Kyron Horman Case: Terri Horman Sexts Sent To Kaine Horman’s Phone…. WHAT?
HOLD THE PHONE
In what can only be considered the latest bombshell development in the case of missing Portland boy, 7 year old Kyron Horman, blinkoncrime.com has discovered that the recent sexually graphic text messages or sexts, allegedly exchanged between Terri Horman and mutual friend Michael Cook, may have been altered. Definitely, alter-able.
Blinkoncrime.com has confirmed that the phone number which Kaine hand-wrote on the originally sealed emergency restraining order dated June 28, 2010, matches the cell phone number he also alleges, through his attorney Laura Rackner, was used by Michael Cook to RECEIVE the “sext” messages in question.
What’s the issue?
Kaine Horman owns the phone and the account it is registered to, and unless the allegation is that Terri Horman, using her own phone as purported by Kaine, is herself posing as Michael Cook and sexting herself, which would seem like a physical impossibility given some of her *glamour shots*, we have a serious problem.
In Kaine’s own handwriting on the June 28th Restraining Order, he pens that is an alternative number for Terri Horman.
In the contempt order filed by Kaine Horman on July 12, Ms. Rackner states that she has personally seen the “work phone” records of Michael Cook, and goes on to say “a search” of his cell phone reflected that he took snapshots on June 28th of the earlier served restraining order, which had been sealed, and was the basis for the contempt motion in the first place. He took pictures of sealed documents on the phone belonging to the other person bound by the same order prohibiting Terri Horman from showing anyone. As there are no texts on the work number until July, it is the only logical conclusion.
I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that at some point it occurred to someone that using good faith information in your affidavit, which when not alerting the court that your client has complete ownership and access to the data on the phone account in question, can look like bad faith in a nano-second, thus the withdrawal.
However, not everyone is on the same the playbill because the 21 pages of texts, which were released in PDF format, and do not include any numbers for Terri Horman herself, were supplied in an electronically redacted format; which again indicates this was not an original file.
It was not until the unredacted pdf’s became available October 26th and we converted them to HTML files could we see that based on the file format, it is clear these records came from the account owners and were not subpoenaed from the carrier. Original files, also provided to the respondent, are the requirement of the court. We all know texts can be sent from our phone online accounts, and from our phones directly; I think I even have voice command to text widget thingie.
Anyone that had access to the account, which is registered to Kaine Horman, could clone, spoof, or manipulate those messages, period. That aside, let’s consider the possibility that Terri Horman HAD implicated herself even slightly in any messages on phones that may be utilized to illicit information by a woman who demonstrated her complete knowledge that she understood what expectation of privacy parameters she was under the impression she was operating under, and engaging in, with the “textee”.
Terri Horman was represented by counsel, it would not be difficult for Stephen Houze allege that Kaine Horman was in constant contact with MCSO, had already been provided case sensitive information by them, and as such, was acting as an agent in soliciting the text messages. You see where I am going with this?
The fruit of that poisonous tree is more like the fruit of the poisonous orchard.
The implications of this scenario are abysmal. While I completely understand the desperation of a Father wanting to locate his child, since I have yet to really see anywhere Cook attempts to engage Terrri Horman about Kyron’s whereabouts at any time; I do not get the point of the exercise.
Ms. Rackner is a first rate “Super Lawyer”, but she is not above the burden of her duty to insure that what is being provided to her as a “good faith basis” is just that.
Does this information make Terri Horman any less vulgarly inappropriate at best? Hell to the No.
While it is true on the surface because of this information one will be hard pressed to prove it was definitely Terri Horman who sent the electronic ipecac none of us will soon forget, her attorneys have not denied it was her, nor do I expect them to, at least not until they read this.
What it does, yet again, is potentially compromise the criminal case involving the disappearance of Desiree Young and Kaine Horman’s son Kyron.
This afternoon, blinkoncrime.com contributing editor and Legal Analyst, Lea Conner weighed in:
Kaine Horman claims that law enforcement provided the texts records to him, but that does not mean that the records came from the cell phone provider, nor does it mean that the conversations involve Michael Cook or Terri Horman.
In fact, there are indications that the text message transcripts filled by Mr. Horman are not as they appear. At least one of the phones purported to belong to “Michael Cook” is registered to Kaine Horman.
Just as important, none of these records indicate any information about the texts Mr. Horman alleges were sent by his wife. Mr. Horman does not list any cell phone number, not one message ID, not one cell record that indicates the identity of other party to the conversation let alone indicating Ms. Horman as the other party to the text message “conversations.” In the case of the phone with the “503″ prefix (503-XXX-XX76), Mr. Horman is the registered owner of the phone that was purportedly sending texts as “Michael Cook.”
More bizarre, Mr. Horman listed this number as belonging to Terri Horman in his application for a temporary restraining order. Was this a slip on the part of Mr. Horman? Mr. Horman claimed in a motion for remedial contempt that Ms. Horman showed a copy of the restraining order to Mr. Cook and allowed him to photograph the document.
Given that the phone Mr. Horman is the registered owner of the phone he purports was used by “Michael Cook,” it begs the question as to whether Ms. Horman ever allowed Mr. Cook access to the sealed restraining order. As a party to the action, Mr. Horman had the very same sealed documents. Mr. Horman, through Counsel Laura Rackner, claimed to have reviewed Mr. Cook’s “work cell phone records.”
It is not clear if the documents Ms. Rackner referenced as Mr. Cook’s “work” cell records are, in fact, for the phone registered to Mr. Horman. If the sealed documents referenced in Mr. Horman’s contempt motion were photographed with the phone registered to Mr Horman — the same phone that Mr. Horman claims was used by Mr. Cook — it might help explain why Mr. Horman withdrew his contempt motion.
Had he gone forward with the motion, he might have had to explain how it was the documents allegedly photographed by Mr. Cook were the same documents that he had in his possession, and that the phone used to photograph sealed court documents was registered to him, not Mr. Cook.
The records for the phone with a “971″ prefix (971-XXX-XX63) are unlisted. This phone also purported to send texts as “Michael Cook.” Due to the unavailability of any registration for this phone, it is impossible to tell to whom the phone belongs, or who was actually sending texts from this phone. The unredacted copy of the cell phone records filed on October 25, 2010, only identifies one caller on each set of cell phone records. This means that the records came from the phone, not the cell provider. Text records on pages 1 through 12 of Exhibit 1 are from (503) XXX-XX76 (“Cell Phone A”). These pages allegedly represent text messages sent between 10:17 pm on June 30, 2010 through 7:19 pm on July 1, 2010.
In separate court documents, “Michael Cook” is identified as the sender of text messages and the recipient of text messages is identified as “Terri Horman.” Cell Phone A is a Cingular/AT&T cell phone registered to Kaine Horman. It is also a phone number listed by Mr. Horman in his restraining order application as a phone number for Ms. Horman.
Pages 1 through 12 of Exhibit 1 does not list any phone number for the portion of the conversation attributed to Ms. Horman, only that the texts listed were received by (503) XXX-XX76. Text records on pages 13 through 17 of Exhibit 1 are from (971) XXX-XX63 (“Cell Phone B”).
These pages allegedly represent text messages sent between 6:49 pm on July 4, 2010 through 8:30 am on July 6, 2010. The bottom of page 17 has a partial text message sent on July 6, 2010, which purports to be sent after 8:30 am. Cell Phone B is an unlisted cell phone with AT&T (formerly Cingular).
In separate court documents, “Michael Cook” is identified as the sender of text messages and the recipient of text messages is identified as “Terri Horman.” Pages 13 through 17 of Exhibit 1 does not list any phone number for the portion of the text messages attributed to Ms. Horman, only that the texts listed were received by (971) XXX-XX63. All texts in Exhibit 2 are from Cell phone A, and allegedly represent text messages sent between 2:29 pm on July 3, 2010 through 9:40 am on July 4, 2010.
Exhibit 2 does not list any phone number for the portion of the text messages attributed to Ms. Horman, only that the texts listed were received by (503) XXX-XX76. All texts in Exhibit 3 are from Cell phone B, and allegedly represent text messages sent between 8:44 pm on July 6, 2010 through 8:41 am am on July 7, 2010. The top of page 1 of this exhibit has part of an undated message from 8:41 am., possibly on July 6, 2010, that states “I understand. I’m upset about kitty. I didn’t do [sic]”
Exhibit 3 does not list any phone number for the portion of the text messages attributed to Ms. Horman, only that the texts listed were received by (971) XXX-XX63. Surely investigators working on this case must know that the cell records filed by Mr. Horman as coming from Michael Cook’s phone were not from Mr. Cook’s phone, but from a phone registered in his own name.
Someone in law enforcement must have noticed that the number Mr. Horman claims belong to Michael Cook is also the number he claimed belonged to his wife in his TRO application. Mr. Horman signed his application for temporary restraining order on Monday June 28, 2010, prior to its filing at 4:39 pm that afternoon.
This was two days after the Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office conducted its failed sting operation at the Horman residence on Saturday June 26, 2010. MCSO was unable to confirm the murder-for-hire plot that had been alleged by the landscaper. As a result, MCSO was not able to arrest Ms. Horman.
As such, why did law enforcement then give the green light to Mr. Horman to obtain a restraining order on the basis that his wife had hired to hire a hit man? Or did Mr. Horman act unilaterally without the endorsement of law enforcement? Surely Mr. Horman must have known that law enforcement could not verify the landscaper’s story, yet he went ahead and filed a restraining order based on the very allegations that law enforcement could not verify. So why did he sign his name to allegations that he knew were not true?
The text messages don’t check out. The murder for hire allegations don’t check out. The only common thread here is a man whose son disappeared on June 4, 2010. As tragic and anguishing as Mr. Horman’s circumstances may be, that does not excuse misrepresenting information to the court.
Mr. Horman cannot claim that the phone registered in his name is Michael Cook’s work cell phone, nor can he claim that the phone allegedly used by Michael Cook was used by Ms. Horman. When Sheriff Dan Staton talked about knowing things that might surprise people, could he have been talking about cell phone records? Maybe Stephen Houze and Peter Bunch will force the sheriff to reveal its source for the records.
Although the answer would not bring Kyron home, it might at least alleviate some of the blame heaped on Ms. Horman, as unpopular as that may be.
Lea Conner, contributing editor, blinkoncrime.com
Madeline Tanner, copy and contributing editor, blinkoncrime.com
Related Posts
Related Posts:
6,473 Comments
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI
enumclawrose says: “.. What do you think it all means? ..”
The balance between parent involvement and safety seems to tip slightly towards safety. Personally, I think requiring b/g checks and picture identification for ALL volunteers would be more desirable.
DesertGirl says:
And if it was in fact done in this case, the way presented and answered (i.e., Houze administered one to TH and was satisfied enough with the results to accept her case,…
—————————————
It is not a requirement of Houze that a client be innocent. He has defended guilty people in the past and, depending upon the evidence against them, had his clients plead guilty to lesser charges.
34.Nancy says:
December 20, 2010 at 1:25 pm
Did some research and answered my own questions. LE/FBI have not stated that Kyron was snatched by a serial pedophile. And the “now reality” is not based upon facts or evidence provided by LE/FBI.
You are correct, and it is my opinion that Kyron was abducted/harmed by a serial pedophile. The FBI has never and likely will never discuss their profile in this case, it is against their policy.
I don’t suppose I could get you to take my word for the fact that part of the profile is very “spot on”?
B
~~~
good job Nancy!
Making an effort to redeem myself by saying that it was premature to take a position that a serial pedophile is the #1 Suspect. Should have said a serial pedophile is “one” possibility.
doing the walk of shame … very slowly
Malty says:
December 19, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Question to anyone
would not Houze have had Terri take LDT tests privately when he
took the case
I have no doubt in my mind he did.
B
I’ve worked around lawyers for 37 years, and I’ve never heard of criminal attorneys polygraphing their own attorneys. Frankly, I don’t know why they’d even want to, what purpose it would serve. Attorneys represent the innocent as well as the guilty. Criminal attorneys want clients who pay their fees.
I think that is a carte blanche statement, and certainly not true of all criminal attorneys, and I believe it varies by the atty, the client, and the scope of the representation.
B
Sorry, meant to say criminal attorneys polygraphing their own clients.
Blink says:
You are correct, and it is my opinion that Kyron was abducted/harmed by a serial pedophile. The FBI has never and likely will never discuss their profile in this case, it is against their policy.
—————————
Thank you for clarifying the FBI’s policy to not discuss profiles. Last night when I read the posts I was confused because I thought the FBI had released a statement about Kyron’s case.
Even though I don’t believe Kyron’s disappearance was random, it could be anyone, including a pedophile, who took or received him – particularly if Kyron was sold, as is the local scuttlebutt.
With much respect, I invite the local scuttlebutt to do their homework on high profile child abductions for the prurposes of human trafficking.
B
1.Jden says:
December 19, 2010 at 9:15 pm
jan says:
December 18, 2010 at 11:31 pm
The AUMC church FB photos are beyond creepy. Leapfrog with adults, places for boys to hide-sand pit, barrel… notice where youth leader “B” knee is touching the boy in the group shot.
The ppp photos – two different shots of the KyH look-alike in the same, very abnormal position – I noticed those the moment I searched and opened up the site. And apparently the owner of the ppp likes to consume alcohol beverages during the family days.
Between the two sites, we see an over-abundance of young boys in crouched positions. Very strange, indeed.
Very curious about the connections between the church and the pumpkin farm. It appears that the farmer’s daughter? is active in the youth group. The one little boy bears an uncanny similarity to Kyron. It’s all quite disturbing. And the fact that it is so openly posted on the web makes it somehow more so.
Jan says – “It is said that a pig can devour a human body in a manner of a few hours, no evidence, no trace.
School took cafeteria saved scraps to feed to pigs. Who are the pig farmer recipients?”
@ jan – Sorry I don’t have time to look up the link right now but I have posted it before. If you can’t find it, let me know. In the video about the Skyline garden project and recycling program the lady talking about that program says that the woman who owns the historic church (and lives there) has pet pigs (potbellied, I think) and she takes the food scraps. It’s just a quick mention.
puzzled says:
December 20, 2010 at 6:58 pm
“Good job Nancy!
Making an effort to redeem myself by saying that it was premature to take a position that a serial pedophile is the #1 Suspect. Should have said a serial pedophile is “one” possibility.
doing the walk of shame … very slowly”
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don’t always agree with your posts but I always look for them and enjoy reading them because they push us all to think outside the box. Thank you for your contributions, as well as those of everyone else here.
Nancy says:
December 20, 2010 at 6:58 pm
“It is not a requirement of Houze that a client be innocent. He has defended guilty people in the past and, depending upon the evidence against them, had his clients plead guilty to lesser charges.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you. Sorry to say, but if defense attorneys only represented clients they thought were innocent, business would be pretty slow. Attorneys are not required to believe in the guilt or innocence of their client; they are only required to zealously represent their clients (among other things).
In certain cases, I could understand why a defense attorney might ask a client to take a lie detector test: it would be helpful to know how a client might perform if the attorney suspected LE was going to request that the client take a lie detector test.
More importantly, a client truthfulness (or at least a close version) might really aid defense counsel mount a stronger defense – even though this knowledge may in effect wipe out any real question of quilt or innocence in the attorney’s mind.
I am not criticizing TH for lawyering up. I don’t think retention of an attorney constitutes an admission of guilt any more than a person’s decision not to retain an attorney can be interpreted as a sign of a person’s innocence. However, I continue to believe that Houze’s apparent strategy in this case does lead to some logical conclusions. But as Blink reminded us: Logic does not always equal Fact.
@jan says:
December 20, 2010 at 2:11 am
You have spent a lot of time looking at the ‘K’ family.. the answers to your questions are available at all the resources you have already posted. Mrs K has her own full time job outside the farm; it is in fact linked on the farm’s website front page. If you read her personal bio, and that of her husband, it is not difficult to see that he is the ‘home parent’ at this time by their mutual choice, he lives/works nearly walking distance to the school and his name is on The List recently released. Why is that weird that a father attended the IB Expo?
In general to everyone: There are *at least* three “pumpkin farms” that are in the immediate area and have been identified as being used by Skyline school (for field trips) and by the Horman family. TWO of those are on Sauvie Island. There is yet another one I just recalled that is not in the immediate vicinity but that has been mentioned as being visited by the Hormans. I don’t see where anyone has got anything that says any one specific one was involved in this case other than speculation.
The same thing for the ‘mad IT skills’. Washington County’s nickname is Silicon Forest. Every third person works in a “tech” company.. what does that mean? Nothing. And not every tech worker, including potentially KH, has the mad IT skills. I had a client who was “an IT guy” at his employer, a valuable mainframe guy. He paid me to come over to help him with his PC home computer and internet stuff because he didn’t have the first idea what to do with it.
Which is the long way of saying that I think some assumptions need to be re-thought. Hopefully it will help you eliminate some of the tens of thousands of people and dozens of farms likely to be caught up in the investigative dragnet.
I have a much better understanding of why the Skyline community is keeping their mouths shut. As a Portlander, this case has been very difficult (painful) to follow at times. Drill that down to the neighborhood community, and I can imagine they feel under complete attack.
————————-
@Blink sez
“You are correct, and it is my opinion that Kyron was abducted/harmed by a serial pedophile. The FBI has never and likely will never discuss their profile in this case, it is against their policy.
I don’t suppose I could get you to take my word for the fact that part of the profile is very “spot on”?
B ”
Respectfully, how can we? Without a suspect to compare it to, how can anyone know if the profile is spot on? Spot on to what? Rather, to whom?
Respectfully, I completely respect your skepticism, and moreover, I encourage it.
I have only suspect zero to compare suspect zero to- but I put my professional reputation on the line in the beginning, and I do so again, this is a sexually motivated crime, my profile is sound.
That said, I stand for invasive investigation in this case and I say.. Hav at it.
B
Nancy says:
December 18, 2010 at 3:49 am
caracara says:
December 17, 2010 at 5:47 pm
Just revisiting some of TH’s premeditation, misdirection, and cover-ups after Ky’s disappearance:
———————————–
Your list mirrors many reasons why I believe TH to be the planner of Kyron’s disappearance.
**********************************************************
Great post Nancy … I’m there with you on pretty much everything you said.
Jackie Bauer
says:
December 18, 2010 at 1:35 pm
@Riverpearl re: “But Mz Jackie is showing an area that is over-looked, 06/03.
I would also add EVERYDAY before 06/04.”
True, true, true. But the truck must’ve been needed for something specific, so that’s why that one is bugging me.
***************************************
riverpearl … I’ve always wondered if it was possible TMH needed the truck instead of her mustang because the truck had 4-wheel drive or at the very least was “rough terrain ready” whereas the Mustang was not. If she might’ve needed to go into any rural, forested area to get rid of any evidence, a truck would definitely make more sense than a Mustang, especially with all the rain Oregon gets and the mud it creates. Was TMH afraid the Mustang might not have made it through whatever terrain she might’ve been planning on navigating that day? JMO
@mel says:
December 20, 2010 at 4:05 pm
“There is a note under one of the pictures (for Kyrons baby sisters 1st birthday) that talks about “gaming time”, is that referring to on line gambling?”
No, generally that means playing computer games, particularly from people who play them a lot. Like World of Warcraft (to which the H’s subscribed). People who play them are known as ‘gamers’ and the activity is known as ‘gaming’.
Notice that further along there is a caption about games for the kids to play (at the party) also.
enumclawrose says:
December 20, 2010 at 2:06 pm
Jan, Brett’s profile is currently unavailable.
@ enumclawrose,
Wow, that happened fast.
I don’t know who our Blink-screen shot maven is.
It tells me that peeps in that Church community are reading here, protecting the Pastor. And that we hit a nerve.
lc says:
December 20, 2010 at 7:18 pm
I’ve worked around lawyers for 37 years, and I’ve never heard of criminal attorneys polygraphing their own attorneys. Frankly, I don’t know why they’d even want to, what purpose it would serve. Attorneys represent the innocent as well as the guilty. Criminal attorneys want clients who pay their fees.
I think that is a carte blanche statement, and certainly not true of all criminal attorneys, and I believe it varies by the atty, the client, and the scope of the representation.
——————————————————————————–
IMO, since this is such a high profile case, and the LDT tests has been made such a big deal of, I would be very surprised if TH’s attorney did not administer his own LDT test to TH. Houze is a smart lawyer and I am sure he covers all his bases.
—————————————————————————–
34.Nancy says:
December 20, 2010 at 1:25 pm
Did some research and answered my own questions. LE/FBI have not stated that Kyron was snatched by a serial pedophile. And the “now reality” is not based upon facts or evidence provided by LE/FBI.
—————————————————————————-
I believe that Blink probably knows what the FBI profile is as would local LE, but that the FBI has not made this profile available to the general public. JMO
I would be very concerned if I was a parent of a Skyline student. I know it’s important to children not to live in fear, but I’d be the first parent to make my child paranoid if I had one in school now.
I hope there is an effort made by the parents of the school to meet and discuss what happened that day as well as talk to one another about what messages their children need to be given in order to better protect them if they step outside the door one day for whatever reason.
The parents that are on this forum, please let your fellow parents know that people all across the nation are thinking of them, their children along with Kyron. I am praying for the safety of everyone of those kids in that school until this thing is resolved.
Thoughts and prayers are with Kyron, his brothers, sister, friends and classmates.
To post or not to post:
I’m interested in Blink and everyone else’s opinion of what is being discussed on two other websites, a FB page and a forum split off from GLP, concerning a person who claims to be related to DDS and who has spent quite a bit of time in recent days making some pretty incredible “in the know” claims about her role in Kyron’s abduction and her “actual” relationship with TH.
Generally I detest gossipy forums, but all of this person’s comments pertain to a missing child, and creeps me out.
I guess the bottom line for me is, if I knew what this person claims to know, I wouldn’t waste a single keystroke on an internet forum, but would forward all to LE. But that’s just me
If I question the integrity of an “outlet” I would not waste my time.
B
DesertGirl says:
And if it was in fact done in this case, the way presented and answered (i.e., Houze administered one to TH and was satisfied enough with the results to accept her case,…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, some criminal defense attorneys do have their clients take polygraphs, but that is not the reason.
Well said Grace, thanks.
B
@35. Profile. Remember it was unusual an FBI profiler came in immediately (first day or so is my memory). In retrospect, likely because they were already tracking an unknown (nonpublic) serial & thought this might be another of the same’s work. Bet this profile was there from the first weekend, then the kamikaze family blend & the divorce priority shot smoke over the case–to the FBIs advsntage if they want the perp to relax.
PS and thank Blink & her sources as the public has a right to know the panoply of possibilities
12.Nancy says:
December 20, 2010 at 1:30 am
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Great post, Nancy!
@5. Cheatsheet (instead of homework). Wouldnt it be lots easier to obtain trafficking juveniles (sales merchandise) from street kids, runaways, drug addicts? I think of high profile abduction as so risky it must be for personal pleasure.
@46. Re crim atty & use of lie detec test. I would use it with a client I was as certain as possible it would exculpate. I would not use it with a client I had to say “don’t tell me where the gun is” to. Also, innocent clients can chose to plead to lessor charges when balancing possible severe trial outcomes. TV 101.
30.Midwest Mom says:
December 20, 2010 at 12:21 pm
@dee
I have not seen the e-mail that now has labeled TH at cruel to Kyron. DY has been pretty consistent on stating that LE keeps them updated as far as how many leads are coming in and how the investigation is going, however makes it clear that the information that they receive is limited so not to put them in the position to answer questions that they can not answer. This is very different the KHs statements of what he knows from LE.
I will have to go back and listen to the interview again to see if she specifically states that the e-mail she is referring to, was shown to her by LE. DY has also has made it clear that a lot of the info she receives comes from the media and the internet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@midwestmom, I reviewed DY and KH’s interviews and statements regarding these emails, and both clearly stated that LE showed them the emails on the Friday prior to DY’s interview re: same.
It is my opinion that DY’s understandably tearful public statement about these emails is *likely* what motivated Staton to meet with her, KH and TY in early December, and ask that they please coordinate any other future press releases with LE first. I suspect the content of these particular TMH emails in which she detailed her feelings for Kyron was incendiary (probably a true understatement on my part), and LE now wish they would have kept these cards closer to their vests.
It wouldn’t be the first time we saw an LE “OOPS” moment occur in the investigation, would it?
lc says:
December 20, 2010 at 7:17 pm
Malty says:
December 19, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Question to anyone
would not Houze have had Terri take LDT tests privately when he
took the case
I have no doubt in my mind he did.
B
I’ve worked around lawyers for 37 years, and I’ve never heard of criminal attorneys polygraphing their own attorneys. Frankly, I don’t know why they’d even want to, what purpose it would serve. Attorneys represent the innocent as well as the guilty. Criminal attorneys want clients who pay their fees.
——————————————————————————
JMO I think Houze would give TH an LTD because he knows that LE can lie about the results of their LDT test. He would want to know for himself how TH would do on an LDT.
IF she passed the test then he maybe could counter any LE claims that TH failed the LDT tests. If TH failed his LDT then he could just throw out the results. But in any case I think he would still represent TH.
Blink, sorry but I tried to post something and it went poof — my browser crashed. If it shows up, I’ll be shocked. It would be something beginning “to post or not to post.” Never mind!
cd, You read my mind. So much of what these tests are about is not only what the questions are, but how they are framed. They may not be admissible in court, but expert opinions could be flying back and forth behind the scenes, not to mention what her reported failures did to public perception.
8.cd says:
December 20, 2010 at 10:43 pm
IF she passed the test then he maybe could counter any LE claims that TH failed the LDT tests. If TH failed his LDT then he could just throw out the results. But in any case I think he would still represent TH.
@Nancy says:
December 20, 2010 at 1:30 am–great post.
Nancy says:
December 20, 2010 at 2:38 am:
“Klaasand at SM also believes TH is the mastermind – which is simply to say that even moderators of crime websites can’t agree!”
And then Blink said “Of course we do not always agree, but we always respect each other’s opinions. We have different sources, and different networks, and yes, sometimes think differently.”
I guess I was trying to figure out how the facts could be so different, but I guess if the sources are sharing opinion/interpretation and not definitives then that would make sense. It’s so hard to know what’s what. I think I need to go read Southern Living’s article on how to reorganize the laundry room–probably more my speed LOL.
So I’ll ask my question again with this in mind and Blink, if you can’t answer, I understand, but it would sure help me to know this at least:
You’ve said that TH did not leave with Kyron–is that definitive with proof and information coming from LE that others like Val & Klaasend would have, or is that your source’s definitive opinion which may or may not be the opinion of all of LE involved in this case?
I would never comment on someone else’s sources, and I honestly do not know for certain what their thoughts are on this particular issue, but yes, my source is within the investigtion and I am confident that they K N O W Kyron was not with TH when he left the building.
B
22.Rose says:
December 20, 2010 at 9:24 pm
@35. Profile. Remember it was unusual an FBI profiler came in immediately (first day or so is my memory). In retrospect, likely because they were already tracking an unknown (nonpublic) serial & thought this might be another of the same’s work. Bet this profile was there from the first weekend, then the kamikaze family blend & the divorce priority shot smoke over the case–to the FBIs advsntage if they want the perp to relax.
~~~
this makes a lot sense, especially … “likely because they were already tracking an unknown (nonpublic) serial & thought this might be another of the same’s work” … which answers Blink’s question a few pages back of “what else was going on”.
22.Rose says:
December 20, 2010 at 9:40 pm
@5. Cheatsheet (instead of homework). Wouldnt it be lots easier to obtain trafficking juveniles (sales merchandise) from street kids, runaways, drug addicts?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spot on, Rose. You have just described the *typical* characteristics of children/tweens/teens that traffickers tend to target. Sadly, these are not exactly the type of victims that generate high profile publicity.
evie says:
December 20, 2010 at 8:32 pm
———————————
I understand what you are saying. Sometimes it feels like our beautiful “City of Roses” is being ripped to shreds.
All my children took yearly school field trips to the Pumpkin Patch on Sauvie Island, and still do (as my oldest is in her 30s and one is still in elementary school); it was always one of the highlights of their year. It pains me to read some of the things being posted on the blogs about the farms.
While I do not live in the community, I can vouch for the fact that Skyline Elementary has always been considered one of the finest elementary schools within the PPS system. The things being said about the staff, the school and the community are likewise painful to read.
I wish that as theories are being floated, there would be more care taken when posting the name(s) of individuals.
I don’t suppose I could get you to take my word for the fact that part of the profile is very “spot on”?
B
***
OK, this made me wonder if the part of the profile that was very “spot on” related to the masterful IT skills with no electronic footprint. That part of the profile stuck out in a “one of these things is not like the other” way for me.
Hmmm….wondering if SZ has visited BoC, and somehow left no trace? I’m NOT suggesting, by the way, that any commenter here is SZ (gotta be careful what you say here!)….just wondering if maybe Blink has some insider knowledge. Just a thought.
I’m also still entertaining the idea that an digital image or evidence of what happened to Kyron has been found by LE (“things we wish we didn’t know”). If so, this suspect is a very, very scary person indeed.
There was a case someone mentioned here a few months ago–also in the Pacific Northwest, I think–about a serial pedophile murderer who was eventually found because he attempted to abduct a boy from a movie theatre. The boy shouted and screamed and kicked…and why? Because his mother had told him that’s exactly what he should do in that scenario, following news reports of two other local boys having been murdered in a playground. The point is that the public knew what was going on, and parents warned their children. Had this mother not taken the time to talk to her son about the risks and what he should do in that scenario, this psycho could have gone on to who knows how many more victims. (This is one of the many, many things I’ve learned about since reading about Kyron here at BOC.)
It’s been making me increasingly upset that LE isn’t sharing more info with the public about this case other than “we’re working on it”).”TH did it” is one thing; this is quite another….
Thanks Rose! I like to learn a new word each day even though my posts never show it! lol
panoply-a wide-ranging and impressive array or display
Rose says:
December 20, 2010 at 9:24 pm
@35. Profile. Remember it was unusual an FBI profiler came in immediately (first day or so is my memory). In retrospect, likely because they were already tracking an unknown (nonpublic) serial & thought this might be another of the same’s work. Bet this profile was there from the first weekend, then the kamikaze family blend & the divorce priority shot smoke over the case–to the FBIs advsntage if they want the perp to relax.
——————
OK – I may have put one too many ornaments on the tree, but I think I remember at the beginning of this case when I felt much younger, that the FBI profiler was said to be brought in to create a profile of Kyron to see what sort of person he might have gone with – by profiling Kyron’s personality, interests, etc., that it could give clues to who and how someone might have gained his trust and compliance.
If nobody remembers this as right or wrong, I will search later this week. I remember it surprised me. If that’s the case, I would have expected them to continue right on to develop the suspect’s profile also.
The issue of Kyron going to the bathroom without telling anyone concerns me a lot. I have decided to write about it.
If I had been Kyron’s teacher or his school counselor, and I knew about him going to the bathroom without telling anyone (frequently enough to have people mentioning it now, have that comment in FB that was recently linked here, etc.), I know what I would have done because I consider it standard practice and a big enough issue to check out thoroughly.
As a teacher (and first to know), I would have gently and privately asked Kyron about it and observed whether he was drinking more than the average child or had any other health issues. I would have told him my job required me to keep track of all my students and I wanted to do my job well, so I had to bring this up so the 2 of us could work it out. I would personally have been comfortable talking more about it, but not everyone is, so if not, I would have asked the counselor for help, or the principal if I thought a man was needed (also depends on who I trust to tactfully handle a topic like this).
I would have tried to determine if this was an issue of “an inappropriate declaration of independence” or physical need or something else. I would have asked him if anything happened in the bathroom when he went with other boys that made him uncomfortable (the other boys were 1 and 2 years older since he started young and it was a split class) and assured him he would not be in trouble if he talked about it.
I would also have asked the principal to stand by when the boys went together and to discreetly check whether there were any problems (comments he could overhear, for example) and whether Kyron really was going more frequently or was shying away from the group bathroom time. Was he leaving class at random times or regularly?
How did his other issues with not following directions fit with this one – assuming there were others?
Having done my preliminary checking, if appropriate, I would have casually asked TH if he went more frequently at home than he had in the past or than she would expect. (Kyron was a bit young for this, but I have known students in elementary school who drank coffee, hot chocolate, or even pop before school and then had to go to the bathroom frequently due to caffeine – sometimes being fearful they would be told no because they were going too often.)
I would have asked Kyron if he was embarrassed to ask or to get a bathroom pass in front of other kids (depending on what the class rules were) and told him we could arrange another way to handle it if he wanted. (For example, we could have a secret signal and I could ask him to take a message to the office or library for me, with both of us knowing he was really going to the bathroom and that I would be watching for him to come back.)
If none of these led to a resolution/understanding of the problem, I would have to consider enlisting the help of family, school psychologist (my number one resource was always the social worker, but PPS cut them out of the budget years ago), school nurse. I would make sure an appropriate staff member was always informed about my concern and discussions with Kyron so that inappropriate boundaries were not crossed.
Depending on what direction I thought this was leading, I might:
1 – talk to his dad to see if he had a good understanding of basic body functions, including the differences in appearance due to circumcision or non-c.
2 – suggest to parent a physical exam or consultation (if it went on for longer than 4 weeks) (a U.T. or digestive problem?)
3 – ask his teacher from last year if this had been a problem
4 – ask myself a lot of questions and find a way to follow up appropriately:
(a) could he have been a victim of abuse and be using the bathroom alone due to shame or for the privacy to do something else?
(b) could someone in the class have attempted to verbally bully him (and others not tell)?
(c) were there other things that could be related?
(d) who else used the same bathroom and might be there?
(e) was there any other room or work area from which Kyron might be observed going alone?
(f) is everyone sure the bathroom is where he really went every time?
(g) is this a personal thing Kyron has with me – a control issue? If so, why?
This is NOT hindsight. These are the kinds of issues that got me out of the classroom and into working as a counselor. Apparently Ms. Porter did share that it was happening – I’m wondering if anyone asked those questions or was starting to.
I would never have turned this into a discipline problem for him. I
think Terri’s “sigh” at the end of her FB caption says a lot about her. And (now in hindsight), I would wonder if any of his behavior that upset her just made him want to do it more.
Outstanding Post.
B
Today is the 22nd anniversary of losing Pam Am 103′s passengers.
In my neighborhood, which was a thriving campus cauldron of all sorts of fascinating people from all over the world, the day after the plane exploded, we all by then learned in the news that we had lost 35 Syracuse University students on the flight. They were coming home from a semester-abroad adventure.
You are all aware that the bomber was released last year under ridiculously embellished health risk claims.
Justice, it seems, can occur….and then be lost, or worse, just not last that long. He was not in prison a very long time when you consider the crime committed and the lives lost.
Whatever cracks Kyron’s case wide open, and whenever that occurs, I truly hope that it is a spot-on conviction, and that no loopholes ever find an appeal or a hung jury or anything like that make justice for this little boy evaporate.
It took years to convict the Pam Am bomber, and even then, the monster was freed.
There are always small and informal memorial gatherings on SU’s campus to mark this date and to remind all of us in this little urban island in upstate NY that justice can be gained, and then horribly lost, with the most outrageous lies.
Here’s hoping that the day Kyron is found, that there is not just his Wall of Hope, but his Wall of Justice — an impenetrable fortress that never lets the monster out again.
MockingbirdSings says:
December 21, 2010 at 2:24 am
The issue of Kyron going to the bathroom without telling anyone concerns me a lot. I have decided to write about it.
——————————-
Excellent post – and since students are generally not allowed to leave the classroom to go to the bathroom without asking the teacher’s permission, unusually high numbers of bathroom visits would be known to past/present teachers.
MockingbirdSings says:
December 21, 2010 at 2:06 am
——————
OK – I may have put one too many ornaments on the tree, but I think I remember at the beginning of this case when I felt much younger,…
————————————–
I can totally relate. Thanks for the laugh!
Blink,
Has LE investigated if this perp has molested any other children
at skyline in the past?
If this is a Serial Pedophile then Kyron is not his first victim.
Who are his other victims?
Exactly.
B
Not him, confirmed, but I appreciate the heads up.
B
Blink says:
With much respect, I invite the local scuttlebutt to do their homework on high profile child abductions for the prurposes of human trafficking.
————————
Blink: you have mentioned several times that sadly you believe Kyron is no longer with us. Does this mean you now believe he could have been abducted into a human trafficking ring, and is possibly still alive? Do you believe this is what his parents may be thinking?
No, I definitely do not. I sadly believe he is deceased, and while human trafficking is very real, and a severe problem, I do not think it has any relevance in this case.
B
http://www.productivity501.com/your-online-footprint/8419/
this is an interesting article about electronic footprints.
Not having an electronic footprint would mean not doing anything to attract public attention- not going on facebook or any of the social networking sites. Many people really don’t have an electronic footprint-especially if they don’t use their real name on any sites
ever
Having very good IT skills- many people have especially gamers- that’s something to think about- who played the games with TH& KH- many gamers know each other through the games and just know each others game names. There are people who still just call my son by his gamer name.I wonder how far the LE have researched her online gaming friends.
I also wonder if TH was threatening Kyron with sending him away like his brother and that’s why he was crying to Desiree to stay with her. The more I think about it- the gaming connection of an outside person actually abducting Kyron is very feasible. I’m still mulling around the gym connection- I know from my friends stories that there are some real unsavory characters that hang around gyms/fitness centers
pdxgirl says:
It’s been making me increasingly upset that LE isn’t sharing more info with the public about this case other than “we’re working on it”).
———————————–
I share your frustration completely.
This might make you feel a bit better. I was watching a “Disappeared” segment on Discovery ID last evening where the local/national news had gotten hold of information about the investigation and broadcast it. The frustrated lead detective in that case made this statement, “If you don’t control the flow of information, you will never know what you have lost.”
Even though it is frustrating, I hope that LE keeping information close to the vest will ultimately result in increased odds of identifying and prosecuting person(s) guilty of denying little Kyron the life he was entitled to.
Someone posted this of Kyron’s facebook and I pray this every day- miracles do happen
May the angels keep keep Kyron this morning
May they guide him through the night
May they comfort Kyron when frightened.
May they help him win the fight.
May they keep watch on his soul
May they show him the way
May they guard him when he is sleeping
May they see him through these days
May they show us new hope
May they still our every doubt
May they calm his every fear
May they show him, his way out
@Blink
“I would never comment on someone else’s sources, and I honestly do not know for certain what their thoughts are on this particular issue, but yes, my source is within the investigtion and I am confident that they K N O W Kyron was not with TH when he left the building.”
B
——————————–
I’d been meaning to ask you about that one. I don’t think Kyron left the building with TH either. Quite likely, however, he left the school grounds with her.
I disagree, I do not believe Kyron left with TH. What did she do with him in minutes to be seen on video?
B
Thinking out loud here after reading all of the comments for quite a few days:
I wonder if any of the men who were at the Sci-Fair also work at a Fred Meyer? Had Kyron confided in Terri about someone making him uncomfortable? Had Terri picked up on something that gave her a hint or a clue (either directly or indirectly) into the interest this person had in Kyron? Did she sort of “lead him into the lion’s den” not knowing for sure how it might turn out but having a “hunch” that it could turn out that way?
I know it’s a long shot but it appeared to me that the way Terri’s truck was portrayed on the service road – did she hide and wait to see if something might happen? Did she then drive to the two Fred Meyer’s to see if the potential perp’s truck would show up for work and when he didn’t – did she drive around the back roads to see if she might see something? Is that why she recruited DeDe to drive the back roads because she was scared to do it alone? Did she then call the school under the cover of picking up the project and when she didn’t hear that Kyron wasn’t at school – she thought he probably nothing had happened? Was she then as shocked as Kaine when he didn’t turn up on the bus?
Does she really not know where Kyron is – but she knows she pushed him or encouraged him to go with someone who had given every indication of his intentions?
@justice23 says:
December 20, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Jackie Bauer says:
December 18, 2010 at 1:35 pm
@Riverpearl re: “But Mz Jackie is showing an area that is over-looked, 06/03.
I would also add EVERYDAY before 06/04.”
True, true, true. But the truck must’ve been needed for something specific, so that’s why that one is bugging me.
***************************************
riverpearl … I’ve always wondered if it was possible TMH needed the truck instead of her mustang because the truck had 4-wheel drive or at the very least was “rough terrain ready” whereas the Mustang was not. If she might’ve needed to go into any rural, forested area to get rid of any evidence, a truck would definitely make more sense than a Mustang, especially with all the rain Oregon gets and the mud it creates. Was TMH afraid the Mustang might not have made it through whatever terrain she might’ve been planning on navigating that day? JMO
——————————————–
Simply, her red Mustang bearing her personalized license plates “RDSQRL” would have been easily recognized.
Just saw this video from what appears to be a Medford TV station, dated December 19.
http://www.localnewscomesfirst.com/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=431&task=videodirectlink&id=6971
Desiree says about TH on the video (at about the 1:10 mark) “She will be arrested. She will go to jail”. When the reporter asked Desiree something to the effect of why TH hasn’t been named a person of interest or arrested Desiree replies, “there is a method to everything they do”.