Jodi Arias Trial Verdict IS IN: GUILTY Of MURDER In The Slaying Of Travis Alexander
Image courtesy Arias
Phoenix, AZ- In the 4 month long trial of Jodi Ann Arias for the murder of her brief boyfriend Travis Victor Alexander, the jury deliberating since last Friday has arrived at a verdict in her case. Arias was found guilty of the pre-meditated murder of Travis Alexander on June 4th, 2008.
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Beth Hello, and welcome to BOC glad to have you.
Thank you for having the courage to share very personal info with me/us
Beth says:
June 11, 2013 at 8:28 am
RE: Mom3.0
Your research on BPD is very impressive,
thank you
____
I’m curious if you have any actual experience with anyone diagnosed with BPD?
yes i have actual experience with sufferers but i am not a Dr nor do i play one. Each person is unique and i would not propose to put all those with BPD in the JA box i am not even putting JA in a box- i am simply offering info and research that the jury should have been privy to, IMO
—
You wrote;
What jumps out at me in your argument regarding Jodi’s BPD is your emphasis on the dissociation related to BPD. It appears you relying almost exclusively on dissociative amnesia as compared to several other aspects, specifically dissociative identity and depersonalization, which are very, very different.
Understood beth, and i am highlighting that aspect because it could go to show how the BPD diagnosis would fit into Samuels and Carps findings.
Diagnosis are interpetations of data-
The TSi showed elevated scoring on secveral scales
these are a few that were discussed:
anxious araosal 65
depression 78
DA avoidance defensive avoidance- 66 no pecific trauma needed or named
dissioaction 73
SC sexual concerns 80
ISR identity impaire self reference- self concept
Identity confusion issues
can overlap w/self image self esteem 83
IE intrusive experiences 61 just below clinically significant
AI anger irratibilty 43
These scales can be found in PTSD and DID as well as BPD …
_____
You wrote:
Although you didn’t give DeMarte’s explanation of why Jodi didn’t appear to have dissociative amnesia, I found the simple example of the deleting of photos very illustrative. Your reasoning appears to be there’s no evidence Jodi deleted the photos. Really…then who did? Of course it was Jodi. And she had the where withal not to get any blood anywhere else in the house etc.
I dont know who deleted the photos
If it were JA she could have accomplished this task in a severe dissociative state- i go into more of demartes testimony in my post to Grace- She may not of been conscious of her actions- we cant know where with all may have little or nothing to do with it- as for the blood- again there was blood elsewhere in the home- not copious amounts but in the sink dstairs it was full of bloody water- and there was blood on the faucets and wash machine as well.
____
you wrote;
I do believe Jodi has BPD AND a co-morbidity of other disorders. The very nature of killing another person AS A MEANS OF COPING with stress always involves some kind of cognitive dysfunction. In this case though, the premeditation has been clearly proven and her lack of remorse is appears genuine.
Thank you for sharing your opinions on the diagnosis- I am not saying i believe one diagnosis over any other all i am trying to point out is that the jury should have had all the ino inorder to make their decisions-
and as for the Premeditation- I do disagree that it was “clearly “proven -
IRT her hiding her trip to Arizona to see TA and all that encompasses it all may have been nothing more than her cont behavior to hide their sexual relationship
the gun from Gramps stolen could have been just a coincidence life is full of them
____
You wrote:
Your statement “perhaps with proper meds and treatment she could be a functioning member of society” seems to imply people with BPD are not already.
That statment was a direct response to anothersposters concerns that a person who suffers from this disorder and kills can not be rehabilitated… i am sorry you took offense as none was intended.
____
You wrote;
Jodi’s BPD is NOT the reason she isn’t a functioning member of society, there is something inherently and permanently wrong with her.
Perhaps we cant know without further evaluations and testing.
____
You wrote;
The evidence is her continued inability to see herself. 99% of the (mostly) women I’ve met and know with BPD understand at some level there is something terribly wrong.
She may have understood at some level that something was wrong- many people do and again her inability to see herself maybe in dirsect relation to her diagnosis as the severity of BPD and PTSD correlates to the severity of trauma and abuse- if her trauma and abuse begin in childhood she may have learned to see all of her illness as her norm— we cant know
_____
You wrote:
The analogy of the alcoholic who must hit rock bottom before they make real change works well; given her interview after the verdict I firmly believe Jodi has no rock bottom.
As I am sure you know Beth that shame is one of the biggest components of BPD JAs interviews again may reflect her not receiving treatment and her need to avoid shame and place blame…
___
You wrote:
Unfortunately, the ALV’s, Samuels and her fan club do more to perpetuate the Jodies of the world than they realize. It’s called enabling.
Actually i am not part of her “fan club” and I will not speak to ALV, as I think she did far more damage then good- but as for samuels what he did was not enabling it was evaluating and diagnosising just because some may disagree with his diagnosis etc is not reason to call him an enabler.
I am not an enabler either- I am simply asking hard questions and bringing up concerns which is backed up with research and testimony etc
___
You wrote;
As far as Jodi, it’s past the point of therapy and meds. I’ve spent over $250,000 since 2005 on therapy and meds and I see no true end in sight. Take the $$ we’d spend on her and help some young person who’s still ‘helpable’.
Its never past the point of therapy and meds- how do you think these tests and treatments were devised? Thru study and research – often times the population that makes up the norm are taken directly from correctional populations and new treatments ar utilized first with these poss and others before ever being given to genaral populations…
I am sorry that your treatmentt has been so costly, that is outlandish.
I doubt very seriously that most could afford it, certainly not JA
and thats very sad that you have to go broke to get better and others wont even have a chance at all..
i dont think the age of a sufferer should factor in as JA was only 27 when this horrible murder occurred…
I wish you cont health and wellness and i so appreciate your time and your insights I look forward to reading more from you.
Peace and welcome
AJMO
Ode says:
June 11, 2013 at 7:43 pm
JA has a little bit of every disorder listed in the DVM 1234…5..678. It reminds me of a color wheel….a little bit of every thing, every color and a result of black. We can analyze her until the cow jumps over the moon. She needs to be kept from society for her life span. I am uncertain if anything can be learned from her because she flew beneath the radar until tragedy struck. When would we have, as a society, ever have stepped in to direct her in a different path or stopped her entirely. She never presented a true threat, she wasn’t a drug abuser, alcohol abuser, petty thief, RSO etc… She never showed a true face of evil. That is what is scary as heck. She is an anomaly, simply that, not fixable, not helpful in prevention, a black shell. How is everyone summer going?
**********************************************************************
Brilliant. I think this goes back to listening to and acting upon our gift of fear.
Not to brag on myself here (ok, maybe a little) but this is something I have worked on for years and years. Being an observer and making pretty “tuned in” judgements of people around me.
My husband has no idea how I do it, and to be honest, other than just observing how well actions match words, there is no real way to describe it.
I’d like to think, as parents, there is something that can be done. Some obstacle or challenge you can put in a path that redirects that persons attention.
Jodi (and others like her) never seem to have congruency. I agree with blink, there are plenty of other people out there who are the same type, maybe not with the same tendencies, but are of similar ilk. It scares me to know that, but it comforts me that I seem to be able to recognize that in quick fashion. (It makes me great at my job, and with the work I do for my husbands small business. I’m the hiring department, me, myself and I)
RE GraceintheHills says:
June 10, 2013 at 7:07 pm (hello grace)
Mom3.0 says:
June 10, 2013 at 10:26 am
Sue wrote:
She has a personality disorder
Mom3.0 wrote: Yes, She has more than one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Mom3.0, I did not hear either expert opine that JA had more than one personality disorder.
Perhaps i should have prefaced it w/ “most likely” as we have discussed here and was discussed at trial to a lesser degree she met the markers for many disorders Dr demarte said she has a floating profile
As you and others have said “comorbidity” which is the presence of additional conditions with the initially diagnosed illness.to indicate a medical condition existing simultaneously but independently with another condition in a patient
JFTR Wilmott crossed Dr Demarte she brought up Samuels findings of anxiety axis1 PTSd acute- then also on Axis1 anxiety disorder NOS- then too the diagnosis on Axis 2 PS NOS they bantered back and forth and Wilmott said PP your realize the PD was not diagnosis as specifically BPD- in addition it was discussed on direct that Demarte may have diagnosed her with adjustment disorder, this line of questioning was cut off again JA she met or exceeded the threshold for potential disorders- Demarte focused on the top 3 scales
I was speaking to my opinion as well as my research along with what info was brought forth in trial
Mom3.0 says:
June 10, 2013 at 10:22 am
Mom writes, “Then he [Samuels] could have been recalled to the stand to utilize Demarte BPD diagnosis to further his clients case-”
~~~~~~~~~~
@Mom3.0, this would not be a good idea, imo. Samuels had assessed, tested, diagnosed JA, and rendered his opinions – and he did not diagnose her with BPD.
Thanks for sharing your opinion grace-
Yes he did render his opinions & he did state he at first thought DID but … ? then the defense cut him off- also what he did diagnosis her with dissociative amnesia- PTSd DO fit into the markers for BPD so he could have been recalled to testify to that
and –
——-
You wrote: For him to suddenly agree with the State’s expert and use the BPD diagnosis to justify or explain JA’s actions would have undermined his credibility as well as his level of expertise.
No not necessarily besides his credibility and expertize was already in question- if the defense HAD recalled him to speak of Demartes findings what it would have most definitely accomplished is to call into question why Demarte was not forthcoming with the info herself regarding PTSD, abuse, dissioaciation losing time blackouts, f fragmentation to include further discussion which may have led the jurors to better understand Jas behaviors and emotions or lack there of = before during and after june 4th and during the trial
he could have explained as well the propensity to lie and what that could mean IRT the BPD sufferer such as dissociation blacking out or perhaps how the lie/S may have been brought about due to Florez flowing info as well as rumors media- etc supplying false memories to fill in what was missing- etc etc etc.
He also could have testified to the very real correlation between Women who were sexually abused at earlier ages are more likely to develop complex PTSD and then borderline personality disorder
PTSD can have significantly negative effects on their social and emotional development, as well as on their ability to learn.
ALSO IMO his testimony, would have succeeded in Samuels regaining some of his credibility back as well as he would be the one to tell “the rest of the story” and also seeing how all areas of his opinion CAN be found as markers for BPD , his new testimony would have only bolstered his findings under a new and prosecutorial agreed label.
Cont part 2 AJMO
Re grace part 2
You wrote
Why? Since he didn’t opine that JA had BPD, he would have only been speculating in the scenario you provided. Experts are ethically bound to render opinions, not speculations, and JM would have been more than happy to remind him of that.
Why because it would have been the right thing to do– regardless of his “credibility”
It wouldnt have been speculating 1 if he spoke in generalities and 2 if dr Samuels broke down Dr Demartes diagnosis and pointed out how it could help the jurors understand his finding IRT JA explaining how Demarte, The prosecutions own expert diagnosis in many regards can bolster his opinions his findings just essentially giving it different label
This is true except for PTSD, which Demarte argued JA did not fit into because of an invalidated test despite the fact that PTSD is one of the most common cormo.ibidities w/ BPD often a precursor
Samuels could have shown how BPD at first came about as a way for Drs to diagnosis a patient who exhibited markers for many disorders and essentially fell on the “borderline “between psychotic, neurotic showing many differing symptoms from a myriad of different disorders,
the defense could have tied it up in a easy to understand way-
“Borderline Personality Disorder comprises both psychotic & neurotic thought processes. This gives rise to the name “Borderline” because it is thought to be on the “borderline” between psychosis & neurosis. The thinking and behavior of a person with Borderline Personality Disorder includes more mental departures from reality, known as Dissociation or “feelings create facts”.”
Then expanded to include sever dissociate amnesia depersonalization etc etc-
The defense could have also brought up the DES and asked question concerning Demarte not finding that JA needed further testing and evaluations to rule out DID as Ive shared before
and also if he would have been able to help the jurors understand how the disorder-occurs frequently with other mental disorders such as major depressive and bipolar II disorders, anxiety disorders, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and with several other personality disorders s to sometimes include DID- had he done this it would have gave his previous thoughts surrounding a possible DID diagnosis more weight not less-
infact had Wilmott researched BPD /PTSD she herself could have crossed Demarte on all these symptoms and Demartes lack of indepth testimony without ever having to recall Samuels – furthermore the defense could have called in surrebuttal a completely different dr- (they did bTW) to testify to these areas Samuels could have been passed over
—-
You wrote;
But, with much respect, I have to ask why you think that more talk of BPD would have furthered JA’s case?
Grace- with much respect if the defense would have followed up with Dr Demarte it COULD have become apparent that this diagnosis of BPD bolsters Dr Sameuels AND Dr Carps diagnosis of PTSD and it could have bolstered the amnesia in the form of severe dissociation
Regardless the jury would have had the knowledge before them and they could have weighed it or disregarded it accordingly.
AJMO
Part 3 cont
You wrote; Remember, Dr. Demarte gave concrete examples of JA’s behavior that were consistent with BPD, and also mentioned the BPD criteria she didn’t believe that JA met.
Yes she did
You wrote:
She also opined that JA’s self-reported amnesic episode was not consistent with how most individuals experience amnesia or describe such episodes to an examiner.
Actually what she said is:
snipped
accurate to the best of my ability
based on my knowledge of how memories are formed she would not meet the criteria…based on her report of it
when people experience a traumatic event its not like our day to day events that we have its hard to remember what we ate for breakfast a week ago… or what we wore its different with traumatic events when they occur they tend to stand out in our minds more which is why we tend to see the development of disorders that we see… but there are times when we can become hyper vigilant and focused on aspects of the event which causes memory loss
the reason why i dont believe that to be the case with ms Arias is because of the way she is reporting the memory loss is not consistent with what you typically see…
she indicated to me that she had a very large gap in her memory
She told me she had a several hour gap… thats not how it typically presents with traumatic memories people… they tend to lose aspects of the incidence small aspects… The only time you would see large aspects of the incidence is if there is a severe head injury I once had a patient with blood coming out of his ears one time… as a result of a traumatic incident….or if there is any kind of a substance abuse involved…. but you dont see that long of a duration…. and the other inconsistencies of her report…
Too long of a gap
whats the other problem
what we see with traumatic memories is the more that people talk about them we see that they tend to gain memory about it and thats part of what we do in treatment they tend to gain stuff that they thought that they had lost…
What I found with ms Arias is that is not the pattern that she displayed…
she reported to me at the time of the killing that she went to go and grab the knife her memory from there was almost completely absent except for the potential memory that she may have put dishwasher completely absent till the point where she hit the hoover dam
with Dr sameuls she reported to him that she disposed of the weapons and changed her clothing
i saw ms Arias after Dr. Samuels the way memory works is the more you talk about thit and ms arias has talked about it quite a bit… in interviews w/ different evaluators. you see an increase of memories even if its a little bit of an increase…usually its significant
i met w. her after so its showing the opposite pattern in typical traumatic memory
Another aspect she reported to me is that when she reached the hoover dam when she looked down at her hands and saw a little bit of blood….. i knew this meant that I killed him
i asked how did u know that u killed him if u have no memory she said i knew i did
that too me is impossible its illogical if all of sudden the person had blood on their hands and you had no memory you would think i cut my finger or what happened not i kill somebody…
Cont Part 4
AJMO except WOWS
Therefore Dr Demarte is comparing JA memories or lack thereof to typical persons typical memory- had she compared it to those suffering from BPD especially with PTSD and dissociation her findings would ahve correlated better IMO
If Demarte would have looked at PTSD past the 6mnths in jail or during Jan of 2007 TA JA relationship, she might have been able to diagnosis JA with longstanding PTSD- she herself brought up those persons (children who suffer abuse having a smaller or atrophied hippocampus- she said JA did not fit this criteria because she “had an impeccable” memory for dates and other info- well um as I have shown those who suffer from BPD/dissioaction and PTSD often have impecable memories for nonimportant facts details – often testing high for memory and recall and processing…
Much of Demartes opinions were skewed toward general typical not thru the lens of her very own diagnosis as shown thru the researh Ive shared.
You wrote;
Fwiw, I think she did a really good job of explaining BPD to the jury.
How did she explain it other than to say PP ; these people tend to internalize aggression hostility day to day they can hide it– they react to a perceived hurt tend to blame others for their behaviors & have violent outbursts and people w this disorder tend to idealize or despise with no in between
AJMO
PArt 5
GraceintheHills says:
June 10, 2013 at 8:09 pm
Mom3.0 says:
June 10, 2013 at 1:45 am
Whodunnit wrote:
So it is hard for me to see Arias as a candidate for the idea that with clear diagnosis, this is a person who could be rehabilitated.
Mom wrote: _Many people with BPD can be treated sucessfully although it is a complex and daunting task-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Mom and Whodunnit, I agree with both of you. It is true that many who suffer from BPD, especially those who have recurrent suicidal ideation/attempts and/or repeated self-mutilating behavior, can be treated if they are willing to stay engaged in treatment.
RE
All persons with BPD can be treated successfully and self harm does not have to be a symptom especially not mutilation cutting – there are other ways a person with BPD can self harm – one way is to continually get involved with inappropriate unhealthy partners controlling relationships etc.
You went on to say:
However, I can’t say the same for an individual who may have BPD traits, and who stalked, shot, repeatedly stabbed, and almost decapitated her victim.
First, the stalking was not really dealt with in court but- — some Dr choose not to treat them because they can tend to lack boundaries and sometimes this leads to such behaviors as over calling after hours to the extreme of stalking –
Second- I notice you said a person who MAY have BPD TRAITS- Demartes diagnosis was BPD- I understand that you do not agree with this diagnosis, iI need to point out if this is her diagnosis a person suffering from BPD is not just exhibiting traits they have the condition. as for the shooting. Stabbing and near decapitation- the person who committed thes acts can as a symptom of their BPD be in a complete dissociate state-
persons who have committed murder but who were released do not always go on to reoffend- IF Arias/ crimes were a part/result of her condition then with treatment and meds the danger of her reoffending is lessened –
___
You wrote:
An evidence based treatment modality for females who suffer from BPD is Dialectical Behavior Therapy. Medications are added if there are additional symptoms of a comorbid disorder.
This is true grace Dialectical Behavioral Therapy & Meds are utilized but the course of treatment is solely up to the DR some find it more beneficial to start with meds because “They are effective in reducing at least three of the four major groups of symptoms of the disorder. They thereby enhance the rate and quality of improvement derived from psychotherapy- medications are effective in treating other emotional disorders that frequently are associated with borderline disorder, for example, depression, anxiety/panic attacks, and ADHD, and physical disorders such as migraine headaches….”
____
you wrote:
Individuals who suffer from BPD generally hurt themselves, not others.
Yes this is generally true but in general or typical is never 100 %
Yes many who suffer from BPD are brave individuals are out there every day doing the best they can do with the symptoms they have- ja seemed to meet this mold until she met travis
Yes it is true for the many who have seek treatment and who recognize they suffer from BPD they try to make amends others are not that far along so they do not recognize they suffer from a mental health issue or dont seek help due to the stigmitism of seeing a shrink or dont because they do not have healthcare to include mental health- and more avoid it because they can not deal with the truth of it-
___
You wrote But, not JA. Instead, after her conviction for first degree murder, she does an interview and further disparages her victim. Where is the remorse?
She may not have remorse because she is not receiving treatment or meds for her condition just because you feel she exhibits no remorse does not make it so- her blunted affects can be part of the diagnosis
AJMO
Cont part 6 ?
Re grace
You wrote:
I believe that Dr. Samuels’ diagnosis of Personality Disorder: NOS is more accurate than Dr. DeMarte’s diagnosis of BPD. The problem with fitting JA into such a narrow diagnostic category as BPD is that it implies all of her criminal behavior can be explained by the BPD.
It may lead one to think that if she had been treated, this heinous crime could have been prevented. I doubt it, but agree that we will never know. But, if one looks at all the evidence presented, including JA’s testimony, it is clear that this girl has a whole lot more than BPD going on. If you consider all the other Cluster B personality disorders, you will see strong traits from other PDs. JA’s stalking of Travis, murder of Travis, profound lack of remorse and empathy, and lying under oath suggests the presence of strong antisocial traits. Some studies suggest that between 60 to 75% of prison inmates have strong antisocial traits and/or meet the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder.
Yes you have the right to opine on all info presented- and some of what was presented at trail bolsters your opinions but the jury did not have all the info to weigh or disregard accordingly did they?
___
You wrote:
I can understand the desire to fit JA in one diagnostic category or another given the crime scene evidence.
JFTR I am not trying to fit her into any category i am trying to underscore the point that had the defnse did the utmost and presented even a fraction of what is out there the jury would have received a different pic- it would still be in the juries hands to weigh the evidence and accept it or reject it-
___
You wrote:
Generally, female offenders do not perpetrate such egregiously violent and bloody crimes.
True, they dont unless there is some underlying mental health issue- makes one wonder just what part Jas disorder/S may have played in her brutal crime
___
You wrote;
If Travis had stalked and murdered JA in this same heinous manner it is likely that no one would be considering personality disorders and/or mental illness as the culprit.
If one takes the offender’s sex out of the mix, one can see this crime as a culmination of stalking behavior and domestic abuse. When LaViolette was on the stand, I could not help but notice that all the behavior LaViolette was attributing to Travis, was actually JA’s escalating behavior toward HIM.
I for one would be considering all factors and info not specifically gender i think the jury needed to be presented with all the info and they could then make better informed decisions- that would especially be prudent in a Dp case-
___
You wrote:
Can JA be rehabilitated? Probable not.
Well we’ll probably never know- because she will either get the DP or she will be locked up for life and IMO will never begin to get the intense treatment and meds that she would need to begin the journey to rehabilitation instead she will likely just get worse
You wrote;
Certainly not as long as she continues to see view her actions as justifiable homicide. In that respect, she is no different from any male offender who refuses to accept responsibility for his crime. Why should she be treated any differently?
Part of administering meds is to help ufferers “see the light” as her blaming/avoidance can be seen as one of the symptoms of BPD and other disorders -
She is no different from any male offender who refuses to take responsibility? IDK I think This isnt a gender issue
_____
You wrote:
Sue says to Mom 3.0 – I wish I had a dime for every convict in prison who has BPD or anti-social personality disorder, or any other personality disorder on record. The courts don’t recognize these disorders as leniency in sentencing. They are dangerous traits to have depending on many factors, and there are no passes given, even if there are mitigating circumstances.
@Sue, excellent post and absolutely spot on, in my experience! Most jurisdictions do not recognize the Axis II disorders as a basis for an insanity defense. Many juries reject these diagnoses as mitigators, especially the ASPD diagnosis.
Interesting enough there has been talk of moving BPD into the Axizs 1 catergory—and yes there are many in prisons with these disorders only proving that they can be dangerous diagnosis- that is why further research and study is needed to understand
And as the judge said mitigating factors are personal the jury was instructed that they may chose any or all that was provided in addition to entertaining their own- and as for leniency in sentencing-
Demarte said it best-
personalities are characteristics on how we relate to people how we relate to the world its carried within us at all times its who we are it what makes us people=== and for those who suffer from personality disorders its not something they can turn on or off- they are mentally ill, and may have no control of these characteristics a that they carry with them always that is until they get proper treatment
Thanks for weighing in Grace always a pleasure to bounce ideas off of you
AJMO
Peace
Maricopa County Attorney Bill Montgomery said Wednesday that his office is preparing for a retrial.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57589007-504083/jodi-arias-update-prosecutors-still-plan-to-pursue-death-penalty-for-convicted-murderer/
RE Eloise says:
June 10, 2013 at 7:44 pm
MOM3.0
Since I have been reading along for a few pages, I was wondering, are you playing devils advocate regarding JA and her potential psych dx had she had a further workup? As in, if she had the full spectrum of testing you think she warranted and she still was found to only have BPD for sake of argument, would you still feel she needed a different choice in punishment than LWOP or DP?
Hi E-
I suppose you could say i am playing devils advocate in the sense that i am not giving my own opinions as to her diagnosis or culpability –
What i am trying and failing (obviously) to do is to bring forth information that Demarte should have known and understood about the diagnosis of BPD,,,
i am trying to point out that she gave an very abbreviated version of what BPD could mean… I tried to point out the DES should have alerted these professionals to the need for further tests to rule out DID
What i am trying to underscore is that all the defenses experts findings could all be bolstered by the symptoms of BPD- dissociation, lying, avoidance, blame , depression, fear, PTSD, selfdefense (IRT what JA may have believed) And dissociative amnesia
the gap of memory demarte testified too as too big could infact be days weeks not just hours and during this lost time the person in a severe dissociative state would be able to carry out executive functions and have no recall of it…. the lack of memory could have been just as JA testified
Does any of this info make it so, no but it could be the truth of the matter we cant know and the jury was not given the opprotunity to even consider it.
It is not about what i believe her appropriate sentence should be it is about what the jurors should have been presented with inorder to gain a better understanding of the disorder and how it in fact could relate to the defnses findings
You wrote;
And dissiociative amnesia being fair- I will volunteer I am in Sue’s camp-
I am sure she appreciates it as do I
Sue says:
June 10, 2013 at 12:34 pm
I feel I need to clarify my stand on what should happen to JA in the penalty phase of her trial. I am for the DP in some cases where the crime or crimes are so premeditated and heinous as is this case. JA does fit into this category for me, however, if she got LWOP – meaning she can NEVER walk free again, I would feel justice was served. Because of the conditions of her future life in prison, I feel that she will feel the pain of her decisions for a long time to come and that would be worse for her than the DP.
But- I am trying to see where you are coming from, as I guess I too am horrible as Who is bc I have not a hair of sympathy for this gal, zilch. She is a big full of baloney. I totally respect you and your opinions, so I am trying to capture where you are coming from. Thanks for sharing. E.
Eloise,
Thank you for trying to understand where i am coming from and what it is i am trying so miserably to convey-
You nor Sue nor anyone is horrible for having or expressing their feelings – I am not talking about sympathy i am talking about figuring out.
As for Sues thoughts i understand and respect them as well as everyones, yours too, but this statement:
if she got LWOP – meaning she can NEVER walk free again, I would feel justice was served. Because of the conditions of her future life in prison, I feel that she will feel the pain of her decisions for a long time to come and that would be worse for her than the DP.
- That is one of the issues i am trying to discuss
- was this a matter of JA conscious decisions- or was she in fact incapable of making such a decision at the time of the murder ?
AJMO peace
ragdoll says;
I’m also grateful to Graceinthehills, Rose, Mom3.0, Sue and others who have knowledge which, if we take the time to read, can help us with our sense of compassion and understanding. No one chooses to be neurologically challenged, on any level. It’s not a choice.
Sorry for my blathering…again. I understand the stigma, and most people, from my experience, tend to lean towards harsh judgement. It’s a very lonely existence
Thanks ragdoll and your posts are always read and always valuable
AJMO
Peace
whodunnit says:
June 11, 2013 at 5:02 pm
Who i am moving backwards.. so this is your first post I am responding to-
You wrote:
for Mom 3.0
Here is a link to a site that I think you may find interesting. This site is about Arizona courts and findings
about mental illness impact on crime, as well as treatment of those criminals. It does support your point of view that proper diagnosis and treatment can affect crime rates. It also discusses ” Anosognosia”, which is a biologically based inability to appreciate one’s own illness.
But profoundly, the definition of not guilty by reason of insanity remains that a person is only innocent if they have no concept of the wrongness of their actions or the consequences of their actions. There is obviously a difference between competency and mental illness, but this site called ” Treatment Advocacy Center” explores that also.
I rad the info on this site and absorbed it, and dont feel in need of any further discussion about it- but from reading your posts, I think you may appreciate what this organization is talking about.
I still maintain my position that Arias, no matter what her mental illness staus was before or is presently, meets the standard of awareness that she murdered in first degree with aggravation.
http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/legal-resources/key-opinions-and-briefs/1314
I am not sure how to respond as you said you do not wish to discuss the link further- I do sincerely appreciate the link and thank you for taking the time to read, i believe everyone should read it not just me LOL
Yikes what a sad sad case My prayers for all involved
As to your opinion on Arias & her standard of awareness that she murdered in first degree with aggravation, although I respect your opinion i believe that this issue is at the very heart of the matter Did she murder in aggravated first degree was she aware or not?
You wrote;
The insanity defense is rarely invoked, and rarely succeeds. Promeinent examples of a person who successfully used the insanity defense would be John Hinkley
and “Son of Sam”. Arias is nowhere near as delusional and does not suffer from anything that approaches their state of mind.
#
– yes i am aware of this as again i am not even considering that JA is “insane” and it was John hinkleys case that began the much needed revisions
AJMO peace
last post for today- just wanted to let Sue and whdunnit know that i fully intend to respond to your very thought provoking posts which i havent got to yet
Much admiration for your critical thinking skills as well as your ability to voice such complex questions and concerns-
and to jean no offense taken its fine that you voice your agreement to others ideas- but please dont sell yourself short- your just as smart as the next guy and i find it hard to believe anything flies over your head that you dont catch- my points do tend to get lost in a slew of words my apologies..
To Ode my summer is going okay thanks for asking
You opined:
I am uncertain if anything can be learned from her because she flew beneath the radar until tragedy struck. When would we have, as a society, ever have stepped in to direct her in a different path or stopped her entirely. She never presented a true threat, she wasn’t a drug abuser, alcohol abuser, petty thief, RSO etc… She never showed a true face of evil. That is what is scary as heck. She is an anomaly, simply that, not fixable, not helpful in prevention, a black shell. How is everyone summer going?
ode for all these reasons and more is why I believe we must study her and treat her and we cant right her off as unfixable for what does that mean for all the potential JAs out there that are flying under the radar as we sit enjoying our summer?
It is for them and for their families and for their potential victims that we must strive to understand inorder to move toward prevention rather than punishment after the fact..
pamSpaz welcome back
Blink as always thanks for moderating and thankyou for allowing us the space to discuss.
Later
AJMo
Peace
I wrote: if she got LWOP – meaning she can NEVER walk free again, I would feel justice was served. Because of the conditions of her future life in prison, I feel that she will feel the pain of her decisions for a long time to come and that would be worse for her than the DP.
Mom 3.0 wrote: – That is one of the issues i am trying to discuss
- was this a matter of JA conscious decisions- or was she in fact incapable of making such a decision at the time of the murder ?
For me the trial boiled down to the evidence shown in court in regards to JA and premeditation. She was thousands of miles away from TA, yet something happened the end of May that caused her to plan a trip to visit Travis in Arizona. JA’s grandparents house was burglarized at that time and a gun of the same caliber that killed TA was taken from the residence. We know of the gas cans and why she carried 3 full cans with her so she wouldn’t be detected in the state of Arizona. We know of the license plates turned up-side down to provide an alibi in Utah(?)(sorry, not sure – the girl got around.) We know she dyed her hair and rented a plain white car that wouldn’t stand out on the road or in Travis’ driveway. We know she came supplied with a gun and a knife when she got to Travis’ house. We know he was taking another woman to Mexico. We know she was obsessed with TA. We know she exhibited stalking behavior before with him. We know that during the struggle in the bathroom, and supposedly Travis chased her down the hallway and she made a right into the closet, she could have made a left into the stairway and run out of the house. For me, this is the area that to me shows me that she had intent to kill Travis. If he was so enraged with her, and she ran down the hall for protection to get away from him, why did she not make a left into the stairway and run to safety outside? Even if you’re in a fog, trying to save oneself would have been a survival instinct. I don’t believe her scenario in his bathroom. I believe she was the domestic abuser to Travis, and wanted to make sure he would never take another woman anywhere again. She ambushed him in the shower and took him by surprise. She stayed in that bathroom to finish the job she started. He had no weapon, and was at the disadvantage. There is so much premeditation in this crime and yes, these decisions were made by a sick woman with a diseased brain. BUT giving her a diagnosis of BPD or whatever only EXPLAINS her behaviors, BUT does NOT EXCUSE her behaviors. Brain disorders, psychopathy, sociopathy, borderline, anti-social, narcissism, and all the underlying disorders that accompany, call it what you may, it is not an excuse and is often the cause of terrible crimes and victimization of others.
My opinion of LWOP with no possibility of ever getting out for her would be worse for her. Death would put her out of her misery. She will never have remorse for killing him. She will always feel deep down that she was justified, but never being free again will make her think about the big decision that blew up in her face. It didn’t work out in her favor did it? The conditions of her new life will be far different than what she always aspired to. And she put herself there. I say let her live it for the rest of her days.
Note – I didn’t get into all the premeditation evidence, but we all know what was presented at trial.
And thanks to all who contribute here for intelligent conversation and to BLINK for such a great forum to do so.
If I could ever get past the point of thinking Jodi is full of crud I could try to consider a diagnosis that says she has a neurological problem or illness. The truth of the matter is that I simply dont buy or believe she does. I do think she’s missing a screw or two or three, but I dont think she’s crazy in a sense that she did not plan this murder or carry it out without full knowledge and memory of what she was doing and did. I think she remembers most if not all of what she did. I say most because even if a person does this and knows it, it is pretty traumatic and I dont doubt that tiny snippets of it might get lost in the stress of those minutes. But overall I think she remembers all she did and does not regret it. She shows no remorse and I dont buy for one second that her life was threatened. Just call me illogical and cold.
Jodi’s descriptions during testimony sounded like nothing more than repeating what her evaluators and/or psychologists said when talking about their theories of her illness and memory. She used the term ‘fog’ as did Dr Samuels. She kept using terms that she learned from each of her evaluators/doctors and would describe her crime and her ‘memory lapses’ in the same terms that I heard them use on the stand. To me it presented as a very smart and cunning person who knows how to manipulate in order to deceive. But not that smart because all you have to do is think and pay attention to what each person said and quickly you see and hear the patterns and words she took from each of them.
I know it sounds judgmental from some standpoint. But stabbing 29 times, shooting in the face, and slitting someones throat is so violent that I dont think it’s difficult to say she’s guilty of a very cruel murder and that it was not out of self defense. I simply cannot find any logic or truth in her accounts of what happened…they dont match the forensics and other evidence I see and hear.
Mom3.0 says:
June 12, 2013 at 6:22 pm
RE Eloise says:
June 10, 2013 at 7:44 pm
- That is one of the issues i am trying to discuss
– was this a matter of JA conscious decisions- or was she in fact incapable of making such a decision at the time of the murder ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Mom3.0, I am reading along and have great respect for you, but I have to ask: What evidence do we have that JA suffered from severe, chronic dissociative episodes? DB would have noticed during his four years with her because individuals who have repetitive dissociative episodes find them very distressing. These episodes can affect all aspects of their lives. Also, JA is telling the evaluator (and testifying on the stand) that the only time she “lost memory” was during the killing and twice before in her teens when she drank so much she experienced blackouts. I suspect she had a problem with binge drinking at that point, because with moderate intake of alcohol we don’t see blackouts.
You asked if she could make conscious decisions at that time of the murder. The answer is yes, imo, based on the evidence presented at trial.
Hey Blink,
my comment from late last night west coast time, early morning for you guys…is still waiting moderation. at this point, I ask you not bother posting it please. I shared personal info to add into my insight and at this point I’d rather it not be “out there” only to be lost in the shuffle.
thanks
Mom3.0 forgive me but my post will be from memory rather than copying and addressing as there is just so much to go back to. You answered my question re: which criminals to analyze to which you replied all (eventually). If that is the case to me this would be counter productive. As Sue previously stated justice would come to a screeching halt. Also, and I know you addressed this but my opinion is that the skewing that would occur from criminals would not benefit any study obtained via that route. Additionally this implies to me that every criminal has a mh issue. I do not think that this is the case nor do I think that someone that has a mh issue commits a crime because of it. There may be some but also some not.
Regarding the memory or lack thereof, the other instances you mentioned would be memories that would put her in a bad light imo. So I am still of the opinion these instances are a matter of convenience and not true memory loss. I am speaking of memory loss that would rise to the levels that would support DID. I do not see anything that would indicate a need to further study her to rule this out. A lot of your statements mention what we do not know. As true as this is for some things a lot of it is not known because it is just not there. I would think that if there were other instances of memory loss whether it rose to the DID level or not, it would most definately come out at trial as it would have supported her claims. Also with respect to DID, I read that not only is this rare, but the cause is from a horrific trauma from childhood that would make the person create an alter as a defense mechanisim. This too would have come out in trial as she claimed abuse as a child but only mentioned being knocked into a piano, a doorway, the wooden spoon and they did not support her artwork. So for me there was no abuse especially abuse that rose to the level of being so horrific that she developed another personality. IMO also typically test are not done to rule things out but rather to diagnose. If a dx cannot be made or if there is a dx and treatment does not help then and only then do you go further. I realize that you see certain things that would require further review, but I just see those same things differently than you do. Additionally, her journals from middle school to the present were anylized. To me there would have been an indicator of abuse in childhood (giving consideration to the reason it does not exist wrt abuse from Travis), of perhaps another personality for the DID if there was one but there was not. We do know plenty, and it is enough to me for the jury to have come to the right conclusion as they did. I am not sure what else they could have come to know that would have changed the outcome. Not everything comes out at trial and not everything needs to.
I know your heart is in the right place to find a solution to prevent, and I am with you on this one. Perhaps the burden should be on the MH community rather than the justice system. Grants, federal and private funding could be obtained to further research and possibly lead to prevention. Perhaps an analysis should be done on highschool graduates before they enter into the adult world. If there is an indication that a person needs treatment or additional analysis than it would be on their family, rather than the taxpayers. Just a thought.
I know that I have not covered a lot from our previous posts. Just mainly wanted to touch on these 2 things.
Also I want to reiterate that although we have different views, opinions, etc. I am in total respect of yours.
If I did not address something we talked about that you would like for me to than please let me know.
I truly appreciate Mom 3.0 and others for taking the time to analyze Jodi so thoroughly, especially for learning purposes but I completely
agree with NaNa. No matter how hard I try, I can’t be objective when it comes to Jodi Arias.
While I know there is some truth in all lies, with Jodi I feel like “she” is one big lie and we will never get to the truth. If you look up the word lie or liar in a dictionary, you will find her fake smiling picture staring back at you. Some things in this world are just pure evil, there are no other definitions, terms or conditions that fit. I hate that I feel this way, but I always go back to that with Jodi.
Mom3.0 says:
June 12, 2013 at 6:22 pm
- That is one of the issues i am trying to discuss
- was this a matter of JA conscious decisions- or was she in fact incapable of making such a decision at the time of the murder ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Mom3.0, this is a good question and I am sorry I didn’t explain amnesia better in my last post.
The answer is as clear and simple as this: People who are unconscious cannot make decisions. Even though JA claims amnesia for the event, we know that she was conscious and aware when she made the decision to kill Travis. What amnesia means is that she was unable to encode memory during the event, not that she was “in a fog” or otherwise markedly cognitively impaired *during* the event.
Hope this helps all to understand amnesia. It is a truly fascinating subject.
The discussion of JA’s psychiatric diagnoses is interesting, but raises a number of ethical issues.
Some argue that JA was “born this way”. Homosexuality, once listed as a psychiatric disorder, is now widely accepted in the western world because of the idea that this is not a lifestyle choice or bad behavior, but, as Lady Gaga sings, they were “born this way.” Obviously there is a dramatic difference between a gay couple living together and shooting, stabbing, and slicing an unarmed man. But, where do we draw the line between “different but equal” and “menace to society” when evaluating people who are innately “different”. Most people with personality disorders do not rape and kill others. Whether a disorder is something the person was born with, or resulted from childhood trauma, theses are not disorders that anyone chose.
It becomes more problematic when discussing punishment. Our society generally shows more leniency to criminals with psychiatric issues. I’m not always sure that is the right thing to do since a “normal” offender has the opportunity to see the errors of his ways and reform himself, will those with mental disorders will likely have these disorders for the rest of their lives.
Our prison system serves two function:
1) Punish the guilty. Hopefully this will allow the guilty party to reform, or at least abstain from further criminal activity, as well as discourage others from similar activity. Is a person suffering from a personality disorder be punished the same as a person without one? IMHO, a person acting by mental illness should not receive harsh treatment. Specifically, such as person should be isolated 23 hours a day on death row. I have no problems with the death penalty, but do feel that current death row practices do constitute cruel and unusual punishment.
2) The second role of prisons is to protect society from criminal activity by restraining dangerous persons, including those with mental or psychiatric defects. There are some people who should never walk the streets again.
There are some prisoners who do see the light and reform, and in selected cases, should be given a second chance. LWOP creates a dangerous class of prisoner with little incentive to behave, and puts guards and other prisoners at great risk.
As for Jodi Arias, when she was arrested she was in possession of a new 9mm pistol and two knives. The only thing she seems to have learned from this ordeal is to bring better weapons.
Mom 3.0
you write to me:
I am not sure how to respond as you said you do not wish to discuss the link further- I do sincerely appreciate the link and thank you for taking the time to read, i believe everyone should read it not just me LOL
—
I sent you that link for Treatment advocacy because I beleive it is a good reference for you in pursuing the theory that Arias mental health was not fully addressed, and if it were, it would excuse her behavior. I really enjoy your posts and your point of view! But I didn’t want to detract from what you are into, or drag this site into a more generalized discussion of the justice system itself, so thats why I said no need to discuss ( on my account!)
You know what is interesting- with all the attention you are payiong to the lack of psych info revelaed in this case, I am having the same feelings about FORENSICS.
So many things that should have been addressed! I really do think more substantive proof from the State would reveal more about Arias true state of mind. For instance, a TRUE sequence of events from when she arrived at Travis house til when she left would paint a picture of what she was doing there in the first place!
Anyway, although I am of the ” no excuse” camp, I am learning alot from the discussion of mental health vis a vis culpability for one’s actions in the eys of the law, and, objectively speaking, I think everyone has a right to their opinion- that is bottom line of why I sent link, you are doing a lot of really great work here!
Hi Mom3.0- Thanks for your in-depth response- I see what you are doing in trying to show what the Def. could have done better to support JA’s cause. Though, I personally don’t like giving them too many ideas. lol.
One thing that has bothered me for a bit though is, many of these diagnoses that have been mentioned have a strong basis for the history of prior abuse such as in childhood. I know Willmott in closing mentioned that as well and once again there goes testimony in with out any proof other than Jodi’s word. To me that is as supported as the pedophile claim. So how does one build a diagnosis on something without any clear and concise proof? They may have some privileged info- but that was not submitted to the jury and therefore shouldn’t be considered as evidence right? So frustrating. And btw, everytime I use that word now- it reminds me of CA- and I hate that-lol.
Blink, do you have any word on how the Alexander family is doing? I see that a motion has been filed by JA’s defense team asking for a delay until January with regards to seating of new jury.
The reason they give is that JA needs more time to gather people to testify for her that would help present her in a more favorable light.
Is it possible that the legal troubles for some of the witnesses that were supposed to testify this time round will be resolved by then?
Is there some significance attached to the January date as in legal advantage to waiting until then?
The Alexander family wants the prosecution to seat a new jury. I personally believe the defense is going to try to present the mental defense in this penalty phase they could not during trial. I sincerely hope the State simply asks Judge Stephens to sentence Arias. I believe that she will giver her LWOP, and I believe that is going to be the net of a failed new sentencing jury anyway.
B
Thank you, to ALL MY DEAR BOC FRIENDIES. I wish I could eloquently explain, without verbal diarrhea, how much I revere, you all. I mean….every single poster, rookies, vets, lurkers, readers….. Y’all are a gold mine, in my heart. I’m grateful this forum is not about egos, but about sharing what we all know and putting it together to get to the truth.
Peace be with you, always xo
This from yesterday:
“Jodi Arias prosecutors. We still plan to pursue the death penalty.”
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/12/18925499-jodi-arias-prosecutors-we-still-plan-to-pursue-death-penalty?lite
From the jury foreman:
“Zervakos gave more reasons why he voted against the death penalty. “You don’t put people to death for being stupid. You don’t put people to death for lying. So I had to weigh all these things.”
“I don’t think Jodi Arias is a menace to society. I think something happened and she’s got to pay for it and she will pay for it.”
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/12/jury-foreman-says-he-voted-life-arias
—————————————————————-
Obviously he was one of the holdouts for the DP. I’d like to know why he doesn’t think she’s a menace to society.
Ragdoll says:
June 14, 2013 at 12:16 am
back atcha ragdoll
@lyla Thanks for the link I have heard him on HLM but not so many details
He seems like he was surprised it was a mistrial
His name is Zervakos. I wonder if English is his first language He seems kind and sincere but reminds me of some of my old co-workers who English was not their first language
Hello Blink and all
I will be unable to post for awhile
Unfortunately my father has fallen ill- and is in the Hospital-
i apologize for not responding to all of your posts right now-
i WILL be back and i hope you will all be willing to pick up the convo then.
Please keep my father in your thoughts and prayers.
Thank you
Mom3.0
@ lyla says:
June 14, 2013 at 4:02 pm
In a previous interview, just after the ‘hung jury’ phase, he believed Jodi was verbally and emotional abuse by Travis. He also indicated she was NOT a very good witness. I wish he elaborated on why he felt she wasn’t a good witness.
”
http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2013/06/jodi-arias-jury-foreman-voted-against-death-penalty-travis-alexander-murder-verbally-mentally-abused/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330310/Jodi-Arias-jury-foreman-Bill-Zervakos-speaks-say-sure-abused-Travis-excuse-murder.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/24/arias-jury_n_3330897.html
IMHO,the foreman bought those emails at face value. He hasn’t specified if he’s read those emails intact, but he’s still claiming….
-snipped
“…. there were multiple mitigating factors, including Arias’ age, the fact that she had no criminal history and her “dysfunctional” family, which led him to vote the way he did”.
AND AND AND……
-snipped from same link
Most notably, as he expressed during an interview with “Good Morning America” the day after the judge declared a mistrial, he firmly believes Arias was abused. “All of the testimony that I listened to — and that I actually heard as well as read… I do believe he verbally and mentally abused her,” Zervakos said. “There was just too much evidence. That… you know. Again not an excuse. And believe me I’m not painting Jodi Arias as a sympathetic figure.”
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/12/jury-foreman-says-he-voted-life-aria
One juror, right? He stands firm on these convictions. No change, there. It bothers me he doesn’t see her as a menace. He obviously hasn’t read about the evidence, which was not brought into trial, unlike some other jurors. I know I’d wanna know, if there was more to the truth, especially if it was available right at my finger tips.
@ PamSpaztaztic….
Thank you, friendy. Muuaaaahhhh!
Holy crap! The cutting and pasting, I screwed up royally. Sorry dudes. Long day. Longer night. xo
I think the Jury foreman missed all the evidence presented. Jodi wasnt convicted because she did something stupid, or that she is a liar. She was convicted because she planned out a murder and then executed it in the most heinous way possible.
The foreman believes Jodi was abused by Travis and by her family and so she snapped. And that is why he wont give her the death penalty. He tosses in a few factors that dont make sense…like her age (which is not a child and she definitely knew right from wrong). Unless you are a child then age doesnt come into play in my humble opinion.
Defense tried to show text message exchanges and email where Travis says ugly things to Jodi (they called it character assassination). What I heard was a man who was upset with her behaviors that pushed him over the edge so much that he let whatever was in his brain come out without the normal filter. I clearly see a picture of a manipulative woman…though Im not saying Travis was a saint. Travis had an ego because he was successful, and he obviously took any and all sex that Jodi offered to him without genuine feelings for her. That’s wrong and not uncommon. Guys are tempted by good looking women who ‘put out’. He acted on his temptations and it seems that each time he acted on that temptation Jodi had some surprise for him that included a lie or pack of lies. Maybe not every time, but I get the picture. She used her seductive ways for other goals.
As Blink once said, Travis sensed Jodi had serious issues and he continued to play with fire and the cost was his life. Tragic, tragic loss.
When I listen to Jodi in interviews and observe what reporters say about her…about how she wants the interviews and how important they are to her ego. How she’s not worried about what is happening to her as much as she does her makeup and the facade she puts on in front of the camera, I see a woman who is definitely missing the normal emotions that most of us have. So I recognize that she does not fit the ‘norms’ of society and yet, just because she has some mental issues does not absolve her of this evil thing she’s done and I dont feel sympathy for her. She knew murder was the wrong answer and that’s why she tried to cover it up and hide from it.
If this was a man who was charged with the very same crime and had murdered the same way, nobody would ask about his mental state and whether he was abused. They would call him a monster and say he deserved to die.
What I really dont get is why people feel the need to focus on mental issues as if it would somehow explain or that we ever could explain why Jodi or anyone else would kill and do such terrible things. It’s not all attributed to maladjustments in life…we all have those. It’s attributed to evil. Evil resides in this world and each person is tempted with evil many many times in their life. We all seem to want something to blame other than ourselves…and maladjustment and diagnosis of any mental illness is just one more way to remove ourselves from the responsibility that we do evil things.
Being a Christian I know that we carry a sin nature with us…it’s natural for us to act on evil and not natural for us to be good. Even as children we dont have to be taught to lie or be bad…it comes naturally. We teach children to do good things. Some people in life, who dont know the Lord, not only have their own sin nature that they are slaves to, but they also listen to the temptations from the enemy and his minions. They constantly entertain thoughts of destruction. Christians will understand when I say that Satan roars like a lion seeking to destroy and that is constant. He does not want peace or anyone to know who God really is. He wants people to kill, hate, and do other destructive things and especially if they attribute what they do to God or ‘religion’ in order to distort who God is. That is the goal…because Satan deceived himself when he said he would rise above the Most High (God). That will never happen, but he continues to try to deceive the world by making things seem like normal thoughts. We already have the nature that wants to dwell on evil, he just provides and introduces more thoughts that keep us dwelling on it until we act on it.
So while we are trying to blame everything on our circumstances in life, or mental illness, etc. And we try to diagnose and disect these individuals as if one day we can prevent them from acting out in these ways…or understand why they do it. That will never happen. People do evil things because people act on what they already are and they are influenced by evil constantly. Jesus came so that we didnt have to be slaves to sin and evil…he came to set us free. If we accept his payment on the cross and receive LIFE from him, we no longer are controlled by sin but can choose otherwise through his power that lives in us.
Although I said I dont have any sympathy for Jodi, that is partially an untrue statement. Do I think she’s evil…oh yes. What she did was a pure demonstration of that. But what I do find myself thinking out of love is that it’s so terrible that she felt that she needed someone or something else to fulfill her so much that she was willing to kill…or felt driven to kill. I think she killed to shut Travis up…so he could not tell their friends and family about the crazy things Jodi had done. I think that’s the reason for the slit throat…the symbolism of “you will never talk about this to anyone”. She had lost control and couldnt undo all the craziness and the snare she had gotten herself into…the web got too tangled. Her only way out (illogical as it was a choice) was to kill him to end it. Again the enemy deceived her because after she committed the murder to cover up what had gone wrong, the light was more brightly shown on her for who she really is and so the lies were exposed anyway. Maybe not the lies that Travis would have told their friends and family but far worse than she ever could have imagined…and now she’s going to pay by sitting in a cell and being a nobody for the rest of her natural life. She will never recover from that. Derranged as she is and as much as she does not regret that she ridded the world of Travis, she will regret what she did because it cost her freedom. She will feel like a nobody, she will be treated like a nobody and prison life will be harsh and destroy all her dreams.
No person is a nobody – every person has value and purpose. Christ loved the World so much that He was willing to lay down his life so that we would have an identity with Him (as his child). But many people buy the lie that they are not loved, that they have no hope, that there is nothing in life. Life’s circumstances sometimes distort the reality that we can make choices and that God did come to save us. I see many examples of that in scripture – we as humans are constantly making the wrong choices…that’s why we need a Savior to save us from OUR sin and our own destruction.
Mom 3.0
I will pray for your Pop. Draw on your faith like it is air and you know how to reach me if you need me.
Love and strength my good lady.
B
@Mom3.0
I’m praying things turn out well for your Dad..big hugs for you and your family.
The killing of Travis Alexander is a high profile case and will continue to be such until Jodi’s fate is cast in stone.
There are some similarities that are interesting in the case below. Wolter used five knives and stabbed his girlfriend 70 times. The article states he had documented brain damage. The killing happened in 2011. A much speedier trial than JA and obviously not high profile. He was sentenced to LWOP.
Vancouver man guilty of aggravated murder in stabbing of estranged girlfriend
http://www.oregonlive.com/clark-county/index.ssf/2013/06/vancouver_man_guilty_of_aggrav.html
NaNa
Your post is priceless. I think it is the best I have heard in very long time, if ever. I agree with you 100% and I thank you writing it. I know the Lord in a vey personal way and He is not to be mocked. What we sow is what we reap. You are a blessing and an asset to BOC. May God bless you always.
Mom.3…I will be praying for your day. God is always good and God is always right.
@ mom3.0
Prayers to you, your family and your father.
Love and prayers for you, Mom3.0 and your daddy. You have many here who are only too happy to pray for his quick recovery. May the Lord be his medicine to perfect health. Yours in Christ and with much much love….
xo xo xo
Mom3.0 says:
June 15, 2013 at 1:19 am
Mom3.0, I am so sorry to hear your Dad is ill. I will be keeping him, you, and all of your family in my prayers.
Jean, thank you for your comment but mostly thank you for your prayers and blessings (which mean more than anything to me).
So excited to hear that you know Jesus in a personal way. I definitely am not ashamed of the Gospel and would not want ANY person to be separated from the God who loves them more than we could ever understand or imagine.
@ Mom .0
So sorry to hear your dad is ill
Parents are so important in our lives
Prayers
@Nana
Your posts always move me
It is a hard to not care about Jodi and I wish she had been able to get an good education and have had enough love
Not to be so desperate for love
I wish what ever turned her off emotionally sometime in her life never happened
That said she committed a Murder 1 pre med crime and as with any of us she must face her future what ever that is
Thanks for you thoughtful post
@Lyla
Thanks for the local post
I do not understand why stabbings are over kill
So many cases like this
Nana 6/15 @ 0926
Spot on. Hallelujah!
hervness says:
June 12, 2013 at 3:33 pm
We share the same experience as I did much of the same for my husband in regards to hiring new people. I must admit I hired some really wonderful people but I also hired some that made me go “what the hey was I thinking”.
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A Texas Grandfather, happy happy Father’s day to you. I am sending you a virtual Bolo necktie Texas style. Blink I hope you are with your daddy today. I see you cooking up an omelet with herbs from your garden. To all the other caring Dads here at BOC hugs and hoping you get to be with all your dear children today.
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Mom 3.0 a very very special happy Father’s Day wish for you and your Dad…I hope he will be better soon!
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Ragdoll, You are so very special and kind. I am so glad when you post because your light always put a smile in my heart and confirms that kindness is just a post away which is why I never fail to embrace what you write.
My sincerest and most loving Happy Father’s Day to all of you Dad’s, Mom’s that double as Dad’s or The very important Dad figures for those who may not have one. I am fortunate to have the best Man I have ever known as My Popsy and I want to make sure that we let them know that today. Thanks for letting me tag at the end of your comment Ode
B
Lyla, interesting post re: OR man who murdered/stabbed his girlfriend. I have said from the first time I heard of this case, the only reason it seems ‘special’ is that JA is a pretty (?) woman. The jury foreman also confirms this inequality in our justice system.
Mom, didn’t read all the above though I gather your Dad isn’t well, my best wishes for you and your family.
I did have a longer response to the many points you’ve raised re: JA’s BPD diagnosis but will only address the one that most confuses me now, the issue of dissociative amnesia.
If Jodi’s dissociative episode stems from the BPD, she would have had episodes, presumably many, previous to the murder. Of the various forms of dissociation, amnesia is the most severe and unable to control. She would have had these in any numerous stressful situations and it’s not something people can hide and other don’t notice. I suspect she may have episodes of depersonalization and that may not be apparent to anyone around her. Most people with complete dissociation cannot even drive as they never know for sure when it happens, it’s almost akin to seizures.
Perhaps she really did get amnesia FROM the killing, but that is by no means part of a mitigating circumstance FOR the killing.
RE: the most recent events, the motion to delay, I can only imagine JSS is far beyond done with this case, will deny the motion, sentence JA and let the appellate courts deal with it. Hopefully.
Mom 3.0 – I hope your Dad is feeling better and is back on his feet soon as grandfather and father and whatever other title he may bear. God speed a quick recovery for him.
Beth
“RE: the most recent events, the motion to delay, I can only imagine JSS is far beyond done with this case, will deny the motion, sentence JA and let the appellate courts deal with it. Hopefully.”
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Ditto..
Love the bolo tie gift, Ode. Wish I had thought of it. Best wishes to ATG (and all) for a happy father’s day.