Kyron Horman Missing: Kaine And Terri Horman Face Off In Family Court
Portland, Or– Following one of the largest organized search weekends on Sauvie Island since Kyron Horman, 8,was abducted from Skyline School on June 4, his step-mother and father squared off in family court. Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, arrived with his attorney, Laura Rackner.
Kaine’s estranged wife Terri Horman, arrived with her criminal defense attorney; Stephen Houze and her family law attorney Peter Bunch.
Mr. Horman appeared in a crisp-white dress shirt and tie, and Ms. Moulton-Horman wore an eggplant hued suit with a long skirt.
Cameras were banned in the downtown Multnomah County courtroom; however, there were apparently several hidden “nests” as the tweets were flying real-time.
Peter Bunch, counsel to Terri Horman, is adamant his client is the subject of more than one criminal investigation:
“The state has the ability to obtain every single bit of information that is produced in this case and that is outside the bounds of what it could do were this proceeding not occurring,” Bunch said in court.
“It is fundamentally unfair for Kitty (Kiara) and for Miss Horman for me to be hamstrung in the divorce case for the information I have compared to what they have.” “The publicity that’s going on is not being driven by Ms. Horman, it’s being driven by Mr. Horman, when he tells national media there’s no doubt Ms. Horman is involved.” “If Mr. Horman is really interested in what‘s best for the child, then Mr. Horman wouldn’t object to any visitation by this child’s mother.” “We’ll concede, Mr. Horman can have the house, right now. Mrs. Horman is going to lose money…”
Terri Horman has not been declared a suspect in either Kyron Horman’s disappearance or the alleged murder for hire plot against Kaine Horman. She is however, seeking access to all of her 911 calls dating back to the DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS.
While this timeline coincides with accusations by Kaine Horman in his filings that Terri attempted to arrange to have him murdered, this is the first public revelation of that call. Bunch went on to say that Rackner and Kaine Horman, who are parties to case sensitive criminal investigation materials involving Terri, are at a supreme advantage to his client who should only be expected to plead her protections under the 5th amendment as a result.
After heated debate by those sides, we learned: Rudy Sanchez, the infamous landscaper/hitman for hire, has an alias, and has eluded service in the civil matter to date, although he appears to have cooperated. Bunch proclaims Sanchez is unlocatable as a result of MCSO unwillingness to share discovery of a witness in the civil case ( blink holds hands over eyes).
Michael Cook, a/k/a sexter king, waited all afternoon via subpoena by Rackner, but was only interviewed by the press. He states he cut ties with both Terri and Kaine days before he was outed for invasive scapular intrusions. No word on that healing process.
Terri Horman had her own personal black Friday this year.
She called 911 THE DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS. Regular contributors and readers of blinkoncrime.com doubt she had sale flyer questions.
Judge Keith Meisenheimer, was sensitive to Kaine and Kyron’s ‘round the clock nightmare, but feels some time may allow things to shake out. January 6, 2011 to be exact.
Following this afternoon’s legal melee, blinkoncrime.com Editor In Chief asked prominent Washington State Family Law Attorney, Lea Conner, to weigh in:
Although I preface my comments with the fact that I practice family law in Washington State and not in Oregon, I am an Oregon native that has followed this case closely.
I’m a bit perplexed by Peter Bunch’s reasoning that if the court were to abate the dissolution, he would respond by filing a motion to modify the restraining order so that Terri Horman could have visitation with the parties’ daughter. Essentially, Mr. Bunch is arguing that the abatement would prejudice his client’s ability to parent her child. My understanding of the Multnomah County local rules is that an abatement means that the entire case is halted. Neither party can bring a motion before the court, nor can the court hear argument or make any ruling on motions.
It was also interesting to hear Mr. Bunch argue that proceeding with the divorce would violate Ms. Horman’s right against self-incrimination in the disappearance of her stepson. This is the first time that Terri Horman has publicly acknowledged any self-incrimination issues. In her motion for abatement, Ms. Horman, through counsel, argued that the ongoing investigation into Kyron Horman’s disappearance had made it “virtually impossible…to proceed with divorce-related issues in an effective an[d] orderly fashion[.]” Were Mr. Bunch to bring a motion to allow visitation, Mr. Horman would no doubt argue that Ms. Horman’s actions demonstrate that Ms Horman or someone she knew was responsible for Kyron Horman’s disappearance, and that her behavior since Kyron’s disappearance shows that she is unstable and poses a threat to their daughter’s safety.
I do not believe Mr. Horman would raise Ms. Horman’s 2005 convictions for DUI and reckless endangerment, as not only later chose to have a child with Ms. Horman since that time, he also left both of his children in her care for extended periods while he was at work. Under those facts, it would be hard to conclude that Mr. Horman believed Ms. Horman posed a threat to their daughter. The judge’s comment that “[e]ventually, Terri will have to decide whether or not to plead the fifth, regardless of the timing of the proceedings,” seems to indicate that the judge may not be willing to hold the action in abatement past the January 6, 2011, hearing.
I’m also interested in Mr. Bunch’s comment that “Rudy Sanchez” is an alias. If that’s true, then what is Rudy Sanchez’ real name, and how exactly did he first come in contact with Terri Horman?
It was also strange to learn that Michael Cook was subpoenaed to testify at the hearing. I’m curious if there were others scheduled to testify as well. I cannot speak to how the Oregon court operates in practice. However, I note that each party provided written affidavits in support of their respective motions.
Is there some reason that Mr. Cook’s statement could only be presented in oral testimony?
I’m not sure I understand Mr. Bunch’s logic in saying “If this is not abated we will not get reciprocal discovery.”
The state is not a party to a dissolution action. In a dissolution action, the parties can seek discovery from each other, and depending on the court rules, from third parties as well.
I’m not sure why Mr. Bunch would have the impression that there would be reciprocal discovery with a third party in a dissolution action, especially when that third party is law enforcement.
There’s a disconnect between Mr. Bunch’s argument that Ms. Horman cannot defend herself because she would incriminate herself in the disappearance of her stepson, and his statement that “If Mr. Horman is really interested in what‘s best for the child, then Mr. Horman wouldn’t object to any visitation by this child’s mother.”
The apparent logic is that Ms. Horman admits that if she speaks, she will incriminate herself in some as-yet-to-be-named crime related to Kyron’s disappearance, yet Mr. Horman is now supposed to trust her to care for his other child, because that’s so obviously in their daughter’s best interest.
Check back to blinkoncrime.com for updates.
Madeline Tanner, contributor and copy editor, www.blinkoncrime.com
Lea Connor, Esq., legal analyst, www.blinkoncrime.com
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A couple of thoughts – I DEFINITELY see spanish billboards in this area on a regular basis. Not Russian though. That has struck as odd from the start, although the ones I’ve seen have all been on Highway 30, which is the conduit from Skyline to Suavie Island and possibly the Russian population in concentrated there.
Someone above mentioned Terry’s early “cooperation”. One thing has always seemed strange to me. When they handed out the second flyer to “jog our memories” the picture of Terri was clearly taken from the press conference. If they were truly trying to make us think back to that day and Terri was cooperating, why wouldn’t they have her put on the same clothes she was wearing that day, do her hair the same way, etc. I know they say she was cooperating then and agreed to the flyer, but frankly I think LE is just flat out lying about that. Otherwise, they should have at least been able to get her to pose for a decent picture, instead of using the slightly blurry one they had. MOO, of course.
Falstaff
You are welcome! I also found it interesting to see the break down of ethnic groups. I hope you are right and we see an arrest soon and finally can get some answers.Thanks!
Great visual MelissaB – Maybe Beejay can borrow this guy’s outfit!
http://www.kgw.com/home/Camo-clad-burglary-suspect-arrested-near-museum-104991249.html
@Emmy: You obviously haven’t seen me first thing in the morning! Don’t need his outfit, thanks. I want the undercover look that Sandra Bullock had in the movie Miss Confidentiality.
Who is Joeamerica. Has he always been here
is he a friend of Blinks
I like his post
however I hope I don’t read true crime ,watch 48hours and come to
true crime blogs for intertainment
yuck that would be using others pain for intertainment
cold!
No it is much more than that higher!
I do not know him, he pops in when he pops in, not case specific. He was not being insulting, to his credit he said he did not articulate his sentiment in the way he intended.
B
The MAX “train” {mass transit] in Portland Metro area has its announcements in BOTH english & spanish.
[it has been a matter of YEARS]. Nothing hinky there. Yes, some people have been ‘upset’ when it started since we are not a bi-lingual state &/or country. But there is a large hispanic population in metro area.
There was never “any” explanation of the 3-languages used on billboards. Most people have taken @ the time that there was a 7 y/o missing, if ANYONE, regardless of language, read a billboard, they would call.
Collectively on Blink, we have leaned toward the hispanic community because of hispanic LS. Also, since there are pockets of Russians in area w/ have “internet tracked” RS/LS, we lean towards the reason for Russian language billboards.
Until such time as LE/DA release the case to public ie. arrests (?), trials (?) we, the public are left to “guessing” the “true reason” for 3-languages billboards.
Hope that explains it~there is simply a wait & see just like most everything in Kyron’s case.
JMHO …remaining hopeful for Kyron.
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RE: BILLBOARDS
justice23 says: October 19, 2010 at 10:20 am
-AND-
Falstaff says: October 18, 2010 at 9:31 pm
Beejay~
Here are some recent links on a Lincoln High School teacher/PPS employee & OEA (Oregon Education Association) member.
Since PPS has “fired” him, I felt the Elgin teacher still “working” was questionable.
Oh, if you do some googling of Lincoln High, they have had recent “issues” w/ staff.
Lincoln Hi Head Football Coach Fired
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/68870257.html
http://www.kptv.com/sports/21154775/detail.html
http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2010/02/former_lincoln_high_football_c.html
______________________
beejay says: October 19, 2010 at 10:50 am
As to the Elgin teacher, one reason people are sometimes left alone (“none of our business”) is because they belong to a union.
Justice23 10-19 10:50 am
The flier has the two redheads together around 10am. That has always suggested to me that DDS was picked up by TH after TH saw AL at FM#2. At that same press conference, LE wanted to talk to a “witness” who was in the parking lot and saw the person near the truck. IMO, the person in the parking lot is the accomplice that LE has not been able to identify.
MariaEl 10-19 12:55 pm
There are a lot of us in your boat, the SS ???.
Emmy 10-19-10 4:48 pm
I think you are right about us stopping short because we have limited information. Sometimes, it just feels that we are so close to an answer.
Beejay 10-19-10 6:25 pm
LE? Otherwise I’m lost.
I live at the in the foothills of Mt Rainier. Gods Country. It’s also where Gary Ridgeway aka Green River Killer chose to dispose of some of the women he murdered. There are so many remote areas here even after decades, I haven’t seen them all. JBLM is in a rough area, (as is consistent with most military installations) and also just a few hours north of Portland. Not sure where you are going with this, but I would be willing to help.
Regarding Elsy, we know that she lived with Ubaldo Sanchez in the apartment building, which is the address you found, in Portland.
Ubaldo R Sanchez is related to Rodolfo S Estrada (36) aka Rodolfo Sanchez. (Oregon City, Estacada)
Ubaldo F Sanchez (49) aka Ubaldo Sanchez Fernand aka Fernandez B Sanchez is related to Maria E Sanchez (49) and Maria G Sanchez (49). (Woodburn, Canby)
That leaves us with:
Ubaldo F Sanchez (38) (Beaverton, Portland) Relatives are Chavez-Sanchez
Ubaldo Sanchez Garcia (34) (McMinnville)
Ubaldo Sanchez Robles (38) (Cornelius)
Ubaldo Sanchez Saenz (46) (Clackmas, Portland)
Idahogal we need you.
Puzzled, where are you?
Lyla~
“Le will be picking from the poisonous tree on the mfh issue as far as Terri is concerned.
B”
-AND-
S says: October 9, 2010 at 3:31 am -It’s like the bottom fell out of the June 26th basket and all the eggs were smashed in the dirt.
-AND-
“Yes, I know this is a tough realization for many, but it is what it is.”
>>>”I think if you asked Staton today if they needed a body to prosecute THIS crime, realistically, he would have a different answer…”
B
-AND-
“This all goes back to the same concerns I have had since I first saw the emergency ex parte order, and a comment from the judge, and Atty Rackner. Family Law and criminal investigation do not mix in the investigative phase. At least not on paper.”
“If Kyron were located or criminal charges filed in the mfh, I would have the exact same opinion. I do not know what sovereignty exceptions LE enjoys under OR statute, but I would not rule out if Terri Horman nor Rudy Sanchez are ever charged in the mfh plot, that TH cries parental alienation against MCSO. Did they have prob cause for the information being provided to Kaine, and of course for the necessary warrants, absolutely. Let’s face it, the cause of the RO was SEALED initially, but many folks heard the entire thing on their scanners.”
“I support LE, at times, to a fault I have been told. My first loyalty and responsibility is and forever will be is the victim, in this case, Kyron Horman. There are so many things they have done I am extremely impressed with.”
>>”While I understand why they felt the sting was necessary, I think the fact that the DA is now running this case is evidence that it was a judgement error.”
“Overall, I feel obligated to say that I would rather have a LEA be overly aggressive than not.”
B
____________________
I am using these comments to show you, it is a “different” case since the Sheriff made the remark of NOT needing a body to prosecute.
The DA is “leading” the Kyron Horman case -and- over seeing the task force. The “legal” part of case got “muddy”.
___________________________________________
lyla says: October 19, 2010 at 2:56 pm
… “LE also stated early on they could prosecute without a body.”
Investigator 10-16-10 8:34 am
I do realize that you and your agency is governed by policy and legislation and that you are not in my state, which honestly has such a horrible track record for protecting kids that the governor was about to dismantle the agency and rebuild it when the recession hit, and well, she has been busy.
Please don’t think that you or any other employee is being judged here. Just the fact that you are dedicating your lifes work to this cause puts you ahead of me in that respect. I have a friend that works for CPS, she interviews small children, not in their homes, but in an area in the building that she works. She just took a leave of absence for a month. I respect her contribution and I understand her need for a break. (She is trying to decide whether to stay in the trenches or go back to school for her masters).
Wouldn’t it be lovely if the state senators and representatives would come to those in the field and ask what laws you wished were in place and what policies would help? I hope you will share some of your insights, so we can help push for the laws that will help you help the kids.
Mockingbirdsings
I am wracking my brains for predicators, just can’t come up with anything. I do think the picture on this site of the Horman’s with KH’s hand on TH’s breast is kind of sexually immature looking. Maybe it was all in good fun, but it seems kind of high school, like something along the lines of teenage humor. JMO. That’s all I got.
Dear LPB
I did not take your post as disrespect,only as an attempt to clarify.
Interesting that someone else and I have the same disjointed,misspelled,badly puncuated way of writing
This case is crazy,so is Zahara’s. I wish/hope/pray these children are alive and well and come back soon. Kyron seemed to be getting more care than Zarah,but both are missing.
* seemed to be getting more care in the family setting* I meant..
enumclawrose: I owe you an apology for wasting your valuable brainpower. I was just joking around yesterday, trying to give people something to sleuth, since there’s nothing new. Although it is possible, since murderers have been known to dispose of their victims in a familiar place, that someone who had spent time at Ft. Lewis be worth looking at.
I think evie knows who I was referencing. I just assumed everyone did, based on previous research. I don’t particularly think he’s our guy, but stranger things have happened.
enumclawrose: I don’t recall anyone’s military service having been discussed on BOC. (And I doubt that we should be discussing it here now. Just for off-screen pondering…) It was, however, posted on another site and I found a cached page for that yesterday. It might have also been posted on SM earlier; don’t know. Not being intentionally obscure here; just discreet.
I must say, I am quite touched by the kind and thoughtful posts sent my way, thank you kindly. I have decided to carry on and see this through, for Kyron and those that love and care so much about him. I went hiking yesterday and sat on a mountain side to clear my head, say prayers and just breathe. It was very helpful, I feel renewed. Onward and upward, very carefully, until this sweet boy is found and those responsible are held accountable. FWIW, the past 48 hours have produced a flurry of excellent posts and information…I cannot resist weighing in and I have so much more to ponder.
******************************
6.justice23 says:
October 19, 2010 at 10:50 am
(snipped) If there was someone else in or near TMH’s truck the day of the science fair (as an alleged witness said), do we know yet if that someone was in fact a male or female?
@justice- I believe that someone was Ky…remember when DY slipped up in an interview saying “Why would Kyron even be outside?”…and another person was seen as well. I strongly believe that one or more person(s) saw Ky near a white Ford truck that morning, and saw another person in the truck that was not a child. This is based on the following KGW story , which I have posted ad nauseum:
http://www.kgw.com/home/2nd-person-seen-in-Terri-Hormans-truck-100301534.html
16.justice23 says:
October 19, 2010 at 1:30 pm
I have the exact same questions, you stated everything so very well.
FWIW, I have posted this link to part of the DY and TY interview on Dateline. Given that TY is a LEO, an experienced detective and is as close to this situation as one can get, I feel that he is correct and knows that of which he speaks. This interview has always been a huge factor in my thinking:
http://www.kgw.com/home/Mom-thinks-Terri-Horman-plotted-Kyrons-disappearance-98430699.html
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32.JOEAMERICA says:
October 19, 2010 at 5:20 pm
@JoeAmerica – Excellent post, you addressed my concerns exactly. I will take the Idaho Hot Potato label as a compliment, LOL.
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I see Toasty1 now calls me Idahog, LOL again, just don’t call me IdahoHo- I have actually seen a license plate that says exactly that!
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49.enumclawrose says:
October 19, 2010 at 2:53 am
@erose- Excellent questions and post, I wish we had more information and therefore more answers. IMO the media is treading lightly and LE is keeping everything very quiet. I agree that TH’s behaviors, silence, “inability” to testify and apparent lack of emotions speak volumes. IMO, she has a very narcissistic personality and sociopathic tendencies. If I had seen her actually cry real tears, plead for answers and help in Ky’s disappearance, and look truly distraught in any way my opinion might be different.
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14.MariaEl says:
October 19, 2010 at 12:55 pm
@MariaEl- Thank you. I always enjoy your posts, our hearts are definitely in the same place, one LA lady to another, as it were.
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@loreli48- Almost a whole year until trial for all of you, I will continue to send my thoughts and prayers your way. Stay strong.
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@beejay- Get your fierce self out here, we’ll hit the ground running and “git’ er’ done”. I am so curious about the military background, I must investigate further, you are just wicked, I love it.
****************************
@Mockingbird- “Nice guy”? I thought you were a gal?! I find it fascinating that one can mentally assign a gender based on words alone.
Blink, you knew I could not stay away, didn’t you? Of course!
@Rosey … hey Rosey, I think the Blinksters have come up with at least three possible scenarios for solving this mystery and yet here we are .. in the same place Kaine said in August .. back at the beginning.
I’ve got the white board up in the front room with 4 columns .. what we know.. what we don’t know.. what we need to know.. and who the hell knows..
My one and only LE source just walks past the door without even looking in nowadays .. the two cats and four dogs have even quit coming in ..
I too have gone back to the beginning to see what was missed. The only conclusion I come up with is that there is a third, still unidentified person who actually took Ky and disposed of him.. and then disappeared himself.
I also think, and we may never know, that Elsy’s disappearance is a piece of one of the scenarios. I don’t think her disappearnce is a coincidence.
In the who the hell knows column is AS-S and why in God’s name is he being released — EVER??? I have no idea why Blink included him in the first place.. his timeline is accounted for except June 24th, the day of the LE sting.
I remain puzzled and now deflated. I can only imagine how LE and DY and KH are feeling.
Just think about this … every question we had and attempted to answer, LE has had as well and have answered .. the delay in arresting someone isn’t exclusively because they don’t have a body .. it’s because they don’t have a suspect. Everything that can possibly be known about TH and RS is known by LE. If LE was close to an arrest they would not have reorganized into a task force and asked for more $$$. LE may have their working theory and it may cross over into other investigations, but they don’t have the one person who took KY and disposed of him.
We have to think outside the box .. the answer is not in what is known .. the answer is in what is NOT known.
@Peg
I am old also and I have lost many writting skills along the way
don’t worry
I thought you were being funny when I first read your posts
now I relate
we all just want Kyron home for Disiree and Kiane
such a heartbraking situation
such a long wait
no real facts
Hi Texas from Portland Or.
@Mockingbirdsings
I believe one of the predictors prior to June 4th is Kyron was scheduled for visits with DY and TY every other weekend. What weekend those were scheduled? However,when Kaine was asked the question if he knew that Kyron was supposed to be going to Medford on the June 4th he stated no that he did not. This leads me to believe that there was a change from the normal weekend visits.
And I don’t recall it EVER been mentioned if Terri was “in the know” of the visit to medford. anyone???
if not, then that poses a whole new set of questions.
@peg: Zahra Baker has been in my thoughts alot, too. At first, I wanted to give her father the benefit of the doubt, but since reading transcripts of his call to 911, I highly doubt his innocence. During the call, he offered an excuse for not checking on his daughter earlier, claiming she was moody because she was “coming in to puberty” and would only come out of her room when she wanted:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/10/19/1773525/zahra-bakers-father-reports-her.html
But, relative Brittany Bentley claims that “Zahra Clare Baker was only allowed out of her room for about five minutes each day to eat.”
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/10/19/1773525/zahra-bakers-father-reports-her.html
Also, in the 911 transcripts, Mr. Baker quickly suggested to the dispatcher that his daughter was kidnapped and even offered an explanation of why she was kidnapped (mistakenly identity). It seems that he was over-eager in directing LE to the hypothesis he and his wife wanted them to arrive at. Suspicious, IMO.
Doesn’t look too good for either Kyron or Zahra. It breaks my heart to try to imagine what happened to them!
lily says:
October 19, 2010 at 11:22 pm
Seriously, I wish somehow I could ease Desiree’s obvious pain – and the pain the Kaine hides pretty well but must be feeling as well. I. Cannot. Imagine.
————————————————————————
Ditto, lily. There are no words that adequately describe that kind of a pain. My heart is absolutely torn apart for her.
@puzzled says:
October 20, 2010 at 1:36 pm
If LE was close to an arrest they would not have reorganized into a task force and asked for more $$$.
********************************************************8
I have had to step back from going over and over and over this case -it is too exhausting and frustrating. I’m tapped. Everyone feels at a loss and ready to Kyron to be found, and for those responsible to be brought to justice.
There are two things I am clinging to right now, hoping for swift resolution:
1) The ‘no audio/video allowed’ order for GJ proceedings runs out next week -this, I hope and pray, is a sign that they are soon ready to conclude proceedings, and issue a TRUE BILL.
2) The day that Staton was on the news meeting with the board asking for more money, he said, “…so we can WRAP UP this investigation.” To me, that showed they only needed just a couple hundred grand to get ‘er done…I hope:-)
I sure hope that something gives soon.
Idahog- So glad you got out and enjoyed the nice weather. It is GORGEOUS in Portland today:-)
And all others -appreciate your posts and I hope all of you are having a wonderful day and sending positive vibes out to Kyron and his people.
enumclawrose says:
October 20, 2010 at 4:01 am
“Mockingbirdsings
I am wracking my brains for predicators, just can’t come up with anything.”
It has been very difficult coming up with predictors! This was not a family (blended or not) that would lead one to predict that a member would harm or kidnap or assist in either of another family member.
To me it seemed that the listed predictors were heavily leaning toward predicting that TH was the perp and the only other predictor that I can easily combine with that scenario is that a known opportunity was presented. That opportunity was the Science Fair.
If the abduction was planned by TH or those known by TH and needed to take place in a specified time frame, then a well attended function at the school was the best place. It was before Ky was gone to Medford for the weekend, before the family left for a vacation in Cali and would have occurred in a relatively public place with lots of people and comings and goings. Although on first thought, the abduction of a child from a school function would seem the stupidest move for bad guys, it was, sadly, quite successful.
@puzzled wrote “…In the who the hell knows column is AS-S and why in God’s name is he being released — EVER??? I have no idea why Blink included him in the first place.. his timeline is accounted for except June 24th, the day of the LE sting…”
Are we sure his time is accounted for on the Jun/4?? Was he really locked up? In her previous article Brink’s said “What is known, is that Anselmo Sanchez a/k/a Freddy Atristad Sanchez has been in Federal Custody since March 4, 2010. ***Or has he?***” — http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/09/09/kyron-horman-missing-case-review-and-birthday-wishes-to-the-frog-prince/#comments [*** by me]
The “or has he?” got me thinking. I tried to go out and find the records, but run into pay walls and realized chances were slim for me to place him on Jun/4 given that B already tried. IIRC B also made a comment about probation officers needed to be included in drug testing. Could it be that AS-S was on probation, or out on the road to help LE with another case?
FYI I fully agree .. a 3rd person is missing
@idahogal…Glad to see you came back! I always look forward to your posts!
@puzzled…My “money” is on the mysterious 3rd person, when that person is ID’d then all the pieces will fall in place. Or at least I hope they do.
Thoughts and prayers are with Kyron, his brothers and sister.
@malty
Kyron and Zahara have grabbed my heart and I want them safe..
Shoot,I think all children have the right to love,food,water and a safe place to sleep. Honestly, these kids would have been better off raised by wolves.
@16.puzzled says:
October 20, 2010 at 1:36 pm
Just think about this … every question we had and attempted to answer, LE has had as well and have answered .. the delay in arresting someone isn’t exclusively because they don’t have a body .. it’s because they don’t have a suspect. Everything that can possibly be known about TH and RS is known by LE. If LE was close to an arrest they would not have reorganized into a task force and asked for more $$$. LE may have their working theory and it may cross over into other investigations, but they don’t have the one person who took KY and disposed of him.
We have to think outside the box .. the answer is not in what is known .. the answer is in what is NOT known.
——————————————–
Puzzled..so right. Ok..there are more unknowns than knowns. Let’s start a list of unknowns.
1. Did Ky have Drs. appointment June 4?
2. Was Ky last seen walking toward the South exit?
3. Was Kiara seen in the school with Terri?
4. Is it fact Terri left the school without Ky?
5. Has GK been ruled out?
6.
0oops!
6. Has DDS been ruled out?
7. Has RS been ruled out?
8. Was there a reliable witness(es) who saw someone other than TH near the truck that morning? Was that someone M or F?
9. Does LE have anything other than cell phone pings to indicate TH may have been on the island?
I could list more but have to go fix dinner. Get back to ya!
Idahogal: Glad you’re back, but breaks are good. You know I’d love to be out there in my trenchcoat, but I’d have to make you stay in the car! You have a young one depending on you, so you have to stay safe for that reason if none other.
Me, OTOH, I’m thinking about starting a GraySleuthers group. Those of us with not much left to lose would volunteer our remaining time as a freelance posse. Saddle up those scooters and let’s ride!
What would the police know that they wish they didn’t? Seems to me they would want to know about ANYTHING illegal. Assuming so then they know of something that effects this case the is LEGAL…..but…perhaps unsavory…or immoral….I propose it is something that could effect their ability to get a conviction in a court of law….just enough about one of the people in this sad saga that has suffered loss but is not a suspect…and just enough to cast doubt in the minds of jurors about the actual suspects guilt…hmmmm
Terri (in my opinion) could have absolutely pulled this off all by herself. She could have told Kyron she was going out to the truck. He could go look at the cool electric project and then meet her at the truck. This put him walking out of the school all by himself. He could have been led to believe he was going to a Dr. appointment. Then she could have given him a pop or chocolate milk with something very powerful in it. Probably wouldn’t have to be much (an adult dose) to knock him out. Then she could have gone to Suavie Island and done whatever she did with him.
As far as a time line look no farther than the 2 FM. Skip over the first FM. I think that was bogus. She could have tried to work up her alibi by finding a sales slip at the first FM, getting DeDe to spend a little time with her, the 2nd FM. (her luck, ran into someone she knew), and a very short time at the gym. Not hard at all.
More difficult knowing what her motive was. I think she was just tired and annoyed with Kyron. Period. As I said…this is my theory today. Tomorrow it could be something else.
As far as the other players, this was something stumbled on to while LE was looking for Kyron and just got in the way of the kidnap investigation. Of course…again…my own opinion.
Prayers for Kyron, his brothers and sister and all of us who love him.
Layla I would add this to the unknown list: Do we know for fact that TH and KH lifestyle TOGETHER play no part in what has happened to Kyron?
When all is said and done we really don’t know the answer to this question. KH looks and acts a little strange to me in that first press conference, not as strange as TH acts, but odd just the same.
Please don’t think I’m knockin’ this guy when he’s down, I’m really not….I’m just sayin’ that something is off with this guy. Could be just because he’s the one that brought TH into Kyron’s life…could be because he knows his own actions played a role in this mess…I dunno. I just don’t think it can be ruled out at this point.
IIRC there was a “person” TH couldn’t compete against, we don’t know the identity of that person, we don’t know how serious the relationship was or even IF it was serious.
Just more food for thought I guess.
Thoughts and prayers are with Kyron, his brothers and sister.
30.I Care says:
October 20, 2010 at 8:30 pm
——————————————
I believe this also..Ky left the school GROUNDS with TH. LE is trying to find who she handed him off to. This would fit in with TH’s LDT’s results. She just may have outsmarted LE….and she knows it..so does Mr. Houze. Question; who did she hand him off to? Who’s on LE’s list of possible accomplices if anyone?
I Care says:
October 20, 2010 at 8:30 pm
“Terri (in my opinion) could have absolutely pulled this off all by herself. ”
I totally agree with I Care:
I have believed from the beginning that Terri acted either alone or in concert with one other person, but motivated by her. Anyone who has ingested the obvious amounts of steroids she did would have access to sedatives. It wouldn’t take too much to render a child unconscious. My thinking always comes back to her. She’s angry, unstable, narcississtic, alcoholic (?), full of steroids. All those factors spell out-of-control RAGE. She had the motive, the opportunity and the means. Who else fits that bill? Perhaps the mysterious ransom note was written by her. I wonder if a handwriting analyst has looked at it, if it exists. Handwriting experts are used all the time in court. I have wracked my brain for months and can’t come up with any other scenario that makes a scintilla of sense. I want to absolve her- I don’t like believing that a stepmother is capable of heinous acts, but logic leads me back to her, over and over. I just don’t believe groups of people are generally organized enough to pull off perfect crimes, someone gives a tell sooner or later. The only one looking guilty here is one Terri Moulton Horman. This is moo for what it’s worth.
@lyla … your unanswered questions just add to the confusion about that morning ..
we don’t know where the baby was .. I find it strange that no one saw her at the SF .. but Kaine did say she was with her mother that AM .. and fussy baby was seen with TH at Fred Meyers later .. but no one has said she was seen at the SF .. I don’t want to think that TH left her in the truck while she and Ky went to the SF .. ??
As far as Ky not leaving the school with Terri .. we only have Blink’s word on that .. no idea how or why she knows that tidbit .. Just going on that information led me to change course around TH and her involvement in Ky’s disappearance .. but that’s not something that has been verified by LE .. so one more thing we can’t be sure of!
You raise good questions and they go in the need to know column.
Philomath, OR, in late January, 2010: A registered sex offender, out of prison for 8 months (another state), went through proper sign-in procedure at a high school’s office and then appeared as a guest speaker in an art class. He also told the front office that he was the uncle of a student there. It was only when he offered to give private art lessons to students in his studio, and to arrange transportation for them, that teachers became suspicious and escorted him off campus. And called police.
He might have gotten away with it had he not gone that one step too far (offering the lessons) in his desperation to move things along.
Is that just brazen or what? Complied with all the school’s visitor rules. Makes it so easy to imagine all sorts of folks could’ve been at Skyline on June 4. And to question how fail-safe tighter security will be in the future, especially in larger schools.
“Freshman Ashley ****, who was in the art class, said the man showed some of his work and suggested students add him as a friend on Facebook.
“He was kind of creepy, but people did trust him a lot more than anybody should trust anybody at all ever,” Ashley said.
http://www.kptv.com/education/22355950/detail.html
Emmy that is just what I was picturing minus the twig and one leaf on top! Beejay you are too beautiful to look like that in the morning so don’t even go there! Your posts are a bright spot in the day…when I come here I want and expect to see you! You are a super sleuther and I admire all the hard work you do for Kyron. Oh guys, what do ya’ll think? Will this baby ever be found? Why him? He’s so pure and Angelic. I could see me sitting and just holding him in my lap for hours listening to him and laughing hard at his twisted humor. The Easter basket dump truck upside down on his head got me goooood! Too funny!
There’s a followup to my previous post about the sex offender visiting the art class. He killed himself not long afterwards, but not before sexually assaulting a 16-year old boy. In his stepmother’s home, in Sandy, Oregon, 11 miles southeast of Gresham on Highway 26, Steven Routley shot and killed himself.
“A wanted sex offender ran from police Wednesday prompting a response from SWAT….
Sergeant Kevin Martinez with Oregon’s Lebanon Police Department said the new charges against Routley out of Lebanon were reported to police on Feb. 22 and involved a 16 year old. He said the charges stem from acts within the past two weeks.”
http://www.katu.com/news/85239387.html
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You see, after Routley’s visit to the art class on Jan. 28, Philomath Police sent an officer to talk to Routley. But, although he was registered as a sex offender in Oregon, he was not on supervision and therefore his being at the school did not violate any laws. Ya see??
@beejay said “A registered sex offender, out of prison for 8 months (another state), went through proper sign-in procedure at a high school’s office and then appeared as a guest speaker in an art class”
Some of the public swimming pools in Portland Metro use your drivers license to automatically check against RSO lists. Schools could learn from that.
Idahogal says:
October 20, 2010 at 10:51 am
@Mockingbird- “Nice guy”? I thought you were a gal?! I find it fascinating that one can mentally assign a gender based on words alone.
You were right. I am not a guy. But when you say something like “no more mister nice guy” it just doesn’t come out the same to say “no more mister nice girl” or gal or woman or whatever. A “bad guy” and a “bad girl” aren’t quite the same to me – but maybe it’s my age showing. Anyway, you were right. However, it is a good reminder of how easily we can be fooled online.
Cbickel says:
October 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm
Layla I would add this to the unknown list: Do we know for fact that TH and KH lifestyle TOGETHER play no part in what has happened to Kyron?
When all is said and done we really don’t know the answer to this question.
~~~
Whoa … this is a question I have refrained from asking out of respect for Ky’s parents .. but, it is a question I bet LE has asked and learned the answer to. I said a couple of months ago, would we think differently about this case if we knew as much about the “others” as we think we know about TH?? just asking ..
#34.puzzled says:
October 20, 2010 at 10:22 pm
@lyla … your unanswered questions just add to the confusion about that morning ..
we don’t know where the baby was .. I find it strange that no one saw her at the SF .. but Kaine did say she was with her mother that AM .. and fussy baby was seen with TH at Fred Meyers later .. but no one has said she was seen at the SF .. I don’t want to think that TH left her in the truck while she and Ky went to the SF .. ??
As far as Ky not leaving the school with Terri .. we only have Blink’s word on that .. no idea how or why she knows that tidbit .. Just going on that information led me to change course around TH and her involvement in Ky’s disappearance .. but that’s not something that has been verified by LE .. so one more thing we can’t be sure of!
You raise good questions and they go in the need to know column.
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@puzzled…Terri may have had someone in the truck with her watching Kiara. I cannot imagine her leaving Kiara alone. Also, I’m going by Blink’s remark if she said Ky did not leave the school with Terri. Blink’s comment led me to change course also around TH and her involvement in Ky’s disappearance. But, I believe Terri left school first (alone) then Ky left the school building at Terri’s request to meet in the parking lot for the “supposed” Dr.s appointment. “He left school grounds with someone he knew”. I’m speculating he left the school grounds with TH.
@31.Cbickel says:
October 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm
Layla I would add this to the unknown list: Do we know for fact that TH and KH lifestyle TOGETHER play no part in what has happened to Kyron?
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Re: Kaine, first impressions are important..I feel the same as you regarding the first press conference. I think the lifestyle could come into play. Kaine doesn’t act like he has a clue as to what happened to his son that day nor what his wife has been up to. I sure can’t figure it out and I don’t have to dot the “i’s” and cross the “t’s” which is precisely LE’s job.
We just don’t have all the facts.
Checking in and wondering how KH and DY get up in the morning, much less make it through a single day…I cannot imagine. The thing I keep wondering is what was so special about June 4th that Kyron “had” to disappear that day in particular. In other words, was his disappearance relative to the Science Fair in terms of opportunity or relative to something else upcoming in the Horman or Young households? Was this an abduction waiting for the right opportunity or more spur-of-the-moment? I would think if it were more of a planned event, TH would have a better laid alibi than driving a “sick” Kiara around aimlessly on the day her stepson disappears. The two FMs seem more indicative of afterthought planning/panicked planning to me, particularly when there’s a slew of stores in between that sell children’s cold/allergy/flu/pain reliever meds. The alibi seems lame, weak, and easily disputable. The FM receipt (if there is one) proves little in terms of what occured after the FM store.
In my mind, Terri had likely been bored with Kaine (as seems to be her MO marriage-wise)for awhile. *apologies in advance to excellent stepmoms everywhere* As such, she was far less likely to tolerate Kyron, being that he wasn’t hers biologically. The difference though was Kyron was becoming old enough to sense deception and verbalize it to others (DY, TY, his friends, etc.). I find it very suspicious that according to TH, Kyron was having some behavioral problems at school with authority and receiving behavior warnings. On the other hand, we have DY and KH describing Kyron as rather timid, but no memorable instances of “acting out” at home. Th’s picture and theirs aren’t meshing. TH’s behavior checks and reports to KH and DY that Kyron had behavioral problems cause me to wonder if Kyron’s “problems” were TH-related. Think about it, she went overboard to be HomeRoom Mom of the Year. Judging by her Facebook pics and comments, the only reason she was in Kyron’s world (classroom)was to garner attention for herself. There were very few pics of Kyron, much less Kyron participating in an activity or interacting with his classmates. There were far more of Terri reading or helping and Kiara playing. Frankly, I wouldn’t blame Kyron if he was acting out at school…even there he couldn’t escape Terri. IMO, Kyron had become aware that Terri’s devotion was a self-serving act and he was basically the means to her end. IMO, she was on a crusade to establish her rep as Mother of the Year, Homeroom Mom of the Year, School Resource Person Extraordinaire, and Terrific Teacher (in waiting, unfairly passed over through no fault of her own *sob*). IMO,Terri sent James away because he did love Kaine and was old enough/ smart enough to possibly become a problem (affair-wise, possibly illegal activity-wise, etc.). I think Terri did the SF walkthrough with Kyron to establish his presence there, told him she needed to check on Kiara in the truck, he could quickly go see the cool exhibit, but meet her at the truck out back in 5 minutes to go to the doctor. Just my 2-cents.
Ispy- Both Desiree and Kaine admitted they had recent issues with Kyron in terms of listening/authority at school. In fact, they went on to say they had concern that those very discussions with him may have caused him to leave with someone he would not normally follow (para).
I am not sure if the average person is aware how difficult it is for LE to switch gears when they lock in on a “suspect”.
B
S says: To me it seemed that the listed predictors were heavily leaning toward predicting that TH was the perp and the only other predictor that I can easily combine with that scenario is that a known opportunity was presented. That opportunity was the Science Fair.
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I did not intend the predictors to lean toward TH – any event that might give us a hint or a push in another direction is fine. The hardest part is separating rumor from fact, it seems. For example, the following:
Midwest Mom says:
October 20, 2010 at 2:19 pm
@Mockingbirdsings
I believe one of the predictors prior to June 4th is Kyron was scheduled for visits with DY and TY every other weekend. What weekend those were scheduled? However,when Kaine was asked the question if he knew that Kyron was supposed to be going to Medford on the June 4th he stated no that he did not. This leads me to believe that there was a change from the normal weekend visits.
And I don’t recall it EVER been mentioned if Terri was “in the know” of the visit to medford. anyone???
if not, then that poses a whole new set of questions.
——————
Every other weekend is a common visitation practice but did anyone say that was the agreement for Kyron? I remember hearing that Terri often drove him to Eugene to meet Desiree halfway, because I suggested in a post that perhaps she delivered something else to Eugene as well, and some people said why didn’t Kaine do it. I don’t remember hearing Kaine say he didn’t know about it for June 4th – we did say maybe Kaine came home early for ice cream because Kyron had to go to Eugene, but I think that was a guess.
I suppose I need to go back to the beginning interviews and see what was actually said about the weekend exchanges – anybody have it on your dry erase board at home?
Another thought -
I Care says:
October 20, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Terri (in my opinion) could have absolutely pulled this off all by herself.
familythx says:
October 20, 2010 at 10:19 pm
I Care says:
October 20, 2010 at 8:30 pm
“Terri (in my opinion) could have absolutely pulled this off all by herself. ”
I totally agree with I Care:
I have believed from the beginning that Terri acted either alone or in concert with one other person, but motivated by her.
puzzled says:
October 20, 2010 at 10:22 pm
As far as Ky not leaving the school with Terri .. we only have Blink’s word on that .. no idea how or why she knows that tidbit .. Just going on that information led me to change course around TH and her involvement in Ky’s disappearance .. but that’s not something that has been verified by LE .. so one more thing we can’t be sure of!
————————-
I would like to say that if anyone knows Terri couldn’t have done it because of physical evidence and reliable witnesses, that’s one thing, but if anyone is ruling her out because they just don’t think she is capable of doing such an awful thing, I would put that more in the realm of “wishful thinking”. I am an optimist, I look for good in everyone, but I also know I’m going to find the bad and the ugly some of the time – and that it may have been well hidden.
The other thing that comes to mind…I wonder IF Kyron was having trouble listening to those in authority at school or following directions, were those instances morning or mid-morning events? If TH were medicating Kyron (Allergy meds or otherwise), I’d expect behavioral changes (excitability, hyperactivity, decreased attention span/self-control, irritability/tiredness, etc.)within the first 4 hours of the school day. It would be helpful if KH and DY would specifically detail what the school complaints reportedly were, how often they were occurring, and when they occurred. If the alleged behavioral incidents tended to occur within the last hour of school, I’d suspect a family-situation causing anxiety/stress about going home. JMO
16.puzzled says:
October 20, 2010 at 1:08 pm
“I also think, and we may never know, that Elsy’s disappearance is a piece of one of the scenarios. I don’t think her disappearnce is a coincidence.”
————
I agree. It would help, though, to know whether the other person seen in the truck was a male or female. If TH arranged to have Kyron taken to MX, I think our culprit may be one, or maybe two, of these: Elsy, Dave the GK, or JW. It’s possible TH knew Elsy, possibly through RS&Assoc, if she’s related. Elsy may have wanted her kids back and planned to take them to MX. TH may have seen that as the perfect opportunity to spite KH and frame RS by sending Kyron with Elsy. But, the women also may have had help from one of the men with connections to MX. I believe DDS was also involved in some way because of her going AWOL from her job.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
33.lyla says:
October 20, 2010 at 9:46 pm
30.I Care says:
October 20, 2010 at 8:30 pm
34.familythx says:
October 20, 2010 at 10:19 pm
—————-
My alternate theory is that TH didn’t have an accomplice at the school, but left the building without Kyron. She would’ve told him to meet her at a certain time (when the bell rang?), at the service drive. TH would’ve left the building alone and drove off, then pulled onto the service road. Supposing that she took Kyron home and killed him, I think her only accomplice at that point would be DDS, by helping to bury him on the Horman property. That would explain DDS & TH’s concurrent missing time frame, and the Horman home was close to where DDS was working.
The problem with the 2nd scenario is that it doesn’t account for a 2nd adult in the truck at the school, or Kiara’s whereabouts. I prefer the 1st scenario because it gives hope that Kyron is still alive.
If there was a ransom note, it may have been written by TH’s accomplice/one of her accomplices. Does LE have handwriting samples of all who are potentially involved?
Melissab, I love that photo of Kyron with the dump truck easter basket on his head! Doesn’t that just show his cute little personality? He was one very special child and I would have been delighted to let him come over and hang out with my eight year old son and I making forts or baking cookies. I bet Kyron could have had us in stitches from laughing so hard at his boyish silliness.
There was very much a third, and maybe even a fourth, person knowingly involved in all of this, IMO. Terri could have pulled this off alone, but it’s almost too messy for that to be the case.
Besides, I still see very clearly the older man with messy white/gray hair, dark eyes, slender/smallish, missing teeth (molars maybe), with an old thick brown leather wallet standing on the boat.
I could eventually eat my words but I can’t shake the image. I won’t bring it up again. I really do feel LE has a lot of information and the delay in releasing that info or making arrests is not for lack of knowledge. Lack of evidence? Maybe. Investigation of a secondary case, as Blink mentioned, could also be delaying the release of info related to Kyron, and could be what’s giving Kaine strength, knowing that his son may no longer be with us but also knowing this tragic misfortune could be what brings down something much larger.
I. Can’t. Imagine. says it perfectly. heartbreaking. sweet baby Ky.
BLINK – did my posts go to spam ? TIA
9. riverpearl says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
October 20, 2010 at 2:14 am
-AND-
10. riverpearl says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
October 20, 2010 at 2:45 am
Got Em Riverpearl, thanks for the heads up.
B
@familythx says:
October 20, 2010 at 10:19 pm
I Care says:
October 20, 2010 at 8:30 pm
“Terri (in my opinion) could have absolutely pulled this off all by herself.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I too have believed from the beginning that she did this alone -planned and executed it -and perhaps involved one other person in a panic (DS) -and this is why I spent a lot of time putting together a timeline to illustrate her means and opportunity:
Valhall from thehinkymeter.com published it:
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/kyron-horman-case/timeline/
I have gone round the bend and back and still come back to just what you both say (I care) -she told him to meet her out front to go to doctor, he told his friends he was gong to doctor, went out back, mamma slipped a sedative, -proceeded to establish alibi while leaving him (obedient as he was AND groggy) in the truck. He wasn’t quite, “out”, so went to the second store. She acted moderately normal to AL since she, at this point had only sedated him -not murdered him…Parked far from the entrances so he would not be seen in the back seat of truck… -did whatever she did after 10:10am -then reappeared at 24 Fitness at 11:40 (IIRC) and took it from there.
familythx -I so often agree with your postings it’s not even funny. -NPD =NO DOUBT! I have experience with that personality, and know what lengths they will go to to suit their needs. Manipulation, lies, concealing, ad nauseum…wrapping everyone around the finger, etc. I had a friend who was an effing brain surgeon (for real) who everyone believed was the perfect mother and doctor -but when it came to her, “perceived” injustices -all bets were off, and she did whatever it took to manipulate others into her bizarro-world. The stories she told were so believable, yet, just under the surface =incredulous.
So in short and long, I tend to revert back to occam’s razor-keep it simple, and do believe that she did this on her own. She would have had the ego to believe that she could pull it off -and to some extent, she has been correct. We still have no Kyron. But we will, and the house of cards will shatter around her. MOO MOO. IMO JMHO