Kyron Horman Missing: Kaine And Terri Horman Face Off In Family Court
Portland, Or– Following one of the largest organized search weekends on Sauvie Island since Kyron Horman, 8,was abducted from Skyline School on June 4, his step-mother and father squared off in family court. Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, arrived with his attorney, Laura Rackner.
Kaine’s estranged wife Terri Horman, arrived with her criminal defense attorney; Stephen Houze and her family law attorney Peter Bunch.
Mr. Horman appeared in a crisp-white dress shirt and tie, and Ms. Moulton-Horman wore an eggplant hued suit with a long skirt.
Cameras were banned in the downtown Multnomah County courtroom; however, there were apparently several hidden “nests” as the tweets were flying real-time.
Peter Bunch, counsel to Terri Horman, is adamant his client is the subject of more than one criminal investigation:
“The state has the ability to obtain every single bit of information that is produced in this case and that is outside the bounds of what it could do were this proceeding not occurring,” Bunch said in court.
“It is fundamentally unfair for Kitty (Kiara) and for Miss Horman for me to be hamstrung in the divorce case for the information I have compared to what they have.” “The publicity that’s going on is not being driven by Ms. Horman, it’s being driven by Mr. Horman, when he tells national media there’s no doubt Ms. Horman is involved.” “If Mr. Horman is really interested in what‘s best for the child, then Mr. Horman wouldn’t object to any visitation by this child’s mother.” “We’ll concede, Mr. Horman can have the house, right now. Mrs. Horman is going to lose money…”
Terri Horman has not been declared a suspect in either Kyron Horman’s disappearance or the alleged murder for hire plot against Kaine Horman. She is however, seeking access to all of her 911 calls dating back to the DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS.
While this timeline coincides with accusations by Kaine Horman in his filings that Terri attempted to arrange to have him murdered, this is the first public revelation of that call. Bunch went on to say that Rackner and Kaine Horman, who are parties to case sensitive criminal investigation materials involving Terri, are at a supreme advantage to his client who should only be expected to plead her protections under the 5th amendment as a result.
After heated debate by those sides, we learned: Rudy Sanchez, the infamous landscaper/hitman for hire, has an alias, and has eluded service in the civil matter to date, although he appears to have cooperated. Bunch proclaims Sanchez is unlocatable as a result of MCSO unwillingness to share discovery of a witness in the civil case ( blink holds hands over eyes).
Michael Cook, a/k/a sexter king, waited all afternoon via subpoena by Rackner, but was only interviewed by the press. He states he cut ties with both Terri and Kaine days before he was outed for invasive scapular intrusions. No word on that healing process.
Terri Horman had her own personal black Friday this year.
She called 911 THE DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS. Regular contributors and readers of blinkoncrime.com doubt she had sale flyer questions.
Judge Keith Meisenheimer, was sensitive to Kaine and Kyron’s ‘round the clock nightmare, but feels some time may allow things to shake out. January 6, 2011 to be exact.
Following this afternoon’s legal melee, blinkoncrime.com Editor In Chief asked prominent Washington State Family Law Attorney, Lea Conner, to weigh in:
Although I preface my comments with the fact that I practice family law in Washington State and not in Oregon, I am an Oregon native that has followed this case closely.
I’m a bit perplexed by Peter Bunch’s reasoning that if the court were to abate the dissolution, he would respond by filing a motion to modify the restraining order so that Terri Horman could have visitation with the parties’ daughter. Essentially, Mr. Bunch is arguing that the abatement would prejudice his client’s ability to parent her child. My understanding of the Multnomah County local rules is that an abatement means that the entire case is halted. Neither party can bring a motion before the court, nor can the court hear argument or make any ruling on motions.
It was also interesting to hear Mr. Bunch argue that proceeding with the divorce would violate Ms. Horman’s right against self-incrimination in the disappearance of her stepson. This is the first time that Terri Horman has publicly acknowledged any self-incrimination issues. In her motion for abatement, Ms. Horman, through counsel, argued that the ongoing investigation into Kyron Horman’s disappearance had made it “virtually impossible…to proceed with divorce-related issues in an effective an[d] orderly fashion[.]” Were Mr. Bunch to bring a motion to allow visitation, Mr. Horman would no doubt argue that Ms. Horman’s actions demonstrate that Ms Horman or someone she knew was responsible for Kyron Horman’s disappearance, and that her behavior since Kyron’s disappearance shows that she is unstable and poses a threat to their daughter’s safety.
I do not believe Mr. Horman would raise Ms. Horman’s 2005 convictions for DUI and reckless endangerment, as not only later chose to have a child with Ms. Horman since that time, he also left both of his children in her care for extended periods while he was at work. Under those facts, it would be hard to conclude that Mr. Horman believed Ms. Horman posed a threat to their daughter. The judge’s comment that “[e]ventually, Terri will have to decide whether or not to plead the fifth, regardless of the timing of the proceedings,” seems to indicate that the judge may not be willing to hold the action in abatement past the January 6, 2011, hearing.
I’m also interested in Mr. Bunch’s comment that “Rudy Sanchez” is an alias. If that’s true, then what is Rudy Sanchez’ real name, and how exactly did he first come in contact with Terri Horman?
It was also strange to learn that Michael Cook was subpoenaed to testify at the hearing. I’m curious if there were others scheduled to testify as well. I cannot speak to how the Oregon court operates in practice. However, I note that each party provided written affidavits in support of their respective motions.
Is there some reason that Mr. Cook’s statement could only be presented in oral testimony?
I’m not sure I understand Mr. Bunch’s logic in saying “If this is not abated we will not get reciprocal discovery.”
The state is not a party to a dissolution action. In a dissolution action, the parties can seek discovery from each other, and depending on the court rules, from third parties as well.
I’m not sure why Mr. Bunch would have the impression that there would be reciprocal discovery with a third party in a dissolution action, especially when that third party is law enforcement.
There’s a disconnect between Mr. Bunch’s argument that Ms. Horman cannot defend herself because she would incriminate herself in the disappearance of her stepson, and his statement that “If Mr. Horman is really interested in what‘s best for the child, then Mr. Horman wouldn’t object to any visitation by this child’s mother.”
The apparent logic is that Ms. Horman admits that if she speaks, she will incriminate herself in some as-yet-to-be-named crime related to Kyron’s disappearance, yet Mr. Horman is now supposed to trust her to care for his other child, because that’s so obviously in their daughter’s best interest.
Check back to blinkoncrime.com for updates.
Madeline Tanner, contributor and copy editor, www.blinkoncrime.com
Lea Connor, Esq., legal analyst, www.blinkoncrime.com
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@riverpearl
great post well said:)
LPB,I’m not sure who you think I might be,but I assure you I’m only me,an old woman in Texas with a lot of time on my hands.. I do wander about on other boards.. but I have none of those initals in my name.
All I want is for kids to be safe.. and for animals to get the proper care-you know,food/water/clean place to live/vet if needed. same for kids..some of them don’t get the basics of care.. food/water/clean place to live/dr if needed.
Much love to Kyron and to all the missing.
Everything I say is my own opinion only,brought on by too many boards /coffee/”Lie To Me” and English cozies..
26.MockingbirdSings says:
October 18, 2010 at 8:48 pm
http://www.katu.com/news/national/105174929.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What an idiot! This kind of alcohol-related, child endangerment/abandonment story just makes my blood boil.
Thanks for letting me rant.
Falstaff says:
October 18, 2010 at 9:31 pm
About the Billboards
Have never, ever, seen billboards in other languages in the city of Portland. Somewhere, long ago I read that they were “directed to a certain population,” landscapers? We do not have that many Russians or Mexicans to warrant billboards in foreign languages, only a very small population would be able to read them? Why no billboards in an Asian language, we have a large population of Asian people? Portland’s Chinatown is not far from Sauvies Island, seem far-fetched? So do the billboards in Spanish and Russian.
———————————————————————-
Thank you Falstaff for the clarification. I’ve only been to Portland one time in my life and that was way back in ’99 and at least back then, I don’t remember ever seeing any signs around town in anything but English, but change happens, so I didn’t know if maybe the population had shifted in the last 10 yrs or so. Apparently, that’s not the case, so again I’m curious and a little creeped out still about what you think might be the behind-the-scenes reason for why signs for Kyron were also put around town in Spanish and Russian of all things. You make a valid point about the Asian population … very insightful. Why NOT Asian signs as well? I know there appeared to be a decent Asian population in Portland way back then. Even Japanese people seemed to be more visible then than Russians.
Based on this, may I respectfully ask what big thing you hypothesize might’ve happened recently in the small-town, close-knit, safety net of the Skyline community to warrant the sheriff depts past responses and cryptic comments to the public about “knowing things they wished they didn’t know?” That quote from Stanton alone has weighed heavily on my mind for weeks. Your personal thoughts?
2.peg says:
October 19, 2010 at 6:49 am
————-
So sorry, Peg. I mean no disrespect. Your post reminded me of a poster on the GLP boards, who spoke of a tin foil hat quite frequently.
47.melissab says:
October 19, 2010 at 12:40 am
I think LPB is referring to Peg’s post and thinking it may have come from Cousin Tom? Am I right or wrong? Just trying to help out. GLP-God like productions.
————
You are right Melissab, that is what I think/thought. MOOS all around.
enumclawrose says:
October 19, 2010 at 2:53 am
Moving on just brings more questions. Why don’t the journalists investigate this case? Wasn’t today the last scheduled day of the GJ witnessess? Is this the end of the supeonas? If so, will they vote? Why can’t TH ever testify to anything without incriminating herself? (That says volumes.) Where did she get that money and how can it not be a gift, loan, or martial asset? Are we to believe that RS has more aliases then what we already know about? Why did Elsy leave and was it willingly and is she even related to this case? WHY can someone refuse to speak when a little boy is missing, and more to the point HOW?
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Great questions, enumclawrose! Some of them I believe are million dollar ones because I firmly believe if we just had a few of them factually answered, we could somehow piece together the rest of them to form a viable conclusion about what really happened to Ky. The question that gets me the most however is WHY CAN someone refuse to speak when a little boy is missing?
That brings back all the nuances of the Haleigh Cummings and in a way, the Caylee Anthony case where Casey had information about where to search for her daughter (because she herself left her there), but refused to give it to her parent’s, LE and even Tim Miller in order for her daughter to be found and to have a proper and respectable burial. That thought still burns me up inside … even 2 yrs later! Casey knew she was guilty, I believe Misty is guilty of at least something regarding Haleigh as well (again, why she was so vague or just outright deceptive with LE), and now TMH says she cannot speak w/o incriminating herself. See a pattern here? As much as I hate to admit it, I believe TMH’s resistance to talking about what she knows is an admission of some degree of guilt shouting from the treetops. As they say, “guilt creeps out in little ways” .. or in some cases, screams at the top of it’s lungs. Silence speaks volumes in many cases.
I’ve been thinking about the money question too. What else can money represent other than a gift, loan or marital asset? The only other thing I can possibly think of is a payoff of some sort. I mean seriously … is there something else I might’ve missed? What else is there? But if that’s the case, a payoff for WHAT exactly? To keep quiet about who else actually kidnapped Ky? To silence someone for explaining “why” Ky was taken? I have no idea. But then, if that’s the case, the very next question that leads to is WHO would be paying off TMH to keep quiet and why? Was she really leading that nefarious of a life? I realize few people are squeaky-clean but good Lord … that’s some pretty heavy stuff if the word payoff has entered into the picture I would think. I really have no idea what really happened. I truly wish I did (or maybe I really don’t). I suppose time will take care of that (I hope).
The only thing I know for sure is this case is probably the most mysterious one of the few mysterious ones I have ever personally followed. The Gabriel Johnson case is another one that really has me mystified, but that’s an entirely different blog altogether.
Tricia at WS said last nite/this morning that she did file the police report and will be faxing the info to Kyron’s task force later on today. This is in regards to the letter she received that seemed threatening to her. Some of her posters have encouraged her to turn the info. over to the USPS. She hasn’t indicated if she has or will.
Each forum owner gets to decide how to handle this. And whether or not to disclose what actions they’ve taken. I’m fortunately not in that position, but if I were, I believe I’d report it to LE and ask LE if I should follow up with USPS. Whether I felt threatened or not, I just wouldn’t want to feel like an enabler. People often escalate their behavior when not confronted early on.
Exactly. And point of fact, she stated he had her address wrong, but the other letters received were correct. So if someone were to act out, he had places to go.
B
If there was someone else in or near TMH’s truck the day of the science fair (as an alleged witness said), do we know yet if that someone was in fact a male or female? Do we at least have that narrowed down or no? Just wondering if RS or AS was truly involved as many believe, then why would LE have been passing out questionnaire’s to the Skyline community and pictures of TMH’s truck and DDS if RS and AS were serious people of interest as well? Why weren’t RS and AS also pictured/mentioned in those flyers/questionnaires passed out by LE in the 1st couple wks?
As to the Elgin teacher, one reason people are sometimes left alone (“none of our business”) is because they belong to a union.
Don’t know in this case, but anyone who’s interested in researching it could start with a recent newspaper article that names at least one teacher’s union that’s active in Oregon:
http://blog.oregonlive.com/mapesonpolitics/2010/09/following_obamas_lead_dudley_c.html
justice23 says:
October 19, 2010 at 10:50 am
_______________________
Maybe because AS-S was (supposedly) in custody on other charges at the time? Maybe because they already had/had access to all the evidence they needed regarding the possible involvement of RS and AS-S in Ky’s disappearance? No point putting out flyers if you already know.
I still say, as KH did, at that time LE was still trying to assess the extent of TH’s role in this. And of DDS’. As to DDS, after the flyer, they got enough tips for them to say they weren’t so interested in her. As to TH, I also still think what they found out could exonerate her–at least from the role they thought she might have played.
LE was asking for public help only where they needed it.
@6.justice23 says:
October 19, 2010 at 10:50 am
If there was someone else in or near TMH’s truck the day of the science fair (as an alleged witness said), do we know yet if that someone was in fact a male or female? Do we at least have that narrowed down or no? Just wondering if RS or AS was truly involved as many believe, then why would LE have been passing out questionnaire’s to the Skyline community and pictures of TMH’s truck and DDS if RS and AS were serious people of interest as well? Why weren’t RS and AS also pictured/mentioned in those flyers/questionnaires passed out by LE in the 1st couple wks?
——————————————-
Exactly. I have been pondering that also. So far, publicly, LE has pointed their fingers at TH and DDS. Investigators are holding back on the witness info developed from their last flyer. I wonder if we will ever know what role(s) if any, RS and AS had in Ky’s disappearance. They may be material to the MFH only.
Wikipedia lists Portland Oregon population as:
74 % White
8.8 % Latino
6.5 % Asian
6.4 % Black
1.4 % American Indian/Alaska Native
Others fill the remainder
No mention of Russian population. Note the Asian population, they didn’t get a billboard in Chinatown.
Once again, has anyone EVER scene a Spanish or Russian billboard in Portland before? I think not. Many of the men from Mexico/Russia do yard, carpentry work, advertise on Craig’s List. A year ago my neighbor had a “scary” father and son from Russia repairing his fence. Inexpensive, but quality work, but this team was too scary for me. I listen to my gut, didn’t want these two around.
@Idahogal
I hope you do not stop posting. I have come to really look forward to your posts. You express a lot of the same feelings for this case as I do.
@enumclawrose
October 19, 2010 at 2:53 am
If only we could have an answer to those questions…. I’m on the “I just don’t get it” boat right now. I keep thinking every single day, how is this right? How can this be? A beautiful little boy whose whereabouts are completely unknown, and yet those responsible have yet to be formally identified??? It’s beyond disappointing to me – beyond.
@riverpearl
October 19, 2010 at 12:27 am
THANK YOU SO MUCH for that post. I don’t know how I missed that. I had been waiting for Brown to do something on Kyron’s case. I can’t wait to click on that and read it.
I just want to say to everybody that, I visit BOC everyday, several times a day. I seldom post, but GREATLY appreciate the posts of those that are here on a regular basis. I’m completely attached to Kyron, and hope for nothing more than for him to be found and returned to Desiree and Kaine. I have no research or theory contributions to add here, but I can tell you that in heart and mind I stand with all of you here that go out of your way to do something for Kyron. I stand here holding hands with you until he comes home.
God be with you, Kyron. You are in the hearts of many, always.
Thanks beejay. Makes sense now. The whole RS/AS-S angle is somewhat confusing for me and I know a lot less about them and their history/background than I seem to know about TMH so when people talk about RS or AS-S, especially in great detail, my mind just starts to swim in circles.
So based on your comment about TH possibly being exonerated (at least in the role they thought she might have played), are you saying that you personally think she did (or didn’t) have anything to do w/Ky’s disappearance? Also … did I miss something or does LE no longer consider DDS an actual person of potential interest any longer?
Blink
With all the unknowns still surrounding Ky’s case(at least in the public anyway), and the lack of new info coming out recently, along w/no search this past weekend on Sauvie, no suspects or persons of interests named and no arrests made, if you think this case will somehow have a resolution by the end of the year?
I know this is all about Kyron and not about us bloggers but I can’t help thinking that it’s hard enough not really knowing what happened as it is. I don’t even want to think about this case being extended into the new year feeling the same lack of closure that I’m sure most of us have been feeling for many mths already. It’s really difficult waiting for some kind of resolution not even knowing why it’s taking so long and all the crazy “what if’s …” that we have come up with because none of us really “know” what happened.
Do you think they basically know who’s all responsible but are just tying up loose ends now to make sure a conviction will hold up in a court of law? Or should we really all be worried that they don’t really know who’s involved and/or they don’t have enough “evidence” yet to be able to prove it? If it’s this difficult for us bloggers not really knowing the details, I don’t even want to phantom what it must be like for Kaine, Desiree, and Tony. My heart bleeds for DY in that respect. I pray that God has stood beside her and her family every step of the way and that the truth is finally revealed soon.
LE has stated Terri was the last person to see Kyron on June 4th. If this still holds true for LE wouldn’t that rule out the theory that Ky left with someone other than Terri? Whoever took Ky from the school was the last person to see him unless he was handed off to still another person. There are reasons we don’t know of yet as to why LE is pointing the finger at TH.
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2010/07/24/kyron-horman-case-initial-timeline-for-june-4th/
@ Falstaff says:
October 19, 2010 at 12:32 pm
_______________________________
I think possibly those population figures you found include Russians and Ukrainians in with “whites”. You can find an academic discussion of why the influx, and where they live at the link below (scroll down to about 3/4s of the page):
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-5423444/African-Russian-and-Ukrainian-refugee.html
**********************
There is a known Russian mafia-related presence in Portland as well. Twinkletoes could say more if she were to pop in about now.
The billboards, IIRC, were placed in areas appropriate to the populations. I would guess because of either LE’s suspects were known to residents there, and/or LE suspected that Ky or his abductor might have had some activity in those locales at some time. And, LE wanted to hear from everyone who might be helpful, yet didn’t read English.
@ justice23 says:
October 19, 2010 at 1:13 pm
______________________
I’m flattered that you asked my opinion, but really, I’m certainly not “in the know” about what TH might have done. I have my own impressions of her, formed early on, before she was convicted by the bio-parents in the media. It would not be helpful to anyone here for me to express my personal opinions because I have no evidence to back them up. Well, at least no more evidence than anyone else does. For discussion purposes, I don’t get into a lot of theories.
There are many possibilities, but only one truth. Which we may not know for a long time–if ever.
27.MockingbirdSings says:
October 18, 2010 at 8:48 pm
http://www.katu.com/news/national/105174929.html
“Where the heck was the “village” when this guy (I can’t say father) left the wedding drunk with his 3 year old son and couldn’t remember 25 hours later where he’d left him or the car? There are a lot more guilty people than just one man, IMO.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
YIH! What if the dad had parked his car out in the stifling heat? If the car wasn’t parked in a shaded garage, the little boy likely would’ve died of heat stroke within the 25 hours it took to find him. Clearly a case of child endangerment!
About the Billboards
@Falstaff says: October 18, 2010 at 9:31 pm
Have never, ever, seen billboards in other languages in the city of Portland. Somewhere, long ago I read that they were “directed to a certain population,” landscapers? We do not have that many Russians or Mexicans to warrant billboards in foreign languages, only a very small population would be able to read them? Why no billboards in an Asian language, we have a large population of Asian people? Portland’s Chinatown is not far from Sauvies Island, seem far-fetched? So do the billboards in Spanish and Russian.
*****************************************************************
I don’t know where Flastaff lives or hangs out in Portland but there is a very large population of Hispanics and many Russians. I read here that there is a population of Russians close to Sauvie Island. I have only seen 4 billboards and they were in English. I believe the one I saw by Sauvie Island was English. Kudos to the folks that put them up.
It is not uncommon to be in a store and at least 1/3 or the people in it are Hispanic. My particular neighborhood of nicer homes has a sizeable population of Romanians. I have made the mistake of more than once greeting someone in our park only to realize just because I think they speak English often they don’t.
Which Asian language does Falstaff think the billboard should have been in? Typically Asians learn English and assimulate in to our culture quite fast. Not the older ones particulary but that would not be a segment to be concerned with. Skyline and Sauvie Island are farming areas hence more Hispanics.
I asked a former immigration officer recently what the quota or standard there was for immigrants coming here from different countries. He said there were no quotas. Once they get into our country it is hard to get them out. He also said the government has no idea who is in our country anymore. While I don’t know if this is true it may be why it seems a lot of criminal element from other cultures is showing up. They certainly aren’t screened. Scary. JMO
Mother Hen says:
October 18, 2010 at 6:19 pm
MidWest Mom,
I just read your latest post that included Blink’s comments and my head is just spinning!!!
_______________
Me too! It has always been my belief that Terri has been working with LE from the beginning until the sting then she retained a lawyer. Everything LE has done has been done with a purpose. IMO the purpose of the flyer was to lead the perp out of hiding, It is possible that they thought RS was the perp. However with the failed sting they had to refocus their efforts. Who was the next face that they put on the flyer, dede. Was this strategic? It did draw someone into view, although he will remain nameless (from me anyways).
The timing is confusing to me since some letters were sent before Oct 1, Desiree requested reward to be increased by 350k on Oct 1st and MCSO wasn’t notified of the letters until oct 5th.
The last I heard the reward was around 86k it is not impossible for me to think that they have raised at least 7k since then. If you calculate the amount that nameless has requested plus the 350k minus 93k in reward money. equals 1 million.
Im still missing something…but nameless is unstable whether he has something to do with Kyron disappearing remains to be seen. JMO
@riverpearl
“Pat Brown: No, they have to come up with something that’s going to work in a court of law.
Melissa Parker (Smashing Interviews Magazine): Like finding a body.
Pat Brown: Yes, they need a body. I don’t think they’re going to find a live body no matter what. It just makes no sense that the child was taken and put somewhere. There’s no logic behind that. Could I be wrong? Gosh, I hope so. I’d be happy if Kyron is found alive. But, realistically, they’re looking for his body.”
———————————————
I agree it would help the case if they were to locate his body. Having said that; after this length of time and the condition of a body, how could it lead investigators to the perp(s)? LE also stated early on they could prosecute without a body.
Why am I hung up on these billboards? Back to Wiki, Portland Oregon NOT on list of communities (44 communities listed) with the most Russians. But, I’m sure there are all kinds of stats for anything you want to “prove.” I’m through with the billboards, everyone knows how I feel, LOL. I have work to do!
Just wanted to say that Kyron is in my hear today as always. Many prayers and love for him today. Everyone needs you home seetheart! xxooxx
I meant to say in my “heart” today. Also (besides the point) I found out today that my stepdaughter’s husband goes to trial oct, 7, 2011.
Tiffany does not give out contact information, such as a phone number, web site, or E-mail for anyone who has information.
Does anyone know why she doesn’t?
You know ANYONE can create a web page “David Michael Hartley”.
We could find out what happened. The website needs to be Spanish.
I never took Spanish, or I would be very tempted to post a page,
so we could all help Tiffany.
Drug dealers, would not log-on, but, you never know an ex-GF to one
the dealers, may spill the beans. We all need the truth for TH and for
ourselves, since, she has yanked everyone and their mother into her
life.
Tiffany Hartley spoke out on CNN’s “AC 360″ Monday night, pleading with whoever might have information as to the whereabouts of her husband, who she says was shot while the pair were sight- seeing Sept. 30 on Falcon Lake.
Sorry, B, I posed this comment on KH blog, accidently. (Post #23)
++++++++++++++
S.H. says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
October 19, 2010 at 3:14 pm
Tiffany does not give out contact information, such as a phone number, web site, or E-mail for anyone who has information.
Does anyone know why she doesn’t?
You know ANYONE can create a web page “David Michael Hartley”.
We could find out what happened. The website needs to be Spanish.
I never took Spanish, or I would be very tempted to post a page,
so we could all help Tiffany.
Drug dealers, would not log-on, but, you never know an ex-GF to one
the dealers, may spill the beans. We all need the truth for TH and for
ourselves, since, she has yanked everyone and their mother into her
life.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20020054-504083.html
[snip]
Tiffany Hartley spoke out on CNN’s “AC 360″ Monday night, pleading with whoever might have information as to the whereabouts of her husband, who she says was shot while the pair were sight- seeing Sept. 30 on Falcon Lake. [Snip]
Falstaff says:
October 19, 2010 at 12:32 pm “Once again, has anyone EVER scene a Spanish or Russian billboard in Portland before?”
Hi Falstaff I just want to respond to your post. I live in Portland and have seen the billboards in Russian and Spanish. I saw them soon after Kyron disappeared. My husband works on the west side near Beaverton/ Hillsboro area and many of his customers are Russian or Eastern European(i.e Romanian,Ukrainian, Slavic)descent. I think most Russians fall into the category of “white” in race figures, but if you look at other demographics you’ll see Russians make up about 1.9% of Portland’s Population and Ukrainians make up another 1.1%
Other – 170,841 (32.3%)
German – 99,715 (18.8%)
Irish – 64,561 (12.2%)
English – 61,707 (11.7%)
Norwegian – 24,064 (4.5%)
United States – 20,367 (3.8%)
Italian – 19,810 (3.7%)
French – 18,511 (3.5%)
Swedish – 17,378 (3.3%)
Scottish – 17,002 (3.2%)
Scotch-Irish – 11,032 (2.1%)
Dutch – 10,986 (2.1%)
Russian – 10,303 (1.9%)
Polish – 10,042 (1.9%)
Welsh – 6,701 (1.3%)
Ukrainian – 5,867 (1.1%)
Danish – 5,786 (1.1%)
French Canadian – 4,538 (0.9%)
Subsaharan African – 4,326 (0.8%)
Swiss – 4,102 (0.8%)
Czech – 3,834 (0.7%)
Greek – 2,452 (0.5%)
Hungarian – 2,231 (0.4%)
Arab – 2,144 (0.4%)
Portuguese – 1,618 (0.3%)
Lithuanian – 1,034 (0.2%)
West Indian – 797 (0.2%)
Slovak – 544 (0.1%)
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/races/races-Portland-Oregon.html#ixzz12pheOV7I
The Portland Public Schools also offer a Russian immersion program “The 2004 American Community Survey reports that Russian is spoken at home in the City of Portland by 9,790 persons and in the four-county area by 27,806 persons (over the age of 5 years). More than 700 Russian-speaking students attend PPS.”
http://www.russianprogram.pps.k12.or.us/.docs/pg/10136
I don’t know if the billboards are targeting a specific audience such as gangs or not. I think also the reason you don’t see Asian languages on the billboards is there are so many and also the largest influx of immigrants since the mid 90′s has been from Russian and Spanish speaking countries. Most Asian immigrants have been here since early 1900′s.
enumclawrose says:
October 19, 2010 at 3:00 am
Another observation, IMO, it seems that when we get close to an answer about anyone in this case, we stop short. Going back through the threads, there is great momentum and then we change the subject.
——–
From my perspective, some of this change of momentum and stopping short is due to the fact that we only have so much information available to us. We push and dig and dig and seem to get so close only to hit a block. I think it is only out of sheer frustration that we can’t bust through (not for lack of trying), that we turn and start down another path.
I think it is a testament to many of the posters here, that you are willing to turn around and dig elsewhere when faced with these blocks. I don’t want to call them dead-ends because I am not so sure that they all are, there is just something blocking us from the rest of the info.
I too am frustrated by the lack of reporting from local media lately. What is going on with that? We get the stories here and there like the pumpkin patch story, but where is the investigative reporting?
We have many Russians on staff right now I see four signs
English. Russian. Spainsh Bosnian
on the board
Blinkers:
I believe what Idaho Hot Potato may be alluding to is that blog posters should not assume they have complete annonymity and are free to post anything they wish with absolutely no legal or practical consequences. In addition they should not be naive enough to think that their identity is unquestionably secure.
I am not saying that Blink or other site moderators would routinely divulge ftp addresses to informal inquiries but I would certainly presume that site moderators reserve the right if not duty to provide same to investigators if they suspect that information is case relevant, and there is always a possibility of subpeona from law enforcement or from litigators representing an agrieved party.
Furthermore Blink is not CIA (I think), and any poster on any blog should bear in mind the potential for security breach to ANY data source on the internet. Server security is highly variable and always in flux.
So, should posters live in fear that the cartel or al-queda are going to track you down for what you posted? Probably not, in general, but I would get your concealed carry permit before you post your mohammed cartoons.
Should posters think before they write and word their accusations or conclusions appropriately such that they avoid known falsehoods, properly identify speculations and opinions, and generally avoid outright libelous mistatements about non-public figures? YES.
If you couldn’t answer for it a court of law, If you are explicitly stating as fact something that you either know is false or do not know is fact then either word it differently or don’t say it.
People who are both well meaning and intelligent gravitate toward a site like this because it is MODERATED, because it is more than profanity laced speculation, because there is a kook filter to help keep things on point, because it has potential to do good, because it informs, entertains, and educates.
When you post YOU share in a responsibility to all of us as well as to the TRUTH. And while it is highly unlikely you will ever be asked to stand behind your ststement, BE WILLING before you hit send.
The TRUE CRIME genre appeals to people primarily as entertainment. I think this site tries to reach beyond the fascination and instead explore the possibility of CONTRIBUTION toward justice. The jury is out, but the way in which we posters conduct our business will surely influence the outcome of this experiment.
MOO
JOE – A,
I am always intrigued by what brings you “out” so to speak. Your not a foolhardy chap, no sir.
I agree with everything you said, and I am hopeful that we do that, which is conduct ourselves with integrity, in as many aspects of our human exchanges as possible, not just in the fine blogosphere.
I might split the keratin on the “entertainment” factor in true crime, but agree it is stimulus-related whether scientific, compassionate, or other, to the subject.
One very prideful, itsy correction if you do not mind indulging me-
This site has made several contributions to justice in the cases covered here, tangible even.
And there are several families of victims of crime profiled here, that are counting on our little experiment that could.
They think they can, I know they can.
I would never be so presumptuous to carry such a burden if Blink et al did not bear that in mind.
B
@justjane
Wow, that was so cool to see the breakdown of different nationalities in the area. Thank you for finding and posting, I like. Some morning we will get up and the arrests will have been made. It will be interesting to see how many people are involved in harming this child, all have “faulty wiring.”
Woodburn, OR, located along I-5 has a large Russian population–as well as hispanic.
“Nearly 75 percent of Woodburn residents are of Hispanic or Russian descent, and the Woodburn School District’s 5,100+ student body
reflects that diversity.”
http://www.osba.org/Resources/Article/Board_Operations/Executive_Search_Notices/Woodburn_Vacancy.aspx
_____________________________
Where do we know Woodburn from? Home of Ubaldo & Maria? Other of the Sanchez possible relatives? Maybe just a factoid to file away.
I promise this is not O/T. But don’t say a word about the possible connection to Ky’s case. (I’m not baiting or being coy. The research is out there; I found a cache of it. Just don’t think we should publish it here now.)
If you looked at the sleuthing done regarding the military backgrounds of persons who’ve been in the media related to Ky’s case, you’ll make a possible connection in your mind.
Remember that skull, and related items found at Ft. Lewis around Oct. 13? That area of the base was open to the public. In fact a civilian passing by on foot discovered the skull.
Further, here’s a snip from a comment at one of the media articles. Commenter: pucelas said on October 13, 2010 at 9:34 PM:
“…as a SGM (Sergeant Major for the novice like you) stationed at Ft Lewis in the 90s we were routinely briefed about bodies being found in the training areas. Especially in the area around Rainier. It was a common dumping ground for drug killings.”
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Human-skull-found-at-Joint-Base-Lewis-McChord-104907999.html
@beejay, you tease, you.
On the subject of Woodburn, I’ll just throw in two cents worth for you. The Russian community there falls into two camps, I believe. The Old Believers were religious refugees and have been here several generations now. They are fairly kept to themselves and have primarily lived off farming & ag business. They also have artisan type businesses (I’m thinking in particular of a furniture fab). Think ‘Amish’.
Then, there is a community of newer immigrants. They seem to be specializing in some specific construction trades; specifically shingling/siding.
The Mexican community there is similar in that the main community is well-established over several generations, connected to the ag/farming businesses as labor vs owning their own land. Of course there’s a newcomer-immigrant community as well, but even I wonder how much they mix. The people who are established here are legit, have retail-level businesses and are very much out in the open.
This is just my opinion, from an interested party who’s paid attention to these two immigrant communities just out of personal interest. The Mexican food in old Woodburn is awesome, too.
@33.beejay says:
October 19, 2010 at 6:25 pm
I promise this is not O/T. But don’t say a word about the possible connection to Ky’s case. (I’m not baiting or being coy. The research is out there; I found a cache of it. Just don’t think we should publish it here now.)
If you looked at the sleuthing done regarding the military backgrounds of persons who’ve been in the media related to Ky’s case, you’ll make a possible connection in your mind.
Remember that skull, and related items found at Ft. Lewis around Oct. 13? That area of the base was open to the public. In fact a civilian passing by on foot discovered the skull.
Further, here’s a snip from a comment at one of the media articles. Commenter: pucelas said on October 13, 2010 at 9:34 PM:
“…as a SGM (Sergeant Major for the novice like you) stationed at Ft Lewis in the 90s we were routinely briefed about bodies being found in the training areas. Especially in the area around Rainier. It was a common dumping ground for drug killings.”
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Human-skull-found-at-Joint-Base-Lewis-McChord-104907999.html
————————————————-
bejay, what’s O/T?
I wonder how long it will take to identify the remains…anything is possible…”other items” too… hmmm. I always “freak” when I see news about a body being found fairly close to the Portland area. I know it’s awful to say but I wish they would get a break in this case and some closure for the family.
@evie: just trying to keep it entertaining. And, possibly, fruitful.
I work as hard as most folks here to contribute to justice, but when you’re out of evidence to rehash, then a little fun can’t hurt.
I don’t eat Mexican food, but I do design furniture which DH then builds. So, Woodburn sounds interesting. With a sidetrip to visit some of the Sanchez locals. Packing heat, of course, as JoeAmer. mentioned. But then DH and I always do! Lol.
@lyla: O/T or OT means “off topic”. Not related to the thread you’re posting on.
I found it interesting that army personnel knew that base to be a dumping grounds for bodies.
Emmy says:
October 19, 2010 at 4:48 pm
I too am frustrated by the lack of reporting from local media lately. What is going on with that? We get the stories here and there like the pumpkin patch story, but where is the investigative reporting?
————————————————————————
Is it possible the “lack of investigative reporting” is a result of LE specifically telling the media that this is an open criminal investigation so they need to stay out of it for now so they don’t potentially compromise the investigation? Maybe LE has also promised certain media outlets exclusive interviews or info later once the investigation is closer to an end if they just wait and don’t get in the way for now? I know in some cases, LE will do that to keep the media from running stories about things LE considers an impedement to being able to investigate and properly convict a potential suspect.
I don’t know either, but I really wish some kind of official bombshell would happen soon.
@39.beejay says:
October 19, 2010 at 8:16 pm
@lyla: O/T or OT means “off topic”. Not related to the thread you’re posting on.
I found it interesting that army personnel knew that base to be a dumping grounds for bodies.
——————————————————-
Ahhh…very interesting. Thanks beejay!
@beejay.. sorry, I left off my teasing smilie on that!
I’m sure we’d have a great time shopping nurseries and sticking our noses where they don’t belong. Sounds like our DHs would get along swimmingly too (mine’s a luthier and plays with building furniture. He just sucks at upholstery).
@evie: I knew you were joking! Don’t expect any of those cute smilies and stuff from me. I’m inept; challenged enough just to type text and manage to get it posted. That’s why I’d never work out at SM–boxes and avatars and all kinds of mysterious things.
As to being nosey, well, I’ll admit to being female and say I think it’s just how we are. DH, probably because he’s an XY, is always amazed at what I manage to find out. (And I’m amazed at what he fails to find out, and doesn’t even want to know.) And I think if a bunch of women were given the facts in this case and turned loose, we could by goodness, get to the bottom of this mess! (Apologies to you astute, sleuthing males here.)
Ex–DH and I go to a restaurant. I go to the ladies room for 10 minutes. There’s one other woman in there primping. I come out knowing: where she went to HS/college; how she feels about her date and what she figures their future prospects are–maybe if she’s sleeping with him yet; why she divorced her husband; where she works and some lowdown on the company she works for and her boss; if she’s planning on any cosmetic surgery soon; you know–just a few facts that females can get out of people.
Now, if only I spoke Spanish. Or Russian?? Betwixt several of us here I’ll bet we’d find some non-english language skills too.
Ms. Blink:
Split not thy lovely hair! I stand duly corrected (a not uncommon occurrence). I should say that your site provides an ONGOING, and so far, mainly successful experiment in how a dedicated and diverse group of strangers might assist in turning over a leaf or two, while providing some comfort to victims, and critique to law enforcers and journalists alike.
So far I would say that you have got it mostly right (that’s all one can hope for when venturing into virgin territory) and you are correct that you have clearly made significant contributions in several different cases and in several different ways. Kudos to you, editors, and contributors.
I did a poor job of expressing my thoughts on the “true crime” journalism genre. I believe this experiment (BOC) departs wholly from the True Crime writing of the past in that the fundamental purpose here is not to entertain but to find justice and to exert a collective effort in that regard.
No offense to my description of this entity as an experiment. It is meant as a profound compliment. I can see you struggling to find the right path with your creation here as you forge ahead, how to do good without doing harm, how to dig or swim where others maybe can’t, how to keep the pressure on the bad guys and advocating for the victim without putting the good guys or just the good at risk. Clearly you and your posters struggle with these questions every day and rest assured that struggle means you care, that struggle means you strive, and that struggle means something of value is at work.
Is the jury still out on whether this is a worthwhile endeavor Blink?
No. Guilty.
It is only out waiting to see just how worthwhile it can be.
DAMN THE JURY, FULL SPEED AHEAD. carefully.
I value your tough but fair criticism, I was not offended in the least. I think you exemplify what I hope for-
Hold me to a standard, hold our work to a standard, do it for everyone- If anyone is going to spend their time reading or contributing, demand accountability.
These are the habits of the blinks. If you care about it, you must act- this is my crayon-script mantra.
Any crime or situation I cover, or investigate, could happen to anyone of us, if you don’t believe that, I have not done my job.
B
I wanted to say I mentioned the letter from that person on WS so Blink would be aware. I was shocked when I found it linked to SM. I knew others had received similar correspondence.
Yes Blink I would be very hesitant posting that and asking for comments. Why would anyone want to poke the bear?
I was setting out behind my office today and noticed how quiet it has become out over the river. All the helicopters that were flying up and down the river are gone. This made me sad. It’s as if they have stopped looking.
I pray they this case will come to a close within the next 6mos. I try very hard to not think about it. Trying to move on and clear my mind. Just can’t seem to. This is all so stuck in my brain. I am trying to spend more time with my furkids, looking forward to next year and a new foal to be born. New life into this world.
I pray the parents get all the support and help they need to get thru this horrible time. There is no greater loss than the loss of a child. These parents have now suffered the greatest loss anyone can.
Thank you Blink for the opportunity to post here and please keep up the good work.
furkids, I love that. Thank you for your perspective, it is needed today.
B
Beej–just got the funniest darn picture in my head…you laying down on the ground in the edge of the woods across from RS/AS-S’s homes, camo head to toe, face too, helmut on with twigs and moss w/face guard. Night vision goggles are the only thing peeping out from under a brush blanket. Shhhhh, be vewy qwiet, I’m hunting wanscapahs!
Cover Blower.
Nice
B
Still gonna have my walking hormone, uh, Son, write that crime hero comic about you and I’m in character development as we speak…I’m making Beej your super stealth recon gal! Cover Blower, I’ve been called worse! lol Good night wonderful Blinksters!
Cool. Tell him to make me skinny. He will know what to do.
B
Great comment lazydog – I myself look at Blink and contributors as insurance. By that, I mean, if something ever happens to me that doesn’t “quite” add up – I hope I’ve made enough friends here (and left enough clues LOL) that someone will care enough to turn over every stone.
Not really – but had to throw in a little levity.
Seriously, I wish somehow I could ease Desiree’s obvious pain – and the pain the Kaine hides pretty well but must be feeling as well. I. Cannot. Imagine.
“Any crime or situation I cover, or investigate, could happen to anyone of us, if you don’t believe that, I have not done my job.”
B
God be with you always, Blink.
Quick comment: I just don’t see Rudy or Anselmo being the party who left with Kyron. Too risky to be anywhere near that school with so many witnesses… unless said party would under normal circumstances be in or near the school OR unless said party planned on never being in the area again lest they run the risk of being recognized/caught.
We should feel compassion for JW. He is a struggling soul, possibly someone who holds information about this case, and would be an interesting study…
the fracturing that occurs when children are abused is heartbreaking but in order for it to stop we can’t be afraid to look at it, and try to understand it in a compassionate and realistic way.
31.Emmy says:
October 19, 2010 at 4:48 pm
“enumclawrose says:
October 19, 2010 at 3:00 am
Another observation, IMO, it seems that when we get close to an answer about anyone in this case, we stop short. Going back through the threads, there is great momentum and then we change the subject.
——–
From my perspective, some of this change of momentum and stopping short is due to the fact that we only have so much information available to us. We push and dig and dig and seem to get so close only to hit a block. I think it is only out of sheer frustration that we can’t bust through (not for lack of trying), that we turn and start down another path.”
****************************************
@enumclawrose & Emmy: I understand what both of you are saying. Sometimes I can visualize a scenario that is nearly complete, but am frustrated by a few missing pieces. Before those missing pieces can be filled in, a bit of new information or speculation emerges that changes the picture altogether, or leads in a slightly different direction…like the recent speculation that TH may be pregnant.
Suppose that TH IS pregnant and that she found out in May. Suppose that she was already planning to leave KH. Perhaps she was serious about her relationship with RS. Maybe when she offered RS a large sum of money to “off” KH, RS refused but suggested that she simply divorce KH. So, TH would’ve assumed that RS intended to divorce his wife and marry her (TH). But, when TH told RS in May that she was preggers and that he was the father, and began discussing their future together, RS was not so enthusiastic b/c for him, his relationship with TH was just a side interest. Perhaps that was the cause of the argument they had. TH was ready to leave KH, but needed someone to lean on for financial support since she was a SAHM, and was depending on RS to be her means of support. Maybe TH threatened RS when she learned he had no intention of leaving his wife, and so he lunged at her; or maybe she falsely reported him, sending LE to his house in hopes of breaking up his marriage.
Then…did RS set up Kyron’s kidnapping to retaliate against TH for sending LE to his house? Or, did TH arrange the kidnapping with a two-fold purpose: 1) to hurt KH and 2) to frame RS in her anger toward him for leaving her (she felt) “high and dry”? Did she have an accomplice who was seen in KH’s truck, or in a similar truck? I can’t remember now who suggested it, but I think it is plausible that TH’s accomplice watched Kiara in the truck during the SF; that TH told Kyron someone else would be taking him to his doctor’s appointment, and Kyron left school with the accomplice in a second vehicle after TH left with Kiara in the truck. I do believe it was the phantom Dr’s appointment that lured Kyron outside and into the hands of his betrayer. I think Kyron would’ve been suspicious of being taken from school for any other reason.
Who, then, was TH’s accomplice that day? I don’t think it would’ve been RS, since I doubt he was on friendly terms with TH. I think DDS was at her landscaping job. IIRC, DDS’s truck was parked at her work site and she wasn’t missed from her job until 9:00. I don’t believe that both TH and DDS having time unaccounted for during the same time period is coincidental, but DDS became involved after the abduction. So, DDS probably knew TH’s accomplice; maybe someone with connections to MX? If Kyron was eventually found in MX, LE would likely accept TH’s accusation against RS. But, the plot didn’t work out as planned and it’s just… MOO.