Founders insisted that trials be public and that defendants have the right to face their accusers and challenge the evidence against them– because the public is thereby given some assurance via that open process that government is being held to ethical standards. Close it off, deny a defendant a trial, insist that the prosecution’s evidence be accepted without challenge, and before you know it, defendants against whom the evidence isn’t nearly as abundant or strong will be sent to prison or executed because there will be no pressure on government to prove its case.
Despite the vulnerability of our legal system to corruption on many levels, it’s a system that we can be justly proud of, and we need defense lawyers to make it work.
#359
Granmomma
Clearly, I am not a lawyer, so I’m not personally offended. I just think that it’s better not to make global sweeping statements about any particular group…
Bees…. geeze I hope they keep that place non-smoking!!!
You can bet that Dominic Casey could have been told by ‘Cindy’ what to do about not calling 911, and Baez could have been there holding his hands to his ears, so to speak.
357
Good morning, suz
In regards to the M.N., I was thinking more along the lines of access to
pharmaceutical drugs used in hospitals and other professional medical settings for sedation purposes (access that was definitely off-limits to her).
Should have made it clear I was off the “hyroid” scenario. Sorry you went further on to an exploration.
I do have to disagree with you on one thing, though. I do not believe Miss A. is stupid. My belief is that she has a brain that records, balances and retains information continuously - - as she reads it, hears it, creates it or watches it. She has a vast, internal data base, if you will, available for her to draw on the information of her choosing for immediate use to respond to whenever and whatever the situation at hand, as well as useage for pre-planned or future actions (those being short term only or including long term …I do not know). This, of course, is only my opinion.
I’m still lost as to who, technically, or actually, Dominic Casey was working for and/or taking directions from, in the mix of lawyer, client, law firm, the Anthony ‘family’, George and Cindy Anthony.
It seems to be a mess and easily covers up any confusion over who directed DC to do what at any given point. Then there’s the alleged closeness/touchy-feely situation between PI and one of the clients.
Presumably Baez would have been directing DC when he worked for Baez in the beginning, then Baez would be directing DC on behalf of Baez’s client, and then Cindy and George would have had a say, maybe they were all directing DC as he worked for Casey and the Anthony’s together, so DC was working for all of them in the interest of Casey.
If Baez was going to point the finger at Cindy and/or George, wouldn’t he want the PI NOT to be taking direction from ‘them’? Or did Baez know all along that he nor his client could claim work product, so why not try to get an investigator ‘inside’ the Anthony home gathering info to later be used against the parents in the capital case.
This is still a big mess of who worked for who.
In no way do I think this is the last of this issue, your right, we have some serious overlap issues.
B
And could it have been Casey, who, in a letter to Cindy perhaps (one of the ones that were ‘private’ via Baez who would have read it if that was the case) to say ‘do not call 911 if you find a body’. That would get around Baez not recalling a ‘conversation’– it would come from Casey to Cindy in writing, and maybe Baez didn’t know or want to know, at that point. Technically keeping his hands clean, while having an idea what Casey told her mother to tell her (maybe even ‘their’ PI). There could also be letters directly from Casey to Cindy to direct her to do same, as Cindy was obviously wanting info on the baby’s whereabouts.
Would like to know what the actual jail policies are, what the regular postal mail regulations are handled to and from inmates accused of capital cases when there is busy work for the inmate to have done with regards to ‘evidence’ on the outside– especially when an unlocated body of a baby and with the parents of the inmate being in full fledgling protection mode.
Kleat
Plus it Baez was permitted to bring his laptop in. Who knows how much interaction or communication was passed that way vs postal letters?
Plus…..(edit) take “it” out, I had two thoughts that intersected and then I changed the text, leaving part of the first thought in.
and BTW, while Casey stood accused of no more than ‘nothing’ as described by Cindy, and while she had Baez in hand, did Baez EVER take advantage of more than his firm’s investigator or investigators and Dominic Casey to find a kidnapped baby? Did Baez ever call the FBI and say we believe she is alive, please help us find the baby and bring her home safely and if worst comes to worst, to prosecute those responsible?? Oh yeah, Baez isn’t into prosecuting ANYONE, he’s from the Todd Black school of conspiracy theorists.
Sorry once again….I really didn’t mean to spark such a big issue. I was simply stating my opinion and I do understand and respect all of yours. I just don’t know what else to say…..except, to all you good defense lawyers out there…..I’m surely glad that some of your hearts are in the right place. AGAIN…..sorry to all who may have taken offense to my uneducated opinion.
Bar clears Baez of ethic complaint
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/20667422/detail.html
Kleat, speaking of Todd Black
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/20667422/detail.html
Although Baez has been cleared on Casey’s complaint, there is still an open bar complaint against the attorney.
The complaint involves Baez’s relationship with his former spokesman, a man known as Todd Black, who sent out press releases on Baez’s behalf. Black was later discovered to be a convicted felon.
It is not clear when the investigation into that complaint will be complete.
Does it bother anyone else that everyone in the MSM is missing that there’s one down- one to go?
B
Kleat thank you about the Dominick Casey comment. I have often wondered about that too. Lots of people seem so confident that his position was and is clear but it didn’t seem that way to me either. I just thought I wasn’t ‘gettin’ it’. In fact, with you, Silver, WSH and of course Maura - I often have to read a couple of times before I think “I get it”!
Are there any rules about what communication the client is allowed to pass through an attorney to the outside world and how? Seriously, gang leaders, etc. could still direct their criminal objectives if their attorneys visit often enough and are nothing more than a conduit to/from the outside world. With attorney/client privilege - or for that matter - any psychiatry visits or clergy visits - nothing could be subpoenaed, right? Especially with a laptop and a wireless card - email would be incredibly effective.
What then is the point in restricting outgoing mail? I guess those who can’t afford to an have an attorney visit all of the time don’t get the advantage.
Oh well - hope that’s not a knuckle-head question
# 379 Not a knucklehead question Lily.
In prison, many of the gang members have been found to have cell phones, that were smuggled in, believe it or not. And yes business is still conducted!
In this case, if they were smart, no emails would have been sent, but rather a note onto the laptop, and either printed later, or read directly from the laptop…in my opinion.
Does it bother anyone else that everyone in the MSM is missing that there’s one down- one to go?
B
Blink, you’ve got to stop watching or reading there! It is going to give you hypertension. lol!
Going…..
B
Could the state have still kept their ‘ongoing investigation’ as the body was yet to be discovered, and had investigative ‘underwraps’ tools to read client mail? Not though the lawyer of course, there may have been things that Baez said to Casey, ‘I will not read’ so if you were to say, tell your mother something about the baby that I would not be able to keep private, write it on this paper, and seal it, and I’ll take it to your mother. But that’s speaking hypothetically, I don’t know what you will write…. on that paper because I can’t learn it.
Easy for him to play a semantics game I suppose.
Maura #354
BRAVO.
And as to the Lovall case, here is a good exercise: imagine how the State can distinguish it from the facts of this case (cause of death/injury mechanism/INTENT).
It may seem as though the State is applying the DP in an arbitrary and capricious manner at first blush,–when you just take a cursory look at the appellate opinion and the information we have to date on this case, but recall that in the Lovall case– which is about as HAC as they come in my mind– there may have been insufficient evidence to prove intent to kill. The child was horribly physically abused, but it was the failure to get medical care (which could have saved her life) that led to her death (from urine spill).
Maura-sorry, meant #364 (typos abound)
yes, one down, MSM doesn’t notice… what the heck are they getting paid for?
let’s all head over and sign into their comment pages and set them straight! They print what they do because it’s what they are fed… no thinking required, just slurp and spit!
wpgmouse, lol, see, you DID stop me before I over thought it—just not in time. I am sure I am oversimplifying it by saying casey is stupid. She can obviously create clever fake emails from fake employers to fool her mom, and she certainly can tell a tall tale fearlessly. You must forgive me—I am on a Quixotic quest to stop folks from framing casey as a criminal mastermind, and that’s really more about railing against the theories that she deliberately left all kinds of clever clues, including the address of the lot where she dumped the body being caylee’s bday, etc.
I say she’s not bright because her crime seems a little sloppy, and because as much as she lies and weaves stories, her friends seem to catch on before too long, so she’s not even a great con artist. More like a con apprentice. The things she has going for her are her cuteness and her ability to lie to your face and not back down, even if you are showing her solid evidence to the contrary, as a high school friend of hers described it. You’d be surprised at how far that will take you in the world. (sometimes all the way to jail, lol)
‘Purgery’ (forgive the pun) to occur one year from now, so that means Baez will have NO record of this problem on his record as it will be purged from the FLA bar records before Casey ever gets to trial. I guess this is good in one way, Casey can’t use this as an excuse to claim inadequate council. (not that I’d know if it would be a basis or not, given the team make up at this point)
Personally, I wish they hadn’t decided to seek the DP against Casey, and not just because of the proof issues.
I think the one who actually benefits most as a result of it, is Casey (cause in the circus tent of her defense team, she now has a LYON in her ring, and not merely BOZO the CLOWN).
Wait… Did I just type that???!
I must be starting to lose it!
That was terrible. I apologize. Truly.
I should have just said that having Lyon on her defense team is about the best darn thing to happen to Casey since July 15, 2008.
I happen to agree, and if Mac makes it to the big show, it is the one two punch. Silver I dont know if you have read any of my stuff on him, and then using your own accesses, review his actual case work, but he is a stellar litigator. My lawyer friends in Or LAWN Do are sick of me saying I have a professional crush on him, but I do. That said, if he makes it out of his boiling pot in Cali, I will need to be resucitated.
B
Sorry for my ignorance……… what is MSM?
Oh, Blink. Of the three, he is, by leaps and bounds, the best in the dog-n-pony show department. As much as people here don’t see it (due to his attachment to this particular case/not knowing his history), the man could charm the skin off a snake (let alone how he has affected you, silly goose! lol!)
MSM = Mainstream Media
LOL Silverspnr!! That’ why we love ya!!!
“…circus tent of her defense team, she now has a LYON in her ring, and not merely BOZO the CLOWN).”
‘Truly’… right… gotcha… ‘Absolutely and potentially TRULY’!!!
Hey, Blink– Baez was cleared!!! So too, will Mr. ToddyMacs I fear (but we, your loyal virtual friends and supporters will be hear to revive you to be sure (standing by…) … (I can’t help but relate his name in short form to FreddieMacs name… for some unknown reason… )
Mariann,
MSM stands for mainstream media. I’m wanting to know what HAC stands for…
Blink,
I’ve followed you over here from scared monkeys and wanted to let you know how much I appreciate what you are doing for those who cannot do for themselves. Your work is truly astounding and I’m learning so much from you and all of your wonderful contributors. It’s a pleasure and an honor to be in your presence. Best wishes, keep up the great work, and please stay safe!
msm, MSM = Main Stream Media (regular news sources)
Ok… is Linda K-B a big shaggy dog act with a bad hair dye job? (not a clown, but where does she fit in? I hesitate to speculate on that one)
I was reading that as “MSN”…sorry
Once you are a member of the Bar, it seems incredibly difficult to be tossed out. It has to be an egregious act with smoking gun evidence, it appears
Amiyah, I think HAC means the crime was “heinous, atrocious, and cruel”
Re:MSM- Thanks for the explanation! lol
Does anyone know if Baez lives in Orlando and if he has grade school aged children- Cause I SWEAR I saw him in dark shades waiting to pick a child up from my childrens’ school.
From silver’s post above -
HEINOUS, ATROCIOUS OR CRUEL (HAC)
EXPECT THIS TO BE A KEY LYON ATTACK*** (she has her work cut out for her–keep reading)
BLINK, I know you’ve probably already stated, but do you live in Orlando also ? Its amazing to me how many people here could care less about this case (other than the fact it makes Floridians look like a bunch of redneck criminals again). I hesitate to say I live in Orlando, technically Winter Park, but no one knows that so I say Orlando suburb.
I do not.
B
I can’t believe I missed that one… thanks suz and lily! BTW, what are your SL names? Mine is the same as here just because I signed up there first before finally commenting here, I guess that worked out well. Hope to see you tonight on SL!
silver - brilliant, mountain biker and a great sense of humor! Thanks for lightening things up today.
I just saw this…….. I realize not much weight is given to the credability of this guy (inmate) but he wrote a letter to the judge this time.
He says who the killer is to- without mentioning a name…
http://www.wftv.com/news/20669869/detail.html
Amiyah - I am Lily Paquot in Second Life but I haven’t been able to get away in the evening to get into Second Life for about a week! I love it though! I wish I had been there when Mariann showed up - minus proper clothing for a campfire . . . when I read her comment here at Blink I laughed OUT LOUD - people stared at me. LOL
Amiyah, I am one of those hapless souls who keeps signing up for Second Life and not getting any email response.
I am going to try it from a different PC and see if that helps.
I think that Baez thing was what was called a who-struck-John case: Baez said one thing (”didn’t recall”), the investigator said the other, and there was no way to determine the truth.
A Lyon is only as good as it’s teeth. No teeth, fate is sealed.
Kleat #393-
Thanks for the vote of support=) I was feeling rather ashamed of myself;)
westside #398
Not at all, particularly when the complaint against them can be easily verified, for example where they mismanage funds. Just by way of example:
http://www.floridabar.org/DIVCOM/JN/JNNews01.nsf/8c9f13012b96736985256aa900624829/6c6a7c259ebcc83b85256e04005290ad?OpenDocument
Maura, We have a question for you from our Second Life scenes we are trying to figure out. And we all immediately said in unison “Maura will know”.
Did LE take a cut out sample of the carpet in Casey’s room? In setting up Casey’s room, Angela (with her hawk eyes :)) noticed something and we all can’t remember if the piece of carpeting was taken by LE. Like a piece cut from the carpet and taken.
Thanks in advance from all the Second Life Blinkers
and attributes of ’stealth’ and agility play a part too, as well as pack co-operation. Some individual packs have developed co-operative techniques of night hunting adult elephants and have become successful at it, where other lion prides have not learned this technique and the elephants in a healthy herd, do not feel threatened. This might be a Lyon pride that has some techniques up its sleeve where an accused with not the publicity of this case, can not afford to bring this level of team on board. And the elephants beware.
Blink, do you think that Ms. Lyon was contributing to the defense as an advisor long before she officially showed up? And that part of the ’she’s innocent’ promo would be to play to the jury pool ASAP regardless of intent of this defense? They can still claim they had not sufficient time to investigate their defense strategy this early, so can explain away the ‘innocent’ thing to buy whatever time, gains, against the state’s position with a strategy to first, remove the dp, second, to get the best deal possible for their client, which may include some time off between trial and appeal, if needed. Again, if she were convicted, they would argue that Ms. Huizinga’s case should further be delayed. Amy would likely move on, and drop her case if the defense could endlessly delay. Delays always are a benefit.
I think she was in play when the DP was put back on the table, absolutely.
B
Shelly,
I watched those Greta videos and in the first one Greta asked if her room was always this way and CA positively said yes, nothings changed. In the second video the bed is moved to the adjacent wall. First its by the window and then its on the sidewall to the right when you walk in. So the furniture was rearranged
Look at the headlines now! CA is “cut off” from fed up G & C!
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2009/09/casey-anthony-.html
# 415 Mariann-Thanks for the link
Good for them! I hope that they follow through.
# 410 I know Silver, my comment(#398) had a heavy dose of sarcasm. But I’ve seen articles where lawyers have committed crimes, and it seemed like it did take a hell of a lot for them to finally get booted (not talking about this case).
This is my opinion, ofcourse, but I am starting to see too often that alot of these child murders, a good majority is from unmarried young couples, and are still “active”. Casey saw Caylee as a hinderance, and when she turned 21, her single nightlife took precedence. The Hayley situation? You have a not-to-stable (mentally) dad, and you have this 17 year old newlywed bride that was not the biological mother. Not even beginning with the statistics of 90-95 percent of all child abductions are either family related, or by someone the child abductee knows. My opinion with Misty Croslin is, as in the same situation with Casey, she saw Hayley as a hinderance or a liability. Funny how the “abduction” was done while the dad was at work, no forced entry, a cylinder block holding the door open for accessibility, and it has already been established that not only did Misty fail a polygraph and inconsistent stories, but she had “friends” over at the house that evening, where as before she denied that. Misty says she was “tricked” with the polygraph. Casey claims LE was trying to “trick” a confession out of her. Similarities to the core……….
One other thing to add….both the Anthony’s and Misty Croslin have both given inconsistent statements.
CindeefromWS,
There are 2x’s the LE took photo’s in that room. Once before Greta visited and the bed was moved. Second LE photo shows it was moved back after Greta’s visit to old place. Greta specifically asked was this the way the room had always been and Cindy gave an affirmative.
Therefore, through discussion it came up that perhaps the LE had taken a segment of the carpet and therefore the bed was moved maybe to cover the hole while Greta’s film crew was there. I can’t find the info indicating LE took a sample.
And did the dogs search in the house? We cant find if they did/do that even/or did not.
Cindee, forgive me, but I can’t remember if you got in Second Life?
Kleat, I think it would absolutely be non-smoking, even virtual smoking! I just had the image of the worn housecoat, curlers, fluffy slippers and a cigarette just kind of hanging there with a big long ash ready to drop. But I agree. I’m a five and one-half year lung cancer survivor so there would be no one more adamant than me about smoking!
I am so very proud of you for that I can’t tell you.
B
Awww, Blink! Thanks, honey. I’ve been blessed that’s for sure!!!
Shelly, if you’re still here, I didn’t get hooked up with audio for SL yet, so am going to wait till tomorrow when it should happen. Thanks for your help last night.
Great Bees!!! Wonderful to hear!!!
(and of course, loved the comic of whatshername– that comic card character lady whose name escapes me now. Then there’s the Andrea Martin as ‘Edith Prickley’!! HA!!
(of course, the non-Canucks might need a bit of help with that one! 
And thanks, Mariane for the story link about letters! Now did someone in the MSM, like Bob Kealing read my post wondering about those ‘letters’ and jailhouse policies???
I surely hope George and Cindy read Andrea Lyon’s paper that we have been discussing here, as they might really understand how Baez has been manipulating them and acting inappropriately as ‘gatekeeper’ to their communications. That is plain wrong! (especially if he acted as ‘priority postmaster’ to literally deliver contraband to Casey)!
And of course, he could have potentially helped pass info back and forth about the baby’s whereabouts and other important issues. (as Lee said he could do)
Andrea Lyon wrote in her paper, that it’s important for the defense in dp cases, to keep family support up, through visits of family to the accused. If Casey says something, she’s an adult, she knows better than to say things or act out on video, if it happens, too bad. A family should be able to visit and if it’s shown, fine, those parents are used to the media by now.
(and to Mariane’s link a few posts back– does anyone find it strange that of the MSM, some of the ‘firsts’ with new or even reliable info, are from the TVGuy Blog??!?! Good heavens!!!! )
Bees - congrats on your 5 1/2 years! I lost my dad to emphysema a couple of years ago and my mom has smoking health issues but she quit 3 years ago (yay!) I know its the hardest thing to quit. - Lily
411 Shelly
Maura doesn’t know. It makes sense that LE would take a sample of wall-to-wall carpeting for fiber comparison, but I’ve never heard anything about a piece being cut from Casey’s bedroom floor. I don’t recall reading anything in the discovery about a carpet sample from anywhere in the house being cut and removed.
IIRC, a piece of the trunk liner was cut and sent to a forensic lab (Oak Ridge or FBI).
The last inside-the-house interview was around November 21. No reporters have been inside since the remains were found, so we wouldn’t have seen any shots of the bedroom with a missing piece of carpet. And if they did take a piece, I don’t believe they would have taken it from an area that would be obvious. If they just needed the fibers, they would have cut a piece out of the closet floor, for instance.
Sorry can’t help! I couldn’t say LE never took a carpet sample from the house, but if they did, I don’t know about it.
This one is dedicated to my friend Kleat, who has been looking for the “not guilty” statement vs. “innocent”. Enjoy:
Excerpt:
“My client has told me she’s not guilty, and I’m working hard and doing everything that I can as her legal counsel to put the state to its burden,” Baez said.
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2009/09/casey-anthony-jose-baez-says-ethics-allegations-motivate-him-to-fight-harder-for-client-who-says-she.html
Maybe I’m too cynical, but today I am analyzing this news item in a different light. Is this subterfuge in order to remove suspicions about earlier communications via the laptop, passed letters, or directives about the “dump site”? In other words, they know nothing because they were “cut off”. My apologies if this sounds ridiculous.
What does everyone make of this?
http://www.wesh.com/news/20672110/detail.html
ORLANDO, Fla. — The Orange County Jail said Tuesday that its re-emphasis on the ban for lawyers bringing personal letters into the jail has nothing to do with Casey Anthony’s attorney.
Administrators have posted a sign strongly reminding lawyers visiting the facility that it is a felony to bring in contraband items, including personal letters.
Brad Conway, the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, confirmed that Baez has a standing policy of controlling letters going between Casey Anthony and her family. Conway said his clients are cut off from their daughter.
Conway said the Anthonys are breaking that agreement and will begin mailing letters directly to their daughter. Conway said that defense team member Andrea Lyon agrees that the Anthonys should be able to have a video visit with Casey Anthony.
Blink
I couldn’t find any new updates on Haleigh Cummings, so I didn’t know where to post. But did you hear the T Miller interview about Ronald? Whew!
http://www.bloggernews.net/122090
396 Kleat LKB the Bearded Lady, oh sorry the bearded lady is in Freak Shows not a circus…my bad
blink
are you going to post anything new on regarding Haliegh, just asking…thanks
sorry for going off subject, just been reading and researching a lot these last few days and would love to hear from you and your crew on the subject.
Unfortunately, I am not feeling their is anything new. I already knew Misty was lying, and to my knowledge so does everyone else. We await her talking and telling the truth, not to oversimplify..
B
Maybe Lyon is taking the approach that since her client is not guilty, there is no reason to restrict communication, and also, it humanizes Casey to show a bond with her family? Maybe it is a ‘concession’ so that she can get more info from Cindy & George in terms of background family history, in return?
I have to say, it really did look bad for all involved that they cut off contact.
Kleat
My last post was written before I saw yours.
I think the “hits” in the backyard were from KC hosing herself off after she threw her precious daughter in the muck in the woods.
#80 (O/T)
B-
according to the NG show aired on 8/28/09, Misty Croslin Cumming “has an attorney, Robert Fields.” (see excerpt below)
8/28/09 (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0908/28/ng.01.html):
“CROSLIN: I`m trying to do everything to find her, you know, answer any questions I have to because I know I didn`t do anything with — to that little girl. I would never hurt her. I mean, they love me. I mean, they look at me like their mom, you know? They — you ask little Junior. He`ll tell you, you know? They talk lovely (ph) about me. And I`m so good to them kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it`s my understanding that the waiver stated that she is waiving — that she has an attorney, Robert Fields, and that she is waiving — she`s going against my wishes, actually. It`s my understanding — it was against my wishes — something to the effect of she wanted to prove herself innocent or something.”
(from the context of the transcript, I think the ‘unidentified male’ speaking is Tim Miller, but don’t hold me to it)
however, on the NG show aired on 9/1/09, NeJame claims she’s not represented.(see excerpt below)
9/1/09 (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/01/ng.01.html):
“GRACE: Thank you, Julie in Kentucky.
JULIE: My question is that I don`t understand why she has so many consistencies with her story. What in the world would possess him to marry her?
GRACE: Well..
JULIE: Is he trying to cover something for her? Is he trying to help her?
GRACE: Well, I can tell you this much. Many people think that if you marry then you can`t testify against each other, which is typically true, but in Florida, they have an exception to the husband-wife privilege. If a — harm to a child is the criminal charge, there is no husband-wife privilege. So if that was your motivation, it failed miserably.
And I want to follow up on something. To Mark Nejame, in her story, at some point, she says up to four people were in the home that night. That`s an entirely new story. Who were the four people?
NEJAME: Can`t answer that. All that I know is that.
GRACE: Do you know — you won`t answer or you don`t know?
NEJAME: No, I don`t know. I can tell you, though, if I could relate real quick back to what her lawyer has said. We were told with witnesses that she did not have a lawyer. So for her to now maintained that she had a lawyer, and we knew that she had a lawyer, absolutely untrue.”
so, which is it? does anyone know for certain?
IMO regarding the sudden ’story’ in the media about the Anthony’s ‘poor us parents . . . we haven’t been allowed to see or write to our daughter for 3 months . . . her attorney won’t let us . . . boo hoo . . .sniff sniff’ is a total cover story because the defense team knows how AWFUL it looks that there has been absolutely no contact from family.
Casey refuses to face her parents and will not allow visits.
Someone on the defense came up with this tall tale. Its actually quite brilliant.
Mr. Baez has control of correspondence. Cindy says no. Lyons think it’s a good idea to video. Hmmm. Something smells in the dream team power house. The house of cards will begin to crumble.
thanks blink for the response, I await as well, I feel a storm is a comin….hopefully GREAT Work!
If geo and cin really want to send her letters, they can buy some stamps and mail them. The dispute is that Baez won’t deliver the letters, not that they can’t send her a letter & have it read 1st by jail personnel. So the issue is about confidentiality, not communication. So, what confidential stuff do they want to tell her, and is baez reading their letters like i would?
wsh, that’s for that quote– ‘my client says she is innocent’…. is quite different from what ToddMacs said, Linka K-B and Baez previously. It’s been very clear that Baez did not believe his client from early on, and his actions about controlling letters (we heard from Lee early on, as what Baez could do– warning Casey), Baez has repeated by his actions over and over, he KNOWS that he has not got an ‘innocent’ client. Put the state to its burden YES, but to claim ‘innocent’ might put extra burden on the defence to go the extra distance to keep up with the ‘innocent’ claim vs ‘not guilty’. Why put that burden on client– Ms. Lyon says it’s got to be well thought through before doing that, and they are over a year from trial yet and have been saying this ‘innocent’ thing since at least Linda K-B’s intro many months ago.
Did anyone notice what happened as court was over and Casey got up to leave the table and turn around– Todd stood up, as did Ms. Lyon’s assistant, and thought it was surely not intentional on the ‘guest’ assistant, Todd was right between Casey and her parents. He completely ignored Casey’s possible need to make eye contact with her mother and minimally that was rude, but have to wonder if it might have also been strategic. The mother could not see her daughter face to face, no matter how she tried to get a view around Mt. Todd.
Ms. Lyon seemed oblivious to this, but I wouldn’t buy that for a second as she too, seemed to ignore her own lecture, of the need for family support for the client so why blocking the view– unless they were worried about Casey losing it and saying something she should not. If a client in this position were to be on the verge of calling out to a parent– ‘I’m sorry!, it could mean a lot of things other than ‘I’m guilty’, but it would take some explaining.
I’d think that hearing ‘the remains’ from ToddyMacs and the ‘innocent’ claim must have struck home with the parents, who know better. Hearing repeatedly, that Casey is facing death, we are ‘trying’ to save Ms. Anthony’s life, in the courtroom, must also have hit home hard for them. They know what she is facing, but that’s the first time it’s been so forcefully stated in the courtroom and in front of the parents.
Maybe they NEED to let Casey know their true feelings, uncensored by the Baez patrol. Maybe they want to plead with her to tell the truth, that they want to save her. Baez has seemingly controlled all of their letters to Casey, maybe they write and scan the letters, which he can then edit and show to Casey on his laptop, which is not contraband, and then take a letter out of the jail in return, next visit.
Isolating a client from support of family, keeps Casey in line tightly, with what Baez and her defense want of her– to keep up the innocent stand. (Ms. Lyon seems to be the odd-lawyer out, or hypocritical– I think the former for now)
Thanks, Kleat.
Lily, the ironic thing is I quit smoking five years before I was diagnosed with lung ca!!! I’m not even fifty yet so that’s pretty young, but it’s like there’s a cancer epidemic right now. I was extremely lucky.
I’m so sorry to hear of your dad. Very best wishes for your mom.
Blink, do you think Baez is conducting himself in a manner such as what he’s doing, in an attempt to either have an outcome of a mistrial, or a way for Casey to declare “insufficient council”? And if so, will he be successful? Why do you personally think he’s pulling all these stunts?
I wil defer my professional and highly researched answer for now.
SO
My glib answer is that he acts this way because he was last kid picked for dodgeball and the first one out every game.
B
Thank you Maura! “If Maura don’t know, it ain’t so.”
That’s my new motto for today.
While Angela was working on Casey’s room she discovered two photo’s showing the placement of Casey’s bed. One was before the Greta visit. The bed is in a different spot than prior to Greta visiting in the first photo. Then after Greta’s filming it is moved back to the old spot. Greta specifically asks Cindy if this is how the room has always been.
Angela opened the site to let us in to get a feel of how to move around, visit the scenes,ect. She is off on another private area getting the whole scene as realistic as she can. She will move that over as she finishes each scene.
She has set up the room with buttons to push to move the bed as it was in the Greta filming.
There is info on the vrhacks forum (that is to communicate about Second Life and how to do things) about audio. Angela has set up audio you can listen to of important aspects of the case. Really let’s you be at the scene and lets you hear through your headsets the reality spoken in “their” own words. And she is setting up the TV’s to play things pertinent to the case.
The moving of the bed leads us to wonder if perhaps the body had been under the bed at one time…..
Thanks Maura!
Also, if Casey does end up pointing to George and Casey, how do you think the A’s will react to all of a sudden their wonderful daughter throwing them under the bus? Will that be the move that makes George and Cindy wake up and realize Casey is exploiting them, and in the end, finally giving the truth up?
Bee’s I am sending you a big hug. When you posted here at Blink’s you sort of grabbed us Blinkers. We so looked forward to you coming and then, for some danged reason, you became someone we HAD to get to Second Life. I think we had an idea you might just be one special person, because we all had a special feeling for this unknown “Bees Knees”. I kid you not.
Kleat, the only smoking allowed is the campfire in our secret cornfield. But, it is amazing what you might find in the cornfield.
WSH, the minute I read that about the “new sign up at the jail” I thought of Cindy’s probably behind that. She’d be just the one to maybe start something….
http://www.wftv.com/video/18206288/index.html
Early indications (somewhere around 4 mins) that Baez has told Casey and that the parents know too, by this Jail visit of July 30, 2008, that they are NOT to talk about the case.
(Cindy begins to say “Is there any… is there any…” and Casey cuts her off by saying “Mom, we can’t….”
Cindy says “No No No… ” and goes on to say she was going to ask Casey if there was anything she wanted her to tell Caylee through the media”.
This jail conversation also is telling a few other things too, how the relationship is with Shirley has suffered, they can’t talk to her now, and later in the video, George talks about how Grandpa Anthony is not well, has has some episodes, and how this has all been hard on them.
And they talk about the need of family support etc… now, over 13 months later, Casey has not seen or spoken with her parents, unless Baez could do it via laptop in his visits, and the letters through the Baez Secret communications watchdogs with black felt pens.
There is a chink in the defense armour showing– what happens when a client can not speak to anyone but the lawyer about the lawyer’s work/quality. The client’s parents can do nothing for an adult child to change her representation, Baez surely controlled them discussing his quality of work or her feelings about how well he was doing for her or how another lawyer, more experienced, might give other options to the client.
This, poor advice, poor representation, is a huge problem for clients never been in a situation before, from an elderly person who has never even heard the term litigation before, even in a civil matter, they can be ‘led down the garden path’ by a lawyer who decides to go outside of his or her knowledge and abilities, for their own purposes after decades not using their law degree and coming back to the field to do litigation, taking clients who do not know better into litigation vs mediation, clients who would never survive the process but don’t know that it can do them in physically, all based on outdated law and bad judgement. No way for a client, who has no experience with lawyers, to know to get other advice, but from family or friends– sometimes a client NEEDS a second opinion, to save their life, whether for family law, or for a capital case– the loss can be the same in the end– loss of life.
ive had an ear infection,pain and sleep,maura thanks for all the answers to earlier questions,ive been reading.one more;where is the very first reference to the blanchard park incident,is that available?was it casey.lee or cindy who first told that story? cuz, could it be the(a) fight between cindy and casey just relocated to bpark?could casey be wanting to claim cindy did assault her and take caylee from her?
kleat the potty training thing stuck out to me too,but i guess if you tug- along- a- tot to your friends apartments ,having to be on diaper alert is alot different than not having to be on diaper alert,for the friends sake too.So i am sure she is mentioning this cuz she wants it to hurry up and happen already(not being a mom,i’m sure you moms could add to this),Also on same note (watched misty’s tests),if haleigh was beaten to death, it was for wetting the bed.
http://www.memphisparent.com/2008/09/when-parents-lose-control
I have a real concern over Baez’s control of Casey’s mail and connection with her family. To me it seems he purposely isolated her from her family in order to control all information she was receiving.
I remember at the beginning of the case Lee’s concerns about not being able to trust Baez. I have to wonder what kind of repercussions could arise if there is a guilty verdict. Baez hand picked all the other members of the legal team including Lyon who is only available one or two days a week. I think everything Baez has done has been done to secure his place as lead attorney and control this trial to keep his name out there. We have no real way of knowing what information Baez may have kept from Casey and if would have had some different outcome for the case.
#436-Lily
I think that they have been communicating, but not in any manner that the public or officials can review. Whether via laptop, or verbally, Baez is surely passing along messages, although they may be carefully constructed to suit his purposes. We have seen Baez act as puppet master to George, calling him and provoking him to storm into NeJame’s press conference.
If any mail goes to or from the jail, directly, or a face to face meeting is video-taped, I suspect that the whole dance will have been choreographed ahead of time by the defense; questions and answers, comments and actions, emotions, etc.
# 440-Kleat it was …my client says she is “NOT GUILTY”….big step.
Anyway, your observations in court were spot on. WTH is going on?
{Kleat}”Maybe they NEED to let Casey know their true feelings, uncensored by the Baez patrol. Maybe they want to plead with her to tell the truth, that they want to save her. Baez has seemingly controlled all of their letters to Casey, maybe they write and scan the letters, which he can then edit and show to Casey on his laptop, which is not contraband, and then take a letter out of the jail in return, next visit.”{Kleat}
I hope that you are right, and that this is genuine. I have become suspect of everything.
# 446- The post is thoughtful and sad. Thanks for re-humanizing the situation.
# 445-Shelly-lol!
Maybe I’m totally off on this but my feeling has always been that it’s Casey herself that doesn’t want contact with her parents. IMO, she cannot see them because they now know what she’s done and she doesn’t want any contact with them. If it was so that Baez was responsible for keeping them away, why would Casey virtually ignore them in court? She doesn’t give them a glance or any acknowledgement if she can help it.
any thoughts?
They are trying to pre empt her for the bus positioning, whose head will be under the tire?
Speaking of “tire” I am so tired of these games with these people.
B
So it first starts off that the Nanny took Caylee…..well, that fell thru. Now she was taken from Casey at the Blanchard Park…well, that fell thru as well. Now, it’s Jesse who may have taken her. Now in #218, Blink you say she’s going to finger one or both of her parents who will in turn plead the 5th. Does that not point to “Guilty” right off the bat? Giving a testimony and not “sticking to it”? Casey signed a sworn affidavit about the Nanny story & Sawgrass Apts & that was WHAT HAPPENED….Just confess and get this over with and give Caylee the justice she so deserves. That entire family is wasting everyone’s time, money and efforts to save their lying, cheating, stealing daughter. For what? I hope George, Cindy and Lee read this, and let everything soak in about what is being said, done, investigated on, etc. You reap what you sow, Anthony’s. What goes around, comes around I say.
Nope.
Points to Reasonable doubt, which is the goal.
B
Re: the Baez thing, could it be standard for a defense atty to want to isolate his client from witnesses for the prosecution, which is what Geo and Cindy are, after all?
I have always felt that Casey killing Caylee may have had to do with the issue of potty training and or wetting the bed. Casey lost her temper and “accidently” killed Caylee and then the lies began. IIRRC she had a book about child rearing and tantrums etc were marked with post its. I also thiank that Caylee seing able to talk better and converse about what was really going on in their lives would get back to C+G and cause more problems than Casey could deal with. The lies would be exposed and the source of the speak had to be silenced.
Just watched the link posted above in #446. I like to rewatch these videos. Was so glad to hear that C was able to get a good night’s sleep the night before. Does she not have nightmares? You can see the anguish in her parents’ faces — the lack of sleep, not eating. But she seems to be doing just fine. If she could just get out of there and go home, everything would be jim dandy. That young woman is truly one-in-a-million — and not in a good way!!
Question relating to the recent headlines in this case. If contraband=felony and letters=contraband and Baez has openly and publicly stated he is passing letters from Anthony’s to his client and Anthony’s also confirm he is and has been doing this for some time…WTH??? No repercussion for these actions?? What, he didn’t know better? LOL
doselady, I am leaning towards the “young mother who snapped” theory, which is one of the common causes of mothers who kill their children. Tantrums could definitely play a part in that. One of the symptoms, if you will, is mothers who have reported that they feel they are on the edge of a breakdown or fearful they might harm their children, and when those warning signs are missed or ignored, it has a really tragic outcome like this case. We know that casey had in the past told one or two people that she thought she should be committed for awhile, and that she was a bad mother. When there is suffocation (think duct tape) it is sometimes the mom making a hugely wrong effort to silence a child who won’t stop crying or carrying on.
I know that theory doesn’t play well to the DP-hungry crowd who want or need it to be premeditated, but it’s a real thing that happens in real life, and to me there are signs pointing towards this. It certainly doesn’t excuse her from guilt, but it might explain why this horrible thing happened.
Just heard the Padilla tapes will be released on Friday. And the reward check for $35,000 for Haleigh’s return has been cut. Busy afternoon — if it’s all true.
Yes, thanks. Lordy. I hear that $35K is a firestorm.
B
If, in a rage, Casey put her hands over Caylees mouth and nose to keep her from crying for Cindy(re: the big fight on 6/15)..there would be no proof on the bones. The hyoid would be useless. Only if Caylee had been found before advanced decomp would they know this. I honestly think that she was killed this way and Casey then put the body in the hamper she had in the trunk till there was decomp.(2.6 days later). Then she double bagged her and before her car was dumped at the parking lot(in hopes that the smell would go away in a few days), dumped the baby in the field so she could make sure no one found the body and she could watch from home. Casey knew about animal damage as she had buried her animals in the same place and knew that if she bided her time, there would be nothing left of Caylee ..she honestly figured that if there was no body she would get away with it. She had always gotten away with her crimes before(remember that no one ever took her to task for anything before), so why not now?? I truly and honestly think Casey believes that she is going to get away with this, that’s why she is acting like this..
I know all of the Haleigh talk is off topic - but I just read on FirstCoastNews that Ron’s attorney is saying there was a misunderstanding and Ron doesn’t know where Haleigh is.
No surprise.
Shelly, thank you for saying such sweet and wonderful things to me. I feel all puffed up about myself now! HA!!! I just feel honoured to be amidst all the brain power and in this wonderful and respectful atmosphere. It just can’t get any better than this!
Yes, Dondura, if Casey has told her attorney that she is innocent (well how many murderers don’t try that), and if she has said she will stick to that no matter what, if Baez believes that he knows who did the crime/accidental death or had a hand in it, he should bring that out in the open, but if not, it’s a trial ploy. Maybe Andrea Lyon figures Casey’s best choice is to play the ‘innocent’ and blame someone else and if that’s their only choice with this client, maybe there’s a reason they are doing it ‘early’ vs later after investigations are completed. (unless in their ongoing investigations, they are patsy-hunting only).
Can you imagine the harm that continues to be done to Casey’s grandparents on both sides, and this will only escalate and probably do the elderly people in, as they have no escapes, no releases from what could become an all out attack on their own children, Cindy and George. No stress release for the elderly grandparents of Ms. Casey. Does Ms. Lyon even care if she adds a death sentence to these people? Not likely.
WSH, why on earth would we be cynical of things– other than this case breeds cynicism and suspicion out of Cindy/Geo duo and Baez’s core behaviours– and all the tag-alongs of MIlsteads and the Blacks and the Garrisons, etc.
447
The first mention of the Blanchard Park abduction story (that I am aware of) is in Cindy’s FBI interview of July 30.
#464 - Kleat - This is a cast of seedy characters, for sure. When you have a collective bunch like this, what usually happens is that they all have “something” on eachother, and there is usually a price ($$) attached. At some point, peace and harmony amongst the cast members will make way to “what’s in it for me to reveal what I know?” And what price will it pay me? Then this tight little cast of characters are no longer contained, the unity is weakened, and the threat that some truth will come out is very real.
No one can keep the secrets involved in this case for long. It seems as if everything is in favor of the defense at this point, while the prosecution dutifully plugs away with their case and the defense gets away with their little games. IMO the tide will turn and it will change the direction of this case. Someone in this cast of characters is going to spill what they know and it will be a bombshell.
Hi, got signed up for the forum, do I need an invitation before finding the group on SL? Thanks!
Shelly
At 2:29 in the following video is a photo of Caylee sitting on Casey’s bed. There’s no date, but Caylee’s hair is very short and her face is quite babyish. I would guess the photo was taken in mid-to-late 2006. The arrangement of the furniture is exactly as it is in the December 2008 LE photos of Casey’s room (the nightstand in the corner to the left of the bed and nothing is blocking the wall mirror).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzyPJa2hd2c&feature=fvw
If the link doesn’t work, go to YouTube and search for a video titled “UnSpokenable Angel: The Caylee Anthony Story” posted by PinkStarGirl96. The video title is regrettable, but the photos are good.
The arrangement of furniture in that old circa 2006 photo is identical to the arrangement of the room during Local 6’s exclusive in-house interview with Cindy on November 19. Cindy and reporter Jessica D’Onofrio are sitting on Casey’s bed, and the furniture placement is the same as in the December 2008 LE photos taken three weeks later (dresser in front of the window, green window covering, etc.).
You can see the December 2008 LE photos of Casey’s room in a slideshow on the WESH website. The slideshow photos are definitely from December 2008 because the CSIs were quite obviously piling items on the bed at various times and taking close-ups of heart-shaped sticker and sticker sheets.
I am not including the links for the news websites because I know from experience that too many hyperlinks in one comment means the comment will vanish. The Local 6 interview still shots are on the clickorlando.com website (Google “Jessica D`Onofrio Interview with Cindy November 19” and you’ll pull up the link). The December 2008 CSI photos are on the WESH.com website in a slideshow titled “Images: Inside the Anthony Home.”
My opinion is that Cindy moved the furniture around (and removed the dark green window covering and floor clutter) to make the room look bigger and brighter for the August 5 Greta: On the Record cameras. When Greta asked her if the room looked as it always looks, IMO Cindy lied to Greta because the truth was that in its usual configuration, the room looks cramped and dark.
You can tell the bed isn’t usually pushed into the corner the way it was in the Greta interview because the headboard is partly blocking the window and is covering the bottom 6-8 inches of the wall mirror. I don’t see how anyone could possibly make that bed in the morning without pulling it away from the wall and then pushing it back into place after straightening out the linens. And it’s rather strange that in addition to blocking the bottom of the wall mirror at the front of the bed, there’s a mounted hat rack directly above the side of the bed that is pushed against the wall.
On the wall above the headboard in the “LE photo” placement of the furniture, a group of framed photos are arranged in a way to form a design that is centered over the headboard when the bed is in its usual (non-Greta) position. That’s another clue that Cindy only moved the bed for her first national TV audience.
I don’t believe the furniture was moved around to hide a missing section of carpet or that Caylee’s body was under Casey’s bed or hidden anywhere else in the house. I do believe Cindy lied because she didn’t want to admit to Greta that she had altered the room to make a better impression on Greta’s viewers.
For people who haven’t watched the old Greta interview, it’s on YouTube and the Fox website. I bookmarked the two-part interview that was posted on YouTube by bigjuicykungfu. The videos are titled “caylee marie anthony greta otr 1” and “caylee marie anthony greta otr 2.”
http://www.thesky973.com/pages/5116339.php
“I asked Padilla if he had any suggestions. He responded by offering his help to Misty if she wanted it.
Padilla suggested taking her away from her surroundings for safety reasons–perhaps flying her to Canada in order to get some straight answers and to provide her an attorney.”
Blink I know you said it before, sorry for the break in subject matter, but I had to share this, Why would LP want to take Misty to Canada?
thanks!
NO CLUE, except the attorney part, I do believe she needs one and it would help if she were actually willing to talk.
B
# 468-
I think that Padilla referencing Canada, implying a ‘quiet Siberia’, far far away from Florida, where a subject might answers questions, is just typical Padilla hyperbole.
Sorry I was responding to # 469, not 468
might ‘answer’ questions…correction. Perhaps I speak english, but can’t write it. I would have a good excuse if it were my second language!
sorry for the break in subject matter, just came across this, found it a little strange, well maybe not where LP is concerned
WSH, and a guarantee she’d stay in Canada if she has killed the child or planned/hired and could face death penalty as she would not be extradited if the dp were involved.
Judge will set Casey Anthony’s check-fraud trial date in near future
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/orl-bk-casey-anthony-court-090309,0,5656942.story
EXCERPT:
“This Court cannot justify making the victim wait even longer to have this matter resolved,” Strickland wrote. “Therefore, in the coming days the Court will set this matter for pretrial and trial.”
WOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO The judge ruled on the motion for the check fraud………http://wdbo.com/localnews/2009/09/breaking-casey-anthony-trial-t.html
Question: Has there been any mention lately about the defense team or any friend/relative/associate of the Anthony family who is actually out searching for Caylee’s murderer? I vaguely remember a while back that Cindy said something about it, but I can’t remember what she said. Is Dominick Casey still employed by the A’s? Is he looking for the real killer? We know that LE isn’t out there because they have the person behind bars. But if I was convinced, as the A’s are, that my daughter was innocent, I’d certainly be out there every day looking for the real perpetrator of this crime. Has anybody seen/heard anything about this? Thanx.
#458 Excuses are given by those in situations such as these who don’t want to accept responsibility for their actions and push blame onto anything and anyone other than themselves. I am not going to be one of those who “tries to get to know the offender, try to get inside their head so I can “understand” how and why this happened.” This is typical of those who commit crimes, and then to lessen the damage or attempt to not be held responsible for their actions, they bring up their past, “Oh, I was abused”, “I had an alcoholic father”, “I had PTSD”. It does not matter. Their are alot of people with those same kinds of pasts, and they don’t wind up physically ending someone’s life all in the name of “I’m a victim, not my fault”
#476 YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#474-
Kleat, with (whatever) due respect to Padilla, I don’t believe he has your analytical skills. But that is a great point!
MAURA - Can you post the link to the Greta interview showing Casey’s room on the Fox site? I’ve been searching Fox (their search engine is pathetic) for over 30 min. and can’t get it to link.
Thanks so much for all you do
Maura - I am at work and can’t get on utube do to company filters by the way. Thats why I need the Greta link
Just didn’t want you to think I was lazy LOL
Maura, Thank you for your post. We knew you would add insight and information to get to the bottom of this! Sending Maura a great big Blinker hug from all!
Kleat, go to the VRhack site and send SHELLY a private message or just post your Second Life name on the forum. Copy and paste it if you can.
Second Life will let you chose a sign in name if it’s not taken. But they make you chose from a list of second names. It takes both names to signin to Second Life, then we add you to the Virtual Juror group.
http://forum.vrhacks.net/index.php
The cornfield is a secret area for only us Blinkers. We’ll get you there!
***************************************************************
TO ALL:
Once added to the Virtual Jurior group.
In top left of your Second Life screen click on EDIT.
Find GROUPS from drop down.
Click on groups and highlight VIRTUAL JUROR from the box that comes up.
Click on IM/CALL.
This will get you into private chat with the Virtual Jurior group.
Once there click on the green phone button at top of chat box.
Then you can hear us talking. We can type in chat box and help you get a mike set up. If no mike you can hear us and we can type back and forth to you.
Remember my stock tip. There has been a run on those cheapie pc headphones with a mike!
Woot, woot Biaz has to go to a real trial. HeHe the check fraud case!
Pamela the links to Greta’s visit to the Anthony home are on the vrHacks site. Angela posted them a few days ago.
Thanks Shelly..
I too from looking at all the pics think that Cindy was only attempting to make the room look better. No “cover-up” involved.
blink, perhaps you can put to rest a couple of the “rumors” I have heard. One has been Casey arrogantly claiming that she hopes this trial moves to Miami, so that when the trial is over, she can “work on her tan”. Also, she was planning on “outsmarting” the prosecution, because if they seek and get the DP, she’ll get one over on them and “knock herself off” first
I dont see how anyone can confirm a rumor without speaking to the source, so no.
B
Also, blink, in your opinion, what punishment will Casey receive due to the check fraud and forgery case?
Depends. If she pleads guilty, I presume there will be some dialog in advance about sentencing. My best guess is she will get “time”, but either partial suspended and probation or time served. I dont think she will need it in her pocket for the murder charge..
B
I know its been covered before, but in going thru several interviews again lately, and even though my masters was in Psych, I am by no means a qualified counselor, I’ve noticed that whenever Cindy is being “deceptive” in her answers they always begin with “I know for sure…..” and then she distracts herself with the nearest object i.e. petting the dogs, grabbing her water, rearranging her clothing or mouthing something to her atty and rolling her eyes. That behaviour is classic textbook cover for a deceptive demeanor in answering questions. Whereas George will star without blinking blank faced until the next question. When he is telling the truth he is very animated and talkative, usually giving more information than is being requested, deceptive he is blunt, curt and will not blink.
Pamela,
Shelly told you where to find the links, and I see that you found them and watched them. For anyone else (you have to be registered at the wrhacks forums, however), here is the link to a thread with several videos and photo slideshows of Casey’s bedroom at different times over the year.
http://forum.vrhacks.net/showthread.php?t=677
As noted upthread, I don’t believe Cindy was covering up any incriminating carpet cut-outs. It occurred to me this morning that IF a dog had hit on a section of the carpet in Casey’s bedroom, then the entire room (actually the whole house) would have been sealed off as a crime scene back on July 17 when the dogs were brought in. LE would have taken the entire carpet, methinks.
And let’s say hypothetically that a piece had been cut from a section of the carpet; it would have been far easier (and completely undetectable) to have patched the missing area with a section of carpet backing and then throwing a patterned area rug on top (with colors to tie in with the window covering and bedding).
What Cindy did only drew Greta’s attention to the cock-eyed arrangement of the furniture. It was so obvious to Greta that the bed did not appear to belong in the corner that she asked Cindy about the arrangement of the room. By Cindy’s November 19 interview with Local 6, she didn’t bother to move