Jodi Arias Trial Verdict IS IN: GUILTY Of MURDER In The Slaying Of Travis Alexander
Image courtesy Arias
Phoenix, AZ- In the 4 month long trial of Jodi Ann Arias for the murder of her brief boyfriend Travis Victor Alexander, the jury deliberating since last Friday has arrived at a verdict in her case. Arias was found guilty of the pre-meditated murder of Travis Alexander on June 4th, 2008.
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Eloise
The only thing that I can believe about Jodi’s behavior is what can be proven by physical evidence or a witness that is reliable. This woman is an accomplished story teller, having practiced for at least half her life.
The car in the middle of the driveway makes no sense. She would have to take the chance that someone in the immediate neighborhood would have noticed it. This is her fantasy that she was not trying to hide her behavior.
Peace PamSpaz says:
June 2, 2013 at 11:38 am
Mom3.0
Thank you so much for your time, thoughts and interest in what my thoughts are. Much appreciation and respect for you as well as the other posters here.
–
Ditto to the extreme PamSPaz
You :
Why especially mental health and determining a diagnosis with respect to truth and facts?
I think we should strive for the truth not especially or with more weight given to mental health, but in every area. To me the path to the truth and the path to a proper diagnosis are not the same but can possibly intersect.
–Great points PamSpaz and I am sorry if it seemed as if I meant to disregard the truth except in cases dealing w/ mental health as that is not my opinion
I was trying to convey my thoughts about how LE The prosecution the defense and medical professionals should all work together inorder to better protect and prevent
But yes certainly The truth of a diagnosis matters.
let me try to explain better
Have you heard of the case of the “crazy” swedish twins?-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdiISQdjwd0
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210953/Woman-locked-making-mad-dash-M6-stabbed-stranger-death-day-released-jail.html#ixzz19AoyJb
two twins ran out into traffic and were struck by cars- only to try to escape again both were acting extremely aggressive to police and paramedics- both acting quite delusional and in the days prior had been acting bizarre
one sister Ursala suffered broken legs and the other, Sebina- after losing consciousness seemed fine-
Sabina was arrested for hitting a LEO and trespassing on a roadway and was sentenced to one day- she was soon released
after a police surgeon, a social worker, and a consulting psychiatrist deemed her to be not a threat to her self or others- KIM this was done without a thorough investigation without a thorough evaluation – without reviewing any of her prior medical records – without a call home to discuss with family members etc. add to this not one of these professionals viewed the footage of the roadway, before making the decision-
Sabina was released with no where to go and met up with a good Samaritan who took her in and sadly he was murdered by her stabbed in his kitchen 4-5 x in the matter of 70 seconds-
Had a thorough workup been undertaken a man might still be alive-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210953/Woman-locked-making-mad-dash-M6-stabbed-stranger-death-day-released-jail.html#ixzz19AoyJb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_and_Sabina_Eriksson
Sabina like JA was described as odd, bizarre-strange-throughout her LE tape
But as the LEO said we cant arrest someone for being odd..
no, but we can subject them to the most stringent mental health workups inorder to better learn/understand, inorder to better protect/ prevent- and inorder to aid justice
Especially after someone is accused of murdering another and exhibits some of the behaviors JA did in her tapes, and certainly after loved ones come forward to confess a history of odd behaviors etc…
We asked how could a woman of Jas size and weight incapacitate a man of Travis size and strength watch the video it makes you think
also we discussed JA not having any injuries to herself…that we know of-
Sabina was hit by a car was knocked unconscious fought with police and still there were no visible injuries and she immediately jumped up and began running again- she attacked and murdered a man- hit herself in the head with a hammer- and yet she kept running she wrestled with another grown man and then hut him in the head then ran to jump from a 40 foot bridge- and survived-
- Again Flores told Jas mom she would get a thorough work up yet clearly the fact that the DES did not bring about more testing shows a thorough evaluation was not undertaken-
by either side- and that is not good
The truth matters
We all come into these trials wanting to know the truth wanting to know what happened-yet the trials and the mental evaluations, the forensics, the investigation etc more often then not fall short
None of it necessarily focus’ on the truth –
and it would seem without knowing the truth, it leaves open the very real possibility that they, we, and the experts got it wrong
Furthermore, How can Drs and criminologists researching and studying this case and others rely on misdiagnosis, faulty theories and shoddy investigations to gain knowledge to help prevent and protect? IDK
Cont part 2
AJMO
Peace
cont part 2
PamSpaz says:
June 2, 2013 at 11:38 am
Not all criminals including murderers have mental illness and likewise not all people with mental illness become criminals.
–
Agreed and that is why determining the truth of a criminals disorders is so important as perhaps with further study and research etc Drs may some day be able to figure out why all people with the same mental disorders do not become criminals
perhaps it goes further than just a choice…perhaps there are other factors at play that with further research can be isolated
You wrote;
As for the truth and what is presented in court, we should not be allowing defendants to make claims against the victim without any proof at all like we had in this case.
—I agree with this wholeheartedly as with rape cases – I agree
but in truth there was some evidence presented IRT verbal/emotional abuse was there not?-
and even though I did not believe JAs claims of DV the defense was correct, many victims of DV never report, never journal- never show outward signs of physical abuse…
so – IMO not having any tangible evidence of DV does not mean there was no abuse-
I think the court was right to allow JA this defense- although it angered me too
I understand the need to let the jury decide the weight and truthfulness of a DV claim-
I try to think of it in reverse;
Lets say Travis had went to LE with his claims of stalking.. lets say he was being subjected to DV both emotional and physical at the hands of JA (which i believe may be the truth) TA would have had little to no proof of these claims-
In fACT most men wouldnt- they dont journal about these sort of issues and the physical abuse they suffer at the hands of a female may not leave tell tale marks and most wouldnt think to take pictures Does this mean they should not try to get help from LE and the courts?
…
So IMO it favored the cause of justice to allow this defense
but I agree with you IRT the pedo story
There seemed to be absolutely no evidence of this at all and seemed only to be offered up as a way to hurt Travis-
You (or another poster) stated that we should not be pitting one expert against another with the intent of winning. I completely agree with this and also agree that there does need to be a proper diagnosis with respect to mental health.
Thanks , and I do understand how hard this would be and I am not sure if it couldbe accomplished but we have to try – and I agree that we would have to work to ensure these defenses dont let the killer off with little more than a slap on the wrist with no mental health care or follow-up after release
Take for instance the Swedish twin case-
Sabina pled to manslaughter due to diminished capacity- both defense and prosecution agreed she was essentially insane at the time of the murder but wasnt by the time of her trial- the judges hands were tied-
(it wasnt trial by jury)
The judge was unable to sentence her to a mental institution for an extended period of years until she was better…and due to the plea he could sentence her to was 5 years..with no mandatory mental health care or supervision after release…clearly not good for the protection of Sabina her children herself or for society.
and as for her sister she lives in the USA and clearly she wasnt all there either and she never received a proper diagnosis nor any treatment either…
Sabina at trial was said to suffer from a “puff of madness” … well she isnt cured and no one can say if or when this puff will return and who will suffer next time…
So yeah the truth matters IRT diagnosis sentencing follow up safety prevention etc….but we have to make sure that the truth doenst let anyone off scott-free in one way of another
AJMO
Cont part 3
cont part 3
PamSpaz says:
June 2, 2013 at 11:38 am
I am just not so sure it should be the burden of the justice system to obtain an indepth analysis, to me this should occur before that if we are talking about educating and prevention.
—
I understand and agree with you to a certain degree PamSpaz
But IMO
If anything I think cases like that of the Swedish twins proves that it should be the burden of the justice system to obtain an indepth analysis-
Besides we are already being stuck with the bill for mental health workups via the state and the defense (if court-appointed)
shouldnt we have a say in whther or not an objective thorough evaluation is given vs those given/chosen simply to “win” the case- truth be damned?
Wouldnt it be more wise to spend the money to overhaul this aspect of our justice system in way that in the long run is better cost effective as well as being better able to prevent and protect we the people?
I do agree with you PamSpaz evaluations and mental healthcare etc should occur before a person commits a crime which may be even more possible if we study other criminals
You wrote:
Before I continue, I just want to say also that I do not think there would have been any analysis/diagnosis in this case if not for the defense trying to support the fog.
—
maybe not.. but isnt that a problem? I mean we all have said we think Ja isnt quite right- her family said the same-
we all have said there are pieces missing-
Flores said she should receive a complete workup
the tests show she has several markers..
the defense claimed dissociative fog
prosecution claimed BPD
cant they both be Part of the truth?
Neither would excuse her from the crime- she killed him and must be held accountable
Doesnt the correct diagnosis matter to the truth of what happened
and without a complete and thorough objective evaluation can we ever really answer that question?
PamSpaz thanks for cont the discussion with me i appreciate the sharing of ideas
ajmo
Cont part 4
Cont part 4 re PamSpaz
But with hearts, it serves the same function and operates the same in all of us. It is genetics and lifestyle that are different and this is where we learn and prevent.
—
Yes this can be true uou are right, but for some their heart is not the same they are born with murmurs or without a chamber or ventricle or with a hole. etc…
Besides the same can be said fore the mind.,,, most are born with essentially the same working mind, absent deformities or addidictions such as crack babies or those who have fetal alcohol syndrome- or fdevelopmental disabilities etc.
Lifestyles and genetics can effect the mind also- studies and research let us know how to better understand each-
You wrote:
Provided people heed the warnings and take the advice in order to prevent. This is not always the case. With mental health, there are many different diagnosis, not to mention other varying factors and to me no two people even with the same diagnosis will follow in the same path.
–
Yes true but we can learn something new and different from all of them cant we?
You:
Not sure I am expressing my thoughts clearly on this so if there is confusion I completely understand lol. There is already knowledge with respect to behaviors in diagnosis, so the prevention needs to come from educating the parents/caregivers and the public as a whole.
–Youre doing great- and I agree but knowledge is always morphing and changing and in truth mental health strides are far behind that of other medical fields-
For instance until relatively recently we were still lobotomizing those who suffered from depression…and electroshock treatments and think about how doctors at one time treated hysteria … they masturbated the patients to climax inorder to treat them…
and we are still struggling to understand so much especially IRT certain conditions, take schizophrenia
Drs discovered that Schizophrenia sufferers aren’t fooled by an optical illusion known as the “hollow mask” because connections between the sensory and conceptual areas of their brains might be on the fritz. Still ongoing testing is being done to understand and to perhaps utilize this knowledge in coming up with meds and treatments…
snipped from
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/schizoillusion/
and again recently there have been studies into how nicotine may help those who suffer from schizophrenia…
which makes me think perhaps it isnt a good thing that convicts can no longer smoke…maybe they can treat them with nicotine patches?–
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2008/10/14-04.html This needs
My point is how do we know what we dont know as we are all still learning even the experts… certainly, again -when it comes to such a rare possible diagnosis as DID…
AJMO cont part 5
cont part 5
re PamSpaz
you wrote:
There is already knowledge with respect to behaviors in diagnosis, so the prevention needs to come from educating the parents/caregivers and the public as a whole.
— Yes exactly but education comes from studies and studies can and should be done on criminals who suffer from these conditions and we cant know what the exact conditions are unless thesubjects are given very thorough examinations by competent examinars perhaps separate and distinct from the hired experts
You wrote:
This needs to be done long before or even if the justice system becomes involved.
Agreed
You:
As in your heart analogy, a series of questions are asked wrt family history, symptoms etc. to make a diagnosis, treat etc. Possibly when going to the doctor, the questions can include those that relate to mental health so that the dr. can recommend being seen by someone that can analyize and treat that at that stage. This to me would be more of a preventive measure than studying a criminal after the fact.
Yes this might work but this could be an invasion of privacy and for a criminal that aspect would be different-
But with both “patients ” the doc would still run into the problem of whther or not the subject was truthful and forthcoming with info
But yeah its a start…
You:
Can you tell I have so many thoughts? lol. Wish I could articulate them as well as you and others.
—-
I think you are very articulate and I feel much the same – especially when my posts get to wordy I think my points get lost-
im sorry for the length of this- but I didnt want your thoughts to go without a comment as I needed to let you know I read &valued each
Thank you for making your way through them and for sharing your thoughts and ideas with me Pam SPAZ- I think advocacy and change begins with dialog
AJMO
Cont part 6
re pamSpaz
part 6
You wrote:
To me only if the crime was committed because of the mental health. As I mentioned above not all criminals have mental illness and not all people with mental illness commit crimes.
–I can understand your point except how can we know if a crime was or was not committed with the disorder being a factor without a thorough evaluation and diagnosis?
You wrote:
Even with a diagnosis of DID and nothing else changes than I do not think I would believe she truly had a blackout and would stick with my previous opinion that it was a matter of convenience, to save her reputation and how people view her.
– I agree this most definitely could be the case- as you said and I agree criminals lie and they try to cheat the system…
But how can we be sure this is the case with anyone without the proper testing and evaluations?
You wrote:
My reason why is because there is no other instance of memory loss or blackout. So there is no pattern of this behavior.
It seems as if this might be the case but in truth neither the defense or the prosecution went very far in their evaluations of JAs history
and she did seem to have more than 1 instance of memory problems-
and if one is to take her lying or denying as a sign or symptom of DID instead of a fat that she is a major fibber than that too could go to show a possible case of DID
also
memory is a very peculiar thing
see here:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2013/06/02/when-trick-questions-become-false-memories#.UauV3ZVabhE
You wrote:
If there had been a previous diagnosis of DID and a history of blackouts/memory loss then I would be more inclined to believe her testimony re forgetting.
Me too pam Spaz- but again can we rule it out given the fact that the DES was not followed up on ?
You wrote:
I did put aside the sybil effect, when you first posted about the DID. But if she did have DID and this was another personality than I would think the entire murder would be a blackout and not just the most heinous acts of same. I realize that statement does not seem like I put aside the sybil effect, but we only have the one instance of memory loss.
—Understood PamSpaz and I really appreciate youre incorporating my thoughts into your process thats all i can ask for
Later I will share some more on DID perhaps the info will help answer some more of your questions…for me it seems to have spurred more…
ah yes we shall be on overload together…
Thanks for talking with me PamSpaz
AJMO Peace
Blink no I didnt take offense i appreciate you responding- and i appreciate your kind words
malty i could never ignore you as your posts do inspire me to think and to share
malty thank you for your kindness as well
To all, sorry for again for monopolizing the board.
lyla says:
June 5, 2013 at 12:02 pm
(this is snipped from Lyla quoting radar on line):
“If the diagnosis made by the State’s psychologist is correct, the Maricopa County Attorney’s Office is seeking to impose the death penalty upon a mentally ill woman who has no prior criminal history,” Kirk Nurmi and Jennifer Willmott told The Arizona Republic in a statement Tuesday. “Despite Mr. Montgomery’s recent statements to the media, it is not incumbent upon Ms. Arias’ defense counsel to resolve this case.
—————–
WRONG WRONG WRONG.
The State has NO legal duty to offer a plea to Arias, and never did and never will have a legal duty to offer a plea.
As Montgomerey said, he does feel it would be ethical to entertain any plea the Defense offers, but that in no way means that the State has a legal duty to accept a plea that is less than the State, believes is appropriate, period. If the defense wants to resolve this case with a plea, they have to offer it!
Nurmi is repeating himself.The defense is STILL promoting the abuse excuse. They are playing a shell game . If the defense beleives that Arias is mentally ill to the degree that she should be exempt from the DP, it IS INCUMBENT upon THEM to prove it, and that is why they were given a chance to show mitigating factors.
That ship sailed.
The jury already unanimously agreed Arias was guilty of pre med with aggravation. 8 out of 12 jurors voted for DP, and we do not know why the four did not. The only thing that is incumbent upon the State is to decide if they want a second jury or if they will entertain a plea from Arias, which Arias has not yet offered.
The defense claimed that there was emotional abuse, that Arias had amnesia. post traumatic stress, was a victim of DV. They offered this as mitigation, in an effort to excuse the homicide , and get Arias life instead of DP.
In REBUTTAL to the defense expert witness’ claims,The State offered its own expert’s testimony.
DeMarte NEVER testified that Arias mental problems justified killing Travis.
DeMarte testified that in her opinion, Arias did not suffer from amnesia.
DeMarte gave her opinion that the markers for the tests indicated Borderline Personality disorder, not tranisent global amnesia or post traumatic stress due to Travis alleged abuse before she killed him. DeMarte testified that she believed that Arias was lying. ( malingering is the legal word)
AT NO TIME did the State offer opinion that Arias mental State alleviated Arias of responsibility for her actions.
Yet now Nurmi is putting words into the States mouth, saying that because the State said Arias has mental problems, the State is also saying the homicide was not Arias fault.
Anyone who murders someone ( and especially the way Arias did) has mental problems. All criminals have mental problems, otherwise they would act rationally and not break the law.
The question is, and always has been, what is the appropriate punishment.
The first jury already agreed that DP was appropriate punishment for Arias, and in the event of a second jury, that second jury cannot question that. Nor can a second jury question aggravation. That ship has sailed.
Nurmi has put forth so many motions, offered so many contradictory positions, that my head is spinning. Battered woman defense changed to heat of passion at the last minute. Mitigating evidence offered before the mitigation phase, then refusing to offer mitigating testimony during ( appropriate), sentencing phase ,except for Arias allocution. Trying to get recused based myriad of things- from saying that he should be let go because he was going into private practice to claiming that prosector autographing a cane was denying Arias of fair trial …. repeatedly saying he wanted off the case, but not leaving when he actually ( legally) could have left, after the hung jury verdict.
Nurmi’s most glaring contradiction is the accusation that this case has been unfairly ” tried” in the media, and yet he is making a public statement, casting dispersions on the State, with the intention of using the media in the same way he complained about.
Jeesh.
here I am still trying to figure out how Arias entered and left Travis house with no trace except for handprint and hair strands in the bathroom! ( and thanks for answers to my questions about wallet , exit routes of house relative to where phone and washing machine were located)
And by the way- Arias said she was basically raped in the office, bent over the desk- any fingerprints for that?
Easier to ponder that than to make sense of Nurmi’s latest subterfuge.
http://kristinarandle.com/blog/the-jodi-arias-trial-jodi-insanity-and-the-death-penalty/#more-8137
Mom 3.0 – I see your passion and I get your point in regards to a ‘coming together’ of the minds of MH professionals and the criminal justice system. Truth be told however, this would be the dream of every person involved in either one of these fields if there was cooperation from each and every criminal about to go to trial for a heinous act against another human being. So many of these individuals do not see that there is anything wrong with them, and therefore they don’t need to be diagnosed or fixed. They don’t want help and they don’t cooperate well. Do they want to be diagnosed? Only if it would help them get a lesser sentence. The understanding of individuals is like trying to understand the complexities of the universe. To be so burdened with trying to understand each and every criminal behavior or MH behavior that comes through the system on a daily basis would certainly grind the wheels of justice to a stand still. And many times it would only aid in excusing bad behavior.
Please forgive me if I am over-simplifying things. Your research is what great discussion is all about. In an ideal world, this would be the way to go, but then we would have to expect every criminal to think on the same level as rational thinkers. Behavior is often not rationalized and includes many areas of impulse and rage just to name a few. The true heinous acts of murder where the perpetrator is mentally deranged, usually gets the right diagnosis whether the perp wants to cooperate or not. There are some examples provided in the link above. Still some have to be locked away for life.
This is my viewpoint on this subject from my bird’s eye view of the criminal justice system. We do the best we can given the resources available to understand the criminal mind and the minds of those afflicted with MH problems. Because of the closing down of many psychiatric facilities in our nation, the jails and prisons have become the next MH facility for many. It is not ideal, but that’s the way it is now. Each facility has a MH section with a psychiatrist available most days. I don’t feel we turn a blind eye away from anyone.
And the part about the nicotine patches – Do you know what would become of that? Selling them to the highest bidder and/or applying too many at one time because it had a certain effect that they like or something just as stupid. Or someone getting assaulted because he/she wouldn’t give it up. A lot of expense for the taxpayer for a lot of trouble. There’s always a different side to the coin.
Mom3.0 says:
June 5, 2013 at 9:08 pm
You :
Why especially mental health and determining a diagnosis with respect to truth and facts?
I think we should strive for the truth not especially or with more weight given to mental health, but in every area. To me the path to the truth and the path to a proper diagnosis are not the same but can possibly intersect.
–Great points PamSpaz and I am sorry if it seemed as if I meant to disregard the truth except in cases dealing w/ mental health as that is not my opinion
——————————————————–
I think I was misunderstood for this point. I did not think you meant to disregard the truth except in cases dealing w/mental health. What I was wondering was why would the truth about mental health be more important (rather than equally important) than other areas. The truth in other areas to me is just as important.
———————————————————
My response may be a bit out of order, so sorry for that in advance. I had not heard of the crazy twins story before now. In one of the articles you posted wrt the sentence, the judge stated that the crime was because of her mental illness. Can we say the same for JA? Did she kill Travis because of whatever disorder she has? I do not think so. Yes I understand that this is your point exactly in studying criminals. When I said I did not think the burden should be on the justice system, I was not necessarily talking in terms of money. I was mainly saying that at that point it is too late. This is why I offered up an alternative wrt prevention. That being that maybe at the medical level in the questionaire for symptoms, family history etc. that it also include questions wrt mental health so that a referral can be made for a complete evaluation. Additionally another point not clearly made by me is that since we both agree that not all criminals have mental illness and not all people with mental illness commit crimes, than the burden may be a financial one in that we just do not know which criminals committed their crimes because of a mental illness. Yes again this goes towards your point. If there is just a small percentage of criminals commiting crimes because of a mental illness rather than some other reason than it would be a huge expense that could be better spent on prevention in an earlier stage. As an example, before installing a traffic light at a hairy intersection, there would be a number of incidents before determining that need. As I write this it seems a catch 22 in that without the analysis at the criminal level as you suggest, we just do not know that percentage. Perhaps that should be a starting point before full implementation. Conduct a study to determin a plan of action.
——————————————————————-
You wrote;
As for the truth and what is presented in court, we should not be allowing defendants to make claims against the victim without any proof at all like we had in this case.
—I agree with this wholeheartedly as with rape cases – I agree
but in truth there was some evidence presented IRT verbal/emotional abuse was there not?-
——————————————————————-
Yes there was some evidence regarding verbal/emotional abuse. IMO it was not in complete context, but yes there was some proof. In fact I had previously posted that I understood why some of the jurors believed there was verbal abuse. There was no proof whatsoever regarding physical abuse or the pedo claims. Even considering that victims do not report etc. etc., there was also no other person that experienced physical abuse at his hand. There also was no close friend or family member that noted a change in her or saw marks on her. I could be wrong about this but I am of the understanding that even not telling anyone, that a close friend or family member would see a change in the person or see marks ie. bruises or…which would likely be met with an excuse. I bumped into a door, fell down etc. But we had no one whatsoever that could support physical abuse.
——————————————————————-
you wrote:
We asked how could a woman of Jas size and weight incapacitate a man of Travis size and strength watch the video it makes you think
I was not able to watch the video, but I had posted early on why I felt like she did this on her own, including dragging him to the shower. I never felt like she was not able to because of her size and I also do not think that she had help.
———————————————————————
you wrote:
Furthermore, How can Drs and criminologists researching and studying this case and others rely on misdiagnosis, faulty theories and shoddy investigations to gain knowledge to help prevent and protect? IDK
They should not. Garbage in equals garbage out.
——————————————————————-
You wrote:
Before I continue, I just want to say also that I do not think there would have been any analysis/diagnosis in this case if not for the defense trying to support the fog.
—
maybe not.. but isnt that a problem? I mean we all have said we think Ja isnt quite right- her family said the same-
To me not at this point. It was a problem to not have an analysis/diagnosis prior to this when there where indications previously that something was wrong with her. Goes to my point that at this stage it is too late.
———————————————————————
But with hearts, it serves the same function and operates the same in all of us. It is genetics and lifestyle that are different and this is where we learn and prevent.
—
Yes this can be true uou are right, but for some their heart is not the same they are born with murmurs or without a chamber or ventricle or with a hole. etc…
Besides the same can be said fore the mind.,,, most are born with essentially the same working mind, absent deformities or addidictions such as crack babies or those who have fetal alcohol syndrome- or fdevelopmental disabilities etc.
——————————————————————
Point well taken. I did not express myself properly. No matter what environment, genetics or any other… All of our minds operate differently wrt how we think, process information, how we learn, etc. etc. Those are the kind of things I was trying to say wrt comparing to hearts. This may seem a weird kind of a question, but I am going to ask it not necessarily for an answer but to try to make a point. A damaged heart can be replaced with a new heart ie: transplant. If we did the same thing with the mind/brain, would that be considered a brain transplant or a body transplant? Who would that person be? Would he/she be the person of the body or of the mind?
———————————————————————-
You:
Not sure I am expressing my thoughts clearly on this so if there is confusion I completely understand lol. There is already knowledge with respect to behaviors in diagnosis, so the prevention needs to come from educating the parents/caregivers and the public as a whole.
–Youre doing great- and I agree but knowledge is always morphing and changing and in truth mental health strides are far behind that of other medical fields-
———————————————————————-
Yes completely agree knowledge is always morphing and that mental health strides are behind. I remember back in the 70′s when mental health began to make strides. I could be wrong about the timing but I grew up in the 70′s and am not aware of or researched what took place in this area prior to that.
———————————————————————-
I cannot find the part of your post that said that finding the truth about mental health should not be a pass for the criminal. But I did want to point out that your crazy twin story/articles, did exactly that imo. Not previously stated, but this is a fear of mine if the analysis/study is done after the crime has been commited rather than before. People would tend to be lenient on someone that has a mental health problem even if it had nothing at at all to do with the crime. Regardless, I do agree with you that there needs to be an accurate diagnosis whether it is done prior to or after a crime.
Not sure if your part 5 is still in moderation but as of this writing it was not available for me to read.
Thank you so much for the engaging conversation. Much respect for your posts, time, and thought provoking topic.
Some jurors were obviously confused.
“Jodi Arias juror questions the judge wouldn’t ask”
http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2013/06/05/2395217/
Here is a link to the american bar association for court procedure, including plea bargaining, which I alluded to in my previous post. While this site It is NOT specific to Arizona, Arizona is subject to the rules posted here, as I understand it.
http://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/pleabargaining.html
@whodunnit
“The question is, and always has been, what is the appropriate punishment.
The first jury already agreed that DP was appropriate punishment for Arias, and in the event of a second jury, that second jury cannot question that. Nor can a second jury question aggravation. That ship has sailed.”
——————————————————————
As we know, the jury was not unanimous for the DP and there seemed to be confusion regarding the Judge’s instructions. Hopefully, (if it goes that far) a second jury will be unanimous. I guess we’ll have some answers before or by June 20th.
WRT Nurmi press release, If you have any questions about what is incumbent upon whom,
here is a thouroughly useful ink, that explains Capital punishment in Arizona in detail.
Note that it is the responsibility of the defense to present mitigating factors, ergo it IS incumbent upon them to show why Arias should not get DP, contrary to Nurmi’s claim otherwise.
In general, a good source of education – long read, but worth it imo.
https://www.azag.gov/sites/default/files/sites/all/docs/Criminal/ccc/Final-CapPun.pdf
Sue says:
June 6, 2013 at 11:04 am
Hi Sue, Thank you so much for stepping up to share your thoughts with me
Your post and the link gave me much to think about and I want to respond in full- I know that can be scary coming from wordy Mom3.0 LOL-
But first if you dont mind Id like to respond to PamSpaz-
I want to let you know that I enjoy reading your posts Sue- you always seem to be able to capture a mood and feeling so well.
to be cont-
Peace
I watched Behind Bars with Nancy Grace and found it interesting
Hope someone else got to see it
Bumping the video reinactment of the shower photo session, posted by jden.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz1ctsFu6bU&feature=youtu.be
It just hit me the other day that Jodi’s claim of TA’s weapon being in the closet was sort of true! It’s where SHE hid her weapon or weapons!
Always a bit of truth in every lie. Ask the c-word.
And thx Blink for your response to Malty. We’re individuals here and we don’t need to read every post or respond if we are addressed. It’s good to remember that we come for our own reasons, write what we write and, hopefully, add to the good of group. We are MORE than just adding up our parts. (If that makes sense!)
RE PamSpaz says:
June 6, 2013 at 1:39 pm
Thanks for cont the convo with me Pam Spaz
You wrote:
I think I was misunderstood for this point. I did not think you meant to disregard the truth except in cases dealing w/mental health. What I was wondering was why would the truth about mental health be more important (rather than equally important) than other areas. The truth in other areas to me is just as important.
———————————————————
No worries PamSpaz I DO think they are equally important but my attempt at underscoring the mental aspect by using the word especially may have threw you off
The reason I was underscoring the mental health aspect IRT truth is because this is one area where it can be determined with testing and evaluations at least to a certain degree.
You wrote: In one of the articles you posted wrt the sentence, the judge stated that the crime was because of her mental illness. Can we say the same for JA?
-No we cant say the same for JA because we dont know the specifics all we have is what was bolstered by the defense and prosecutions theory and experts – and that fell short
again JA was not given a stringent mental health work up –each side chose to run with a specific theory and chose the experts accordingly-
and it seems they chose to narrow the truth to fit their theory
we dont have the truth– the truth was cherry picked
Nurmi came out recently questioning how the prosecution could cont to ask for the death penalty given the fact that they said she suffered from a mental disorder, BPD
Seeming now to embrace the finding of BPD- why didnt the defense do this sooner- they could have while STILL holding on to the dissoiciation
Many have said that the jury found her guilty because they did not believe the dissociative fog nor the childhood abuse nor the “lies” and You have said that she only had one instance of the fog or of blacking out or misremembering
Others said they did not believe her because her tales were too general her behaviors inappropriate lacking emotion lacking details
her testing showed she met the markers for a number of disorders
Most agree she does fit the bill for BPD many think she suffers from other disorders as well ontop of BPD others believe her to be antisocial- still other question schizo or DID etc..
Well if the whole truth was presented by the prosecution- if Nurmi and Wilmott did their duty to the utmost… they would have known that the prosecutions embrace of BPD was a God send- and had they went about it a different way – not going with Pedo story or ALV they could have used the prosecutions own theory and findings to prove their case or least could have gotten alot closer to proving it-
Again why didnt her DES warrant her receiving further testing to rule out DID?
Why did the defense silence Samuels on the stand when he spoke of her suffering from nonspecified disorders?
Why was the prosecution satisfied with naming her as BPD abut yet they didnt elaborate on what that means…
For if they did they would have had no reason to
mock her tales of abuse
mock PTSD when it can go hand in hand
mock the dissociative fog?
mock her strange meandering nonsensical tales/lies
mock her ability to remember
mock her emotions or lack of
mock her ability to recall seemingly unimportant details events or nonnegative memories
As all of these and more can/seem to be characteristics of BPD
More in part 2
AJMo
I think you meant Malingering v Meandering for anyone reading along
B
Part 2
BPD was presented at trial was the complete picture presented?
http://dynamic.uoregon.edu/~jjf/articles/kfborderline2009.pdf
snips-
a review of studies by the APA consistently found that Borderline
patients most frequently display either fearful or unresolved (w/ a
secondary classification of preoccupied) attachment styles
Fearful attachment style is a mistrustful attachment style where the
person longs for intimacy but is afraid of being hurt or rejected
Unresolved with preoccupied features describes an attachment style in
which a person also seeks an intimate relationship but is sensitive to a perceived dependency
Those with unresolved attachment styles display lapses in reasoning when discussing trauma: they will make
nonsensical statements regarding the causes and consequences of the
traumatic event
However chilhood sexual trauma is not the only form of maltreatment associated with BPD
In addition to CSA physical abuse emotional abuse and neglect are
frequently observed and are all associated with the development of
BPD Rates of maltreatment as high as approx 90% have been found in BPD patients
Since both trauma and attachment are related to BPD a parsimonious
and promising model in which to examine would include both these
elements for example Betrayal Trauma Theory
Bowlby 1988 suggests The attachment relationship ” has a key survival
function of its own, namely protection”
BTT utilizes that premise to explain why persons may need to isolate
specific knowledge that threatens survival
BTT proposes that inorder to maintain a necessary attachment to the
caregiver a survivor of parental maltreatment must remain blind to
that betrayal
Experimental work using emotional stroop and directed forgetting tasks has led support to BBT
one may find it more adaptive to remain unaware of that
violation
One mechanism by which this may be accomplished is Dissociation.
Dissociation ” a lack of normal integration of thoughts feelings and
experiences into the stream of consciousness and memory”
Severe dissociation is one of the diagnostic criteria for BPD and has
been suggested to be one of the key, distinguishing components of
BPD Yet how dissociation relates to trauma in those diagnosed with BPD is unclear
Furthermore, one study identified 4 risk factors for dissociation in BPD patients:
“inconsistent treatment by caretaker, sexual abuse by caretaker,
witnessing sexual violence as a child, and adult rape history”
Furthermore there was a positive correlation between severity of
trauma and level of dissociation the authors of this study suggest
“rather than being an intrinsic component of BPD dissociation and BPD
may share childhood trauma as an etiological factor”
BTT would propose that the dissociation seen in BPD is a defense
mechanism against childhood trauma to prevent dangerous information
from entering consciousness
This theory posits the degree of betrayal
associated with the childhood trauma influences the encoding
subsequently accessibility to awareness and responses to event
Memory is ultimately related to dissociation
Study 1996 compared 48 women with BPD to 24 healthy women
Participants in the borderline abused group had better explicit recall to the “to be remembered words” than the control group thus they had enhanced directed forgetting
Abused individuals have an enhanced capacity to focus attention toward and engage in increased elaboration of designated to be remembered info, leading to better selective retrieval.
Jones etal investigated memory in BPD using the autobiographical Memory test
Participants were asked to recall specific events in their own lives when prompted by positive, negative, or neutral cue words.
The BPD group recalled significantly more general events and had more nonresponses to cues than the control group
Furthermore borderline participants responded to negative cues with a disproportionate number of general memories and severity of dissociation.
-End snips
Part 3 re Pam Spaz-
Hey PamSpaz i just wanted to apologize for continually typing your name wrong- it seems to trip my fingers up. No disrespect intended
I thank you for further clarifying your points and as you pointed out yes it is all a catch 22-
but as shown with the prosecution lack of indepth analysis on BPD and the defenses lack of well a defense i have to reiterate the truth has little to do with what is often presented at trial- and it would seem the prosecutions own diagnosis bolsters the validity of some of JAs behaviors emotions and claims …it seems this would be true if one were to take the correlation of BPD to dissociation a step further to possibly include the fog and DID
You wrote:
I cannot find the part of your post that said that finding the truth about mental health should not be a pass for the criminal. But I did want to point out that your crazy twin story/articles, did exactly that imo. Not previously stated, but this is a fear of mine if the analysis/study is done after the crime has been commited rather than before. People would tend to be lenient on someone that has a mental health problem even if it had nothing at at all to do with the crime.
Yes that case fell short in acting from beginning to end i agree that was my reasoning for trying to articulate a need for a independent evaluations on all incoming arrests before trial during and after-
and yes these criminals should be held accountable but it would seem it would benefit all of us if that accountability began and cont with mental health evaluations diagnosis treatments meds etc-
You said-
People would tend to be lenient on someone that has a mental health problem even if it had nothing at at all to do with the crime.
How can it be said that ta persons mental health most definitely had nothing to do with the crime – certainly notr without evaluatiobns- and what constitutes leniency?
Not offering the DP? offering mental health treatment while incarcerated to cont after release? IDK
Thank you for seeing the benefit to having an accurate diagnosis whether it is done prior to or after a crime.
PamSpaz I want to thank you again for sharing your thoughts with me i have learned so much and I do agree with you on so many points and where we dont agree we still are willing to hear one another out
I appreciate and took to heart all of your points and i will be thinking on them frequently as I do think your points are very sound worthy of further pondering as i certainly do not have the answers and my ideas are always changing- thanks for helping to shape them in new directions
AJMO
Peace
@ Mom 3.0 lol at wordy mouth
Jodi Arias Jury Questions And Private Trial Conversations Released By Arizona Court
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/06/jodi-arias-jury-questions_n_3397768.html?ir=Crime
FYI – While there are still some psychiatric institutions still operating for severe cases of the mentally ill, if any of these patients commits a felony crime (such as murder) in that institution, that patient is sent to jail to face charges. We could house this inmate for almost a year in the jail while they await their day in court. They are placed in a special housing unit of course, and locked in their cell for 23 hrs. a day for their safety as well as the safety of others. They are medicated and receive what is due them by law – but with some limitations. If they are found guilty of murder for example, they would then be sentenced to a prison for the criminally insane depending on their psych evaluation. If they can handle special housing within the prison system, then they go on to a maximum security prison. Many of these patients are dangerously psychotic and a danger to themselves and others, and end up in a prison for the criminally insane.
Mom3.0
PamSpaz I want to thank you again for sharing your thoughts with me i have learned so much and I do agree with you on so many points and where we dont agree we still are willing to hear one another out
I appreciate and took to heart all of your points and i will be thinking on them frequently as I do think your points are very sound worthy of further pondering as i certainly do not have the answers and my ideas are always changing- thanks for helping to shape them in new directions
———————————-
Ditto, and IMO it is our varying opinions and sharing the thoughts that will possibly lead us to a solution.
———————————
I do need to ask about which criminals you think should be evaluated? At first I thought you meant all, then I thought just capital cases, then murderers, now I am back to all. In your recent post it says analyze or evaluate at intake. My shifting back and forth on this has also shifted my opinions lol. So I do not want to say to much more wrt this until I understand.
————————————–
Last night I thought of what might be a better analagy for my comment re burdening the system with analyzing the criminals. That would be the education system, and many parents expect the teachers to teach and parent the children those things that should be taught at home. School is for teachers to educate not to parent.
Also, I had watched the behind bars special that Nancy Grace had on. What caught my attention for our topic, is that the inmates stated that criminals that have drug addictions will seek meds from the psych dr. since they do not have access to street drugs. Another poster, I think it was Sue stated that the criminals are going to do whatever they need to if it benefits their case, sentence etc. These two things make be feel like any studies and analysis done at the criminal level would be skewed. If and only if you are suggesting that all criminals have a complete workup, than someone that commits a crime while strung out on drugs and/or alcohol would also be skewed.
—————————————————————
You mentioned that I stated that JA only had the one instance of blackout or memory loss. I mentioned that because that was one of the symptoms for the DID, and to me the one instance was a matter of convenience for the reasons I mentioned previously. One instance does not show a pattern of behavior that I would see as her having that symptom. Yes many here feel like she fits into many disorders. She probably has a special one all her own. Speaking of the DID, you had mentioned that an analysis is needed to rule it out. Forgive my confusion but is the analysis to diagnose and rule out things or???
I know you think that DeMarte did not do a complete workup on JA but do you think her dx was incorrect?
—————————————————————-
You said-
People would tend to be lenient on someone that has a mental health problem even if it had nothing at at all to do with the crime.
How can it be said that ta persons mental health most definitely had nothing to do with the crime – certainly notr without evaluatiobns- and what constitutes leniency?
Not offering the DP? offering mental health treatment while incarcerated to cont after release? IDK
————————————————————-
Sorry that I did not express myself better. I may ramble here just to try to clarify. Did she commit this crime because of her mental illness? If she did than it seems that someone else with BPD or whatever mh issue she has would do the same? If this is because of her mh issue, why now? why travis? why not a previous boyfriend that did her wrong? It just seems to me that there was some other reason not just her mh issue that made her kill travis.
——————————————————————-
Ditto to all of this too. I so appreciate and respect your thoughts, opinions etc. and have learned much from you as well. I realize that my opinions and ideas may not be right, I do not have the answers either, but yes we must try to do something. If it is something that does not work than we should tweek or try something else. I am completely in support of trying something until we find what does work.
This feels like a short one lol.
ODDS AND ENDS.
After viewing the video of grahics illustrating what the camera was capturing when Travis was in shower
posted by jDen), I was curious about the position he took three times- hands over head. Out of curisosity I googled Mormon ceremonies and found a link that not only expalins rituals, but also includes a link to a secretly filmed ceremony, shot in April 2013.
I am not going down the rabbit hole of linking this crime to a Mormon ritual. But because Arias made such a point of creating a backdrop of the Mormon religion, I wanted to know more.
for those who care, here is link:
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/temples.htm
Blink thanks for catching that –
and HA HA to the wordy mouth- so true
I know I know- but I cant seem to narrow it down… believe it or not I do leave stuff out
Warning another wordy post + is coming-
I apologize for the length in advance.
Sue says:
June 6, 2013 at 11:04 am
Hello Sue first Id like to say I sincerely appreciate you sharing your perspectives both as a correctional officer and a “regular” person
Both are invaluable
Id also like to convey my respect to you on your choice of careers
I think inorder to be a corections officer- you must be very courageous
I wouldnt have what it takes so thank you
You wrote:
Mom 3.0 – I see your passion and I get your point in regards to a ‘coming together’ of the minds of MH professionals and the criminal justice system.
I appreciate you taking the time and energy and thanks for the feedback Im glad it made sense
You wrote:
Truth be told however, this would be the dream of every person involved in either one of these fields if there was cooperation from each and every criminal about to go to trial for a heinous act against another human being.
===
Agreed – but it seems that this dream is not always held by all,
as in this trial –
The defense tried to win by attacking Travis and it seems that the prosecution may have been concerned more with getting a death penalty then presenting the truth in a complete pic- choosing only to show the images/facts that spurred the jury to vote death… some would say this is because the Alexander family wanted the DP- others would say it was because of JMs hubris – perhaps the truth is both?
what was presented at trial fell short
it seems to be less about the truth or getting the complete picture and was instead just enough of a BPD diagnosis to spur the jury to side with the prosecution.-
and the defense it seems didnt do its duty or wasnt smart enough to utilize the BPD diagnosis to further their case of abuse and dissociation etc
I wonder if the BPD diagnosis was explored further it could have explained exactly what happened
It has been said and i agree that this trial was never about who did it or who deserved punishment for the killing it was about whether JA would get death or life-
Well had the complete picture of her mental health been fully presented i think it would have went along way into aiding the jury to make a choice of life vs death instead of causing a mistrial in the penalty phase..
cont part 2
AJMO
RE Sue says:
June 6, 2013 at 11:04 am
You
So many of these individuals do not see that there is anything wrong with them, and therefore they don’t need to be diagnosed or fixed. They don’t want help and they don’t cooperate well. Do they want to be diagnosed?
==
Great points Sue – if not for the twins being caught on tape I dont think Sabina would have been declared not guilty by reason of diminished capacity- as She refused to cooperate- yet having watched the tape and knowing she went on to brutally kill someone and to hit herself in the head with a hammer and jump from abridge we can all agree cant we that whatever was happening in her deranged mind directly led to the murder and the rest
You wrote
They don’t want help and they don’t cooperate well. Do they want to be diagnosed?
==
I think JA may have wanted help or to at least understand- her parents sure did -the jury did- we did-
And she was cooperative she was evaluated by Samuels ALV, Demarte, and others as well– the tests that were administered showed no signs of lying-
And it is a fact that she met or exceeded the threshold for several disorders including BPD-
I am not saying she most definitely isnt a coldblooded killer- IDK if she is but it would seem that with the prosecutions on diagnosis there is a possibility that JA may not be a heinous cold blooded murderer but instead a woman who has BPD & may have been in a dissociative state and truly doesnot recall ever wanting to harm him and has no memory of stabbing him slitting his throat or cleaning up…
At the very least the jury should have been aware of the correlation between BPD and dissociation as well as the risk factors for developing BPD and DID
Cont Part3
AJMO
Re Sue
part 3
You wrote:
(they submit to mental health workup dianosis) Only if it would help them get a lesser sentence.
===
Perhaps but many of the tests rate truthfulness so i think a seasoned objective team of mental health professionals could rule out this factor- and if they are not cooperative, then that info should be presented at trial as well-
I would think Soon it would become apparent that it would be in the best interests of a defendant to submit and to be forthright
You wrote:
The understanding of individuals is like trying to understand the complexities of the universe. To be so burdened with trying to understand each and every criminal behavior or MH behavior that comes through the system on a daily basis would certainly grind the wheels of justice to a stand still.
==
Yes I agree and I would assume with your background you have a greater understanding of this
But with time it may prove to aid in the swiftness and the righteousness of justice I would think
and yes it would burden the system it is a daunting task, one that may prove to be just too much to accomplish- but we havent even tried
and as I said we already pay for experts who bolster a theory for a side- we already subject these defendants to some sort of evaluation just not one that is objective and thorough
Wouldnt it be safer and better cost effective to begin this process with the intent of presenting the complete picture? think what might have been avoided in the twins case had a thorough evaluation taken place before Sabina was released…
& wouldnt this also apply to capital cases where the complete pic seems to be lacking where the teams opt instead to offer
a cherry picked diagnosis
You wrote:
And many times it would only aid in excusing bad behavior.
–
I am not advocating using mental health as an excuse for bad behavior… as a way to understand and prevent it yes-
Nor am i advocating using a diagnosis to avoid accountability/punishment
Rather, I am advocating for determining a correct diagnosis, for presenting the jury with the complete truth so they may better decide matters = in such a way that would aid both justice and prevention
AJMO
cont Part 4
Re Sue Part 4
You wrote;
Please forgive me if I am over-simplifying things. Your research is what great discussion is all about
Thank you and no you are not oversimplifying you are sharing a differing perspective which is needed and welcomed. Thank you for valuing my contributions as well .
You wrote:
In an ideal world, this would be the way to go, but then we would have to expect every criminal to think on the same level as rational thinkers. Behavior is often not rationalized and includes many areas of impulse and rage just to name a few.
===
Yes I agree it is perhaps too idealistic and just wishful thinking..
But I disagree with theassertion we would have to expect every criminal to think or behave rationally-
Mental health professions work with, diagnosis & treat persons who are not rational who exhibit no impulse control as well as rage amongst other characteristics- sure this could complicate the process but it would not render it impossible
You wrote:
The true heinous acts of murder where the perpetrator is mentally deranged, usually gets the right diagnosis whether the perp wants to cooperate or not. There are some examples provided in the link above. Still some have to be locked away for life.
====
Interesting article Sue- if its all right i share my comments on it at another time?
But
Yes
I agree some do have to be locked up for life and still others deserve to be locked up in prisons rather than hospitals but all can benefit from a correct diagnosis and most can benefit from treatment- and researchers and society can benefit from any and all ongoing work
AJMO
cont part 5
re sue Part 5
Hope youre still with me Sue, thanks again for this discussion
You wrote:
This is my viewpoint on this subject from my bird’s eye view of the criminal justice system. We do the best we can given the resources available to understand the criminal mind and the minds of those afflicted with MH problems.
===
Thanks for sharing this viewpoint and again thanks for doing your best in your field
I agree more resources are needed and we may never fully understand the minds of the afflicted and how it may or may not relate to crime
You wrote
Because of the closing down of many psychiatric facilities in our nation, the jails and prisons have become the next MH facility for many. It is not ideal, but that’s the way it is now
====
It more than not ideal, IMO our whole mental health care system needs overhauling and we need to not demonize those afflicted with mental health conditions or else we risk creating more Adam Lanzas or more John Holmes & so on-
You wrote-
Each facility has a MH section with a psychiatrist available most days. I don’t feel we turn a blind eye away from anyone.
====
Understood- but offering those suffering from Mh issues a place to stay in prison instead of paying for facilities etc- and then shrugging our shoulders because the prisons have MH sections and a Dr. Is certainly not the way to go inorder to prevent and treat or to learn at least to me
You wrote:
And the part about the nicotine patches – Do you know what would become of that? Selling them to the highest bidder and/or applying too many at one time because it had a certain effect that they like or something just as stupid. Or someone getting assaulted because he/she wouldn’t give it up.
====
I certainly bow down to your expertize and thank you for pointing out the flaws in my thinking-
So given your experiences then perhaps it would be better to treat Schizophrenics with nicotine by pill form?
which they are given when they visit the Psyche facility daily- and as to prevent hoarding or selling or fighting- the psychiatrist must take on the duty of making sure the patient takes the meds and has it in his system long enough to not throw it up..
Yes there are flaws that need to be tweeked but if Nicotine aids in avoiding the symptoms and behaviors associated with schizophrenia- then shouldnt those afflicted with it in prisons receive this treatment especially if they are only there because our mental health care system is broke due to closing of facilities etc?
cont part 6
AJMo
Peace
Re Sue part 6
You wrote:A lot of expense for the taxpayer for a lot of trouble. There’s always a different side to the coin.
====
Yes there is always a different side of the coin and yes changing things even for the better costs money and time- and yes the taxpayers are over burdened- perhaps we should all vote that congress’ medical care and paid August vacations and self voted raises go to pay for theses things that would benefit we the people instead of they the few?
Im all for us seeing both sides of the coin rather than none at all
Sue, I appreciate your willingness to have this discussion I respect and value all of your thoughts and ideas-
More on the link later-
Re your
June 7, 2013 at 1:45 pm post
thanks for sharing that info-
AJMO Peace
CNN story yesterday on Richard Ramirez death in a California hospital, age 53
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/07/justice/california-night-stalker-ramirez-dead/index.html?sr=fb060713nightstalkerdies210p
O/T but as we discuss Nature vs. Nurture in the Arias case, here is some background on Ramirez background, including his presence at violent murder scenes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ramirez
“Natural causes” death listed as liver failure “at Marin General Hospital in Greenbrae, California, on the morning of June 7, 2013″
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ramirez
A while back I said that I thought the 5 people who said Jodi was guilty of First Degree Murder but not both 1st Degree and Felony murder were probably the same ones who did want to sentence her to the death penalty. Seems I might not have been that far off the mark. As I understand it FOUR of the jurors would not find for death and I strongly believe they were of the same five who found for First Degree Murder only.
I felt for that jury. Its one thing to say someone deserves death and another to send them to it. None of us really know if we could go through with that or not…we just like to think we could.
Jodi will spend the rest of her natural life behind bars in the general population. Just as another commenter here said that in prison she would fade away into nothing/no one…that is true. She will not run a non-profit business, she will not teach English or any other subject, and she will not be in control of her life or anyone else’s. She will be counted several times each day, she will wake up, eat, sleep, and go to the bathroom only when told or permitted and the life she will lead inside that prison will age her quickly and harshly. And although many think she enjoys thinking about what she did to Travis (maybe she did), I know that what she did will torment her every day of her life as she realizes that she lost her freedom because she took his life in such a brutal way. Freedom is the one thing that when taken seems to also take hope with it.
She has received her punishment from society. I pray for Travis’s family and for hers. These years will most certainly seem unbearable for them.
We will never know why Jodi did what she did. She will never reveal the true reason(s). Mental health issues or not will make little difference. We will never extinguish evil, or figure it out enough to prevent it. IMHO
Until the next crime obsession…NaNa
The defense has succeeded in moving the focus of this trial to Arias mental state, in an attempt to alleviate her of responsibility for a murder that was agreed to as pre mediated and with aggravation.
Clearly, the concept that a person’s background impacts their future is a valid one.
At the same, our system of dealing with criminals is actually constantly being updated- every verdict does in fact set precedents and affect the way that prosecution or defense lawyers can proceed, citing previous rulings…
But is the Arias case one that should be considered such a watershed? The criminal, Arias, has managed to avoid a large part of the responsibility with lies, uncorroboratted claims of pedophilia, claims that the abuse she suffered because of agressively written emails caused her to fear for her life, and most profoundly claimed amnesia of the key event. So to me, we still don’t have all the facts of this particular crime.
As pointed out, the validity of any in depth psychological diagnosis is based on the willingness of the perpetrator to engage in the process, with the goal being the attainment of mental health.
In THIS case, we have a woman who has , for at least the 5 years now of incarceration, cannot be regarded as being fully cooperative with the justice system. Everything she has said or done has been aligned with alleviating her of responsibility. So it is hard fro me to see Arias as a candidate for the idea that with clear diagnosis, this is a person who could be rehabilitated. This specific woman is not interested in changing anything about herself, her mantra is that everyone else is at fault and THEY are the ones that should have changed the way they dealt, or deal with HER. So seriously, how far can someone go with a person like that?
She is not a good example of where an accurate phsyhological diagnosis could affect the final verdict in her punishment, because she continues to refuse responsibility for her part in the crime. It would be different if she was saying ” help me help me, there is something really wrong with me inside, I dont know why I killed Travis the way I did ” She thinks she is fine. And you cant get an accurate diagnosis or successful outcome in treatment if you are dealing with that mindset?
typo- didnt mean to end my last sentence ( posted June 8, 2:06) with a question mark!
@NaNa
Next crime obsession made me laugh
I am already glued to Seacat
PamSpaz says:
June 7, 2013 at 5:50 pm
I hope you are right Pamspaz when you say:
it is our varying opinions and sharing the thoughts that will possibly lead us to a solution.
You asked: I do need to ask about which criminals you think should be evaluated?
-Sorry I was speaking to capital cases as well as individuals who are suspected of actions that would harm themselves or others such as Sabina –but yes taking it further to include all cases eventually if we were to establish Mental Health evaluations as part of the vogage to justice
————————————–
a better analagy for my comment re burdening the system with analyzing the criminals. That would be the education system, and many parents expect the teachers to teach and parent the children those things that should be taught at home. School is for teachers to educate not to parent.
-Good analogy- Pamspaz- your point is well taken.
many teachers are surrogate parents- and school is for much more than book education- it is also practical life skills socialization conflict skills art music drama sports and so on
so teachers and coaches do “parent” to a certain degree and should- as we are solving conflicts health issues housing issues, hunger issues etc I look at as we are village…
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(behind bars Nancy Grace) stated that criminals that have drug addictions will seek meds from the psych dr. since they do not have access to street drugs. Another poster, I think it was Sue stated that the criminals are going to do whatever they need to if it benefits their case, sentence etc. These two things make be feel like any studies and analysis done at the criminal level would be skewed. If and only if you are suggesting that all criminals have a complete workup, than someone that commits a crime while strung out on drugs and/or alcohol would also be skewed.
- Yes I addressed some of these issues in my comments to Sue
- IRT the “skewing” youre right there is a risk and it would be the duty of the objective mental health professionals to factor in any potential for skewing and overcome it…- to me the benefits of getting it right presenting the complete pic outweighs the risk of encountering the “skewing”
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You mentioned that I stated that JA only had the one instance of blackout or memory loss. I mentioned that because that was one of the symptoms for the DID, and to me the one instance was a matter of convenience for the reasons I mentioned previously. One instance does not show a pattern of behavior that I would see as her having that symptom
-Thanks for clarifying- yes its true that JA specifically mentioned only one event of Blacking out (other than teen alchohol related)- this was at the time of the murder and its true that this could be due to her conveniently using the fog blackout as an excuse of her crime-
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One instance does not show a pattern of behavior that I would see as her having that symptom.
- One instance was expounded upon- there may have been more
as She does exceed the threshold for BPD (and other disorders)
Dissociation is a symptom of BPD. Her dissociation may not reach the point to move over into DID but then again it may we cant know
Not all dissociative states may be as severe as the one on the day of the murder- in fact she may not even be aware that she exhibited this trait in the past-
She was either lying or did not remember the mom kick
The return gas can
The ring
The readjustment of Ryan
The trip
Breakfast that day
The presence & level of dissociation severity encountered in BPD can and does fluctuate such as losing time while watching tv or driving etc to whole events people days etc being not imprinted and brief flashes of recall can occur
Such as with The knife screaming and The dishwasher
Also people in a dissociative state CAN perform complex tasks they just dont encode the memory of having done it they are on autopilot for lack of a better descriptor
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Speaking of the DID, you had mentioned that an analysis is needed to rule it out. Forgive my confusion but is the analysis to diagnose and rule out things or???
-DID is difficult to diagnosis it requires the Dr to do extensive evaluations to include thorough mental health phys. Health history etc-
I was speaking to the DES which I posted
this test would have been helpful in ruling out DID if she answered the questions based on the info we know then her score should have either ruled it out or made it pertinent for further testing and evaluations which would then rule it out or ultimately determine that diagnosis
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I know you think that DeMarte did not do a complete workup on JA but do you think her dx was incorrect?
I dont think any of the Dr did a thorough work up yes the tests show she exceeded the threshold for BPD
so the disorder which Demarte focused was correct but incomplete – the defense did not diligently follow up
and Demarte was not forthcoming in her testimony for if she was it would have become apparent that PTSD and Dissociation can go hand in hand with BPD as well as childhood maltreatment abuse or neglect to include traumas in young adulthood and adult life which may in fact exasperate the symptoms of BPD to include severe dissociational black outs
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Did she commit this crime because of her mental illness? If she did than it seems that someone else with BPD or whatever mh issue she has would do the same?
I cant answer that 1st ? – but yes I believe it could be factor into the why and yes every person whther they suffer from BPD or no disorder at all can murder someone given the wrong set of circumstances or triggers-
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If this is because of her mh issue, why now?
I dont know – & she may not know the Drs may not either that is why further research may help
Perhaps w/ hypnosis we might have known- its interesting that in LE interviews when asked why? she said PP
IDK no reason its stupid- many people with BPD do not know or understand their triggers they cant explain..
why travis? IDK perhaps for her as a borderline she believed she was in danger mortal danger which triggered a severe dissociative state IDK
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why not a previous boyfriend that did her wrong? It just seems to me that there was some other reason not just her mh issue that made her kill travis.
I cant say Idk but I have little doubt that other factors would play a part
JFTR I have not ruled out the fery real possibility she killed him in cold blood knowingly and with premeditation
all I am saying is that given what was presented at trial by both sides and what we know outside of trial to include her diagnosis by both teams it seems that it is possible that she may have killed him unknowingly in a severe dissociative state- because of the lack of an in depth evaluation, presentation, and defense- we may never know the answer
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Ditto to your ditto and
YEP to this:
I am completely in support of trying something until we find what does work.
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This feels like a short one lol.
It was to me but Im wordy LOL so ya know? …
I look forward to reading more of your insights thank you for having this convo with me-
AJMO
Peace
Mom 3.0 – I am going to address this paragraph in your response to me in Part 5 because I feel this is a summary in what you are trying to convey. You write: – “Understood- but offering those suffering from Mh issues a place to stay in prison instead of paying for facilities etc- and then shrugging our shoulders because the prisons have MH sections and a Dr. Is certainly not the way to go in order to prevent and treat or to learn at least to me”
When they started closing down the psychiatric facilities in the 90′s, we in Corrections were wondering the same thing. We were used to dealing with the criminally minded, but not so much the mentally ill. When those in the psychiatric institutions committed an offense, they came to jail to await trial. Then we started getting many people in jail who were released from the institutions and were being managed in out-patient care units to receive their meds. If they didn’t take their meds, very often they would act out or try to self medicate with street drugs or alcohol and this would usually lead to getting arrested for a crime. Medications had gotten so good, that many with even severe MH issues could be managed outside of the psychiatric care facilities. This is how things remain today. In jail, where inmates await trial, there are programs they can attend and MH counselors who are there if the inmate needs to talk to someone and it’s all free. And of course a psychiatrist is on hand several days a week.
A lawyer is acquired when an inmate comes to jail, and a lawyer has access to whatever he/she needs in order to set up a defense strategy. If there is a MH history for the inmate, then the lawyer can gain access to that information. As with the JA trial, the defense can have evaluations done on their client by professionals in the field that will aid in helping their client be more understood. This can then be translated to the jurors in the hopes that it will help their client receive a lighter sentence. We all know this, I know. My point is that JA was evaluated many times over, and was NOT found to be mentally ill – even by her own defense professionals. She has a personality disorder, thinks she is smarter that the DA, wants to run her own defense even though she doesn’t have a law degree, lied even on an evaluation that was meant to help her, has no paper trail in jail or outside jail that points to any past or present mental problems that would account for her extreme crime. She may or may not have suicide ideations. But she does fit the profile of many others who have murdered in a blind rage of overkill. They were all evaluated and knew right from wrong, otherwise they are sent out to be evaluated until it was understood that they understood right from wrong and could assist in their own defense. Sometimes it takes years for this to happen if it happens.
We will never know the truth as to why or what she did. She will never give us the satisfaction. So what truth can we glean? We can look at the evidence. We can go on past patterns of others who have killed in cold blood. We can surmise from what we know of her character and piece her actions leading up to the murder together to come up with a scenario. We have to depend on the experience of our defense attorneys, our prosecutions, our judges and the system. But we will never learn anything from JA. She will keep the truth to herself. Her attorneys spent years on her case, as did the prosecution. Her attorneys bent the truth to defend their client. JM bent their false truth back to reality.
I am trying to put myself in your frame of mind and give JA the benefit of having a hidden psychiatric issue that deserves to be told. If she does have such an issue, what should become of her in the eyes of the law? We don’t have the psychiatric care facilities of yesteryear anymore. She doesn’t really fit the mold of the worst or the worst psychiatric patient anyway. They are severely disturbed people who never would have functioned as well as JA did in the outside world all her life. JA never took anti-psychotic medication to keep her grounded in reality. JA had relationships, jobs, cars, credit cards, phones, etc. She had underlying insecurities that may have motivated her choices in life, but she was not psychotic or schizophrenic. I believe the criminal justice system has this right. She is a danger to society because she is a threat to others and doesn’t think she has to be fixed. She is very comfortable in her own skin. If she is so dissociative, I can’t imagine how she knew enough to clean up and delete pictures on the camera. She followed through with so many other actions and had to have a concept of time too.
I know I haven’t covered a tenth of what is concerning you. Most of what you post above is beyond my expertise. I can only report on my view through the worm hole of jail and prison. I have been a court officer, so I do have some knowledge of how the courts work. Most cases never go to trial. Most are plea bargained. Those inmates that are unfit for trial because they are so disturbed, they usually find their way to a prison for the criminally insane. Those inmates never get out and can’t be rehabilitated.
Perhaps I don’t possess the language to better explain why I believe the verdict of JA was right or why I don’t believe she is mentally ill, but I gave it my educated opinion. All that goes into a trial like she had, everyone should be so lucky. There was nothing that was overlooked. She had so many who came to her aid to get her the best defense. Too bad they were up against JM. That’s about the only thing they weren’t prepared for.
I have my opinion on the twins case, but I’m being quite the wordy girl now too. I’ll reserve that for another post. TY
Amen to whodunit! I hadn’t read your post before I posted and you said what I tried to say so well.
I am pretty much done with Jodi
LWOP or death makes little difference to me
When the jury convicted her 1murder pre med that did it for me
I do have feelings for all the Alexander family And hope for healing of some kind
Jodi sat scribbling threw days of the tears and suffering
And continued to have Travis thrashed
@ Word Girl says:
June 8, 2013 at 10:54 am
I’m sure this is a blessing to the victims’ families. His is the face of Satan, as I’d imagine it would be.
Lilacs are here. One of the most amazing fragances ever. I will think of Travis, this time, every year, when the Lilacs bloom.
Very bitter sweet but he deserved to be remembered. xo
that should read fragRances.
Deserved should be deserves. Sorry friendies. I type faster than I think and I don’t think that says much about my thought processing.
Peace and love be with you all xo
@Malty. I’m watching Seacat too…
Rose says:
June 9, 2013 at 8:11 am
@Malty. I’m watching Seacat too…
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Rose and Malty, I am watching what I can of the Seacat trial. He reminds me of JA with far loss polish and lower IQ. Both of them are cold, calculating and dangerous when they don’t get their way.
Rose says:
June 9, 2013 at 8:11 am
@Malty. I’m watching Seacat too…
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Me too..doesn’t want to show his face during trial. Maybe he and Jodi could be prison pen-pals.