Kyron Horman Missing: New Years Eve Settlement Ends Horman Marriage
Portland, OR- In a surprise court hearing, Judge Henry Kantor signed off on the agreement between Kaine Horman and Terri Moulton Horman to end their marriage this afternoon.
Details of the agreement have not been released publicly, but according to KGW, a financial settlement to include child support and a lump payment to Terri Horman has been reached.
In what can only be described as a bitter family court feud- the divorce matter was last in court on December 16th to decide if the Horman landscaper, Rodolfo Sanchez Estrada -who alleges Terri Horman tried to hire him to murder Kaine Horman at a lunch meeting – would testify.
Judge Kantor has not yet filed an order from that hearing but Attorneys for Terri Horman were granted a continuance from the pending temporary custody motion scheduled for December 19th and 20th.
BOC Associate Editor Tarin Kenley contributed to this report.
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@ Rose glad you found your way to the discussion and you are probably right CWD may leave the discussion to add to their site I still can’t give them the same rating of 48 hrs or 20/20 But I may watch about those 3 little boys that disappeared on Thanksgiving 2 yrs ago with their dad Or look into that case on my own
Kaine and DY are doing the best they can in their own way IMO to bad they can’t comfort each other more
I think it would help both of them Just to talk about Kyron
How precious he was /or is to both of them
If the Davidson sisters distance from Soldier,
1) they’ve discovered Soldier’s FB pleas for $ associated with a
national tv showing only brought in $110, and
2) DeDe caution, as Soldier repeatedly vilifies her on CWD comments
and when asked “Who added her?” Soldier replies “I added her”
because “she added herself on June 4.” That goes against multiple
admonitions you say Davidson was given by the County.
Correct. And her own counsel.
B
I will say this about the nurse from Astoria and her post about DY she offers no proof and even if she believes her story it is still a mean post to a mother who has lost her son I checked as much as I could find and her first post of this story was May 29 2015 I don’t like reading it
agreed
B
@mbs. about that school safety work product.
task force, established by a House bill, does in fact have Heidi’s powerful House dad as its SOLE House member. And of course she sits on it with her dad as Gov Brown’s repr.
http://www.osba.org/~/media/Files/News/2015-04-01_OTFSS_Newsletter_%20Issue5.pdf
this State is too incestuous politically
in terms of legislative & exec branch controllng participants.
So I suggest Jeff & Co’s work product is probably worth the equivalent of wallpaper, and this TF imo was created to allow Jeff and his Gov-employed progeny to rub shoulders with powerful public safetyemployees (Sheriffs, Fire Dept, SchoolAdministrators org –all reporting back to orgs with many Union members )
———
rather than C Anthony, I suggest the case Moawad had just finished up losing, & was publically criticized for by jurors (2 comment in url below) in May 2010, was more likely in play when the determination whether to proceed to trial on the DA’s Office’s 2010-11 work product was made after a no true bill.
2 jurors’ comments are relevant to the trial outcome (not guilty) which they attributed to the quality of the PPB investigation & Moawad’s case presentation… ie jurors say for example entering emails of an alleged co-killer’s wife (her husband confessed & fingered #2 to reduce his sentence) without entering testimony from the sender to explain the emails so that the sender could be sibject to cross. That would be like Rees entering Terri’s emails without context from her.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/05/jury_acquits_shawntell_moses_o.html
Juror: “The DA Punished the (victim’s) family by putting on a case that had reasonable doubt to any reasonable person”
I havent reviewed the transcript but going from the media account alone- I can tell you I have studied substantially similar cases that were actually overturned on appeal, vacated and as I recall the Supreme Court found that prosecutorial behavior actual misconduct.
B
kind of a pity the DA did not bring Terri to trial
in 2011 and get similar juror comments post-trial.
then Terri’s outcome would have been resolved & could
have played no role in custody.
@mbs. I missed on first reading of that url the crux of the school public safety matter:
“the current plan calls for a vendor to be selected next year” (to create a data base of school physical diagrams & district plans for 1st responders).
keep your eye on whether the contract bidding for database development is competitive and what entity becomes the State public safety vendor. And how much that vendor donates to various candidates. Hope this contract and its management by the Gov’s Office is an improvement over health ins database vendor.
@tkg wrt
thatkewlgirl says:
November 30, 2015 at 9:22 pm
re: Stalking in Oregon
This article is about a case where our judicial system is allowing threatening behaviors against innocent people in Oregon to continue… and why people like WS lunatic get to walk around and threaten others even when confronted in the system with their threatening actions. Broken system. I guess it’s going to take actual physical attacks to get the courts to realize these insane people need to be forced into mental health treatment, and then jail. (IMO)”
http://blinkoncrime.com/2013/12/31/kyron-horman-missing-new-years-eve-settlement-ends-horman-marriage/#comments
House Public Safety Committee Fixture Jeff Barker, and his daughter Gov Brown’s Public Safety political appointee, need to get on on this Legislation job. Jeff and friends can get it done.
imo there are No real legislature Reporters in this State, none, focusng on nepotism and Kate’s holdover hangovers whose donor-endorsement support she wants for her own election.
I haven’t written Gov Brown I am interested in her child safety also
I still think if Skyline had run things a little differently that SZ would have passed it by or left after he went inside
and sized up the situation. And that is sad I hope Gov Brown really has a plan and not just show for her election
I am not sure about her yet
http://www.oregon.gov/GOV/Pages/requestassistancesent.aspx
For what it is worth I did send a request for assistance to Gov Brown to look at the Kyron case. Very short
No excess info.
I ask Gov Brown to review Kyron’s case I have very small hope But at least his name went there to her office
Now I got to get groceries LOL
I would like to know why not one reporter, not even WW’s, bothered to ask either of the parents if they held the school negligible. The reporters all were quick to jump on the reports showing all the changes that were NOW going to be implemented after Kyron’s disappearance, yet nothing, nothing at all about what procedures weren’t followed that day that were already there. We all know from research there were plenty. Why wasn’t that reported? Hmmmmm? Who is controlling our press?
Let me see if I have this right. Kyron was seen outside by a white pick up. Desiree believes that’s when he left with Terri?
She believes that because she has multiple witnesses saying they saw Kyron, Terri & Kiara walking outside toward the truck, they left together. Even though no one actually saw them enter the truck and leave the premises.
But these witness accounts actually were earlier in the morning, not long after the threesome arrived and went back to the truck to fetch Kyron’s backpack and jacket? (but she thinks this is between 8:45 and 8:55, why?) (And then throw into the mix, we have another witness, TP, who says he saw Terri leave sans Kyron.)
Then we have witnesses who say it was Kyron who left Ms. Matthews room with an unknown man to go outside and help him get something from his truck. Desiree does not believe this. Why? Does she think these witnesses are mistaking some other boy for Kyron? I mean unless there’s some other child missing, that child can certainly say whether or not he was the one who went out to help someone, right? If no other child says they were that child, then doesn’t that mean it has to be it was Kyron?
If LE, as we know they did, initially said Kyron was last seen around 9:00 am, and then came back and said we were mistaken, it wasn’t Kyron. Does that not tell us that they do not believe that the boy asked to help in Ms. M’s room, was Kyron? If so, why did they doubt the witness(s) is it because, the witnesses were children? Is it because, the timeline wouldn’t fit their persecution of TMH? Or is it a combination of the two? Apparently the adult witnesses were interviewed by Houze, and he found them to be credible. IOW, they hadn’t changed their testimony that they were pretty sure it was Kyron that was asked to help. So, if so, knowing this, why doesn’t DY believe that?
I guess, to this day, I don’t understand why there would be confusion here. Why no accurate timeline given by LE after 5 1/2 years?
@Malty. The OR task force plan is not from Brown. It is the fruit & work product of Jeff Barker & his daughter (and cover TF members) signed into law and embarked on under Kitzhaber at a time when he was weak & looking for legislative allies (who required quid pro quos). The Vendor selection & whether the Co is competitively selected will say a lot. Bidding & monitoring the contract keeps Heidi necessary to Brown imo.
We all want to know what happened to Kyron. This is not about who is right or who is wrong, because none of us knows the truth, but to be advocates of the truth and anyone who truly wants to know what happened to a little boy who went to school and disappeared should not be afraid of where that truth might lead.
I can certainly understand a parent not being ready for the truth, but the school, LE and the community should want to know more than they have been privy to 5+ years later and yet no one with a license to wants to drive this bus. Things aren’t always as they seem.
“Free your mind and the rest will follow.” – En Vouge
Brava..
B
OR schools are negligible (per yearly academic testing where the self taught do fine and most who need to be taught do not)
and negligant in kyron’s school’s failure to follow pps policy wrt basic fair and visitation procedures in most public schools (signin sheets & name tags). Kaine hadn’t an older child & school visitation protocol experience. And he clearly hadn’t embarked on school visitation norms with kyron. So he had no idea what normal fathering vis a vis school events was/is.
Over on WS the Soldier posted a long page of media reports as her proof and time line I had to smile as we remember how slanted some of those reporters were On Oregon live But it did spruce up her page some what
I was real tired of her gut feelings she seem think was proof of what ever she said now she has links
Just like everyone else And a timeline And answers her people questions with check the timeline.
Amuses me
I watched Gov Brown at that shooting in Roseburg With Pres Obama I really think she is not comfortable with us here in Oregon But we will see if she wants to make things better For our State or not
O/T
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Facebook-CEO-now-a-father-will-give-away-most-of-his-money–359716871.html
@erose re
erose says:
December 1, 2015 at 2:00 pm
We all want to know what happened to Kyron.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2013/12/31/kyron-horman-missing-new-years-eve-settlement-ends-horman-marriage/#comments
ditto brava.
Our perspective is that of outliers because we are not local.
Tiny, who is, says everyone local universally feels they DO
know and it was Terri..a family strife issue.
That is some stigma for Kaine to bear. No wonder he had to
import a livein from CA rather than date a local from his professional peer group.
Thank you Blink and Rose, Will there ever come a day when it goes without stating our intentions? When will it go without saying?
I believe erose.
B
@TRuth, You’ve explained the thought process so well, as usual.
T. Ruth says:
December 1, 2015 at 1:16 pm
@Rose, I thought of Tiny’s words as well. There is a wall.
Rose says:
December 1, 2015 at 9:27 pm
IMO I believe many people believe Terri did this and knows where Kyron is Not just people like the Soldier but people who have looked at the situation and believe I don’t really because I can’t see the motive at all it is just hard to believe a woman who cared for this child did this but I am aware the day may come when I am proven wrong
There should be a open mind on both sides as we search for truth The methods used by hate sites have made keeping a open mind hard. Also makes a person want to dig in and refuse to be open I have to ask myself are you really so sure or are you just wanting the Soldier to be wrong
I can see why the bio parents are confused Aren’t we all
Then there is the issue we don’t want this to ever happen to another child Fear for the children we know and love
And the children in our neighborhood out playing after dark Carefree and laughing. Fear for all of them
And so it goes
Well said Malty. For me, my education, training and experience in investigating cases like this, as well as this case in particular have not produced a scintilla of evidence pointing to TH involvement or culpability in his disappearance. Same goes for the alleged mfh plot.
About 7 years ago I made the decision to alter my educational and career path to the various areas of criminal justice and criminology/analysis. In the beginning I was pretty sure I wanted to go to law school and become a prosecutor. I can honestly say that over the years the further I got, the more case studies I analyzed/presented I have learned that something a DA said to me in a case I worked on personally would forever ring true.
Because it is privileged, i cant supply exact context but in the abstract I had just finished analyzing the confession of a suspect who I was certain was lying about their level of culpability in a murder case. Previous to this juncture, I developed information that required the DA to remove jurisdiction from local PD and transfer the case to State Police. (footnote here: this jurisdiction is now required to call in State Police assets for certain cases) Basically- I was told because of the hot mess created by the initial investigators this was our only shot at prosecuting this defendant and that I needed to realize it is a system problem and it is pandemic. The DA told me that the problem is in the career path of cops. Moving to detective is the only way out of a patrol car and making higher incomes and pension match- but about 90% of the time good cops make lousy detectives and good detectives make lousy cops. Respectfully submitted- I have run that by countless detectives, attorneys, DAs Professors and Instructors and not once has their been disagreement. One thing I will say is that also through the years I have had the distinct privilege to work with, be mentored and trained by what I consider to be some of the finest investigators in the world. Once again, the large majority of PDs do not ever have that opportunity in multiple case disciplines and subject matter- not their fault.
Which brings me to my point (may wanna grab another Sanka).
In fairness, I do not have permission to post additional information I have from an inside source I believe will solidify for most reasonable people that actions outside of the scope of their duties and acceptable protocol on behalf of several members of MCSO and members of Norm Frinks office have not only violated the civil rights of TH- but quite possibly have violated the laws of the Oregon Supreme Court wrt to Grand Jury statute.
I am told permission is forthcoming
B
Desiree did the investigation no favors dumping
vile stuff on the public about Kaine & Terri…he
whores around, she’s a drunk–ditto for Kaine &
his divorce filing. Both shoukd’ve kept the focus &
pressure on mcso. Kaine should’ve kept the mfh story quiet
unless there were charges. The County wall is not Blue. It is PTA
parents & locals who believed all the bad publicity the bios
put out about the Horman family.
—
Desiree’s dishing also made sure no reputable local of his professional
class would consider dating him imo.
@TRuth. What has LE not given an accurate timeline, accurate abduction event info, much less SZ’s image or sketch, & so on?
The words unprofessional & negligent come to mind.
It would open mcso & its personnel up to civil suit liability.
Thanks, y’all, for hearing me. Part of the local conviction that TMH is guilty is that allowed them to send their darlings back to school with no fear. I can not overstate.
That Friday and the following week, until the evil stepmother narrative gained traction, people were pretty freaked out. I am local but not in PPS, we were posting pictures of Kryon everywhere. I had a stack and put up plenty and I’m on the outskirts of the area.
Locals believe TMH is guilty and the only thing missing from the story is Kyron, physically.
Those who are guilty of gross negligence are pretty fricking lucky imo that people love the evil stepmother story. Welcome to Fantasyland.
@Rose says:
December 2, 2015 at 8:28 am
IDK, Rose, but I think that door was opened (and remains that way) long ago. Matter of time and timing. I don’t see how releasing a timeline for Kyron will cause any furtherance in that regard.
The only reason I can see for them not releasing a timeline is it would possibly alert the perp to something. What? IDK. They had no problem releasing portions of TMH’s timeline, which was ludicrous looking back, because we know TMH was not the one who removed Kyron from the school. Why release something like that if you truly think she is the perp?
Where was Kyron? Where was he seen at what time all morning before he was abducted? There had to be a number of people who saw this child, here…there….inside….outside. No reason to have to give any witness names, just say where this child was seen at what time.
8:10 Kyron seen arriving at school.
8:12 Kyron seen walking back to truck.
8:15 Kyron seen hanging his backpack and coat up in classroom X.
8:17 Kyron seen having his picture taken in front of his project, located in classroom X.
8:?? Kyron seen in the gym with friends, nearest exit X or in front of windows north south east or west.
8:46 Kyron seen in hallway between classroom X and classroom Y heading north south east or west.
9:00 Kyron seen exiting building X via doorway Y with an adult male.
(I made this up ^ the times, the order, etc.)
Is that it? Is that all there is? Is the order correct? Why would LE not want to give out such information? This wouldn’t make them look any worse than they already do, would it? If they were to do this, then DY would have clear information, as would everyone else, including SZ. How could releasing this information cause any harm? This puzzles me. Are they withholding this information because someone has already been caught in a lie as to where they saw Kyron? IDK. Scratching head. Is it because someone said they saw Kyron at a certain place and time and another person said they Kyron at the same exact time in a different location? Geeze, IDK, but I wish they’d do something to put a fire under this burner!
civil rights.
the first person some of whose civil rights
were violated is kyron, tho surely terri & kiara’s were too.
if kaine had any Ba…, he’d have retained an independent attorney for kyron
way back.
the civil rights defendants? pps & mcso.
I listened to my temporary red state’s version of npr this am &
a couple competent Chicagoans were on (one I infer a
long time reporter) who by & large focused on a request
for a DOJ review of police as to civil rites violations.
if kyron had been black.
in Mult Cty’s pps,
imo way different investigation
and press.
—
I have never understood why the OR local US Atty Office never investigated
Mult Cty govt organs for civil rights violations as to kyron kiara & terri by pps & mcso.
Perhaps some doj supervisory bureaucrat
did not want a contemporaneous successful court-supervised settlement of the case
against ppb wrt mentally ill to get off track.
—
whatever A Marshall OR USAtty resigned for, alleging ptsd,
she was a child trafficking prosecutor advocate. Whatever she went
off the rails about, her usurping bureaucrat
#2 B Williams & #3 S Keran to me imo are untrustworthy–
like PA Kane’s Beemer, Fina & friends. imo Marshall would’ ve
gone where civil rights questions took her, & her successor bureauratic white males
have no track record of same.
I have often thot Staton the budget wonk lacks operational supervisory control of mcso,
and Moore is The Man.
Something else dawned on me after the person from Astoria posted
When a person becomes seen on TV and known. All these strange people seem to think they are some how involved and relate and can help solve this case
I wonder how many calls and letters have reached DY With all kinds of stories Some scarey. Some claiming to know or witness all sort of stuff
Happens to other people in the public Some of these kind of helpers are plain dangerous.
This could keep a person upset and confused and account for the drama mis-info Off the wall claims
I don’t believe she just lies. Kaine may have pulled back for the same reason.
I do agree Rose. To much personal info got out that should have been with held
In fact my sister has been telling me that from the start That looking for Kyron should have been all they talked about. Not old hurts long past. Letting in the public to all kinds of info to use as judgement against them
No matter who those parents are or have done no one deserves their child taken like this. To suffer like this over 5yrs
And I include all of them parents and step parents in this opinion
But it is easy to understand why people tell to much.
So mcso has at least 2 video vignettes of SZ that am.
Mcso has not shown the video to SZ witnesses in Mathews’ room
who saw kyron exit the school bldg with him for id corroboration.
—-
That exit, & those ids, are key, and imo timelines are irrelevant.
So is DY & others’ belief in LE- provided
info because same has not impacted her
thinking or behavior to date.
—-
If it was a K Rasmuson, he’d evolved & left last vic in desolated area (desert).
So kyron would be dumped between Portland & Fed Way or Eugene or something.
It could be LE knows who SZ is and had to wait for his timely arrest & trial on
more serious or proveable crimes (ie proveable murders with dna), letting other PDs roll him up first.
—-
Imo the most culpable officer of the court in addition to frink was Rackner.
One of the first people to start talking about the DUI and so on was that Jayme who ever. On TV
And she was suppose to be a friend
This shooting in CA today has me kind of distracted Another mass killing
I hope I make some sense
fwiw
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Cobbs-Creek-Abduction-Lawsuit-252473311.html
Since both S Cruz & Desiree claimed credit for that OR child abduction law in 2010, I wonder why they didn’t just push the State’s adoption of this 2006 Uniform Act?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Child_Abduction_Prevention_Act
that filing:
http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/14d0930p.pdf
—-
great case in Fed Ct in CA.
http://conference.publiccharters.org/uploads/NCSC2014/HANDOUTS/KEY_15793653/LawSuits.pdf
p 2, 1st paragr under Source.
substantive due process right violation
(Obviously in OR, there’s no point in being in a State rather than Federal Court. no more Kantor.)
—-
http://www.laborlawyers.com/mobile/showarticle.aspx?Show=20764&Type=1119&cat=3388
“Causes of action can include negligence, premises liability, infliction of emotional distress, violation of state and local laws requiring safe schools, and certain safety procedures. Public schools and their employees, where not pre-empted for official immunity reasons, can also face allegations they violated U.S. Constitutional rights.”
—
a PD that disseminates pics & a Supt who communicates specific actions of school staff
http://wbay.com/2015/08/28/parents-take-action-after-attempted-abduction-in-de-pere/
—–
It seems in 2002, long ago, a model school safety plan was published by a Portland OR Federal DOE Northwest Regional Education Lab jointly with the DOJ!!!! Did any OR County implement the best practices in this Plan?
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/book2.pdf
So why then did Barker on the House Public Safety Committee pass the HB for that School Safety Task Force he & his daughter are on when the profesionally disparate TF members did not tap or use school safety plan experts already publishing in Portland? This NWREL publication included the legal aspects, & I don’t see any legal experts on school safety sitting on or consulted by the TF. No wonder the TF output was to hire a digital vendor.
snipped from post above –
“… but quite possibly have violated the laws of the Oregon Supreme Court wrt to Grand Jury statute.
I am told permission is forthcoming
B”
——————————
Well, I have read everything I could find – Oregon statute, Oregon Bar, legal opinions, etc. – and I still do not understand how they are allowed to keep results secret, particularly if it is a NO TRUE BILL. That information is not supposed to be confidential, and the notes etc., are supposed to be destroyed if the person is not to be charged based on the GJ decision. Either they are doing something wrong or nobody is asking anything, or at least reporting it. A second GJ should have been based only on new, additional information – but we all are pretty sure there wasn’t any.
wherein billy williams & tim moore rub shoulders, and maureen & charlene junket to Georgetown (DC) together.
https://multco.us/file/37006/download
I see no PPB participants.
In 2011, Reese was on Exec Comm.
maybe I just don’t recognize new
Chief’s name.
ot http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/02/police-id-suspect-in-san-bernardino-massacre-as-syed-farook.html
@Tina You sound so much like
Local I have to smile I am local east side For others this crime was west side Portland
Fantasyland Agree
There is no evil stepmom in our family so we are safe The kids can play hide and seek way after dark in the bushes again All is well here
maybe when D Gansler finishes his contract as Special Deputy AG in PA rooting out public corruption, he could bring his road show to Rosenblum’s shop and look at all mcso-da communications in the kyron case. or look at the kitzhaber case. or whatever. These out-of-state independent deputy AGs may be a lucrative new public service practice field in more than one State.
Maybe if someone had a successful federal civil rights complaint, as part of the remedy the Court could appoint an out of state special DepAG prosecutor to examine all Mult County gov’t criminal justice system (da, le, judges) email records for a corruption review & prosecution. PA mandate is broad – State & Federal ciminal violations & Bar ethics violations.
My thoughts and prayers go out to all the victims and their families in San Bernardino today.
Anyone who thinks terrorists are not living among us, needs to think again.
@erose says:
December 1, 2015 at 2:00 pm
Amen.
@Malty says:
December 1, 2015 at 12:43 pm
Good effort, Malty. Perhaps DY & KH should do the same.
Malty says:
December 2, 2015 at 3:25 am
Blink says:
(snipped)
but quite possibly have violated the laws of the Oregon Supreme Court wrt to Grand Jury statute.
I am told permission is forthcoming.
***************
They violated a GJ statute? Guessing…..this one?
132.430 Finding against indictment; indorsement “not a true bill.” (1) When a person has been held to answer a criminal charge and the indictment in relation thereto is not found “a true bill,” it must be indorsed “not a true bill,” which indorsement must be signed by the foreman and filed with the clerk of the court, in whose office it shall remain a public record. In the case of an indictment not found “a true bill” against a person not so held, the same, together with the minutes of the evidence in relation thereto, must be destroyed by the grand jury.
(2) When an indictment indorsed “not a true bill” has been filed with the clerk of the court, the effect thereof is to dismiss the charge; and the same cannot be again submitted to or inquired of by the grand jury unless the court so orders. [Amended by 1973 c.836 §54]
https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/lawsstatutes/2013ors132.html
TY mbs. After reading you, I looked at OT Statute
https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/lawsstatutes/2013ors132.html
132.430(c) doesn’t call for new info to have a 2nd grand jury.
Unless there is legislative hx or case law filling in detail, it literally says no
repeat, unless “a Court so orders.”
And we have seen Mult Cty judges read what they want to do into statutes & Constitutional law.
Who were GJ judges 1 and 2 Blink?
Not going there Rose- but a no true bill “verdict” dictates outcome.
B
@Blink, Glad you believe, it’s contagious thing.
@Tiny, I appreciate your input, it gives so much perspective.
@TRuth, If only I had spelled Vogue correctly.
@MBS, Great reseach if it is was only yo find there was nothing to find. I can’t wait for forthcoming permission and I am sure everyone here feels the same.
“Fantasylandia”
I am told permission is forthcoming
***********************************
Blink, does that mean someone has filed something in the courts that will make it public knowledge and therefore fair game for conversation?
(Try not to be impressed with my grasp of legal jargon
lol
legal stuff wrt source vetting, etc.
B