Jodi Arias Trial Verdict IS IN: GUILTY Of MURDER In The Slaying Of Travis Alexander
Image courtesy Arias
Phoenix, AZ- In the 4 month long trial of Jodi Ann Arias for the murder of her brief boyfriend Travis Victor Alexander, the jury deliberating since last Friday has arrived at a verdict in her case. Arias was found guilty of the pre-meditated murder of Travis Alexander on June 4th, 2008.
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Sue says:
June 8, 2013 at 11:05 pm
Amen to whodunit! I hadn’t read your post before I posted and you said what I tried to say so well
—-
Sue- well I guess we are pn the same page because I actually got the idea for what I wrote based on the link you had put forth:
http://kristinarandle.com/blog/the-jodi-arias-trial-jodi-insanity-and-the-death-penalty/#more-8137
although that particular article is about the concept of schizophrenia, what jumped out to me was the logic that sane people can kill and go on about their lives as if nothing happened… like Arias had tried to do.
And Arias has indicated a morality in this whole thing- the only thing is that she is claiming it was Travis immorality that drove her to fear for her life. She also testified, in many ways, that she knew she did something wrong-when she came out of her amnesia and saw blood on her hands, she said she knew she had killed Travis….. hmmmm. The death penalty is based on the perps awareness of right and wrong, Arias had a sense of right and wrong.
The defense justifies Arias ability to clean up the scene, drive a long distance etc, are because a person suffering from global can go on automatic pilot and do things they have routinely done before.
Arias never killed anyone before, and had never driven to Ryan Burns house from Mesa before, so how could she be on automatic pilot , following a ” routine” of cleaning up blood, mapping out a route etc? If she was in a fog, why did she take a route that led her to Ryan Burns?
But this is beside the point.
My real point is that Arias herself, though stimulating much discussion about what on earth is wrong with her, has never presented a case that is based on mental illness to the degree that she is alleviated of qualification for DP , under law.- though obviously larger philosophical issues may prevent an individual juror from being able to make that final call.
Personally, I think this case would be closed if defense pleas to LWOP, but I don’t see that happening.
Imo someone who kills & goes on about their lives as if nothing happened (fog or not) is Not Sane.
Not on the Schizophenia Channel, but is on the Personality Disorder Channel.
imo the jury split bcz some saw, & took into account, mental illness.
And if Nurmi doesn’t play the mental illness card, he’s nuts.
@lyla
Doesn’t that burn you that SeaCat is hiding his face
I agree he seems close to a male version Jodi
Rose – Are you advocating for LWOP as opposed to the DP in your comment at 7:45 pm because of your belief of mental illness?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanie_McGuire
I post the link above about another gruesome murderer named Melanie McGuire who murdered her husband, cut him up and stuffed him in suitcases and dumped his parts in some body of water. She was defended by Joe Tacopina. She received life in prison.
What of other cold blooded killers like: Susan Wright, Scott Peterson, Juran Vandersloot, Chris Coleman to name a few. They all resumed normal lives after they committed cold blooded murder. They’re all on the spectrum of psychopathy. No remorse, able to carry on as if it was just another day in the park after they killed. I call it pure evil. They all covered it up and tried to get away with it.
@Sue and Whodunnit
Very interesting link Thanks
Scott Peterson sits on death row and gets many marriage offers LOL
That was the case that really got me Lasci and Conner
He was another one that murdered and acted like it was just having a hamburger at McDonalds
Moving on
Rose says:
June 9, 2013 at 7:54 pm
Imo someone who kills & goes on about their lives as if nothing happened (fog or not) is Not Sane.
Not on the Schizophenia Channel, but is on the Personality Disorder Channel.
imo the jury split bcz some saw, & took into account, mental illness.
And if Nurmi doesn’t play the mental illness card, he’s nuts.
—————–
—-The defense has been TRYING to play the mental illness card, but they have failed so far to show that mental illness canceled out her ability to pre meditate and execute a murder with aggravation. That was settled in phase one and phase two, and it will stand if the second jury is the next step.
Agreed, lots of nuttiness going on, but the defense kind of skirted things in the final phase, and THAT is when the defense SHOULD have presented the mitigating circumstances- i.e. mental illness that would make a jury defer from sentencing her to DP. But when they had the chance, they out forth NO witnesses.
Defense had chosen to present the mental health experts as part of their case in chief, to substantiate their claim of self defense, and alleviate Arias of responsibility for the heinous nature of the murder. But that did not work.
They did not plead insanity in the first place, because Arias passed all competency tests, from what I understand- competency evaluations are part and parcel of pre trial procedure, aren’t they??
I do not know if either side is even allowed to bring in new evidence in the event a second jury is called in. A mess, to say the least, IMO
REwhodunnit says:
June 8, 2013 at 2:06 pm
You
The defense has succeeded in moving the focus of this trial to Arias mental state, in an attempt to alleviate her of responsibility for a murder that was agreed to as pre mediated and with aggravation.
Clearly, the concept that a person’s background impacts their future is a valid one.
_The defense failed her during the trial had they explored the full diagnosis of BPD and the very real symptoms of BPD than the jury may have voted differently across the board.
_As shared earlier her behaviors emotions fog/dissociation her history abuse neglect and “lies” her whole defense could have been shown to be part of the prosecutions diagnosis of BPD a diagnosis which was shown through testing
__________
You wrote;
As pointed out, the validity of any in depth psychological diagnosis is based on the willingness of the perpetrator to engage in the process, with the goal being the attainment of mental health.
-True and Arias was engaged and cooperative-she submitted to evaluations and testing and these tests determined Jodi arias met or exceeded the threshold for BPD and other disorders.
___________
You:
In THIS case, we have a woman who has , for at least the 5 years now of incarceration, cannot be regarded as being fully cooperative with the justice system. Everything she has said or done has been aligned with alleviating her of responsibility.
_This may be t5rue in one regard BUT her testing which was conducted by Demarte sand others showed no signs of her trying to dupe or cheat the test- so it seems very likely that the findings are correct Jodi Arias suffers from BPD as well as other disorders
_Dissioacion/blacking out losing time etccan be a part of BPD as is detachment from reality, emotional instability flat effect- paranoia, hallucianations, extreme irrational fear, blaming, avoidance,PTSD
Childhood abuse and more…
___________
You wrote:
So it is hard fro me to see Arias as a candidate for the idea that with clear diagnosis, this is a person who could be rehabilitated.
_Many people with BPD can be treated sucessfully although it is a complex and daunting task-
_________
You
As for This specific woman is not interested in changing anything about herself,
__Actually Arias was not comfortable with herself this is part of the disorder they are chameleon like becuase they are not comfortable in their skin or mind
_____________
You wrote:
her mantra is that everyone else is at fault and THEY are the ones that should have changed the way they dealt, or deal with HER. So seriously, how far can someone go with a person like that?
___This is all part of the disorder of BPD therefore with proper and diligent treatment meda/ therapy etc it is very possible that Arias would no longer harbor these thoughts behaviors and feelings
___________
You wrote:
She is not a good example of where an accurate phsyhological diagnosis could affect the final verdict in her punishment, because she continues to refuse responsibility for her part in the crime.
___What? She admitted to killing him- she says she doesnt remember the knife attack and she said the shooting was because of her belief she was defending herself from immediate bodily harm hearkening back to an earlier stressor
_Since she was diagnosed with BPD this again could all be the facts as she knows and understands them
See here:
* Jones B, Heard H, Startup M, Swales … Department of Psychology, Bath Mental Health NHS Trust.
1999 Psychol Med – Autobiographical memory and dissociation in borderline personality disorder.
23 patients with BPD and 23 matched controls
“Patients with BPD have difficulties in recalling specific autobiographical memories. These difficulties are related to their tendency to dissociate and may help them to avoid episodic information that would evoke acutely negative affect”
and
* Startup M, Heard H, Swales M, Jones B,… – School of Psychology, University of Wales, Bangor, UK.
2001 Br J Clin Psychol – Autobiographical memory and parasuicide in borderline personality disorder.
“Over-general,autobiographical recall may help to protect borderline individuals from parasuicidal acts by helping them to avoid distressing memories.”
and
“History of losing time. For example, patients with borderline personality disorder might start watching a movie and suddenly reorient later in the middle of another movie with no clear memory of the elapsed time” (Richard J. Laban, Ph.D ,”Working with the Borderline Personality Disordered Client”, CAAP Connection 1998)
“During a dissociative,episode, the brain is thought to switch into a biochemically-induced “high defense mode”, during which the storage of new memories is effectively blocked. Yet not all memory is erased, which is quite confusing to those interacting with the individual during these times. Researchers propose that “these early encoding deficits [...] have a deleterious effect on the short-term memory system; they manifest as deficits in the ability to take in new information but not in the ability to conceptualize and manipulate previously encoded information” (Helen, “Memory, Trauma & BPD”, Helen’s World of BPD Resources)
* Snyder S.
1986 Am J Psychiatry – Pseudologia fantastica in the borderline patient.
“An infrequently described clinical feature sometimes associated with borderline personality disorder is pseudologia fantastica, or pathological lying”
When are they lying without knowing ?
Each time, we ask them to give us an information wrongly stored in their memory.
Trauma, dissociation, lying and memory are linked
During their transient epidose of dissociation, their memory storage is impaired
Dissociation is a self-defensive mode to escape from unacceptable situation. In that way it is logical to not memorize exactly such episode.
In such circonstance asking a patient about this fact will lead him to say HIS truth, but it is a lie. (It is then very dangerous and can lead to false accusations)
During periods of extreme stress (e.g., perceived or actual abandonment), these individuals may experience transient paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms (e.g., depersonalization).
BPD central
Dissociation is the state in which, on some level or another, one becomes somewhat removed from “reality,” whether this be daydreaming, performing actions without being fully connected to their performance (“running on automatic”), or other, more disconnected actions. It is the opposite of “association” and involves the lack of association, usually of one’s identity, with the rest of the world.
It is estimated that one-third (33%) of patients with dissociative identity disorder also have borderline personality disorder” (apa)
* Ross – Institute for Psychological Trauma, Richardson USA.
2007 J Trauma Dissociation
“On the Dissociative Disorders Interview Schedule, 59% of the borderline patients met criteria for a dissociative disorder compared with 22% of the non-borderline patients”
* van der Kolk BA, Hostetler A, Herron N, Fisler RE – Trauma Clinic, HRI Hospital, Brookline, Massachusetts
1994 Psychiatr Clin North Am – Trauma and the development of borderline personality disorder.
Dissociation have a high correlation both with the degree of borderline psychopathology and with the severity of childhood trauma
Dissociation is a way of coping with inescapably traumatic situations by allowing the person to detach from the reality of the situation. Often there is a loss of the memory and the relief of pain for the situation, the person can feel numb or spaced out. For some people this becomes a conditioned response to stress even if the situation is not inescapably stressful
“Cutting often occurs during periods of dissociation.
I have a personal belief that dissociation, when it occurs with BPD is actually a panic symptom” (mhsanctuary.com)
“Dissociation occurs in certain personality disorders (eg depersonalization during self-mutilation episodes in borderline personality disorders) as weel as in eating disorders (eg derealization during binging episodes) etc.” (Alain brunet Ph D 2001)
” Sometimes the mind disconnects from the body. This is called dissociation. Those are times when the body being hurt does not look or feel to be your own. It is hard to stop. With treatment, dissociation can be relieved, especially with DBT” (Melissa Ford Thornton: Author of the book: Eclipses: Behind the Borderline Personality Disorder)
“Often when something does hurt, or frighten them they do not know why. Much of the borderline experience carries with it differing levels of dissociation. This means that borderlines often experience things in the present as if they were things in the past. A sudden loud noise outside, for example, which likely has no consequence in the borderline’s life, in the present, will be perceived as a threat” (Ms aj mahari)
“In some of the more severe individuals with bpd there is a complete fragmentation. It becomes really confusing since so many statements and behaviors appear to be contradictory” (Kathi Stringer)
“BPD – Some individuals develop psychotic-like symptoms (e.g., hallucinations, body-image distortions, ideas of reference, and hypnagogic phenomena) during times of stress” (HealthyPlace)
________
You wrote;
It would be different if she was saying ” help me help me, there is something really wrong with me inside, I dont know why I killed Travis the way I did ” She thinks she is fine. And you cant get an accurate diagnosis or successful outcome in treatment if you are dealing with that mindset?
-Again this would be part of her disorder many who are mentally ill do not fully understand that they need help She did say during LE interview that she did not know the why- of it- but Flores kept offering her scenarios “outs” and it is possible that Florez inadvertently aided in Arias recall of previous unrecalled unstored memories same for ALV and Samuels and the media-
_for IF Arias as a Borderline was in a complete dissociative state brought on by extreme fear or panic or yes even rage- their leading questions and/Possible scenarios could have infact altered JAs memories by nudging her to encode the false memories they suggested as the “truth”…
And yes a seasoned objective thorough mental health professional could treat Arias successfully is it 100 5 guaranteed no
AJMO
Peace
Mom3.0 says:
June 10, 2013 at 1:45 am
—
mom 3.0- I re and re read your posts every time, I truly appreciate how much you share and teach!!
To spare the space (and time)- I want to respond to a couple of specifics, and then run a kind of general idea by you..
specifically:
you said:
…… BUT her testing which was conducted by Demarte sand others showed no signs of her trying to dupe or cheat the test- so it seems very likely that the findings are correct Jodi Arias suffers from BPD as well as other disorders
- I am sure that all the experts recognized that Arias had previously lied, and it is my recollection that they all acknowledged this in testimony. But defense witnesses took the position that regardless of previous lies, Arias was truthful in their encounters with her. The mental state of the fog was key to the defense because they were attempting to prove that not only did Arias kill Travis because of long tiome abuse, she also didn’t remember crucial details of the crime. They offered this defense NOT To show that Arias was mentally ill. They offered this to show that she had become so affected by abuse that she was afraid for her life, and that she was not trying to hide/lie about the crime, she just had PTSD.
DeMarte was presented as a rebuttal witness to defense claims of PTSD and global transient amnesia. DeMarte testified that in her opinion, Arias WAS lying about the fog, She used the legal term w ” malingering”. She explained in detail, and referred to testing. The fog was key to the defense because they were attempting to prove that not only did Arias kill Travis because she was reacting to long term abuse, but also that she didn’t fully remember doing it.The gist of the State’s response to testing was,1. how can you believe Arias was being honest when tested, But La Violette and Samuels
and 2. ( in Samuels case) How much credibility can be given to the test test when they were given at a time when Arias was denying involvement, i.e lying?
As I said, I am learning from you- but I still am not aware of any written test that is specifically designed for the sole purpose of diagnosing a person as a pathological liar.
The Minnesota Multi phasic tests DO have ” internal checks” for veracity, but as they seem to have a built in assumption that the person being tested cannot possibly “see through” them. For example, they will ask on one page, ” What kind of a job would you like to have if you worked for a newspaper, and then you are given the choice of journalist, weather, gardening etc. Or on one page they will ask ” who do you love the most in your family ?” and give you a choice of mother father sister brother. And then many pages later, there will be a question like ” do you like gardening?” Or “do you hate your mother” Veracity is tested by comparison of the answers, and the discrepancies. IMO, I beleive Arias has the ability to follow such details.
you say
And yes a seasoned objective thorough mental health professional could treat Arias successfully is it 100 % guaranteed, no.
With SO much respect for what you have been saying, I fear that ARIAS is just not a good example of this diagnosis and .. without wanting to sound horrible, what is the point? We are not talking about a person who has made any discernable impact on anyone’s life, let alone kept even herself functioning in society. This isn’t a Minister/doctor.laywer/nurse who snapped, a teacher who taught hundreds of students who succeeded in life, or even a camp counseler who lost her way! We are talking specifically about a woman who even at age 27.was unable to graduate from high school,stay out of debt, find a profession, or become a part of anything lager than the social life linked with her love interest. Where is the charity work, the long term church affiliation, the family, the community that would again benefit if Arias could be ” returned to normal” I am NOT saying ” kill her” because she has little to offer to society , I am simply saying that she should be viewed in terms of existing laws. And nothing has proven her to be mentally ill to the point of being alleviated of responsibility for pre med with aggravation. ( 1000 apolies for my broken record here!)
And btw, I am the one who earlier asked about DID- but I did so for my own needs to understand what is incomprehensible to me- not to apply it to Arias vis a vis whether or not she deserves full force of the law in THIS case.
you say:
-Again this would be part of her disorder many who are mentally ill do not fully understand that they need help She did say during LE interview that she did not know the why- of it- but Flores kept offering her scenarios “outs” and it is possible that Florez inadvertently aided in Arias recall of previous unrecalled unstored memories same for ALV and Samuels and the media
Mom 3.0- Arias said she “did not know the why of it”, before she formally came up with a plea of self defense.
But by the time she went to trial,her entire defense is based on her explanaition of WHY she did it:
She is VERY clear that the reason she did this is because Travis abused her.
When asked by a juror how she could remember minute details of things that happened years ago, but could not remember she stabbing Travis, she testified that she didnt know how the brain works. That was a lie, She had already been tested by her own experts and was very aware of what the defense strategy was, and her defense strategy how HER brain worked!
I maintain that Arias IS aware of having mental health issues , but is not motivated to change them, unless faced with a consequence she doesn’t want, and she is playing this out to the bitter end.
so , for the more generalized topic-
I feel i understand – and am so apprecitive of all the information about BPD and its manifestations as well as so many other diagnosis you have addressed- all that appear to justify Arias behavior.
But I am equally appreciative of the concept of ” Confirmation Bias”, where in a person can look for things with the purpose of confirming a theory instead of developing one, if that makes sense- (here is a link that discusses thathttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-solin/what-alyce-laviolette-can_b_3122823.html)
Circling back, ideally, we can hope for change in our justice system that would provide inmates the help they need to become re integrated into society as rational productive beings.
But doe Arias, and the specific circumstances she has presented thus far- including the testing, the various DX (in court, not on our site!!LOL) does SHE warrant an entire campaign to alter the way things stand now?
I don’t think so. I don’t think she should be martyred, in any way.
Sue says:
June 8, 2013 at 10:56 pm
Mom 3.0 – I am going to address this paragraph in your response to me in Part 5 because I feel this is a summary in what you are trying to convey.
I appreciate you trying to summarize what you felt I was trying to convey but no, that was simply part of my acknowledgment of your post and a furthering of the discussion
Thanks for sharing through your experiences the history of when and how the prison system became a substitute for mentalhealth facilities and treatment
You wrote;
A lawyer is acquired when an inmate comes to jail, and a lawyer has access to whatever he/she needs in order to set up a defense strategy.
-True to a degree, but when a defendant is poor they are given court appointed attorneys who are overworked overstressed and who basically have their hands tied-
They can not hire the best and most appropriate experts forensic teams
private eyes
etc
They do not have unlimited funds or time. That can often be the reason why they plea -it does not always indicate guilt but what the[awyer feels is in thee best interests of the client based on the “evidence” the prosecution has-
This evidence is not always the truth as in wrong mistaken eyewitness accounts
false confessions
and so on
Cont {art 2
ajmo
cont prt 2
reSue says:
June 8, 2013 at 10:56 pm
You wrote;
If there is a MH history for the inmate, then the lawyer can gain access to that information. As with the JA trial, the defense can have evaluations done on their client by professionals in the field that will aid in helping their client be more understood.
_This is true. But as in this case, the defense can fall woefully short as they are often forced to bring on less than stellar experts.. like Samuels and ALV who are very easily discredited on the stand because of their own mistakes-or hubris or biases-
So these experts often can not measure up to those that the prosecution has in their arsenal-
Samuels should have been aware of BPD and offered up this as a way for his client to be understood as BPD goes hand in hand with PTSD, dissociation, and all the rest of what the defense was trying to show thru their case-
if samuels hadnt been discredited thru his past, his bias and poor followup testing (the PTSD test oops )etc
then he could have been recalled to the stand to utilize Demarte BPD diagnosis to further his clients case-
Dr Samuels asks the defense,- what are the symptoms of BPD- how does this relate to JA specifically?.. and so on-
and if the defense did their job- then they could have turned Demarte into a defense witness:
Isnt trut Dr Demarte that BPD is often associated with severe childhood trauma to include sexual physical and emotional abuse neglect?
Isnt it true Dr Demarte that BPD is linked to severe dissociation and blackouts and does this correlation depend on the severity of the trauma?
Isnt it trut Dr Demarte that BPD can be exasperated by further traumas and that sufferers, when confronted with abuse or extreme fear, can fragment and totally blackout sometimes not recalling people, events, whole days, whole weeks – although they most assuredly performed complex tasks and interacted with others during this lost time they still may have no recall?
Isnt it true Dr Demarte that BPD sufferers can have brief moments of flashbcks/ recall that are the same as those who suffer from PTSD?
2u9ch could explain the knife scream, the dishwasher, the desert trip an so on
Isnt it true Dr Demarte that those who suffer from BPD often are perceived to be liars even though their lies are often a result of dissociation?
Isnt it true Dr Demarte that missing ring you mentioned could have been taken by JA in a dissociative state and she has no memory of understanding of the how or why?
Isnt it true Dr Demarte the trip to Arizonia could have occurred in a dissociative state one in which was brought on by DID
Dr Demarte what is DID and did you give Arias the DES -did this testing show a need to further evaluate her for the disorder? why didnt you follow up on this?
Dr Demarte Isnt it true that one-third (33%) of patients with dissociative identity disorder also have borderline personality disorder” ?
Dr Demarte Isnt it true that a study of Patients with clinical diagnoses of schizophrenia or BPD were interviewed using the Structured Clinical Interviews for DSM-IV. Axes 1 and 2 and auditory hallucinations, paranoia, and childhood trauma were assessed. A total of 111 patients participated; 59 met criteria for schizophrenia, 33 for BPD, and 19 for both. The groups were similar in their experiences of voices, including the perceived location of them, but they differed in frequency of paranoid delusions. Those with a diagnosis of BPD, including those with schizophrenia comorbidity, reported more childhood trauma, especially emotional abuse. BPD and schizophrenia frequently coexist, and this comorbidity has implications for diagnostic classification and treatment. Levels of reported childhood trauma are especially high in those with a BPD diagnosis, whether they have schizophrenia or not, and this requires assessment and appropriate management.
Dr Demarte Was schizophrenia and DID ruled out in JA case was BPD with schizoid
was this disorder ruled out?
Dr Demarte Wht is the definition of a schizoid ?
places def on screen
schiz·oid
1
Psychology. of or pertaining to a personality disorder marked by dissociation, passivity, withdrawal, inability to form warm social relationships, and indifference to praise or criticism.
2.
Informal. of or pertaining to schizophrenia or to multiple personality.(DID)
Dr Demarte can JA actions behaviors and emtions etc be attributed to her disorders?
Dr Demarte could her lie about the gas can return be attributed to a dissociation or blackout?
Dr Demate does JA know right from wrong? Does she understand that killing Travis was wrong ?
Dr Demarte because she can understand this as she sits here today can you say that she at the time of the murder understood and was in control of her actions and thoughts even if in a complete dissociative state?
and so forth…
AJMO
cont prt 3
re Sue
You wrote;
This can then be translated to the jurors in the hopes that it will help their client receive a lighter sentence. We all know this, I know
-All of the above and more should have been translated
to the jurors inorder for them to get a complete picture- so they could better decide all aspects of this case-
The truth should not be cherry picked by either side- the facts should be presented
You wrote:
. My point is that JA was evaluated many times over, and was NOT found to be mentally ill – even by her own defense professionals.
You and others speak of sane insane mentally ill not mentally ill
What do these terms mean to you
Borderline personality disorder as well as other disorders are evidence of a disordered mind, one that does not function normally one that is ill
It can be said and has been by our dear rose that a ‘sane person” does not
You wrote:
She has a personality disorder,
Yes, She has more than one
You:
(she) thinks she is smarter that the DA,
Okay- this again is part of her disorder
BTW what is JMs iq? J/K Sorry couldnt resist.
you
(she)wants to run her own defense even though she doesn’t have a law degree,
yes she did that doesnt seem too smart or sane does it?
You
(she) lied even on an evaluation that was meant to help her,
She named the stressor or traumatic event as stranger related- which invalidated the test- it was a lie- and it harmed her greatly infront of the jurors-
yet the other testing showed no signs of lying so- we cant throw them out and since she was diagnosed with BPD it seems she may in fact be suffering from PTSD as it is one of the characteristics of the disorder in fact she may have PTSD since early childhood or adolescence it may go back to whatever traumatic event /abuse or neglect that brought upon her BPD in the first place…we cant know because she was not given an extensive all encompassing evaluation nor testing etc…
ajmo
cont prt 4
I feel I need to clarify my stand on what should happen to JA in the penalty phase of her trial. I am for the DP in some cases where the crime or crimes are so premeditated and heinous as is this case. JA does fit into this category for me, however, if she got LWOP – meaning she can NEVER walk free again, I would feel justice was served. Because of the conditions of her future life in prison, I feel that she will feel the pain of her decisions for a long time to come and that would be worse for her than the DP.
My question for those who feel she is mentally ill – what would satisfy your justice gene for her? I am curious as to where you are going with this, and what would be an acceptable form of punishment and/or treatment for her. Just remember that we don’t live in an ideal world with regards to people who are truly mentally ill.
I posted the names of some notorious murderers above. Some are serving LWOP, with the possibility of parole when they are very old or no parole ever. Others received the DP. They all committed premeditated, heinous acts of violence against others that resulted in death and tried to cover up. Granted JA claimed “The Fog” rolled in, but I for one don’t believe it. She almost slipped a few times on the stand, and caught herself. If I can find her slip ups on YouTube, I will post it.
I will state my stand, that I believe she is a cold-blooded psychopath who has some other underlying problems such as pathological lying, predatory issues, stalking behaviors, cunning and manipulative behavior towards others to satisfy HER goals and needs, narcissism, intelligence used for all the wrong reasons, jealousy, grandiose ideas of herself, rage and impulse control issues, proof of past violence against animals and her mother. Past crime of growing marijuana at her parents house. This sums up so much of the inmate population in any prison or jail who are charged with heinous, violence and death towards another. There are varying degrees of this pathology, some are worse than others. But I don’t believe that this is mental illness in that we should give them a pass or a lesser punishment because they were unable to control their behavior. They know right from wrong in this state of mind, and they choose to act out.
I feel that this boils down to what we believe drove her to murder TA. She couldn’t handle not going to Mexico with him, and her rage and jealousy took over, and she had to stop him – even if it meant murdering him. I think she was blackmailing him too on that day and this threatened him to the point where he became enraged with her. But she was prepared for his anger. Prepared with a gun and a knife. She anticipated some reaction on that day. She was enraged because she learned of his trip to Mexico with another woman and she knew days ahead of June 4th. She stewed in it all the way to his house. She was out of control when she finally arrived, and he was going to pay. I don’t read anything else into it, other than every behavioral disorder she has going in her twisted mind, drove her to put his lights out once and for all. The theme is as old as time. That’s why we will never know what actually happened before and on the day of his murder. Because if we did know the truth, then she wouldn’t have a leg to stand on. Not even the defense team’s strategy of self defense and DV.
Re
Sue says:
June 8, 2013 at 10:56 pm
You wrote:
(she) has no paper trail in jail or outside jail that points to any past or present mental problems that would account for her extreme crime.
As I have been trying and obviously failing to point out her BPD disorder could be the mental problem that would “account” for her crime
you wrote:
She may or may not have suicide ideations. But she does fit the profile of many others who have murdered in a blind rage of overkill.
-Yes she does and that rage that overkill could have infact been because of BPD which goes to prove that all of this info should have been explored in trial and it goes to prove that we need to study and research more in order to prevent- because there are others that are still amongst us in society that need to manage their mental illness perhaps BPD regardless if you and others simply want to say just “personality disorder” or not- this BPD is serious and obviously may lead another young man to be murdered by another sufferer who he once loved and once loved him certainly if she goes off into a dissociative rage or fear based attack
You wrote;
They were all evaluated and knew right from wrong, otherwise they are sent out to be evaluated until it was understood that they understood right from wrong and could assist in their own defense.
JA understood right from wrong as do most who stand before the judge- this is one of the reasons it is so hard to go with an insanity defnse
But just as AYates & Diana Dial killed in order to protect themselves and those they loved from what the believed to be a real threat during a fear based paranoid state JA may have killed Travis because she wrongly believed that she was in immediate danger… and if so this could have brought on a severe dissociative state
Dif this is true does it excuse arias from killing travis- no she murdered another human being and she must be held accountable however if this is true it would go against premeditated and especially cruel and or may factor as a mitigating circumstance-
You wrote;
We will never know the truth as to why or what she did. She will never give us the satisfaction.
Again due to her disorder/s she may not know or understand the real truth and perhaps the truth can be found in what the prosecution/ defense supplied had it only been pursued further:
such as
She suffers from BPD which led to a severe dissociative state when confronted with extreme fear or panic – she believed she was in mortal danger and can not recall any of the specifics of the attack because “she wasnt there” she never planned nor wanted to harm travis she blacked out therefore none of the memories were imprinted although just like in PTSD she sometimes can get flashes of memories which do not make sense …
AJMo
cont part 5
Re
Sue says:
June 8, 2013 at 10:56 pm
You wrote:
We can look at the evidence.
yes we can
We can go on past patterns of others who have killed in cold blood.
yes we can but again since it is a fact that she suffers from BPD she may not have killed him in cold blood but in a severe dissociative state
You- We can surmise from what we know of her character
What do we know of her character Sue?
You wrote
and piece her actions leading up to the murder together to come up with a scenario.
-yes we can and one scenario was presented by the prosecution and another was mishandled by the defense- and using both I have supplied yet another which can incorporate both of them to reach something different than a cold blooded premeditated murder-
You wrote;
We have to depend on the experience of our defense attorneys, our prosecutions, our judges and the system.
Sadly we do have depend on this and as I have pointed out and as we have learned with other cases, these professionals are human and they dont always act professionally or do their best or present a complete picture and even sometimes they are presented with unclear faulty or wrong evidence from LE which leads them to get the wrong person or get a guilty person off….
Ajmo Part 6
Re sue:
you wrote:
But we will never learn anything from JA. She will keep the truth to herself. Her attorneys spent years on her case, as did the prosecution. Her attorneys bent the truth to defend their client. JM bent their false truth back to reality.
-her attorneys bent the truth..maybe but How, when BPD the prosecutions diagnosis (bolstered thru testing )CAN go to prove the defenses case?
Really JM bent the truth back to reality?
Well it can be said he didnt
it can be said he distorted it /hid it by “stipulating it” and he did not present the full picture
not the mental health picture or
the forensics /blood evidence picture
&
the picture/s DO NOT show what he claims and chain of custody evidence gathering questions remain
you wrote;
I am trying to put myself in your frame of mind and give JA the benefit of having a hidden psychiatric issue that deserves to be told.
i appreciate it- but I am not saying she has a hidden issue i am saying the issues which presented themselves thru testing were not fully brought to light and her testing was not fully carried out as with the DES warranting further evaluations etc
If she does have such an issue, what should become of her in the eyes of the law? We don’t have the psychiatric care facilities of yesteryear anymore. She doesn’t really fit the mold of the worst or the worst psychiatric patient anyway.
____If these issues were fully explored than who knows? So because she doesnt fit the mold for the worst we should present only part of the truth at trial and opt for death or lifeWOP?
AJMO Peace cont part 7
BBL
Malty says:
June 9, 2013 at 9:34 pm
@lyla
“Doesn’t that burn you that SeaCat is hiding his face
I agree he seems close to a male version Jodi”
—————————————————
@Malty
Lying and certainly no remorse. An ex-cop to boot. I hope the prosecution wins their case.
Mom 3.0 – I wish I had a dime for every convict in prison who has BPD or anti-social personality disorder, or any other personality disorder on record. The courts don’t recognize these disorders as leniency in sentencing. They are dangerous traits to have depending on many factors, and there are no passes given, even if there are mitigating circumstances. Many times they are not even brought out in trial. A killer is a killer, and many jurors would be confused or distracted in this being brought up in trial. It could even work against the defendant. Being in a dissociative state is difficult to prove and in JA case, the jurors had their doubts about her fog. It is a long shot of a defense, especially when you have good evidence. It is almost too convenient and has to be proven beyond a shadow of doubt and other serious MH condition(s) usually have to accompany in order to be believed.
In the case of JA, if you were the defense attorney, how would you have presented a convincing argument in regards to her dissociative state of mind during the act of murdering TA? How would you set up the scenario? Knowing what you know about BPD, and some of the negative characteristics of this disorder, how would you have presented this as a causative effect in the murder of TA and a possible find that it would or could reduce some of the responsibility in her actions? Do you think jurors would believe this disorder could lessen her accountability in the savage attack on TA OR contribute to it? And would you want to take the chance by making this your sole argument in defending her?
Keep in mind, a prosecutor will be waiting to argue against you and bring on the best specialists to counter your strategy.
I ask this today, because I am awed by the passion of your arguments, and they are good arguments and ones that defendants like JA could use. I think you would make a great defense attorney.
Sue,
I agree one hundred percent with everything you say. I want to thank for making it so simple and easy to understand. Some posts are just completely over my head…some would say that’s not hard to do, and they would be right, but I can understand what you say and how you say it. Ms. Blink also does a great job. She knows her stuff and I love it. No harm intended toward anyone else. JMOPO.
Re
Sue says:
June 8, 2013 at 10:56 pm
you wrote:
They are severely disturbed people who never would have functioned as well as JA did in the outside world all her life.
YES-Okay she did function well until the killing – why is that?
youre right JA never took anti-psychotic medication to keep her grounded in reality.
So perhaps with proper meds and treatment she could be a functioning member of society again she might be rehabilitated from her one worst deed?
You wrote; JA had relationships, jobs, cars, credit cards, phones, etc.
yes she did
You:
She had underlying insecurities that may have motivated her choices in life, but she was not psychotic or schizophrenic.
As i have shown BPD sufferers can have psychotic traits and no she does not have schizophrenia, but BPD can have several schizoid traits infact In the beginning many Drs wrongly thought they were the same disorder-
or thought they were tied together, or thought BPD was the beginnings of development for Schizophrenia?
Is schizophrenia the only mental health issue other than insanity that could be a consideration for you in weighing the facts etc in this and other cases? even though BPD and dissociation has several of those same characteristics?
can you just write off everything that was presented at trial her whole life before June 4 2008 and chalk it all up to choices made from insecurities?
You wrote:
I believe the criminal justice system has this right. She is a danger to society because she is a threat to others and doesn’t think she has to be fixed.
The Right to kill her because she doesnt think she “has to be fixed?”
Again many mentally ill persons believe they dont have to be fixed &
She may very well be a threat to society or herself or other inmates or Correctional officers—
especially without treatment and meds but with treatment and meds that danger lessens -and she may infact reach the point where her disorders are in total check-
regardless if she believes she needed fixing or not.
part of justice is to prevent- isnt part of prevention treatment and research and study?
AJMO peace
cont part 8
Re Sue-
You wrote:
She is very comfortable in her own skin.
_You dont know that and as i said her the symptoms of the disorders her behaviors and constantchanging goes to illustrate she ISNT comfortable in her skin…
You wrote:
If she is so dissociative, I can’t imagine how she knew enough to clean up and delete pictures on the camera. She followed through with so many other actions and had to have a concept of time too.
_The pics are not proof of the time as blink and i and others pointed out- and they are not proof of deletion by Arias either-
how do we know due to chain of custody issues if those pics were on the camera and not on the card and was the time of deletion reported? IIRC that is an unknown….
_We dont know if she was conscious of the time
her testimony seems to point out that she was not aware of time…
and Flores interviews with the roommates seems to show that she was just barely gone before they arrived- as i pointed out the banister it was still wet to the touch – wetness dries with time … she left behind a mess- the bathroom sink downstairs was full of bloody water she fd-up and left the camera a palm print- blood throughout the masterbath… was it piss poor job because she was in a mad dash or was she in a dissociative state?
_As I have tried so hard to point out with BPD and dissociation even severe dissociation w/out DID it is possible for those in a dissociative state to carry out complex actions and be unaware-
You wrote;
I know I haven’t covered a tenth of what is concerning you. Most of what you post above is beyond my expertise. I can only report on my view through the worm hole of jail and prison. I have been a court officer, so I do have some knowledge of how the courts work.
Thank you I appreciate your time and your info and your perspectives as a correctional officer are sincerely respected.
You wrote:
Perhaps I don’t possess the language to better explain why I believe the verdict of JA was right or why I don’t believe she is mentally ill, but I gave it my educated opinion.
Your language is great- its hard to convey a point through writing for me too
JFTR i am not speaking to what i may or may not believe i am speaking to what Blink once called a highly defendable case-
At first I didnt understand or agree w/her but thru further research and retrospect thru all that was presented and not presented- I agree with her wholeheartedly, perhaps for completely different reasons, still i agree with her.
You
All that goes into a trial like she had, everyone should be so lucky. There was nothing that was overlooked.
if she were my daughter my sister my loved one myself
i would not say she was lucky I would say that so much more should have been done said and presented-
Those pics as Blink said should never have come in the blood evidence and the ME evidence was faulty the MH issues were not presented fully…i could go on but you get my point- i hope
you can not say that nothing was overlooked Blink I and others and even the defense pointed out evidence and info that was overlooked-
You wrote:
She had so many who came to her aid to get her the best defense. Too bad they were up against JM. That’s about the only thing they weren’t prepared for.
Does it matter how many come to the aid of someone?
I get that you respect JM but truly JA did not receive the best defense and JM did not present the best case either-
had the defense done better this would have been made more clear.
you:
I have my opinion on the twins case, but I’m being quite the wordy girl now too. I’ll reserve that for another post. TY
Thanks for each and every word and I look forward to your thoughts on the twin case as well as your other posts too.
AJMO
Peace
Mom3.0 says:
June 10, 2013 at 10:26 am
Sue wrote:
She has a personality disorder
Mom3.0 wrote: Yes, She has more than one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Mom3.0, I did not hear either expert opine that JA had more than one personality disorder.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mom3.0 says:
June 10, 2013 at 10:22 am
Mom writes, “Then he [Samuels] could have been recalled to the stand to utilize Demarte BPD diagnosis to further his clients case-”
~~~~~~~~~~
@Mom3.0, this would not be a good idea, imo. Samuels had assessed, tested, diagnosed JA, and rendered his opinions – and he did not diagnose her with BPD. For him to suddenly agree with the State’s expert and use the BPD diagnosis to justify or explain JA’s actions would have undermined his credibility as well as his level of expertise. Why? Since he didn’t opine that JA had BPD, he would have only been speculating in the scenario you provided. Experts are ethically bound to render opinions, not speculations, and JM would have been more than happy to remind him of that.
But, with much respect, I have to ask why you think that more talk of BPD would have furthered JA’s case? Remember, Dr. Demarte gave concrete examples of JA’s behavior that were consistent with BPD, and also mentioned the BPD criteria she didn’t believe that JA met. She also opined that JA’s self-reported amnestic episode was not consistent with how most individuals experience amnesia or describe such episodes to an examiner. Fwiw, I think she did a really good job of explaining BPD to the jury.
MOM3.0
Since I have been reading along for a few pages, I was wondering, are you playing devils advocate regarding JA and her potential psych dx had she had a further workup? As in, if she had the full spectrum of testing you think she warranted and she still was found to only have BPD for sake of argument, would you still feel she needed a different choice in punishment than LWOP or DP?
being fair- I will volunteer I am in Sue’s camp-
Sue says:
June 10, 2013 at 12:34 pm
I feel I need to clarify my stand on what should happen to JA in the penalty phase of her trial. I am for the DP in some cases where the crime or crimes are so premeditated and heinous as is this case. JA does fit into this category for me, however, if she got LWOP – meaning she can NEVER walk free again, I would feel justice was served. Because of the conditions of her future life in prison, I feel that she will feel the pain of her decisions for a long time to come and that would be worse for her than the DP.
But- I am trying to see where you are coming from, as I guess I too am horrible as Who is bc I have not a hair of sympathy for this gal, zilch. She is a big full of baloney. I totally respect you and your opinions, so I am trying to capture where you are coming from. Thanks for sharing. E.
Mom3.0 says:
June 10, 2013 at 1:45 am
Whodunnit wrote:
So it is hard for me to see Arias as a candidate for the idea that with clear diagnosis, this is a person who could be rehabilitated.
Mom wrote: _Many people with BPD can be treated sucessfully although it is a complex and daunting task-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Mom and Whodunnit, I agree with both of you. It is true that many who suffer from BPD, especially those who have recurrent suicidal ideation/attempts and/or repeated self-mutilating behavior, can be treated if they are willing to stay engaged in treatment. However, I can’t say the same for an individual who may have BPD traits, and who stalked, shot, repeatedly stabbed, and almost decapitated her victim.
An evidence based treatment modality for females who suffer from BPD is Dialectical Behavior Therapy. Medications are added if there are additional symptoms of a comorbid disorder.
Individuals who suffer from BPD generally hurt themselves, not others. These brave individuals are out there every day doing the best they can do with the symptoms they have, and making amends to others when they need to do so. But, not JA. Instead, after her conviction for first degree murder, she does an interview and further disparages her victim. Where is the remorse?
Mom 3.0 wrote:
if this is true does it excuse arias from killing travis- no she murdered another human being and she must be held accountable however if this is true it would go against premeditated and especially cruel and or may factor as a mitigating circumstance-
—-
Mom 3.0, the jury has ALREADY decided that Arias is guilty of pre med and aggravation. Arias cannot be tried for those phases again. If there is a second jury, the second jury receives this info as fact, it is not up for grabs anymore.
I beleive that you may be getting stuck on the idea that the justice system is failing Arias. You repeat that Arias has not had evaluations, or interpretations of those evaluations that would result in diagnosis that Arias iis mentally ill to the point of not being responsible for this crime – and as you have dilligently pointed out, in your opinion there are many indications that Arias is just that disturbed ( as to be alleviated of guilt)
The justice system is not ideal, as we have seen time and time again. Innocents convicted, guilty go free.
But the defense chose to mount their case in a certain way, and the prosecution has done the same.
The defense put forth their case that Arias should not get pre med or aggravation because of their experts testimony. The jury did not agree and have convicted her of those two factors. All that can happen now is a second jury to decide if she gets DP or life, or a plea can be offered.
It is my understanding that appeals can be filed, and perhaps the defense will attempt to appeal based on chain of custody for camera card etc etc, and the psych aspects, which, if your reasoning is followed, are many.
But for now, it is not a matter of what any criminal may deserve in terms of ferreting out psych issues, it is what Arias deserves according to the law as applied this particular case.
I get confused reading some of the posts
What do you want done with Jodi
I heard today HLN that the defense wants to go with a mental defense now
It seems the two of them after talking to Jodi every day now decide she has mental problems
Which to me was simple as soon as Jodi started her 18 days on the stand
Because I believe she is dangerous and could go off on some one else I would like her locked up the rest of her life
No matter what mental problem she has
The DP is not high with me but if that is it that is OK to
@ Mom3.0
quote
“Cutting often occurs during periods of dissociation.
I have a personal belief that dissociation, when it occurs with BPD is actually a panic symptom” (mhsanctuary.com)
unquote
Your posts are fabulous and secured with great information. Someone needs to be the critical thinker or we’d all be throwing the ‘disturbed’ into the pits. I get what you’re saying.
Let’s just remember, despite her knowing right from wrong and going on like it’s no big deal, JA has a heightened sense of gradiose, narcissism, and a warped reality. She is not what I would call a text book BPD because of the lack of self mutilation. She’s a sociopath, is labeled as having BPD. It may not be insane, but the girl is NOT functioning in life like an average citizen. She uses body queues from others, in particular situations, just to blend in. Insane? No? Disturbed and neurologically imbalanced. YES. I’m not a fan of this girl. I’m not giving her an out, but she is legit when it comes to her state of mind and being. Cray cray.
WRT to Mom3.0′s quote….I concur with that statement. I’ve read a lot about cutting. The common explanation, is that is relieves stress or anxiety, with a sense of feeling disconnected from the pain. It’s an unhealthy coping mechanism.
Mental illnesses and disorders are the most complex and most difficult to understand. These are neurological diseases. The brain is NOT developed…for a complete lack of a better word…..normally. It’s off kilter. These people. as evil and creepy as they come across. are not in control of their disorders. In fact, it’s normal to THEM. It’s all they know.
I’m advocating LWOP. It has to do my faith and my faith in God, alone. Travis Alexander paid a big price for crossing paths with JA. He caught on too late. By then, whatever was going on inside JA, had esculating and perhaps morphed into other disorders or tendencies. The stalking, imho, is paranoia. The need to know what’s going and be in control (related to Jodi).
AJMHO, posted with peaceful and respectful intentions. I’m not covering all aspects of posts, since there’s so much. I’ve either helped or created more confusion. Lord, have mercy on me.
RE: Mom3.0
Your research on BPD is very impressive, I’m curious if you have any actual experience with anyone diagnosed with BPD?
I’m 51, have BPD and have been in therapy since 1990, specifically DBT for the past 9 years.
What jumps out at me in your argument regarding Jodi’s BPD is your emphasis on the dissociation related to BPD. It appears you relying almost exclusively on dissociative amnesia as compared to several other aspects, specifically dissociative identity and depersonalization, which are very, very different. Although you didn’t give DeMarte’s explanation of why Jodi didn’t appear to have dissociative amnesia, I found the simple example of the deleting of photos very illustrative. Your reasoning appears to be there’s no evidence Jodi deleted the photos. Really…then who did? Of course it was Jodi. And she had the where withal not to get any blood anywhere else in the house etc.
I do believe Jodi has BPD AND a co-morbidity of other disorders. The very nature of killing another person AS A MEANS OF COPING with stress always involves some kind of cognitive dysfunction. In this case though, the premeditation has been clearly proven and her lack of remorse is appears genuine.
Your statement “perhaps with proper meds and treatment she could be a functioning member of society” seems to imply people with BPD are not already. Jodi’s BPD is NOT the reason she isn’t a functioning member of society, there is something inherently and permanently wrong with her. The evidence is her continued inability to see herself. 99% of the (mostly) women I’ve met and know with BPD understand at some level there is something terribly wrong. The analogy of the alcoholic who must hit rock bottom before they make real change works well; given her interview after the verdict I firmly believe Jodi has no rock bottom.
Unfortunately, the ALV’s, Samuels and her fan club do more to perpetuate the Jodies of the world than they realize. It’s called enabling.
As far as Jodi, it’s past the point of therapy and meds. I’ve spent over $250,000 since 2005 on therapy and meds and I see no true end in sight. Take the $$ we’d spend on her and help some young person who’s still ‘helpable’.
Welcome to BOC Beth.
I sincerely hope you keep working at “you”- I am impressed that you are able to acknowledge your BPD and have sought treatment.
I would like to think that if JA had done the same, that perhaps Travis would be alive today- However, I truly believe that JA’s other comorbids don’t allow her to acknowledge any of this was her fault. I know what she says, but bottom line is she knows what went down and how it got that way and it did not include ANY amnesia or PTSD of any kind.
To your point about enabling, I could not agree more that through various actions and inactions, this girl has been enabled all her life and she is about as skilled as a sociopath as I have ever witnessed.
I personally do not believe she should ever be released in society for the obvious punishment factor, but also because I do not believe there is a known Dx for the part of her that savagely slaughtered Travis, nor is it treatable or manageable in any way.
B
Just wanted to let everyone know i have read your insightful posts
Its gonna take some time for me to respond
“I personally do not believe she should ever be released in society for the obvious punishment factor, but also because I do not believe there is a known Dx for the part of her that savagely slaughtered Travis, nor is it treatable or manageable in any way.
B”
—————————————————————-
This is certainly the bottom line. Hopefully she will be behind bars for the rest of her (un)natural life.
@Beth
Thanks for posting Take care
Beth, thank you so much for weighing in and sharing your experiences of living with BPD. I am wishing you the very best in your continued recovery.
I believe that Dr. Samuels’ diagnosis of Personality Disorder: NOS is more accurate than Dr. DeMarte’s diagnosis of BPD. The problem with fitting JA into such a narrow diagnostic category as BPD is that it implies all of her criminal behavior can be explained by the BPD. It may lead one to think that if she had been treated, this heinous crime could have been prevented. I doubt it, but agree that we will never know. But, if one looks at all the evidence presented, including JA’s testimony, it is clear that this girl has a whole lot more than BPD going on. If you consider all the other Cluster B personality disorders, you will see strong traits from other PDs. JA’s stalking of Travis, murder of Travis, profound lack of remorse and empathy, and lying under oath suggests the presence of strong antisocial traits. Some studies suggest that between 60 to 75% of prison inmates have strong antisocial traits and/or meet the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder.
I can understand the desire to fit JA in one diagnostic category or another given the crime scene evidence. Generally, female offenders do not perpetrate such egregiously violent and bloody crimes. If Travis had stalked and murdered JA in this same heinous manner it is likely that no one would be considering personality disorders and/or mental illness as the culprit.
If one takes the offender’s sex out of the mix, one can see this crime as a culmination of stalking behavior and domestic abuse. When LaViolette was on the stand, I could not help but notice that all the behavior LaViolette was attributing to Travis, was actually JA’s escalating behavior toward HIM.
Can JA be rehabilitated? Probable not. Certainly not as long as she continues to see view her actions as justifiable homicide. In that respect, she is no different from any male offender who refuses to accept responsibility for his crime. Why should she be treated any differently?
Sue says:
June 10, 2013 at 5:19 pm
Sue says to Mom 3.0 – I wish I had a dime for every convict in prison who has BPD or anti-social personality disorder, or any other personality disorder on record. The courts don’t recognize these disorders as leniency in sentencing. They are dangerous traits to have depending on many factors, and there are no passes given, even if there are mitigating circumstances.
@Sue, excellent post and absolutely spot on, in my experience! Most jurisdictions do not recognize the Axis II disorders as a basis for an insanity defense. Many juries reject these diagnoses as mitigators, especially the ASPD diagnosis.
@Malty
Seacat guilty 1st degree murder on all counts. He’ll be 85 when/ if released from prison.
If all the sex had been removed from the JA’s defense, I think her trial would gone much more like Seacat’s. Then again, that WAS her entire defense!
I really wonder how this entire trial has affected ALV’s personal and professional opinions/life. There’s a person with a lot of soul searching to do.
for Mom 3.0
Here is a link to a site that I think you may find interesting. This site is about Arizona courts and findings
about mental illness impact on crime, as well as treatment of those criminals. It does support your point of view that proper diagnosis and treatment can affect crime rates. It also discusses ” Anosognosia”, which is a biologically based inability to appreciate one’s own illness.
But profoundly, the definition of not guilty by reason of insanity remains that a person is only innocent if they have no concept of the wrongness of their actions or the consequences of their actions. There is obviously a difference between competency and mental illness, but this site called ” Treatment Advocacy Center” explores that also.
I rad the info on this site and absorbed it, and dont feel in need of any further discussion about it- but from reading your posts, I think you may appreciate what this organization is talking about.
I still maintain my position that Arias, no matter what her mental illness staus was before or is presently, meets the standard of awareness that she murdered in first degree with aggravation.
The insanity defense is rarely invoked, and rarely succeeds. Promeinent examples of a person who successfully used the insanity defense would be John Hinkley
and “Son of Sam”. Arias is nowhere near as delusional and does not suffer from anything that approaches their state of mind.
oops!
forgot to add link in my post at 5:02
This is for MOM 3.0
http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/legal-resources/key-opinions-and-briefs/1314
Lyla says:
June 11, 2013 at 4:16 pm
@Malty
Seacat guilty 1st degree murder on all counts. He’ll be 85 when/if released from prison
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes. So relieved that justice was served for Vashti’s two little boys, her family and her friends.
@ Beth says:
June 11, 2013 at 8:28 am
Welcome to BOC Beth..and thank you for sharing your personal experience with BPD. It sheds light on a topic with many conflicting opinions.
Also, thank you for bringing up JA’s “co-morbidity of other disorders”. I don’t think many are grasping how this plays into JA’s sense of reality, which is warped and distorted, imo. She is a danger to others….and I think some jurors struggled with putting her together, considering she’s unmedicated, untreated and living with a disorder/co-morbidity. If someone on that jury knows someone who struggles with mental illness or disorder, they’d struggle with appointing the death penalty.
Mental illness is on the rise. It’s still a relatively new subject matter. I had no clue what depression was until I was in my 30′s. I knew I had a form of it since I was very young. So, I lived with it for most of my life, knowing something was not right with my sense of self, but no clue how to pin point the problem.
I do agree with Graceinthehills and Sue about “leniency in sentencing’ wrt to mental disorders. It does need to be weighhed in a DP case, but, if they’re a danger to society, they need to be treated/assessed extensively and/or incarcerated for as long as they are a threat.
These are waters that lawyers, and the justice system, need to charter. It’s not black and white.
AJMHO
@ Beth
quote
As far as Jodi, it’s past the point of therapy and meds. I’ve spent over $250,000 since 2005 on therapy and meds and I see no true end in sight. Take the $$ we’d spend on her and help some young person who’s still ‘helpable’.
unquote
I am so so sorry for what you’ve been through and what you’re living with. Please know you’re being prayed for. I sympathize with your condition and pray you will persevere, one day at a time. Your post has educated me and fellow Blinksters. It was much needed insight and I’m grateful to you for helping us understand how your life is affected with this illness.
I’m also grateful to Graceinthehills, Rose, Mom3.0, Sue and others who have knowledge which, if we take the time to read, can help us with our sense of compassion and understanding. No one chooses to be neurologically challenged, on any level. It’s not a choice.
Sorry for my blathering…again. I understand the stigma, and most people, from my experience, tend to lean towards harsh judgement. It’s a very lonely existence
JA has a little bit of every disorder listed in the DVM 1234…5..678. It reminds me of a color wheel….a little bit of every thing, every color and a result of black. We can analyze her until the cow jumps over the moon. She needs to be kept from society for her life span. I am uncertain if anything can be learned from her because she flew beneath the radar until tragedy struck. When would we have, as a society, ever have stepped in to direct her in a different path or stopped her entirely. She never presented a true threat, she wasn’t a drug abuser, alcohol abuser, petty thief, RSO etc… She never showed a true face of evil. That is what is scary as heck. She is an anomaly, simply that, not fixable, not helpful in prevention, a black shell. How is everyone summer going?
Such a vibrant analogy Ode and you are correct. I am in no way the benchmark of answers about obtuse criminal profiles that to some extent are unknown, but I firmly believe if there is no answer it is possible the reason for same is because it could be worse than the reality. Those of you that know me know I am not one to wax dramatic. Jodi Arias is worthy of the fear of her unknown, imo.
B
@Lyla
I didn’t know a busy day
Super news
Thanks Lyla
kudos Beth. Great analysis.
Your abstract thinking is spot on imo.
Oh my, I have some catching up to do lol.
@ PamSpaz says:
June 11, 2013 at 8:56 pm
Don’t spazzzzz out. (I’m sorry…I’ve been DYING to make such a comment). Thanks for humouring me Spaz…you’re a great sport! Love ya!
Rose says:
June 11, 2013 at 8:26 pm
Agreed 110%. I hope everyone takes time to read these posts. Knowledge is power…SCHOOL HOUSE ROCK! Seriously, thank you to everyone who’s offered their knowledge and taken the time to explain some important and confusing dynamics of mental illness and disorders. It’s absolutely invaluable information. God bless y’all.
I’ll shuddy on my part. A lack of responses to my posts, to me, means I’m not helping the cause. I’m just happy to know there are qualified people here, who are contributing to this subject matter. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! xo
@Ragdoll.
take heart. A lack of response, on my part anyway,
means agreement,
and always appreciation for your thoughts.
Ragdoll says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:40 pm
@ PamSpaz says:
June 11, 2013 at 8:56 pm
Don’t spazzzzz out. (I’m sorry…I’ve been DYING to make such a comment). Thanks for humouring me Spaz…you’re a great sport! Love ya!
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That made me snort lol. Re: your post at 10:44, I read all of your posts. Everyones thoughts, opinions and ideas is a contribution. Although I do understand how you feel, I hope you continue to post. I am not a qualified person (my background is in real estate NOT an agent blink, and paralegal) so all I contribute is my opinions, thoughts and ideas. Love you too.
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@Beth, welcome and prayers to you and your continued journey in managing your BPD.
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Mom3.0 I caught up on the reading lol and will share my thoughts at a later time.
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To all the other posters, great posts and thanks for sharing.
Ragdoll says:
June 11, 2013 at 10:44 pm
I’ll shuddy on my part. A lack of responses to my posts, to me, means I’m not helping the cause.
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Ragdoll- I get the feeling that all the posts are digested, but not all are responded to directly- I know I post a lot of stuff just to get info into the coffer, considering this a “community bulletin board” of sorts, and not expecting a direct reply. I always read your posts,glad you are here!