Kyron Horman Missing and Endangered: Grand Jury Meets, Indictment Imminent
Portland, OR- In the case of missing 7-year-old Portland child Kyron Horman, developments today continue to unfold at lightening speed.
During a poorly-kept secret convening of a special grand jury that is in session today, sources inside the investigation believe it’s triers of fact will return an indictment against Terri Horman and possibly one other individual.
It is however, unclear as to whether or not the grand jury is hearing evidence in the alleged murder for hire plot MCSO informed Kaine Horman his wife had master-minded, OR evidence surrounding the disappearance of Kaine and Desiree Young’s son Kyron.
KOIN caught Terri Horman’s friend DeDe Spicher, who was subpoenaed to appear in the proceedings this morning, on video with her attorney, entering the courthouse. Spicher was the subject of a public plea asking her to cooperate with investigators by Kaine Horman and Desiree Young last week. A neighbor of Spicher’s has confirmed the FBI has been seen removing boxes and unknown bagged material from her residence.
According to several sources, DeDe Spicher, Terri’s roommate post Kaine’s restraining order, was working in a garden near the Horman home the day of Kyron’s disappearance when she received a call at approximately 11:15 am. She left abruptly, returning at approximately 1:00 pm. DeDe was unreachable on her cell phone during that time and the property owner became concerned. Spicher is a long time friend and workout companion of Horman’s.
Earlier today, Laura Rackner, Kaine Horman’s Family Law attorney filed a motion to find out where the funds are coming from to foot the bill for Terri Horman’s high profile criminal defense attorney, Stephen Houze.
In Horman’s motion, he is seeking the disclosure of the payments made to Houze, and whether or not it came from marital funds. If it has, Kaine Horman wants half the cash to pay his own legal bills. Kaine Horman alleges that Terri Horman disclosed to a third party that she paid a whopping $350,000 retainer to Houze, however, provided no proof of same in the papers filed today.
In what appears to be a media timing coup, tonight’s episode of Dateline NBC will feature Kaine Horman, Desiree and Tony Young, with interviews and coverage of Kyron’s disappearance.
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office Public Information Officer, Mary Lindstrand, has announced a press conference tomorrow at the MCSO Training Facility, beginning at 2:00 pm PST.
blinkoncrime editor Madeline Tanner contributed to this report
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Harry Oakes made two other comments – that answer some questions for me:
HO said: It is reported that Terri the step mother is involved in the “swinging lifestyle” where consenting adults have sexual relations with a variety of people in an honest and open manner.
But, I found this statement almost paralyzing:
“To my knowledge, not one single adult, teacher, or anyone else who knows Kyron saw him at school that day. The photo of Kyron supposedly taken the June 4that the science fair, by Terri doesn’t prove he was there on June 4th.
In my experience, this smells like a set up to a disappearance.
Harry has been talking to a lot of people. He is well known around Oregon. I don’t know who he spoke to or how he verified any of this. But, I do believe he wouldn’t have put his reputation and self out there by making false statements.
B, have you heard any of this?
dubhe suggested:
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=127939120&blogId=538423807 (Harry Oakes)
I read it and copied this:
“A parent whose child attended Skyline Elementary school stated that she saw Terri physically and verbally abusing Kyron repeatedly throughout the school year. Terri was seen striking Kyron, grabbing him, and call him names in front of the parents, teachers, and other kids.
“Kyron repeatedly told anyone who would listen that his “Step mother is dead”.
Terri would then counter with” He’s talking about his real mother not me”.
It has been reported by parents who were at the Horman residence the day Kyron disappeared to lend their support to the Horman family that Terri removed all of Kyron’s personal belongings from his room and packed them up, and moved her two-year-old daughter’s stuff into Kyron’s room.
I have not been able to confirm this statement.”
There are 3 parts to this quote I’d like to address.
1 – A parent says she saw Terri abusing Kyron repeatedly in front of parents, teachers, and other kids throughout the year. If that happened and no one reported it, shame on them, and perhaps legal action because teachers are mandatory reporters.
2 – “Kyron repeatedly told anyone who would listen . . . ” If he did speak like this “repeatedly”, it is another red flag that should have been reported, and it seems likely he would have said something more to someone he trusted at the school if they interviewed him properly. However, I’m not sure this behavior fits his personality as described to us.
3 – “. . . that Terri removed all of Kyron’s personal belongings from his room and packed them up . . . ” I cannot believe Desiree, Tony, and Kaine would have sat there and allowed that to happen – I can see them tossing her out of the house! Even with LE there, I think they would have been appalled and angry and would have put a stop to it. I suppose by some stretch of the imagination, they might have been asked by LE to let her do anything she wanted just to see what she would do – but I still can’t imagine going that far. We know Kaine has his room set up now, at least, so he can store the gifts people leave at the Wall. (I think Terri wrote on her FB page that Kiara would sit on Kyron’s bed and read his books – nothing about making it her room.)
I much prefer a site with a higher standard for accuracy and not so self-promoting. Thank you, Blink. However, I read it because of the comment and I was curious. Since Harry was actually here, I think it also gives insight into what rumors may be going around (no matter who started them). Maybe they are true (I hope not, because if so, some people really let him down by not helping him) or maybe it’s a form of defense against the fears parents have by putting out “facts” that support LE’s “no danger to others” statement.
If these comments by parents are true, I hope they also spoke to the GJ.
Re: Harry Oakes. There is a reason Le does not use him for anything .. ever. LE personnel are highly skilled and trained professionals who do their investigative work with a light foot print. Harry Oakes is not. He is aggrandizing his self-importance by appearing to know things that he has learned, independent of LE. He is only fueling the fires of the mob mentality to expand his following. People, and it only takes a few, will read his crap and re-post it elsewhere and dozens of other people will hit on his site to read for themselves. Harry Oakes is not credible.
shelbar – The GJ seems to be recessed at this point. They can be called back anytime and their duty can continue beyond the standard length of jury duty if necessary. A True Bill simply says the GJ believes a jury would convict the suspect if no other evidence appeared to contradict what has been presented to them. I believe they could arrest her on some lesser charge (such as littering by tossing a phone into the brush or whatever), but the GJ helps to sort through the evidence and even if you could, you probably wouldn’t want to arrest her until they finish. I personally believe they are waiting for more evidence or witnesses to show up and want to get through every tip.
I will admit I have given my reading a rest from time to time, to keep from feeling so depressed over Kyron’s disappearance. But I believe I have read most of it. I have seen what little evidence everyone else has seen. One thing I would like to know is was it established that Kyron’s glasses were left in the mailbox or has it just been repeated so often it has been taken as fact. And has it been established they were in fact his glasses they were showing on the news? I have always felt that they were but I just think they may have been found near the school and that is why LE Keeps looking around the school for more evidence.
The one thing I keep going back to is just that Terri raised that little boy as her own from early on. But I never saw her cry. Maybe she did. And as people have mentioned, everyone responds differently. That is so. But I just can’t understand how she could not cry. I’d be crying whether I was by myself or in the public eye. I think most folks would. Some of us still do.
God Bless Kyron, his two brothers and sister. God Bless his family.
Kaylee-
The harry O’s hit on a body story was on the Saulvie Island. I know it is hard to keep track of all th rumors we hear. We really KNOW NOTHiNG for sure.
Essay Kaye – sorry, I should have included you in my Harry’s blog comments too. Thank you.
@Essay Kaye
I hope and pray so much that what you quoted is not true and just a rumor. It makes my heart break and I can’t help but sob at the thought!
I cannot believe that any adult would watch this happen and not do something about it. I would hope that no one would allow me to get away with that kind of behaviour toward a child.
I follow this case from Boston because I see Kyron in my little son and weep for him. My heart breaks at all the news lately on what people are doing to children in this country.
to riverpearl re PPS – I think every district has a culture of its own just like every building, but all probably fear the costs of lawsuits these days. I remember when former Portland Mayor Vera Katz was so frustrated with PPS, she threatened to take over as superintendent – quite a contrast to the current Mayor. Don’t know if she could have, but I understand the feeling.
I believe when the question first came up about the automated call system, Skyline said they did not have a truancy problem, which I think is probably true.
My neighborhood association recently held a picnic in a small park. It was a lovely picnic. At one point, a child about 2 years old and not very verbal was wandering toward the street and only a few feet away from it softly saying “Grandma, Grandma”. I looked around and no one was looking at him so I cornered him and asked one of the firemen attending the event to help me find his Grandma. We probably searched for 6 or 7 minutes around the park before someone said she was his grandma and that his aunt was supposed to be watching him (never saw the aunt). I’m sure they love him, but there was no concern shown for what might have happened to him. There are also trails nearby open to the public and he was so short that just a few steps would have put him out of sight.
The park story is an example of what I mean by changing how you think. Cameras are great, but unless they are constantly monitored security cameras, they are useful only after a problem occurs.
I know some great teachers, believe me. I’m sympathetic about budget cuts, but when I taught 36 kids in a classroom in Kentucky without even a bathroom break all day (no support classes at all), I still wanted to and was required to keep track of my students and everything they did all day long. (Easy or healthy, of course not.) This isn’t about Kyron’s teacher, it’s about having everyone remember that the best resources we have to protect our children should be the human ones and we need to give them the training, partnership, and support they need.
I’m not sure I said this very well, but I hope it’s clear.
Hearing possibility of Kyron being taken away, “stashed” somewhere, taken abroad absolutely does not make any sense to me – what is the logic behind keeping this child, caring for him, risking own integrity (high profile case) and so on?
and unless, there was a ransom demand that we as public do not have idea, this is not plausable…
Being grabbed by a predator and exploited also has relatively low chances given LE’s reassurance though it could have been issued to prevent panic and parental anger.
while Kyron’s parents should NEVER give up on finding child alive, hate to say this again, but it seems that Kyron is gone and was gone within a short time since disapperance (compare his case to other abduction cases involving children – for most victims this is true and in addition, of time being of essence in all the crimes).
Having all that said, this is why in my opinion, LE had searched areas multiple times as to making an effort to find a body being strongly recognizant that it has to or most likely to be in the vicinity.
And, as for Skyline school – gosh, what a shame that no cameras were installed during the summer – if school admin. have asked parents to help with the bill, most parents WOULD donate $$ and time for cameras to be onsite. What is the reason of not having them (cameras)especially after this took place….you would think that Skyline school would be installing them ASAP.
sorry about my rambling, it is due to frustration that school year will resume shortly but public and Skyline students (perhaps, not LE) know nothing about child who vanished.
When sheriff Stanton promised this is not going to become a cold case, my first impression was that LE had alluded this case being difficult and likely to become cold one (couple that with Mr.Stanton crying – and any reasonable person would suspect that something is seriously is up).
hope for fast resolution on this case.
Kyron God bless you!
Yeah 3000!
beejay,
Your comment and lead to this article and webpage broke my heart !
http://www.oregonoath.org/
WTH ????
Newsatfive says:
August 22, 2010 at 8:40 pm
Where is FOX News getting information about what was said to the grand jury? The prosecutor is ethically barred from talking, and DeDe is not going to trash herself. Grand jurors are not allowed to talk, and 99.99% of the time they don’t. This sounds like a Jason Wishert leak.
——————-
Newsatfive – I couldn’t find anything specific to Oregon tonight but I suspect they follow the federal lead which I pasted below. To sort of answer your question – either the witnesses themselves are talking about what they said, or somebody is making it all up.
If I find anything to the contrary, I’ll add it later. Perhaps you have an easier way to check it out – I know Oregon requires an oath to be taken, but not whether it’s a oath of secrecy or just an oath to be truthful.
http://www.abanet.org/media/faqjury.html (American Bar Assoc.)
“In the federal courts, the witness is not sworn to secrecy, and may disclose whatever he or she wishes to whomever he or she wishes. The witness exemption was adopted in part because it was thought that requiring witness secrecy was unrealistic and unenforceable, and in part to allow the witness to rebut rumors concerning his or her testimony. There is a basic revulsion in the United States about secret testimony.”
I would like to note that at many of the press conferences, LE told the media they would speak with them off camera afterward. I attended meetings for a city task force about gangs for a few years. A reporter from each local paper was allowed to attend and we were responsible to let the reporter know when our comments were off the record. The reporters always honored that. If LE is telling the media anything they don’t want reported (no idea why), they appear to be honoring that, but if “a source who has also talked to investigators” does give them information, then perhaps it would help them decide who’s credible and who isn’t.
I agree and wonder too – all the leaks going on around here would have sunk a ship weeks ago.
NancyS says:
August 22, 2010 at 11:36 pm
“Kaylee-
The harry O’s hit on a body story was on the Saulvie Island. I know it is hard to keep track of all th rumors we hear. We really KNOW NOTHiNG for sure.”
This is the part of Harry’s Myspace post I was talking about:
“The search dogs from I.K.9.S.A.R.S. repeatedly indicate a “Death alert” anytime they get near the perimeter of the Horman residence.
When a person is killed, their body fluids seep into the ground. This will hold the death scent like a sponge for quite a long time. So is Kyron buried on or near the Horman property? Or is it just his “Death scent” that leaked out of his body giving off the death alerts? If it’s not his death scent then who died up around the Horman property recently? Has his body been buried on someone else’s property?”
I had read about the hits near Sauvie, but not the above info. Of course, with so much garbage in the blog post, I have a hard time believing any of it. From another website, I gathered that locals were out searching with him and they may have passed on some whoppers they had heard. But for him to publish them along with pseudo professionalism, please.
I think everyone is getting carried away in their speculations here and not concentrating on the facts and logic.
puzzled says:
August 22, 2010 at 12:32 pm
——
ooops … careful starshadow, or you’ll be accused of being me.
——
It’s ok. It would be more of the same, as I’ve already been accused of being TH over on the KATU forums. As I’ve said there, repeatedly… if they can’t figure out who I’m NOT from my hundreds of comments there, then it’s not surprising I have absolutely no faith in their “detective” skills whatsoever.
If LE had Kyron’s glasses they would not need to be showing them to the public. Why would they? They were showing the exact style of Kyron’s glasses in case anyone found any glasses like his lying around. That they found his glasses is a total rumor IMO. Why would they show them, really? They also showed shoes, pants and shirt that matched what he was wearing. Are we to think they found those too?
puzzled says:
August 22, 2010 at 12:32 pm
——
ooops … careful starshadow, or you’ll be accused of being me.
——
It’s ok. It would be more of the same, as I’ve already been accused of being TH over on the KATU forums. As I’ve said there, repeatedly… if they can’t figure out who I’m NOT from my hundreds of comments there, then it’s not surprising I have absolutely no faith in their “detective” skills whatsoever.
——————————————————
Re: the Harry Oakes stuff.
Sheeesh. I seem to remember one of the interviews where KH says that they haven’t done anything with Kyron’s room other then add a few of the things from the wall to it. As for the rest of it, good grief. I think even my 8-yr-old could figure out he’s full of baloney. Oakes’ 15 minutes are over, he needs to go away.
Haven’t posted here in ages, but still read every day. I can finally give some input, by virtue of living in South Africa myself. It’s about this “Liewe Lulu” person you are talking about. She is definitely from South Africa, since the word “Liewe” means “Dear” in Afrikaans, and there is a well-known local song here with the title “Liewe Lulu”. The most famous line from the song is: “O Liewe Lulu, wil jy vanaand by my kom doedoe?” (Translation: “Dear Lulu, do you want to come and sleep with me tonight?”). Terrible song, terrible lyrics! I also went to the Facebook page and her friends are from South Africa too. Anyway, I have no idea whether she is still living here, but if she is South African, I have no idea how she would have any inside information on this case when she lives halfway around the world and there has never been any indication that anyone involved knows any South Africans. For all I know she might be living in the USA now or know someone involved, but she is originally from South Africa, I am sure.
I has a dream I found kyron. he was between a 4 and an 8 on a map north west of sauvie island. he was not alive.
I’m not a psychic. just a sad dream.
Holding lots of posts regarding Jason W, and y’all know why.
On location today through this afternoon, fyi
B
@snapoutofit re: speculations
really. everyone keeps saying simplify… well, truly simplified is that a pedophile grabbed him, and due to the absence of any useful information, a public lynch mob has formed, led by a couple people with plenty of motive.
Which, of course, doesn’t help find Kyron.
Regarding my August 22nd post on Jason Whisert/art:
Didn’t he deny that rumor on SM? Is that his Dad or not?
B
**********
Thank you, Blink. I should of put that in my post.
The Vancouver business address, child porn and ICE items really caught my attention. My thinking was: Okay, should we be looking at this guy? If it IS his Dad, would this and that be possible? If it IS NOT his Dad, what does that leave us with?
IMHO he is probably not involved in Kyron’s disappearance. If he were it seems the last thing he’d want to do is call attention to himself. And he has, big time.
It’s lonely out on this limb by myself. But WHAT IF:
TH and DeDe (whom Blink indicated knows Rudy–unless that was a Blink joke) really were afraid of Rudy and his pals?
Agreed that the time of purchase of the bat phones will give insight to that; but it’s yet another fact we don’t yet know.
But, both gals and others in their circle of friends who don’t want to either be hunted down–for innocent reasons (bear with me…)might have bought those cell phones because they didn’t trust anybody, on either side of the law, as soon as they knew Ky was missing. Assumes TH had a very good idea who the BAD guys were who grabbed Ky. Esp. since B. showed us the unusual suspicious activity in the Horman neighborhood in the months previous to June 4 (if you missed it, see B’s article Rudy knew Kyron, and read the ENTIRE article for the police activity)
Did you read my link yesterday about the guy who took and forced the 13 yr old girl into prostitution? And threatened to kill her family? And said he had gang connections? Scarey stuff.
I still think it possible that TH has been scared s**tless. It doesn’t require you to view her as a victim, and somehow let her “win”. It could be true that she has been afraid for her life and Kiara’s and James’ and maybe DeeDee’s, etc, whether we like it or not.
Oh, remember the recent newspaper article about complex Terri? And that James said his mother was hysterical at the time Ky went missing? Could be hysterical for any of a number of complex reasons.
Back to work now. Hope B. returns with some facts for us.
How long before we hear from you in a piece do you think? I feel you might be restricted? Have a good one
By Wed.
B
A lot of men are just not very psychologically minded, or interpersonally savvy. Esp. the more technical and analytical ones. It’s not a personal failing; I’m convinced they’re hardwired that way. (You can’t get everything in one package, ya know?) So it makes for wives who’re lonely in their marriages.
Here’s one story of what goes on behind closed doors:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-mom-just-locked-her-door,17942/
Also, as I recently watched a Nat-Geo (I think) show on Mexican prisons, 2 prisoners were talking about their buddy, who suicided in prison due to pressure from gangs. One of the speakers was American, jailed for double homicide. Otherwise, seemed really nice! When they spoke about their dead friend, both genuflected (crossed themselves).
Even among killers, there is religion. My point? I think this is similar to how this case will end up, if we don’t already have some suspicious dudes sitting in lockup genuflecting. If you go for satire, which is only the truth cloaked with humor, here’s your link:
snapoutofit says:
August 23, 2010 at 1:13 am
I think everyone is getting carried away in their speculations here and not concentrating on the facts and logic.
Understandable that we get carried away, but good to remember. Thank you.
My logic tells me there is a 99.9% probability that Harry will never know anything that LE doesn’t already know or that his “sources” would not report in the appropriate way rather than only to him if they are being truthful. Still, on the off chance that there is “a grain of truth in every lie”, including those told to him, I suppose it doesn’t hurt to read what he says every now and then.
A lot of men (like KH) are just not very psychologically minded, or interpersonally savvy. Esp. the more technical and analytical ones. It’s not a personal failing; I’m convinced they’re hardwired that way. (You can’t get everything in one package, ya know?) So it makes for wives who’re lonely in their marriages.
Here’s one story of what goes on behind closed doors, in which dad’s solution is so out of touch, it’s a wonder mom’s not OUT the door:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-mom-just-locked-her-door,17942/
Also, as I recently watched a Nat-Geo (I think) show on Mexican prisons, 2 prisoners were talking about their buddy, who suicided in prison due to pressure from gangs. One of the speakers was American, jailed for double homicide. Otherwise, seemed really nice! When they spoke about their dead friend, both crossed themselves.
Even among killers, there is religion. My point? I think this is how this case will end up, if we don’t already have some suspicious dudes sitting in lockup crossing themselves. If you go for satire, which is only the truth cloaked with humor, here’s your link:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/if-i-hadnt-found-jesus-id-feel-pretty-shitty-about,17883/
@mockingbird sings
I applaud you both for being observant of children/people around you and for taking responsibility to see that the little one wandering around was reconnected with family. Many of us now live in settings in which we don’t know every family in town, or every kid in the neighborhood, which makes it even more important that we watch out for kids, elders and those around us. Our communities would be safer if we reached out to our neighbors and got to know the kids and other vulnerable people in our neighborhoods; if we made it a point to check that older neighbors living alone open their curtains in the morning or turn on their lights in the evening; if we welcomed new people to our neighborhoods with a plate of cookies and introduced ourselves; if we learn the names of neighborhood kids and greet them when they are out playing. The police department in the small city where I live encourages block parties or potlucks where neighbors can get to know each other and discuss how to make the neighborhood safer. They make an officer available to stop by a block party to talk for a few minutes about neighborhood safety and help people make positive connections with the police department.
WHAT IF:
LE is still trying to gather evidence to convict one or two male landscapers for the actual grab of Ky, and part of that evidence necessarily involves exonerating evidence, consisting of pinning down the alibis of TH and her girl pal(s) on the morning of June 4?
Ever think of it that way? (First, clear your mind of how you feel about the girls. And all the hearsay and family commentary about the girls.)
We have to remember, if the sanchez group grabbed Ky, they might not just ‘fess up to that. Even if they did, LE needs corroborating evidence. So, the current LE investigation need not simply be focused on the girls for the sake of incriminating evidence on the girls.
#15: twinkletoes says:
August 23, 2010 at 7:42 am
I has a dream I found kyron. he was between a 4 and an 8 on a map north west of Sauvie Island. he was not alive.
I’m not a psychic. just a sad dream.
_________
What do you mean by “between a 4 and an 8 on a map north of…”
Could you tell me more about this vision?
I agree that the focus needs to be on finding Kyron, which has been the stated goal of law enforcement, Kyron’s parents, and Kyron’s stepfather.
With that in mind, there are certain people who silence, stonewalling, and/or outright lies have brought them to the public’s attention.
IMHO, if someone is stupid enough to put themselves in front of a TV camera and lie, that person should be smart enough to know there’s a good chance s/he will get get called out for his/her deception. Same thing goes for people who fabricate and embellish when talking to the print media.
Does the fact that someone lied mean that s/he is involved in Kyron’s disappearance? No, but depending on the lie, it may merit further investigation or perhaps honing in on that person as a suspect.
I am shocked at the number of people in Kyron’s life who are downright creepy. What’s strange is that Kyron is by all accounts a sweet, loving child, yet the person who provided his day to day care (Terri) is someone who does not evoke such sentiment, and worse, she may be the person responsible for Kyron’s disappearance.
Either Kyron is a miracle who in many ways thrived despite the weirdos in his life, or the picture we are getting about those in his life is not entirely accurate.
My understanding of child abuse is that there are signs of abuse and neglect that are almost always present when you have a child who has been abused long-term. If Kyron was abused and/or exposed to inappropriate behaviors (which is a form of abuse or neglect), there should have been warning signs that something was amiss. In short, either LE is barking up the wrong tree as far as Terri goes, or LE needs to expand its focus and/or look at other alternative theories as to what happened to Kyron.
There are several people here who have psychology and/or CPS backgrounds, and I’d love to hear your take on this, too.
As to Harry Oakes, all I have to say is this: If Kaine Horman had any reason to believe that Kyron was on his property, don’t you think he would have done everything in his power to find Kyron? If Harry Oakes had any credibility, don’t you think his “sources” would have told Kaine to allow the dogs to conduct a search?
Blink-
what state are you in? can you say?
What has bothered me from the beginning is why the need for the public to take TH apart and shred her life, and now DDS as well.
**Let me be clear** … I firmly believe that the parents deserve their privacy to grieve and process the loss of their child. Their lives DO NOT need to be exposed in a public arena.
That said, TH did not live in a cave with this child. Kryon interacted on a daily basis with father, older brother, younger sibling, teacher, schoolmates and often enough with mother, stepfather, other older brother, grandparents. If there were signs of trouble between TH and Kryon, why didn’t someone sound an alarm before June 4th?
And what about the other characters? Where has RS disappeared to and why hasn’t there been an expose of him? Or MC, did he just wander in front of the screen while the movie was playing? And what about Sanchez in fed prison? how, IF, was he involved?
What if the others, whoever they are, had been showcased as prominently as TH and now DDS, would the public think differently about this case? Just asking ….
#28 puzzled says:
August 23, 2010 at 1:40 pm What has bothered me from the beginning is why the need for the public to take TH apart and shred her life, and now DDS as well.
___________
Curiosity, intrigue, selling stories, internet ability, hype, sensationalism, study of human behavior, popularity of ‘true crime’ detective stories out there, same reason why people look at car accidents as they drive by and same reason why I’m here and same reason why you’re here – we find it fascinating but…I’m not doing the “shredding” though.
re: 21 MockingbirdSings says:
August 23, 2010 at 12:17 pm re: If Harry Oakes had any credibility, don’t you think his “sources” would have told Kaine to allow the dogs to conduct a search?
_______________
I had personally spoke to Harry earlier in June about several psychics as well as myself who had strong “hits” about where Kyron might be. He said he was also responding to other psychics including a friend. He actually searched the area I told him about and called me back. He didn’t have to call me back. I am just a nobody. (well I’m a somebody to some people…lol). The information he gave me was very helpful and I reported that to the group of people who had these concerns about Kyron. But Harry hasn’t found him and it makes me really wonder now (in hindsight) if Kyron had been moved around alot since those earlier visions. I don’t think Harry wiill find him at this point. And I think Harry’s 15 minutes of fame are over.
@Snap:
Not trying to berate you in any way, and I hope this comment doesn’t come off that way…
I’m sincerely having trouble understanding what your mindset is in regards to how to approach analyzing ‘information’ vs. ‘intuition’ in this case.
I think maybe I’m misunderstanding one (or both) of your most recent posts, because they seem contradictory (as *I’m* understanding them, LOL, which I suspect is the problem
…)
snapoutofit says:
August 23, 2010 at 1:13 am
” I think everyone is getting carried away in their speculations here and not concentrating on the facts and logic.”
*** and then, this comment: ***
snapoutofit says:
August 23, 2010 at 12:55 pm
#15: twinkletoes says:
August 23, 2010 at 7:42 am
I has a dream I found kyron. he was between a 4 and an 8 on a map north west of Sauvie Island. he was not alive.
I’m not a psychic. just a sad dream.
_________
” What do you mean by “between a 4 and an 8 on a map north of…”
Could you tell me more about this vision? ”
*****
Again, ‘snap’, no disrespect is intended..
I’m just trying to understand your position and rectify one comment with the next.
Glad you decided to return to this site, BTW!
I was disappointed to see that you are no longer participating in the Intense Debate forum…
I thought you were one of the commenters that tended to add diversity of perspective to the comment stream!
snapoutofit says:
August 23, 2010 at 12:55 pm
#15: twinkletoes says:
August 23, 2010 at 7:42 am
I has a dream I found kyron. he was between a 4 and an 8 on a map north west of Sauvie Island. he was not alive.
I’m not a psychic. just a sad dream.
_________
What do you mean by “between a 4 and an 8 on a map north of…”
Could you tell me more about this vision?
OOOPS, sorry…
Didn’t mean to paste your second comment twice, ‘snap’!
I think Blink is on to something. I sure hope so because the media seems to be regurgitating old news. Gag order perhaps? Something just feels off the past few days.
@ beejay says: August 23, 2010 at 12:17 pm
http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-mom-just-locked-her-door,17942/
http://www.theonion.com/articles/if-i-hadnt-found-jesus-id-feel-pretty-shitty-about,17883/
The onion is 100% parody. It’s not real.
(Just don’t tell my mom, who thinks The Onion — along with every single forwarded email she has ever received — is gospel.)
You may return to your regularly scheduled programming….
I have to apolly news@5- I totally missed that beejay did not realize that.
B
MockingbirdSings @ 12:38am—
Maybe I wasn’t as clear as I thought I wrote…hmmmm.(thanks)
So, to clarify, I agree w/ exactly what you wrote, that was my point as well.
Regardless of PPS-
Adults (ie. Teachers, Other Staff, Parents etc)
NEED to LOOK OUT/ PAY ATTENTION to children in our schools and community.
I also believe cameras give a false sense of security.
Even if manned 24/7, they can be avoided if a person wants.
Kyron’s disappearance has shown many people failed him.
Is society (@ large) NOW ready to support change AND change?
As always, bring Kyron home.
PPS website for Skyline School describes its staff as:
•9 classroom teachers, educational resource teacher, PE specialist, music specialist, foreign language instruction provided by a Spanish enthusiast and library assistant.
To puzzled and others – I will be upfront about being biased in this respect (since I am a counselor), but I also believe wholeheartedly in what I say. There is no counselor listed in the staff description, and I believe PPS has reluctantly reduced the number of elementary school counselors as budget cuts came in recent years (although it goes up and down). Skyline just became a K-8 school so even though it is small, it also has kids at widely varying stages of development. I’m not sure where the plan stands for a Skyline counselor now that 8th grade is included, but I believe a counselor is essential at every school at every level.
An elementary school counselor has many opportunities to help kids. When my daughters were in 2nd and 3rd grades, they attended a small support group for children whose parents were divorced. There were also groups (maybe 4 or 5 kids) during the year for children in stepfamilies, children who needed help making friends, children who were grieving the loss of family member (including pet), etc. The counselor visited classrooms and helped on the playground and was known as a trusted person you could always talk to about anything. Counselors provided resources to parents as well, and also helped staff with identifying and providing for children’s needs. (I have bought everything from bookbags to chapstick to lunches out of my own pocket and so has every counselor I know.)
I don’t know how long it has been since Skyline had a counselor or whether they ever did. The FTE (think money) probably would have come from the school’s own staff budget and I don’t believe the state mandates counselors at that level.
I have worked with some very knowledgeable and observant teachers and administrators, but rarely do they have the training or experience to spot subtle signs that counselors will pick up on. A counselor is also someone to whom a parent, staff member, or other child will speak “off the record” when they have concerns but don’t know what to do or don’t want to be directly involved. A teacher who is busy with a class full of children is not an easy person for a child to speak to about a problem even if they want to. In this case, the teacher was also providing behavioral information to Terri that was, most likely in Kyron’s view, resulting in more trouble for him at home – why would he want to confide in her?
There may have been signs or suspicions of problems in Kyron’s life, although I doubt they would have been as obvious as Harry quotes, but they were apparently missed or dismissed. I STRONGLY believe the counselor in a school is every bit as valuable as a security officer, and maybe more so.
As for families, it’s hard to sort out what’s happening sometimes and an adult can be very good at reframing anything that happens so others have doubts about a child’s version of what’s going on. Extended families that don’t communicate very well about anything deeper than scheduling or Christmas gifts, may take a long time to reach a point of realizing there is a serious problem and what exactly it is. Terri’s reported rants in her emails to Desiree may actually have taken some of the attention off Kyron and made people wonder what was the matter with her instead. I don’t fault them for not picking up on the problems before June – I also know they would have figured it out soon – maybe Terri knew that too.
PS to puzzled – I liked your last question. “What if the others, whoever they are, had been showcased as prominently as TH and now DDS, would the public think differently about this case?” I think the answer is yes. And the next obvious question is – why haven’t they?
31 RE VTLady79 comments: Thank you for your kind words re Intense Debate.
There are some facts of the case from the start that seem to have been forgotten about which is why the comment from Twinkletoes struck me as interesting this morning. She is a very precise and logical poster here and so her comment stood out to me. It reminded me that we need to go back to the basics of the case… and the investigation started from Skyline school AND searching Sauvie Island. My position still remains staying with the facts of the case and keeping to the basics. I don’t think adding DeDe to the mix changes the case anymore than adding Michael Cook to it…it only shows more about what the real Terri is like.
If the cell phones were purchased prior to Terri and Kaine meeting the bus, there is little shelter for her. If they were purchased afterward, it could be argued TH knew her cell phone would be hogged with calls and she needed a reliable way to get access to her closest friends so they could talk. Far fetched I agree. The interesting question then becomes happened to the phones. That is the stuff that makes a conspiracy case if there was malevolent intent in acquiring or disposing the disposables, not to mention potential federal charges of using the wires to facilitate a crime and state charges of tampering with physical evidence (or whatever they call it there).
Yes, definitely. Especially given that we KNOW Terri had her cell phone on, and pinging with her all afternoon.
B
Just a reminder y’all:
An Aug. 25 hearing is scheduled in Multnomah County Circuit Court on the pending divorce and restraining order matters.
(ie. How much did Terri pay for her attorney?)
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/hearing_set_on_kaine_hormans_m.html
Newsatfive – “Either Kyron is a miracle who in many ways thrived despite the weirdos in his life, or the picture we are getting about those in his life is not entirely accurate.”
I like your statement. I tend toward believing the miracle – and that James should have some big brother credit as well. I believe things got worse for Kyron after James left, but not only because of Terri’s attitude about Kaine. I think James either defended Kyron to the extent that he could, or distracted Terri while he was there, or both.
Yes, we’re speculating. This is the media, same as mass media. When there’s a news void, there’s a tendency to fill it with something.
There’s a news void. It would’ve been a great silence had the bio-parents not been providing some material. I’ve considered it filler.
Did you like my WWWCD? (What Would Walter Cronkite Do?) If Cronkite were covering this, he’d either be silent or would be out in the trenches (like he did in WWII). Standards for journalism are diff. today; thus, we’ve had some mass media coverage, however lacking in substance that’s relative to the investigation.
I suggested telling jokes. It seems no more disrespectful to Ky’s situation than gossiping about his blended family, or some ex-boyfriend of a girlfriend of his stepmom. Or whatever.
Just filling time till B. brings us something to chew on. MOO. Looking forward to that fresh grass!
Yes beejay, I liked your WWWCD. Being among the “older” crowd, I knew exactly what you meant. I’m not sure how the standards of journalism got on such a downhill slide, but I trusted what he said and I respected his ethics.
So which female journalist do you think will be the first to interview Terri on TV someday – even if from prison? I must admit I would like to actually hear her voice. Not sure what it would tell me, but it seems like a missing link to something.
beejay says:
August 23, 2010 at 11:03 am
It’s lonely out on this limb by myself. But WHAT IF:
———-
I don’t know how lonely it is on this limb – I know that I agree with a lot of your post and I can’t be the only one… I guess my biggest question at this point would be, why… What is the motive for LS involvement???
I really think (MOO) that TH DID start this whole process and that she is very much involved… But – I also think that she may have involved herself with some heavy duty serious people who took over ‘where she left off’ and I am thinking that the ‘where she left off’ point may not have gone according to the plan that SHE had agreed to… She may have been operating according to Plan A, not being aware that there was a Plan B.
But what could be LS motive? Child trafficking? Money/ransom? We know the last one didn’t happen…at least I THINK we know that didn’t happen. Although I think I am clear that there is still a LOT we don’t know.
And I think I read somewhere where people were saying well they just couldn’t remove him from the country like that? I don’t know that i would be so quick to agree with that and that is MOO. I think if some of these people are ‘good’ at this kind of thing – not like if you or I had planned something like this – that they know how to achieve what they want. I can’t decide if I think it got that complicated though – I keep wondering why ALL these different LE agencies are involved, though. To me, again MOO, it just suggests something ‘bigger’ and more involved…
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/As-Wall-of-Hope-seeks-new-home-grand-jury-meets/rQz-o1Wcwkifxc3D93tvdg.cspx
Oh, my. “You can’t tell the players without a program” suddenly takes on new meaning.