Kyron Horman Missing: Kaine And Terri Horman Face Off In Family Court
Portland, Or– Following one of the largest organized search weekends on Sauvie Island since Kyron Horman, 8,was abducted from Skyline School on June 4, his step-mother and father squared off in family court. Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, arrived with his attorney, Laura Rackner.
Kaine’s estranged wife Terri Horman, arrived with her criminal defense attorney; Stephen Houze and her family law attorney Peter Bunch.
Mr. Horman appeared in a crisp-white dress shirt and tie, and Ms. Moulton-Horman wore an eggplant hued suit with a long skirt.
Cameras were banned in the downtown Multnomah County courtroom; however, there were apparently several hidden “nests” as the tweets were flying real-time.
Peter Bunch, counsel to Terri Horman, is adamant his client is the subject of more than one criminal investigation:
“The state has the ability to obtain every single bit of information that is produced in this case and that is outside the bounds of what it could do were this proceeding not occurring,” Bunch said in court.
“It is fundamentally unfair for Kitty (Kiara) and for Miss Horman for me to be hamstrung in the divorce case for the information I have compared to what they have.” “The publicity that’s going on is not being driven by Ms. Horman, it’s being driven by Mr. Horman, when he tells national media there’s no doubt Ms. Horman is involved.” “If Mr. Horman is really interested in what‘s best for the child, then Mr. Horman wouldn’t object to any visitation by this child’s mother.” “We’ll concede, Mr. Horman can have the house, right now. Mrs. Horman is going to lose money…”
Terri Horman has not been declared a suspect in either Kyron Horman’s disappearance or the alleged murder for hire plot against Kaine Horman. She is however, seeking access to all of her 911 calls dating back to the DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS.
While this timeline coincides with accusations by Kaine Horman in his filings that Terri attempted to arrange to have him murdered, this is the first public revelation of that call. Bunch went on to say that Rackner and Kaine Horman, who are parties to case sensitive criminal investigation materials involving Terri, are at a supreme advantage to his client who should only be expected to plead her protections under the 5th amendment as a result.
After heated debate by those sides, we learned: Rudy Sanchez, the infamous landscaper/hitman for hire, has an alias, and has eluded service in the civil matter to date, although he appears to have cooperated. Bunch proclaims Sanchez is unlocatable as a result of MCSO unwillingness to share discovery of a witness in the civil case ( blink holds hands over eyes).
Michael Cook, a/k/a sexter king, waited all afternoon via subpoena by Rackner, but was only interviewed by the press. He states he cut ties with both Terri and Kaine days before he was outed for invasive scapular intrusions. No word on that healing process.
Terri Horman had her own personal black Friday this year.
She called 911 THE DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS. Regular contributors and readers of blinkoncrime.com doubt she had sale flyer questions.
Judge Keith Meisenheimer, was sensitive to Kaine and Kyron’s ‘round the clock nightmare, but feels some time may allow things to shake out. January 6, 2011 to be exact.
Following this afternoon’s legal melee, blinkoncrime.com Editor In Chief asked prominent Washington State Family Law Attorney, Lea Conner, to weigh in:
Although I preface my comments with the fact that I practice family law in Washington State and not in Oregon, I am an Oregon native that has followed this case closely.
I’m a bit perplexed by Peter Bunch’s reasoning that if the court were to abate the dissolution, he would respond by filing a motion to modify the restraining order so that Terri Horman could have visitation with the parties’ daughter. Essentially, Mr. Bunch is arguing that the abatement would prejudice his client’s ability to parent her child. My understanding of the Multnomah County local rules is that an abatement means that the entire case is halted. Neither party can bring a motion before the court, nor can the court hear argument or make any ruling on motions.
It was also interesting to hear Mr. Bunch argue that proceeding with the divorce would violate Ms. Horman’s right against self-incrimination in the disappearance of her stepson. This is the first time that Terri Horman has publicly acknowledged any self-incrimination issues. In her motion for abatement, Ms. Horman, through counsel, argued that the ongoing investigation into Kyron Horman’s disappearance had made it “virtually impossible…to proceed with divorce-related issues in an effective an[d] orderly fashion[.]” Were Mr. Bunch to bring a motion to allow visitation, Mr. Horman would no doubt argue that Ms. Horman’s actions demonstrate that Ms Horman or someone she knew was responsible for Kyron Horman’s disappearance, and that her behavior since Kyron’s disappearance shows that she is unstable and poses a threat to their daughter’s safety.
I do not believe Mr. Horman would raise Ms. Horman’s 2005 convictions for DUI and reckless endangerment, as not only later chose to have a child with Ms. Horman since that time, he also left both of his children in her care for extended periods while he was at work. Under those facts, it would be hard to conclude that Mr. Horman believed Ms. Horman posed a threat to their daughter. The judge’s comment that “[e]ventually, Terri will have to decide whether or not to plead the fifth, regardless of the timing of the proceedings,” seems to indicate that the judge may not be willing to hold the action in abatement past the January 6, 2011, hearing.
I’m also interested in Mr. Bunch’s comment that “Rudy Sanchez” is an alias. If that’s true, then what is Rudy Sanchez’ real name, and how exactly did he first come in contact with Terri Horman?
It was also strange to learn that Michael Cook was subpoenaed to testify at the hearing. I’m curious if there were others scheduled to testify as well. I cannot speak to how the Oregon court operates in practice. However, I note that each party provided written affidavits in support of their respective motions.
Is there some reason that Mr. Cook’s statement could only be presented in oral testimony?
I’m not sure I understand Mr. Bunch’s logic in saying “If this is not abated we will not get reciprocal discovery.”
The state is not a party to a dissolution action. In a dissolution action, the parties can seek discovery from each other, and depending on the court rules, from third parties as well.
I’m not sure why Mr. Bunch would have the impression that there would be reciprocal discovery with a third party in a dissolution action, especially when that third party is law enforcement.
There’s a disconnect between Mr. Bunch’s argument that Ms. Horman cannot defend herself because she would incriminate herself in the disappearance of her stepson, and his statement that “If Mr. Horman is really interested in what‘s best for the child, then Mr. Horman wouldn’t object to any visitation by this child’s mother.”
The apparent logic is that Ms. Horman admits that if she speaks, she will incriminate herself in some as-yet-to-be-named crime related to Kyron’s disappearance, yet Mr. Horman is now supposed to trust her to care for his other child, because that’s so obviously in their daughter’s best interest.
Check back to blinkoncrime.com for updates.
Madeline Tanner, contributor and copy editor, www.blinkoncrime.com
Lea Connor, Esq., legal analyst, www.blinkoncrime.com
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@riverpearl says:
October 16, 2010 at 9:16 pm
PS> Yes, there were people @ Roloff Farm Pumpkin Patch who said they had NOT heard about Kyron !
How is THAT possible ?
===========
Agreed…seems impossible people this close to Portland had not heard of Kyron Horman. The reporter didn’t say specifically how many people, but I got the feeling it was quite a few.
Prayers for Kyron and his family.
Nelmel says:
October 15, 2010 at 10:18 pm
Prayers for Kyron will be answered. And when they are, they will also tell us something of ourselves, why we cared so much about him, and why we search and search to find news of him.
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Exactly Nelmel … I believe your Mrs. M is in fact onto something genuine here for what it’s worth. I say that because there are so many sad and tragic cases today involving children going missing, child abuse, etc but for certain reasons, there are only a handful of them that really capture my full attention and completely captivate me where I seem to thirst for knowledge every single day in the case, hoping and praying for a resolution to it and for the perps to be found and fully punished to the fullest extent of the law. With time and much intuitive insight and profound thinking (which drives my husband up the wall, LOL), I have learned a lot about myself in the process and what you say is definitely true. I believe God is trying to help us see things we wouldn’t have seen otherwise, feel things we not have felt, been aware of things we might not have been aware of, etc. It’s God’s way of setting us into action to some extent … but that part’s just my honest opinion from my own experiences.
My husband asked me this question all too many times back during the Caylee Anthony case which really struck a chord with me and rendered me basically obsessed on a daily basis w/the case. The Anthony case was my entrance into the blogosphere and from that point forward, I’ve been hooked. For the life of my husband, he just couldn’t understand why being that there were so many horrific things done to children these days that make the news, why Caylee specifically had thrown into a mini-depression and had me blogging at all hours of the night, 7 days a week searching for answers. What specifically was it about her that made her so different from all the others?
I have always been a pretty deep thinker and fairly self-aware and I told him there was just something different about Caylee’s story … one that had kept me awake many a night not to mention one that had pulled on my heartstrings like no other, but I couldn’t really put my finger on it. I knew it felt really personal and I knew there was an almost free-floating sadness with me wherever I went when I would focus too much on it, but I honestly didn’t know the specific why at the time. I only knew that it had completely shocked my world.
It wasn’t until a little later that it dawned on me there were details about Caylee’s story, her life and her family that I could intimately identify with and as a 2-yr old she resembled myself in many ways when I was her age and at the time one of my own daughters looked very much like her and was around the same age which made this case feel extremely personal. But just as important, there was just something about Caylee’s innocence … the sad life in many ways she seemed to have had and the tragically cold and heartless way her innocence was taken away that left me in tears for mths. I believe this is the same thing happening to most of us when we start looking for answers on life’s tragedies and beg God to tell us why whether we realize it at the time or not. It’s because on whatever level, there is something we can personally identify with and we demand answers. There is just something that tugs at the heart about certain evils in the world that make us remind us of ourselves and/or our own loved ones and we just can’t wrap our heads around it.
Like little Caylee, I believe now that Kyron has captivated the same public audience because of the circumstances surrounding his mysterious disappearance and from a place most of us normally deem pretty safe where our kids are concerned … school! I myself have a 7-yr old son who reminds me in several ways of Kyron and it breaks my heart to think of what Desiree and Kaine must have been going through all these many mths not really having closure. I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy. And it makes me realize daily how lucky I truly am to have my little boy and to see him smile, make messes, not want to go to bed on time or eat all of his dinner because Kaine and Desiree no longer have that.
Several yrs ago, I was going through a very traumatic emotional experience for a significant period of time and a good friend of mine used to constantly me that when we are affected so deeply by another, it is because to some degree, we see or feel something in them that either reminds of ourselves (that we either like or don’t), or that we feel that person has something that we lack. Basically, that others pose as our personal mirrors into ourselves, for better or for worse.
I was shopping in the toy aisle this evening and w/o warning a sadness descended over me as I began thinking, “Desiree doesn’t have her little boy to buy Christmas presents for this year … one day he went to school and then he was just gone.” I can’t even begin to describe a feeling so overwhelming it takes your breath away, let alone even try to understand it. What I do know though is that Caylee, Gabriel and Kyron have changed my own life in such a way that my own children are living an extra 100% loved, respected and cherished because of their stories. And maybe for right now, until more answers come from above, that’s all I am really supposed to know.
Because little Caylee’s case is so personal to me, I just want to point out, that her own Mother, who did not report her missing for 31 days and then only did so when HER Mother called police after smelling “a dead body in the damn car” is accused of her murder. Kyron’s parents acted immediately
B
RE: loreli48 says: October 16, 2010 at 6:50 pm
-AND-
Idahogal says: October 16, 2010 at 7:02 pm
Deepest condolences to your loss, loreli48.
May you have support & comfort in the days to come.
Take care.
@Loreli48
Hugs and prayers for you and your family. I pray justice is served for your stepdaugher.
loreli48, I’m so sorry for your loss. I wish you and your family the best and hope the guy responsible for harming your daughter gets what he deserves. I’m heartbroken for you.
With what we “know” of “criminal history’ of AS-S, is it possible TMH could have “gone for the bad boy” thinking “he would be more likely to do a MFH’ ?
JMHO … questioning.
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RE: evie says: October 16, 2010 at 11:34 pm
Idahogal, I’m still musing over your other thoughts. Hard for me to see an affair w/TH & AS-S (mug shot).
PS. Just “what type” does TMH “go for” ?
Look @ her 2 ex-husbands & present one- the most “common trait” these men “share” beside TMH, their “marrying has HER income bracket increasing”. IMO TMH “picks” the “man” for “the needed job”, so to speak.TMH’s “men” each progressed HER move North, her education etc. So, following that premise, she would “want” a “bad boy” for the “MFH job”. Also, as another poster pointed out, the pregnancies & resulting child result in TMH “claiming inheritance right & other money”. IMO pregnancy & child(ren) seem to be used also, to advance $$$ TMH agenda.
JMHO …questioning.
SouthernMom says: October 16, 2010 at 11:37 pm
seems impossible people this close to Portland had not heard of Kyron…quite a few.
SouthernMom,
This could actually be better for a jury trial; TH attorneys then have no basis to claim a tainted jury pool.
Tallulah says: October 16, 2010 at 3:06 am
“Child support is NOT taxable income for the parent who RECEIVES the money. I am divorced, and I receive child support for 3 children. However, alimony IS taxable income.”
Undifferentiated support (i.e. alimony plus child support) is taxable to the obligee (the parent receiving the support) and tax free to the obligor (the parent paying the support). IRS Sect. 71(b).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
riverpearl says: October 16, 2010 at 1:22 am
“PS. A “copy” of TMH RO motion etc. was sent to TMH CRIMINAL attorney Houze.
( & KH’s attorney Rackner ) But no ‘other’ attorney though Bunch declares he is ONE of the attorneys in the matter (divorce/RO). So, as Blink has pointed out, how does it look that her (TMH) criminal attorney is standing next to her in divorce proceedings?”
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/Terri+Horman+Petition.pdf
Peter Bunch was retained after Stephen Houze, hence why Houze got the TRO application.
In my personal opinion, the reason Mr. Houze is at the divorce hearing is because Mr. Bunch needs Mr. Houze there in order to ensure that he does not say or do anything that might jeopardize Terri Horman in the potential criminal matter.
In my experience, the attorney in the civil matter consults the criminal attorney before taking any action.
The reason someone would need to have both a civil and a criminal lawyer is because the criminal lawyer could potentially have knowledge that would preclude him or her from representing the criminal defendant in a civil matter.
Another reason Mr. Houze would be at the family law hearing is because this hearing in particular deals with how much Ms. Horman allegedly paid Mr. Houze. Ms. Horman cannot talk without opening the door to further questions that she potentially cannot answer without waiving her right to silence. Furthermore, Mr. Bunch would lack personal knowledge as to Mr. Houze’s fee arrangement with Ms. Horman.
I would think Mr. Bunch would also want Mr. Houze present during testimony of a potential witness in the criminal matter, i.e. Michael Cook. Mr. Bunch’s knowledge is limited to the dissolution matter, while Mr. Houze knows everything going on with both matters. Mr. Houze would know exactly what to ask Mr. Cook, and he could capture a nuance that might otherwise be lost to someone who does not have full knowledge of the criminal investigation.
That said, Blink is right about Ms. Horman’s perception problem. You can put all the time in the world into picking out a client’s wardrobe and preparing the client as to proper courtroom decorum, but all that work means little when there’s an ongoing criminal matter lurking in the background.
@riverpearl
you have
more patience with that DeDe / cousin thing than I do
do you think the real DeDe is actually telling anyone anything
ofcourse there was also a so called friend Fyemonkey on SM
saying DeDe was telling them stuff to
it seems so far out but DeDe is different
who knows
anyway I am glad you are taking a look-see
Is Terri with child? maybe she is having a child for someone
this is such a crazy case
Anyway I didn’t hear of any search today and the weather was great
Prayers for Kyron to be found and come home
@loreli….I know we are both from the same state, after reading your post I’m pretty sure we are in the same city. I remember hearing about your daughter when it happened, how horrible for her. How tragic for her child and I can’t even imagine how you and your husband must feel.
Falstaf said “This could have happened in anyone’s backyard under the same conditions, one Mother who was having some kind of issues.” I think Falstaf hit the nail square on the head here and Kyron needs to be a “wake-up” call all across the nation.
Thoughts and prayers are with Kyron, his brothers and sister.
Blink has said that she thinks there was a ransom note. I have tried to understand where and when this note was found. At first I believed the note was found by TH when she got in her truck to leave the science fair. But it just doesn’t make sense to me that when she left the school on June 4, she found a ransom note in her truck.
How could someone, or why would someone put a ransom note on TH’s truck before they actually kidnapped Kyron. I would think she would have just runback into the school to verify if he was there. She could think maybe he wasn’t actually taken. TH would need to verify that Kyron was missing before she paid any ransom. They could have included Kyrons glasses with the note, but if they didn’t have him yet, how would they have his glasses?
TH was very quick to call 911. I have read that she has called 911 at least 3 times between December 2009 and July 2010. I have never called 911. It’s hard to believe that if TH found a ransom note in her truck, that she did not call 911. Has she done something so heinous that the need to protect herself from people finding out about this crime would override her fear for Kyron’s welfare? Also what would make her think she could pay a ransom on her own? If she removed $1000 or greater amount from the joint checking or savings Kaine would be sure to notice it. So how could she keep that a secret? I don’t think that Dede would have loaned her that amount of money no matter how good of friends they were. This is based on the idea that if RS wanted a monetary ransom, it would not be a small amount of money.
If she went to the 2 Fred Meyers stores in order to pay a ransom and get Kyron back why would she go into the stores. You can say she needed an alibi, but if she thought she was gonna get Kyron back why would she need an alibi? I doubt that a kidnapper would want to meet her inside the store, because there would be security camera’s. You can’t meet someone in the parking lot if you are in the store. What if Dede was waiting in the truck? I would think the abductor would have told her to tell no one, so why would she let Dede meet the bad guys? Ok so Dede went into the store. If she did then I ‘ll bet LE knows it, from witnesses or in store surveillance, we also know TH went into the 2nd Fred Meyers.
Even if TH paid the ransom and got Kyron back, he would still remember that he as removed from the school. She couldn’t be sure That he would never say anything about it to Kaine.
One way the ransom note works for me would be if TH called Kaine instead of 911, They got the ransom cash together, and Kaine waited in the truck to pay the ransom while TH took Kiara into the store to keep her out of danger. But according to Kaines actions and LE’s suspicions since Kyron’s abduction, it seems to me that Kaine was not party to any ransom attempt that involved driving around Skyline on June 4.
What if Money was not what the bad guys wanted in exchange for Kyron? Maybe TH had something that belonged to the vampires and they wanted it back!
I think there was a ransom note but it was found at the Horman residence somewhere. Th failed the LD because she knew who may have taken Kyron, but she did not want to reveal why, probably because of some kind of criminal involvement she had with the kidnappers prior to Kyron being taken. Because TH was deceptive to LE about her whereabouts and what she knew about the Kyron’s abductors, LE thought that she originally found the ransom note, and since she failed to get Kyron back, she planted the note at the Horman property and pretended that she had never seen it.
LE had some of the same thoughts about the ransom note as I did. That TH must have had someone else with her when she tried to pay the ransom. Thus the suspicions of Dede helping her. I don’t think Dede had anything to do with any of the events of june 4.
I also don’t think TH knew Kyron was taken until he was not on the bus. But she has pretty good idea of the who and why he was abducted. She still is unwilling to talk about what she did to cause this mess and incriminate herself. After all the money and effort LE has spent investigating TH and her friends because TH would not tell them what she knew. I’ll bet LE finds something to charge her with, and she may even do some jail time.
So our little friend who likes to put himself in the middle of this case has once again appeared. He has sent a threatening letter to Tricia at WS. She posted the letter there. JW has made several threats and thank goodness she has contacted her Attny and LE regarding this letter. It is a very scary letter for someone to receive.
Let me ask you a question- If you were concerned about a person’s stability, one that has openly threatened you and your family, would you post that threat on the web, with your ads gleaming next to it, as well as all the other comments from posters?
Would you fuel the situation by then asking posters to dig up information on him, which is the impitice for the threat in the first place?
Anyone with half a brain and no alternative agenda other than to eliminate the immediate threat knows you never engage a stalker/individual making the threat directly. You report it to the appropriate law enforcement agency.
Why? Because in many cases, such action could trigger an unstable individual to follow through on such a threat, almost as if they have been “called out” to do so. This is just one example.
Had Patricia taken the time do just that, she would have learned that she was not the only recipient of such a correspondence, and the MCSO had been alerted weeks ago. So in short, her actions could jeopardize the safety of others that may have been the object of similar threats from the same person.
Threatening people in that manner is a criminal act, period. Posting that, and openly antagonizing this person is a textbook example of “What not to do” in this situation. I can tell you as a fact that LE will tell her exactly that, how grossly irresponsible of her to have to be told that, is a whole different matter.
I would expect that thread to disappear in short order.
Just a little tidbit: Jason Wishert is threatening a lawsuit against Tricia/Websleuths.com and wrote a couple of letters containing some very ominious and disturbed undertones
I just commented on this a bit ago, I will not be posting links. Threats are a criminal matter. Period.
B
Thank all of you for the condolences regarding my stepdaughter. This is one more thing (among hundreds) that I have a problem with regarding Kyron. TH is a stepmother, as I was to my stepdaughter. I could have never harmed her in any way. I actually tried to help her on many occassions reagarding her relationship with her husband. When my husband and I first married his friends and family would ask how I was handling having a stepdaughter. He would brag that I treated her “good as gold”. Also, the little girl Zahara who went missing recently. Another “evil stepmother” case. These two women give stepmothers a bad name. Oh well, my prayers are with Kyron today, as always. Trying to remain hopeful, difficult as it is. Love to Kyron.
There is much good in this world with a bit of “evil” lurking around all our corners. Many of us her have had to face that evil head on, it made me much kinder, compassionate, but most of all non judgmental. You just never know what is coming at you next, especially as your children get older. Pain and grief is part of life, how you channel it into something positive is a learning process. Loreli48 has/is dealing with it as gracefully as she can, doesn’t take the pain away, but she is moving forward. We don’t need to live in fear, but we are all must watch out for one another. The Kyron Horman case does seem to be a Wake Up call.
“Stepmother” is a legal relationship term. Some “step” closer to a child, some “step” away. There ought to be a better term for each.
Omg, previous post full of spelling errors etc, people talking at me all the time. I’m lucky.
nothing new for that forum owner.
Loreli48, you and your husband have my deepest sympathy.
@Loreli48
Prayers for you and yours I am so sorry for your loss
N E V E R
Is there information/explanation somewhere that I can read to understand what the freedom of speech/opinion rules are surrounding online blogs? And how it differs if someone is a public figure -or how one qualifies as a public figure -just curious as to why,i.e. people always write moo, imo, etc. I am just an infant here…appreciate the info.
Lea Conner: Thanks for posting the motion above -interesting. My main thought is, “if you cannot put yourself on a witness stand under oath to get [what could/should be] the most important thing in your life, then…is it appropriate for you to get parenting time with a wobbler? (that is between infant/toddler…lol)
6.riverpearl says:
October 17, 2010 at 12:54 am
Idahogal, I’m still musing over your other thoughts. Hard for me to see an affair w/TH & AS-S (mug shot).
@riverpearl and @evie – LOL, I know, ewwwww…
Happy Sunday to all!
Notice that the first time it is mentioned of *w* making suicidal references was brought up on PAGE SIX of that thread. She waited until PAGE SIX before telling the readers that *w* might be suicidal. I hope this thread isn’t the trigger that brings *w* to hurt/kill himself.
I have unsolicited advice for anyone that thinks Federal Law, un-cited no less, provides cart blanche protection for them for anything that appears on their site: Get new counsel that has a west-law or lexisnexis subscription.
Posting that an individual is unstable, and posting evidence of same, is the subject of no less than 148 civil cases on the books right now. Chronic arrogance is absolutely terminal. Don’t let anyone tell you differently.
B
Idahogal says:
October 16, 2010 at 12:11 pm
Just thinking out loud again -
————————————–
Thanks for letting us listen to you think out loud.
I read your comments several times. When I started this line of thinking before, I got stuck in several places. I like the suggestions you have offered now. Here are my questions or additions –
MFH options:
Terri didn’t talk to anybody about it, somebody made it up.
Terri talked about it, but didn’t directly ask anyone to do it.
Terri asked Rudy sometime between December and Feb.
Terri asked Anselmo around December or January.
Terri asked BOTH of them, but separately.
What would she have looked for in a potential MFH partner?
Someone who needed/wanted money and would do anything to get it.
Someone who would agree out of sympathy and for a relationship.
Someone she could later argue had a motive of their own (robbery/jealousy).
Someone who had more to lose by telling about her role.
Someone who could hire someone else and not connect her to them.
Someone she could control in the future or whom no one would think credible.
Someone who had the skill to do the job and leave the area (not get caught).
Someone who could make it look like an accident (maybe).
Here is a MOO fictional account of what might have happened including Anselmo:
What if Terri was having an affair with Rudy in the last part of 2009? She begins to seriously think about getting rid of Kaine. Terri mentions the MFH to Rudy and doesn’t get the response she wanted. Anselmo does some temporary work for Rudy, and Terri finds out he has a record. Anselmo figures out Terri and Rudy are having an affair and “tries to get friendly” with Terri.
Terri figures out that Anselmo may be the person who would do this for money and asks him without telling Rudy. (Rudy thinks Terri dropped the MFH idea since she stopped bringing it up.) Terri and Anselmo talk about money and he decides to bargain for as much as he can get – maybe sex along with the money. Terri says no to his demands and Anselmo threatens to report the MFH. Terri doesn’t think he will or that anyone will believe him, but she decides to get rid of him by calling ICE with an anonymous tip. Once he goes to jail in Feb., she thinks he’s out of the picture and probably headed out of the country soon.
Anselmo sits in jail angry at Terri, but he plans no action. He doesn’t want more trouble and he knows how the legal system works by now and what his options are. He does, however, vent a lot to those cellmates who will listen about the crazy redhead and her family. Being a previous sex offender, he may be either physically or socially set apart with other sex offenders (not unusual) – including an interested pedophile who encourages Anselmo to give him lots of information to entertain himself while in jail.
The Ped develops a fantasy about Kyron and gets out of jail in May. He knows where the Horman’s live, what they do, what school Kyron attends, who’s in the family, and can say Anselmo told him to ask Rudy for temporary work. Using a computer he can check FB for pictures and activities and friends. He also knows Terri’s weaknesses and how to approach her – anything from flirting (she and Rudy have already broken up) to talking about trouble with spouses and family (he makes up his own). Talking to her is an avenue to talking to Kyron – then he is no longer a stranger.
If you go with looking for a grain of truth in everything:
Rudy could have no clue the Ped is anything more than a guy who used Anselmo’s name to try to get a few days work. Terri would know the Ped, but not that he was one, and still think everything pointed to Rudy. Although she knows more than Rudy does, she doesn’t know the importance of what she knows. The Ped was not on record as living in the area because he just got out of jail and had some lead time to find a permanent place to stay – not right, but it happens – so he was not in the group that was questioned early in the case. Finding him would depend on Anselmo talking (probably not a popular thing to do from prison), Rudy giving information if he hired him, inmate release information, and interviews.
The pregnancy part makes a lot of sense to what happened before June 4th, although it may not be true, of course. (Most actions below could be true even if the argument was about something other than pregnancy.)
Terri would know if Kaine wasn’t the father, and so would Kaine if things were not going well between them. Anselmo was in jail and couldn’t be the father unless Terri can hide about 9 months of baby bump, and I doubt they had sex anyway. Rudy is certainly in the right time frame. Tests are rapid now, and if she found out in early May, Mother’s Day makes perfect emotional sense to try to tell him. I don’t think he threatened her, but was upset and unsupportive and that made her angry at him.
The clock was ticking and she decided to try to talk to him again after she thought he had time to calm down – on June 4th. She set up her morning to have time to try to get Rudy to meet her somewhere to talk. The doctor’s appt could have been actual confusion or she changed her mind about taking Kyron when she decided to try to talk to Rudy again. Many schools just expect verification (a note) when you return the next day and then mark your absence excused. Maybe she just wasn’t thinking clearly that week.
No one has said for sure that Rudy was at the school, but if TH really is pointing her finger at him, then he was probably around. Maybe they argued or he refused to talk at all, and she left quickly to avoid letting people see her upset. I doubt if she was afraid of him, but she realized talking to him again wasn’t going to work – she’s married, so is he, it’s her problem. Rudy and Terri were each distracted by the actions of the other. Maybe Kyron saw and heard them arguing (outside?) and leaving. The Ped was not distracted and saw an opportunity.
Terri’s MFH was a contributing factor, but really a separate case. Terri and Rudy’s affair was a contributing factor but not a crime. Anselmo contributed to the MFH, but maybe not intentionally to Kyron’s disappearance. The Ped was ready and took advantage of the situation, but only had the fantasy for Kyron so no other child was in danger that day – certainly would not mean every other kid is safe everyday, however.
If Terri left the school and thought Kyron was there, and Rudy stayed and noticed that he was gone, he may have called to ask if he went with her. Maybe she didn’t answer because she was upset with him or talking to DeDe on the phone, and he left a message asking if she took Kyron with her. Being upset, Terri heard the message and thought Rudy was trying to say Kyron wasn’t at school but it didn’t make sense to her since she had just left him there, so she assumed it was harassment of some sort. Later, remembering the message which she erased, she decided he must have been the one to take Kyron.
After that, Rudy continued working or left school. The Ped was there because it was open to the public and an opportunity, but had to leave by ten or be noticed in the hall. He wasn’t accountable to anyone that day, but had been seen there before although it’s doubtful anyone other than Terri and Rudy would have known his name (or alias). He had a car. His original plan was to feed his fantasy by watching Kyron at the SF and perhaps getting a chance to talk to him alone about his project, still working on how to take Kyron. However, he was handed the opportunity and he used it.
IMO, pedophiles are very patient, focused, and very good planners to the last detail. Because of that, they also are very quick to recognize an opportunity, particularly when they are already familiar with a setting and the victim.
Also, IMO, every time we propose a scenario where Terri isn’t the guilty party, and it doesn’t hold true, then everything seems to become even more focused on her.
@Mermaid14 says:
October 17, 2010 at 4:59 pm
@Southernmom,
No disrespect intended but let’s get real. This guy was no CEO, he was a rank and file rig grunt. They work their asses of in dangerous conditions, and they don’t get compensated well for it, just like our military doesn’t and our law enforcement doesn’t. Who makes the real bucks?? Military contractors, and oil companies, that’s who.
And everything they were BUYING was from the American side not the Mexico side. The furniture, the jetskis, the cruises, if I am wrong somebody shout out. Based on what we know of the husband’s employment, the fact the wife did not have any visible means of income, these two were living high. Add up all those vacations, toys, and goodies. They were either getting $$ from an unknown source or they were up to their ears in debt.
=========================
I have only read DH worked as a Regional Manager for CalFrac. Your comment is the first I’ve heard David worked as a “rank and file rig grunt”.
I based my opinion on my own experience. I’m in Louisiana and worked in the Petro-Chem and Industrial Contractor field for nearly 20 years. I still beleive David was making minimum $85K/yr but most likely around $125K with the per diems and other incentives for being on “assignment”. There are those that work on assignments like this who make close to $200K if they work a lot of overtime…even the “grunts”
.
I repsect your opinion and admit I could be wrong on this. I would love to read more about what David did for CalFrac.
Prayers for the Hartley family.
OMG Blink…I had both threads opened in separate tabs/windows…I posted DH comment on Kyron’s page….SORRRRRY. Maybe something’s telling me to not say anything..hmmm.
MockingbirdSings you always have really thoughtful input. If Anselmo is involved it is very hard to imagine him at his age and size (135 lbs) being involved with Terri unless it is financially motivated. BLINK pointed him out from almost the beginning as being involved in this story. It seems he could have been considered in the MFH plot. My though is that Rudy may have approached him with it. I can’t imagine a Ped not being spotted at the school or chosing to be involved with one particular child he didn’t know.
I know you know that with all the law agencies and time involved there are more angles. If we figure Rudy, Terri, and Anselmo are all part of this somewhere there is another side or two that involves drugs, child or human trafficking, porn, money laundering or who knows what. Something already in the works.
We know LE has an of idea what is going on or part or all of what has been happening. It bothers me that of the very few things the sheriff did say was that they knew things they “didn’t want to know.” That is quite a statement. It is alarming. A strange thing for a LE officer to admit. This leads me to think there is a part of it that harms children. LE probably deals daily with drugs, porn, etc but probably not with bad things that happen to children.
28.MockingbirdSings says:
October 17, 2010 at 8:25 pm
What would she have looked for in a potential MFH partner?
Someone who needed/wanted money and would do anything to get it.
Someone who would agree out of sympathy and for a relationship.
Someone she could later argue had a motive of their own (robbery/jealousy).
Someone who had more to lose by telling about her role.
Someone who could hire someone else and not connect her to them.
Someone she could control in the future or whom no one would think credible.
Someone who had the skill to do the job and leave the area (not get caught).
Someone who could make it look like an accident (maybe).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MBS, like your list. Although you mentioned this, I would move almost the top of the list, someone whom she believes would not be seen as a credible witness against her. Someone she feels is below her social status. Someone with a worse criminal record than hers, as well as other issues. Someone willing to carry it out. *If* the MFH allegations are true, she obviously underestimated RS.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kyron, we all miss you and want you back home. Stay safe and warm with the angels, little one.
“Posting that an individual is unstable, and posting evidence of same, is the subject of no less than 148 civil cases on the books right now. Chronic arrogance is absolutely terminal. Don’t let anyone tell you differently.
B”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I really do not wish to perpetuate this, so delete as you see fit…
Yes, 148, and growing…But imo, it is not his arrogance that is terminal. When you typed that, I immediately thought of Tyler Clementi, and other cyber bullying cases that are devastating people everywhere. Gave me pause. Huge pause. And I went to read page 6. Low and behold, I was astonished at the arrogance, and even the continued justification -not to mention the air of “gossipy,” with no professionalism.
I suddenly feel very sad and worried for him. I feel as if I should take action, reach out, as a neighbor who knows tough times, and just to make sure he knows that in time, everything will be fine, just fine. Sure, some mistakes were made -but I do not think that we can discount the emotional devastation of all this -iand this case has affected so many quite negatively. No winners here, my friends. none. And even to consider all of us here daily -seemingly ‘obsessed’ (my word, not yours) with this case, dear Kyron. Our beds are not made, floors not swept, dishes not done (okay fine, and my laundry and yard too…) -but we are not losing jobs and reputations over this. I encourage all to show some compassion, and END IT -shut down the thread and move on! Be generous in spirit and allow him to move on. I do NOT want to see another death associated with this horrible tragedy. It is bad enough what has happened to Kyron and his family.
@Idahogal and @MockingbirdSings, thank you so much for sharing you thoughts. I would offer more discussion material, but there is so little that we can verify about this day. I.e. are we 100% sure that AS-S was locked up that day and not on probation? I also have an odd feeling that Ky left with somebody on foot (out the back of the school towards the RR tracks).
@loreli48, with deepest condolences, .
@Idahogal
was this last post by you it was well done
and a lot to think about
my problem is why the MFH on Kaine
it makes no sense to me
so she is mad but she knows about how affairs
go. She is the wife
Why kill a husband
money ? It seems they were a little tight
on money
so why.
Any idea why that makes sense
I wish it made sense to me
thanks
riverpearl says: October 16, 2010 at 10:54 pm
“Added note, ‘DDS/cousin’ state[s] LE “took DDS computer, her ‘regular’ phone & bat phone ( & yes, that is how DDS/cousin called the ‘b-phone’), cameras (2 I think) & iPod” [IIRC this is the whole list]
& ‘all of it was returned -just shy of 90-day hold’.”
Anyone know the MCSO policy on 90-day holds? Is this the type of hold that requires LE release property if it is not characterized as evidence prior to the expiration of the 90 days?
If so, this would seem to indicate that LE is back at square one, and does not have any sort of clue as to where to start to put together a case. There are lots of weirdos clouding the view, but there’s not enough about anyone to make an arrest.
IMHO, a lot of this weirdness could be explained by two very different sets of actions that are independent of each other and happen to coincide on the same day.
Let’s suppose Terri Horman was planning to leave her husband. We know that she and Kaine Horman had some seriously awkward body language at the first press conference, and we also know that Kaine filed for a divorce without any hesitation. The other clue we have that all was not Shangri-La at the Horman residence is the alleged 9-1-1 call on December 26, 2009. IMHO, there are severals signs that these two were hanging by a thread as a couple.
Let’s suppose that Terri is planning to leave, and she is not telling Kaine ahead of time. Her friends all get “bat phones” on the day she finally says “enough is enough,” and people are helping her get her things together to leave.
June 4 may have been the day Terri moved her valuable personal items — jewelry, photos, and personal papers — and got copies of Kaine’s papers and electronic data, too. If Terri left the science fair at 9 am, she didn’t have a lot of time to remove hard drives and documents — and get them copied and returned — before Kaine returned home.
Or maybe June 4 was the day that Terri decided to get moved and leave, perhaps with Kiara, unbeknownst to Kaine. She goes to several stores looking for packing tape, boxes, tie-downs to put everything into trucks and get it moved before Kaine returns home.
Somewhere amidst all of this, something goes very wrong, and someone kidnaps Kyron. This could have been coincidental. Or, if Terri had some concerns about Kyron and was planning to take him with her, perhaps she entrusted the wrong person to care for Kyron while she moved her things. In either scenario, it’s either an unrelated coincidence or really bad luck due to having trusted the wrong person.
One scenario that occurred to me is that one of Terri’s friends who does not know about her problems with Rudy Sanchez takes Kyron while Terri gathers her things. Terri checks in with the friend or gets a call saying Rudy took Kyron to go do something, say, fishing or berry picking for the day — or learns that Kyron has suddenly wandered off, and all hell breaks loose. Terri is frantic. The friend who passed off Kyron had no idea that she had put him in peril. Neither of them can figure out where he went.
The upshot from everything is that as soon as Terri realizes Kyron is missing, she knows how bad everything looks because she is either preparing to leave Kaine or in the process of moving out that very day. She tries to find Kyron and put everything back together at the house. Kaine returns home and finds things — at least subconsciously, are amiss, maybe not even amiss but just slightly off — and then discovers Kyron is missing.
This is totally hypothetical and not based on any actual allegations. Just throwing this out there as one potential explanation for the weird mix of alleged facts.
@ Lee Conner
I’m confused by your post. TMH wouldn’t be receiving alimony from an ex husband after a brief marriage, and after she had married someone else. She is getting child support for James paid by his adoptive parent.
I was taxed on my alimony while I received it, but I am not taxed on child support.
http://www.irs.gov/faqs/faq/0,,id=199747,00.html
Question: Are child support payments considered taxable income?
Answer: No, child support payments are neither deductible by the payer nor taxable to the payee.
When you total your gross income to see if you are required to file a tax return, do not include child support payments received.
Question: Are alimony payments considered taxable income?
Answer: Alimony, separate maintenance, and similar payments from your spouse or former spouse are taxable to you in the year received:
The amount is reported on Form 1040 (PDF).
You cannot use Form 1040A (PDF) or Form 1040EZ (PDF).
To help determine if these payments are considered alimony, please read the following rules that apply to payments under divorce or separation instruments executed after 1984. They also apply to instruments that were modified after 1984 to specify that the following rules apply or to change the amount or period of payment or to add or delete any contingency or condition.
A payment to or for a spouse or former spouse under a divorce or separation instrument is alimony, if the spouses do not file a joint return with each other, if all the following conditions are met:
(1) The payment must be made by cash, check, money order, etc.
(2) The instrument does not designate the payments as not includible in the gross income of the recipient spouse and not deductible by the payor spouse.
(3) The spouses are not members of the same household at the time the payments are made. Exception: If you are not legally separated under a decree of divorce or separate maintenance, a payment under a written separation agreement, support decree or court order may qualify as alimony even if you are members of the same household at the time of payment.
(4) There is no liability for payments after the death of the recipient spouse.
(5) The payment is not treated as child support.
@ LEA Conner
I apologize for mispelling your name!
Madilu says: October 17, 2010 at 6:02 pm
“Is there information/explanation somewhere that I can read to understand what the freedom of speech/opinion rules are surrounding online blogs? And how it differs if someone is a public figure -or how one qualifies as a public figure -just curious as to why,i.e. people always write moo, imo, etc. I am just an infant here…appreciate the info.”
There are many good resources on First Amendment issues. The Student Press Law Center (splc.org) and Reporters Committee Reading Room (rcfp.org) are two good places to start.
“MOO” is another issue entirely. It is an abbreviation meaning “matter of opinion.” “IMO” means “in my opinion.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Madilu says: October 17, 2010 at 6:02 pm
“Lea Conner: Thanks for posting the motion above -interesting. My main thought is, “if you cannot put yourself on a witness stand under oath to get [what could/should be] the most important thing in your life, then…is it appropriate for you to get parenting time with a wobbler? (that is between infant/toddler…lol)”
It is a bit odd that Terri Horman invoked the abatement procedure to shield herself from examination, yet she now brings a motion for visitation through her attorney, who states Ms. Horman is unable to make any statement on her behalf. Under those circumstances, how is the court supposed to obtain any agreement by Ms. Horman to abide by any sort of restrictions on her parenting time? How can the court ensure compliance with any order that it might enter?
Ms. Horman brought her motion for parenting time under the restraining order action, not the dissolution action, which is abated until January 2011. Oregon law provides that the FAPA restraining order can be consolidated under a dissolution action. (The FAPA Benchguide explains this in detail: http://courts.oregon.gov/OJD/docs/OSCA/cpsd/courtimprovement/familylaw/FAPA_Benchguide_4-24-06.pdf.) The FAPA matter otherwise stands as an entirely separate proceeding, and the FAPA order would control over any later order in the dissolution action except and unless the matters are properly consolidated.
What do you suppose the odds are that Kaine Horman will bring a motion to consolidate the FAPA order under the dissolution action? Were Mr. Horman to bring such a motion, he would no doubt argue that consolidating the matters serves judicial economy. (What judge wants to two case on his docket, each with duplicate filings, and other potential redundancies?)
Mr. Horman may have been against the abatement prior the October 7 hearing, but he can now use the abatement against Ms. Horman by bringing a motion to consolidate the restraining order with the abated dissolution matter.
It would be interesting to hear Ms. Horman’s attorney argue about parenting time when the only undisputed evidence before the court is that Ms. Horman’s stepson is missing, and Ms. Horman admits that she is a de facto suspect in her stepson’s disappearance.
@Riverpearl
I found a thread on WS where you can ask legal professionals, who are lawyers, law students etc.. questions about the legal aspects of the Teri Horman case and divorce case. You would probably need to register with the site to be able to post questions. But it looks like the people at Web Sleuths have lined up people to answer questions that know what they are talking about.
cd- we have a resident family law attorney on BOC, posts in her real name and everything: Lea Connor.
B
Eddy says:
October 17, 2010 at 7:17 pm
Notice that the first time it is mentioned of *w* making suicidal references was brought up on PAGE SIX of that thread. She waited until PAGE SIX before telling the readers that *w* might be suicidal. I hope this thread isn’t the trigger that brings *w* to hurt/kill himself.
*******************
Uh Eddy, the letter that references the college student’s suicide from cyber bullying was just opened yesterday. She posted as soon as she read it.
I’m saddened that people are bashing other sites and grinding old axes here.
I agree, it should be about the irresponsible judgement that was used to post it in the first place. I stand by my initial comments about it, and since I am aware of who the others are that received similar letters, and their feelings on that action, I can tell you nobody thinks that is a good idea. There were posts on the thread itself from people questioning the post.
Remove the personalities and your left with a bad decision, and potential compromise to others and that is not cool.
B
Moo – TH Managed to tick off a “Zetas” member. They have kidnapped Kyron. Nobody will report that he has been seen in Mexico. The US has no way to get him back publicly.. However,they are working behind the scene. After the killing on FalconLake,the PTBs in the Zetas may,may give him back. All this is MOO,perhaps the product of 3 cups of coffee on an empty stomach.
@Lea Conner: the RO and the dissolution matter had already been consolidated by the judge. Is that what you meant?
______________________
To All: Did you notice on the petition for the RO that the last sentence Kaine wrote, describing the Incident of Abuse, appeared to have been added later than his original writing? It looks like at least a different pen was used, but the writing is slanted more to the right as well. My thinking is that perhaps Rackner read his original, then suggested he add that final sentence (which refers to LE having given him probable cause….)
Also remember in that lengthy transcribed interview by Helen Jung (I posted the link earlier), Sheriff Staton essentially denied that investigators gave Kaine that info.
Kaine may not want all that discussed in the divorce matter.
Sorry, here’s the RO filing. Go to pg 2 (of 6), Item 3 for Describe the Incident of Abuse….
http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/e/1/2/e12f2287-ce0b-48e0-8d85-e3955216ae1b/FULLORDER.pdf
And, almost halfway down the page of the Jung/Staton transcript:
“Jung: “And is there anything in terms of Kaine’s decision to get divorced from Terri Horman — the statement that was released suggested that there was information revealed by investigators that lead to that breakup. Is there anything you can tell me about if they had met with Kaine to brief him about the investigation and is there anything that you know of that led to that?”
Staton: “That I can’t comment on. I — I don’t believe there’s anything indication that would lead me to believe that, but I can’t comment on that.”"
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kyron_horman_investigation_tra.html
“According to CBS affiliate KOIN, a judge consolidated the restraining order and divorce into one case on Tuesday.”
link: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20010635-504083.html
Hi Madilu,
I enjoyed reading your post. I want to point out that I don’t think Blink was indicating arrogance from Mr. Wishert. I could be wrong in my own interpretation though.
I too thought that the posts on that site were incredibly unprofessional and largely held no real meaning or purpose. It was disturbing.
Someone posted about the sum that Mr. Wishert is asking for. This is a wild guess, but because he feels his life is destroyed, maybe it is the cost of the degree that he will soon earn.
Madilu says:
October 18, 2010 at 12:07 am
“Posting that an individual is unstable, and posting evidence of same, is the subject of no less than 148 civil cases on the books right now. Chronic arrogance is absolutely terminal. Don’t let anyone tell you differently.
B”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I really do not wish to perpetuate this, so delete as you see fit…
Yes, 148, and growing…But imo, it is not his arrogance that is terminal. When you typed that, I immediately thought of Tyler Clementi, and other cyber bullying cases that are devastating people everywhere. Gave me pause. Huge pause. And I went to read page 6. Low and behold, I was astonished at the arrogance, and even the continued justification -not to mention the air of “gossipy,” with no professionalism.
I suddenly feel very sad and worried for him. I feel as if I should take action, reach out, as a neighbor who knows tough times, and just to make sure he knows that in time, everything will be fine, just fine. Sure, some mistakes were made -but I do not think that we can discount the emotional devastation of all this -iand this case has affected so many quite negatively. No winners here, my friends. none. And even to consider all of us here daily -seemingly ‘obsessed’ (my word, not yours) with this case, dear Kyron. Our beds are not made, floors not swept, dishes not done (okay fine, and my laundry and yard too…) -but we are not losing jobs and reputations over this. I encourage all to show some compassion, and END IT -shut down the thread and move on! Be generous in spirit and allow him to move on. I do NOT want to see another death associated with this horrible tragedy. It is bad enough what has happened to Kyron and his family.
8-(
Hey Blinkers, I am back (and yes, I won out over my lesser impulses in case you wondered).
You know, I still have nothing to add to this case, except my prayers that Kyron is recovered and that justice is served. One thing I know for sure is that secrets can only be kept for so long, especially when there is a network of people involved. Too many psyches in play. Someone will crack eventually. Let it be sooner as opposed to later.
28.MockingbirdSings says:
October 17, 2010 at 8:25 pm
@MBS- Another excellent post. You have put forth some good theories and questions as usual. I would agree with @graceinthehills that TH would seek someone of a “lower” social/ecomonic status and with a criminal background. IMO it is quite possible that she approached RS and AS about it, RS said “NO” but AS later said “YES”. I don’t know why I have a feeling that RS is somehow caught up in this because of the people and possibly family memebers that he had a loyalty/debt to. I must think on this some more. All IMO.
****************************************************
31.Marleysmom says:
October 17, 2010 at 11:47 pm
@Marleysmom- I agree completely.
I am convinced that there is an element involving crimes against children in this case. It is the only thing I can imagine that would cause LE to make such a statement. Further, I believe that RS, TH and AS are intertwined in it somehow, and possibly DS or someone she used to date or work with that she may have introduced to RS and/or AS and/or TH. It makes my stomach turn. It is beyond suspicious. I don’t believe that all of these people and their associations/activities with one another are coincidental, no way, IMO.
This horrid mess is a soap opera of the worst kind, and a sweet, innocent child became a victim of God knows what because of these adults and their irresponsible, despicable behaviors and actions. It would seem that none of them are concerned about this child, only about themselves, and that is digusting and reprehensible. Shame on all of them, IMO.
************************************************
35.Malty says:
October 18, 2010 at 2:08 am
(snipped)
my problem is why the MFH on Kaine
it makes no sense to me
@Malty – the MFH will never make sense to me, either. Divorce makes sense to me, period. This always makes me think of Scott Peterson and the heinous choice he made. If I were to try to guess why, I suppose an affair and/or monetary gain would be at the top of the list.
IMO money, sex and drugs are the biggest causes of crime.
*******************************************************
36.newsatfive says:
October 18, 2010 at 2:12 am
@newsatfive- As a woman that literally “moved out” of the house in one day, I can tell you it took me 4 hours, the help of two male friends and a lot of advance planning. I had already rented an apartment, opened a separate checking account with transferred funds,
had a moving truck ready to go, met with a divorce attorney, filed a RO, everything. I just waited for my abusive husband to leave for work and then we converged on the house and got it done. I did not have time for anything else that day,it was a rushed job and I was scared. IMO TH was not moving out, I believe we would have heard something about it from KH if this was the case.