Kyron Horman Case: Terri Horman Attorneys Call Her A Suspect
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In court papers filed Wednesday, Bunch went further, noting that Terri Horman is a “de facto suspect” in the second-grader’s disappearance…”
Portland, OR- In a voluntary appearance in court yesterday for matters relating to the pending divorce motion by estranged husband Kaine; Terri Horman showed her face for the first time since the week after her stepson, Kyron, vanished from Skyline School.
Although Kaine Horman opted to be represented by his counsel Laura Rackner and not appear personally to protect himself emotionally, according to Rackner, Terri Horman braved the fray.
Arriving with attorneys Peter Bunch and Stephen Houze, the trio was immediately met and escorted by MCSO deputies in “the box” formation to the 5th floor courtroom where local media scurried in from behind. Within 45 minutes, Judge Meisenheimer ruled in Kaine Horman’s favor and granted his request that the issues of the mortgage-sized retainer, allegedly furnished by Terri to Houze and other distribution and custody issues will be heard in a hearing on October 7, denying her request to have the issues bifurcated.
During the proceeding, Bunch argued that his Client cannot properly litigate the divorce and custody actions currently because she is.”..unable to proceed in the ordinary course to protect her rights as to discovery, property division, support and, particularly, custody and parenting time issues.”
In fact, for the first time publicly, we learn a very important detail about the criminal investigation into Kyron Horman’s disappearance.
According to her counsel, who would certainly be “in the know”, Terri Horman has NOT been named a suspect by MCSO in Kyron’s case, but she is painfully aware she is one.
Loosely translated, a defacto suspect is an unofficially declared suspect, but for all intents and purposes is definitely the target of the investigative crosshairs.
The Microsaccade Moment
Microsaccades are tiny involuntary movements of the eye generally caused by visual fixation. The result on visual perception can cause the beholder to question if they are “really seeing what they are seeing.”
I had a few of those yesterday while analyzing footage of the day’s events in conjunction with known facts of this case.
They Are:
The MCSO guard detail dispatched at the courthouse assigned to Terri and counsel et al for a family court appearance. I have spoken with a few local family lawyers who do not wish to be identified, with a combined 26 years of practice. None have ever seen this practice in a similar matter in Multnomah County. Specifically, the deputies went inside the actual hearing and waited to escort the trio out the back.
During the hearing, there was not a syllable mentioned about the driving force behind the request for expedition of the case in the first place. The very substantive weight that was used to secure an emergency custody and restraining order, which remains uncontested to date: The Alleged Murder for Hire Plot. Why wouldn’t a family lawyer looking to abate the divorce case strike at the very merits on which the plaintiff’s arguments are based? The plaintiff in this case uses an almost one year old mfh plot allegation, which was not carried out, and no person has been declared a suspect or arrested, to control every filing to date and counsel does not refute the claims therein? What possible reason could that be?
A recent interview with Terri Horman’s son James, in which he states that his Mother cannot have a computer, cell phone, or leave her parents home in Roseburg.
Blink Analysis Editorial: Sealed Criminal Indictment OR Civil Commitment?
A Civil commitment, which would have had to been voluntary, such as a concern for Ms. Horman injuring herself, or some sort of dependency is a possibility, but a highly unlikely one considering she appeared in court yesterday.
Strictly my opinion of course, but based on my microsaccades, I think it is entirely possible that Terri Horman is under a pre-arrest indictment in the matter of the alleged murder for hire plot, or some derivative thereof.
It would certainly be unlikely that she could have been booked and granted bail without a leak, but a sealed indictment, which may or may not include a sealed arrest warrant, would follow Oregon’s propensity to use the grand jury as a form of “preliminary hearing.” In light of the fact that there is an ongoing criminal investigation into Kyron’s disappearance involving Federal, county and State investigative assets, it would be entirely appropriate.
The public would not know until such time as the indictment and any potentially attached writs are unsealed. Throw in the possibility there is always the chance that Clackamas County may be the charging county for such an offense and not Multnomah.
In which case, this is about to get very interesting. Recall MCSO chief Dan Staton saying Clackamas County Major Crimes Team is involved in the case? That would suggest at least part of a crime has been established in their jurisdiction. Rudy Sanchez resides in Clackamas County.
Clackamas County District Attorney John Foote and Criminal defense attorney Stephen Houze are well acquainted. You might say that Foote owes his very job to Houze in a way-
John Foote lost as the incumbent DA in 1996 to his own deputy district attorney Terese “Terry” Gustafson. Terry was in the middle of fighting an Oregon Bar complaint at the time which cleared her name just days before the inauguration.
The embattled DA did not take long to be the subject of more ethics violations including felony perjury charges for lying to a circuit judge about releasing the file of a juvenile that was ordered to be destroyed. Gustafson was disbarred.
Who filed the Bar complaint who also represented the accused boy who was subsequently acquitted?
Who was the prosecuting attorney for the Oregon Bar?
Stephen Houze.
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There has been speculation that Terri got caught up in or found out about something criminal and really big (and already being investigated by LE) that is making her fearful and keeping her quiet. Blink has indicated something was going on and that Anselmo is connected to the investigation somehow. After questions and speculations that maybe Anselmo was at the school or was the person Kyron was transferred to, or that he somehow helped Rudy interrupt and alter any plan Terri had, Blink now says AS was unavailable on June 4th.
I would go as far as to say relative the overall investigative efforts of Kyron’s disappearance.
B
AS could NOT have snatched Kyron. I am not saying he is not involved with RS, but he could not have.
B
We’ve tried to understand what might motivate Terri, and then DeDe. We’ve tried to fill in huge gaps in timelines and movements when we don’t have enough facts, but that doesn’t seem to lead us to new facts, just more speculation because no one says you’re getting “hot” or “cold”.
Let’s simply agree that Terri took Kyron to school and then she left no later than 9 AM. Kyron left, with or without Terri, in an unknown condition in a vehicle no later than 10:30 AM. Let’s agree that Anselmo was not in the picture on June 4th at all. Can anybody absolutely, positively pin down more than that directly relating to Kyron?
It seems to me that given the right knowledge and a little forethought, anyone at the school with a vehicle could have fit in the timeline of what took place and be responsible for Kyron’s disappearance. However, that possibility can be narrowed down quite a bit according to the school’s and Kyron’s expectations and probable reactions.
Could Kyron have been the random choice of a criminal hanging around a science fair waiting to grab a child when the opportunity arose? (would a jury think so?)
I think that only works if you suspect a local sex offender acting on his own and so far LE seems to say no to that – and it would have to be an alignment of the stars sort of opportunity to work this well.
How would someone involved in an investigation of criminal activity (either on the criminal side or the investigative side) use or try to intimidate Terri in a way that would bring harm to Kyron, and why?
The number one reason why (according to articles like this one: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/03/02/1092243/mexican-gangs-like-us-forests.html) organized gangs kidnap, kill, or intimidate family members is to keep the key person(s) doing what they want them to do, doing it where they want them to do it, and doing it without talking to LE – and if they don’t comply, they, too, can be eliminated because there are a lot more people available to use where that one came from (such as those brought in to guard growing operations in national forests).
Even if Terri were intentionally participating in something illegal herself, she wouldn’t be likely to know anything more about her “colleagues” than her closest contact (lower levels in any organization are easily replaceable), and she certainly wouldn’t have a unique, indispensable role – unless she had control of something like a LOT of money, or the “client list” for gambling, prostitution, porn internet sales, etc.
I can’t see Terri selling drugs out of her diaper bag or carrying a little black book of some kind to the gym and getting into this much trouble because of it. But I can see Terri being involved with something illegal through the internet, finding out something about someone she knew (maybe she looked at porn of some kind and saw someone she recognized), and trying to use that to get a “favor” done (like the MFH again without paying), and suddenly attracting a lot of attention to herself. Perhaps the someone she found out about is a well known figure who was also being watched by LE, along with his connections (Anselmo?). Someone with Terri’s personality might not recognize the risks she was taking – somebody has always bailed her out before.
I won’t buy the story that Kyron was taken only to keep her quiet or that Kiara is being threatened with harm for the same reason. Terri is too unpredictable and (as shown by her 911 calls) just as likely to decide to tell what she knows someday as not – either to LE or in her book deal, or to a cellmate. No one could or would monitor her for years to come just to keep up the threats. The logical thing for a criminal to do would be to get rid of HER, not Kyron or anyone else.
The logical thing for LE to do would be to try to get enough from their other ongoing investigation plus her with a witness deal, to put a number of people behind bars. Getting her to be a witness would probably require a lot of pressure. LE would not be intimidated into ending an investigation, even if Kyron were held somewhere for that purpose. Where there is child porn, there is money, money laundering, and there are drugs. Perhaps Rudy has become the negotiator.
I’m sorry, but if I were following what appears to be the way organized crime conducts business, I can only think of these reasons to take Kyron rather than get rid of Terri herself –
1 – for use and/or sale because that’s the business I’m in and she either asked me to, or gave me enough information to be able to carry it out – she owed me something (debt or evidence of her loyalty)
2 – to prove to LE that I mean business about halting an undercover investigation most likely into child porn and drugs or something closely related (with the threat of more kids disappearing). Terri’s “help” was a mistake on her part, but just a “lucky” opportunity for me.
3 – if I wanted to put a halt to a investigation (of me) to buy time, I might try to have someone hide and hold Kyron – not for ransom money, but to keep LE at bay until I could make a satisfactory deal or escape prosecution. Since LE already knows about me, I might be willing to return Kyron if the circumstances are right and I’m not charged with kidnapping.
So far, that’s how I see the “other side of the coin.”
Has anyone read the alternate theory blog.
*not posting link*
I can’t help but wonder who is the writer? Could it be a close friend of TH? MOO
Sorry to post twice so close together. I thought it was interesting what agencies make up the child porn task force, especially ICE and DOJ.
http://www.oregonlive.com/tualatin/index.ssf/2010/06/tualatin_mayors_roommate_arrested_on_child_pornography_charges.html
snips>
TUALATIN — A child-pornography investigation that began 18 months ago with the search of Tualatin Mayor Lou Ogden’s home turned into a criminal case Tuesday as authorities arrested Ogden’s housemate on 20 felony charges tied to possession of child pornography.
The “Intercept” task force includes three detectives from sheriff’s offices in Washington, Clackamas and Multnomah counties and one district attorney from Multnomah County. Officials from Oregon Department of Justice and U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement also contribute to the task force.
Formed in August 2007, the intercept task force investigates child exploitation cases involving pornography and Internet trolling. Through 2009, detectives launched 285 investigations and served 106 search warrants, said Sgt. Jeff Smith, a Clackamas County detective and the task force supervisor.
wow Mockingbird, that post was very thought provoking. you present many valid points. All of us here have turned things over and over, dissecting this or that, and you’re so right. Truly, what do we know in this case?? that’s one reason it’s so maddening..
I looked up Rudy Sanchez AKA Rudy Estrada. Is that right? Anyone? That was new to me, but maybe not to some. And maybe it’s wrong all together? I’m no super-sleuth sorry
I am one of the few who believe she planned the whole thing. Here is my humble opinion on Terri’s motive ~ She was unnaturally obsessed with Kyron from day one. She has lied extensively about how she came into their lives & when she began interacting with Kyron. She believed that she had replaced his birth mother in all ways. Then Desiree came back into their lives & Kyron developed his natural bond with her. Mom says he recently began to talk about leaving Terri & Kaine to live with her. When that came to light & Terri realized that all the time she put in could not make him love her more, her obsession turned to hatred toward Kyron & both his parents. Not normal, I know, but she’s not normal.
I think she had a plan that included Kyron being found that very day, probably in the area near the school with the odd sightings of the white truck. Maybe she planned to “find” him herself & be the hero, putting herself back on top.
I’m thinking he was sedated, but something went wrong & everything changed. If she opens her mouth now, there will be no doubt that she is responsible. As much as she once loved Kyron, she loves herself more, she is in self preservation mode & everyone else be damned. Again, my personal theory.
I understood it was 49 state
Regarding the alternate theory blog:
Thanks Blink!
@aibohphobia says: September 4, 2010 at 4:52 pm
“I appreciate your points, I was just trying to convey the fact (see link I posted above)that she is no longer wearing the wedding ring that Kaine gave her on their wedding day, and she also wasn’t wearing it earlier in the investigation.”
I have known many a married person who could not afford the ring that s/he wanted until later in the marriage. Such was the case with my parents.
I personally don’t wear a wedding ring, as I’m allergic to certain metals (other than platinum), and have eczema that flares up. Despite this, my husband continues to come home every night, and he’s still there when I wake up in the morning. As much as I’d like to get out of doing the laundry, the guy just won’t leave! LOL…
Now, if I could get him to buy me a platinum wedding ring, I’d wear it. He’s cheap. I’m not. So, there you go.
I am sorry that is incorrect
I dont know
As Blink has said she believes this to be a ” sexual motivation’ crime,
I wondered what defined as such…
When you look @ site, you can click on Sex Offense Elements, definitions etc.
These are definitions from a Seattle Defense Attorney website:
Sex Offese Definitions:
“Sex offense” means:
“Sexual motivation” means that one of the purposes for which the defendant committed the crime was for the purpose of his or her sexual gratification. RCW 9.94A.030 (47)
(a) (i) A felony that is a violation of chapter 9A.44 RCW (Rape First, Second and Third degrees; Rape of a Child First, Second and Third degrees; Child Molestation First, Second and Third Degrees; Sexual misconduct with a minor First Degree; (Sexual Misconduct with a minor Second Degree under RCW 9A.44.130 (10)); Indecent Liberties; Sexually violating human remains; Voyeurism, Criminal trespass against children; Failure to Register as a Sex Offender) other than RCW 9A.44.130(12) (Failure to register as kidnapper; Failure to Register as a Sex Offender for Misdemeanor sex offense);
(ii) A violation of RCW 9A.64.020 (Incest);
(iii) A felony that is a violation of chapter 9.68A RCW (Sexual Exploitation of a Minor; Possession of Depictions of Minors engaged in sexually explicit conduct; Dealing in Depictions of Minors engaged in sexually explicit conduct; Communicating with a Minor for Immoral Purposes (Misdemeanor CMIP also a sex offense under RCW 9A.44.130 (10)); Commercial sexual abuse of a Minor; Promoting Commercial Sexual abuse of a minor; Promoting travel for commercial sexual abuse of a minor;) other than RCW 9.68A.080 (reporting of depictions of minors engaged in sexually explicit conduct); or
(iv) A felony that is, under chapter 9A.28 RCW, a criminal attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy to commit such crimes;
“Sexual contact” means any touching of the sexual or other intimate parts of a person done for the purpose of gratifying sexual desire of either party or a third party. RCW 9A.44.010 (2)
(b) Any conviction for a felony offense in effect at any time prior to July 1, 1976, that is comparable to a felony classified as a sex offense in (a) of this subsection;
“Abuse of a supervisory position” means: (a) To use a direct or indirect threat or promise to exercise authority to the detriment or benefit of a minor; or (b) To exploit a significant relationship in order to obtain the consent of a minor.RCW 9A.44.010 (9)
(c) A felony with a finding of sexual motivation under RCW 9.94A.835 or 13.40.135; or
(d) Any federal or out-of-state conviction for an offense that under the laws of this state would be a felony classified as a sex offense under (a) of this subsection. RCW 9.94A.030 (46)
(v) Any gross misdemeanor that is, under chapter 9A.28 RCW, a criminal attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy to commit an offense that is classified as a sex offense under RCW 9.94A.030 or this subsection. RCW 9A.44.130 (10)
“Significant relationship” means a situation in which the perpetrator is:(a) A person who undertakes the responsibility, professionally or voluntarily, to provide education, health, welfare, or organized recreational activities principally for minors;(b) A person who in the course of his or her employment supervises minors; or (c) A person who provides welfare, health or residential assistance, personal care, or organized recreational activities to frail elders or vulnerable adults, including a provider, employee, temporary employee, volunteer, or independent contractor who supplies services to long-term care facilities licensed or required to be licensed under chapter 18.20, 18.51, 72.36, or 70.128 RCW, and home health, hospice, or home care agencies licensed or required to be licensed under chapter 70.127 RCW, but not including a consensual sexual partner. RCW 9A.44.010 (8)
“Forcible compulsion” means physical force which overcomes resistance, or a threat, express or implied, that places a person in fear of death or physical injury to herself or himself or another person, or in fear that she or he or another person will be kidnapped.RCW 9A.44.010 (6)
“Predatory” means: (a) The perpetrator of the crime was a stranger to the victim, as defined in this section; (b) the perpetrator established or promoted a relationship with the victim prior to the offense and the victimization of the victim was a significant reason the perpetrator established or promoted the relationship; or (c) the perpetrator was: (i) A teacher, counselor, volunteer, or other person in authority in any public or private school and the victim was a student of the school under his or her authority or supervision. For purposes of this subsection, “school” does not include home-based instruction as defined in RCW 28A.225.010; (ii) a coach, trainer, volunteer, or other person in authority in any recreational activity and the victim was a participant in the activity under his or her authority or supervision; or (iii) a pastor, elder, volunteer, or other person in authority in any church or religious organization, and the victim was a member or participant of the organization under his or her authority. RCW 9.94A.030 (39)
http://www.rhodesmeryhew.com/
Dee says:
September 4, 2010 at 3:49 am
Dee- thanks for the insight -is always nice to get a “gut reaction” from someone not as familiar with the details as all of us who ‘blog’ and salkt the bogs about the case. Many have said -”follow the money trail…” But, to me seems that KH is not wealthy enough to even justify felony murder, kidnapping, etc. over. They have a home they bought 4 years ago for 360K, which has surely (like most of us) dipped in value over the past couple of years, and also most likely on a mortgage. If KH made roughly 125 to 150K a year (just guessing), his LI would perhaps, under Intel bennies be roughly 1 to 2.5 times the annual, so let’s say generously that the LI would be 500K, depending on which options he chose at the time. So in short, the LI would perhaps pay off the house, but not leave that much left over…? I mean, certainly not the like of black widows who marry and murder for millions…? I don’t know, just seems kinda out there…on the other hand, someone like her, being born and raised middle class, may just think that a few hundred grand was worth it. But I can say with some confidence that a0 she did not marry him for his money, and b) if she thought he was worth more to her dead, then there is indeed a greater underlying motive… jmo.
Mockingbird
You ask if Ky could’ve been the random choice of a SO June 4 and I do believe so. If it does happen to be true that TH saw Ky go off in his group with an unknown male chaperone that was not registed at the school that day then by all means it could happen! This theory is just as good as the rest of all the unconfirmed stuff floating around. I just hope, true or not, that is was investigated by LE. You realize that someone familiar with the school would know it was a perfect target to grab a kid. No security, no cameras, and a fair going on advertised on sign by road. This person could’ve worked with a crew, subcontracted so background would not be reviewed, as maintenance, lawn care, you name it.
beejay says:
September 4, 2010 at 8:07 am
I’m a pretty evidence-based thinker, who sometimes drifts. I haven’t plugged much of the “intel” about TH into my thinking because I don’t trust the “sources”. That includes: whatever may/may not have been said about the doctor’s appointment.
Clarification: When I say I don’t think TH was responsible, I mean directly. I don’t think she planned, participated in, or directed anyone to snatch Ky. If she was running with the wrong crowd and that in any way put Ky in harm’s way, then I believe she was MORALLY “responsible”. So, legally vs. morally–2 diff. things. I separate them out in my own thinking.
———————————
nice insight. I try to focus on the details of data points… but for the life of me, cannot see it in any other light than that she herself directly and with intent, caused the disappearance. I really have a hard time with it when people say she, “got mixed up wtiht he wrong crowd…” I mean, how does that happen exactly? She is an educated mother of 3 kids, married to a professional, involved in the school community and the “gym” community of other overweight moms seeking to get in shape… and seemingly living in suburban middle class bliss. So she liked to drink wat one point… does not translate to a major cartel! How does the mother of a toddler get mixed up in other huge messed up deviant, dangerous crowds?
Any ideas? You all prolly think I am totally naive… oh well. I just don’t get it, and lean toward s simple emotional revenge type of scenario…
@TBZ says: September 4, 2010 at 11:12 pm
“Has anyone read the alternate theory blog.”
@ Blink says: “*not posting link*”
@TBZ says: “I can’t help but wonder who is the writer? Could it be a close friend of TH? MOO”
Maybe it’s just me, but that site is so over the top, it almost seems like parody. It’s so mean-spirited (and inaccurate), it harms the very person it purports to defend (Terri).
Total wild guess here, but there’s something about that blog that is personal, and it seems that whomever churns out that kind of dreck would have to be Terri or one of her friends.
It could also be one of the many, many people who although not personally involved in the investigation, are trying to stir up trouble and inject themselves into the investigation.
What’s sad is that blogs like Alternate Theory distract from the only thing that matters: Kyron is missing, and he needs to come home now.
If the author of that blog has something to offer that would help bring Kyron home, fine.
Otherwise, perhaps she should consider having her pity party by herself, because all she is doing is encouraging people not to help bring Kyron home.
Satori says:
September 4, 2010 at 1:06 am
Sorry if I seem a bit irritated with my response to you. You are indeed correct in saying that we know very little as a fact. What we know are tidbits of info from LE, KH, Dy and media, including some “witness” testimony…some of which is contradictory.
Your question was, “When TH seemingly left Kyron in the hallway, was Kyron with the chaperon of 6 childeren at that time? It is unclear to me. IIRC, didn’t Kyron’s chaperon notice that one of his/her childeren were missing from the group of 6? I am very unclar about what has become of this information.”
I do not believe that you are recalling correctly that a chaperon noticed him missing at any time, but that TP stated that when HE noticed Ky missing, that the teacher was not concerned.
Of the few details that I have observed, Tanner stated that he told the ‘sub’ that Kyron was not present when she was regrouping/headcounting with her small group of 5 or 6 AFTER they had spent time touring projects, and BEFORE children went to their classroom to take roll-call at 10a. The usual PPS class bell rang at 8:45a, at which time parents were expected to leave, then break into the smaller groups of 5 or so kids to tour projects. This means that it was after 8:45a, AND EVEN after an hour or so of touring projects, that Tanner finally noted him missing. This does not make sense. I bring up 2 points: 1) If Tanner’s recollection was valid, then why did he not assert that he spent an hour touring projects with Ky, who then, just prior to roll-call simply vanished? As well, if you were an adult ‘sub’ [parent/volunteer] that day, you would have been FULLY aware of spending an hour with 5 children – you would learn very quickly each of their names as you proceed to interact over one hour of touring. And, you might especially note one scientifically interested child named Kyron.
Now, to complicate matters, TH herself made conflicting statements that he was, in her eyes, 1) Kyron was walking towards class as I waved goodbye at 8:45, and b) that as I left, he was in the safe hands, I though of a male chaperon, along with 2 girls.
So you see the conflict on many levels. Tanner stated he was in Kyron’s group. Tanner stated the chaperon was female. Terri state it was a male… As you see, we have conflicting testimonies here, and will have to wait and see. I can guarantee you that LE has fully vetted Tanner, the “sub”, and perhaps Terri too. They know, we don’t.
I’ve lost my train of thought -but hope I answered your questions. Cannot provide links, cuz you are indeed correct that info seems to vanish…The best I can offer is a reference to a reference to a KOIN6 article that no longer exists…
http://www.cafemom.com/group/416/forums/read/11585242/Missing_Oregon_boy_Kyron_Horman_Updated
34.S says:
September 4, 2010 at 4:54 pm
“Hi Grace, does your DH every say WHY he thinks there have been so few facts revealed? I’d love to hear his take on that one…”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi S, to answer your question about why the LE are so tight-lipped about what evidence or witnesses they have, I will re-post what I posted a bit earlier:
“If LE agencies have any interest at all in preserving the integrity of their evidence (and, believe me, they do), these agencies do not reveal to the public information they collect in the course of an ongoing investigation. That being said, leaks do happen from time to time.”
Also, rmack’s post further explains whay LE keeps their cards close to their vest during an investigation. Thanks, rmack!
47.rmack says:
September 4, 2010 at 9:29 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, my DH is the strong and silent type especially when it comes to speculating on cases such as this. When we first heard about Kyron, he and all our LE friends were interested to see if all of Kyron’s immediate family members would be cleared as POI.
For what it’s worth, our LE friends almost immediately suspected TH may have been involved in the disappearance. I was convinced this was a stranger abduction likely committed by a local sexual predator who knew the layout of the school intimately, and either knew the Hormans or simply targeted Kyron. I hope LE is still investigating that possibility. The alleged MFH plot was what caused me to wonder if TH is involved.
The bottom line: We have so few facts, it is really IMPOSSIBLE to know what happened that fateful day. My DH and LE friends do believe that there are likely several parallel investigations going on that may ultimately help solve this heartwrenching case.
Blink, I was curious as to whether you’ve been asked to limit your input in this case?
In all cases we cover here, my coverage and commentary are subject to countless judgement calls.
B
Kaine and Desiree have stated they believe Kyron was kidnapped. They alluded to this awhile back, but on their latest interview said so in no uncertain terms.
Then, why do they not beg and plead to whomever they believe has Kyron stashed that he be returned? I’ve watched other parents of abducted children beg and beg for the return of their child. Desire and Kaine usually add a message to Kyron that they are coming to get him and will bring them home, but other than that, Desiree focuses on imploring Terri and associates to come forward with information.
But, they do not ask the stasher(s) or abductor(s) to return Kyron. Is this only odd to me?
I do not recall them ever using the verbiage that Kyron was kidnapped. I have heard them state they believe Terri planned what happened to Kyron, and that they believe he is stashed somewhere with no clue where- Would you agree that is a fair assessment of their position on the matter?
B
Jackie and puzzled… Good to hear from u again! I’ve been quiet as well lately, right now I’m in the hospital, but even before that I’ve found I just didn’t seem to have anything to add to the conversation. I still read daily and keep up and if push comes to shove I’ll share some crime stats of the drug cartel activity I find. I just had my birthday the day I landed in the hospital and told my family all I wanted was for this little guy to be found. I got “here” instead! Well again glad to see you, look forward to your posts.
Thoughts and prayers are with kyron, his brothers and sister
Please get well cbickel
B
@Jackie B
good to hear you are still with us and OK
holding for more info
seems like a good idea
I am kind of treading water:)
@MockingbirdSings:
yes, yes, I’m following you. Can you go with another possibility–that TH did get involved (probably unbeknownst to her) with gang members. But that Ky’s disappearance had nothing to do with that directly? That it was simply an opportunistic independent act of someone who came to know Ky and took advantage of a situation to grab him for what B. says is a sexually motivated crime? We have no evidence to rule out this scenario do we?
One problem I have with one of your possibilities: when have you known federal LE to stop an ongoing investigation into organized crime because a low level functionary took some threatening action?
IMHO, we might have (myself included, of course) gotten carried away with a theories that encompass too high a level after B. mentioned 30,000 feet.
Could also be non-organized crime, since production and distribution of child porn has become an independent, cottage industry.
Blink said on 8/21/10 – We agree on Terri being the catalyst, but I am not at all in the zipcode of her orchestrating this at this time.
B
On 9/3 I asked Blink: Can you tell me if you are in a different zip code now?
Same zip and sorry, I have commented on the AS/RS issue to the extent I am willing at this time.
B
I just don’t get it. Try as I might I can’t find anything that helps me on this. I can’t get around TH having a part in the abduction of Ky. Maybe it means that she helped plan it and then it went all wrong and she lost control of the situation? I’m no detective, arm chair or otherwise. I’m completely stumped and I admit it.
MockingbirdSings says:
September 4, 2010 at 10:37 pm
MockingbirdSings, you are just so smart, thank you for posting this information and your ideas.
Hats off to so many others here that put in so much time and effort. All of you make the world a better place! I remain heart broken over Kyron and still cry every day for him. I’m going to keep praying for him and those that love him. I hope justice is served on his behalf and soon.
Observant says:
September 4, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Regarding my posts yesterday which I included above, I said that these are video clips of MC at the vigil. Can someone verify for me that it is indeed MC at -0:43 and -0:53? TIA!
Observant, YES, that is MC.
@Cbickel … You’re on the list; the good wish list!
You’re circumstance is a reminder that for us (the bloggers) seasons change and our lives move on … sadly DY and KH are stuck at June 4th in a ground hog day kind of way.
Just a thought .. with Kyron’s birthday coming up this week and baby Kitty’s in just a few months .. one would think (hope ??) that these dates would shake something loose from TH.
Madilu says:
So in short, the LI would perhaps pay off the house, but not leave that much left over…?
—-
Just thinking…maybe he had an inurance policy that paid off the mortgage at his death?
Madily said “Your question was, “When TH seemingly left Kyron in the hallway, was Kyron with the chaperon of 6 childeren at that time? It is unclear to me. IIRC, didn’t Kyron’s chaperon notice that one of his/her childeren were missing from the group of 6? I am very unclar about what has become of this information.””
The chaperoned groups were only dispatched after the bell at 8:45. Probably a bit later assuming the teacher did addressed the class first. Given that TMH claims she left at 8:45 (and more likely earlier), she can not have seen this.
@Idahogal says: I just don’t get it. Try as I might I can’t find anything that helps me on this. I can’t get around TH having a part in the abduction of Ky. Maybe it means that she helped plan it and then it went all wrong and she lost control of the situation?
~~~~~
I get exactly what you are saying. In the beginning, I just did not see the evidence (or the theories) that TH was responsible … but now, I can’t find a way around it. I read with great interest, I must say, the level of research that others have done… but add it all up and we still only know for sure that TH was the last person to see KY and some male, female, maybe a monkey, was seen in/near or around a white truck.
I’m gonna stick to watching “I’m Smarter Than A 5th Grader” because sometimes … I am.
2.TBZ says:
September 4, 2010 at 11:12 pm
Has anyone read the alternate theory blog.
*not posting link*
I can’t help but wonder who is the writer? Could it be a close friend of TH? MOO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’ve read some of it. The writer has such anger and contempt for Kaine that I actually felt uncomfortable as I read the posts. IMHO, it appears to be written by someone who was previously intimately involved with him. It just seems like too much “overkill” (if you will) to just be one of TH’s devoted friends. Moooooo.
beejay says:
September 5, 2010 at 8:14 am
@MockingbirdSings:
yes, yes, I’m following you. Can you go with another possibility–that TH did get involved (probably unbeknownst to her) with gang members. But that Ky’s disappearance had nothing to do with that directly? That it was simply an opportunistic independent act of someone who came to know Ky and took advantage of a situation to grab him for what B. says is a sexually motivated crime? We have no evidence to rule out this scenario do we?
One problem I have with one of your possibilities: when have you known federal LE to stop an ongoing investigation into organized crime because a low level functionary took some threatening action?
IMHO, we might have (myself included, of course) gotten carried away with a theories that encompass too high a level after B. mentioned 30,000 feet.
Could also be non-organized crime, since production and distribution of child porn has become an independent, cottage industry.
————————–
Thanks, Beejay. In case I didn’t explain well enough – I was thinking that if there were a relationship between Terri and some criminal or criminal activity that resulted in Kyron’s disappearance, I would consider that a “marriage” and look at how the “couple” got together. I am not looking for ways to establish Terri’s innocence except for any connection to a jury thinking there is reasonable doubt. I thought I was too focused on Terri and wanted to see how the other half of the “marriage” would view her and why. When I don’t have enough facts, I automatically start eliminating the “can’t be’s”. I’m personally still open to everything!
So – Terri could have been involved with gang members knowingly or otherwise, but gang members are pretty guarded about who and how they connect with in that respect. An individual gang member might have found that she was vulnerable to taking risks, sexting, feeding her ego, just letting her vent, or the possibility of getting “easy” money and then used that in some way to involve her in a crime related to gang activity or to get information to allow them to take Kyron. It seems she didn’t have any problem sharing how she felt about Kaine to lots of people – if you wanted information, it probably wouldn’t be too hard to get her to talk about Kyron or anything else if you encouraged her to. This could also be true with an individual acting alone.
I don’t believe LE has stopped an investigation of any kind – whether anyone was threatened or not. (Sorry if I gave that impression.) They may have changed direction, expanded to include more agencies, or had an undercover agent’s cover be compromised in some way that would make communication more difficult. I just meant that could have been one possible motive for taking Kyron – if the person thought that would work. It would explain why LE continued to indirectly say Kyron could still be alive somewhere (by saying they couldn’t prove he was not alive) and why Terri stopped talking if she knew that right away. Not saying “is”, just saying “could be”. Doesn’t make her “not guilty” either.
I try not to “lean” one way or the other when I’m thinking of all the possibilities that I can – if I lean too hard, I fall over and miss something. (chuckle)
Cbickel, hope you get well soon. And belated happy birthday-I hope you still got cake.
Malty, love your verse. Pls kiss the maltese for me. In the past year we rescued a number of maltese and bichons-filthy, sleeping outside in freezing cold, and still sweet dogs.
Shelbar, I commented to you on the previous post, but think it got lost in the 2,000 others so again, thanks for thinking of me. In August my hard drive died and I moved cross-country, so I could read but not post and then it seemed to me that holding pattern was best.
Mockingbird: nicely done, logically presented.
@ Madilu,
I remember now. It was Tanner Pumala who claimed that the “substitute,” which appears to me to mean a chaperon, first noticed Kyron missing after a head count.
The Hinky Meter has a 6/21/10 update, which discusses this matter under “Things that continue to deserve consideration.” I knew I read this somewhere. And I also saw other sites discussing it as well. I think it was discussed on BOC a time or two.
Madilu says:
September 5, 2010 at 1:38 am
@MockingbirdSings: thanks for elaborating. I’m thinking about all that you said. Chewing the cud for now.
**********************
@melissab: You said, replying to Mockingbird, “You ask if Ky could’ve been the random choice of a SO June 4 and I do believe so.”
___________
Of course, you’re right; that’s yet another thing that LE said (“cannot rule it out” referring to a random abduction, I believe) and hasn’t released a contradictory statement about yet. Doesn’t mean they haven’t ruled it out. So, I won’t either.
cbickel: I hope you are feeling better soon!
The following concerns MockingbirdSing’s suggestion to stick to what we know. It’s all been presented before except, I think, my conclusion.
Jackie Bauer
says:
September 4, 2010 at 12:22 pm
“Seamus (and I’m paraphrasing) often states how there’s usually some part of the truth in the liar’s statement. Maybe TH was telling part of the truth–Ky was last seen with 2 girls (TH? DDS? Kiara, though hard to believe she was there) and an unidentified male (a LS perhaps?) Just a thought. Maybe that was THs way of telling something resembling the truth.”
Along the same lines: Terri says she was buying meds for Kitty, but maybe the meds were for Kyron. Terri says she was driving around trying to get Kitty to sleep, but maybe she was driving around trying to get Kyron to fall asleep.
“I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer 7 miles away at 9:12am. I went to another FM looking for meds for Kitty they didn’t have at the first FM. Then I was trying to get Kitty to sleep in the truck for a few minutes, but no go, so off to the gym at 11:20. Out at 12:20. Home at 12:45. Kaine home at 2. Bus at 3:30. That was my day – they keep asking me. Now on my 5th interview with them …”
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html
An earlier timeline came out with Terri running errands from 8:45 to 10:10, driving country roads from 10:10 to 11:39 when she checked into the gym.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/99151549.html
Back to the most recent press conference of August 11. LE wants to find witnesses who saw the truck at the school: 8:15 – 8:45, at Cornelius Pass Freddy’s – 9:00 and Walker Road Freddy’s – 10:00. Then Springville Road, Skyline Road between Springville and Newberry, including Germantown and Old Germantown, between 10:15 and 10:45.
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/081110_PressConferenceFlier.pdf
So an overlap of the three timelines looks like this:
8:15 – 8:45 Science Fair – all timelines agree
approx. 9:00 Cornelius Pass Fred Meyer – all timelines agree + receipt
approx. 10:00 Walker Road Fred Meyer – all timelines agree + Andrea Leckey witness account
10:15 – 10:45 Driving Country Roads – Terri and KATU source outline; Springville to Newberry along Skyline, and near Dede’s work – LE
“but no go, so off to the gym at 11:20″ – Terri’s email
11:39 Checked into Beaverton 24 Hour Fitness – KATU source outline
The part that stands out to me is “but no go, so off to the gym at 11:20″. Sounds to me like she stopped whatever she was doing at 11:20 to go to the gym and arrived 19 minutes later. Maybe it was looking or waiting for someone who took Kyron. Or, maybe she was handing him off to someone else. What if she had an appointment with her workout partner and had to drop whatever she was doing when she realized it was 11:20?
Regardless, if Terri herself did something to Kyron and left him somewhere, he is probably within 20 minutes drive-time of that 24 hour fitness. MOO
rmack says:
I am one of the few who believe she planned the whole thing.
———————————
I agree. In my opinion there are too many instances that point directly to Terri’s meticulous plan to disappear both Kaine and Kyron. It appears she was tired of family responsibilities and wanted to move on with Kiara only.
1. Terri complained to “anyone who would listen” about Kaine.
2. MFH plot.
3. Major change in Terri’s personality.
4. Sent James away because she couldn’t deal with him anymore.
5. Kyron had been merely an afterthought on Terri’s FB postings/pictures. Yet the day he disappeared, his picture from the Science Fair became front-and-center in importance.
6. TH told others at Skyline about Kyron having “mini seizures” and the supposed symptoms of “wandering” off and spacing out, before he even saw a doctor.
7. Instead of putting Kyron safely in the hands of an adult (despite his supposed wandering off and spacing out issues) she left him alone at the school.
8. The doctor appointment issue with the teacher.
9. Total lack for Kyron after his disappearance.
I agree with Blink that Kyron probably did not physically leave the school with Terri. She had help, and it probably goes without saying that anyone who would involve themselves in a plot involving a child is probably not the most upstanding citizen. However, the theory that TH sent Kyron away to protect him from a major criminal element (but didn’t do the same for her two children) doesn’t ring true to me.
What also doesn’t personally ring true is that fear of a criminal element is the reason for Terri’s silence. If TH and her children needed protection from a major criminal organization, it wouldn’t be announced to the world that TH is staying at her parents in Roseburg, that James is staying with his father and that Kaine and Kiara are back in their house. LE would be doing everything in their power to ensure the children were housed privately if that were the case, especially in light of Kyron’s disappearance.
It also doesn’t make sense that TH would show up publicly for a hearing she was not required to attend if there was fear for her life from a criminal cartel.
Of course, my opinion only.
Oops.
9. Should have been Total lack of concern for Kyron after his disappearance.
@Nancy S
I am so sorry that your Son experienced this. That is so abusive. Such a violation to a person’s freedom. I am very claustrophobic and that would include having freedom of movement hindered. I could see how that experience could create such a phobia. How do these people sleep at night?
NancyS says:
September 4, 2010 at 10:26 pm
@newsatfive says:
September 4, 2010 at 10:36 am
Gee, thanks for the history of qwest -irrelevant. The FBI absolutely would be able to provide some type of phone access for her is there was worry about tying up the horman phones. When you say “The fact is we don’t know when the friends bought the “bat phones,” and the story about it being the day Kyron went missing might just be law enforcement giving misinformation ”
Yes I agree is we really know no facts. Just what was reported. It was reported that the phones were purchased by the friends after KH moved out. = After June 26th. Whatever “story” you are talking about, vis a vis the phones were purchased on June 4th -I do not believe it, someone made it up -please provide link to set me straight.
For anyone who is wondering, yes AS still sits in federal prison in Oregon as of just now (although I don’t know how frequently BOP updates their prison locator).
http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/InmateFinderServlet?Transaction=NameSearch&needingMoreList=false&FirstName=Anselmo&Middle=&LastName=Sanchez-sanchez&Race=U&Sex=M&Age=&x=67&y=14
********
Could it have possibly been Rudy who Ky left with? Because with my fav candidate (AS) out of the picture per Blink, other than TH or her redhaired street gang, I’ve got:
1. stranger
2. someone Ky knew well enough to let them at least get close enough to him to grab him and silence him: Rudy?
3. same criteria as in my #2: another employee of Rudy’s who Ky knew?
4. same criteria as in my #2: one of the parents/other visitors, or school staff?
Who else, who else…
@ Satori says:
September 5, 2010 at 1:17 pm
re: @ Madilu, I remember now. It was Tanner Pumala who claimed that the “substitute,” which appears to me to mean a chaperon, first noticed Kyron missing after a head count.
****************************************
Or to a child it could mean ‘someone who is not my regular teacher’ & perhaps has filled in before for the regular teacher..
I do not recall them ever using the verbiage that Kyron was kidnapped. I have heard them state they believe Terri planned what happened to Kyron, and that they believe he is stashed somewhere with no clue where- Would you agree that is a fair assessment of their position on the matter?
B
Kaine nor Desiree used the verbiage, however the interviewer did, so it jumped out at me as it is not the usual verbiage of abduction, disappearance, etc. Obviously, I am so hungry for anything new I may be placing way too much importance on their answering the question without correcting the interviewer. I thought this could be significant.
http://www.kptv.com/kyron-horman/index.html
Video section on right hand side of page. The video is called “Raw Video: Fox 12′s One on One with Kyron’s Parents”
At 3:04 in the video, the interviewer asks, “Did she kidnap Kyron?” Desiree answers, “I don’t know if she personally did it herself, I believe she planned it for sure.” Interviewer then asks Kaine, “Do you believe she had help?” to which Kaine answers yes.
It is a fair assumption that Kyron did not leave himself, or with someone they designated, so in fact, there is at a minimum an example of custodial interference, the issue is dicey because if Kyron went with someone he in fact knew… And I have personally heard Kaine refer to “someone Kyron would have known” on several occasions. But as a parent, the child was flat out kidnapped, imo.
It is important to note that neither Desiree or Kaine believe Kyron left the school with Terri.
B
Not that person, but yes.
B
@ aibohphobia says:
September 4, 2010 at 5:52 pm
The fox news insider link you provided truly is junk. Mostly I know that it is junk cuz he says that DS “told a GJ on Friday” -well, she presented on a Monday, plus we would have no access to what she told the GJ -Harris Faulkner needs a new job, I’d say. Perhaps this is where the “rumor” started that phones were bought June 4th…crazy.
Thanks for the well wishes and the cake! Lol. One thing I can contribute but can not give the link because I’m on my stoopid smart phone and i don’t know how: the alternate theory board was the chick from Oregon live that went by 42nd state or some such thing. Evidently she has been there long before this happened to kyron. Don’t know if OL asked her to leave but she did start the alternate theoryblog. Thoughts and prayers are with kyron his brothers and sister
@ neighbor says:
September 5, 2010 at 11:39 am
I think you mis-quoted me above -I mean, I wrote that, (“your question was…” but it was not MY question, it was Satori’s, me just paraphrasing. My response to him/her was similar in nature to your response to [what you thought] was my question.
@neighbor says: September 5, 2010 at 11:39 am
@ Madily says: “Your question was, ‘When TH seemingly left Kyron in the hallway, was Kyron with the chaperon of 6 childeren at that time? It is unclear to me. IIRC, didn’t Kyron’s chaperon notice that one of his/her childeren were missing from the group of 6? I am very unclar about what has become of this information.’”
@neighbor says: “The chaperoned groups were only dispatched after the bell at 8:45. Probably a bit later assuming the teacher did addressed the class first. Given that TMH claims she left at 8:45 (and more likely earlier), she can not have seen this.”
It is my understanding that school was not scheduled to begin — nor were children required to report — until 10 am. Tanner told a news reporter (sorry no link, but was posted previously) that he saw Kyron at about 8:45 am, and that Kyron was headed to go see the “cool electric” science fair project.
However, there are early news articles that say Tanner said Kyron was missing when the substitute (chaperon?) was taking roll at 9:19 am:
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/Hormans-desk-mate-says-substitute-noticed-Horman/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx
There’s also the report that witnesses told the grand jury that Terri was hiding under the stairs at the time of the 8:45 am bell. (Given that the grand jury proceedings are confidential, this is either an unauthorized leak, or it is based on what a witness claims to have told the grand jury.)
So, if the “Terri was hiding” info is correct (purely speculating) was Kyron in another part of the school while Terri was hiding? Or was Terri hiding, waiting for Kyron to come down the stairs?
IMHO, one way this could all fit together is that Terri was hiding under the stairs, then walked Kyron to class late, as the group was headed out of the classroom. This explains why they said goodbye in the hallway.
It also sounds like the students were touring in smaller groups, i.e. with parents or chaperons. If true, then Kyron was with a group that was headed toward a different part of the school when he bumped into Tanner.
If Terri was hiding under the stairs when the kids were touring the school, she would have been seen by far more people, and that detail would have been the lead story from Day One.
@ Madilu says: September 5, 2010 at 1:57 pm
“Gee, thanks for the history of qwest -irrelevant. The FBI absolutely would be able to provide some type of phone access for her is there was worry about tying up the horman phones.”
Not to be argumentative, but where would the FBI obtain phone access if not from the phone company?
hey Jackie–glad you are backie!
newsatfive says:
September 5, 2010 at 3:26 pm
It is my understanding that school was not scheduled to begin — nor were children required to report — until 10 am. Tanner told a news reporter (sorry no link, but was posted previously) that he saw Kyron at about 8:45 am, and that Kyron was headed to go see the “cool electric” science fair project.
However, there are early news articles that say Tanner said Kyron was missing when the substitute (chaperon?) was taking roll at 9:19 am:
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/Hormans-desk-mate-says-substitute-noticed-Horman/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx
There’s also the report that witnesses told the grand jury that Terri was hiding under the stairs at the time of the 8:45 am bell. (Given that the grand jury proceedings are confidential, this is either an unauthorized leak, or it is based on what a witness claims to have told the grand jury.)
Per parents of the school, the bell rang at 8:45. The start of school was 8:45. Children were to go to their classrooms to be split into small groups to tour the science fair until 10:00.
I believe I read the “report” about a child seeing Terri hiding under the stairs came from the H Oakes garbage or another FB or MySpace poster. I have not read anything about it being reported by media as something testified to at the GJ. Could you provide the link? TIA.
newsatfive says:
September 5, 2010 at 3:34 pm
Not to be argumentative, but where would the FBI obtain phone access if not from the phone company?
Thousands of us abandoned qwest long ago and have phone service via cable and internet companies.
Let me clear this up, there is no place to “hide” under the stairs.
B
It is a fair assumption that Kyron did not leave himself, or with someone they designated, so in fact, there is at a minimum an example of custodial interference, the issue is dicey because if Kyron went with someone he in fact knew… And I have personally heard Kaine refer to “someone Kyron would have known” on several occasions. But as a parent, the child was flat out kidnapped, imo.
It is important to note that neither Desiree or Kaine believe Kyron left the school with Terri.
B
I hear you loud and clear and soundly agree.
newsatfive says:
September 5, 2010 at 3:34 pm
Me not to be argumentative either, but, and I was trying to remember why I even commented on this talk about phones –I believe it is that someone was saying that these “bat phones” were purchased by her and her friends on June 4th, because TH needed access to a phone, since they could be waiting for a ransom call on her phone(s). Here are the reasons I respectfully debate that notion:
1) The ‘search” didn’t even get going until after 5pm that day. So unlikely that in the first few hours she phoned her friends and said, “quick, run over to the Lloyd Center across town (~30 min away OW)and buy some phones under fake names cuz I need to keep my phone open for ransom call.
2) FBI has access to all kinds of sophisticated somputers and communications equipment (who needs Qwest? lol) -The “telephone” is pretty basic, be it cellular service or land line. If it were necessary for TH to contact someone that evening, and the ensuing days, then there are a number of ways to accomplish that -through computer, being patched through via radio, etc. LE would have could have even said, “here, use my phone to call your [mom or whomever] to keep your line open.
3)This is all a moot point though because the phones weren’t purchased until 3 weeks later… and I say this based on news reports, NOT including “fox insider,” which I do not believe to be credible reporting.
On a relative note, it is my opinion that there is nothing on the “up and up” whatsoever with anyone involved with purchasing prepaid phones under fake names. Since presently in the US you are not required to present ID at purchase, these types of phones are a favorite tool of criminals and terrorists -they use them a few times, then toss. What I find even more curious is that a second round of prepaids were purchased after the original set, and under the same fake name. It’s too hinky.
Someone else above mentioned that perhaps she needed a phone cuz KH could have shut off her cell phone service. Sure, could happen. But why would he want to sever communication with a person who he believes knows where his son is? Talk about cut off your nose to spite your face…? The reason I do not think that KH shut off her service is that her friends actually said to reporters that they bought these because they felt their conversations were not private, and to improve reception in the Nook area…