Jodi Arias Trial Verdict IS IN: GUILTY Of MURDER In The Slaying Of Travis Alexander

 

 

Image courtesy Arias

Image courtesy Arias

Phoenix, AZ-  In the 4 month long trial of Jodi Ann Arias for the murder of her brief boyfriend Travis Victor Alexander, the jury deliberating since last Friday has arrived at a verdict in her case.   Arias was found guilty of the pre-meditated murder of  Travis Alexander on June 4th, 2008.

 

 

 

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1,859 Comments

  1. GraceintheHills says:

    Rose says:
    May 27, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    Rose, thank you so much for sharing all those links. O/T – Do you remember “est”, that group that formed in the early 1970′s? A woman I know lost her husband (a surgeon) and her two teenage daughters to that movement. She was unable to speak with her daughters for years. Finally, the youngest daughter had has enough and decided to leave to attend university. The oldest daughter soon followed. Both of them are *still* receiving therapy, are leading normal lives, and are again very close to their mom.

  2. Jean says:

    Thank you Sue…I agree with you and I know there is a Higher Power who will deal with her at the right time, however I feel like the formen did not follow the instructions of he judge. He used his feelings and not the facts, in this case. I will be okay with LWOP if that’s what she gets. Again, thank you Sue, you speak with much grace and wisom. I know the Higher Power on a personal level and I believe, from your commens you do too. God bless!

  3. A Texas Grandfather says:

    Rose

    Your post is about an important point regarding Travis and Jodi. I believe that Jodi was enticed into the PPL scheme because it offered her a way to get herself out of debt. Jodi did not have work skills to make a lot of money. However, based on the presentation she made to the court during the penalty phase of the trial indicate that she had learned how to do a reasonable one.

    There are many sects of the Morman religion. Those that behave like the Warren Jeffs group are certainly different in behavior and moral values when compared to most christian groups. There are Morman groups all over the western states.

    Jodi has some major issues with regards to her mental state. It appears to me that the women in the group to which Travis belonged quickly spotted this problem and began to shun Jodi. At the same time, Travis was using Jodi in a sexual way. At that point, I believe Jodi was desperate to do whatever she thought might advance her position in the eyes of Travis and thus continue to be a part of PPL.

    With all things considered, Jodi chose to hide her activities during the trip to Arizona. I believe that she planned this over a period of two or three weeks. She was very angry at Travis for pushing her away and was intent on making him pay the ultimate price for doing so.

    The trial jury did its job very well. The problem arose when the guilty verdict was rendered and the public saw the split. We don’t know the why of it. It could be as simple as the four that could not reconcile that she deserved the death penalty, thought she was mentally challenged. They forgot the difference that the legal system makes for an insanity charge.

    We will see what happens in the coming weeks. At this point, I think the final outcome will be LWOP.

  4. GeorgiaDad says:

    one of the problems with social media is that people tend to group in “teams”. This site continues to allow dissenting views, but on many sites, those with dissenting views are essentially driven away.

    Many people have become emotionally involved in this case. If they knew TA or JA personally, then that is reasonable. If they have never met any of the characters involved, then people need to step back a little and objectively look at all the facts, even facts that don’t fit their own hypotheses. The juror that stated that JM was an advocate for the Alexander family completely missed the mark. So far she has escaped criticism, but her thinking was improper. The Alexander family was not on trial. Jurors are individual persons with differing opinions, we should not single out individual jurors for criticism just because they saw the case differently than we did.

    All these people are complex personalities.
    1) JA has significant emotional issues, but does have some longer term relationships. I don’t know WHAT she is, but it is not fair to write her off as a soul-less demon. It makes it easy to say she is non-human, because that lets the rest of us off the hook
    2) TA overcame childhood abuse, but I doubt the scars ever went away and would likely continue to affect his behavior. He was a motivational speaker, but much of that motivation was to encourage snake oil salesmen to sell more snake oil.
    There is probably a little of TA and JA in all of us. There is no happy ending to this tragic event.

    When JM quoted from “For Whom The Bell Tolls”, he intended it to represent TA’s death. But the poem is equally applicable to his family, JA and her family, and everyone involved in this trial, and all of us at BOC.

    I have previously expressed my opinions about what should happen, but to be honest, I really don’t care what happens now. I have seen multiple quotes from injured families, that watching the execution of their loved one’s killer doesn’t bring the closure they seek (sometimes it does, frequently it doesn’t). All I know is that JA is being kept from society where she can’t hurt me or my family.

    I personally feel I grow from respectful dissenting opinions, as I believe others do as well, so I appreciate your observation of that GD
    B

  5. jeni says:

    I had been planning to go to the Grand Canyon someday but after reading about the Arizona State Prison system, I’m too scared to set foot in that state.Cages in 110 degree heat-really? Free slave labor for corporations and politicians. Sometimes people who are mentally ill confess to things they didn’t do. Why is everyone in such a rush to kill her? To cover something up is what it sounds like to me.

  6. Mom3.0 says:

    Ragdoll you are a gem – same goes for every poster here

    TGF thank you so very much for your well wishes- yes those words were TA’s & I agree with your thoughts IRT punishment vs revenge

    Lyla thank you for your kind acknowledgment of my post I dont know how grounded I am though, as my thoughts and feelings in this case change often

    Rose- thanks I appreciate your kind thoughts

    I will not buy JBs book, perhaps someday i will pick it up at the library. Its not hard to imagine it was part of JBs strategery to win the popularity contest. So was playing dumb when he is in fact quite shrewd.

    Thanks for sharing that book info with us.

    Unfortunately Likability will always be a factor.

    This is not just reserved just for the lawyers, but also extends to the witnesses, even the experts- as well as to the victim and defendant.

    A jury is supposed to weigh only the facts in evidence- it is not to be swayed by likes or dislikes-
    a jury is supposed to disregard such things as personality. style etc

    But they are only human, so
    I do realize what is supposed to be and what truly IS are two completely different things- otherwise jury consultants wouldnt be such a key factor.

    AJMO
    Peace

    I am halfway through JB’s book. I did not purchase it, nor would I as well, but I will be ruminating for some time about my reflections on it. Mr. Baez has the spindoctor version of events down cold, for sure.

    B

  7. Mom3.0 says:

    Ill share my thoughts on DID FWTW
    Blink- couldnt you just do a JB book review for us naming all the fibs to spare us from further agony?

    BYW Blink I appreciate you naming me along side grace and Rose- it was a compliment – and Ragdoll thanks for bringing Blinks name response to my attention, as I missed it the first time…I guess the elephant wasnt that big or I am far more blind than I thought J/k

    I never encountered any case like the “movie” versions of DID

    As Rose and grace have already said DID isnt even recognized by most – or it is seen as extremely rare at least when
    referring to separate and distinct alters… like in Sybil or Eve or even Tara

    However if the study by Dr Paul Dell is correct than this condition is most likely overlooked or misdiagnosed frequently ( some info at bottom ****)

    grace is correct that when we all suffer frin dissociative actions from time to time

    IMO there has to be more research and testing into this condition

    DID has been identified by following numerous specialized testing tools as well as a complete physical check in addition to a thorough medical records check dating back through early childhood.

    I do not believe Dr. Samuels nor any other Dr. actually took the time and energy to do such extensive testing on JA

    Interestingly enough, though DID is included in the DSM fourth edition and the DSM-5. –

    Does anyone remember offhand which manual was utilized in this case?

    snipped from
    http://www.dissociative-identity-disorder.org/

    The proposed edition of the DSM-5 will emphasize fragmentation of identity, memory, and consciousness and at the same time add the “disruptive effect of symptoms on consciousness and a broader definition of symptoms.” [19]

    1• Disruption of identity characterized by two or more distinct personality states (one of course can be the host, since this is also a dissociated state) or an experience of possession, as evidenced by discontinuities in sense of self, cognition, behavior, affect, perceptions, and/or memories. This disruption may be observed by others, or reported by the patient.

    2• Inability to recall important personal information, for everyday events or traumatic events, that is inconsistent with ordinary forgetfulness.

    3• Causes clinically significant distress and impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

    4• The disturbance is not a normal part of a broadly accepted cultural, religious practice, or part of the normal fantasy play of children.

    5• The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., blackouts or chaotic behavior during alcohol intoxication) or a general medical condition (e.g., complex partial seizures). [22]

    ****The DSM description of Dissociative Identity Disorder may well be inadequate. An in-depth study, by Paul Dell reported non-observable symptoms in those with Dissociative Identity Disorder including: state dependent amnesia, conversion symptoms, self-alteration, derealization, depersonalization, flashbacks, trances, identity confusion, awareness of alters, voices, thought withdrawal and insertion, made impulses, feelings and actions and non psychotic auditory and visual hallucinations. The study reports that the description in the DSM is “deficient because it omits most of the dissociative phenomena of Dissociative Identity Disorder and focuses solely on alter personalities.” [25]

    Cont Part 2 JA and how she could possibly fit DID

    AJMO
    Peace

    I have no earthly idea if I could ever review that waste of tree pulp, except to say that if anyone is interested in wasting 13 hours of their time they can never get back- one might consider teaching a cat to bark.

    It was DSM -4 TR.

    B

  8. jeni says:

    What really surprised me was an ER nurse and 911 operator voting for the death penalty They must be really burnt out

  9. lyla says:

    Words from Harold Sorenson, Tanisha’s husband. It sounds like they are expecting a retrial of the penalty phase.

    “I will make a comment ! These are my words only. this is not from any of the Alexander family. or even from my wife Tanisha. they are all emotionally drained.
    at the same time they are overwhelmingly grateful ! to the court, to judge Stevens, to the jurors all of them, especially to Juan Martinez, to the Attorney General of Arizona, who they will be meeting with very shortly, to prepare themselves emotionally mentally, for the re trial of the therd phase, the penalty phases. this will be even harder on them then what they’ve experienced during the past phases of this trial.”

    https://www.facebook.com/Justice4Travis/posts/482193485190132

  10. Eloise says:

    jeni says:
    May 28, 2013 at 3:20 pm

    What really surprised me was an ER nurse and 911 operator voting for the death penalty They must be really burnt out

    **************
    Why do you say that?

  11. Eloise says:

    Blink says:

    It was DSM -4 TR.

    B

    Except Dr Samuels said he didn’t have the TR version update.

  12. Rose says:

    I love that: waste of tree pulp.
    I like the diagnosis ” moonbat.”

    Lol, stick with me, I come up with all kinda terms never to be included in any DSM’s.

    B

  13. Rose says:

    @jeni. I agree on the job burnout perhaps affecting their view.
    Since they say “no gender trending,” I assume the other 2
    quiet females (probably seeing the venom at foreman) were lwop.

  14. GraceintheHills says:

    jeni says:
    May 28, 2013 at 3:20 pm

    What really surprised me was an ER nurse and 911 operator voting for the death penalty They must be really burnt out.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Jeni, I don’t find it surprising considering the number of citizens in Arizona who support the death penalty.

    But, here is something interesting: did you know that female jurors tend to be harder on female defendants than male jurors?

  15. GraceintheHills says:

    Eloise says:
    May 28, 2013 at 1:46 pm
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Thank you so much for posting that link.

  16. Eloise says:

    You are most welcome Grace :)

  17. whodunnit says:

    Mom3.0 says:
    May 28, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    ——
    Very interesting and thanks so much for spending the time to post!

  18. whodunnit says:

    to ragdoll:
    just giving you a shout out, always appreciate your posts!

  19. lyla says:

    @GraceinThe Hills
    “But, here is something interesting: did you know that female jurors tend to be harder on female defendants than male jurors?”
    —————————————————————
    Not surprising and I think I know why :)

  20. Eloise says:

    I feel like the link lady, interesting take and discussion 9th circuit.

    http://wendymurphylaw.com/jodi-hannibal-lecter-arias/

    YAY! Thanks linklady. Not to be confused with lunch-lady, a personal favorite diddy of mine as preformed by Adam Sandler.

    B

  21. Duchess says:

    E
    I read and retread the link you posted. Thank you,thank you thank you. I recommend everyone read the link she
    Posted. It will make you think long and hard.

  22. whodunnit says:

    Eloise says:
    May 28, 2013 at 9:04 pm

    Eloise
    what a great link! It bears reading all the way through, at first I wasnt sure where she was headed but- the last couple of paragrapghs explain things so clearly with regard to the unethical, but apparently productive strategy of witholding mitigation witnesses…

  23. Mom3.0 says:

    Blink, You cant blame me from trying if I ever do read his book I would very much like to discuss it with you and others here on BOC – so keep your calendar open on the Caylee threads as from your thoughts I think I am gonna need to rant.

    RE DID
    I dont know exactly how or where to begin- anyone reading here knows editing is not my strong suit- and this s a very broad subject-

    First I need to state FTR I am not attempting to diagnosis JA as suffering from DID or any other condition for that matter-

    I am only offering my thoughts and observations on how some of her known history and actions etc could fit into such a diagnosis

    I am not a Dr. Nor do i play one AJMOO

    Whodunnit your concerns were quite thought provoking so i am going to start there and then expand as the convo unfolded, between you and grace, blink and Rose…please if anyone else, regardless of backgrounds or experience wants to weigh in please do- it would be most appreciated. ragdoll, this means you too friendly.

    again FTR, I am just offering my thoughts and although they may differ from time to time with others My opinions are not offered as the truth or as right VS others as wrong I am in no way an expert.

    The interesting thing about DID for me whodunnit is that there is no set theory as to the why and what fors- not even within the psychiatric community as it spans through time

    IMO each theory holds some truth, that is why i think so much more research etc is needed.

    Cont part 3

    AJMO Peace

    o/t: You know I will, but seriously, it is killing me to even get through it :)
    B

  24. GraceintheHills says:

    Eloise says:
    May 28, 2013 at 9:04 pm
    I feel like the link lady, interesting take and discussion 9th circuit.

    http://wendymurphylaw.com/jodi-hannibal-lecter-arias/

    YAY! Thanks linklady. Not to be confused with lunch-lady, a personal favorite diddy of mine as preformed by Adam Sandler.

    B
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    And I thought it was only psychiatrists and psychologists who had this take on all the vivid sexual imagery that Nurmi and Arias conjured up for the jurors. :)

    Very interesting article.

    I agree it is very interesting, and Wendy knows how to engage her readers for sure.

    I personally think it is reverse-sexism to suggest that the grown men on this jury were swayed by porn, or this girl, when they convicted her of pre-meditated murder AND she has her facts wrong about the gender of the jurors who voted for life v death. What are they now, lesbians? They voted for death v life to further their sexual interest in this convicted lizard?

    I think it is giving the defense too much credit and not enough to the jurors, jmho.
    B

  25. Word Girl says:

    Blink, I’m glad you’re going to read and report back. Saves my back.

    What does anyone think of JA’s capacity to cause harm from behind bars? Could the lives of the Alexander family be in danger? What about prosecutors? Jury members? (betrayers?)

    I am not trying to create an issue where there is none, but I’m wondering how much power can be wielded for an inmate in Arias’ position?

    Arias has demonstrated her ability to reach public outside of prison to date, I expect that to change greatly once she is sentenced, but to your point, I would put nothing past her as long as moonbats find each other. Oversimplification, yes. Fear-based, yes.

    B

  26. Mom3.0 says:

    Thanks Blink will do – please dont over torture yourself as no book should be torture

    Part3

    RE Jumping into the convo–

    whodunnit says:
    May 24, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Because I am so flummoxed by all the psychological diagnosis and references to same that have been discussed on this site, I have never joined in for those discussions.
    And because this is late in the game to bring this up- and it may well have been brought up before-apolies up front… but..
    did all the testing done on Arias rule out any possibility of multiple personalities?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Who IIRC Dr. Samuels at first thought she may fall into this disorder but unfortunately I cant remember why or how he ruled it out…

    Could it have more to do with the fact that for most juries AND defense teams- they would see this defense as more of an excuse or as a losing hand right out of the gate as DID is extremely hard to diagnosis and it is not even recognized by all as legitimate.

    GraceintheHills says:
    May 25, 2013 at 11:43 am

    whodunnit says:
    May 24, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Because I am so flummoxed by all the psychological diagnosis and references to same that have been discussed on this site, I have never joined in for those discussions.
    And because this is late in the game to bring this up- and it may well have been brought up before-apolies up front… but..
    did all the testing done on Arias rule out any possibility of multiple personalities?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Great question, Who, as even “Dr. Drew” initially wondered if this might be a possible diagnosis. No, there is no test for this extremely rare and controversial disorder, now called Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID). DID is believed to be precipitated by severe, repetitive emotional and/or physical trauma. Although it is not that uncommon for forensic psychiatrists to see at least one malingered (faked) case of DID in their careers, no one I know has ever diagnosed it.

    Remember the movie “Sybil?” The real Sybil came forward later and said she faked the different personalities to get more attention from her psychiatrist, Dr. Wilber. Many psychiatrists familiar with Sybil’s case now believe she had borderline personality disorder.

    And, remember, JA does not have amnesia for the killing. If you have seen the interview with Det. Flores in which she is claiming that a male and female ninja killed Travis, she mentions Travis down on the floor on all fours, holding his right hand up to his head, and calling out for help. She also tells the detective that Travis told her he couldn’t feel his legs and that there was blood everywhere. Sounds to me that she was able to form memories during that time.

    ~~~~~~

    I think inorder to even be open to considering JA as suffering from DID We have to step away from the whole Sybil Eve tv versions of the disorder.

    Recent research shows dissociation runs along a continuum, with some forms of dissociative disorders being higher or lower.

    I agree that DID is often believed to be precipitated by severe, repetitive emotional and/or physical trauma. But there is some debate over exactly how severe or repetitive the abuse has to be, as well as what age it can occur.

    As we all know not every severely abused child or infant grows to be an abuser, the same goes for DID- within this same line of thinking, the abuse need not be severe or repetitive for a person to become an abuser or to suffer from DID….

    I met many who had this diagnosis bantered about hush hush- – its almost as if because of the controversial nature of the disorder and the TV depictions of it- most Dr are reluctant to sign off on it…

    You brought up Sybil and BPD, this is often a disorder that is said to coincide with or piggy back DID, add to that post traumatic stress disorder OCD etc.
    I have found that sometimes those said to have DID were once diagnosed with schizophrenia or other disorders first

    Again, IMO seemly underscoring the point that most do not want to associate themselves with diagnosing such a controversial disorder and since there is such a blurring of markers that may fit other less controversial conditions it might be that DID is much more prevalent than once thought.

    Grace you wrote:

    And, remember, JA does not have amnesia for the killing. If you have seen the interview with Det. Flores in which she is claiming that a male and female ninja killed Travis, she mentions Travis down on the floor on all fours, holding his right hand up to his head, and calling out for help. She also tells the detective that Travis told her he couldn’t feel his legs and that there was blood everywhere. Sounds to me that she was able to form memories during that time.

    First let me say i am only right now arguing for DID as part of the debate- I am not saying I dont agree with you entirely

    But for the sake of the debate…
    I know I am gonna sound like Samuels here but…just because JA may have implanted some memory or thinks she did or since recovered some memory after the killing…..does not rule out DID

    DID need not be a complete amnesic episode as it has been said that some who suffer from the disorder sometimes report a separation from oneself but not complete.. sometimes with little or no control it has been described as if the person is watching themselves from within… almost like a dream yep you guessed it through a fog…

    In a sense it is a blackout but not truly as for some certain periods of time are recorded and others are not- often times they are missing time but they dont usually know it until someoneelse points it out.

    For example

    A teen I had been working with who had a history which included sexual abuse before the age of five/ dysfunctional family/emotional problems attended a class retreat- with no forewarning to school staff part of the presentation veered off into an impromptu face your secrets convo which included talk of sexual abuse etc

    This presentation was more than 30 minutes long as it was going on ITK staff including myself kept a watchful eye on teen as we were unsure how teen would respond- as this history was not known outside of M records-

    Teen sat through discussion seemingly attentive no outbursts no overt emotions- seemed to respond appropriately to cues and peers etc.. participated in team building games etc

    After presentation Teen along with others were sent off into even smaller groups to discuss-
    Teen became bewildered and confused as to the line of discussion

    Teen Brought to our attention teen had simply blacked out during the presentation had no recollection of those 30 or so minutes and only became aware of the blackout when smaller group topic was brought later

    DID is said to occur as a coping mechanism and it is said to often be triggered but not always present with overt “alters” perhaps seen as a lapse in time or a mere black out… this episode was not the only occurrence and teen diagnosis was said to later include possible DID..

    Grace you wrote:

    No, there is no test for this extremely rare and controversial disorder, now called Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID)

    there are tests but no set test and not one that can differently diagnosis , just rule out IIUC-

    but there is the DES The Dissociative Experiences Scale which IIRC she was given? Someone please refresh my memory here…

    and if she was given this test then I for one cant imagine her not answering “correctly” enough to NOT rule out DID (more on this later)

    Thanks you Grace and Who for bringing up such an interesting topic and I hope you all dont mind me jumping into the convo and I hope you dont take offense to any debate. Please Grace feel free to correct anything I am totally wrong about as I bow to your knowledge and expertize.

    AJMO
    Peace

    Sorry for the length and please excuse my being a board hog…no editing skills….sigh

    Thanks for moderating Blinky

    Cont Part 4

  27. Mom3.0 says:

    whodunnit says:
    May 26, 2013 at 4:19 am

    Grace writes :
    ( re: possible DID)
    And, remember, JA does not have amnesia for the killing.
    —-
    Dr, Samuels did offer his opinion that the intruder story could have been an example of a type of transference that allowed Jodi to separate herself from the experience- attributing the crime to another entity as a way of processing the trauma without associating herself with it.
    And it appears that in DID there are varying states of awareness of ” other personalities”- that those with DID experience black outs if they have no awareness of the other personality that is in control at that time.
    The pitch , cadence and phrasing in her voice on the sex tape was different, her vocabulary was different, and the way she expressed her personality was so completely different from the way she presented herself on the stand – let alone the physicality- it really was like it was another person. And she made every effort to convey that in fact “it wasn’t really her” and she didn’t mean it, was faking orgasm etc. when asked to explain her comments to Travis.
    The person that she was in the pre trail interviews ( 48 hours etc.) was yet another personality- compassionate, chaste, smiling, engaging, relaxed posture, yet lively. Speaking briskly at times and very responsive, cooperating fully with the interviewer.
    On the stand, holding herself still and erect, speaking slowly and methodically, at times being non responsive to Nurmi or obstreperous to Martinez, she said that she lied in those pre trail interviews because she was ashamed. But there was no appearance of shame when she gave those interviews. So who was ashamed? The person who did the pre trail interviews or the person on the stand?
    The post verdict interviews , I still don’t understand what she was trying to accomplish- only that some part of her had not been heard from and needed to speak out.
    There is such a disconnect between all of her presentations it seems to go beyond lying into some other stratosphere.

    ___ Who you have touched upon several incidences behaviors etc that me wonder about a diagnosis of DID for JA

    Another thing is that she is ambidextrous this is often the case with those with DID and watching JA she seemed to have set times when she used a specific hand- almost as if the choice of hand coincided with an elevation in stressors or something…

    another possible marker for me was the smoke smell in the rental car- we never did get an answer for that-

    is it possible that JA in a dissociative state smokes?

    then we have her buying two of everything- and mismanaging money this could be because she isnt aware of doing it or buying it for an alter etc

    You brought up lying- well those who are said to have DID are often accused of lying when they sincerely believe they are telling the truth- they really didnt do it or cant remember doing it

    Another thing is JA several times referred to “we” when only she was said to be present-

    Another marker which may fit JA is impulsive traveling or wandering away from home and ending up somewhere and not recalling how you got there…
    This could be JA whole trip and we all know she was prone to impulsively travel

    Being “moody” is another possible marker

    Forgetting people or whole events from ones life- during trial when the kicking of Mom came up JA sincerely IMO had no recollection of this instance, she actually turned to Wilmott and said i never did that and Wilmott corrected her

    The fact that JA didnt record certain events in her journal- this could be because the “alter” that was journaling was unaware of it or thought it to be not Noteworthy….

    And what of the friend who called Mom to ask for help for JA- why didnt we hear from them? who were they and what do they know?

    These are just some of the things that stood out to me along with all those you mentioned. The police tapes really stand out- her singing her hiding under the table her talking to herself and responding it seems to a conversation from inside her own head as well as laughing out loud…and all the rest… Even the Gcans and Ryan Burns could be explained away by dissociation

    She actually never remembered adjusting him or keeping the can because she had lost time she was in a dissociative state.
    The same might be said for the license plate and the skaters too

    Can we really definitely say she doesnt suffer from DID for all we know the skaters were her other alters…as was the school girl sex kitten …

    Who you ended the post with this thought:
    Bottom line, defense didn’t plead insanity. Whacha gonna do?–
    From JAs post interviews it seems she doesnt know why they didnt go for a diminished capacity also.

    Blink you responded with:

    I brought up the DID issue following my review of her LE interviews, iirc. I saw that and some possible spectral issues NOS (non-specific). I noted while she repeatedly lined up her waters, faced them in the right direction, placed the pencils across the top, etc. I am cautious about saying that because it can certainly be a symptom of anxiety, deferring one’s mind from fear and determining that in an adult at this stage and set of circumstances is really difficult and probably futile.

    All of these traits could fit into other anxiety disorders- or just be due to stress…But again OCD is said to be a common trait of DID as is lying BPD etc

    You went on:
    There is no doubt in my mind that the reason there was not a mental defense is because evaluations of her concluded she did not qualify for the burdens associated with that for a judge to approve the plea in the first place.

    -
    I hope this is the case Blink, but I have to wonder if it is because this condition takes time and alot of experience etc inorder to diagnosis- and from what I can figure out none of the proper testing was done.

    You wrote Blink:
    That said, I am not sure at all that the complex psychiatric concepts and legal standards were not beyond the assets of her defense team either.

    _
    Agreed time and money definitely could have played a huge part in the theory the defense decided to go with, as well as if the theory was “winnable” and IMO DID is always a risk as most people just write it off as a joke or a ploy custom made for criminbal trials…

    You:

    It looks like this jury believed ALV however, which is compelling and I say again, JM treatment of her did not help.
    _
    it seems a couple did, and I agree if this is the case then JM didnt help- but if they truly believed ALV why give her murder1 as if one believes she was a victim of DV then isnt it highly more likely she did in fact black out and kill him in a state of extreme fear???

    You wrote in conclusion:

    I think we all agree that in-patient observation and other specific conditions would need to occur before anyone would ever really know wth is up with her. I also suspect there is traits she has that even in a controlled setting most evals would miss.

    B

    _
    YeP Blink I wholeheartedly concur.

    AJMO
    Peace

    Cont Part 5

  28. Mom3.0 says:

    Here is the scale I mentioned previously tell me just from what little we know of JA that DID could be ruled out with the DES

    Doesnt seem likely more stringent tests eval. interviews etc should have been warranted if her answers are onpar with what we know:

    Copied from The Ross Institute’s Web Page)

    **The DES is posted on this Web page with permission of Dr. Putnam. It is in the public domain and can be copied and used without further permission.**

    The Dissociative Experiences Scale (DES) was developed by Eve Bernstein Carlson, Ph.D. and Frank W. Putnam, M.D. The overall DES score is obtained by adding up the 28 item scores and dividing by 28: this yields an overall score ranging from 0 to 100.

    DIRECTIONS
    This questionnaire consists of twenty-eight questions about experiences that you may have in your daily life. We are interested in how often you have these experiences. It is important, however, that your answers show how often these experiences happen to you when you are not under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
    To answer the questions, please determine to what degree, the experience described in the question applies to you and circle the number to show what percentage of the time you have the experience.
    [Each question was followed by the direction to: Circle a number to show what percentage of the time this happens to you. An answer grid followed each question, which has also been removed to save space, of:
    (NEVER) 0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 (ALWAYS)]

    1. Some people have the experience of driving or riding in a car or bus or subway and suddenly realizing that they don’t remember what has happened during all or part of the trip.

    2. Some people find that sometimes they are listening to someone talk and they suddenly realize that they did not hear part or all of what was said.

    3. Some people have the experience of finding themselves in a place and having no idea how they got there.

    4. Some people have the experience of finding themselves dressed in clothes that they don’t remember putting on.

    5. Some people have the experience of finding new things among their belongings that they do not remember buying.

    6. Some people sometimes find that they are approached by people that they do not know who call them by another name or insist that they have met them before.

    7. Some people sometimes have the experience of feeling as though they are standing next to themselves or watching themselves do something and they actually see themselves as if they were looking at another person.

    8. Some people are told that they sometimes do not recognize friends or family members.

    9. Some people find that they have no memory for some important events in their lives (for example, a wedding or graduation).

    10. Some people have the experience of being accused of lying when they do not think that they have lied.

    11. Some people have the experience of looking in a mirror and not recognizing themselves.

    12. Some people have the experience of feeling that other people, objects, and the world around them are not real.

    13. Some people have the experience of feeling that their body does not seem to belong to them.

    14. Some people have the experience of sometimes remembering a past event so vividly that they feel as if they were reliving that event.

    15. Some people have the experience of not being sure whether things that they remember happening really did happen or whether they just dreamed them.

    16. Some people have the experience of being in a familiar place but finding it strange and unfamiliar.

    17. Some people find that when they are watching television or a movie they become so absorbed in the story that they are unaware of other events happening around them.

    18. Some people find that they become so involved in a fantasy or daydream that it feels as though it were really happening to them

    19. Some people find that they sometimes are able to ignore pain.

    20. Some people find that that they sometimes sit staring off into space, thinking of nothing, and are not aware of the passage of time.

    21. Some people sometimes find that when they are alone they talk out loud to themselves.

    22. Some people find that in one situation they may act so differently compared with another situation that they feel almost as if they were two different people.

    23. Some people sometimes find that in certain situations they are able to do things with amazing case and spontaneity that would usually be difficult for them (for example, sports, work, social situations, etc.).

    24. Some people sometimes find that they cannot remember whether they have done something or have just thought about doing that this (for example, not knowing whether they have just mailed a letter or have just thought about mailing it).

    25. Some people find evidence that they have done things that they do not remember doing.

    26. Some people sometimes find writings, drawings, or notes among their belongings that they must have done but cannot remember doing.

    27. Some people sometimes find that they hear voices inside their head that tell them to do things or comment on things that they are doing.

    28. Some people sometimes feel as if they are looking at the world through a fog so that people and objects appear far away or unclear.

    SCORING

    (This is taken from the Ross site, and explains a bit about the scoring of this test. This is part of a much longer clinical paper concerning the DES and it’s clinical validity.)

    As reviewed in Chapter Six, the higher the DES score, the more likely it is that the person has DID. In a sample of 1,051 clinical subjects, however, only 17% of those scoring above 30 on the DES actually had DID (Carlson et al., 1993). The DES is not a diagnostic instrument. It is a screening instrument. High scores on the DES do not prove that a person has a dissociative disorder, they only suggest that clinical assessment for dissociation is warranted. This is how we report DES scores in our consults, as within or not within the range for DID, and as consistent or not consistent with the clinical and DDIS diagnosis of DID. DID subjects sometimes have low scores, so a low score does not rule out DID. In fact, given that in most studies the average DES score for a DID patient is in the 40s, and the standard deviation about 20, roughly about 15% of clinically diagnosed DID patients score below 20 on the DES.

    —AJMO

    and i appreciate anyone who made it through my posts

    Peace

  29. whodunnit says:

    Mom 3.0
    WOW!! what great post, thank you so much for all the time and effort this has taken from your day!! Please know I appreciate the education, and I am sure I am not the only one…
    This is what I am trying to make sense of- what is at the core of Arias incarnations- each one with different realities, different physical, emotional and intellectual attributes. Different vocabularies, postures affectations , to say nothing of hairstyles, a fairly consistant means of expression for her. Out of curiosity I do check out the artwork she continues to offer up- her drawings don’t show a cohesive style or identity either, aside from the detailed pencil work itself. And it appears that lately she has moved away from women’s faces to some geometric patterns and a cats eye in close up.
    The only thing that all of her ” personas” ( for want of a better word) and story lines have in common is that in every scenario, she is the helpless victim. But why wouldn’t she play the victim all the way to the end and throw herself at the mercy of the court and beg for forgiveness, as a helpless victim would do?
    Is it that the experience of being in jail for five years forged this person we see now- the person who has the perspective on all of the past lying, the ” secretary /librarian/ lawyer” who has swopped in to clean up after all the other Jodies and make sure she ( this ” new person”) lives?
    She presented her allocution with such detachment from her past, emphasizing what she would do in the future, as though the person who murdered Travis simply didn’t exist. And her realization that Travis family was in pain, and that she shouldn’t want for the death penalty- she said this all came from talking to her mom, her sister- as though this would never have occurred to her unless they had mentioned it. How dissassociated is that?
    I think the only truly reliable truth she has said is that she does not want to die. And if this is really just a matter of a woman planning a murder that went wrong, then trying to cover it up over and over again, well maybe it is that cliche of ” sometimes a cigar is just a cigar”…?
    I remain flummoxed and fantasizing that one day we will read the news that she has finally confessed all….. and so grateful that you are sharing your knowledge!

  30. Ragdoll says:

    @ Mom3.0 says:
    May 28, 2013 at 11:52 am

    …and Grace, Rose and fellow Blinksters

    Mom, your sweetness means the world to me. There are such big hearts on this site. I AM a better person for knowing and learning from you all.

    I need to clarify that my comment wasn’t meant to discredit or insult anyone. I have great respect for those who have worked hard in life and education, so that they may offer credible opinions. That is the heart of this site.

    My sincere apologies if I offended anyone. I just feel that everyone here has something to offer. Obviously some of us are going to be perpetual students in this kind of arena. This betters me….and how I can help others in my life. When i see a comment that favours, well….it brings back to elementary school. You knew who the teacher’s pets were…..the bright, smart ones. Maybe this is just my issue and too bad for me…it’s no one else’s business.

    That being said, I intend to respect that this isn’t my home or my rules. I’ll continue to read and learn from y’all. It’s a privilege. Please forgive me.

    Posted respectfully…..peace and love be with you all….always and all ways xo

  31. Ragdoll says:

    @ whodunnit says:
    May 28, 2013 at 8:00 pm

    That is so kind, friendy. Thank you for reaching out. Big hugs~~~

  32. Ragdoll says:

    @ friendLY

    Thank you for being so gracious. Thank you for hearing me out and being a genuine critical thinker ;)

    Moving on…learning from stumbling….but great people hang here. How blessed am I?

    Heart & Hugs FriendLY
    B <—– back at you 100 fold. xo

  33. Jden says:

    In full realization that Willmott and Nurmi were assigned this defense, and attorney/client care aside, their actions in the eyes of God are troublesome, including the vehement stance of lies, flagrant parade of pornography, unsubstantiated vilification of Travis and now the possibility of unethical practices to protect future appeals.
    I would not believe any simple statement from either of defense counsel if I met them on the street, any more than I would JA. I fear that this trial and representation of JA may have drawn them down to depths they never once knew. The effluence of evil. Add that to the list of travesties that Jodi Ann Arias has effected in this matter.
    Most of us can turn our backs and walk away from people like Arias, however some are exposed by relevant conditions. I sincerely fear for all who are intertwined in this story. Arias is evil personified. A wolf in sheep’s clothing. Terrifying.
    Luke 12:20. God removes souls. “You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you.” At some point Arias’ soul was removed. She is a living, breathing organism attempting to blend within an environment of humans. No, not even an animal as I would not classify her along with any living thing that has a soul. I do not believe rehabilitation will ever be viable. She is devoid of humanness.

    In response to a question above about Arias’ far-reaching abilities beyond prison walls, we have already seen her footprints on the street and we have seen the rapid spread of the plumes of evil.
    Unfortunately, evil does not simply melt into the ground like the wicked witch. How much simpler that would be.

    While I agree with your comments about Jodi from a spiritual perspective, I do not agree that Fred and Wilma were not simply doing their jobs and one should keep in mind that the prosecution introduced all that porn themselves, let’s all agree that the jurors concur that Jodi was her own worst witness and let’s keep in mind how many times counsel has motioned to withdraw in this case- to be denied.

    We do not have a perfect system of jurisprudence in this country, but it is the only one I personally want to live under, ever.

    B

  34. GraceintheHills says:

    GraceintheHills says:
    May 28, 2013 at 11:12 pm

    Blink, I totally agree. Whatever tingling they may have felt was totally overridden by the sheer magnitude and horrific nature of this crime. I would bet their lives are forever changed by what they saw in those photos. God bless them.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~
    A shout out to Ragdoll!! ♥ Have a blessed day!

    Yep, and I for one would like to understand what portion of the testimony garnered their collective conclusion that Jodi was abused and by whom. It seemed to me that they strongly believed in the fact that Jodi became this different person from the time she met Travis and that the implication was it was him, and not her childhood, but I would sincerely wish to know what that was based on.

    I continue to not understand how they reached that opinion unless it was based on some of the off color and perhaps mutually abusive conversations via text and email?

    Was it the opinion of the jury that Travis seeing multiple women potentially behind her back when they were not dating but courting or whatever?

    For me, if you believe she is a lying sack, which they all did, how did they believe she was abused when she had free will?

    B

  35. whodunnit says:

    Some food for thought, when considering of Arias’s portrayal of herself :
    ( snipped from on line google search ” what is the difference between lying and acting’, don’t know who wrote this, no name attached)

    On Acting and Lying
    Many things can be said about the similarities of acting and lying. Both spin a falsehood, leading the audience deeper and deeper into the trap until the very end when they are released. Both force the performer into a position where they are not entirely themselves and not entirely in control of what they say or do. Liars and actors wear many masks. These masks can be literal changes in the physical nature of the person, or they can be a change in character. Character changes can often consume a liar or an actor, creating an indistinguishable difference between the person and the mask. An actor is a fantastic liar, and the liar a fantastic actor, but the actor lies in for other, while the liar lies for himself.
    Acting is an art. It is a lie designed to entertain. Both the audience and the actors know that. Still, an actor uses all of his might, creativity, and will to convince the audience that he is the character being portrayed and the lines spoken come strait from his heart. He convinces the hearers to cry when he cries, laugh when he laughs, and mourn when he dies. If an actor can do this, he is a terrific liar, and when that curtain rises again he can see the faces of those he has tricked and say with pride he deceived them, and the audience will stand and applaud him for a lie well spoken. Then they will move into the aisle, still mesmerized, telling their companions what a wonderful job he did. When his lie is through, everyone is pleased and he gets to go home. His lie ends at the stage. No one is hurt, and everyone gets to go home satisfied. No harm has been done, no crime committed.
    The cloth woven from an actor’s lie and the web spun from a liar’s lie can look very similar when viewed from a distance, but an actor has no ill intent when he begins the first thread. A liar’s lie is begun with a thread spun from spider’s silk dipped in tar. As he weaves, his lie sticks to his fingers and his arms, quickly wrapping itself around his body. The only way for a liar to keep from suffocating is to keep weaving. He weaves not only himself, but others into the cloth of his lie as well, creating a mess that he dares not absterge. He continues to lie, but he cannot lie forever. Eventually someone discovers him, wrapped in a cocoon of deceit, protecting himself from those he believes to be a threat, and when the threads are cut away he is condemned to death by those he has suffocated in his cloth. When a liar’s lie is done, no one is happy. Everyone feels betrayed, and the condemned is left to clean up the mess he created.
    Many kinds of lies can be spun from the simplest threads. An actor uses his lies to create a shining garment, a beautiful creation that is to be admired and talked about long after the lie is complete. With the same lie, a liar will create a brittle, contemptuous cocoon of trapped souls and falsehoods, for which he must be condemned. An actor is the best of liars, but a liar is the worst of actors.

  36. PamSpaz says:

    Well here is my 2 cents for what its worth (2 cents probably lol). I do not think Jodi has DID. We all have different aspects to us in our home lives, on the job, with our friends, with our other halves. The things about us that do not change in any setting are the things that make us who we are at our core. Jodi is an empty shell with no core. I see her as someone that has lied and manipulated prior to and after killing Travis. The things we saw of her after the fact were nothing more than an act to get away with what she has done and to not be seen as a brutal killer. She is very concerned of her reputation and how others view her. To me this is why she could not remember stabbing him so many times and slitting his throat. Personally I think she remembers more than what she admits to. She will never admit to what really happened. I also think we will see another side of Jodi in the next trial. Come July 18th, she will have spent her jail time being in her cell 23 hours out of 24. She will not be in singing contests and doing any of the other things she was able to do prior to this trial and her conviction. I think this will probably have an affect on her, OR we may just see the same old Jodi that is unaffected by anything (flat affect) with the exception of whatever acting she needs to do to convince the jury to give her life instead of death. I think she would have more bouts of memory loss if she did indeed have DID. All she cannot remember is the stabbing. Also what would have been her severe trauma to have caused DID? A wooden spoon? I have read and appreciated all of the posts and posters here. I am just not convinced of the DID for a variety of reasons. That said I am certainly no expert in this arena.

  37. whodunnit says:

    blink writes:
    It seemed to me that they strongly believed in the fact that Jodi became this different person from the time she met Travis and that the implication was it was him, and not her childhood, but I would sincerely wish to know what that was based on.

    ——
    So far, only the foreman has referred to Arias as ” a normal girl until she met Travis”, but I agree it is logical to assume that the 4 jurors who would not vote DP may have felt the same.
    Defense spent days ( weeks?) with Arias recounting her past , only getting to the crime itself in the last days of her direct. Martinez cut to the chase in cross, primaraly focusng on time frame immediately preceding and following the crime. because he did not ( and could not, in some instances) focus on Arias as aberrant before she met Travis- the pot on the roof, the concerns of her parents, dropping out and leaving home on bad terms when she was fifteen, to live with a guy who believed in Vampires, her propensity for magical thinking,moving in with her boss, a man twenty years older, inability to hold a job,shirking financial responsibilities.
    Because Martinez didn’t go into detail rebutting her past, it may have appeared to the jury that there were no red flags in her past. This opened the door to ALV persecution of Travis as perpetrator, Arias as victim, based on Arias claim that she had never experienced any dv before Travis. Looking at Arias lack of boundaries throughout her life, I find that claim hard to believe, but thats me.
    Maybe most importantly, in the first phase, the reasonable person standard was adjusted to ” what a reasonable person would do if they had been a victim of domestic violence. So although the jury did find her guilty of pre med ( and that could have been in as little of two seconds ) and aggravation, they may have taken the ” if that person had been a victim of domestic violence” as a fact instead of a concept up for grabs.
    The foreman has many legal duties, among them, ” Confirming that each juror understands the deliberation procedures and knows that each member is allowed to ask questions s/he may have concerning the case”.
    The fact that the foreman offered a deadlock only hours after initial discussions, thought Arias would get life if the jury deadlocked, claims he was shocked when he heard the word ” mistrial”, states he considered Martinez style insulting,tells me that the foreman himself did not understand the penalty phase instructions enough to ask the questions that could have led the jury to an agreement.
    The fact that the foreman broke his agreement with the other jurors and spoke out immediately, also tells me that he considered himself top dog , and perhaps- maybe – had some influence on wavering jurors who weren’t sure how to figure their own thoughts on alledged abuse into the equation before them. They also could have just freaked out at the last minute when the reality set in that they had to decide whether another person should live or die.
    —–
    Off Topic:
    if the defense and State agree that Arias has mental problems, is she receiving any treatment for that while she awaits the next step? i would think at this point it would behoove the defense to bring in
    the psychs for more evaluation or even just counselling,- but I don’t know what i rights a convict has in terms of treatment, when , how, or if any.

    2. Confirming that each juror understands the deliberation procedures and knows that each member is allowed to ask questions s/he may have concerning the case.

  38. Rose says:

    I feel Fred & Wilma had an incredibly weak defense given the smoke & mirrors BS available to them that went unused.
    For example Searcey said others in CA coukd attest to TA DV-style treatment of Arias. They were not subpoenaed.
    Brewer said others could & wanted to testify in mitigation. They were not subpoenaed.
    Also, did this come in? Imo if defense goal was to trash TA, this is best evidence.
    TA as motivator at a Hughes’-sponsored mtg:
    http://youtu.be/z9gAfmGdm_I
    9:30-9:50
    13:00-14:00

    Chris Hughes, 6 figure Ring & God
    http://youtu.be/PcPzP1H0lQw

    I cannot say Blink
    jurors thot she was abused.
    My feeling is some felt, as Brewer, as Foreman,
    she was mentally ill, and/or the story line
    of either side in the evidence presented did not add up
    to a death verdict. These were failures in evidence of both
    prosecution & defense as you have pointed out exist

  39. Malty says:

    The jurors seem to be reasonable people, the ones who have talked
    So far
    I am trying to listen closely to what they say
    Now I hear age of the jurors may have had something to do with it
    Which I have wondered as Jodi would be a grand daughters age for some
    What ever I just hope this is winding down

  40. lyla says:

    “I continue to not understand how they reached that opinion unless it was based on some of the off color and perhaps mutually abusive conversations via text and email?
    ——————————————————————
    I think it was the texts and emails but I wasn’t aware all the jurors thought she was abused. Only the foreman.

  41. lyla says:

    Regarding Arias trial and DP, Kim Goldman’s remarks.

    Kim Goldman: We have degraded the death penalty

    http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/05/28/jodi-arias-death-penalty-kim-goldman-ron-goldman-oj-simpson?hpt=hp_bn17

  42. PamSpaz says:

    http://media2.abc15.com/html/pdf/Petition.pdf

    It is my understanding there is a hearing today on this motion. Trying to take death off the table due to the sequence of events re gun shot first or last.

    This does and should have legs, although I realize nobody wants to hear that.

    It is inconceivable to me how the court allowed Flores to deliver what is essentially a medically founded opinion entirely via hearsay without so much as an exhibit of proof or affadavit from the ME. Imm Poe See bla I tell you.

    This was an aggravator hearing, in which the only finding for F6 was testimony that did not come from the ME, was openly refuted by the ME at trial, as well as Flores stating he was on the receiving end of a misunderstanding of information of a homicide case he was in charge of.

    I know I have been barking about this since then, and it may get bumped to the 9th circuit, but I think that this is the best solution for the State there is. There was no investigative new evidence via diligence whatsoever that contributed to Horn’s opinion.

    I say give in so the temptation of the 9th is not to overturn the verdict based on what is really a reversible error in my opinion. The State changed it’s entire theory once they got to trial and the none of it was based on anything newly discovered.

    Sigh.

    B

  43. GraceintheHills says:

    http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/central_phoenix/Jodi-Arias-case-Arizona-Supreme-Court-denies-review-in-Valley-murder-case

    Does not surprise me.

    Right, not ripe, but I still say this is coming back on appeal. I could not tell- but I assume it was without opinion?
    B

  44. PamSpaz says:

    This does and should have legs, although I realize nobody wants to hear that.

    ——————————————————————
    Agree with you it has legs, but have since heard the AZ supreme court declined the appeal. Is that what you meant when you said get bumped to the 9th circuit? To clarify, since it was declined is it now an appellette issue for the 9th circuit?

    Also even though it has legs are there still issues that make this a DP case? Could there be a swap so to speak?

    Yes, they are not going to hear it until appeal, imo, and also, this case is pending on the docket so far. Nurmi must do this to preserve appeal.

    B

  45. GraceintheHills says:

    whodunnit says:
    May 29, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    if the defense and State agree that Arias has mental problems, is she receiving any treatment for that while she awaits the next step? i would think at this point it would behoove the defense to bring in the psychs for more evaluation or even just counselling,- but I don’t know what i rights a convict has in terms of treatment, when , how, or if any.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    @Who, pre-trial detainees and those who have been convicted can receive treatment for mental illness in correctional settings. We know from Dr. Samuels testimony that JA has been assessed by a psychiatrist and has been prescribed antidepressants and anxiolytics during her incarceration. Generally, in jail settings, psychotherapy is not offered, but some short term counseling may be available for inmates who request it.

  46. Rose says:

    @Blink. this was the appeal on that issue. per press article, appeal rejected by mid-level State Crt & AZ Supreme Court. Aint gonna be amy more on that issue. Federal Supreme Court will take State cases turning on questions of Federal law. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States but not this one where it’s never been heard

    I was referring to dealing with the issue in future appellate motions post conviction and sentencing Rose, yes, this is a dead issue but preserved for the record. This appeal is not considered post-conviction. The request for argument was filed over 3 months ago.

    B

  47. Rose says:

    well, this was one way for Arias’ attorneys to tick off J Stephens the Sentencer big time
    http://media2.abc15.com/html/pdf/Petition.pdf
    dice rollers who belong in Vegas imo.

  48. Rose says:

    @Blink. on re- reading your comment:
    Do you mean State Supremes rejected the appeal without opinion as it is not ripe unless or until a death penalty verdict issues & that verdict is under appeal for this and/or other issues?
    I misunderstood. That would make sense.

    Interlocutory v post conviction relief
    B

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