West Memphis Three: Damien Echols Jessie Miskelley and Jason Baldwin Released
Jonesboro, AR- In a statement released Thursday, new judge David N. Laser announced an unscheduled hearing in the case of The West Memphis Three.
Damien Echols, Charles “Jason” Baldwin and Jessie Misskelley have been incarcerated for 18 years for the murders of Stevie Branch, Michael Moore, and Chris Byers.
Speaking on the condition of anonymity to www.blinkoncrime.com, a source connected to the West Memphis Police Department has confirmed that Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin have already been released from the Arkansas Department of Corrections; Misskelley has not.
Echols, Baldwin and Misskelley, along with their families, and the families of the victims, are expected to attend today’s hearing.
Check back to www.blinkoncrime.com for this developing story.
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Lucy says:
August 30, 2011 at 11:34 pm
“He has 10 minutes unaccounted for here, 15 minutes there.”
From all accounts I have read, it appears to me that TH had an hour or possibly longer. He left Jacoby’s house around 6-6:30 alone, and did not come back until around 7-7:30. He did not meet up with Byers and the other parents until 8 or so.
————————-
“Those neighbors shot themselves in the foot when one of them said she mentioned this sighting to Chris Byers’s brother, Ryan Clark, the next day in school. Ryan Clark didn’t go to school on May 6. I was actually surprised by how stupidly they destroyed their credibility with that unnecessary comment. These witnesses’ statements also contradict with statements of witnesses who actually talked to the police back in 1993.”
So, everyone else can be *mistaken* on the exact details, but these witnesses cannot? Maybe they mentioned it to Ryan Clark a few days afterward, and just remember it as being the next day.
————————-
“Besides, even without the lying and the contradictions, how much stock can one put into neighbors coming forward 17 years later, after WM3 supporters had started shoveling money and energy into accusing Terry Hobbs? Why didn’t they ever mention this to the police, or anyone, before?”
Unfortunately, Police did not question them before, as they should have. How would they know that Terry denied seeing the boys that day if they were not part of the investigation? They wouldn’t. It is quite possible that they did mention it to others at the time.
————————————
“ But one thing that’s certain is that they have no credibility as witnesses.”
I’m sorry, but there are *witnesses* who have admitted that they lied during their testimonies. That one kid from the jail lied through his teeth on the stand, and they KNEW he was lying, and put him up there anyway. So, their witnesses were obviously not credible as witnesses.
————————————
“I’ve never found this suspicious at all. At the beginning, they all thought they were going to find the boys alive and well. Nobody could’ve known how serious the situation would turn out to be. It’s not weird at all that he might not want to cause worry and distress to his wife at work, where she couldn’t do anything about finding them anyway. Instead, he and the others searched for the boys, in the belief they’d find them. He probably hoped Stevie would be home by the time Mrs Hobbs was done with work.”
If my 8 yr old son is supposed to be home, and he doesn’t show up, and my husband is looking for him for a few hours and can’t find him….it’s getting dark and they file a police report at 7 or 8 pm that he and two other boys are missing, my husband better damn well call me at work and let me know. THIS does not make sense to me at all.
———————————–
Lucy says:
August 31, 2011 at 12:54 am
“All of this is true. Like JM Byers, Hobbs doesn’t have a stellar past.”
Exactly, and if we are looking for someone with a questionable past and a violent history, why wouldn’t we be looking at Hobbs? It’s OK to look into Damien’s past and try to use it against him, but not OK to look into Hobbs?
———————————-
“I’ve never seen Amanda Hobbs accusing him of it herself.”
“ I’m just saying we definitely don’t know it to be a fact (not that you were implying we did, mjh, I just wanted to clarify the situation for those not familiar with it)”
She was only 4 when she mentioned what he did to her. And, from her writings, it seems she is a pretty messed up kid, and definitely shows signs of a child that has been sexually abused. Unfortunately, she has supposedly been molested by others too, so it’s hard to say. I have my own personal opinion on this, but since it is only my opinion, and I do not have facts, I will not go into it.
———————————
(“They found Stevie’s pocket knife in with Hobbs’ possessions in his drawer; a knife that Stevie apparently had with him all the time.”)
“I can see how this looks suspicious, mostly because Hobbs first denied having it, then siad he probably took it because he didn’t want an 8-year-old running around with a knife. But I can believe that it happened that way, and was a small enough issue for Hobbs not to remember it well/at all.”
For me, this is not even close to a *small* issue. Murderers keep things, Stevie always had the knife with him, Hobbs denied having it. He later decided, when it was proven that it was Stevie’s knife, that he must have taken it from him because he was too young.
————————————–
(“The other hair found at the crime scene is similar to that of his friend, David Jacoby, who he was visiting that night, before the murders.”)
“As I said, it can only be narrowed down to 7% of the population, AND was collected from a nearby tree stump and not the bodies or the clothes, AND was collected 2 weeks after the murder. That’s pretty weak. Also, in checking Hobbs’s whereabouts, I came across a theory that I hadn’t thought about before. Since Jacoby was in the woods that night searching for the boys, IF that was indeed his hair, maye that might have been how it got there. (Remember, it was dark and the bodies were already in the water by that time.) I’m just throwing this out there, because I haven’t actually checked with maps and photos whether it’s possible according to what Jacoby said: “I searched near the woods by the apartments and stood near or on the pipe bridge into the woods. However, I did not cross the pipe bridge into the woods. I also drove around to the Blue Beacon side of the woods and looked in the weeds around the woods. I made it far enough into the woods to see the pipe bridge from that side.” (this statement is buried somewhere in here, but I can’t find the exact page: http://callahan.8k.com/hobbs_pasdar/hp_38/hp_38_4.pdf ). If it doesn’t check out completely, the hair possibly could’ve been moved somewhat by the winds in the following 2 weeks? Again, this is just a theory I read, I have no idea if it’s actually plausible.”
It is my understanding that Jacoby did not go into the woods to search. So, his hair just blew in the wind to the area where the children were found? Damien had long hair. Through all of that activity, his hair ended up nowhere at the scene?
——————————————
(“David Jacoby also said he saw the three boys behind Hobbs when he first came to his house around 5.”)
“This is the only one I find actually suspicious. On the other hand, Jacoby WAS recalling stuff from 15 years ago. It’s possible memories from other days got mixed up in his head with events from May 5. He saw Hobbs regularly at the time, and he probably saw Stevie playing outside with his friends on a fairly regular basis.”
This is actually the only one I don’t find suspicious, because, as you said, he may have gotten the day confused with another.
I have many problems with Hobbs. I personally have not been able to rule him out, in my mind, as the perpetrator of this crime.
I am awaiting the rest of Blink’s findings, as perhaps she knows something that I don’t know, which might change this. (she usually does)
I still can’t believe that they did not take the sticks that held the clothes in the water. Those sticks could have had DNA on them….they were obviously held by the perpetrator. I have also read that there was sperm DNA found on clothing at the site. Where the heck did that go?
This case is so frustrating….
jessie’s confession has lexicon’s that we were wishin c*words story had.am i right, that in the confession,he talks about echols lickin jason’s blood ,after a fight, a “while back” and then turns out that it was “that day , at the scene of this crime” ,did i read that right? cuz if so, means to say ,when he says they cut off part of the dog and had to eat some of the meat ,he is therefore talking about what was also going on ,bank side may 5th,robinhood hills. i hope you understand, i am trying to be unoffensive.
mjh
You mention that LE did not take the sticks used to hold the clothing under water as a mistake. We can only read what is found on the Callihan.8k site to try to put together a scene at the crime site.
A real experienced investigative team with crime scene technicians would more than likely found much more than was found by LE. As I previously stated, LE did not have the skills to handle a crime of this magnatude.
The photos of the crime scene were so poorly thought out that they were difficult to follow. The questions posed to most who were interrogated were beginner type questions. There was no plan or seemed to be no plan to ask a series of questions that would attack a subject in a way that truth might be found.
LE personnel have to be trained for all of that. To Some it comes naturally and they can do a very good job. Someone posted previously that one of the officers in this case is now the county sherrif. Does that make him a good investigator or just a good politician?
I don’t find Terry Hobbs any where near as disturbed and frightening as Byers. Byers’ violent history is quite a bit longer than is that of Hobbs, as is his criminal record which contains everything from drug trafficking to threatening the lives of his parents, with a knife by the way, back when he was but 17, to beating a neighbor’s child well enough to have bruised him. The boy’s parents believed Byers to be threat enough to have obtained a restraining order against him; and if that’s not troubling enough, there’s still the matter of the unresolved death of his wife, which is in fact suspicious!
Certainly some pretty horrendous accusations have been made against Hobbs. He’s been accused of sexually assaulting his daughter, among other things, though she adamantly and tearfully denies any such assault ever happened. I have a tendency to believe her over her vindictive mother, or any relative of her mother’s whose minds are inflicted with bias. Does the name Roy Kronk come to play upon anyone else’s mind, here, or is it just mine?
Truth be told, Byers had as much opportunity as Hobbs, as every moment, contrary to whatever opinion, is not so well accounted for. Per witness testimony Byers didn’t stay at the courthouse with Ryan, who had to be there at 4:00, but left him there, saying he was going to go pick up his wife from work in Memphis (which is 3.5 miles away, by the way) and go look for Chris, in order to beat the tar out of him again (motive, which Hobbs didn’t have) and for what? Which is it? For leaving a toy on the stairs, or for breaking into the house through the window, or for stealing food – a two dollar bag of candy that belonged to Ryan – or what? Which is it? It’s even said in one of this statements that Chris never got inside the house due to a planter and the fact that he wasn’t strong enough to get the window open, and if that’s the case, how could he have left a toy on the stairs or taken candy that didn’t belong to him, or broken the window he wasn’t able to climb in through?
Also, what of the knife, you know the one, the Kershaw or whatever the hell it was that Byers insisted he’d not ever used, not ever never, and for the most part because it had a serrated blade that he found near useless. That knife, of which he said was kept in a drawer that no one ever touched until he became suspicious of Glitchell and Ridge’s line of questioning (see http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmb2.html) regarding the knife and changed his story not once but two, three times within the same interview, saying at first that he may have used it, but wasn’t sure, to trip his fingernails when he first got it. Fingernails don’t bleed, so he no doubt believed he was home free until it was mentioned that there was blood on the knife, then all of a sudden he remembers that he cut deer meat with it? This knife that he swore had not ever been used?
Speaking of knives, how is it that before the bodies of the boys were found Byers made mention of not having a “piece” of a knife or any other such tool that could have been used in the commission of the murder, and what of the fact that contrary to what he’s said Byers was NOT with Ryan and Ryan’s friends searching the woods that night. He was ALONE for quite some time, in the dark, and without a flashlight after having gone home to change into coveralls and BOOTS (there ya go Blink and ATG)! But then he was alone too between dropping Ryan off at the courthouse and going to pick up his wife. He’d even told a friend who was at the courthouse that he was going to go look for Chris and when he found him ….
Having read and watched everything Byers has ever had to say on the matter, for many endless days and sleepless nights now I stand by the statement previously made about Byers making so much noise as to be distracting! Sometimes the most difficult item to find is that which rests right before our eyes.
I’ll post the timeline I’ve compiled along with links as soon as I get it all organized. I don’t know how you do it Blink, I’ve got paper and notes scattered from one end of the office to the other!
Trim, not trip his nails. ugh.
@ mjh
“From all accounts I have read, it appears to me that TH had an hour or possibly longer. He left Jacoby’s house around 6-6:30 alone, and did not come back until around 7-7:30. He did not meet up with Byers and the other parents until 8 or so.”
Well, the “countdown” to see whether he could’ve done it only starts at 6.30, at the earliest. And Dana Moore had first been to Hobbs’s house and then afterwards taken Hobbs and Amanda to her house where they waited for Michael to come home – all before 7.30 (at the latest).
http://westmemphishomicidesdiscussion.yuku.com/topic/5661
Please tell me if there’s something wrong with the times I gave above, or the info from the link. Before the Alford Plea, I hadn’t been following the case as closely for a time, I can be fuzzy on the exact details.
“Exactly, and if we are looking for someone with a questionable past and a violent history, why wouldn’t we be looking at Hobbs? It’s OK to look into Damien’s past and try to use it against him, but not OK to look into Hobbs?”
Not all sorts of violence are the same, and not all fit an unusual crime like this one. But I see nothing wrong with looking into Hobbs’s past. It’s just that Hobbs was simply not considered suspicious in this case because he was seen throughout the evening by the other parents and the police, wearing the SAME CLOTHES, without anybody noticing anything off about him.
“So, everyone else can be *mistaken* on the exact details, but these witnesses cannot? Maybe they mentioned it to Ryan Clark a few days afterward, and just remember it as being the next day.”
Well, being mistaken as to which of your friends you could see from the concession stand while hearing a confession, and where and how far exactly those friends were standing, is quite a bit different from being mistaken about talking with the victim’s brother the day after the murders. The latter, IMO, indicates a far greater degree of confusion. So great that it puts their credibility in serious question, if it doesn’t destroy it completely. Even if their intentions are good, and they’re just confused about the exact dates, that’s still a problem, since the exact date is the very thing that their affidavits are all about. If they saw the boys with Hobbs on another date, then it just doesn’t matter. It HAS to be that exact date.
The witness in question also says that she walked from school with Ryan Clark, and that JM Byers then told Ryan to go look for Chris. Ryan Clark had court that day, and JM Byers took him there as soon as he got home from school. So, yet another contradiction. IF the Ballards are telling the truth, their memories are mixed up, and they just don’t seem to be talking about that date. I’d still be interested to hear what Ryan Clark has to say about the Ballards’ claims.
“I’m sorry, but there are *witnesses* who have admitted that they lied during their testimonies. That one kid from the jail lied through his teeth on the stand, and they KNEW he was lying, and put him up there anyway. So, their witnesses were obviously not credible as witnesses.”
Wait, which kid from the jail? Are you referring to Michael Carson? It has never been established that he lied. Not even close. He had absolutely nothing to gain from lying. He was out already, wasn’t interested in the spotlight, and reaffirmed his story in December 1996. The counselor’s statement was an unconvincing mess, and his creepy letter to Jason Baldwin was… well, creepy. The bizarre Johnny Preston letter, which was never even proven to be authentic, is not even worth mentioning.
“If my 8 yr old son is supposed to be home, and he doesn’t show up, and my husband is looking for him for a few hours and can’t find him….it’s getting dark and they file a police report at 7 or 8 pm that he and two other boys are missing, my husband better damn well call me at work and let me know. THIS does not make sense to me at all.”
Police were notified at 8pm, not 7pm. The Hobbs residence didn’t have a phone, so he couldn’t have notified Pam from their house. And he was busy searching. Pam and Terry then called the police from her workplace, and a policeman arrived there at 9.25. Now, some people might’ve, in Hobbs’s situation, called their wife from somebody else’s house, but everyone is different. Realistically, what good would stopping the search to call Pam do? It would only slow the search down, and make a helpless Pam freak out with worry. Maybe Hobbs made a lousy decision, but I don’t see why it’s so unfathomable that he wouldn’t call her. Remember, she already knew Stevie was late, he had missed dinner.
——— ——— ——— ——— ———
“She was only 4 when she mentioned what he did to her.”
As I said, we don’t know that to be a fact. Not that I’m discounting the possibility.
“And, from her writings, it seems she is a pretty messed up kid, and definitely shows signs of a child that has been sexually abused. Unfortunately, she has supposedly been molested by others too, so it’s hard to say.”
I’m sure growing up in an unstable home, with feuding parents, following the violent murder of your brother, is not easy. Sexual abuse doesn’t really have to factor in it. Miss Hobbs has also been sexually assaulted, and was a drug addict (I’m not sure how she is doing now, I hope she is well).
“I have my own personal opinion on this, but since it is only my opinion, and I do not have facts, I will not go into it.”
I don’t have an opinion on this, since I really don’t know enough. And I’m fine with not knowing, I don’t really feel it’s my business. So, I agree, it’s better not to go into this.
——— ——— ——— ——— ———
“It is my understanding that Jacoby did not go into the woods to search. So, his hair just blew in the wind to the area where the children were found?”
Well, this is what he said: “I searched near the woods by the apartments and stood near or on the pipe bridge into the woods. However, I did not cross the pipe bridge into the woods. I also drove around to the Blue Beacon side of the woods and looked in the weeds around the woods. I made it far enough INTO THE WOODS to see the pipe bridge from that side.”
So he DID enter the woods, but, yeah, looking at the map, I agree, it’s a stretch.
——— ——— ——— ——— ———
“I have also read that there was sperm DNA found on clothing at the site. Where the heck did that go?”
They did test this. There were possible traces of sperm on one of the boys’ pants. The stain did show a chemical reaction (not sure which test it was, I’m no good at chemistry) indicating it could be sperm. But there wasn’t enough of it to determine with any certainty whether it actually was sperm or not.
——— ——— ——— ——— ———
“Damien had long hair. Through all of that activity, his hair ended up nowhere at the scene?”
Well, whoever committed the murders, didn’t leave much behind. If you go with the Hobbs theory, then he only left one hair. Not much of a difference between one and none, really. Besides, I think it’s how much hair you’ve got that matters, not how long it is. Anyway, what I’m interested in are the hairs found at the scene which neither match the WM3 nor Hobbs and Jacoby.
I just finished watching PL2…wow. Talk about being confused! I noticed Dan Stidham discussing Chris Beyers medical/behaviour history. Is that information factual and was that shared in court? Are Chris’ medical records a matter of public record? Are they in the Callahan 500? (I’m only on page 20 of that)
I keep hearing about cold hard facts and honestly I’m not sure what that’s in reference to. I know Damien had some mental health issues, then again he was a teenager and his parents were divorced. Along with some serious allegations of sexual abuse by his step-father it’s not hard to imagine he wouldn’t have some issues.
It appears he was addressing those issues or at least making an attempt to.
Blink how much weight does circumstancial evidence hold when it goes to jury in a case like this? Can the jury weigh mistakes by LE along with the circumstancial evidence? How was this addressed to the jury? Is all that information on that Callahan 500 page?
So many questions…
The appearance issue interests me a great deal.
It is right, imo, to not judge a book by it’s cover. In essence, it’s how it should be….in a perfect world. Sometimes, you just have to (satelites). People who do dress ‘out there’ are making a statement. Depends on who you are and how you think. I personal see it as a form of self expression. My father in law would see DE’s image as a no good hooligan. My late mother in law would see it as…to each his own, but it’s not an easy road. My husband sees it from a professional perspective…that kid will not go anywhere unless he cleans it up. My point is, what is right and how it is are 2 different things.
A couple weeks ago, my city held a ‘slut walk’. For those who haven’t heard of it, it’s basically a movement to support women’s rights, especially those who choose to dress provocatively. Hey, I think it’s great. Women need to empower themselves. We need to change our thinking and tolerance ideals. If a woman dresses as a slut, it doesn’t make her a slut. I’m all for individuality and self expression. However, someone who fantasizes about raping a woman sees it much differently. There. Are. Consequences. It is a risk. You will have an audience and unfortunately, there are pigs all around us. Some will ALWAYS perceive it as ‘asking for it’. A woman should be able to walk (theoretically) naked, on a street, without feeling fear of being a target. That’s not the reality. She’s endangering herself because we don’t live in a world where it’s safe for a woman to walk naked on the street.
Going back to high school, I remember a couple of school mates who dressed gothic like. Black was their swag. They were average kids. They never caused trouble. For the most part, they were left alone, but you’d never see them mix and mingle. They never attempted to make friends outside their claustrophobic circle. They were never on the school football team or participated in ‘graduation’. They were loners. They dressed as loners and, again, right or wrong, that’s the statement they were sending out….’I want to be left alone!!!!’ A person needs to possess a LOT of confidence and sense of self to wear something that draws mostly negative attention to themselves, but most do not. DE is NOT a person who can brush off personal attacks easily or readily. Yet, he continued to dress as such. He made the choice to dress like a satan worshipper, so, he was perceived as one. His mental instability and criminal history, along with his dark behaviour didn’t help much, either. If we were to put the whole ‘judging his appearance’ aside, DE’s criminal history and suspicious activities alone made him a suspect. In this case, it’s not rocket science. He needed to be checked out. LE did their job. They needed to eliminate him as a suspect. They had to weigh in everything they knew about him b/c of how he looked and how he lived.
I’m not the best parent, but I had great parents. I will always remember my daddy’s advice….if you have self respect, dress like someone with self respect. Otherwise, suck it up if you’re judged for dressing like a punk.
Finally..yes, finally! I would question my son’s friendship with someone who dressed like DE. I would want to know what he’s like, his REASON for the look, what draws my son to him, does he have the qualities my son looks for in a good friend….etc. I would question it until it’s proven this person is not a threat to my son, my family, or my community.
I’m not sure why my 8.09 pm comment is still in moderation? It’s just a continuation of the 8.01 one.
@Morgan
“Per witness testimony Byers didn’t stay at the courthouse with Ryan, who had to be there at 4:00, but left him there, saying he was going to go pick up his wife from work in Memphis (which is 3.5 miles away, by the way) and go look for Chris, in order to beat the tar out of him again (motive, which Hobbs didn’t have)”
Yes, but he was back at court at 5.30 to pick Ryan up. Straight after court he and Ryan returned home, where Melissa Byers was. After discussing Chris being missing, Melissa and Mark Byers went driving and looking for Chris. At 7.30, while driving, they talked about the disappearance with a police officer. The officer told them to wait till 8 o’clock. They went back home, and called the police at 8. Since we know the boys were last seen alive at 6.30 (at the earliest, possibly 6.45), I just can’t see where Byers has time unaccounted for that he could’ve used to commit the murders?
Great points Ragdoll. We can imagine an ideal world and strive to achieve it but it’s careless and often dangerous to assume it. A person, male or female, should use common sense in anything they do. People dress provocatively because they want attention and others to desire them. They should remember that some people, especially men, tend to take what they want, or scheme to get it in whichever way they can. We are still animals with some pretty primitive instincts. These instincts are filtered by a veneer of social development. If that veneer never develops, as in a sociopath, or breaks down, a person acts on those primitive instincts. Heck, watch what happens during a power blackout in a major city or during riots such as those in London.
Google “Farmville Virginia Murders” to see a case of acting out gone horribly wrong. A young rebellious teenage daughter into goth and Horror Music invited a troubled young man from California into her home. It was allowed by her separated parents but when the relationship soured the guy used a wood splitting maul to murder his ‘girlfriend’, both parents, and another teenage guest who was visiting.
The father was a minister and the mother was a professor at Longwood College so this was a case of professional parents making judgement calls in order to salvage a relationship with their daughter.
A Texas Grandfather says:
August 31, 2011 at 7:24 pm
“A real experienced investigative team with crime scene technicians would more than likely found much more than was found by LE. As I previously stated, LE did not have the skills to handle a crime of this magnatude.
The photos of the crime scene were so poorly thought out that they were difficult to follow. The questions posed to most who were interrogated were beginner type questions. There was no plan or seemed to be no plan to ask a series of questions that would attack a subject in a way that truth might be found.
LE personnel have to be trained for all of that. To Some it comes naturally and they can do a very good job. Someone posted previously that one of the officers in this case is now the county sherrif. Does that make him a good investigator or just a good politician?”
Hi ATG,
I agree with you, they should have called in more experienced people in a case of this magnitude. But, even I would know to take those sticks into evidence.
I also believe that the way they interrogated people was not done right at all. Victoria Hutcheson later admitted that she lied on the stand. She says that the officer would turn the tape on and off, tell her what he wanted to hear, and then, when she got the story straight, he would turn the tape back on. I personally believe that this is true. It seems this was their method of doing things, and I believe this is how they got Jesse’s confession too. Of course, this is just my opinion.
Victoria’s later statement:
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/vicki_h_exhibit_c.html
It is clear that things were not done right from the beginning.
Lucy says:
August 31, 2011 at 8:01 pm
@ mjh
“Wait, which kid from the jail? Are you referring to Michael Carson? It has never been established that he lied. Not even close. He had absolutely nothing to gain from lying. He was out already, wasn’t interested in the spotlight, and reaffirmed his story in December 1996. The counselor’s statement was an unconvincing mess, and his creepy letter to Jason Baldwin was… well, creepy. The bizarre Johnny Preston letter, which was never even proven to be authentic, is not even worth mentioning”
Lucy, I don’t understand why it is so easy for you to disregard one person so easily (ie: the counselor/Danny Williams), but quickly defend another (Michael Carson).
Statement of Danny Williams:
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/dannyw.html
I was not even aware of the Johnny Preston letter. Are you saying that the Johnny Preston letter was written by Danny Williams? How do you know this?
I base my belief that Michael Carson was lying on two things:
One: the counselor came forward when he heard what Michael was going to testify to, before the trial, and he tried to tell them that he, himself, had given Michael information specifically about the case.
Two: I watched him testify on the stand and I did not believe one word that came out of his mouth.
I believe he wanted the attention and that he was possibly trying to get on the good side of LE, since he had been in so much trouble. I don’t believe he did this out of the goodness of his heart, as he tried to portray.
Jason Baldwin never confessed to this crime to anyone. Why would he suddenly confess to some kid he didn’t even know? He wouldn’t.
Is it my opinion that Michael Carson was lying? Yes. And, I probably should have stated it as such in my previous post.
I also completely agree with the following excerpt:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0804/S00202.htm
Monday, 14 April 2008, 4:22 pm
Column: Gordon Campbell
Should we be skeptical? Yes. To quote from Echols’ legal brief of last October, taped conversations between jailhouse cellmates are the only reliable form of such evidence, for obvious reasons. “[But] when such a informant comes forward after a deluge of publicity concerning a notorious crime; when he claims to have heard a confession in jail by an accused whom the informant just met; when that defendant has confessed to no one else; when the informant failed to report the confession until months later; and when everything the informant claims to have learned from the accused has been reported in the media, that testimony is inherently unworthy of belief
mjh- how do you account for the fact that Carson passed a polygraph that Baldwin confessed to him?
B
Ragdoll
Your father was a wise parent. He knew that allowing an undeveloped mind free reign without constraints of good social responsibilities would lead to trouble. He did not want you to fall into such a trap.
The age of permissivness that has pervaded our society since the 1960′s has created most of our problems. Some people think that everyone should be able to do whatever they want in the name of freedom. Nothing is farther from the truth.
Freedom of action and expression stops where your freedom begins to impinge on that of another. This is why society has developed rules of proper behavior over time (centuries).
Young people and children have not lived long enough to understand the responsibilities of real freedom. A five or six year old can be taught proper behavior. However, if parents and the community do not recognize that unlicensed behavior in the young lead to a non-functional society or a dangerous society, that is what will occur.
Al’s example of what happened in the “Farmville Virginia Murders” is exactly what happens when parents do not take responsibility for their childrens behavior. Both parents were professionals with good or at least better than average education. However, IMO neither had the guts to put a stop to bad and dangerous behavior of their child.
“Lucy, I don’t understand why it is so easy for you to disregard one person so easily (ie: the counselor/Danny Williams), but quickly defend another (Michael Carson).”
Because Williams’s statement was a mess. He couldn’t even “remember” what he supposedly told Carson. He was stuttering and saying “I don’t know” left and right. And to me, his letter to Baldwin is creepy and suspicious. That’s just an opinion, of course, though I’ve seen a number of other non-supporters share it as well.
“I was not even aware of the Johnny Preston letter. Are you saying that the Johnny Preston letter was written by Danny Williams? How do you know this?”
No, I’m not saying that. The letter was presented by Gail Grinnel, Jason Baldwin’s mother. It has been speculated that it was forged, by Grinnel or other family members or friends of Baldwin and Grinnel. Since it was never proven to be authentic, I don’t find it relevant, If it actually had been authentic, why didn’t Baldwin’s defense even attempt to prove its authenticity, let alone achieve proving it?
mjh- how do you account for the fact that Carson passed a polygraph that Baldwin confessed to him?
B
In my opinion, it would depend on who is performing the polygraph. Also, I feel that if someone is used to lying all the time, it is easy for them to believe their own lies, and possibly state them as truth. Carson was being basically truthful, in that someone told him this information. However, I don’t believe it was Jason Baldwin who told him.
Just as in the polygraph that Jessie supposedly failed. I find the following very interesting, if it is true:
Holmes, Warren D.
Former member of the Miami PD with over 39 years experience as a homicide detective and polygraph examiner at the time of the trials. Has extensive polygraph experience, including JFK assassination, Boston strangler case, ML King’s assassination and Watergate. Found that Misskelley was deceptive ONLY on the question concerning drug use and did not know anything about the murders, despite the WMPD polygraph examiner claiming otherwise. Said that detectives should have administered a confirming polygraph and taken Jessie to the crime scene – they did neither. As polygraphs are not admissable in court, his testimony was severely limited.
http://westmemphisthreediscussion.yuku.com/topic/890/Who-s-Who-in-the-WM3-Case
Also, of all the things Jason could have told him about the murders, if he was present, I don’t think sucking on little boys penises (sorry) is something he would have told another guy, especially one he barely knew.
“Jason Baldwin never confessed to this crime to anyone. Why would he suddenly confess to some kid he didn’t even know? He wouldn’t.”
What about Susan Atkins?
On another note, yesterday a WM3 supporter board was fervently discussing what Blink has written about this case. Well, I suppose they still are discussing it, but the thread is locked to non-members now. There was a lot of bile and baseless accusations, but, taking all the insults out of it, the gist of their objections seems to be: the Roadrunner Petro bag can’t be tied to Echols in any way, because it’s a grocery store and most people in West Memphis would’ve probably had some Roadrunner Petro bags in their homes. I have no idea how true this assertion about the ubiquity of Roadrunner Petro bags in the area is. Another argument is that there’s no explanation for the clothes in the bag, which were not Echols’s size.
They did point out something that I do believe is a mistake in Blink’s account of the case – Damien didn’t point out Jason to the police. The Jason Baldwin he mentioned to the police was Big Jason Baldwin – Jason Howard Baldwin – not the Charles Jason Baldwin of the WM3.
Blink- Hi I am missing a post from yesterday- Can you see it?
If not its okay- it was just more of my ramblings.
Blink- IRT any polygraph tests- I have seen you write, in different cases, that there is a reason why polygraphs are not used in courts of law- because they are unreliable- and that many factors play into this- the expertize and training of the examiner- the subjects own personality ect- and also medications ect. Although, IIRC- you have said they can be and effective tool- in forwarding an investigation. Have you change your thoughts on any of this?
ok, so I am not sure of the glitch, but I just looked at back, and apparently, your not alone. We have just installed some new razz matazzy hardware here, and I think it zigged when it should have zagged.
Pardons-
B
oops- just remembered the lost post was to Julio- and it wasnt just ramblings, but a heartfelt- post thanking him for sharing his thoughts ect.
Thanks Julio- I appreciate everything you wrote.
ATG, regarding the Farmville murders, I am in agreement. Parents reach a point where they become enablers. It happens throughout society. Just look at the behavior of some of the spoiled Hollywood brats for proof of that.
The West Memphis Police should definitely have called in more expertise the moment these boys were found. In today’s environment not doing so jeopardizes every conviction should it draw the attention of advocates with deep pockets. I agree on reviewing new evidence, especially dna, whenever it becomes available. The FBI or someone should have a computer that is dedicated to analyzing new evidence and automatically comparing them to anyone currently in prison. However advocates on a crusade rarely, if ever, present the true facts in their exposes. Hence we have a slew of accusation getting passed back and forth. I will also note that the prosecution seldom pleads it’s case in public so the public will usually get bombarded by facts, true or misleading, that support the defense. That puts the prosecution behind the eight ball in the court of public opinion.
I also tire of hearing all the crap about innocent people in prison when nobody bothers to publish the number of innocents killed, maimed, or otherwise harmed by those who use the system to escape punishment.
Lucy says:
September 1, 2011 at 11:06 am
“Because Williams’s statement was a mess. He couldn’t even “remember” what he supposedly told Carson. He was stuttering and saying “I don’t know” left and right. And to me, his letter to Baldwin is creepy and suspicious. That’s just an opinion, of course, though I’ve seen a number of other non-supporters share it as well.”
I still don’t know what letter to Baldwin you are referring to. I am not aware of it. If you could point me in the right direction, I would certainly have a look at it.
The Johnny Preston letter I did read, after you mentioned it. It is also something I had not seen before, and I do agree that it is bizarre.
However, I did not base my opinion of Michael Carson on any letter.
Al
Your comments about parents are IMO right on the mark. Some parents want to be the “buddys” of their children instead of doing the job parenting requires. In the case of the family cited, they paid for their irresponsibility with their lives.
LE agencies are a strange group in a lot of ways. There is professional jealousy all around. WMPD and the County Sheriff’s personel did not want to admit that they could not investigate and solve this case. The mark of smart and educated professionals is when they need help, they are not afaid to ask.
mjh, and anyone else who may be interested, here’s a summary (from a non-supporter page) of the events surrounding Carson’s testimony. It contains the link to everything (the alleged Johnny Preston letter, Danny Williams’s letter to Baldwin etc. – links are all to the Callahan archive): http://wm3truth.com/jason-baldwins-confession-to-michael-carson/
“In my opinion, it would depend on who is performing the polygraph.”
I’m also skeptical of polygraphs, but, for what it’s worth, Carson’s polygraph was administered by Arkansas state police, not the WMPD.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/mcpoly.html
——— ——— ——— ——— ———
As for Holmes’s opinion on Misskelley’s polygraph, this is what he himself had to say:
“Q: Okay. Now the basis—you said that you’ve listened to the tape extensively, is that correct?
A: Hm-mm. Hm-mm.
Q: Now, you previously testified at another hearing in this matter and indicated that you never heard the tape?
A: That’s true.
Q: Okay. And when you had never heard the tape you said basically the same thing or rendered the same opinion as you have since you heard the tape, correct?
A: True.
Q: So, I assume that your opinion was already set before you even listened to the tape of Jessie Misskelley?
A: True.”
And…
“Q. Did I understand you correctly to say that you had lost your objectivity in this case?
A. I had a feeling that your judge was going to ask me if I wanted to test this guy, and I was going to say I have already lost my objectivity. That’s what I meant by that.
Q. But that was your statement?
A. Right.
MR. STIDHAM: May he be permitted to finish the answer he had begun’? Were you through?
THE WITNESS: I don’t feel it would be proper for me to test the defendant because I’ve lost my objectivity regarding the polygraph.”
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/wholmes.html
Al
DNA collection techniques and the use of computers in LE have made great advances since 1993. In the early 1990′s, LE use of computers was mostly limited to agencies in large metropolitan areas.
WMPD were lucky if they had access to computers. Arkansas is not a wealthy state and West Memphis was not the same size and type community it is today.
The internet as we know it did not exist. This was about the time that Tim Berners Lee invented the html protocol and put it to work in a limited way.
Perhaps technology can accomplish the idea you suggest in a reasonable time. Maybe five to ten years.
“There is a palpable unease in the air. Some people are seriously afraid that someone else is going to die because these 3 have been released.”
I feel terrible for Michael Moore’s sister and her children, who, from what I understand, now have to live with Jessie Misskelley as their neighbor.
Lucy says:
September 1, 2011 at 3:01 pm
Lucy, Thank you for giving me a link to the letter written to Jason by Danny Williams.
I did not find the letter creepy or suspicious at all. It seemed very heartfelt and sincere to me. I actually found it to be very moving. The man is clearly filled with pain and guilt over this. He obviously regrets having ever said anything to Michael Carson.
This letter only confirms for me what I already believed…
Michael Carson lied.
No problem, mjh =) Well, my belief that Danny Williams lied is not based on the letter, but on his dreadfully unconvincing statement. This (capitalization and observations in parentheses mine) just doesn’t ooze credibility:
Williams: We were talking about the conversation I BELIEVE was initiated UM, we were talking about detention, and the kind of kids that were in detention, AND UH, we got to talking about the West Memphis case, and I told Michael EITHER THAT, I DON’T REMEMBER IF I told him that this allegedly happened in this case OR in a lot of satanic related killings that UM, the scrotum or testicles are cut the victim, that blood is used in the significance (of what?), UM that sometime they use the scrotum to drink blood from their victims and I DON’T REMEMBER, I THINK I REMEMBER SOMETHING ABOUT UM, the victims MIGHT HAVE BEEN allegedly their skin removed (from where?), UM, OTHER THAN THAT I’M NOT REAL SURE. ”
So, to recap… he’s not real sure.
I mean, there was a reason this guy wasn’t called by Baldwin’s defense to testify. If you’re a lawyer, and you’ve got a guy claiming your client confessed to him, and a second guy claiming the first guy is lying, and then you choose to just not call the second guy to testify, you’re either real dumb, or the guy’s a real bad witness.
Anyway, since I don’t believe the site I linked you to goes into just what sort of creepy some non-supporters think Williams’s letter is… it’s the predator kind of creepy. He reaches out to a presumably very desperate, very young boy in a situation with no way out, writing a letter offering the boy some desperately needed hope, and trying to get into his good graces. He also outlines his marital status (single) and his financial status (few financial responsibilities), and offers to buy said desperate boy presents. Strikes me as suspicious. But, it’s just speculation, of course.
What are you talking about? According to the link above Carson talked to Williams as a patient to councilor. Why would Williams need to apologize for anything since he notified the defense of his opinion.
I also don’t see any info as to what was discussed between the two that made Williams so sure that Carson lied. In addition shouldn’t there have been patient to counselor confidentiality present? Finally, the defense neglected to use call Williams to testify. I don’t know if Williams had a motive just I don’t know if Carson had a motive. I sure as heck don’t see anything to assure me one way or the other.
This is exactly what I am confused by. Williams broke his oath, and that is why I believe he attempted to discredit Carson. Carson had nothing to gain, and again I say, he passed a poly. He was no choir boy.
B
As for Carson himself… I’m interested in what you believe could’ve been his motive for lying? He wasn’t a “jailhouse snitch” – he was already out when he contacted the police, and he also didn’t have any pending issues with the law. He had nothing to gain. And he never wanted attention, and didn’t speak to the press, except a single time in 1996, 2 years after testifying, and then only in a short article reaffirming his testimony and denying accusations of lying. What motive could he have had for falsely testifying?
I ran across an affidavit given by Neal Haskell @ the Callahan site.
Thought some might find it interesting: http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/nhaf.html
It is contained in Part 2, in editing due out this afternoon, it is a great deposition, but his testimony transcript changed a lot for me. I consider him one of the best experts ( even though his training is primarily entomology) in animal predation and PMI overall second only maybe to Dr. Vass.
B
Because of the judges ruling, the defense was not allowed to call Williams to testify. The jury was not allowed to hear this information due to patient-counselor confidentiality:
Judge Burnett ruled that the defense could not tell the jury that Michael Carson was a medically-diagnosed LSD addict because substance abuse was not sufficient grounds to argue the probativeness of a witness’s truthfulness. He also ruled as inadmissible a communication from Danny Williams, sent to both the prosecuting and defense attorneys. Williams was a counselor at the same detention center as Jason and Michael. He admitted that he had discussed the case with Michael Carson. The reason Williams had contacted the attorneys was that he believed Carson would be perjuring himself if he testified in court that he had heard the details of the crimes from Jason Baldwin when in fact he had heard them from Williams. Burnett ruled that to allow the jury to hear this information would be a violation of Carson’s right to patient-counselor confidentiality. It had never been proven that Carson and Jason had ever come into contact with each other while in the detention center.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/memphis/question_8.html
Hi Blink,
I’m stuck on something, and it keeps bothering me. I’m just wondering what you think about it.
If blanching no longer occurs after 4 or 5 hours, how could the boys have been there since the night before? Do you think it was due to the water submersion? Or, is it possible that they were not killed until the early morning hours?
Hale’s report stated that lividity (the red discoloration in the skin caused by the pooling and settling of blood within the blood vessels after death) was present in all three victims and blanched with pressure. Lividity begins about thirty minutes after death and then fixes, after four or five hours blanching no longer occurs, depending on environmental conditions. According to this, the time of death could be placed at sometime after daybreak on 6 May 1993, although this is difficult to ascertain as the victim’s body temperatures were not taken.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/memphis/discovery_3.html
Thanks,
mjh
yes mjh, a water submersion and temperature of 60 degrees. I would also point out that while the boys were submerged and not seen on the surface, for reasons I believe will be discussed in part 2, it is more like being suspended with equal weight disbursement- lividity is technically the settling of the blood in the body which is no longer circulating, so water submersion in this case would be very different than say a deceased person on a hard or irregular surface. While I think Dr. Peretti did an adequate job, same with Dr. Hale (for 1993), I am NOT a fan of any coroner system. It is my belief that Medical Examiners, and Forensic Pathologists, should be required positions, never elected.
If you can believe it in 2011, some coroners have the power to keep autopsy sealed and therefore criminal cases attached to them, even cold ones, outside of FOIA reach- you just never want that kind of autonomy.
Lucy says:
September 1, 2011 at 7:04 am
Yes, but he was back at court at 5.30 to pick Ryan up. Straight after court he and Ryan returned home, where Melissa Byers was. After discussing Chris being missing, Melissa and Mark Byers went driving and looking for Chris. At 7.30, while driving, they talked about the disappearance with a police officer. The officer told them to wait till 8 o’clock. They went back home, and called the police at 8. Since we know the boys were last seen alive at 6.30 (at the earliest, possibly 6.45), I just can’t see where Byers has time unaccounted for that he could’ve used to commit the murders?
__________________________
Yes but Lucy, according to the ME, the boys were still alive throughout the entire search for them, which might explain why no one involved in the search ran across at least the bikes. The ME stated at trail the time of death was between 1:00 AM and 7:00 AM. This period of time is my focus. Who was yet in the bayou during this time frame? By his own admission, John Mark Byers, until 4:30 a.m.
“I was out looking until 4:30 a.m. I walked within 10 or 15 feet of where the bodies were found and I didn’t see them,” Mark Byers, father of one of the victims said.”
West Memphis Evening Times, May 7th, 1993.
Per Ryan’s statement, Byers sent him to bed at around midnight. According to Melissa, they’d concluded the search between 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning, which puts Mark in the woods, alone, for a good hour and a half during the time period in which the ME stated the boys would have died.
I am further troubled by the fact that according to Officer Moore, at appx 9:45-10:15 pm, he happened upon JMB alone, in the dark, near to where the boys were found. JMB said that at appx 9:00 pm he left the search in order to go home and change in to coveralls and boots. It was during this period of time, by my best analysis, which could be amiss I admit, that Ryan and his friends heard what they thought to be a gunshot and splashing. So right there, alone, you have JMB with at least 45 whole minutes of time unaccounted for while according to the ME the boys were still alive, in the area where the boys were found dead, and where Ryan and his friends heard splashing. Also, I am not comfortable with the fact that JMB wasn’t being truthful when he said he was searching with Ryan and his friends. He was not. So tell me, exactly where was JMB when Ryan and his friends heard the splashing and the gunshot, keeping in mind that Ryan has stated he and his friends entered the woods at appx. 9:00, the same time JMB had changed into coveralls and boots, which he wore for two-three days, and which were never tested for any evidence?
Also, I would also like to know what explanation he gave for his TRUCK, not the car, the TRUCK (photograph in evidence)being parked back behind the car wash, again, near to where the boys were found. Remember, JMB said he, Ryan and Melissa had gone to search in the silver – I believe it was, car.
As for the hours between 3:30 and 8:00, I find many gaps of 20-30 minutes or so, and sometimes as long as an hour.
http://www.jivepuppi.com/john_mark_byers_2.html:
May 5th: 3 pm until dawn May 6th.
3:10 – 3:30 pm Mark Byers statement: Got home from clinic. Chris didn’t have key to house. Mark arranged for Ryan to let Christopher in the house on days Mark wasn’t there. Ryan wasn’t yet there. Corroboration: Ryan notes he got there at 3:38 (referenced below). Chris’s grandfather gave this version: “I was on my way up to the schoolhouse, which was right near their, you know, when Mark saw me and told me he was going to pick up Chris by himself.” DK, p 312.
3:30 – 3:50 pm Mark Byers statement: Ryan arrives. Ryan waits with Mark for Chris until 3:50. Corroboration: Ryan Clark interview notes: “States he got home at exactly 3:38pm. — Chris was not @ home.”
3:50 – 4:50 pm Mark Byers statement: Takes Ryan to court. Stays at court until 4:50. Corroboration: Christine Roberts (below). Ryan Clark, interview notes: “Ryan had to be in court @ 4:00pm. –his dad took him. Dad dropped him off @ court [no mention of Mark Byers staying with him for nearly an hour].”
4:50 – 5:10 pm Mark Byers statement: Goes to pick up Melissa Byers from work in Memphis. Corroboration: Ryan Clark, interview notes: “[Dad] told Ryan he was going to go pick his mom up from work and go look for Chris. Notes, Christine Roberts (neighbor) says: “. . .were at court with Chris father and left 5:00″ Who left at 5:00? Might Christine be mistaken as to the time and the event?
Note: Ryan said JM dropped him off. In another statement JM says he dropped Ryan off. So which is it? Did he drop him off or stay? If he dropped him off he had a good long hour or so prior to having to go pick up Melissa.
5:10 – 5:30 pm Mark Byers statement: Returns from Memphis with Melissa. Finds Chris has tried to break into house.
Corroboration: Statement, Ryan Clark: “Dad told him that Chris had broken a seal on the window to get into the house.” Testimony, Melissa Byers: “Melissa Byers: – And I got home around 5:20 – you know, between 5:00 and 5:30, I got home – sometime – you know, and I –
Note: this whole statement leaves a lot to be desired. Melissa is seldom specific about the “time” leaving gaps of time in her statements such as “between 5:00 and 5:30. Thirty minutes here and thirty minutes there adds up to quite a good bit of time.
Understand Lucy that I am NOT accusing JMB! The only point I’m making is that JMB is no less suspect than Terry Hobbs in my opinion, and considering all of the evidence which includes JMB’s long and documented history of violent behavior, which includes direct threats against life and limb, it is my opinion that he is a more likely suspect than Hobbs who may have shot his brother-in-law, with blanks by the way, during an altercation between two adult men, he didn’t kill him, and there is no proof that Hobbs ever molested his daughter – who even says he did not – where as there is proof of the abuse Christopher suffered at the hands of John Mark. Truth be told, a comparison of the psychological profiles of John Mark and Damien could be made and might be found to be rather disturbing.
Links I frequent:
http://www.jivepuppi.com/john_mark_byers_2.html
http://westmemphisthreediscussion.yuku.com/topic/7710#.TmC6qY48nRI
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/ryanclark.html
Morgan, that assessment is incorrect, there is no definitive time of death, I would argue that it is more likely than not, as all 3 boys were in full rigor of all extremeties, that they were killed between 6:30 and 8 PM, but I admit that form that PMI on reports by Dr. Peretti, Dr. SPitz, Dr. Haskell and Brett Turvey.
I am the first person to admit, that Byers was at the top of my radar, but while I think he is an abusive drug addicted mess and criminal, he had no time, no motive, no means. This is not a secondary crime scene.
Part 2 this afternoon I think will give us all something to think about in that regard.
B
I am willing to take the verbal lashing that I am bound to take for saying this but, I still have to say it.
How difficult would it have been for JMB to have come across three little boys (he’s a very assuming figure of a man) ordered them inside the truck where they could have been bound, along with their bikes, which he thereafter hid until such time as he could get back to them, such as at some point after 9:00 pm? Remember, according to JMB Terry Hobbs was searching, and at one point with him, and almost always in the company of someone, whereas JMB was not. I have yet to find anything that would indicate the truck or the coveralls and boots JMB was wearing was tested for evidence. And as for that lie detector test that he took that he passed? It wasn’t legit. He arranged for that privately, did he not? Besides, we know that he was on some pretty powerful meds, which might well affect the results of whatever polygraph.
Also, please explain this to me:
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/autcb.html
Why was Carbamazepine found in Christopher Byers? That was his mother’s prescription wasn’t it?
Indeed, you do give us all much to think about and we thank you for it!
One more thing:
Ragdoll, I am certain that you are a very good mother. Hugs.
Blink- are you really going to post part 2 this afternoon?
lol, chillax, I am working on it, and yes, late, by posting as is.
B
Blink! Part 2 up this afternoon? I can’t wait!
Also, I stand humbly corrected, regarding the ME and the time of death. You’re correct. There is no exact time of death mentioned in at least Christopher Byers’ autopsy report. Admittedly, considering all of the sites that state 1:00 – 7:00 a.m., and having only skimmed through the actual autopsy reports I mistakenly attributed the time frame to the ME. I cannot, though, totally abandon the possibility of Peretti’s assessment, so knowing the effect cooler temperatures and colder water has on the process of rigor and decomposition.
*Sigh. Please, Blink, understand that I am not accusing Byers. From the depths of my heart, neither Byers nor Hobbs are guilty of this crime. It’s impressed me that the two banded together at the beginning of all of this, and in my opinion, they should have remained to be so as the one, in my opinion, is no less suspicious than the other, though from what I have read Byers has the longer history and is the more vocal, so oftentimes coming across as a total lunatic, whereas Hobbs sits in silence, looking as though he has something to hide. It does Hobbs no good to sit and say or do nothing. Anyway one cuts this, they have both bore their crosses, and it’s a crying shame that they are so divided now, having so much in common.
I’ve a bit more to say but work beckons. I anxiously await Part 2. Thank you Blink, for all you do.
@mjh
“Because of the judges ruling, the defense was not allowed to call Williams to testify.”
I thought Baldwin’s defense decided against calling him to testify. As I’ve mentioned before, I’ve had a big gap in following the case, and I’m blurry on some details, so I was basing that opinion on this: “Defense lawyers for Baldwin considered calling Danny Williams as a witness to impeach Carson’s testimony, but ultimately decided against it.” (from the wm3truth link above; I know it’s very much a non-supporter site, but I haven’t encountered any incorrect info there, as of yet at least). Could you help me clear this up with a link, please?
Blink, so excited about Part 2. I’ve been checking for updates way too often for my own good.
@ Morgan
Thank you for your kind words, sweet friendy. Hugs back at you…big ones! XO
Hope y’all have a great long weekend!
[...] August 19, 2011 Damien Echols, Charles Jason Baldwin and Jessie Miskelley, through an Alford plea, were convicted of three counts of first degree murder following an agreement made by Prosecutor Scott Ellington and their respective defense [...]
Dr. Haskell’s report raises a lot of questions about the process that was used to determine the time of death and the lack of proper medical examination.
The presence of fly larve in the nostrils and eyes indicates to me the boys were deceased or nearly deceased for a period of time prior to being placed in the creek. Dr. Haskell also raises a very valid point about mosquitos regarding the absence of bites.
If proper photos of the creek banks had been taken, one may have been able to determine if crayfish were present. However, small freshwater crayfish lack the power in their claws to cut into skin with one attempt. It takes several pases.
When I was a youngster, we often went down to creeks and fished for crayfish. The preferred method was to take a soft piece of beef or pork fat tied to a piece of cotton string. Then we would drop the fat into the verticle burrow of a crayfish on the creek bank. The crayfish would grab the soft fat and we would pull up the string. Sometimes we would just simply reach down with our hand and pull them out of the burrow. The crayfish would clamp onto our fingers. Seldom were they able to do more than crease the skin.
When one looks at the historical root of the word coroner it comes from the English word crowner which indicated that a person was appointed by the king or queen. This system was based on the fact that a medical person was required to officially investigate and declare a person deceased.
The American system followed the English, but instead of an appointment, the person was elected. The most famous recent case of an elected coroner’s incompetence was the Kathlene Savio murder in Illinois. (Drew Peterson)
I completely agree with Blink. State laws need to be updated to require well trained ME’s with proper labs who also know how to get specialized help when needed.
ATG-
I have not reviewed the contrast between Dr. haskell’s report, his testimony and afidavit, my bad.
At the end of the day, Dr. Haskell and Dr. Goff agreed that while they maintain entomological samples should have been recovered and preserved, it is likely that the larvae or eggs as it were, were deposited when the boys lay on the bank following recovery. It is a long way around as I like to say, but it is again one of the reasons I am fond of Dr. Haskell.
B
@ ATG & Al
I searched the Farmville Virginia Murders. I remember that case very well. I remember when it was first reported. There are people who are ticking time bombs. In this day and age, it’s essential to look at a person’s lifestyle to protect our loved ones. It’s unfortunate but I won’t apologize for doing it.
My son had a friend that just moved yesterday. I AM ESTATIC! The vibes I got from this child were not good ones. He looks like a typical boy, chubby, cute smile…but I felt anger when I looked at him. I love children, so for me, this was not a welcoming feeling I wanted to embrace. It was in July I learned from a neighbour, he had been stealing from friends and from a local convenience store. I also observed bullying tendencies over the following weeks, like aggression, hitting my son and his friends, forcing the boys to do what he wanted, chronic whining and tattling, etc. Just a mean kid. I did sit down with him and explained that when he felt angry, for any reason, to go home and cool off. This child has serious serious problems. Forward on….it was also this summer, my husband and I decided we’d start giving our son a little more independence. So, he and 3 friends, including CHUCKY (this was before I knew of the stealing) ventured to this store. The rules were simple….you go there together, buy 1 one thing, and come back to the mothership (my house) together. No one strays off!
Later that day, my son told me that CHUCKY (not real name…think CHUCKY the crazed doll) pulled out a pocket knife on some kids outside the store who were teasing him. I called his mother. I HATED making this call, I HATE confrontation of any kind and was utterly nervous. I did meet his mother before hand, in person, but I was still worried about the outcome. As it turns out, she’s another enabling and defensive parent. Nothing told me this woman was going to do right by her son. As for the knife, I was told it’s just a toy he got for his birthday. No. Big. Deal. The parents are seperated, but living together whilst she dates another man in front of this child. I told her I couldn’t allow my son to play with him. I can’t believe I even had to explain my reasons to her. There’s so much more to this story, but I’ve blathered on quite immensely (just watched Anne of Green Gables). This kid will be in the news one day and not for winning the noble peace prize.
I wonder if Damien’s parents ever got calls from other parents in his early years? Was he always a loner? The seperation of parents is devestating, but enough to lead a child down the wrong path? Something had to be amiss before. Like the c word….her egg donor stated something changed when she was 18. Bullshevik! It was there all along.
As for the ‘anger’, I won’t second guess that feeling ever again. It surfaced for very good reasons.
Thank you ATG and Al for your insightful responses to my ‘appeareance’ commment. No doubt, I walked away feeling more educated on ‘why’ we need to walk the path with our children, hand in hand, step by step. XO
Ragdoll
I believe that your child learned a valuable lesson from your encounter with “Chucky” and his enabler mom. Mothers with the behavior of “Chucky’s” mom do not understand what they are doing to their child. Children do not need to see the type behavior he is observing. No wonder the child is angry. The only thing you can safely do is exactly what you did.
You will not be able to be with your child all the time. He will learn the values you want him to have by observing your behavior.
Knives are meant to be tools primarily and weapons in an emergency. This concept needs to be taught to our present generation. Every boy of my generation was given a knife by the time they went to first grade. I cannot ever remember any boy who pulled a knife at school in an effort to attack someone. It was ingrained in their behavior not to attack with a knife.
well, ok damien doesnt really welcome lorri ‘s touch but he doesnt really wiggle away either. they sit close together and talk quietly together. but damien seems way different here than in one on one interview where he seems way confident and talkative. here he’s withdrawn and distance. he covrs his mouth bc his teeth and cold sore. hes insecure.
An Apology To My Readers-
I wish I could say this is the first time this has happened in my work, truly. Instead of seeing an individual for their true agenda, I let my ego get the best of me, and tried my best to convey my work and my beliefs.
Not because I needed validation, but because I am indignant at what has happened here. I realize that is ego just the same.
I have a son, and if you have never sat at your desk with an enlarged LCD on a webex conference evaluating wounds on little boys with other industry professionals to hear your little dude yell from outside to bring him a towel- it is humbling. I put everyone on hold, who laughed because they hold for no-one and thanked the stars I could hear my child ask me for something.
I will save you the drama of posting what you can imagine are robo-posts and threats, and yes, several accusing me of being a very public figure in hiding. Yep, cause that’s a blast for sure.
I am sad and I am angry at the the outcome of this case, not for me, but for Stevie, Chris and Michael, and those that love them, and those that worked to seek the only justice they could for them, if there is such a thing; I admit it. If our work led in the direction of innocence for WM3, it meant there were heinous criminal (s) out there, and we would pursue them ferociously.
I felt I owed you all an apology for having to read posts that would never normally meet the standard here, and the fact I cannot replace the minutes wasted for same.
My humble apology-
B
ps. and a request, I sprayed the Round Up, let it die on the vine and the rest of the garden grow- please. If not, I will come up with more lame analogies to make the eyes roll. I got that.
Wow…been checking out your site last couple of days and I’m blown away at all the info! Saw the HBO “docs” a few yrs ago and always thouht the “3″ were innocent. Read about the ple deal and decided I need to look into case further. I’m a father of 4 boys and this kind of stuff is what keeps me up @ night.
Been going over all prev comments and it hit me(maybe I’m late to the party on this)Baldwin would not take deal at 1st…reads your report on the ice pick and flips!!!-WOW…can anything be done about this or are they out for good???
To the best of my knowledge unless they reoffend and violate parole, yes.
B
This stinks to high heaven I would expect these kind of shenanigans from my home state of I’ll not the south…I suppose DE can sponge off his creepy wife for a while but would not be suprised to hear the other 2 knocked over a conv store in the future. The WM3 site had JM in the “corner” of some female MMA fight recently(who does that a week out of a life sentance). – used to think JB was the least harmless of the 3 and bcuz of him for a long time I thought they were innocent but after watching PL/PL2 again recently I see he is the scariest of all of em!! It’s clear the 3 were never raised with a conscience and that is on full display in the movies and the coverage of their release. It has never been “we didn’t do it…we didn’t do it” as much as “there’s no evidence…there’s no evisence”…If that were me I would be telling everyone who would listen “they got the wrong guy”.
Do we know who got paid what from the film makers? The only ones who seemed at all grounded wewre the Moores.
OK really need to move on with my life but as a parent this really gets to me waiting for part 3…
There is a small death glorifying clan that posts all day long on multiple forums in support of the WM3. Google some of their screen names on other forums. Check around for their real names and check their Myspaces. What you will find is that these individuals share VERY disturbing interests with Damien Echols. They have no real interest in whether the WM3 are guilty or innocent. They support the WM3 because they believe that the WM3 are members of their very disturbing “club”.
@Cindy
Been checking the supporter forums but can’t seem to find the info u r reffering to. Can u provide anything more specific?
The Carson kid admitted he lied and Terry said in his police interview that they had a working home phone the day the kids were murdered. I believe Hobbs killed the babies and I think the three teens saw it.
I see you have a bunch of posts. Quite lengthy and mostly opinion based which largely contradict known and verified facts in this case and outright accuse Hobbs and Jacoby.
I can’t have that here.
As an example- the “500″ are records of Damien’s, not Jessie Misskelley.
Damien made up the stories that he was raped in prison.
The Hobbs landline was NOT working, it had been shut off due to non-payment and the defense team spent $10Million, rented the former Hobbs residence where the hired a slew of forensics experts to scour it for evidence and they never found a single slides worth.
I do not mind dissenting opinions in the least, and you certainly have been respectful, but I do request that you source your statements and research.
B
B