Blink On Crime Kyron Horman Investigation Exclusive: DeDe Spicher Interview Yields Allegations Of Illegal Steroid Use Terri Horman Took To Police
A Blink On Crime Exclusive: DeDe Spicher speaks for the first time about her ordeal in the Kyron Horman investigation- continued ©
S. Christina Stoy, Editor In Chief- Blink On Crime
DeDe Spicher and Terri Moulton Horman
In the first part of blinkoncrime.com’s exclusive interview with DeDe Spicher, she revealed that after over 3 years of attempting to provide Multnomah County Sheriffs Office as well as Assistant Deputy Attorney Norm Frink with the necessary information they requested to clear her from any suspicion in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Skyline second grader Kyron Horman; she has finally been cleared after passing a polygraph as part of her requirement under an immunity deal that has been sealed with the court. Unofficially cleared, that is.
Spicher and her attorney Chad Stavley, who have since refused all local media requests, would very much like the Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office and current District Attorney Rod Underhill to clear her officially and publicly.
Spicher is adamant that law enforcement never had any reason to question her statements to them from the beginning, has cooperated fully for over three years and recently testified before the grand jury to prove she had nothing to hide. While she would like the public to know that any assertions to the contrary are untrue, and sometimes have been offered maliciously, her desire to speak out about her experience over the last three years is primarily to force investigative resources to review it’s progress- and hopefully adjust in a way to further leads in Kyron’s case.
As was proven not only by her recent polygraph, but also by the verification that no evidence ever existed to support investigator’s theory in the first place, Spicher had no information about anyone’s potential involvement in Kyron’s disappearance, let alone her own.
The continuation of our interview, which provoked some very interesting revelations long felt to be a possibility by many, was confirmed by Ms. Spicher as she says- told to her by Terri Moulton Horman are prompting new possible theories in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Kyron Horman. Two days after Kyron Horman’s eleventh birthday.
Stoy: So, in your estimation then, why do you think that detectives Herron and Kravfe were so sure that you were involved or knew who was.
Spicher: I have thought about this a lot, and I think there were a few reasons. I think because I was advised through a meeting Terri had with a family friend and attorney that she should assume that all of her communication was being monitored by law enforcement and anyone she had contact with. He told her to assume the house was bugged as well as vehicles, etc. I also believe you did an article a while back that pointed out her phone was in Kaine’s name. As this was a day or two after she was served with the restraining order, she was also told that
Stoy (interrupting): You bought a prepaid phone after June 28th and never had one before that? I had read that you or someone else purchased them the day of or the day after Kyron’s disappearance.
Spicher: No. I purchased one prepaid phone, after Terri shared the info from her meeting, in my own name, either June 29th or 30th. I think they were hung up on the fact that I came to her aid with no contact for so long so they just were convinced there had to be.
Stoy: ok, sorry, continue. So you are not saying that LE was suggesting that you were hiding some other number you had and that was how they were alleging that you HAD to have been in contact with Terri or some other person prior to and on June 4th and that escalated your “poi” status in your opinion?
Spicher: They did not say that to me specifically, but what they repeated over and over again, was that Terri and I had to have had some form of communication we were hiding. It never made any sense to me because I knew I only had my cell that I had forever until the end of June, and I knew I had not been in contact with Terri since her 40th birthday party in March. So I would ask- well then I guess that means that you don’t have any contacts you can’t verify from either of us so why am I even in this “interview”?
To my recollection they never shared with me or answered any of my questions in response when something they kept hounding me about seemed absurd and conflicting with their theory.
Stoy: Which was?
Spicher: At first, I think that they really believed I was involved, and at some point I think they were talking more “accessory after the fact” because I got the impression ( although they did not share it with me) that Terri’s cell phone activity that day was nowhere near where I was, and my vehicle never left, nor did I. They would not verify that they located the ceramics/glassware artist [pottery artisan] I told you about and still have not.
Stoy: So in your opinion, you were clearly the linchpin of this case, they [LE] believed you held the key to solving it and/or implicating Terri exclusively at that point, they no longer entertained your involvement per se?
Spicher: I honestly don’t think I could say that I ever believed that they stopped treating me as some sort of suspect. I never felt that way, but yes, absolutely they 100% believe that Terri is responsible and I definitely believed we all had to be interviewed and scrutinized or whatever, but I really thought up until the meeting with Norm Frink that they [LE] would abandon that theory quickly because if they were positive I was the key, and I knew I was not, that would also eliminate Terri, who I did not and do not believe, but have no proof, was involved or knew anything.
Stoy: Right, so if you had nothing, and they felt you were the only nexus, it had to mean that they had no independent evidence of anything or anyone else so they would start in another direction?
Spicher: Right, but every interaction I had with them following and including the request to participate in the sting against her, made me believe they never did. To get back to the why question you asked me- my final thought on that is that they kept pointing out that I was the person to tell everyone not to speak to them without attorneys in the beginning. I would ask like who do you mean, because that would have been my opinion across the board for any situation, but it was definitely based on what was getting out about how they were going about this. I was scared and it turned out it was good reason. I also would point out to them that I did not think that was or should be the basis for suspicion because if it was, it seemed to me that I was told that several staff members at Skyline had hired counsel, and Kaine was the FIRST to have one between he and Terri and I had told her at least a week or so before that she should.
Stoy: Why do you think she did not immediately take your friendly advice? Your Dad was LE, and I presume she knew that. People can say what they want, but I know many members of law enforcement in different jurisdictions and agencies. I have worked with them or contributed analysis to cases with them privately [I cannot and would not ever include that in anything I choose to write on] and I can tell you that I do not know one of them that if they were the focus of a criminal probe or internal investigation they absolutely do not agree to an interview without a representative. In fact, Herron is or was the President of Mulnomah County Police Union or was, if I recall correctly. So to that end, I find that a pretty hypocritical reason for suspicion of anyone.
Spicher: (laughs) Interesting. I am not sure that I knew that. The reason Terri didn’t get an atty before the RO was because she was told by LE that if she did, she wouldn’t be privvy to any of their investigative discoveries, she would be out of the loop in finding Kyron.
Stoy: Have you had a desire or opportunity to review any sort of past events regarding the MCSO, I guess I should add, that involve anyone in this case or investigation you have had contact with?
Spicher: No, do you mean like any other detectives or that sort of thing?
Stoy: Have you ever met with or been interviewed with any other agencies or detectives?
Spicher: I believe I either met or just said hello to the guy you mentioned in that recent article of yours while he was at the house. Both Kaine and Terri were there at the time as well.
Stoy: Bobby O’Donnell?
Spicher: That’s it, yes, him. Why did you ask me if I am aware of any sort of events- should I be?
Stoy: Well, I think that tangentially if I were you I would be considering just about everything as it related to what you have been through, and I am aware of some what I will refer to as “stuff” but what I don’t want to do prior to the completion of our interview process is temper any of your responses with anything I know peripherally if that’s ok with you. If you wish, once I publish the continuation which will have that sort of information, I would invite you to comment on it for the record if you choose- are you ok with that?
Spicher: yes, that’s fine and probably a good idea.
Stoy: back briefly to the “sting request against Terri- On that issue- the request they extended to you outside the presence of your attorney and that they asked you not to tell Chad, as you think back , considering you have had no communication with Horman for over three years did you believe they thought it would work? What did your attorney say when you told him?
Spicher: I can’t and won’t address any conversations I have had with my attorney, but to answer your question as to my opinion, I really don’t know for sure, I knew that I did not, and thought it was really, really odd- that was my first reaction. After more thought, and other conversations, I don’t see how they thought it would work, or why they were still seemingly convinced after I had just passed the poly, etc, Terri was still their suspect and responsible. What is your opinion on it?
Stoy: I think I may reserve my thoughts on that for my piece. Again, not wanting to temper your opinions as we move along here and I think that could happen if I did. Is that ok with you?
Spicher: Sure, thank you.
Stoy: I would like to move on to another subject for discussion. I would just like to confirm for the record that I have never prior to this interview, asked you any questions about your potential knowledge of steroid use by yourself, or by Terri or Kaine Horman. Is that correct?
Spicher: Correct, ok.
Stoy: Did they ask you this?
Spicher: Who is they? You got a lot of pronouns flying around (laughs).
Stoy: Fair point, you’re right. The good news is, as English, or should I say proper English is my second language (laughs) I use an copy editor. Allow me to rephrase please. Did anyone in law enforcement at any time ask you about steroids or other illegal injectable supplements sometimes used in weight training or body building in your interviews in this case?
Spicher: Your question was did they [le] ask me anything about steroids or anything injectable ever?
Stoy: (laughs) now who’s throwing around the pronouns?
Spicher: (laughs) touche’ . I was asked about it very vaguely in the beginning, I told them I had never used them, that I did not believe Terri ever did because she and I had similar views against using them and while we were on different supplement regimens when I was training for a marathon in 2008 I still remembered her to be knowledgeable about legal and effective nutritional supplements. I had no reason to believe she had ever used any kind of steroids. I can’t say conclusively she never did but it would shock me.
Stoy: Why shock you?
Spicher: Because a few years back I recall Terri telling me that Kaine was what she referred to as “juicing” and that his behavior had become very aggressive and well, impatient or overeactive with the kids and she had discussed it with him and he ignored her.
Stoy: So for the record, when you say juicing you are referring to illegal steroids, not my Omega specials I make, correct? That was the only question they ever asked you and did not ask any follow up questions like how long ago, etc, etc. And so would you characterize the way law enforcement asked that question and their reaction to your response as disinterested, or having nothing to do with the case?
Spicher: I was never asked about Kaine’s use of steroids by either detectives or the grand jury. But yes, that is what she told me. I actually had forgotten all about it until she refreshed my recollection when I stayed there with her. To the best of my memory I was asked just what I said, I answered as I just said and was never asked any follow up question nor was it mentioned again to me by law enforcement . I don’t think I ever really understood what they did or did not think in terms of my information was important to the case, but yes, they were disinterested from my perspective as to it was the only time I was ever asked about it over the course of three and a half years and so my assumption is they still are. But that is my assumption.
Stoy: Understood, you are referring to the time you stayed at the Horman home late June 2010 through early July 2010 following Kaine’s service of the restraining order and her exclusive use of the home? Spicher: I am not sure about the exclusive use part, I didn’t really know anything about how that sort of thing worked and I think for some reason I want to say Terri was not allowed to show anyone.
Stoy: Ok. Tell me everything you know about that. But, I would like you to see if you can provide me your recollection from what you were told about steroid use PRIOR to your conversations about it that refreshed your memory. By the way, who else knows about this, if you know.
Spicher: Terri’s attorney Stephen Houze.
Stoy: How would you know that?
Spicher: Because I helped her load them up, what appeared to me to be syringes in a box and deliver it to her attorney’s office, she said, at his request. She also located some cancelled checks for what she said was Kaine’s payment for steroids. I don’t remember who they were made out to but it was not to cash.
Stoy: ok, understood, we will get back to that. I want to try and focus on what she told you those “few years back.” Do you recall what year, even ballpark.
Spicher: I want to say, but can’t be sure, it was after her competition in 2005, and I am tempted to say it was around the time they got married or shortly thereafter- I am just not going to be much help in remembering this if you are asking me to extract what I remembered from then on my own.
Stoy: Nope, that’s what I am asking, your fine, I don’t want to lead you but let me ask you a few things that may help. Do you remember where you were during the conversation.
Spicher: I remember it was either the one and only time I ever had lunch with Terri, or it was during a time she called my cell, Terri had a lot of drama, and so I was in a Home & Garden Show class and I recall I was saying things out loud to let he know I was not free to talk really or respond as she was talking, so I was saying things like… I don’t know, we should probably touch base on that when I am done here, or sounds good that we chat on it later.
Stoy: The brush up the other party is not getting, like that?
Spicher: Yes, she was not getting it and so I was kind of 50% paying attention. It was either during that call or at the lunch. Other than that, I am not remembering the timing so well.
Stoy: But you would say a few years before Kyron went missing so based on that 2007 or 2008? Do you remember if they were married at the time?
Spicher: Again, we were friends for a good number of years but not close friends, I almost felt like if she was calling me or talking to me about it she had no other option at the time.
Stoy: Got it. What did she say
Spicher: She said that Kaine had been aggressive with her and impatient with the children and she attributed that to his “juicing”. She confronted him and she felt he did not listen to her. She told me that she then called a detective and turned in Kaine’s seller. The member at the gym, I used to know the name but I really can’t recall because I was in the early morning crowd and this guy was more afternoon, I presume when they were there or they saw him. I had stopped going to the same gym as them ater the first year or two I met them there.
Stoy: So she called a detective to turn in the seller Kaine was buying steroids from? Wasn’t she concerned about the fact that buying them is also illegal and that Kaine could face charges?
SPicher: She told me that she contacted a detective and said she would be willing to turn over information about someone selling steroids but only if she could do so anonymously and without saying who was buying them, etc.
Stoy: So it was your understanding that she was trying to work out a scenario that would stop Kaine’s use without him ever knowing it was her by turning in that person? Sort of like… she gets approval to remain anonymous, she gives the tip and then one day comes home and says… “Hey honey, guess what I heard at the gym.. you better stop that or you could be arrested for it, etc?
Spicher: Yes, something like that. Except and again, we have discussed it at one or both these occasions, but that did not work out. The detective called her again directly and she was upset that there was further contact. From what I recall, I think that was the tone of what she was telling me.
Stoy: Understood, so you are thinking that it may have been why she was sort of wired about it and not hearing you try to go about your day, but insisting and venting like she was upset by it.
Spicher: Yes, I think so.
Stoy: Do you think she could have called you because your Dad was law enforcement and she might need that sort of advice. I don’t think so because she did not ask for any. So then what? Did Kaine find out?
Spicher: I just remember there was some sort of investigation of the guy, and I really don’t know if Kaine ever found out about it or knows to this day. If the seller or anyone was arrested or anything else at the time I do not remember, that was how much I paid attention to it then until Terri reminded me of it.
Stoy: Ok. Now, why is it that Terri was discussing it with you when you were staying at the house with her in your view?
Spicher: Because after the restraining order was served and I guess she realized where Kaine was headed, it was sort of like- if he was going to badmouth her, in her estimation it was false, but anyway, that Kaine had skeletons in his own closet sort of thing. She told her lawyer [Houze] and she said he instructed her to bring the syringes and the cancelled checks to his office. We did.
Stoy: So was Terri saying that Kaine was using steroids behind her back and she found this or that she knew and was having sort of the same reaction as last time, or she just learned once he was out of the home or what? Was she suggesting this to you like it had something to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: I got the impression she did not know, or at least did not know when the last time he was using them was, but it gets fuzzy for me there because it is my belief up until the time the RO was served, in my opinion she would have tried to protect Kaine from le finding out so I don’t know if she told le, but it would surprise me. Terri was always very family centric. She would protect her family unit, and that is why she did the turning in thing, this would seem the same to me until he made those murder for hire allegations.
Stoy: So did you get the impression from her that she thought that her allegation of Kaine’s steroid use had anything to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: No, not at all.
Stoy: Nothing like, maybe this happened as some sort of retribution against her for turning someone in previously or against Kaine if they thought he was involved because after all she says he was the one buying it back then?
Spicher: No, she told me she had no idea who was responsible for Kyron’s disappearance or why, and the only possibility she came up with after the fact because of his past behavior and the fact that he showed up at her door demanding $10,000 she had no idea what he was talking about, that it was the landscaper. He was the only person acting like a criminal at the time.
Stoy: Have you ever seen a text of hers involving the custody situation after the fact, after the Rudy Sanchez Estrada “sting” and she called police twice that day/evening that ended with “mark 1 for the FBI.”
Spicher: I may have, if I did I don’t remember it specifically.
Stoy: She specifically said the FBI, who has only ever assisted in this case, and who has no jurisdictional presence in Kyron’s case, I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on that.
Spicher: No, I don’t have any idea what she meant.
Is it possible that illegal steroid use or sales and the recent public outing there was an ongoing Federal Investigation with the emphasis on police and gym members that included persons familiar to the Horman’s contributed to the circumstances involving the disappearance of Kyron Horman?
Has it been excluded by having more law enforcement investigating themselves?
Roid Rumors and Boys In Blue.. Coincidence Or Clue?
It is no secret that Oregon has seen it’s share of corruption allegations in recent years. The very public and very disturbing account of it’s Governor Neil Goldschmidt’s involvement with a 14 year old girl earned Willamette Week’s Nigel Jaquiss a Pulitzer in 2005 for breaking the story a year earlier. As a strong argument for the trickle down effect, Goldschmidt’s former driver Bernie Giusto- who became the Multnomah County Sheriff following the debacle, was forced to resign his position when a State agency declared they would be removing his police certifications due to his lack of “moral fitness” outlined in the now infamous Giusto Report. A former Sheriff, Bob Skipper, was then appointed to take his place, but after two attempts could not pass the required certifications. The current Multnomah Sheriff Dan Staton, who has since won an election, was appointed in his place. Several current MCSO officers assigned to Kyron’s case were interviewed for the Giusto report.
In fact, Bobby O’Donnell was the lead investigator in Kyron’s case for the first 18 months who according to his own words in his interview was the unfortunate subject of an allegation involving his own very messy divorce.
MCSO Sgt Brett Ritchie stated in a police interview that O’Donnell was seen waving a gun and threatening his life [Ritchie] after he began dating O’Donnell’s ex wife. Laura O’Donnell was granted a restraining order against him that later became an agreement between the couple.
The lead investigator in the case of a missing child openly threatened a ranking officer and that incident was never investigated outside of Ritchie being told to stay away from O’Donnell. O’Donnell’s deposition and his motion to quash it are the subject of a hearing scheduled for Friday September 13, 2013.
There is no question the agency tasked with the investigation into the disappearance of Kyron Horman has had several and more recent embarrassing entanglements.
In another investigative piece by the Willamette Week, it exposes the egregious overtime paychecks that members of the prosecutors and investigators assigned to Kyron’s case have received during the early months following Kyron’s disappearance.
It is unclear how Multnomah County ever had jurisdiction in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance. According to the Skyline School’s filed safety and response plan, the Portland Police Bureau is the agency of record.
Multnomah County’s former woes might have paled a bit in comparison if only by the difference a year makes to public memory, to that of their fellow neighboring officers in Canby, located in Clackamas County.
After several investigations into the selling and possible use of anabolic steroids a Canby Police officer, which were repeatedly stalled due to his caption tipping other’s off in the alleged ring , Officer Jason Deason was arrested along with Canby Landscape Supply Owner William Traverso, Brian Casey Paul Jackson were arrested. The investigation was believed to be ongoing and Traverso, Deason and Jackson all cut deals for quick prison stints that shocked fellow officers and the public alike. The specifics of which were sealed by the court. It is now known that the Federal Bureau of Investigation continued to require the ongoing cooperation of it’s criminals turned informants to pursue federal indictments against possible targets in law enforcement and members of the bodybuilding set- to include acquaintances of Kaine and Terri Horman.
Presuming the confirmed allegations are true- is it possible that ‘a few years back’ Terri Horman unwittingly set off a state turned Federal investigation into the buying, using and selling of human growth hormone and anabolic steroids? How could this be connected, if it is, to the timing of Kyron’s disappearance even if she had?
“… Jackson, through a plea deal on state charges in 2009 where he admitted to selling anabolic steroids to Canby police officers in uniform, had been working with the FBI on an ongoing investigation when they confronted him with the knowledge that he was found deceptive on a polygraph designed to indicate if Jackson’s participation was far more extensive then he originally admitted to…”
“…Jackson, with his attorney, began cooperating with federal authorities shortly after his arrest. He identified his source for steroids as Vancouver resident Rainbow “Bo” Wild Keepers, 39, a competitive bodybuilder and photographer. Agents ran Keepers’ name in federal databases and discovered that an Arizona man had tipped off the Drug Enforcement Administration years ago that Keepers was his source of steroids. Keepers was never charged…”
On June 3rd, 2010, approximately 24 hours before Kyron Horman’s disappearance, Jackson was arrested on a Federal warrant following a sealed indictment issued the day before after failing a polygraph and refusing to help the FBI further.
From the Indictment:
Between June 2, 2005 and May 2008, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials B.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
It has since been revealed that the initials BW stand for Bradley Worden. Worden owns a few businesses, all relating to wholesale gym equipment or nutritional products. Worden has never been charged.
Between June 2006 and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials N.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
The identity of the person with initials NW is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and December 2007,: in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule illcontrolled substances, to a person with the initials G.P., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and
841(b)( 1)(E).
The identity of the person with the initials G.P is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule III controlled substances, to a person with the initials S.B., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and 84l(b)(1)(E).
The initials S.B. refer to Steve Beaudoin, a former work associate of Jackson’s and current Oregon State safety officer.
According to assistant U.S. Attorney Jane Shoemaker, Jackson sold Beaudoin at least 50 pills of the steroid Winstrol, an injectable steroid called Deca Durabolin, Sustanon and, in June 2007, 100 pills of Anavar on one to two occasions. Shoemaker also said Jackson sold Beaudoin $500 worth of human growth hormone. Investigators discovered the sales through witness interviews and Jackson’s computer records, Shoemaker said.
From Buff To Puff
In contrast to Jackson, although Traverso also sold to Deason and other members of law enforcement, William ‘Jake’ Traverso, a former competitive bodybuilder and “Mr. Oregon” cooperated extensively with the FBI by identifying other law enforcement officers he sold steroids to, and got a lenient sentence of 15 days in jail, 30 days home detention and 24 months probation, with no federal charges.
In a letter submitted to a Clackamas County judge Monday, FBI Special Agent Christopher Frazier said that Traverso has discussed his drug distribution activities in detail. “The public safety employees identified by Traverso included law enforcement officers, corrections officers, fire and rescue personnel and university public safety officers,” Frazier wrote, “Several spin-off FBI public corruption investigations were initiated as a result of these allegations, and are ongoing.”
Traverso, Deason and Jackson were cooperating with the Feds simultaneously, and in a very public way. Although Deason had been similarly employed by the Canby Police under Chief Greg Kroeplin, at least one of the raids on Traverso- Deason’s client, was by Deason’s Canby fellow officer James Murphy.
John Hingson, Traverso’s attorney and past commentator on the Horman case, sparred with then ADA Norm Frink as well. Hingson unearthed the report that included Murphy had been demoted following Deason’s arrest and his credibility was called into question. Murphy worked the graveyard shift with Deason. The report also revealed that both Deason and Officer James Murphy, who was one of the few to initiate an investigation into Deason’s steroid abuse, were put at risk when they were scheduled to work side by side as the only two officers on that shift.
“…Hingson obtained a 2009 report written by private detectives the City of Canby had hired to investigate the steroid scandal. Among their findings: Murphy had been demoted from detective to officer for alleged dishonesty…”
Chief GregKroeplin resigned prior to release of a scorching memo outlining the city’s findings they had outsourced properly to two retired Oregon detectives, which would have resulted in his termination.
Murphy, still employed by Canby Police, is apparently looking to renew the agencies stint for bad press.
On October 13, 2011, six months after former Willamette Week journalist James Pitkin featured his Lord of The Flies article outlining Murphy’s internal investigation led to his demotion for dishonestly, he arrested a freelance sports reporter while taking pictures of him exiting the Canby Police Headquarters on duty and entering his personal vehicle.
Andrew Millbrooke filed a Federal lawsuit in 2012 against The City of Canby, Officer James Murphy and his captain Bret Smith for excessive force and wrongful arrest which took place after Murphy used his cruiser to follow Millbrooke who was on foot. In a police report from another officer in the case, Millbrooke tells him he is a freelance journalist trying to expose corruption and drug use by Officer Murphy. The suit is pending. A review of the declarations by both Mr. Smith and Mr. Murphy do not include the details of the investigative report commissioned by The City Of Canby discussing Mr. Murphy’s prior demotion. Mr. Murphy also had a recent court decision regarding improper procedure [See Bonneau].
With pending motions to release the employment files of some Canby police officers to include Murphy, the charges against Traverso were dismissed this past May due the state delaying the case over 23 months.
Traverso, Deason and Jackson are all currently on probation. Traverso is awaiting trial on recent charges involving watermelon theft.
As the Federal Bureau of Investigation is listed as an investigative partner to MCSO in the Kyron Horman investigation, it is their policy not to release files where they are not the lead agency of record or during an ongoing criminal investigation .
Requests for comment from Kaine Horman through his attorney Brett Engel regarding the allegations that he has either purchased or sold illegal steroids have not been returned at the time of this publication.
However, in an article published to include a quote from Kaine Horman it seems that Kaine confirms Ms. Spicher’s assertion that Terri Horman did not use illegal steroids, but rather nutritional supplements and had moved past those very quickly after her bodybuilding competition.
“…Kaine said he noticed a sharp shift in her behavior, saying she became self-centered and short-tempered.
“She’s not eating a lot of food, she’s exercising twice a day, she’s up at 4 o’clock in the morning, she’s not sleeping at night so we get just general irritable behavior towards everyone around her,” he said.
He said she consumed over-the-counter stimulants, such as fat burners, in high doses. In four months between January and April, she shed 62 pounds, dropping from 185 to 123 pounds, he said.
At the end of April, with her muscles bulked up and skin glistening with a bronze tan, she competed in the Emerald Cup bodybuilding competition in Bellevue, Wash…”
S.Christina Stoy, Editor In Chief, www.blinkoncrime.com was able to independently confirm Ms. Spicher’s account of alleged steroid use and ensuing investigation of a gym member as told to her by Terri Horman.
The source, an associate of Terri Horman, DeDe Spicher and Kaine Horman who declined to be identified, went on to say that at the time it was “… really common knowledge who was using steroids and who was selling them…” “… was not aware previously that Terri Horman claimed to have instigated contact with law enforcement to turn in the seller…” The source declined to identify the seller and could not say for certain if he was charged and likely would not away- given the request not to disclose the source’s name on the record.
Reached for comment, Terri Moulton Horman Attorney Stephen Houze declined to comment based on his policy of not speaking publicly when a client has pending legal matters.
A request for comment to Mr. Bunch, Terri Horman’s divorce attorney has not been returned by the time of this publication.
More Questions Than Answers..
Following several hours of interviews with DeDe Spicher, the woman who was not a close friend to Terri Horman but ultimately was the closest to her in the early days of the investigation- are we left with more questions than answers about what could have happened to the little boy whose 11th birthday was 2 days ago?
Spicher concedes that anything she discussed as told to her by Terri Horman in some minor instances may only be verifiable by Horman herself- and she is not talking… Yet.
She also points out that ultimately everything she told me she shared with investigators as far as “truthfulness” was confirmed by a polygraph – to include the question “Was she withholding any information from investigators?”
She was not.
Although limited, Spicher’s accounts in many instances confirm sparse information heard early on from Terri herself. Not the least of which was that although widely criticized for not speaking out publicly, she was told by investigators not to under any circumstances- and when she broached the possibility of retaining counsel was told that she would then be cut off from any information as to the investigation process to find Kyron Horman.
Through Spicher, Horman also confirmed that out of concern for Horman’s “spacieness” which she defined by walking into a room and staring off, not remembering, etc, Terri Horman called his pediatrition Thursday June 3rd and made an appointment for Friday June 11th. His last day of school. Horman also told Spicher that Kyron had wondered off or got lost while in his teacher Ms. Porter’s care once before when following a fellow student out of class.
Initially, prior to learning Kyron had been marked absent not very long after she left the building, that was Horman’s first thought. Those hopes grew into panic with that revelation that he had been missing for hours.
Spicher says Terri was adamant that she never had a sexual relationship with the now infamous landscaper Rudy Sanchez Estrada Spicher agrees that her friend had the propensity to be flirtatious but she never knew her to be sexually promiscuous. Outside of the fact that she says at Kaine’s request to occasionally include an additional female in the bedroom, to which Spicher declined, she was not aware that the Horman’s had a swinger lifestyle.
To her knowledge, there were other women that were asked to participate in a threesome with the couple that did not say no some years ago, but had no current knowledge and she herself was never involved with Horman sexually.
In her take, the addition of a 3rd female was an expression of control on Kaine’s part in the relationship.
Terri explained the landscapers “sexual accosting” , previously reported exclusively by www.blinkoncrime this way:
“… She said she had Kitty on her hip and he came up behind her and was kissing her neck and put his arm around her and when she verbally resisted with concern that Kitty was in her arms he sort of grabbed her and she spun around and broke free…”
Spicher adds that on more than one occasion she tried to bring that up during meetings with DA Norm Frink and investigators. One one occasion, as suggested by her Father, a former Klamath County Marine Officer, at their own expense The Klamath County Sheriff and his first lieutenant had agreed to meet with Frink, Spicher and her father on DeDe’s behalf to sort of provide character backgrounds and family history he felt would be helpful in clearing her.
“… This came up in the first interview I had with Mr Frink and I told him she had made that call. Later in the interview when he was trying to push more of my buttons, he tells me that call never happened (implying Terri had lied to me). I told him okay, that’s what you’re telling me, but I recall it differently (implying he was lying to me right then). He got very angry about that and insisted it was “fact”. I said okay, whatever. Much later, like one of the last times I met with Mr Frink, the Klamath County Sheriff and his 1st Lieutenant flew up on their own dime to meet with Mr Frink & Keith Krafve to see if they could help by offering their opinion of my character, and that it didn’t seem unusual to them at all that I would go help Terri, that it is very consistent with how my family has always been. At that meeting, I retold the story of Rudy sexually accosting Terri (her words), but said I wasn’t sure about the 911 call. That totally infuriated Mr Frink. I told him I was trying to believe him and simply not certain about what I could remember on that point.
The DAs office behaved very strangely toward the Klamath Co Sheriff and his Lt. They tried everything they could to keep us separated and even insisted that they (the DAs office) drive them back to the airport, despite the fine fact that we (Dad & I) had picked them up and brought them in, and would definitely be seeing them again in the near future. It was just weird, to all of us…”
I asked DeDe if she used the term called 911 in every exchange. She had. I asked her if she got the impression that the reason Frink was so sure it never happened was because there was no 911 call on the record about it – could it be that maybe she reached out to that former law enforcement person she contacted on the steroid issue and it was actually a dispatch call versus a trackable 911 call issue.
Spicher says she got the impression that Frink was suggesting that the “accosting” as described by her friend did not happen, but could not be sure except to say that Frink seemed to become irate when she brought it up on every occasion. Spicher felt Sanchez Estrada was the only person behaving like a criminal and that supported the accounts she was given.
I asked DeDe if Terri mentioned ever paying Sanchez Estrada for work at the Horman home. She said she did not recall Terri ever saying anything other than she had no idea what he was talking about when he came to the door and asked for $10,000 so she slammed the door in his face and called 911.
Stoy: So did she think it was some sort of extortion attempt now that she had mentioned him to investigators and they told her that they had interviewed him?
Spicher: She thought that he was dangerous from her past experience.
Stoy: Did you think it was odd that with a brand new John Deere tractor parked outside that TH was hiring a landscaper? I was able to confirm through other sources that he cleared some blackberry or blueberry bushes similar to Ms. Von Klevelen, and the tractor does not have a UCC lien on it, meaning it was not financed.
Spicher: No, it wasn’t. Kaine bought it. It was Terri’s job to manage the inside of the house as well as the entire property. I knew that when Kaine would travel he would come up with this project lists for her to complete by the time he got home. I mean, like cleaning the gutters, cutting the grass, washing all the windows, that sort of thing. To the best of my recollection Terri and Kaine did not have bank accounts together- he controlled everything he made.
Stoy: With a baby, 7 year old and teenager and hubby out of town? How was she managing that? No wonder he was suggesting that she was pouring through money like water or something like that, she was probably hiring help. I am not even sure I think a woman by herself at that property with a baby should be on the roof by herself anyway.
Spicher: No, Terri had to pay any support money or whatever to the household expenses and I have surmised Kaine gave her some sort of allowance which she probably blew through pretty quickly on frivolous things like food and clothes for her children. I have never known Terri to be frivolous with money. I know of at least two times when the projects she was supposed to accomplish were impossible for her to manage. One was the windows so I believe she hired someone that time and as I recall her parents paid for that. I believe the other was the landscaper.
Stoy: Is it a fair question for me to ask how you feel about Kaine, from your tone I am sensing you are not a fan.
Spicher: I have tremendous compassion for Kaine- he lost his child- what can one even say about that? But no, he is not someone I would want to be friends with today and I was cordial to him whenever I was around him but he was very controlling and was pretty mean to Terri about her weight from Kitty, things like that- I am not going to have anything in common with that.
Stoy: Did Terri ever mention anything about conflicts with Desiree Young, whether they were between her and she or Kaine and Desiree?
Spicher: Not that I recall, but I also never heard her speak of Desiree negatively at any time previously or when I stayed with her [Terri].
Stoy: That is saying a lot because right after the sting Ms. Young was pretty accusatory pretty quickly- and I do note that was based on information from law enforcement. Similar to some of the things both she and Kaine said publicly about you. Are you angry about that?
Spicher: O my no. That poor woman is going through hell and acted on information that I was told, lie or not, was given to her and Kaine. I have nothing but compassion for her and I wish I could shoulder some of her pain because I can.. I have nothing but compassion for all of Kyron’s parents and any anger I have over how I was treated, what I went through would never be directed at them. I really pray that Kyron will be found, I choose to put my energy into hope for that.
Pending Matters
Through Attorney Bunch, Terri Horman makes the claim that both law enforcement and Kaine Horman have been perpetrating the dissemination of inaccurate information involving the circumstances of Kyron Horman’s disappearance.
In a recent filing, set for hearing this Friday, Bunch pens a scathing reply to Deputy O’Donnell’s motion to quash, and accuses the county of improper ex parte communication.
Early this afternoon, a source within the Multnomah County Courthouse speaking on the condition of anonymity has confirmed that on behalf of Multnomah County, a motion has been filed to limit certain documents or discoverable information related to Mr. Horman and Bobby O’Donnell of the MCSO.
A hearing is scheduled before Judge Kantor for this Friday September 13, 2013
Jacqueline Beaufort, Ellie Sanders – research and contributing editors to this article.
Jason Mateos- contributing editor, copy.
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My heart got warm.
Rose says:
December 8, 2013 at 12:06 am
snip>
@Malty….a sight for sore eyes.
I would say that document came from the DA’s office. There are about five teams scrimmaging now and I think it’s a double elimination marathon tournament.
@TRuth, I thought about that, too. I guess it would have been August 2009. Also makes me wonder if more than computers are carried in those bags.
July 4, 2010
snip>
Intel colleague and Horman family friend Michael G. Roten, was arrested last August on suspicion of menacing charges in Clackamas County the day after an Intel bag with a Sony computer, prescription Gucci glasses was taken from a vehicle on Country Club Rd. It is not known if the 2 incidents are related. Roten posted on Terri Horman’s facebook offering any help they could, a few days after Kyron’s disappearance was made public.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/07/04/kyron-horman-missing-and-endangered-sources-terri-horman-hired-landscape-lover/
@Amy’s Sis, You ask: Why would RSE lie? Two, off the top of my head; Involved in the actual disappearance, or cooperating with LE in exchange for special treatment wrt other crimes. Ask yourself this question; why would he wait to go to the police with the MFH info? Perhaps immediately after the MFH lunch, he was concerned about his INS status, but in May 2010, after her 911 call, why didn’t he just tell LE that crazy woman wants me to kill her husband. After June 4, did he find LE or did they find him? Funny thing, they never say the concerned landscaper came forward immediately upon hearing of the child’s disappearance.
T. Ruth says:
December 7, 2013 at 12:58 pm
___
T Ruth, poor word choice on my part. I meant Terri took Rudy to a restaurant to discuss a MFH months before Kyron went missing.
I’m also curious what Desiree meant when she said Kyron saw it all.
@erose. referencing “that document,” my Q is “what document?
Did the broadcast journalist imo most frequently channeling Kaine’s
messages to public since 2010 have RSE’s full depo, from which she
excerpted? Or did she have a responsive filing to the Motion to Show
Cause arguing against visitation which quoted some assertions ftom that depo?
My money’s on the latter.
Imo if so the depo quotes were selected with an eye to what Engel wanted made public.
And why the timed leak for the Sabbath nite when the Response would hit the public file
anyway? My guess is Engel was informed HofB would be going for a
protective order on the depo, so it was released while Kantor was at services.
No, Engel’s Camp put the Response to the Motion out, perfectly legal, while it still could
imo
Rose- So impressed by your stream of *present-ness* on this development.
I admit to being split today between work/family Holiday/Kids activities but can someone confirm for me that RSE depo is recent, and that is the referenced material supported by Affidavit? So some deposition occurs after the attempted preserved depo melee?
Again I say, this vague-plague would never hold in my jurisdiction, or others I am familiar with.
B
Hope everyone rereads this. Excellent point, why the disparity.
Rose says:
December 7, 2013 at 12:45 pm
Here’s what I don’t understand about Judge Kantor and the DA.
Allow Kaine to depose the lynchpin of the mfh criminal charge-in-waiting as to
the content of his evidence, where he is the sole source of mfh evidence (and leakage was
inevitable), yet preclude in Terri’s depos Houze asking the mere fact of whether
Matthews had spoken to LE at all–not even the content or substance.
Why this disparity wrt DA & Judge “protecting the investigation?”
I was curious about the KATU reporter Anna Canzano and found this:
–Snipped–
Anna has been recognized as one of the best broadcast journalists in the region.
Her list of awards includes:
Emmy Award – Crime Reporting 2012
Investigative Reporting Award – Oregon Association of Broadcasters 2012
Hard News Coverage 1st place – Oregon Associated Press 2010
Hard News Coverage 1st place – Oregon Associated Press 2009
Hard News Coverage 1st place – Oregon Associated Press 2008
Emmy Award – Human Interest News Series 2008
14-time Emmy Award nominee (1999-present)
Investigative Reporting – Edward R. Murrow regional award 2007
News Writing 1st place – Oregon Associated Press 2007
Investigative Reporting 1st place — Oregon Associated Press 2006
Feature Series 1st place — Oregon Associated Press 2006
News Writing 1st place – Oregon Associated Press 2006
News Writing 1st place – Oregon Associated Press 2005
Continuing Coverage – Edward R. Murrow regional award 2003
Feature Writing 1st place – Oregon Associated Press 2002
http://www.katu.com/about/people/reporters/157258475.html
I thought the depo of RSE had been taken prior to the perpetuity argument.
I am not clear as I would like at what “civil deposition” RSE participated in and Engel/Rackner was trying to convert to Rosetta Stone.
Is everyone clear that this allegation does not rise to the criminal statute in the first place? The ineptness of this shitshow by LE is beyond my comprehension and that is saying a lot. The DA is running at a close second and the only pass they get is they were handed the mess.
B
That would surely account for why the document is not being shown in it’s entirety.
Rose says:
December 8, 2013 at 1:05 am
No, Engel’s Camp put the Response to the Motion out, perfectly legal, while it still could
imo
Rose says:
December 8, 2013 at 1:05 am
@erose. referencing “that document,” my Q is “what document?
Did the broadcast journalist imo most frequently channeling Kaine’s
messages to public since 2010 have RSE’s full depo, from which she
excerpted? Or did she have a responsive filing to the Motion to Show
Cause arguing against visitation which quoted some assertions ftom that depo?
My money’s on the latter.
———————————
@Rose – I couldn’t state it as well as you have, but it’s what I have been wondering too. If she had a full depo, why use only what she put in that article? Surely there would have been much more to choose from. All I could think of was (1) she only had those excerpts, (2) she had it all but was told by someone what to use, (3) she wants to make a series out of whatever she has . . .
@1:03 on video “Response to Order to Show Cause”
Rose and Blink nailed it.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=544553328967926&set=vb.161645780592018&type=2&theater
Anna (Song) Canzano was on holiday end of July 2010, she would have reported on Kyron Horman as Anna Song, in those first months.
Reported Aug 4, 2010
Media consolidation: Oregonian sports columnist/95.5-FM the Game radio afternoon host John Canzano and KATU weekend anchor Anna Song got married last week in Hawaii. The couple got hitched in Kauai on Poipu Beach in front of 32 family and friends. “Bride was gorgeous and made me weak in the knees when she came walking up,” reports Canzano. The “Bald-Faced Truth” also reports that guests wore sunscreen. The honeymoon is later this year.
http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12300-more_engaged_than_bristol_and_levi.html
Self correction. So when was this depo?
PORTLAND — The landscaper who police believe Terri Horman approached in an alleged murder-for-hire plot against her estranged husband Kaine Horman was scheduled for a deposition Wednesday. But the interview was later canceled.
Terri Horman’s defense lawyer objected to the deposition and requested an emergency hearing to prevent Rudy Sanchez-Estrada from being questioned. No court hearing has been scheduled to discuss the matter.
According to court papers obtained by KGW, Kaine’s lawyers wanted to question Sanchez-Estrada as part of the ongoing divorce proceedings with Terri Moulton Horman.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Witness-questioned-in-alleged-Horman-murder-plot-228050491.html
Oct 17, the RSE interview was cancelled, by Nov 8 RSE was on the record.
Kaine Horman’s lawyers were seeking to preserve the deposition of the landscaper, who told authorities that Terri Horman had offered him money to kill her husband in 2010. They wanted to convert the civil deposition of the landscaper, Rudolfo Sanchez-Estrada, into what’s called a “perpetuation deposition.” That would mean the questions and answers would be preserved in writing, with audio and video recorded, and could be presented at a trial at a later time.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/11/judge_to_hear_more_arguments_i.html
Anna has always seemed to me to be is more of a TV personality that reads the news from a tele prompter As far as Kyrons investigation goes Anna has been a team player. I have never heard her ask even one hard to answer investigative question to Kaine Desiree any LE interviewed etc….
i heard(read) Anna goes to coffee with Kaine so maybe this leak started with him. The purpose could be to keep baby-k away from her mother for another year OR maybe Kaine is tired of having to keep information LE gave him about the MFH a big secret. Put it out there and let the feathers fly See who is telling the truth.
Either way i’ll bet that the DA, LE Judge … are not happy with Anna at this point.
I doubt they fault Anna- while it was exploitive- and btw- WHAT JOURNALIST DOES NOT SEEK A COMMENT FROM WHOM THEY ALLEGE TO QUOTE??
That a serious ethical issue and one that would put my board on my ass for sure.
B
Amys Sister says:
December 8, 2013 at 1:02 am
T. Ruth says:
December 7, 2013 at 12:58 pm
___
T Ruth, poor word choice on my part. I meant Terri took Rudy to a restaurant to discuss a MFH months before Kyron went missing.
—————
As far as Kyrons case goes this is just more he said / she said only now we know what he said. If this confirmed that TH tried to hire Rudy to off Kaine the Th would already be in jail. I believe it will be not be of any legal value in visitation hearings per TH.
snipped:
“I do not claim to be the grammar queen, but check out that writing- bad content was just the start. Wow.”
B
As I posted on Canzano’s FB page…”a NON story by a NON journalist”
Hi Panda. Saw those many awards. And fair play to be sure they’re posted. I don’t mean to be negative, but Felt they must be easy to earn from their Oregon sources. What’s the competition? Kyle & WW. I fail to see anything in the Kyron stories but a cozy relationship with a bio & a lack of critical eval of his statements. So much so that early on I took the time to check that she is happily married.
erose says:
December 8, 2013 at 1:16 am
Hope everyone rereads this. Excellent point, why the disparity.
Rose says:
December 7, 2013 at 12:45 pm
Here’s what I don’t understand about Judge Kantor and the DA.
Allow Kaine to depose the lynchpin of the mfh criminal charge-in-waiting as to
the content of his evidence, where he is the sole source of mfh evidence (and leakage was
inevitable), yet preclude in Terri’s depos Houze asking the mere fact of whether
Matthews had spoken to LE at all–not even the content or substance.
Why this disparity wrt DA & Judge “protecting the investigation?”
—————————————————————
A couple guesses.
1. Because there are 2 investigations, Kyron and the MFH, and LE and DA are trying quite a bit harder to protect just one of them?
2. They aren’t trying to protect the investigation at all. They are simply stubbornly and determinedly trying to convict TMH of a crime via Divorce Court.
@erose. Here’s a Q. His yard work on Horman property apparently began, and ended in 2008 (was that the PPD/birth time of her history?) with the blackberry bush pulling. and why did they still have contact 2 years later in May 2010 such that he was threatening & she called 911? was he trying to blackmail her even then? maybe over sexual antics whilst in PPD? or her “divorce prevention” chatter? If so, he failed, and did not disclose that failure to LE before the sting.
On the other hand, it is well-documented Terri “pointed” LE to RSE & told them he was a possible. Immo that very much tends to exhonerate her. Why would she send LE to someone she’d articulated death hopes on her husband to?
If you can believe this, and I will allow you not to, lol, as I will not reveal this source but I absolutely believe it to be true..
It was during a conversation with LE where they asked to mention all folks who had access to the property, some examples were given such as a “gardener”. Both she and Kaine said they do not use a gardener, nor have they ever.
It was not until the term landscaper came up, and TMH chimed in that she had used RSE to clear the blackberry bushes and told the story.
The issue was over an interpretable term. Personally, I think that hire date is wrong but I would have to check my files on the date of the picture she posted about it, I am pretty positive it is 2009.
I swear to Christ if the allegation becomes she had lunch at the Mexican place owned by the dude with the same name as RS or RSE that we all knew about in 1o minutes I am going to hurl things at things.
B
Wasn’t the Horman home valued at about $180,000? Iirc it wasn’t an upper middle class property, just an aging middle of road. It doesn’t fit to me to pay $10,000 cash for a Deere for it, by a man who at the time didn’t do hardwork. Are you sure about that cash expenditure, Blink? He could pay $600 a summer for yardwork & spend half that in a decade.
I am sure that equipment was paid for in full without incurring a lien of any kind, yes. I cannot say if it was a cash deal v a check, and I don’t know the verified amount.
B
You know, I am very tired of the press focusing on stories solely about (and mostly sourced by)
the 3 adults in Kyron’s life, the least dysfunctional of whom, by now, appears to be Terri.
I wish an investigative reporter would go back to the crime scene, & investigate the abduction.
Unfortunately Rose there is nobody willing to talk publicly to do that- or I would have done it. I have had several offers of sponsorship to do just that. Nobody is willing to provide any access, all citing the “ongoing investigation” and various pending litigations.
B
@Blink. I’m not sure if you want to post this up or not – But i wanted to draw your attention to it.
Is that Kiara in one of the pics half way down? Is this not illegal?
https://www.facebook.com/GoodByeKittyHaveAGoodLife
best regards, albaLass.
There is some effed up people in this world and if they think anyone thinks this is funny or appropriate they need an evaluation
B
@erose: They didn’t say much about the landscaper at all. He probably wanted to lay low as long as possible and very well may have been contacted by LE instead of him coming to them. I don’t doubt the investigation on all fronts so I go with simple, ie… LE vetted him every way possible and found him to be believable. They could be wrong, they could by telling lies, no way of knowing for sure.
The MFH information is brought into the civil case because it was used as a reason to keep Baby K away from Terri. Easter Matthews interview with LE has nothing to do with the divorce or visitation so to me there is no question why one and not the other.
If Terri/Houze later want to sue for defamation then who saw Kyron last becomes pertinent and so would EM statement. As it stands, IMO, Kantor was right not to allow it at this point.
What is interesting is that Kaine (assuming the newly released information is from his response) may be the one pressing that issue via repeating that Terri was the last one to see Kyron in the school that morning. Would it help or harm him if LE had to be deposed?
At this point, help him, absolutely. He just prepared a response following his own deposition where he openly admitted all his information came from conversations with LE, and Kantor said in open court if he quotes LE, than LE “comes into play.”
I could be wrong, but I fervently believe Kaine knows there is no getting around him having to justify his initial and subsequent legal pleadings which CLEARLY do not even meet the legal standard to be a charge. If I am evaluating him , I have 2 options as I am WEIGHING the best interests of the child.
1. Does his reaction to that “story” seem a reasonable parental reaction and did he take any steps for Baby K’s sake to independently verify the allegation. (ie: ask for proof)
2. Was the response and subsequent voluntary alienation due to a pre-existing issue in the home and/or fear of a custody outcome.
Kaine has got to present he absolutely believed this to have happened and that he did proper diligence before unilaterally making the decision to separate this baby from her Mother and if this is all there is, I have my doubts that anyone reading it feels that a reasonable person would respond similarly without being coached to. He was. He wants those that put him in this position now to be held accountable without looking like a dolt himself, and being held responsible for repeating information he was told directly. He cant have it both ways- not about him and honestly not about Kyron at this point.
B
i am anxious to read the actual document we are discussing. Does it quote RSE’s words from his deposition or is it a summary? We know that RSE was subpoenaed to be deposed, then RE (racker engel) wanted to change it to perpetual kind, Houze protested that protocol for notice wasn’t followed and requested an emergency hearing about it. No further mention of perpetuity. Since RSE was originally scheduled for depo, can we assume this was re-scheduled and carried out? Was Houze also allowed to depo RSE, even though he was denied this earlier in the case. Or did this kangaroo court allow RE to depose him but not Houze (to protect the investigation) continuing the fantasy that K, as confidant of le, has special privileges.
What exactly is the deal about when court documents can be revealed to the public? I thought there was some thing that specified documents were not to be published until they are actually in the public file. Am I misunderstanding this?
Many people have brought up the problems with RSE claims. can’t help but wonder how RSE knew that T had been contemplating divorcing K for “many months”, back in 2009. Baby K would be pretty young then, suggesting that many months would have extended back to her birth or before. Then all this time passes AFTER that “many months” and still no divorce. Had there been a normal divorce I do not know why T wouldn’t have gotten custody of baby, so killing K was not necessary, nor was killing Kyron out of frustration or pique or something.
but back to RSE. I have had mexican yard workers in my yard many times. Extremely hard workers, reliable, know there stuff. not easy to converse with. some have great english, many don’t, but all can be difficult to understand because of accent. In my case I hire them through a company. I know nothing about their background other than yard work. I don’t need to know. T is not stupid. If she wanted to get rid of K in this manner, would she choose to ask a person with whom she could not easily converse because of accent and language, had no way of knowing his skills in this specialized area? As for payment, according to this account, T did not promise to pay him directly, she said K always carried $10,000, implying that this would be his payment. To me this doesn’t quite match K’s early statement that SHE offered to pay “landscaper” a large amount of money, nor does it match his fillip statement that she offered him “collateral”. If this new statement was true, RSE would be paid by robbing his victim. It also contradicts the sting where RSE demanded $10,000 to keep quiet. If T had had $10,000 she would have offered to pay RSE in the first place, not expected him to rob K for it.
as for meeting in a restaurant, why on earth meet in a public place when T lived in a very secluded home where they could talk without being seen together. He had done yard work there so there would be nothing unusual about him going to her home.
Thinking through this more, how do we know the deposition of RSE which is referred to in this story didn’t come from the now stayed, civil proceeding?
Do we know if RSE was ever deposed in that case? If so, maybe Desiree/Rosenthal is behind the leaking of this information, because as noted, it doesn’t put Kaine in a good light. This would make more sense to me.
?????
That is my inference from earlier as a possibility but then it would not be admissible here.
B
I have not read this yet. It looks interesting. I stumbled on it in my first “hit” thinking back to how “best interests of the child” became coined popularly in my traing era of the 1970s, & was a catch phrase enacted by State legislators in the divorce arena in that decade, but it seems to have been applied mechanistically by lower tier circuit court judges to the exclusion of societal knowledge about child developmental & child psychological needs, Kantor being a case in point. To have a subjective standard codified by legislators leaves Judges bulletproof wrt divorce outcomes for children. A negative byproduct of a mechanistic & reductive standard. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3699111?uid=3739704&uid=2460338175&uid=2460337855&uid=2&uid=4&uid=83&uid=63&uid=3739256&sid=21103087947557—
PS I was motivated to look back to see how child custody decisions had been impacted by the B-I-Child catch phrase since my training era because I briefly read 5-6 recent posts on a “sleuths” site, a rareity for me, and I saw a “family law” practitioner apply that standard as she knew it. In my opinion the application was a perverted interp of the whole child. Then I thought, maybe it has come to this for all Judges who simply follow the legislature. I also noticed posters with numerous factual errors & gave thanks for a moderator here who replies to individual posts to correct factual or analytical plain error.
CD says: As far as Kyrons case goes this is just more he said / she said only now we know what he said. If this confirmed that TH tried to hire Rudy to off Kaine the Th would already be in jail. I believe it will be not be of any legal value in visitation hearings per TH.
____
I so agree, CD. Much of what we know (or have been told) is hearsay. I posted a day or two ago some facts not subject to hearsay because the he said/she said was muddying the waters and distracting us from Kyron.
There are clear legal rules about arresting someone for MFH and this case falls outside those rules so no arrest for that will ever be made especially if finding Kyron is the endgame.
I wait to see how much value is placed on RSE testimony. I think about real life. If I had a witness in a divorce/custody hearing tell the judge my husband tried to hire him to kill me I do think it would hold value but only if coupled with further facts and evidence. If my witness was proven a liar obviously his statement would be out he window.
Do you think RSE lied?
The evaluator has a big job on his hands. I sure hope he’s astute and thorough. His opinion more than anyone thus far will affect the lives of the family and shape the public outlook.
Unless he keeps the evaluation shallow for sake of ease (or Terri’s refusal to take tests and answer questions) and thus only allows long term supervised visits until such and such steps are taken.
Hopefully it’s the former.
@ Blink, IMO if Kaine is forcing LE hand it changes everything… his relationship with them, release of information, Desiree’s perspective, Judge Kantor decisions, etc…
I do think he can show he actually feared for his life and believed the MFH story to be true. He left his home and all his belongings behind to protect himself and Kiara.
I think he trusted LE for years, they made him feel important, like one of them, sharing information, etc…
Desiree is the one who did not fully trust MCSO. She says she did but her actions spoke differently, IMO.
Amy’s Sis, I believe everything you said about kaine. I disagree that DY did not trust MCSO. Her comments throughout and especially on Dr. Filkenstein are proof of that. According to her she directed her publicly funded lawsuit to be withdrawn because she wanted to protect the investigation.
B
wrt ” I fervently believe Kaine knows there is no getting around him having to justify his initial and subsequent legal pleadings” That would be true in the normal Family Court. I fear it is not true with H v H handpicked Judges. All Kantor needs is a whisper or untested accusation to hang his hat on, and he has it in Engel’s briefz I watched the video, and while it’s impossible to read the text, the brief’s bulleted points appear to be summarized quotes from a depo.
At Amy’s, any thoughts on why Kantor/DA allowed Engel to depose RSE but did not allow Bunch to depose RSE if his content was relevant to visitation & the RO grounds? Bunch had shown with Kaine & Matthews he complied with Judge’s scope expectations. You see, pretrial depos are usually taken by the adverse party’s lawyer to elicit truthful facts, and in this case that would be Bunch while RSE is on the same evidentiary arguments side, if not vital, to Engel.
Hello all Have been content to remain silent as I read all of your thoughts but must interject with the latest article- sorry for the length in advance- appologies for being a Bhog
as always just offering a differing perspective-
RE:
vw says:
December 7, 2013 at 4:36 am
Blink,
Just read up on Katu and left a comment for Anna.
There were no court docs “filed” regarding this depo.
Sorry, Anna. Better check your sources better.
Kaine carries 10 grand on him at all times? And a computer.
Rofl. Better luck next time.
Hope Kaine isn’t starting to draw women from the gym that want a ride
home with that stacked back pocket.
Kaine would know if he carried 10Gs around, right?
So if that is part of the lie, why would he buy in?
B
—-
there being no link to the depo- I can see why we would question the source but IF the article was based on an actual depo of landscaper then why would we rofl about the allegation that TERRI told landscaper/alleged possible MFman that kaine had laptop and 10thousand with him at all times???
The alleged quotes are contained in the response motion without the deposition or an affidavit by RSE as an exhibit that I saw. If once it is in the file it still does not have that, it does not even meet the minimum good faith requirements by a sworn officer of the court and Oregon Bar Member to have been filed.
Why would Kaine disregard the potential threat based on his knowledge that the 10 grand was a lie? Couldnt the plot be true with Terri having lied to MFHLS to get him to go thru with the plot with no intention of ever paying out 10 grand?
Mom3.0- Kaine NEVER KNEW they ever had a landscaper. Those are his words, which changed in year 2. So Le recounts this lunch, which btw, does not include any dates, locations, proof or other.
I wish to be clear on this- I DO NOT believe that this is what LE told Kaine in the least. I believe he is precluded from doing that, and that is why Engel staged this. If it was, let me say on the record that if that is all it takes to convince a person to sign off on that concept and feel ok about ripping this child from her Mother I have serious questions as to the respect of the Mother and child relationship by Kaine that has a track record years long.
If it was not, as it relates to the weight given to the “estrangement” which is at the heart of Engel’s position, past and present, then it behooves Kaine to have the court believe he was duped. I think in the immediate he was. For a while, but I think it was because this situation was headed South before Ky went missing, he feared detection on the steroids issue and HE WAS VULNERABLE as assessed by the Barge Brigade. ( I want to apologize for my snark but I cannot today, I am still catching flies in my pie hole on this. Nothing like confirmation of what you have been yelling all along transforms my distended jaw.)
Point being IF TERRI did make such claims to this man to “get rid” of her husband and make it look like a mugging …why would we automatically jump to the conclusion that the man who was depoed was lying and NOT the wife of said husband to be killed?
IF true what landscaper claims …if terri did want to hire him to get rid of kaine and did tell him- his payment would be the computer and 10 grand found in the “mugging” then if he had decided to do it- the only point he would know the 10 grand was a lie- would have only been AFTER MHLS had committed the crimes…mugging, theft, killing or attempted killing …
It would simply be his loss that the 10 thousand was not in the briefcase on that particular day.
Wife could have always planned to claim then that was new info and not to her knowledge and that she would get his money later…. and ofcourse later would never come, as Landscaper murderer would not chance the risk of coming to bereaved wife to ask for payment as that would likely put him on LEs watchlist as seemingly he would have committed the crime of murder and of theft of said computer- and IF he did chance it for payment wife could have always planned that when LS arrived she would call LE and claim innocence
perhaps this is the answer to the failed sting and the demanding of the ten thousand on the doorstep…and the earlier report of kaines laptap being stolen IIRC…
LE wanted terri to think MHLS either thought better of the “arrangement” and wanted the money upfront- or LE wanted to make it seem as if MFH plot went thru, and MFHLS came to claim the “missing” money??
Either way, it still comes down to “he said she said” like most MFHP very hard to prove…especially if the one who did the hiring thought out the plot and what would be the best way to proceed in any event that would have the hired murderer show up for payment- deny deny and call LE and play the role you prescribed to yourself if ever the day arrived.
No I am not saying that I believe the plot was definitely true and landscaper is truthful and terri is a lying potential murderess…
Just pointing out Kaines possible thought process as well as LE…
it does seem unlikely but at the time especially for kaine who was sitting with LE just after his sone was missing it probably seemed too scary to reason anything other than must protect self and Kiara…
Im waiting to read actual docs/depo
AJMO Peace
Since these allegations were in a responsive brief, they would become public anyway, so why the 11 pm Friday leak?
options:
1 Jose Baez 101? imo least likely, Engel not that sharp imo.
2. A joint expectation between Engel & DA
(we know they ride elevator together & chat after Court)
Engel will leak investigation material, allowing delay of custody hearing
and/or topic intervention by DA? most likely imo
3) Engel was aware Bunch was going to seek a protective order wrt to depo
contents & wanted to get it out there while he could?
4) the depo was not from this litigation but DY’s & Bunch would
challenge its admissibility?
5) KH is a smuck, and missed coffee with Anna?
So, do we think the sting request for the amount of $10,000 was a random number or was for some reason inspired by the amount of $10,000 Terri supposedly told RSE that Kaine carried on his person in 2008? Or do we think the $10,000 from the sting request “inspired” the amount of $10,000 later mentioned in the depo?
Abbott and Costello come to mind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7pMYHn-1yA
erose says:
December 8, 2013 at 1:00 am
@Amy’s Sis, You ask: Why would RSE lie? Two, off the top of my head; Involved in the actual disappearance, or cooperating with LE in exchange for special treatment wrt other crimes. Ask yourself this question; why would he wait to go to the police with the MFH info? Perhaps immediately after the MFH lunch, he was concerned about his INS status, but in May 2010, after her 911 call, why didn’t he just tell LE that crazy woman wants me to kill her husband. After June 4, did he find LE or did they find him? Funny thing, they never say the concerned landscaper came forward immediately upon hearing of the child’s disappearance.
—-erose i agree RSE could be lying and you gave two very good possibilities as to why i am sure there are others…
But if his allegations are true- there are just as compelling reasons as to why he wouldnt come forward with the “truth” of the MFP- and your thoughts could work both ways…
First, who wants to implicate a mom in having something to do with murder when she and her husband, who seem to have worked things out- have just lost their son to an abduction (presumably)
If RSE did have a record and would lie to get special treatment then why would he come forward at all to implicate himself in anyway to the disappearance of Kyron and to a MFHP?
It is and has always been his word against hers…why would a seemingly bad guy who had terri call LE on him for “accosting her”
why would he chance coming out of the blue to point fingers at terri for anything- as clearly LE already had believed her….right?
especially when you have no proof- since you never went thru w/ the plot…
IDK just a different way of looking at things
You asked:
After June 4, did he find LE or did they find him? Funny thing, they never say the concerned landscaper came forward immediately upon hearing of the child’s disappearance.
Good question
IDK who found who- but it seems LE were looking into anyone who had access to the home/grounds/family- and if he didnt come forward and terri didnt come forward, and Kaine never knew of him,
LE could have found him thru the 9111 incident report
AJMO Peace
@ Rose, it’s hard to answer that without knowing where the RSE statements came from. In Kaine’s response those statements could have been prefaced by “LE shared with me…” or it could be from information garnered during the civil suit. Potentially, as you state, Kaine’s attorney’s could have deposed him.
I think either side can depose anyone they want but I could be wrong.
Terri’s attorneys are going to fight on the grounds that Kiara was kept from her for no valid reason. Kantor has to allow Kaine to present there was, in fact, a valid reason.
Do we know if Matthews was not been deposed by Houze? I thought Kantor stated school staff could be?
Would Desiree have even brought the suit if she trusted the investigation? Or searched areas that had already been searched, even requesting to search the Horman property?
I sensed doubt and frustration with the investigation on her part starting early 2011 till present. It seemed like she was being patient through December 2010 and I believe David Durham had something to do with that, like she knew LE was investigating him. Then when he disappeared it seemed to me she began to lose patience and maybe question how it all was going down.
Honestly, I think she’s suspicious of everyone from the Portland area who is involved (MCSO, DA, Skyline, Kaine, etc…) and I can’t say that I blame her. JMO.
Rose says:…the 3 adults in Kyron’s life, the least dysfunctional of whom, by now, appears to be Terri.
____
That made me laugh.
Come on, and I say this with respect, Terri is hiring landscapers behind her husbands back so he thinks she’s doing yard work she’s not doing then she complains to everyone how she’s being forced to do yard work.
That takes a very special person as does much of her behavior.
I agree the bios are acting out but they do have a missing child and carry a heavy load of guilt over it.
LOL, Rose. I actually love how you’re able to outline fifteen facts with three opinions in twenty words or less.
I don’t believe Kaine’s relationship with LE or the DA will change at all. This was a collusive plan imo between Rees & Engel, for the aftermath you will see. The info came from RSE, not LE. And, Kantor can’t allow Bunch to examine & test him in Court as “he is part of the investigation.” A safe ploy. But it puts Kantor on the public hot seat wrt granting visitation. We shall see if he has Ba..s.
First Id like to comment Re Roses post then next to Blinks response to roses post
TIA-
RERose says:
December 8, 2013 at 9:15 am
Rose you wrote in part:
@erose. Here’s a Q. His yard work on Horman property apparently began, and ended in 2008 (was that the PPD/birth time of her history?) with the blackberry bush pulling.
—Good questions Rose- this also could be the point in time Terri was speaking to De De regarding Kaines “juicing” and abusive behaviors toward the children and herself..
Blinks above article
Blink On Crime Exclusive: DeDe Spicher speaks for the first time about her ordeal in the Kyron Horman investigation- continued
http://blinkoncrime.com/2013/09/11/blink-on-crime-kyron-horman-investigation-exclusive-dede-spicher-interview-yields-allegations-of-illegal-steroid-use-terri-horman-took-to-police
snipped:
Spicher: Yes, she was not getting it and so I was kind of 50% paying attention. It was either during that call or at the lunch. Other than that, I am not remembering the timing so well.
Stoy: But you would say a few years before Kyron went missing so based on that 2007 or 2008? Do you remember if they were married at the time?
Spicher: Again, we were friends for a good number of years but not close friends, I almost felt like if she was calling me or talking to me about it she had no other option at the time.
Stoy: Got it. What did she say
Spicher: She said that Kaine had been aggressive with her and impatient with the children and she attributed that to his “juicing”. She confronted him and she felt he did not listen to her. She told me that she then called a detective and turned in Kaine’s seller.
end snip-
and why did they still have contact 2 years later in May 2010 such that he was threatening & she called 911? was he trying to blackmail her even then? maybe over sexual antics whilst in PPD? or her “divorce prevention” chatter? If so, he failed, and did not disclose that failure to LE before the sting.
—-good questions Rose and I dont have the answers –
You wrote:
On the other hand, it is well-documented Terri “pointed” LE to RSE & told them he was a possible. Immo that very much tends to exhonerate her. Why would she send LE to someone she’d articulated death hopes on her husband to?
— Rose are you referring to De Des remembrances of what Terri told her in the past- as that being “well documented”? because IIRC we do not know if terri ever came forward herself to point fingers at RSE being a possible…or whether this pointing only took place after LE got a hold of the 911 incident report and then LE brought the name and incident up to Terri and Kaine thereby outing the hiring of a landscaper and the “accosting” two things which Kaine was unaware of…
I see your point but again IIRC there is no official documentation TMK that Terri ever sent LE to RSE…. again I understand it in your mind tending to exonerate her, but IF the MFHP is true, then again it goes back to “she said he said” and if she is capable of planning that… then and only then it would be feasible that the whole 911 call could have been a set-up….
really who is going to be more believable a person who accosted her, or a person who claims to have done nothing wrong and was only acting to protect herself and her child?
I mean who is so scared that they call 911 but doesnt
ever mention the incident which involved your child or the landscaping to the husband and father?
RE Blinks response:
IDK you can believe this, and I will allow you not to, lol, as I will not reveal this source but I absolutely believe it to be true..
It was during a conversation with LE where they asked to mention all folks who had access to the property, some examples were given such as a “gardener”. Both she and Kaine said they do not use a gardener, nor have they ever.
It was not until the term landscaper came up, and TMH chimed in that she had used RSE to clear the blackberry bushes and told the story.
The issue was over an interpretable term
Personally, I think that hire date is wrong but I would have to check my files on the date of the picture she posted about it, I am pretty positive it is 2009.
I swear to Christ if the allegation becomes she had lunch at the Mexican place owned by the dude with the same name as RS or RSE that we all knew about in 1o minutes I am going to hurl things at things.
B
—-
Blink, not asking you to name your source – are we positive that Terri sent LE toward RSE and they didnt already get the info from the 911 report as that would have been one of the firsts on their list to search for and gain any 911 calls to the home right?
I appreciate your sources and I do not doubt this is what they know or heard…but they would have heard of this third hand…. unless they are LE or were in the room which they could have been IDK…
regardless it just doesnt ring true that Terri didnt recall *until*…
if my child was missing and LE were sitting down with my husband and I to go over everyone and anyone that had access to my property and my children and myself ….
I wouldnt need prompting with the specific term “landscaper” to recall the man I had hired to work in my yard in a sort of gardening capacity… yard work…blackberry puller…
and I certainly would not need to search my mind and wait for the buzz word of “landscaper” to recall or supply LE with the name of the man I had hired and who had accosted me with my child in my arms and to whom I had to call LE about, for protection and removal of said “landscaper” from the property – the property to which LE are sitting with me to try to gain a workable list of anyone and anyone who had access and raised some red flags…. no I wouldnt here “gardener” and NOT think OMG- RSE the landscaper accoster…
and if she was remaining silent because she didnt want to alert Kaine to her lie of doing the work… and to her P flirting or to the accosting w/Kiara then I say no way
we have a missing little boy her son which she rasied as her own… she has a baby daughter who RSE the landscaper had no problems in P putting in harms way to accost her….. so I would not care if my husband thought I was a bigger flirt than Mae West I would be more worried that this man would next target Kitty as – everyone in the room knows why we are trying to get a potential list of Possibles possible people who had access who might harm …who might want to get back at…
Thanks for the laugh please dont hurl things at things harper might think you want her to fetch…
getting ready to duck lol
AJMO
Peace
Le and the prosecutors office flatly refute that TMH made a call to 911 following a confrontation with RSE. As I opined previously, TMH likely called LE directly, or the detective she knew from her previous input regarding the steroid info. That said, LE is under no obligation to tell the truth about what investigative info they have at this juncture.
I don’t think Houze would be FOIA 911 calls from the Horman home if he did not already know what was in them.
B
@ CD and Blink said
CD, snipped: “i heard(read) Anna goes to coffee with Kaine so maybe this leak started with him. The purpose could be to keep baby-k away from her mother for another year OR maybe Kaine is tired of having to keep information LE gave him about the MFH a big secret. Put it out there and let the feathers fly See who is telling the truth.
Either way i’ll bet that the DA, LE Judge … are not happy with Anna at this point.
Blink Said: I doubt they fault Anna- while it was exploitive- and btw- WHAT JOURNALIST DOES NOT SEEK A COMMENT FROM WHOM THEY ALLEGE TO QUOTE??
That a serious ethical issue and one that would put my board on my ass for sure.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
@CD…. I agree with you contention that Anna and Kaine are very close in the sense they joint players. (Anna seriously believes personally that Kaine’s divorce is a means to get TMH to reveal the acts, etc that lead to Kyron being gone and therefore a horrible wrong is righted….according to her responses to comments on twitter, her stories, etc)
But I don’t know about the intent to keep Kiara away for another year. And I am sure the reason for this “leak” was not because Kaine was tired of keeping LE secrets a secret.
I personally don’t this this “leak” benefits Kaine. Engels is a DA agent. Rees is advising him at every turn. He cannot (Rees) get out of that court even when told to. His presence is everywhere. He is the one who is pulling the strings.
Why? Defending 3 million in overtime including thousands and thousands to the DA’s office for salaried deputy DA’s?
Or the reputation of an agency who could NOT solve this case. His agency, which overlooks Staton and his Bobby’s who are well set for doubling their retirements?
Maybe.
But the “leaking” of info by Kaine from LE is a thing of the past. The judge told Kaine if he leaked any more info than LE could be depoed by Houze.
BUT…and this is important. The leaking of “info” from Engels is another story. Engels isn’t saying LE told me. They are saying Rudy told me.
Of course the inconsistencies in this “leak” are rampant. But did you ever hear Engels spread rumours or tell a little “fib” in his previous Motions? Or Rackner? How about the drunken, non-parenting TMH that Kaine had to rescue the kids from on a day to day basis?
Engel’s, imo, is not an agent of Kaine. He is the state.
This is really not about a baby girl, OK…a 5y/o girl named Kiara….it is about an investigation gone awry.
It is no longer about finding Kyron…it is about who is going to win, by what means.
That Houze had no comment on this story says so much to me. Watching them it is so evedent that they are just in there, abiding by the law, saying their piece, quietly and ethically doing what is right for their client and for all of us that could be among the 2000 lanquishing in prison for crimes they never committed or having their LOVE taken away because an agency THOUGHT they did something against the law.
@Blink…..OK…now you got me at a loss…and I thought I knew american idioms.
What the heck does….”put my board on my ass” mean? Sounds nasty. LOL
Society of American Journalists
B
@Rose
Possible that this came from a joint depo. We don’t know what happened with Perp. depo vs the one Houze and Bunch had 14 days to attend.
If joint, Engels redacted to his best face. Then leaked his redaction in his reply to Motion to compel. Simple. Knows Anna will redact even more.
Kaine’s only disclaimer wsa about the $$$. Shows what’s important to him. Did not deny being abusive and did not deny threatening to take Kiara away.
One has to wonder why?
T. Ruth says:
December 8, 2013 at 1:04 pm
Thinking through this more, how do we know the deposition of RSE which is referred to in this story didn’t come from the now stayed, civil proceeding?
Do we know if RSE was ever deposed in that case? If so, maybe Desiree/Rosenthal is behind the leaking of this information, because as noted, it doesn’t put Kaine in a good light. This would make more sense to me.
?????
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Truth….no, not from Desiree.
Remember the FB note to that page? Asking what was going on and that she hoped this wouldn’t mean that TMH would get Kiara?
It was from a the depo of Rudy. But, IMO, a very cleverly redacted Depo. Just like the sexting tapes were.
oops, can u delete this same post from Travi’ thread Blink.
Have been & am out in dark desnowing car sorry
Rose says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
December 8, 2013 at 9:00 pm
It seems to me if the DA (&Engel) evaluated RSE as a credible witness, abke to withstand cross, there woukd be no need for sandbox bully litigation, kicking sand in the opponent’s eye. (Baez 101, Blink?) That would explain ER dropping Desiree’s suit as well. I don’t believe the “harm to the investigation” tho apparently DY did. It’s more likely the credibility of the lynchpin against Terri was sized up.
I wonder what DY’s theory of what Terri knows involves since RSE turned her down.
That Terri found another yardman? That Terri thought Kyron’s disappearance would aid
Kaine not taking Kiara for her? Imo Terri should’ve known it would have the opposite impact.
I cannot dig DY’s theory of the disappearance out of the RSE story.
And, erose, imo the motive for his story, which is a logically very weak story wrt the abduction,
is most likely RSE was involved, out of some unknown revenge motif against Terri.
(reporting him to ICE?)
Again sorry for being a Bhog-
RE- erose says:
December 8, 2013 at 2:10 am
I thought the depo of RSE had been taken prior to the perpetuity argument.
I am not clear as I would like at what “civil deposition” RSE participated in and Engel/Rackner was trying to convert to Rosetta Stone.
Is everyone clear that this allegation does not rise to the criminal statute in the first place? The ineptness of this shitshow by LE is beyond my comprehension and that is saying a lot. The DA is running at a close second and the only pass they get is they were handed the mess.
B
Blink I see your point and I have always agreed that IRT the MFHP that there is very little evidence that would rise to to the criminal statute.. Again MFHP with no murder and no money passing hands and no tape are virtually not prosecutable He said she said
But I disagree that LE began this MFHP investigation or sting as a shit show… what choice did they have Blink- a son was missing a dads life may be in danger and his daughter might be in danger because a man that says he was hired to kill Kaine by his wife was also accused of accosting mother with child…
The sting was brought forth because they had no evidence but they were trying to do their jobs…
That is an oxymoron. I am adamant on this point. If you have no evidence you have no probable cause and you cannot just make it up- it is called entrapment. Consider this point if you will- WHAT IF at some point TMF was found to have involvement in Ky’s disappearance? Do you realize these actions could harm or PRECLUDE LE from a successful prosecution in the case? This was an attempt to manufacture inclusion of what was 2 separate POSSIBLE criminal incidents and they clearly were not equipped to facilitate in the first place. In well trained LEA’s there is what is called a risk assessment meeting that takes place before this sort of thing would come in front of a judge for a warrant.
Now that we have seen excerpts from RSE depo- OMG, how did this ever rise to that level for this “ruse” is beyond me and I am betting that is why O’Donnell is back on patrol. Again, keep in mind LE knew about SZ and that was not RSE.
did it turn out to be a shit storm? it seems so the sting failed was it based on the truth or not IDK- but yeah its all a shitstorm Kyron is still missing- …..and a GJ is still sitting and has been for years… noone is charged terrri is still in hell as are kaine and desiree just a different hell…so yes it seems to be a rather crappy job by LE
You wrote in your response to Amys sister:
Amys Sister says:
December 8, 2013 at 12:45 pm
snip Blinks response:
At this point, help him, absolutely. He just prepared a response following his own deposition where he openly admitted all his information came from conversations with LE, and Kantor said in open court if he quotes LE, than LE “comes into play.”
I could be wrong, but I fervently believe Kaine knows there is no getting around him having to justify his initial and subsequent legal pleadings which CLEARLY do not even meet the legal standard to be a charge. If I am evaluating him , I have 2 options as I am WEIGHING the best interests of the child.
1. Does his reaction to that “story” seem a reasonable parental reaction and did he take any steps for Baby K’s sake to independently verify the allegation. (ie: ask for proof)
2. Was the response and subsequent voluntary alienation due to a pre-existing issue in the home and/or fear of a custody outcome.
Kaine has got to present he absolutely believed this to have happened and that he did proper diligence before unilaterally making the decision to separate this baby from her Mother and if this is all there is, I have my doubts that anyone reading it feels that a reasonable person would respond similarly without being coached to. He was. He wants those that put him in this position now to be held accountable without looking like a dolt himself, and being held responsible for repeating information he was told directly. He cant have it both ways- not about him and honestly not about Kyron at this point.
B
—–
Blink I do not claim to know the law but I am a reasonable person and I believe that due to the fact that these filings are in civil/divorce court the standard of ” Kaine knows there is no getting around him having to justify his initial and subsequent legal pleadings which CLEARLY do not even meet the legal standard to be a charge.” would not necessarily apply.
Mom 3.0- Kaine expressly stated in an affidavit that more than one Judge said there was enough to arrest TMH for the mfh. There are several more examples. I respectfully disagree with you, this will be a factor for argument in some form.
The problem is that LE did tell him things and these things are protected in an ongoing criminal investigation (not necessarily focused on terri any longer but still part of the In.)
Not if they or he waives privilege. Which he just did by quoting or misquoting RSE in the filing- all of which was previously ordered as “investigative to the ongoing nature of the criminal probe.” In a sense, it is repeating the same allegation that separated Mother and Child when he now KNOWS that it was based on hearsay and allegedly incorrect information. So this was an attempt at several backdoors that I believe will ultimately help Kaine in that he definitely to some degree believed what he was told, will outline the variances of anything he was told vs. what RSE actually said and LE could prove, and how that related to the alienation. This is about baby K’s rights first and foremost and I think that gets clouded- I will also add that it is my understanding and firm belief that the first grand jury returned a no true bill the first time around in the mfh case. That severely restricts what can be used from that preceeding for any other gj unless it was new or unknown at the time. Again, major error. Yet, Kaine renewed the FAPA’s with escalated information, so much so he indicated LE told him they were close to an arrest. Close to an arrest when the GJ returned a no true bill? WTH?
I believe it is reasonable that kaine felt he needed to protect Kiara and himself and Kyron should he return from terri- it is reasonable when LE is bringing forth info such as a p MFHP with a man a landscaper that you knew nothing of– it is reasonable when yr wife has failed polygraph tests, and when her accounts and times of that day are not adding up or seemingly change…
I want to be clear on this point as well. Kaine expressly stated that TMH was told she failed them. We have no knowledge she actually did with the exception that Rackner/Kaine says she did, vis e vie LE.
I have zero faith that is either true, nor do I have faith in the testing itself as I just spent 30 hours last Fall studying the same protocol used by every Federal LEA and the accredited and well-trained State LEA’s and I can say without reservation that whatever the Hell the examiner of TMH poly (same as DDS, btw) in concert with the investigators was doing- it is non-standard at best, outside of protocol and if TMH was asked similar questions to DDS I question the validity of the test in the first place. Ofsche would have a flipping field day with this.
it is reasonable for Kaine to do what he did based on the info he had and which was coming to light…it is not his fault that what he reasonably believed May have turned out to be faulty info…
he was acting in the best interests of both of his children to remove kiara and himself from the home, to get a restraining order… to file for divorce, to contest visitation…to ask for Terri to vacate the premises, all of it-
Terri could be totally innocent of everything but still based on what Kaine knew to include hateful emails he was acting in the childrens best interests- and at the time you felt the same Blink- you have since changed your thoughts maybe kaine has too heck maybe LE has- but does that change the way you reasonably reacted in the beginning?
when you were more apt to react with emotion and as though you were in kaines shoes? at the time it was reasonable he did what he had to based on LE info etc…
I am on the record I agree with the info Kaine had, in his situation he did what he felt he had to do. I agree it is reasonable to presume LE is telling you the truth and when you hire a lawyer who was a prosecutor for the DOJ ( again, chicken or egg on this remains to be seen as I have stated previously- whole nother hot mess if LE initiated this contact) and that advisor is also in belief. HOWEVER, I am going to ASSUME that what RSE is saying in his depo is NOT what Kaine/Rackner was told or even in the zipcode of what was offered to substantiate the allegation because if it was, then I take back my opinion Kaine and his counsels actions were in Kitty’s best interests, that proper due diligence was preformed and I find both behaviors wreckless and negligent.
Again, let me underscore if Kaine et al was not told something far more damning ( and lies) by LE I will be floored.
adding this :
On nov 12th 2010 Kaine filed Petitioner’s Response Regarding Respondent’s Motion for Dismissal in the custody/ divorce proceedings
Rackner wrote that the 5th Amendment generally applies to not having to make statements that self-incriminate during a criminal proceeding. However, the 5th Amendment right is not a blanket right to refuse to testify in a non-criminal proceeding
In a civil case this refusal can be taken as the person refusing to address those allegations just trying to avoid bad information coming to light
Kaines lawyer cited case law where, in a divorce case the husband refused to testify, citing his 5th Amendment right of protection from self-incrimination, about accusations made about him, the court ruled in favor of the wife …
Rackner wrote pp
that Oregon law states that an attorney in a civil proceeding must certify that the position being stated is based on “reasonable knowledge, information and belief, formed after the making of such inquiry as is reasonable under the circumstances”. Since TL Bunch filed a court document stating that Terri would be exercising her 5th Amendment right to prevent self-incrimination, the reasonable conclusion is that her lawyer is stating that after he made reasonable inquiry into the matter, Terri’s testimony will incriminate her
So theres that…
This is simple. If you will not be afforded the right to face your accusor (not agents, but the source or origin as all others are hearsay under the law) you cannot defend yourself of same and therefore our constitution provides for the 5th amendment right.
It is astounding to me that everyone wants to side-step the cornerstone of our American Jurisprudence Criminal System- the presumption of innocence.
Thanks for reading and moderating-
AJMO
Peace
DY’s comment on KHWS in regard to the kati revelation of Engel’s doc suggests she does NOT know what’s going on, is not in LE’s confidence as much as she would like us to believe.
As for T’s “unwillingness” to publicly proclaim her innocence, answer questions in depo and not participate directly in evaluation, these things are not up to her. She’s in big trouble. She has lost everything including her good name. All she has now are her attorneys. There is no doubt in my mind that she has been told that if she does not follow their instructions to the letter, she loses their representation. What would you do in these circumstances? If it were me, after my complete nervous breakdown, I would follow those instructions as though my life depended on it. Which in this case, it really does. So those criticizing T for her silence, please keep this in mind.
@Amy’s Sis, IMO, The MFH was only one component of KH’s concern. EM’s testimony goes to the very heart of KH’s allegations that he believes TH has something to do with the disappearance of his son.
From the innocent ’til proven guilty perspective, current conditions seem unfair. It seems that it is okay to put on the record a witness that will implicate her with no other verification but his word, but not okay to put another witness, whose story can be substantiated on the record that will essentially raise reasonable doubt of her participation.
Team Engel gets a bonus day, not unexpectedly given OR weather imo
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/12/multnomah_county_courthouse_cl.html#incart_river
I wonder if any of this article applies to civil litigators trying non-charged crimes?
http://www.spraginslaw.com/prosecutorial-misconduct.html
ex. “Prosecutor’s statement that an officer told the truth amounted to improper vouching. Expressions of personal opinion by the prosecutor are generally prohibited as a form of unsworn, unchecked testimony which tends to exploit the influence of the prosecutor’s office and undermine the objective detachment that should separate a lawyer from the advocated cause. State v. Tarter, 2006 Tenn. Crim. App. LEXIS 238, 18-20 (Tenn. Crim. App. 2006).”