Kyron Horman Missing and Endangered: Grand Jury Meets, Indictment Imminent
Portland, OR- In the case of missing 7-year-old Portland child Kyron Horman, developments today continue to unfold at lightening speed.
During a poorly-kept secret convening of a special grand jury that is in session today, sources inside the investigation believe it’s triers of fact will return an indictment against Terri Horman and possibly one other individual.
It is however, unclear as to whether or not the grand jury is hearing evidence in the alleged murder for hire plot MCSO informed Kaine Horman his wife had master-minded, OR evidence surrounding the disappearance of Kaine and Desiree Young’s son Kyron.
KOIN caught Terri Horman’s friend DeDe Spicher, who was subpoenaed to appear in the proceedings this morning, on video with her attorney, entering the courthouse. Spicher was the subject of a public plea asking her to cooperate with investigators by Kaine Horman and Desiree Young last week. A neighbor of Spicher’s has confirmed the FBI has been seen removing boxes and unknown bagged material from her residence.
According to several sources, DeDe Spicher, Terri’s roommate post Kaine’s restraining order, was working in a garden near the Horman home the day of Kyron’s disappearance when she received a call at approximately 11:15 am. She left abruptly, returning at approximately 1:00 pm. DeDe was unreachable on her cell phone during that time and the property owner became concerned. Spicher is a long time friend and workout companion of Horman’s.
Earlier today, Laura Rackner, Kaine Horman’s Family Law attorney filed a motion to find out where the funds are coming from to foot the bill for Terri Horman’s high profile criminal defense attorney, Stephen Houze.
In Horman’s motion, he is seeking the disclosure of the payments made to Houze, and whether or not it came from marital funds. If it has, Kaine Horman wants half the cash to pay his own legal bills. Kaine Horman alleges that Terri Horman disclosed to a third party that she paid a whopping $350,000 retainer to Houze, however, provided no proof of same in the papers filed today.
In what appears to be a media timing coup, tonight’s episode of Dateline NBC will feature Kaine Horman, Desiree and Tony Young, with interviews and coverage of Kyron’s disappearance.
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office Public Information Officer, Mary Lindstrand, has announced a press conference tomorrow at the MCSO Training Facility, beginning at 2:00 pm PST.
blinkoncrime editor Madeline Tanner contributed to this report
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44.beejay says:
August 19, 2010 at 2:46 pm
I think Ky was probably the victim of a sex crime. And then murdered.
~~~
This is my working theory although I haven’t expressed it because just the thought is too ugly. My belief is that TH (and others, I just can’t speculate how many) was into a sexting/texting game. This is the big shameful secret that TH didn’t want revealed to her husband, son, parents, etc. I suspect that RS and associates shared these texts and MC was a part of the game, which is why he had similiar/same pictures as RS and showed up on the scene as quick as he did.
I don’t know what broke that circle, but something happened to cause someone to take Kryon as revenge against TH. I firmly believe she was caught completely by surprise on June 4th, after leaving the school a 8:45 am and receiving a phone call, maybe around 10 am. At that point, she took off driving around her secret places, maybe after picking up DD, looking for where Kryon was stashed.
Bat phones were purchased in attempt to maintain contact with the kidnapper/s and keep Kryon alive. After all the abc agencies descended upon the scene, TH feared she could not keep her secret from being exposed, resulting in the inconclusive polygraphs.
In my experience, and I say this with great caution, people who are illegal know underground trafficing ways for all kinds of transporting. Within 30 hours, the kidnappers knew Kryon was too hot to keep around and disappeared him so deep, he may never be found. And it could have happened as easily as handing him off to someone and remaining ignorant about what happened to him.
It makes me sick to think these thoughts. The alternative, to demonize TH and DD, is easier than facing a really ugly and horrible reality.
Shelbar – yes, I saw your suggestion and started some thoughts, but didn’t get them finished until you reminded me.
Seems like you made a good start. I was just trying to think of all the times during that morning when even one thing might have gone wrong and how that might change whatever plan there was for Kyron and where he ended up – thinking if a hole in the plan could be found, you might be able to look through it and see what was going on, so to speak. I’m not saying any of those things did go wrong, of course. “The Discovery” (finding out Kyron was missing) part is puzzling too.
You have some good questions.
Did she expect Desiree to come that night?
Desiree did say Terri sounded surprised on the phone that they would come on up to Portland. If what we’ve heard about her behavior that evening is true, and I think it is because LE was there observing and can back up most of whatever the rest of the family says, there are only 2 explanations I can think of. Either she was totally self-absorbed and hadn’t rehearsed her personal act for “The Discovery”, or she thought Kyron would be returned before Desiree found out. (Picturing Terri thinking Kyron would be back that day is really hard for me to do.)
She probably didn’t expect or want the Young’s to stay at the house, along with an LE person. I don’t think she thought her communication with others would no longer be private all of a sudden – if there were loose ends, it left her out of the loop.
Did she expect the FBI to be called that night?
It’s hard to believe she wouldn’t expect the FBI to be involved, especially if she thought this could look like a kidnapping for ransom. If she thought it would seem to be a local sex offender, for example, then she might not have expected the FBI to be called, but they help all LE around here with resources anytime they are asked – that might not be clear from watching TV shows.
Did she expect to have to account for her time after 10 AM?
Kaine and Desiree said that when Tony talked to them about having every detail of their lives examined by LE, Terri seemed upset/irritated. I think she thought people would think she was a loving stepmom and a victim, too, and didn’t expect to be asked much in great detail except when she last saw Kyron. I doubt if she thought she’d have to actually prove anything down to the minute – taking care of Kiara, getting a few receipts, plus her word for the rest of the time seemed to be enough in her mind, but I also don’t think she planned to have that big an unexplained gap in her morning.
Did she expect the bat phones to be found?
Whether she expected them to be a problem probably depends on whether she saw them used and tracked on a TV show or mentioned in a book, however, it does not appear from their behavior that she or any of those who had them thought they were a liability if they didn’t use their names and then threw them away.
Terri really wasn’t such a great planner after all, so when she asked DeDe to help, DeDe took care of the details better than Terri ever could have, unfortunately. In fact, if DeDe’s boyfriend is correct that she was “extremely neat and clean and very organized”, she probably told Terri to just stay out of the way while she took care of everything. If it weren’t for DeDe, Terri’s role would have been obvious long ago.
I believe DeDe thinks she and Terri are extremely close and together forever, but I think Terri only thinks that now because of all DeDe has done to save her from being caught. If Terri is not found guilty, and tries to continue with her marriages, affairs, etc., she may find DeDe holds a bit of power over her that she didn’t realize she gave away.
@minima says: August 19, 2010 at 4:37 pm
“@news@five:…If you are up for it I would be really interested in your legal perspective of Kyron’s rights and how that may unfold, or is unfolding. I mean from the prosecutorial side.”
I’m in private practice, and I’m not anywhere near this case, nor do I represent anyone in this case. My expertise is as to family law, not criminal law.
With that disclaimer, I will do my best to answer your question as Kyron’s rights during a criminal prosecution against the person or persons responsible for his disappearance.
In a criminal matter, the prosecutor represents the state or federal government, not the victim. By its nature, this type of criminal matter is usually presented to the jury from the victim’s perspective, i.e. “You are going to hear evidence that the defendant kidnapped a little boy named Kyron Horman from school the morning of June 4, 2010…..”
The story as told to the jury sounds like the prosecutor is fighting for Kyron, when in reality, s/he is fighting on behalf state (or federal government). It’s a subtle distinction, but it’s important in that the prosecutor isn’t there to advocate for Kyron, s/he is there to advocate for the state (or federal government). This means that the victim does not have an advocate in the court room, at least not in the legal sense.
Although the defendant has someone there arguing for him or her, the only time you get someone arguing as the victim’s attorney is if the victim goes and hires a private attorney to intervene. That sort of thing is pretty rare. (As an aside, witnesses also do not have their own attorneys except and unless they are privately retained.)
The victim (or in this case, Kyron through his parents) can ask for notification when his perpetrator is up for parole or released.
The victim (Kyron) can also ask that his/her address and phone number be kept confidential from the defendant.
The victim (Kyron) can request a deputy district attorney present in the event he decides to talk to the defense attorney or his/her representative.
Oregon crime victims also have the right to be present in the courtroom during the trial, and this is an exemption to the rule on excluding witnesses. This is a bit hard to imagine such a young child would want to be present (or that his or her parents would allow him or her to be present). This right is found in ORS 40.385.
NOTE: You could have a situation where Kyron is a victim but crime at issue is not one in which he is a victim, i.e. if the state were to charge someone with obstruction. In the case of obstruction, the victim is the state. As a result, Kyron would not have the right to appear at all phases of the trial.
The one instance where a child victim would likely have attorney is if the state brings a case against the parent(s) (or guardian(s)) to remove the child from the parent’s home. I am not sure how this is handled in Oregon, but where I practice, the court appoints an attorney or guardian ad litem for the child.
In the family law matter, the court can appoint a guardian ad litem to make recommendations to the court about the child’s best interests. The court may also have the authority to order an attorney to represent the child, but that is usually something that happens where there is an older child who can articulate his or her wishes in the matter.
In this case, the only way there would be a family law matter is if one or both parents brought a motion to modify their parenting plan, or for emergency restraints. The only rumblings I have heard that anything like this would occur were Desiree’s comments that Kyron was anxious and told her he wanted to come live in Medford right before he disappeared.
The underlying statutes that apply to family law matters set forth a “best interest of the child” standard. The effect of these statutes is that the court will apply this standard to the matter before the court. That does not mean that the court can disregard issues such as adequate cause to modify the parenting plan and other issues, but once those thresholds are met, the court proceeds on the basis of the child’s best interest.
Something to consider when you look at the court’s procedures is that children do become autonomous individuals who can make decisions on their own behalf until they reach the age of majority or are emancipated by the court. This means that the child at issue cannot file any sort of a motion to intervene, object, or do anything else except and unless the child is represented by counsel. In many ways, it is like children are not seen as people, except where there is a specific statutory exception that allows the child some rights in the context of the court matter.
Oregon has a CASA (court appointed special advocate) system for abused and neglected children. A CASA advocates for the child who has become a ward of the state because his or her parents or guardians are abusive or neglectful to the point where the state will no longer allow the parents or guardians to care for the child. (NOTE: I am curious if Jason Wishert is a CASA, based on his statements to the Oregonian.)
As far as I can tell, in Oregon, CASA are not used as advocates for children in criminal court nor in family court. (I am not familiar with any state that uses CASA except in the case of advocating for children who have become wards of the state.)
Minima’s question is a good one, but the answers are not easy.
Although the United States helped draft the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, we have refused to ratify the treaty. Among other things, the Convention on the Rights of the Child states that a child has a right to express his or her views in matters affecting the child. This would include matters before the court that affect the child.
There is also other language within the treaty that is very specific as to the child’s right to autonomy. To ratify — and require Americans follow — the treaty would require a culture shift as to how we view chi
***Private: use this version***
@minima says: August 19, 2010 at 4:37 pm
“@news@five:…If you are up for it I would be really interested in your legal perspective of Kyron’s rights and how that may unfold, or is unfolding. I mean from the prosecutorial side.”
I’m in private practice, and I’m not anywhere near this case, nor do I represent anyone in this case. My expertise is as to family law, not criminal law.
With that disclaimer, I will do my best to answer your question as Kyron’s rights during a criminal prosecution against the person or persons responsible for his disappearance.
In a criminal matter, the prosecutor represents the state or federal government, not the victim. By its nature, this type of criminal matter is usually presented to the jury from the victim’s perspective, i.e. “You are going to hear evidence that the defendant kidnapped a little boy named Kyron Horman from school the morning of June 4, 2010…..”
The story as told to the jury sounds like the prosecutor is fighting for Kyron, when in reality, s/he is fighting on behalf state (or federal government). It’s a subtle distinction, but it’s important in that the prosecutor isn’t there to advocate for Kyron, s/he is there to advocate for the state (or federal government). This means that the victim does not have an advocate in the court room, at least not in the legal sense.
Although the defendant has someone there arguing for him or her, the only time you get someone arguing as the victim’s attorney is if the victim goes and hires a private attorney to intervene. That sort of thing is pretty rare. (As an aside, witnesses also do not have their own attorneys except and unless they are privately retained.)
The victim (or in this case, Kyron through his parents) can ask for notification when his perpetrator is up for parole or released.
The victim (Kyron) can also ask that his/her address and phone number be kept confidential from the defendant.
The victim (Kyron) can request a deputy district attorney present in the event he decides to talk to the defense attorney or his/her representative.
Oregon crime victims also have the right to be present in the courtroom during the trial, and this is an exemption to the rule on excluding witnesses. This is a bit hard to imagine such a young child would want to be present (or that his or her parents would allow him or her to be present). This right is found in ORS 40.385.
NOTE: You could have a situation where Kyron is a victim but crime at issue is not one in which he is a victim, i.e. if the state were to charge someone with obstruction. In the case of obstruction, the victim is the state. As a result, Kyron would not have the right to appear at all phases of the trial.
The one instance where a child victim would likely have attorney is if the state brings a case against the parent(s) (or guardian(s)) to remove the child from the parent’s home. I am not sure how this is handled in Oregon, but where I practice, the court appoints an attorney or guardian ad litem for the child.
In the family law matter, the court can appoint a guardian ad litem to make recommendations to the court about the child’s best interests. The court may also have the authority to order an attorney to represent the child, but that is usually something that happens where there is an older child who can articulate his or her wishes in the matter.
In this case, the only way there would be a family law matter is if one or both parents brought a motion to modify their parenting plan, or for emergency restraints. The only rumblings I have heard that anything like this would occur were Desiree’s comments that Kyron was anxious and told her he wanted to come live in Medford right before he disappeared.
The underlying statutes that apply to family law matters set forth a “best interest of the child” standard. The effect of these statutes is that the court will apply this standard to the matter before the court. That does not mean that the court can disregard issues such as adequate cause to modify the parenting plan and other issues, but once those thresholds are met, the court proceeds on the basis of the child’s best interest.
Something to consider when you look at the court’s procedures is that children do become autonomous individuals who can make decisions on their own behalf until they reach the age of majority or are emancipated by the court. This means that the child at issue cannot file any sort of a motion to intervene, object, or do anything else except and unless the child is represented by counsel. In many ways, it is like children are not seen as people, except where there is a specific statutory exception that allows the child some rights in the context of the court matter.
Oregon has a CASA (court appointed special advocate) system for abused and neglected children. A CASA advocates for the child who has become a ward of the state because his or her parents or guardians are abusive or neglectful to the point where the state will no longer allow the parents or guardians to care for the child. (NOTE: I am curious if Jason Wishert is a CASA, based on his statements to the Oregonian.)
As far as I can tell, in Oregon, CASA are not used as advocates for children in criminal court nor in family court. (I am not familiar with any state that uses CASA except in the case of advocating for children who have become wards of the state.)
Minima’s question is a good one, but the answers are not easy.
Although the United States helped draft the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, we have refused to ratify the treaty. Among other things, the Convention on the Rights of the Child states that a child has a right to express his or her views in matters affecting the child. This would include matters before the court that affect the child.
There is also other language within the treaty that is very specific as to the child’s right to autonomy. To ratify — and require Americans follow — the treaty would require a culture shift as to how we view children.
Thank you. BeeJay.
Angelab: Yes, I agree about Mexican Orphanage. Something just doesn’t “feel right” about this man. Also, he’s very close to Skyline School. He appears to surround himself with children, and has for quiet awhile. If LE would ask him to take a polygraph test…I don’t think he would. Not for a second. I rarely get these feelings…and I hope I’m wrong. I don’t think so, and I plan to make some contacts.
Sorry but Dede’s ex isn’t the first dude to assume a girl is a lesbian bc she rejected him.
His not so subtle suggestion did nothing but make me think he might be jealous of the girlie friendship btw TH and DS.
I personally found that letter laced with thinly veiled innuendo about lesbian stereotype distasteful and would have had more respect had he said, “To tell you the truth, she did not appear to be “that into Me” and I suspect she may actually be gay..”
I really do not get the fixation on whether or not either woman is bi, gay, or hetero.
Does it really make any sense to anyone that TH is offing a 7 year old to end up with a woman she has known at times when she was single. I am uber anal about how I store my tupperware, does that make me bi?
Imo, there is no motive to be found here that I am aware of as to a possible romance between TH and DS.
I do not usually say this, but in the interest of disclosure I feel I must.
Dede absolutely creeps me out. I mean, everything about her. No malice intended, and I cannot put my finger on it.
B
Blink:
I’m so sorry if I’ve made my opinions too strong. I’ll understand if
you chose to delete.
August 19, 2010 at 6:36 pm
Methinks there is at least one poster on this blog that is pos(t)ing as more than one person, and actually commenting and then answering his/her own blog under another name in support of himself/herself. Could be you-know-who. Just sayin I noticed.
What?
I sincerely hope you take the time to explain
LOL hmm ChiaPet- write a note to Blink privately by doing *private* as she will see it and not post it if you have a problem.. I would like to know who it is now…hehe
B
http://www.oregon.gov/OJD/docs/OSCA/cpsd/citizenreview/CRBNetworkNews0706final.pdf?ga=t
Above is the link to the Oregon Citizen Review Board Newsletter. On page 5, 2nd para. you will see Jason WishArt. This is how he has been known to the CRP for the many years that he has been with them. Beejay, considering that intensive screening form you showed that they make their volunteers fill out and the criminal background check, it’s doubtful that they would have gotten his name wrong. It appears that Jason Wishert and Jason Wishart are, in fact, one and the same.
If you have an important tip -
someone else called the police directly when they thought they saw Kyron, please do so or write a letter or email or all of the above!
Lots of people are all over about Jason W,
Blink does he also have a troubled past or is he just trying to make up for “the sins of the father” or off in some other way?
Shelly says:
What are everyones thoughts about Jason Wisherts article referenced on OL (Dede’s ex bf) and his “account of relationship”?
——————
Imo,
He seems like a guy who is clearly out of touch — especially if he doesn’t understand the residual side effects of being unemployed. For him to openly criticize her for that, says to me, that he’s a dumb chump.
But the kicker is this: He dated her for 10 months. Excuse me, that doesn’t mean you know this woman at all. That is less than 1 year.
Take a hike, buddy — including this silly “account” of anything. It’s worthless.
Your pal,
IMO
——————
@ChiaPet517: “Methinks there is at least one poster on this blog that is pos(t)ing as more.
“I agree with you 100% Percent!”
All right Blinksters and Moosters, I’m gonna do it -hopefully it will come out OK in print
Me: “”Knock, knock”
Blinksters: “who’s there”?
me: “Interrupting cow”
Blinksters: Interrupting c
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Tell your family and then everyone just MOOS at each other – great stress reduction which you all need dealing with this! (can also text..I guess Tweet too if you know how to do it)
We may never know why Anselmo Sanchez-Sanchez became a federal inmate. The “feds” are very secretive in listing any details on why their inmates go into the federal system. Many times if an illegal is taken into federal custody, it may not mean that they committed a crime other than being here illegally and they may be a witness to a crime; or the feds may use their illegal status as a “blanket” charge in order to hold the inmate for questioning. I can only surmise that if Anselmo was released, that the feds are finished with him and he may have been turned over to “ICE” or some other agency and we may never know why the feds were interested in him in the first place. It’s the way the FBI operates. Remember – people go into the “Witness Protection Program” sometimes because of what info they know about some very dangerous people. Not saying that this is the case with Anselmo. He may have been questioned, had nothing to give the feds, and then turned over to another agency – or just let go. Perhaps he’s changed his name by now and we’ll never hear of him again. I’ve commented before that some people never talk.
Was just reviewing a post from “RIZZY” on Scared Monkeys website….The Post is called Kyron Horman Who’s Who. Impressive the list of people that are posted under this…the only name I do NOT see mentioned is “Anselmo Sanchez-Sanchez.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8384.0;prev_next=next#new
(Rudy Sanchez is on the list, but not Anselmo) WTH?
#43 Futureman says:
August 19, 2010 at 8:41 pm
ChiaPet517: “Methinks there is at least one poster on this blog that is pos(t)ing as more than one person, and actually commenting and then answering his/her own blog under another name in support of himself/herself. Could be you-know-who. Just sayin I noticed.”
Blink: “What? I sincerely hope you take the time to explain.”
S/he means snapoutofit is playing more games on this site. I’ve suspected this as well.
_________________
Today is the first time posting on this site since Blink responded to me. Leave me out of this!!!!! Snap
O my head and it is not even 9 am.
snap is telling the truth. She has one ip and one name.
B
I should state that I do believe DD is involved to some degree and am not defending her by any means. However, I just think it’s presumptuous for JS to write this letter, and hasn’t helped himself look any better by sharing it with the class.
Re my earlier post of legal quotes – I looked for the legal definition of “ongoing crime” but didn’t find one. Something like racketeering might qualify, but holding someone who has been kidnapped fits the definition in my way of thinking, too.
“A lawyer might be called; but the lawyer/client privilege shields him or her from being compelled to testify about a conversation with a client unless the conversation related to an ongoing or future crime or fraud of the client.”
Newsatfive – can you help?
Hello,
Lot’s of catching up for me. Of coarse I will comment on Mr. W. I find it highly suspicious for several reasons, primarily my gut instinct.
But what are the odd’s that DD’s recent bf pops out of nowhere? Can we say – involving oneself into a criminal investigation? He currently runs a fencing company ( interesting pun in itself), his former career LANDSCAPING,heis a ‘big wig’ in child advocacy in MEXICO. Rudy and Anselmo likely worked for him, asI doubt they were the brains in this operation. Another thing I have been concerned about and have not mentioned was some of the pics TH had on fb. Did you notice the amount of pics of other children? I thought that was strange, in that I kind of felt it was an unspoken rule amongfriends not to label children or post without the parents okay. You note, none answered like they were parents. She commented to some invisible on looker. I had a suspicious mind at the time, but left me thinking she was advertising. KWIM?
Anyway, those are my thought thus far on the discussion of Wishart or Wishert. Besides, Blink would have stopped the discussion on an innocent by now. JMO. I think he is the big fish. You all can yell at me for my lack of direct evidence. I will even say, ? DD may not know of the whole deal, I dont know. Here is a qote from the former landscaping deal:
Originally, Embassy Enterprises was a yard care company that developed into small exterior projects like installing retaining walls, pathways, and raised garden beds. Due to the nature of this work, Jason Wishert obtained his Oregon Construction Contractors Board license (#141629) in early 2000. This opened the door to fencing projects and by 2001, fencing and gates became the main focus of Embassy Enterprises.
Coincidence?
I have to say, I have yet to not agree with Seamus, and I think in his work where could be “reaching” or take license, he never has that I have reviewed.
To date, I find him quite good.
B
Blink – I’m glad you commented about Seamus. I’ve wondered what you thought and whether you know him. The first time I read his blog, I was impressed enough to read the book he recommends. Since then I’ve looked for more information about statement analysis and find it fascinating. He seems to follow the accepted guidelines for statement analysis quite closely.
He always explains why he says what he does and when you have to be careful about drawing a particular conclusion. I don’t find him judgmental or misleading and I think he makes it easy to remember it’s a very useful tool and not a 100% guaranteed conclusion. I am a bit biased, but I’m starting to believe statement analysis by a trained evaluator is more scientific, probably more accurate, and more useful than many of the psychiatric evaluations (which are based on the client’s self-reports without other input) that I have read.
The boyfriend’s 4-page letter was fascinating writing even if there were a lot of twists and turns. The statement analysis Seamus did helped me to organize my thoughts about it.
One question for the early risers in Portland – does anyone know if the Fred Meyer parking lot cameras take actual video, or just still pics at timed intervals? I’m wondering if there might be something LE saw but with gaps which they would like filled in.
My observation at other stores has been that the cameras do not rotate, but I’m wondering about that too.
Oh – for those who wondered what Fred Meyer’s is like – they were bought out by Kroger maybe 8 or 10 years ago (not sure). Kroger is in all but a few states, so perhaps that gives you an idea. Fred Meyer has large clothing and gardening sections, but otherwise compares pretty closely with the Kroger stores I’ve been to in Kentucky.
@tarmancer and others that responded to Alsomo’s release: Thank you again! I am not familiar with the prison/jail system in OR. I was just freakin out that he was actually released. I can see now that he would have been transfered/detained to another facility. But Gawd, I’d love to know what he was booked on? Just the illegal status or more? (US Marshall involved, but for WHAT EXACT reason?). On needles waiting for that info.
Would LE be able to release his booking information, etc..? or is it all sealed. Just wonderin.
Love to all you blinksters and more love for Kyron!
KATU had a comment where the name “Mike Hawk” was thrown out by someone who seemed very close to TH. KATU deleted the post. Seems like the cops are watching the boards and directed that comment to be removed.
Im pretty sure Terri knows where Kyron is. and her friend DE dee. would probably know also. remember friends do protect each other. In times of a crisis. I would possible assume she helped terri is a time of panick. what ever that could have been is up to LE and the Public to figure out. bringing home Kyron safely. is what we want.
WOW, just WOW. You have to check out this article that was just posted on OregonLive this evening at 10:30 p.m. PST.
It is called, “Terri Moulton Horman: Kyron Horman’s stepmother is a profile in contradictions”. It includes much new information from Kain, James, ex-husbands, ex in-laws, former colleagues, neighbors and others.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8387.160
On Aug 17, 2010, at 11:08 wrote:
Is William Wishart related to you?
William K. Wishart
From: <jwishert
Date: Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:23 PM
no
_____________________
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8387.180
Snipped – SlapHappyPappy
First off, I would like to say that it is not fair to comment on my family, they need their privacy respected. I am fair game, I have nothing to hide and only speak the truth from my heart. I want Kyron found and if it means that I need to be in the hotseat, so be it.
Oops – Meant to say SlapHappyPappy is Jason W.
Great article in the Oregonian about Terri. Lot’s of new information we haven’t heard before. I hate to say this but she does remind me of Susan Smith…very energetic, outgoing and professional yet strangely unfulfilled inside. She seems to be searching for purpose and meaning, losing interest and joy in almost everything she undertakes. I still have a hard time envisioning her doing first-hand physical harm to Kyron although I do think she knows what happened to him.
Let’s assume that the Sanchez’s and associates are moving large amounts of meth into Oregon and Washington. I don’t know what Rudy looks like, but Anselmo looks like he could run with that bunch, and he’s not afraid of prison. He’ll get a few more tats, lay low and be deported in a couple of years. Nothing to him.
Let’s also assume that during their fling, Terri and Rudy did talk about killing Kaine. Terri promises Rudy big bucks which is what Rudy needs. Rudy could easily be a small time distributor/runner in the meth ring. He can casually drive around in his landscaping service truck and not look suspicious anywhere. But Rudy is a bumbling bad guy and messed up in his duties and either got robbed, ripped off or stole his bosses money for a delivery. His boss wants his money, is a bad man and can have people taken care of.
Terri wants to hurt Kaine in a bad way. She really wants him dead, but Rudy is a coward and proposes they do something else. Rudy tells her he needs money really bad, the economy has tanked and his business is closing. Terri proposes a kidnapping. Rudy is trying to keep his family and himself alive, so he tells his boss there’s this rich bitch in NW Portland who is supposed to give him the money. She’s going to give him a little boy and Rudy wants to trade him for the money he owes. His boss tells him to go for it.
Rudy/associate is/are at the school when Terri arrives and moves their vehicle close to the truck. Rudy/associate hangs out around the truck to watch for anything and wait until Kyron comes out. Terri and the kids take in the science fair. Kiara is fussy and not feeling well. Terri tells Kyron that she must get Kiara some medicine and since it’s more than an hour before classes start, he will have to go with her. She tells him she’s going to get Kiara to the truck and in her seat and he can go down the hall and look at a few more projects and then to go out the so and so door and come to the truck.
When Kyron gets to the truck, Rudy/associate snatches Kyron or Terri tells him to get into Rudy/associates truck, she’ll meet him at Freddys. Rudy and Terri give each other a wink and Terri goes shopping.
After getting Kitty some medicine she heads to where she and Rudy are to meet. He never shows. Perhaps the plan was for Rudy/associate to meet DeDe “down on the road” to pass Kyron to her for keeping, but he never shows up there either. Terri drives around the area where DeDe was working and they run into each other on the road. They discuss the deep shit they are in and do some frantic panicked driving around to try to find Rudy/associate/Kyron. They realize they are not going to find him and DeDe needs to get back to work. They decide it’s best to continue as originally planned. DeDe goes back to work, Terri goes to the gym.
Terri flunked two polys and walked out of another. We don’t know if DeDe has taken one, but I would bet if she has she was deceitful and failed. Or else why would she be under so much LE scrutiny. Neither has been named a person of interest or a suspect, but both have hired attorneys.
So where is Rudy and what has he been up to? I’m sure he’s fed LE enough juicy tidbits, that they are desperately trying to verify, and promised to blab on the stand, that he’s worked a good deal with them. It’s either stupid, bumbling Rudy, gullible to think they won’t get him on something else or it’s Rudy, whose planning his own disappearance to his home country. I doubt any of these people know what ultimately happened to Kyron.
For Kyron, and for all defenseless children, I hope these people are served a big dose of justice.
I thought that Klaasend posted on the JW thread a short exchange where the question of his parentage was posed and there was a simple ‘no’ reply?
I’d look for the link, but I’ve just got home from being in the hospital since Monday with my 14 month old and Oh The Laundry that we have amassed. A boy came in who looked so much like Kyron that I hoped it was a sign but came home to this JW business and People magazine getting friendly with DS?!
Enough of the crazies… where is Kyron??!!
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html
Great piece on TH. The posters on OL seem to think this paints TH in a positive light. I, however, believe it speaks to how manipulative she can be. She wins a $250,000 law suit, has a baby with RT and then divorces him. Wonder if that money is still around and if KH knew about it? Then she marries RE, gets her education paid for by his parents? Manipulates him to adopt James and then divorces him. Not only did she get him to pay child support but she convinced him to pay her more than he was responsible for. Ok she goes on to meet KH, who buys her a mustang, a home of her choice, and then she becomes pregnant after they discussed not having children?? IMO she moves on when she can no longer benefit from the relationship. I wonder if she faked the migraines when she was with RE to set the stage for a divorce. Perhaps she was faking PPD with KH setting the stage for a divorce. It appears there were problems in the marriage, she was spending money behind KH’s back, she was losing patience with the kids, so it sounds like the marriage was heading for divorce. I also found it interesting that she is described as being highly organized and plans in advance. Seems to me June 4th was pre-planned and organized up until 10:15. Lastly, I found James comment at the end very interesting, “She’s not supposed to leave the house.” House arrest perhaps?
Terri Moulton Horman: Kyron Horman’s stepmother is a profile in contradictions
Published: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 10:30 PM Updated: Friday, August 20, 2010, 5:27 AM
Lynne Terry, The Oregonian Lynne Terry, The Oregonian
Very interesting read. This article speaks volumes. She even interviewed young JM
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html
@Dee: you said
Dee says:
August 19, 2010 at 9:29 pm
Beejay…thanks for making that call
________________________________________________
Remember, I did not speak to Mr. Robin___ because he is on vacation till Aug. 30. Nor did I leave a msg.
So, if you want to pursue, you need to do so. I will not be doing so.
@Dee: you said
“Above is the link to the Oregon Citizen Review Board Newsletter. On page 5, 2nd para. you will see Jason WishArt. This is how he has been known to the CRP for the many years that he has been with them. Beejay, considering that intensive screening form you showed that they make their volunteers fill out and the criminal background check, it’s doubtful that they would have gotten his name wrong. It appears that Jason Wishert and Jason Wishart are, in fact, one and the same.”
________________
Yes, I knew that was your reasoning. My caution is that Mr. Robin___ might have simply misspelled his name in a ref. letter; maybe not referring back to his background check.
I saw the material from the annual training those advocates have to attend with a listing of them and his name was spelled there as Wishert.
I do so want everyone to be cautious with this. Glad to see you doing followup with his school. Surprised they’d release that info. to you by phone.
Firing the gun too quickly on this could jeopardize helpful work done in child advocacy by an appropriate person. And none of us wants that, I’m sure. That work he does is only supposed to involve file reviews and never any face-to-face contact with the child. I KNOW–having the placement addresses would give a “bad” guy access.
Please be careful with this man everybody.
The article was very interesting in many ways. I found some of Kaine’s statements about Terri spending money to be kind of strange. He first says that she was spending “MY MONEY” and then calls it “THEIR MONEY”. Maybe he is a bit controlling. In every relationship there are at least three sides to every story- his, hers, and the truth.
I was a bit confused about the timeline of the piece. The writer leaves out a big chunk of info when she jumps to say that Terri was forced out of the Portland home to live with her parents back in February. It seems to me that we are missing a lot of details in and around that time about their relationship and her behavior. And the writer also only alludes to Terri’s strictness with Kyron at the beginning of the article and then does nothing to flesh out such incendiary suggestions.
After reading that piece, I feel no closer to understand anything about this whole tragic saga, except that we are dealing with some dysfunctional people, Terri being possibly the most disturbing.
MOO
I really enjoy Seamus’ analysis too! The only thing I didn’t so much agree with is that George did something to Casey years back. Other then that him and I agree..
Specially on this De De X.. He is a piece of work!! He sounds like a controlling egotistical loser…
LPB – 1:04 a.m. – The Federal system is very different from the
State system. I worked for the State. We almost never knew why we were housing federal inmates. They came in on very basic charges such as illegal status, or federal drug charges. The U.S. Marshall’s transported these inmates usually overnight or for a few days. They were always kept separate from the other state inmates. We didn’t know what their charges were and we didn’t ask. We housed them, fed them, gave them rec time individually – nothing more nothing less. If we asked why they were being held, we never got an answer. We never asked. Always very secretive. We never found out what happened to them after they left our care and custody. You have to “let it go.” We will probably never find out who he is. Although we have some very persistent researchers here who may just get to the bottom of it!
snipped from article referenced in #24
James said he misses his little sister — and would like to see Kaine as well.
“He was like a dad to me,” James said. “I lived with him for eight years.”
Kaine hopes to talk to James again soon.
What about Kyron, James doesn’t miss Kyron???weird
@Dee:
Here’s some more data for you on Jason Wishert. In that child advocacy’s annual training event for 2008 they listed their volunteers with their years of service. Scroll down to pg. 9. They were using his name “Wishert” with an ‘e’ at that time:
http://www.oregon.gov/OJD/docs/OSCA/cpsd/citizenreview/Title_Agenda_Presenters_Volunteer_Anniversaries.pdf
I looked at the 2010 training conference and they didn’t list any volunteers that year. I didn’t look any farther.
Blink, you wrote:
Imo, there is no motive to be found here that I am aware of as to a possible romance between TH and DS.
I do not usually say this, but in the interest of disclosure I feel I must.
Dede absolutely creeps me out. I mean, everything about her. No malice intended, and I cannot put my finger on it.
B
____________________________________
That is really interesting that she creeps you out. I don’t get the same creep-out vibe from DeDe, but ex-bf got my twinkle-sense twinkling. But I trust your blinky-sense too. I also trust intution a great deal and would love to hear you elaborate on anything about her that trips your blinky-sense. With the ex-bf, it was his “i am so altruistic and into rescuing children” proclamations that for me conjured images of Ted Bundy working on the suicide hotline. You know what I mean.
Also, I agree, I don’t see any evidence of a romantic relationship between TH and DS either. But even if there was one, I don’t think it really matters much to this case. It seems sex to TH was like a handshake to the rest of us. Hi, nice to meet you. Shower? Cigarette?
lol, I wish I could get there because I feel irresponsible having such an opinion and not understanding why-
Here is my best effort:
I imagine her in the role of Kathy Bates in Misery.
There seems to be such a disjoint between things she claims to be into vs. the actual.
I can hear her say dodie bird or whatever in my head
B
I thought the Oregon Live article was well done. IMO Lynne Terry clarified a lot of rumors and put forth the good with the bad. I found is especially interesting that James said TH is “not supposed to leave the house”. Houze arrest or house arrest?
MockingbirdSings says:
August 20, 2010 at 1:02 am
One question for the early risers in Portland – does anyone know if the Fred Meyer parking lot cameras take actual video, or just still pics at timed intervals? I’m wondering if there might be something LE saw but with gaps which they would like filled in.
My observation at other stores has been that the cameras do not rotate, but I’m wondering about that too.
******
Yes, I asked about this yesterday as well. I’m thinking we are right, it makes sense. Also, loved your suggestion for the Wall of Hope and Kyron’s mailbox. I’m so glad you sent it to Kaine.
S says:
August 20, 2010 at 4:26 am
S, some of your theories about Kyron’s actual abduction are very similar to mine. I never thought of any “drug running” involvement, but I never thought about most of the things that have come to light in this case! The very idea really scares me.
IIRC, RS landscape has a white truck similar to the Horman’s? I have that stuck in my head but I can’t remember how it got there. At any rate, the grounds keeper from last week’s media also drives a white truck but smaller with the trailer attached. I don’t think he is involved, it just seems there were an awful lot of white trucks zipping around on the morning of June 4th. LE asked everyone parked in the South lot of skyline that morning to call in with their names, car info. and license plate numbers. IMO, how confusing for everyone!
My goodness, yesterday was so busy here. JW, DS, mexican orphanages, Hispanic work camp raids…I have a lot to ponder over, my wee little brain is spinning! So many of you have done a ton of research and it is much appreciated. I’m having images of everyone here in Portland, dressed in trench coats and fedoras, busting in and rescuing Kyron. I sure hope someone rescues him soon. My heart just aches.
Anselmo Sanchez-Sanchez BOP FCI Sheridan Oregon
It says release date unknown..maybe he hasn’t been released??
http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/InmateFinderServlet?Transaction=NameSearch&needingMoreList=false&FirstName=anselmo&Middle=&LastName=sanchez-sanchez&Race=U&Sex=M&Age=28&x=61&y=15
Re: Terri’s profile on Oregonlive
I flag these areas;
Moving new room mate’s bookshelf (still loaded with books) out to the yard to be rained upon. Then is hurt when room mate questions the action. Terri didn’t get why that was a problem. [Big flag here.]
Required DAILY behavior reports from Kyron’s teacher. Wanted Kaine to dicipline him each day his behavior was not perfect. There was no room for error, according to Kaine.
Vented to Desiree in daily emails about Kaine, about everything and about the teacher (Terri thought she should have the teachers job).
And, finally this, about sending James away;
“I was on a business trip when she made that decision,” Kaine said. “She called me on my first day (in California) and said they had gotten into a fight. She couldn’t handle it anymore. She was going to call his dad to talk about other options.”
Kaine said he didn’t want James to move out, but it wasn’t his decision.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html
MockingbirdSings says:
August 20, 2010 at 12:19 am
Re my earlier post of legal quotes – I looked for the legal definition of “ongoing crime” but didn’t find one. Something like racketeering might qualify, but holding someone who has been kidnapped fits the definition in my way of thinking, too.
“A lawyer might be called; but the lawyer/client privilege shields him or her from being compelled to testify about a conversation with a client unless the conversation related to an ongoing or future crime or fraud of the client.”
******
Again, thank you for posting this, I found the same thing when I googled it. IMO it seems that this would apply here. I would love it if anyone can enlighten me in this matter.
Is there a strategic reason for the abrupt silence from Kaine, Desiree and Tony?
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hx0U87fEdtEJ:deedle-dede.blogspot.com/+http://deedle-dede.blogspot.com/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
“Deedle’s Blog”
I am a member on SM and have looked at all the post that JW does now with the members, yes, he really only knew her very well for a short time. I think the significant thing he says is that when she lost her job she went into a depression and seemed to changed, went off her diet and didn’t look for work, just collected unemployment. (He seems hyperfocused on her appearance as well)
Also, if JW is involved in Kyron’s disappearance or any other hinky stuff then he is dumb as a door knob for hanging his butt out for the world to inspect! MOO. That said, I did gain some insight on DS from his letter and interview with KATU news. I hope this link works:
http://www.katu.com/news/101101779.html
With all of the extensive searches for Kyron just in the immediate area of Skyline school and surrounding area, I don’t understand why LE isn’t any closer to finding Kyron. Certainly the have been tips and leads that have prompted authorities to follow up on this.
My neighbor was up at Skyline school a week ago and a couple stopped by and she chatted with them. They told her that they had some property nearby that has been searched 8 times.
This article was from August 8th: http://www.kptv.com/news/24556227/detail.html
I know there are theories and speculation about where Kyron is, but considering LE continuing to go back to that one area, are they looking for just forensic evidence or for Kyron?
Clinton Van Zandt,FBI Vet, was interviewed recently on News Radio 1190 KEX. This link only has the audio of one question.
http://www.1190kex.com/cc-common/mediaplayer/player.html?redir=yes&mps=markanddave.php&mid=http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/26191/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/26191/610/richmedia/clinton_van_zandt_extra.mp3?CCOMRRMID=20386738&CPROG=RICHMEDIA&MARKET=PORTLAND-OR&NG_FORMAT=&NG_ID=&OR_NEWSFORMAT=&
Early on it was asked if Anselmo Sanchez-Sanchez was the same Anselmo Sanchez listed on this Crime Stoppers website for an incident that happened in 2002. Was it ever verified that it is the same person?
I asked this question early on, so sorry to repeat myself!!
http://a056-crimestoppers.nyc.gov/crimestoppers/public/publicmwViewfelon.cfm?mwID=474
@ MockingbirdSings says: August 20, 2010 at 12:19 am
“‘A lawyer might be called; but the lawyer/client privilege shields him or her from being compelled to testify about a conversation with a client unless the conversation related to an ongoing or future crime or fraud of the client.’ Newsatfive – can you help?”
The Oregon Rules of Professional Conduct permit (“may reveal” not “shall reveal”) disclosure of confidential information as to the client’s intent to commit a crime and the necessary information to prevent the crime. This appears to give the lawyer the ability to notify law enforcement or the potential victim of the crime.
The lawyer may also disclose information “to prevent reasonably certain death or substantial bodily harm.” (This is sometimes referred to as a “Tarasoff warning.”) This is an interesting provision as it does not allow a lawyer to disclose information that would not cause substantial bodily harm.
Oregon Rules of Professional Conduct also state that a lawyer cannot “counsel a client to engage, or assist a client, in conduct that the lawyer knows is illegal or fraudulent.” As an example, this would mean that if a client comes to you and says, “Hey, I’m thinking about robbing a bank…” the lawyer cannot recommend that the client commit the crime or help the client in committing the crime.
That said, Oregon allows “a lawyer may discuss the legal consequences of any proposed course of conduct with a client.” This means that lawyer could tell the hypothetical would-be bank robber that if s/he robs the bank, then __________ is the crime with which s/he would likely be charged.
There may be other issues a lawyer encounters in disclosing information where such disclosure is discretionary. The client could turn around and sue the lawyer if the lawyer’s disclosure of “reasonably certain death or substantial bodily harm” was not “reasonably certain,” or if there was only “reasonably certain” but less than substantial bodily harm.
There might also be a potential civil case against the lawyer who fails to warn and the client nonetheless causes harm to another.
Here’s one for you: What happens if a client tells his/her lawyer where to find the bodies of missing children? Is the lawyer required to call authorities? Is the lawyer even permitted to call authorities? Here is one case that led to a major change in the Model Rules of Professional Conduct:
http://www.cbalaw.org/_files/publications/lawyers-quarterly/The%20Case%20of%20the%20Buried%20Bodies,%20Legal%20Ethics%20and%20What%20it%20Means%20to%20Be%20a%20Lawyer.pdf