West Memphis Three: Damien Echols Jessie Miskelley and Jason Baldwin Released
Jonesboro, AR- In a statement released Thursday, new judge David N. Laser announced an unscheduled hearing in the case of The West Memphis Three.
Damien Echols, Charles “Jason” Baldwin and Jessie Misskelley have been incarcerated for 18 years for the murders of Stevie Branch, Michael Moore, and Chris Byers.
Speaking on the condition of anonymity to www.blinkoncrime.com, a source connected to the West Memphis Police Department has confirmed that Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin have already been released from the Arkansas Department of Corrections; Misskelley has not.
Echols, Baldwin and Misskelley, along with their families, and the families of the victims, are expected to attend today’s hearing.
Check back to www.blinkoncrime.com for this developing story.
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OMG Blink are you saying, in your reply to Dr. Pepper, that LE became so fixed on the knife that they didn’t consider the ice axe to be possibly associated with the crime? And not only that, they released it as an evidence item.
I am saying there is obvious proof they missed the boat in the first investigation and trial, it was never tested as to a possible murder weapon, and the witness accounts as to it’s acquisition and return were never called.
I do not know if it was a prosecutorial strategy, or an egregious oversight. I just know the outcome when I brought it to their attention. They have not told me they do not have it, that is my opinion based on conversations I have had where it is clear to me that they do not.
B
Can we expect Part II soon dear Blink? I check back so often in anticipation that I feel like I have OCD.
I appreciate y’all hanging in, storm based system re-configs, developments in a cold case, whereby I can only work from my cell as my office landline is out still, lol, and Mom duties the week before school, but I am trying.
I am giving her all I gaught Scotty.
B
I am not sure if you have seen this article yet, but it is worth reading though it is quite lengthy:
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2011/aug/28/hollywood-directed-defense-of-three/?partner=yahoo_feeds
“Hollywood director Peter Jackson announced last week he secretly bankrolled much of the investigation — one insider says defense costs might reach $10 million through direct expenditures and in-kind contributions — attacking the state’s case from virtually every angle. They challenged forensic findings and witness statements, uncovered new witnesses and even pointed a finger at a new suspect.”
“The defense rented the former homes of two of the victims’ parents, hiring a forensic scientist to pull up carpets and take apart walls in a search to link them to the murders. It brought in a backhoe to dig up the back yard at one of the homes.”
I have and I agree, it is lengthy, and a must-read. In fact, it was due out a few days ago ( as if I have room to talk) but I did wish to follow it.
They spent millions, they eliminated their two alternative theories, their “alternative suspects”.
Don’t let them fool you, the reason they did not do any ‘Pigsperiments” is because they did not wish to piss off PETA and they were declined from the only folks that a jury would take seriously- you know who I mean everyone.
B
Respectfully submitted, Ellington hits from the chic tee. Seriously.
Well, a little trouble with the warp drive can’t keep a good woman down…Bridge!
Well as Steve Martin would say Excuuuuse Meee-LOL
Considering we are all here – I thought, trying to get to the truth- I do find it necessary to discuss all aspects of this case- all the testimony, all the evidence, everything- who was standing where- the inconsistencies in the statements -the fact that it is clear the mom thought it was nothing more than a bad joke- which I do think she was right.
Yes I DO find it all MOST relevant.
Lets for the hell of it step back and really look at this and what was said -
Damien says it could have happened and if it did, it was said in jest-
Jason said yeah DE said it- it was a joke and it was completely taken out of context-
Picture this- Damien the weird guy, with the black long hair and the focus of rumors, is at the game- he is the subject of more than this group of girls pointing him out and discussing him-
Is it so hard to believe that these little girls went up to him after spending most of the night discussing him and the little boys …and one got up the nerve to ask him if he did it, and he responded exasperated and jokingly and with the intent of scaring them off-
Yeah- I killed those 3 little boys and I am gonna kill two more… (insinuating he meant them … insert evil although joking laughter)and I already have one picked out… ( pointing to the one that asked him the question….insert maniacal joking laughter HAHAHAHA)
I think there is more evidence that he thought he was being clever and solving the problem of a bunch of bothersome preteens hanging around pointing fingers all night by making a stupid and callous remark- which after his arrest became a “confession”
It is more believable to me than a triple murderer leisurely enjoying a public softball game and “confessing his crimes to a bunch of gossipy girls-
I will say that after his arrest- I do believe these girls were scared and believed his jokes- but KIM- Donna is not the only mother that was told and who never contacted police- Christy said she told her mother as well as Katie Hendrix.
-Cartfly I missed it- thanks for the info -If I get a chance I will do that- if I can work up the nerve.
Blink thanks for finding my posts-
TGF thanks for your thoughts-
AJMO
Speaking in code, I have 30 rocks for that idea.
Could I be more jealous right now? What do you want me to do, run downstairs and stand outside like some Italian?
*resist the urge for anyone that is not familiar with this line to think I am being disrespectful to any area of Italia…
B
Mom3.0
Your scene regarding the girls and Damion makes a lot of sense. When a group of middle school girls get into a discussion about something where the community is agast at the evil, one of them is going to say “ok, there he is, I’m going to just go ask him.”
It is quite possible that Damion was “holding court” with some interested listners regarding the crime. He felt important and when the brave child approached him with the question, he decided to really make an impression. However, a mother or father that dismisses such a statement when told of it by thier child, IMO is not paying proper attention.
I want to tell you how much I admire your position of being open to who the perp(s) really are until all information is processed. I see you “walking” around the problem probing and looking for truth from all sides.
Your work is in an area where many find it hard to do.
I have a friend, a retired Catholic priest, who volunteers time once each week at a hospital to help care for all the “Crack” and “Alcoholic” babies born to addict egg doners who bring them into the world. I have seen pictures of these little ones with all sorts of defects, some so severe that they do not survive.
Blink, my August 29, 12:25 comment contains the link. (Here it is again: http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img2/donna_medford_declaration.html )
As for the wider context of the declaration, it was collected by Baldwin’s Defense in an effort to prove that the Echols’s confession is not to be taken seriously (submitted with Baldwin’s 2008 Habeas corpus petition). Which to me, personally, isn’t very convincing, because in the declaration Mrs Medford is merely repeating what she already stated in her testimony and statement, nothing more and nothing less – ie. that, at the time, she didn’t believe that he was being serious. We already knew that (“I told them he was just nuts and to stay away from him.” – Donna Medford in her 1993 statement, http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/donnam.html ).
Mom3.0, I agree with you that the Medfords’ and VanVickle’s statements and testimonies SHOULD be dissected and studied. But, IMO, only for determining the context and Echols’s motivation, not to determine whether the confession (serious or not serious) actually happened.
Which is why I don’t see why the girls getting a bit confused on the stand in answering a few of the Defense questions matters much after Baldwin’s Habeas corpus petition and Echols’s non-denials. The Defense used those questions to try to break the girls on stand and show that they never actually heard Echols. The Defense didn’t succeed, and today we have Baldwin (and kinda-sorta Echols) admitting the confession happened. Further studying of those kind of imperfections in the girls’ statments doesn’t tell us anything about the only remeining question Echols’s motivation and seriousness.
I think Baldwin’s petition, as an in-depth account of what and why Baldwin claims happened at the softball park, is the one that should be studied and its veracity determined.
Okay, stealing from that non-supporter board again, I find this interesting:
” During the oral arguments, the ASSC justice said to Raupp “it’s clear that this particular evidence which IS scientifically conclusive excludes the convicts”
Raupp stuttered and stammered.
He wouldn’t have, had he known that the Defense had already told the jurors at trial that none of the DNA evidence implicated their client, but he clearly didn’t know this.
I know he didn’t, because I asked him.
That’s called cumulative because it simply reiterates evidence presented at trial.
The DNA statute is very clear that any “New” DNA evidence has to be noncummulative – i.e. something the jury wasn’t aware of.
Raupp simply didn’t KNOW the jury was told there was no DNA implicating the convicts, and so he didn’t point this out to the ASSC.
Ask yourself, if a jury is told that there was no DNA evidence implicating the convicts and they convicted anyway – then how the f*** can one say that test results 18 years later which say the same f***ing thing have any effect on the jurors decision?
“ladies and gentlemen of the jury…. there was NO DNA implicating our clients”
We find the defendants guilty
“But wait….. we’ve done more testing, and there was NO DNA implicating our clients”
Oh… well in THAT case…… ”
Now, the “I know he didn’t, because I asked him” part is hearsay, of course, so let’s disregard that part. The rest of this argument is more than enough.
It will be interesting to see what happens with Misskelley going forward.
Is he going to be muzzled? What if he continues to make incriminating statements? Will anyone attempt to interview him in detail? Will the media throw money at any of them for an in depth report on their side of the story? Or did they sign a non-disclosure agreement?
Thank you Mom 3.0, I caught the last part of LP #1 last night and have the second part to record Thursday. I thought it was interesting that as Baldwin and his lawyer were waiting for the verdict, his lawyer asked if he (Baldwin) were on the jury have a hard time letting Damien go. Baldwin replies yeah he would and his lawyer agrees and says me too.
@Lucy…is there another source you have found beside the callahan.8k.com link that you find yourself going back to for information? If not, why do you prefer this site over others? Is it because you find this site backs up what you have deduced thru your own research? I have looked at this site several times and either I’m really not very bright or the site itself is hard to follow.
I know Blink likes that site as well but again I’m not sure why. Maybe it’s just me but I really don’t see anything specific on that site that makes me agree with those that think there was enough evidence, real or circumstancial, to find these guys guilty beyond a resonable doubt.
I’ll keep reading there though, maybe the lightbulb will eventually come on for me. I’m still curious about Fetal Alcohol Syndrome in regards to Jessie Misskelley, I’d sure like to know more about his family, his mother in particular.
Mom…of you find something that gives you an “ah-ha” moment, please share with the rest of us!
cbickel, I find the callaghan site the best source of information because they are reproduced original documents only. Transcripts, etc, they are unalterable as PDF’s and are what was either used at trial or subsequent trials. It is the only source I have found that is including both prosecution and defense docs in their pure form. I completely admit while I use them to back up my findings, they are my findings based on my interpretation of them and how they apply to the current and former Arkansas statute, and of course, public opinion.
B
B
egads….that should have read….Mom…IF you find, not “of” you find.
Lucy says:
August 27, 2011 at 7:57 pm
“The evidence against Hobbs consists of a hair (not conclusively proven to be his, only narrowed down to 1.5% of the population; though IMO it probably is his) on a shoelace (likely his stepson’s, but it being on any of the boys’s sholaces is just as easy to explain). Oh, and a former in-law, who he’s in a feud with, mentioning a decade and a half later that she saw him doing laundry that evening.”
——————
Those are not the only things that make Hobbs look suspicious. He has time unaccounted for during that night. He left Jacoby’s house and was gone for an hour or so. Jacoby is almost positive that Hobbs left his daughter Amanda at Jacoby’s house during the time that he was gone.
Hobbs said he never saw the boys that day, but neighbors who were not questioned at that time have come forward and said that they saw him with all 3 boys that night. David Jacoby also said he saw the three boys behind Hobbs when he first came to his house around 5.
Hobbs said he was out looking for the boys before they were even reported missing. Hobbs says David Jacoby was out looking for the boys with him, but Jacoby says that is not true. Hobbs did not tell Pam Hobbs that the boys were missing until he picked her up from work at 9 pm.
They found Stevie’s pocket knife in with Hobbs’ possessions in his drawer; a knife that Stevie apparently had with him all the time.
He was a known drug user, he had a history of violence (even shot Pam’s brother), and was accused of molesting his own daughter.
I have also read that Hobbs moved out of the house shortly after the murders (??).
The other hair found at the crime scene is similar to that of his friend, David Jacoby, who he was visiting that night, before the murders.
If you ask me, from what I have seen/read so far, they have a hell of a lot more circumstantial evidence, and likely physical evidence, connecting Terry Hobbs to these murders than they do the WM3.
http://www.jivepuppi.com/Terry_Hobbs.html
Terry Hobbs deposition looked at through statement analysis:
http://www.statementanalysis.com/WM3/terry-hobbs-deposition/
The declaration made by Jacoby in 2009:
http://www.refugeesunleashed.net/about22341.html
I don’t think that the new wealthy defense team did any pig experiments from fear of PETA. More than likely someone who knew how tough pigskin is, probably told them it was a bad choice and would not help. Arkansas is loaded with feral pigs and hogs. It would have been simple to trap a few.
The idea of turtles attacking the bodies in search for food is nonsense as well. This little creek may have a few turtles, but I don’t recall that any toes or fingers were reported missing on the autopsy report or that an earlobe or other ear part was damaged or missing. Turtles are going to go after a body part that is easy to shear with their mouth and swallow whole.
Re: Al says:
August 30, 2011 at 8:39 am
It will be interesting to see what happens with Misskelley going forward.
Is he going to be muzzled? What if he continues to make incriminating statements? Will anyone attempt to interview him in detail? Will the media throw money at any of them for an in depth report on their side of the story? Or did they sign a non-disclosure agreement?
*************************************************
I agree. I think the weak link will be Misskelley.
TGF-
Hello-
Thank you very much for reading with an open mind, at least enough to say that my scenario is plausible. I appreciate you taking a look at my different perspectives and weighing them as you see fit.
I agree that the mother should have at least walked over to the policeman there and brought the interaction/S to his attention.
But I honestly think she didnt think much about it-
These girls stayed at the games- some playing, some walking to the concessions, each conversing with other friends teammates ect- at least some of these actions taking place after the 1 supposed interaction with Damien. The interaction was said to have taken place early in the evening before dark.
I believe more than one interaction took place. I think alot of people were talking about the murders and the rumors that night- probably DE and co. too. I think it is likely each of these girls were talking about him and the rumors all night- I think they past by him several times- probably whispering, giggling -ect- trying to be inconspicuous- but not really- hoping he would say something-
As you said- DE might have been aware of them – and others – and perhaps he answered their conversations/questions by loudly telling his friends- watch this- “Yea that I’m going to do it to some more people too.”
Which is what Katie Lafoys statement reads-
DonnaM, the mother, says she does not remember a conversation discussing what was said before the car ride- but Jodees testimony is that not only did she bring up the interaction with her mother, but when she was on her way to tell her- Christy and her sister were already there discussing their own interaction with DE.-
She also testifies that she was alone- but both Christy and the other girls give varying accounts with different girls there, and different people surrounding Damiens group.
Donna in her statement says- (pp)she did not take the interaction seriously- and she goes on to say-”I told them he was crazy and *TO STAY AWAY FROM HIM*.”
But wait, why would she say, *stay away from him* if the first time she was hearing about it was afterthefact in the car leaving?-
She says she didnt know who DE was, but that she immediately knew who they were talking about- because ahem- He stood out as the weird guy with the weird hair.
According to the girls they didnt know who DE was either- so why would she say stay away from him-
If she was worried about him attending another ball game and a further encounter then, why didnt she alert security or police- If she didnt know who he was- and none of them heard the rumors ect- then for all she knew, he was a transient drifter that they would never see again.
She clearly was not worried about the interaction, despite supposedly not knowing who he was- for all she knew he was a pervert come to scope out a girls soft ball game and his next victims.
What I think is supported by each and every one of the girls statements and DM’s is the scenario of these little girls each having heard different statements- each having different encounters spurred on by the rumors- each given by Damien as a bad joke- I think he was, as you said. “Holding court” and he wanted them to leave him alone and so he played the role for them and he tried to scare them off when they finally had enough nerve to ask him.
I dont believe Donna or any of the other mothers that were told even began to think this was anything more than what I described. I do think these girls told DM and possibly there own moms that very night and I think DM said- (PP) he is crazy stay away from him…meaning stop going over there and pestering those teenagers- leave em alone- they are weird.
From Donnas own description- the girls were excited and talking about the events of that night- She does not convey that any of the girls were ever frightened that night- or that she was frightened– in fact she says (as Jessica said she overheard the conversation), that Katie said she yelled out to DE- Did you really kill those kids and He yells back yes-
I think these parents were not concerned until after the arrest- and I think these girls were not really frightened and were gladly spreading the stories of that night- and their encounters with Damien- I think they only became afraid AFTER his arrest when it all became “real” and not just their own stories.
I believe each statement and testimony given, with each contradiction and confusing remembrance is due to the fact that each girl was remembering a different interaction- or had wanted to be part of the events of the night and exaggerated their own encounter with the weird guy. We all know that kids like to one up each other- that night I think Katie Hendrix won with her breast comment-
Cause if the police really wanted to choose a girl that interacted with DE that night that had A frightening story to tell it would have been her-
but NO STATEMENT of Katie hendrix can be found— and She nor Jessica testified nor did Katie Lavoy or Jackie…
…and ofcourse DM did not bring these girls up- as they never testified- infact she never brought Jessica,her daughter up in her statements either- not in the car and not at the game….
AJMO
TGF- thanks for your kind thoughts I have always worked with kids in one way or another- I am not special TGF- The truth is I didnt stay working with kids with special needs or in crisis- It became too much for me- too stressful- i always seemed to be unable to walk out the door and leave my concerns at my job- I was taken it home with me- So you see I am not a saint- I opted for Preschool KDg and 1st graders- clearly a whole different ball game.
Thanks for acknowledging my hope toget to the truth.
It would be so much easier to say yes they are guilty- their guilt or innocence is clouded by mishandling and mistakes and rumors ect. I honestly and truly believe that LE did a horrible job in this case and rumors and fear- made them quicker to see everything as proof of guilt- all witness statements as fact – despite what I believe are very different plausible scenarios for each statement given.
The evidence that was presented IMO was not even close to proving these guys did it- Not reasonably
Damien – and his SBG statements- his clothes- his occult fascination, his lack of a solid alibi- Jason too-I mean what kid knows exactly where they were and what they were doing on any given day? His questionnaire- that was set up to get his opinion on what he thought the killers might think, Jasons too-
I mean heck if LE had come here to BOC people like us would be able to provide them with possible full profiles ect- that does not mean we are talking about ourselves and how we committed the crimes- just that we use our experiences and deductive reasoning to come up with different scenarios- you know? And just because many of us would be able to say- look for someone with problems/concerns w/ mental health – doesnot mean every kid or adult who has a file would automatically become a suspect -
Jason- the knife found behind his house that was most definitely not the murder weapon- the fact that he was with Damien 99% of the time- and wore concert shirts ect- a confession brought to light 6 mnths later supposedly given to a fellow inmate in which Jason said he — drank the blood from body parts that were in his mouth- what 16 yearold is gonna tell any guy- not just a guy he just met that he puts those things in his mouth and that he drank the blood? KIM there was evidence that this “confession” was not by jason but just rumors going around the jail what other evidence was presented at trial against Jason?
Jesse- his confession- his own words that during his trial were completely full of proven non-facts and wrong details- besides his own words what was presented as evidence?
I do not think these guys got a fair trial- for all these reasons and for the fact that there was jury misconduct- Does that mean I know that they arent the murderers? No- but if they are guilty then it should have been proven in a fair trial-they should have received a new trial years ago-
AJMO
@ Mom3.0 says:
August 30, 2011 at 2:08 pm
I’ll tell ya what lil lady….I have immense respect for you. You may not agree with the majority but that isn’t the point. Unlike most who jump on the innocent wagon, you are processing details, information, evidence, etc., and backing your opinions with links and references. Don’t think you aren’t making some of us think! I wish people who are so determined to believe the WM3 are innocent, would back up their reasons with FACTS! (by facts I mean not repeating what they’ve heard by slanted sources). Most are buying into the ‘slant’ without ever having laid their eyes on pertinent info. We all know you do your homework.
I hope you’re still feeling the love <3
Al and Essay Kaye, Misskelley is definitely the weak link in this, but I don’t think he’s going to talk about the case anymore, now that they’re out and the pressure he was feeling is gone. And now that he’s had 18 years to come to terms with what he did, and the immediate remorse he (alone out of the 3 murderers) felt has probably (just speculating here) at least somewhat subsided. My main concern about Misskelley’s future at the moment is him living with his girlfriend’s (fiancee’s) 2 children.
As for Echols’s future, the wm3truth blog has a new post up reminding people of Echols’s self-diagnosis (“homicidal”) 3 months before the crime.
http://wm3truth.com/2011/08/damien-echols-self-diagnosis/
http://callahan.8k.com/images/500/1/125.jpg
I know all of us who’ve read Exhibit 500 are already familiar with this, but it just got me thinking, again – how insanely dangerous is it that this guy has been released with no condition demanding treatment and medication?! I’m glad that his own son is grown now, and not helpless at his hands. Small consolation, though.
cbickel, I see Blink has already already given her perspective on this, but I’ll also put in my 2 cents. The Callahan archive is one of the only non-partisan, completely non-biased sources on the internet, when it comes to this case. It is a huge, thorough archive where almost everything on the case can be found, without editing or opinions. Just the facts. There are other quality sites that have good info and stick to the facts, but Callahan’s is without doubt the ultimate source on the WM3 case. It’s actually maintained by a WM3 supporter, if I’m not mistaken. But it’s considered THE site on this case by everyone – supporters, non-supporters and fence-sitters alike.
“But wait, why would she say, *stay away from him* if the first time she was hearing about it was afterthefact in the car leaving?-”
They all lived in the same town, and not a big one either. Why wouldn’t she tell them to stay away from him? There was a decent chance they could cross paths with him again.
“because ahem- He stood out as the weird guy with the weird hair.”
He stood out that night at the softball game. Neither metalheads nor, say, goths are known for being huge softball fans and attending teen girls’ softball games regularly. Echols and Baldwin were probably only there because Baldwin’s girlfriend Heather Cliett had a game that night. Also, it would’ve been very easy for Donna Medford to remember Echols, since he came in right behind her. In any case, Echols standing out at the game still doesn’t mean that, when it came to hair and attire, he stood out among all the kids and young adults in the entire town. Not sure if that’s what you’re implying by the “ahem”, sorry if I’m completely off-mark.
“From Donnas own description- the girls were excited and talking about the events of that night”
It doesn’t mean they were excited in a good way. “Excited” doesn’t always mean the same thing, the meaning depends on the context.
“and I think these girls were not really frightened and were gladly spreading the stories of that night- and their encounters with Damien- I think they only became afraid AFTER his arrest when it all became “real” and not just their own stories.”
Well, for what it’s worth, Christy VanVickle testified on stand that she was frightened.
ATG~ I just wanted to point out that there WAS in fact damage to all 3 boy’s ears. (and lip’s as well) This info can be found @ the
Callahan site in the testimomy of Frank Peretti.
Xara, in varying degrees of severity, correct.
B
@ Lucy says:
August 30, 2011 at 4:08 pm
-snipped-
I know all of us who’ve read Exhibit 500 are already familiar with this, but it just got me thinking, again – how insanely dangerous is it that this guy has been released with no condition demanding treatment and medication?!
I have that exact concern. Regardless of ‘differences of opinions’, he was and is a very sick individual. There’s no indication he was receiving therapy, treatment or taking meds. I KNOW for a fact that untreated mental illness worsens. How, depends on the type of illness and the person. My uncle is bi-polar. He hasn’t take his meds for years. He’s now becoming paranoid, dillusional and aggressive. He is in complete denial. As my cousin put it, the man I knew as my uncle, no longer exists.
That being said, I hope authorities keep a watch on all 3. None of them are well. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if Echols attempts suicide.
Mom3.0
I can understand that you could not continue to work with these damaged little ones. I love children, but dealing with these special needs on a daily basis is too stressful for me.
One of the middle schools where I taught music had about a dozen children in a special room that were so damaged they could not be allowed in a regular classroom. I came to know the woman who cared for them as well as the woman who was in charge of all the programs. They worked this area for years. We had several discussions about their work.
Now, in regards to whether or not Misskelly or any of the others could tell you what they did and where they were on a previous day. I don’t find that to be unusual as far as their telling the truth. Childen and young people today are so untruthful in general that they will tell a real adult whatever they think is acceptable. Thank GOD this is not true of all. Yes, I used the word real as a modifier to adult in the previous sentence for a reason. IMO we have many who are in their twenties or more in our society that are not yet adults.
Mothers and fathers that really pay attention to their little ones are challenged to keep peer pressure from affecting truthful behavior.
I know Misskelly and Echols were known to have some mental issues. Did these issues affect their short term memory? We don’t have any real evidence of that.
If I can sit a this computer and visualize installing a shortwave radio antenna on top of our one story house at age nine, I would think that most could remember yesterday or several days previous.
Lucy- as you have read- I disagree with you again, I know big surprise LOL- this time on the ability to get to the truth by taking a harder look at these statements/testimony ect- as you have read- I think there are other reasonable explanations other than DE confessing guilt.
I appreciate you challenging my thoughts-as best as you can- it makes me see if there are any possible holes in my logic.
The testimony and statements which I have supplied in full- show that Donna SAID that she did not know him and according to the testimony of the girls during trial which I also brought over, they SAID they did not know who he was.
I agree this was probably not true- just as I believe the 2 girls testimony and statements omitting what I believe happened: they were buzzing around Damien all night and I think point blank asking him if he did it- as Christy included in her statement- “He wasnt talking to me” well as we all know- in a confession or statement- persons often give clues to the truth by giving extra unneeded details- I believe this is what that statement was- a denial of the truth that DE was in fact talking directly to her- because she had been talking directly to him- or directly to the person with her.
The fact that katie hendrix’s statement was not taken and the fact that LE and the prosecution never brought in any of the other girls is a big red flag to me.
It IS a small town, but again, since they did not know him, how was Donna to know he was part of the small town? And if she did know him- until he was arrested she certainly did not fear him or think he capable of murder or biting her nieces breasts off.
I think she too, decided to omit certain details from her statements like the fact that Jessica was present and that the girls told her about the interactions throughout the night- and that she, DM may have overheard the exchange and as a grown-up realized then what was actually happening- the big weird teenager which the girls probably, clued her into some of the rumors at that time did not give her pause. She believed He was teasing the pesky girls… as Jessica said in her statement-at least one exchange took place within earshot- and all were talking loud enough to be heard from her and her mothers seats..
To over generalize and say that persons who wear concert tees and all black, ( regardless whether or not a label is put upon them of a metalhead or goth or emo or whatever)-to say they do not go to baseball games regularly is just an opinion- Thats the same as saying they dont date girls who play softball- which by your statement Jason did- or they dont go to church are arent religious- which these kids were and did, and dressed in the same manner I might add. Or Saying these types cant hold jobs as teachers or accountants ect- which I know, you know -just isnt true.
It seems that DE and JB by that point, June 1st, had become the center of rumors circulating- and they stood out because they were being pointed out. IMO these girls were determined to interact with the weird guy who was at the center of so much gossip at that point.
He had become somewhat of a celebrity they knew of him, right?
So my point is when you take a closer look at each statement and all testimony given- or not given- a clearer picture starts to emerge.
And to me it is not one of a murderer “confessing” his crime to a bunch or girls or screaming out things loud enough to be heard by all- or threatening bodily harm in a public place and “confessing” his plans to kill 2 more and going further and admitting that he already had one picked out…
No, to me- all of these statements and all of the testimony surrounding this SBG “confession” seems to be nothing more than- a Stupid insensitive guy- razzing a bunch of preteen girls.
It is also clear to me by the statemnets given- that these girls were not frightened but excited- excited to be together and talking about the events of the evening- and clearly DM was not frightened and did not convey any distress from the group in her statement- She did not call police and she did not take it any further- and then only later decided to go to the manager of the club- not LE- KIM only after DE had been arrested.
Ragdoll- thank you for taking the time to read my posts and for acknowledging the hard work that goes into trying to figure this out- I am still not swayed to either camp but I am working to uncover the truth as close as I am able- I so appreciate your kindness- I feel the love my friend
cbickel- I will let you know if I have any aha moments
CJinTx- youre welcome- when I watch I will be sure to look for that exchange.
AJMO
ps Lucy yes Christy said that in her statement and in her testimony youre right – her mother who she says she told didnt seem to think about it too much- and she knows her daughter right? her mom never called LE right? She also testified that a policeman was there- if she was frightened AND actually believed what was said why didnt she run immediately over to the police officer- I think her fear grew as more and more rumors were spread and as time went by- same as the mom and the other girls- Remember she nor the others didnt give their statements to later AFTER DE was arrested- well heck- id be frightened too at that point- according to the news this guy was the killer and they had talked to him- I am sure they were having nightmares about him- just like so many others in the town-
BTW as you pointed out Christy is one of 2 that testified- so could it be she that Ellington was referring to in his statement?
I just want to tell you that I was very impressed with your appearance on the Dana Pretzer show. It was great to hear someone tell the truth about this case instead of the same old regurgitated nonsense that the West Memphis 3 were targeted because they were outsiders.
I am really looking forward to the next part.
I am so unbelievable sickened by their release. Thank you for reporting the truth about this case.
TY.
B
You know I’ve got somebody else I can’t let go of. What about Mr. Bojangles? I don’t think he killed the boys, from what I can tell he wasn’t all “together” when the cops were called.
What “if” Mr. Bojangles came across the bodies of the 3 little boys, let’s say he was high or drunk even…the sight alone might be enough to make him stumble and fall into the bodies and get blood on his person. I would think that would make him even more confused and disoriented than he already was and would/could be the reason he seemed so out of it at the restaurant.
It just seems to coincidental that this man surfaced the same nite the boys disappeared and in the condition he was in and he not have something to do with this case. (Witness or something along those lines)
I think this is a real possibility, I also see what Mom is saying about Echol’s “confession” at the ball park. It’s like the perfect setting for the storm from hell.
Lucy…I did see that the Callahan site was maintained by a supporter of WM3 and I also found something on a pro WM3 that explained why the site can be so confusing.
What I’m looking at now is a site, I’m referring to the Callahan site, that has been added to over time making it much easier for those that have been following the case and/or site, to be able to digest this information in a more leisurely fashion as compared to someone like myself who is trying to gather all she can at once. The site is overwhelming at first for newbies to it like me…but I’m workin’ on it!
Blink…thank you for your explanation as to why you prefer the Callahan site as well, I appreciate the time and effort it took to respond to me. I keep going back to what your mentor said about a case that starts “effed” up. It would be nice if LE could have a “do-over” on this knowing then what they do now.
Thanks Exra for the heads up on the testimony. I will find it and read it.
“To over generalize and say that persons who wear concert tees and all black, ( regardless whether or not a label is put upon them of a metalhead or goth or emo or whatever)-to say they do not go to baseball games regularly is just an opinion-”
Of course, it is. I thought that was fairly clear from my comment. It’s just my observation from life experience. But yes, I do think it’s fairly obvious that the percentage of late-teen/young adult male goths, or metalheads, interested in preteen girls’ softball games is not all that high. I’m sure there might be some who are huge fans, though. One should never apply anything to ALL members of a group, but SOME patterns across groups ARE visible.
“Thats the same as… Saying these types cant hold jobs as teachers or accountants ect- which I know, you know -just isnt true”
I don’t see how this is the same, or comparable, at all. One is about interests (and often street cred and/or reputation),and the other is about capability.
“Thats the same as saying they dont date girls who play softball- which by your statement Jason did”
Most 16-year-old boys will date whoever they can get. Just another observation from life experience.
“It IS a small town, but again, since they did not know him, how was Donna to know he was part of the small town?”
When someone shows up at a schoolgirls’ softball game in your small town, it’s a fair bet they’re probably local.
Also, I know we’ve agreed to disagree on this particular aspect of the discussion, but I just want to bring up one single point here:
“And just because many of us would be able to say- look for someone with problems/concerns w/ mental health – doesnot mean every kid or adult who has a file would automatically become a suspect”
In Echols, we don’t just have a guy with a file. We have a guy who voluntarily describes himself as “homicidal”. To the government, no less.
@Cbickel
“What “if” Mr. Bojangles came across the bodies of the 3 little boys, let’s say he was high or drunk even…the sight alone might be enough to make him stumble and fall into the bodies and get blood on his person.”
And then submerge them in the water to wash off any DNA he might’ve left on the bodies? I don’t find it very likely, but I guess it’s possible.
“It just seems to coincidental that this man surfaced the same nite the boys disappeared and in the condition he was in and he not have something to do with this case. (Witness or something along those lines)”
Not really. West Memphis is at the crossroads of 2 interstates. There’s a lot of transients passing through it. And it’s a low-income area with a lot of shady characters – an unrelated fight/shooting/stabbing occurring on the night of the murders isn’t really all that strange.
“His questionnaire- that was set up to get his opinion on what he thought the killers might think, Jasons too-
I mean heck if LE had come here to BOC people like us would be able to provide them with possible full profiles ect- that does not mean we are talking about ourselves and how we committed the crimes- just that we use our experiences and deductive reasoning to come up with different scenarios- you know?”
Well, Echols’s answers to those questions match up well with Misskelley’s confessions. 1.) The murderer would call out to the boys to come into the woods 2.) The boys would be easy to control (Misskelley says the boys were easy to control 3.) The boys would scream
Of course, those are all still pretty vague, and, on their own, not evidence of anything. But still, the very fact that Echols felt the need to answer the questions in such a…detailed manner.. is strange. When you add the random (well, only random if one assumes he didn’t kill them) comments such as the one about the murderer enjoying the children’s screams, and the already-discussed Aleister Crowley-like comment (“the younger the victim is…”). That’s not just strange, that’s suspicious.
“Those are not the only things that make Hobbs look suspicious. He has time unaccounted for during that night.”
He has 10 minutes unaccounted for here, 15 minutes there. While it would’ve been possible to commit the murders in 15 min, he’d have to run straight back and, straight after the murders, face the other parents and the police, all without time to shower and without changing his clothes. And still, neither the other parents, nor Jacoby, nor the police noticed anything suspicious about him.
“Hobbs said he never saw the boys that day, but neighbors who were not questioned at that time have come forward and said that they saw him with all 3 boys that night.”
Those neighbors shot themselves in the foot when one of them said she mentioned this sighting to Chris Byers’s brother, Ryan Clark, the next day in school. Ryan Clark didn’t go to school on May 6. I was actually surprised by how stupidly they destroyed their credibility with that unnecessary comment. These witnesses’ statements also contradict with statements of witnesses who actually talked to the police back in 1993.
Besides, even without the lying and the contradictions, how much stock can one put into neighbors coming forward 17 years later, after WM3 supporters had started shoveling money and energy into accusing Terry Hobbs? Why didn’t they ever mention this to the police, or anyone, before? Not that it matters, since they ruined whatever they were doing with their claim about Ryan Clark. Or maybe the Ballards didn’t have any ulterior motives and were just affected by all the anti-Hobbs propaganda post 2007, and thoroughly confused? Who knows. But one thing that’s certain is that they have no credibility as witnesses.
David Jacoby also said he saw the three boys behind Hobbs when he first came to his house around 5.
“Pam Hobbs that the boys were missing until he picked her up from work at 9 pm.”
I’ve never found this suspicious at all. At the beginning, they all thought they were going to find the boys alive and well. Nobody could’ve known how serious the situation would turn out to be. It’s not weird at all that he might not want to cause worry and distress to his wife at work, where she couldn’t do anything about finding them anyway. Instead, he and the others searched for the boys, in the belief they’d find them. He probably hoped Stevie would be home by the time Mrs Hobbs was done with work.
Unfortunately, Miss Hobbs, the former Mrs. Hobbs and her sister, have all had legal entanglements over the years following this crime. The only parents that have not, are Todd and Diana Moore.
B
Mom3.0,
I appreciate your passion. You’ve obviously done your homework and have thought it all through.
As I stated in another thread, I’m aquaintances with one of the “girls” who testified against Echols. She was just a kid who didn’t ask to hear what she heard. The events of that night and subsequently testifying have haunted her all these years. The haunting just increased 10-fold. She knows what she heard. No amount of picking testimony apart will erase her memory.
I didn’t grow up in Arkansas. I moved to West Memphis some years ago and have met some of the people involved in different aspects of this case. A majority of people in Crittenden County firmly believe that justice for Stevie, Chris, and Michael…and that it’s abruptly been “un-served.” Most of the people I’ve talked to are irate at the deal that was cut, while some are confused.
My perspective of this case changed drastically when I moved here. My perception became clearer when I met some of the major players on both sides of this tragedy. I drive past those woods every day. There is a palpable unease in the air. Some people are seriously afraid that someone else is going to die because these 3 have been released.
One more thing about Crittenden County residents: most seem to want to mind their own business and not get involved. It’s not surprising to me that neither Mrs.Medford nor Mrs.Vanvickle wanted their daughters involved. I can see how the parents would doubt the validity of some pre-teen girls account of the events at the Girls Club ball field. These are hard-working middle class families who just want to handle their affairs and stay out of other people’s lives. Ultimately, I believe their consciences won out and they went to the authorities.
My intent is not to sway anyone. My perspective is just that; my own…but it’s been heavily influenced by personal relationships with people involved.
FWIW, I’m not sure that this has been mentioned…but Mike Allen (who slipped down the bank into the water, discovering the first body) is now Sheriff of Crittenden County. Shamefully, he’s been painted as some bumbling, hayseed oaf. Most people around here would tell you a different story.
Have a nice day.
Xara
I did find the testimony of the medical examiner Dr. Frank Peretti.
As a reference look at the photos of the boys included in this piece by Blink.
Chris Byers- ears are medium size and extend from the head only a small amount.
Michael Moore-ears are medium size and are more extended from the head than Chriss Byers.
Steve Branch- medium size and well extended from the head.
I believe from the testimony of Dr. Peretti that each of the boys were caught and then punched in the mouth by their assailant multiple times until they were unconscious. Then the boys were striped of their clothing and hog tied with the shoe laces. The punches by a bare fist would split the lip tissue ,as was found, when it was forced violently into the teeth. This would also explain the bruising inside the mouth. A bare fist from someone who is twice your size and probably three times the strength of the boys can do a lot of damage.
I don’t know if you ever watched boxing matches. Most times there are some type of compression cuts to the boxers around the eyes, ears and nose. This could be the very cause of some of the cuts. They are called cuts, but the skin is compressed from force and splits from the force of the blow.
When the boys regained conciousness, they were forced onto their knees by grabbing the ears and twisting them. There was no evidence of semen inside the mouth, but that doesn’t mean that they were not forced to perform oral sex. The ear twisting could have produced some breaks in the tissue. Finger nails can cause cuts and rips to the tender ear tissue.
At some point, each of the boys were hit with an instrument. In going through the testimony of the Dr., I was prviledged to know about the ice axe that the doctor did not. I also knew of its shape and the handle thanks to Blink and the research some of us did.
Based on the doctors testimony and description of the wounds, IMO the only instrument used was the ice axe. Each boy was beaten to death by using different parts of the axe. This explains the skull fractures and at the base of the skull and the depression in the top of the head to one of the boys that was round in shape.
The doctor, in his testimony, referred many times to a bell shaped wound. The hole in the head of the axe used to attach the wrist lanyard would produce such a wound. The sharp saw in one end of the axe would produce the cuts to the leg and genital areas.
I do believe the 3″ fracture produced at the base of the skull, and subsequent patterned injury under his right scapula was from that of a boot, similar to a combat boot pattern.
B
Sorry for the gap between comments, I lost this entire comment and had to rewrite it all.
“He was a known drug user, he had a history of violence (even shot Pam’s brother)”
All of this is true. Like JM Byers, Hobbs doesn’t have a stellar past.
“and was accused of molesting his own daughter.”
I’ve never seen Amanda Hobbs accusing him of it herself. There’s been a lot of gossip about it spread by JM Byers, who is an obvious case of an opportunistic attention-seeker with no concept of ethics. And who was also no doubt greatly relieved about supporters pointing the finger of blame at Hobbs and away from him. There have also been allegations of this from some of Pam’s family, who are in a feud with Hobbs and, unsurprisingly, are especially not fond of him after their brother’s death. Amanda Hobbs herself has denied any abuse ever happened. For what it’s worth she’s lived on and off with her father in the last few years. I’m not saying Hobbs didn’t molest his daughter. He sexually assaulted a 50-year-old woman in his youth (entered her bathroom and touched her breast as she was getting out of the shower). I’m just saying we definitely don’t know it to be a fact (not that you were implying we did, mjh, I just wanted to clarify the situation for those not familiar with it)
“They found Stevie’s pocket knife in with Hobbs’ possessions in his drawer; a knife that Stevie apparently had with him all the time.”
I can see how this looks suspicious, mostly because Hobbs first denied having it, then siad he probably took it because he didn’t want an 8-year-old running around with a knife. But I can believe that it happened that way, and was a small enough issue for Hobbs not to remember it well/at all.
“The other hair found at the crime scene is similar to that of his friend, David Jacoby, who he was visiting that night, before the murders.”
As I said, it can only be narrowed down to 7% of the population, AND was collected from a nearby tree stump and not the bodies or the clothes, AND was collected 2 weeks after the murder. That’s pretty weak. Also, in checking Hobbs’s whereabouts, I came across a theory that I hadn’t thought about before. Since Jacoby was in the woods that night searching for the boys, IF that was indeed his hair, maye that might have been how it got there. (Remember, it was dark and the bodies were already in the water by that time.) I’m just throwing this out there, because I haven’t actually checked with maps and photos whether it’s possible according to what Jacoby said: “I searched near the woods by the apartments and stood near or on the pipe bridge into the woods. However, I did not cross the pipe bridge into the woods. I also drove around to the Blue Beacon side of the woods and looked in the weeds around the woods. I made it far enough into the woods to see the pipe bridge from that side.” (this statement is buried somewhere in here, but I can’t find the exact page: http://callahan.8k.com/hobbs_pasdar/hp_38/hp_38_4.pdf ). If it doesn’t check out completely, the hair possibly could’ve been moved somewhat by the winds in the following 2 weeks? Again, this is just a theory I read, I have no idea if it’s actually plausible.
“David Jacoby also said he saw the three boys behind Hobbs when he first came to his house around 5.”
This is the only one I find actually suspicious. On the other hand, Jacoby WAS recalling stuff from 15 years ago. It’s possible memories from other days got mixed up in his head with events from May 5. He saw Hobbs regularly at the time, and he probably saw Stevie playing outside with his friends on a fairly regular basis.
Bringing up Hobbs’s whereabouts and alibi again, here’s a Hobbs timeline someone put together at one of the many WM3 message boards:
http://westmemphishomicidesdiscussion.yuku.com/topic/5661
It’s a bit confusingly written and not easy to follow, but it shows any windows of opportunity Hobbs had were very small. It starts with establishing the boys were last seen alive in the 6.30-6.45 period, and from there looks into whether Hobbs could’ve committed the murders after that time.
….Lucy “Not really. West Memphis is at the crossroads of 2 interstates. There’s a lot of transients passing through it. And it’s a low-income area with a lot of shady characters – an unrelated fight/shooting/stabbing occurring on the night of the murders isn’t really all that strange.”
I live on the outskirts of a city that is literally cris-crossed with interstates and it is a river town to boot. We get alot of transients as well. I still think it more than odd that what appears to be a homeless man stumbles into a Bojangles covered in blood on the same nite as kids are reported missing.
As you said, it’s a small town…it should have been picked up on immediately and deserved much more than just passing thru the drive-thru.
Lucy says:
August 30, 2011 at 11:09 pm
I am thinking that the boys were killed someplace else then dumped (I hate that expression) into the creek, submerged or what have you later. I don’t think Mr Bojangles moved them, I think he stumbled upon the killing ground, maybe even fell on or over the boys and ran like a jack rabbit to get outta there.
One thing is for certain, nobody will ever know if Mr. Bojangles had any evidence on his person or if he did or did not have any knowledge of the three victims deaths…sloppy work.
“As you said, it’s a small town…it should have been picked up on immediately and deserved much more than just passing thru the drive-thru.”
Oh, I definitely agree on this one. I criticized Regina Meeks for not entering Bojangles in one of my previous comments here. But I’ve read someone, on one of the boards, pointing out that, at the time, nobody could predict what had happened to the boys (and thus think of Mr Bojangles as possibly connected). Add to that that Officer Meeks was looking for a sick, bleeding man whose life might’ve been in danger, and since he’d already left Bojangles, and it makes sense that she would not to enter the establishment but instead continue looking for him before he bled out somewhere. But, the police going back to Bojangles later with the same footwear they had on at the crime scene and losing the blood samples is inexcusable.
Sorry for all the typos and the mangled sentences! Forgot to proofread that one, hope it still makes sense!
I think it is very unlikely the boys were killed someplace else and then dumped. The reason is, this is the exact area where they were last seen, and as a result was also the area where searches were taking place. Why would a killer dump them back at the same spot they were abducted from while searches were underway? That’s way too risky. Especially when you have been dumping spots like the Mississippi river nearby.
Also, there were luminol reactions at the crime scene.
Additionally, Jessie Misskelley confessed numerous times, and described this location as the crime scene. In his “bible” confession, which he made to his own attorney, Jessie described the route he took to the scene, the pipe bridge, and other such features at the scene.
* also, forgot to say: in addition to wanting to find Mr Bojangles, Officer Meeks was also in a hurry to get back to searching for the boys
I feel they are comparable- in the sense that IMO all are over-generalizations and narrow-minded.
Street creds?-
Reputation?
They werent in a gang
You will never find two kids and certainly not “metalheads” alike- because MH’s all refuse to be placed in an easily definable box- they pride themselves on being free thinkers and nonconformists- They like what they like- whether it be SBG or band- they dont care about reputations or what anybody thinks- their friends and peers accept them for who they are – and wouldnt give one hoop or holler if they chose to hang out at SBG or were members of drama club or chess club- or if they were dropouts or were straight A students- or if they dated a rocker chick or a VIP Soft ball player.
16 year olds certainly do date whomever they see fit- boys and girls- that would include MH’s right? That was my point. Your thoughts seem to be they would care about street creds and reputations- well these kids seem to be the exceptions to your life experiences. Who would have thunk it possible? LOL
The questionnaire matches up-
1 The killer/s called to the boys?
Well- in most abductions of children their kidnappers/molesters and killers do call out to them- that is not a big aha moment for me-
2 the boys would be easy to control-
well again – they were innocent small, trusting 8 year old kids who were scared for themselves and their friends- Tell a kid to behave or their friend will get cut or threaten them with a knife and a punch – they will pretty much have no other choice but to be submissive- add to that a lie that if they are good you will let them and their friends go- chances are they will be submissive. Again even though these scenarios are beyond hard to describe- they are not a big deviation from most horrors stories we have heard in the news- My gosh- Look at Elisabeth Smart and Jacee Lee Dugard they were hurt beyond belief and subjected to our worst nightmares- each little girl was too scared and traumatized to not listen to their kidnappers directives.
3- The boys would scream- Yes they would- God rest their souls…. and the sicko who made them scream would enjoy it- that, as horrible as it is- is the truth.
Aleister C- thoughts on sacrificing a young victim are not new to him- Throughout history it is a well know belief of many different peoples that the best and most “powerful” sacrifice was that of a child- especially a firstborn male child – so no, I certainly do not think his less then novel ideas- equate to a suspicion of DE or JB or JM being a misguided follower-
These murders were not ritualistic sacrifices in any way- despite what the prosecution presented- there is no evidence of that in the slightest- full moon or no full moon-
Lucy- thanks for countering my thoughts again- it helps to weigh the different perspectives ect-
MJH- thanks for that info- I am still catching up on the facts of this case- and havent even began to delve into things like that. So I appreciate your sharing.
xara- thanks for sharing that info- very interesting.
TGF- thanks for giving your perspectives as always very thought provoking- Thanks too for your kindness and sharing your own experiences with kids and the experiences of your friends with me
cbickel- I think it is certainly possible JM suffered from FAS- but without a diagnosis it is hard to know- BTW Jesse was JR- because he was named for his dad- Jesse SR-
Thanks to everyone else for sharing the links and your thoughts – each of us are adding much needed info and perspectives to the discussion I think. So thanks
AJMO
Blink
The boot theory about the skull fracture is certainly possible. A pair of heavy engineers boots, lace-up combat type boots or a steel toed work boot could do that type of damage.
In fact, one of my engineers who worked both in the office and out in the field was accosted in a parking lot by a thief with a knife. He stomped the thief so bad with his engineers boots that the guy spent four weeks in a hospital prior to going to jail.
At this point, I do not believe that the injuries to the boys were caused by anything other than an evil human weilding the ice axe, using their fists and possibly using a heavy boot.
This was a a case where LE were in way over their training and capability. They left enough holes to drive a whole batallion of tanks through. Their first step after finding the bodies should have been to make an immediate call to the state police for people with the proper training and experience.
Dear Julio,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me/us and for doing so in such a kind way.
I think it takes great courage to be somewhat of an insider, and come here to share your thoughts. Just as I think it took courage for the girls to testify.
I am sure none of these girls or their parents wanted to be in this situation.
I am not saying that Damien didnt say those things- all I am saying is that I do not believe it was a confession–
They were just kids and certainly would not want to come to a realization that a misunderstanding of what they heard, may have led to their testimony or statements- but based on the statements/testimony ect I think it is at least possible that this is exactly what happened.
I would not want to be in their place then, or now. In fact the truth is I do not think the prosecution should have ever subjected these kids to testifying at all- if their case wasnt strong enough without these girls testimony – then LE should have looked harder and longer for some stronger evidence- instead of calling the case on a scale of 1-10 an 11
Julio- I think LE failed to do what was best for these girls and for the town. I do hope that they received help in dealing with the aftermath of the trial and their nightmares of what they heard. As well as help with dealing with the 3′s release-
Julio- I do not blame anyone for being afraid- then or now. I blame LE for trumping up the fear with lies of devilworship, esbats, and human sacrifice.
Again I do not know if these 3 were innocent or guilty- IMO there is reasonable doubt – and that is not these little girls fault- the case should have never rested on their shoulders.
Peace and Thankyou
AJMO
“I feel they are comparable- in the sense that IMO all are over-generalizations and narrow-minded”
I don’t see how. As a kinda-sorta punk who participates in folklore groups, I often surprise people by my presence there, and my enthusiasm for it. They’re not shocked, but they’re still mildly surprised. I do stick out there, and I’d wager people who see us perform find me relatively memorable (especially in the past when the side of my head was shaved). That doesn’t mean people are narrow-minded, just that they’re not blind to their life experience.
“Street creds?-
Reputation?
They werent in a gang”
Alternative cred, to phrase it better. It’s not exactly an obscure concept, in sociology or everyday life. All sorts (though not all, ofc) of “alternative”-identified folks care (to varying degrees) about it, especially when they’re younger, but many later in life too. With metalheads, this will also have more of a “street cred” and/or macho edge to it than, say, with hipsters or the indie crowd.
Also, most teenage boys, whatever their subculture or lack thereof, care a great deal about reputation. Again, just an observation.
“because MH’s all refuse to be placed in an easily definable box- they pride themselves on being free thinkers and nonconformists- They like what they like- whether it be SBG or band- they dont care about reputations or what anybody thinks- their friends and peers accept them for who they are – and wouldnt give one hoop or holler if they chose to hang out at SBG or were members of drama club or chess club- or if they were dropouts or were straight A students- or if they dated a rocker chick or a VIP Soft ball player.”
In my opinion, this is completely wrong, start to finish. Alternative subcultures are most often just as restrictive as the mainstream, just in different ways (often connected to the concept of “alternative cred” and/or being cool or edgy). I’ve alwas found the whole spiel about the freedom and individuality subcultures supposedly offer funny (and sometimes even a bit sad). All subcultures have social codes of their own. Just like with the mainstream, certain people will deviate from them in certain ways, and some of their peers will give them a hard time about it and some won’t care. There are exceptions of course, and some subcultural groupings do provide a greater deal of freedom than the mainstream. Such groupings are few and far in between, though, and run-of-the-mill teenaged metalheads aren’t among them.
“16 year olds certainly do date whomever they see fit- boys and girls- that would include MH’s right? That was my point.”
My point was that if they only come to a schoolgirl softball game when they’re dating one of the girls (which, yes, is just an assumption), that would still mean they’ll be less frequent visitors than the mainstream crowd who visits for a variety of reasons. All assumptions and speculation, extrapolated from life experience, of course. Not facts.
“Your thoughts seem to be they would care about street creds and reputations- well these kids seem to be the exceptions to your life experiences.”
I see no proof of them being an exception to what I’ve described. Not that I’m not open to it.
“Who would have thunk it possible? LOL”
Lots of things are possible. Some are just more likely than others. We’re all speculating here, as soon as we move away from the cold, hard facts of the case.
“Aleister C- thoughts on sacrificing a young victim are not new to him- Throughout history it is a well know belief of many different peoples that the best and most “powerful” sacrifice was that of a child- especially a firstborn male child – so no, I certainly do not think his less then novel ideas- equate to a suspicion of DE or JB or JM being a misguided follower”
Don’t know about “misguided”, but there’s no need to suspect Echols was a follower. We know he was.
“Don’t know about “misguided”, but there’s no need to suspect Echols was a follower. We know he was.”
But, of course, that (Aleister C.) is the discussion we’ve already had and agreed to disagree, so no need to restart it. I probably shouldn’t have mentioned it. Agree with you about weighing different perspectives.