The West Memphis Three HBO Paradise Lost Purgatory: Victims Parents Plea For No Oscar, Call Film Cruel Hoax
Beverly Hills, CA- Following an announcement that The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences is considering the HBO documentary Paradise Lost III : Purgatory, as one of 15 submissions being considered for an Oscar in the documentary category branch of AMPAS, chaired by Rob Epstein- Todd and Diana Moore took action.
The Moores are the parents of James Michael Moore, one of three eight your old victims murdered on May 3, 1993 along with Chris Byers and Stevie Branch. Within days of an exclusive series on the murders appearing on www.blinkoncrime.com which included the discovery of potential new evidence; the nearly 18 year old case that resulted in 9 previous convictions of three suspects took a radical turn.
On August 19th Jessie Misskelley, Damien Echols and Charles Jason Baldwin pled guilty to the murders of all 3 children via an Alford plea and were immediately released from jail as convicted murders on parole.
Paradise Lost III produced by Joe Berlinger and Bruce Sinofsky follows it’s predecessors I and II, released in 1996 after the initial convictions of the West Memphis 3.
Berlinger is a member of AMPAS, and has produced several unreleased documentaries of Hollywood A- listers including Charlize Theron, Hugh Jackman, Oprah Winfrey and Cameron Diaz.
Click below to read impassioned and unedited letter sent to Chairman Epstein.
The following is the unedited letter sent to Chairman Epstein by Todd and Diana Moore:
TODD MOORE
DIANA MOORE
PO Box 721
2004 Main St.
Hughes, AR 72348
November 22, 2011
Chairman Robert P. Epstein
AMPAS
Awards Office
8949 Wilshire Blvd
Beverly Hills CA 90211
Re: Paradise Lost III: Purgatory
Dear Chairman Epstein and members of the Documentary Branch of the Academy:
We are Todd Moore and Dana Moore.
Our cherished eight-year-old son, Michael, was brutally murdered on May 5, 1993 by Jessie Misskelley, Damien Echols, and Jason Baldwin. Misskelley was tried and convicted in 1994. Baldwin and Echols were convicted by a separate jury later that year. All three entered Alford pleas to our son’s murder August 19, 2011. They are now, as they have been for the past 17 years, guilty as a matter of law. They have been guilty as a matter of fact since the moment water flooded Michael’s lungs after he was beaten, stripped, hogtied, and then discarded into a stream to drown.
Michael was the joy of our lives. In addition to our son, his murderers also tortured and slaughtered two other children, Christopher Byers and Stevie Branch. These three precious victims were classmates and friends, and their loss was a tragedy felt throughout the entire community.
We are horrified to learn that a documentary that glorifies Michael’s killers, Paradise Lost III: Purgatory, is among 15 documentaries being considered for an Academy Award. Because of public pressure that exploded due to gross misrepresentations of fact in two previous documentaries, Michael’s killers were unjustly able to enter into a plea agreement, were released from prison, and now pose additional threats to society. This third documentary further insulted the families of these three boys and may lead to further injustice. We implore the Academy not to reward our child’s killers and the directors who have profited from one of the greatest frauds ever perpetrated under the guise of a “documentary film.”
We realize that documentaries have a point of view and advocate a position to some degree or another. As with the two before it, this film crossed the line into a cruel hoax that had real-life consequences larger than even those of us who still mourn our horrific losses. It is not art. This film is cynical and exploitative deception that compounds our pain needlessly and rewards those who inflicted it. It and the two films that preceded it are simply tasteless tabloid entertainment presented as social commentary.
We are private individuals. The directors, Bruce Sinofsky and Joe Berlinger, are aware of this because we refused to participate in their last two films. We appeared solely in the first film because the directors lied and told us their purpose would be to “protect children.” You can imagine our shock and disgust when the first film opened with gruesome and gratuitous images of the crime scene and remained exploitative and salacious until the credits rolled. It did nothing to promote child welfare. It did everything to support child killers and to benefit monetarily from a ghastly crime.
We were hardly the only people Sinofsky and Berlinger misled or manipulated.
Consider what happened to John Mark Byers. He was Christopher Byers’ adoptive father. Confrontations between Mr. Byers and Echols’ supporters at hearings were staged. Of course, Berlinger and Sinofsky were there to film these episodes. Berlinger and Sinofsky would transport Mr. Byers to the hearings and wire him for sound beforehand. Furthermore, Berlinger and Sinofsky maneuvered Mr. Byers and Echols’ supporters in order to film the anticipated confrontations. Later, after the cameras were packed away, Mr. Byers acted like a different person. Instead of being belligerent, he was affable. When asked about his change in demeanor, Mr. Byers stated that he was supposed to act that way when the cameras were present. Mr. Byers was quoted as saying he received $500 per hour for “exclusive interviews.”
These contrived “confrontations” and other distortions caused many viewers to believe Mark was the “real killer.” It had a terrible impact on his life. We brought this to the attention of HBO. Our complaint was ignored because these falsehoods proved lucrative.
The complete list of distortions would be a long one. The above example is illustrative of the manipulation and distortions that are prevalent throughout the entire Paradise Lost franchise. The films are bereft of ethics, principles, or factual accuracy and basis.
Publicity from the first two films did generate millions of dollars in donations. Much of that money went toward the defense’s investigation of the case. Not a single piece of exculpatory evidence was produced. In other words, between $10,000,000 and $20,000,000 has been collected, although no one knows the exact amount collected or how it was spent. In eighteen years, nothing was found to clear the names of the actual killers. Late last year, the windfall that went toward the legal defense resulted in the granting of an evidentiary hearing which was set to be held a few weeks from now. Instead, the murderers opted to initiate a plea negotiation with the State. As a result, they remain convicted of the deaths of three children.
We have to note that this situation is similar to the one that confronted the Academy when Capturing the Friedmans was nominated for Best Documentary Film of 2003. Two of the Friedmans’ sexual abuse victims presented another Open Letter to the Academy. Capturing the Friedmans had much more artistic merit and integrity than Paradise Lost III: Purgatory, yet it did not receive the award. The Academy made the right decision then, and we pray it does so this time as well.
Sincerely,
Todd Moore Diana Moore
cc: (via eMail)
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Jonesboro Sun
LA Times
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Hollywood Reporter
People Magazine
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Mom3.0 That is not why at all they showed the scene. The scene was DELETED!!! The video was to show that blood was on it but they sorry HBO left out that..”DELETED SCENES” Why?
It was edited, and it was clear blood was on it, not sure what your objection is
B
Ok Thanks Blink.
Blink, see I told you I dont do well with hints. Thank you for much for setting me on the the right path via the link to the pdf IRT the case and what it entails.
If I am now thinking straight, I feel that the family should take whatever legal course is available to them seeing how they feel so strongly.
Again, I do not know if they are innocent or if they committed these murders. But they did accept the Alford plea thereby admitting guilt at the same time claiming innocence…so what would that mean for a wrongful death suit? IDK
AJMO
–Vicki, Im sorry I thought you were asking all of us for our thoughts not just Blink. My mistake. -
Just so you know my opinions are just that my opinions- they are not given as the be all end all- your thoughts and/or Blinks could be correct- mine could be wrong.
What I do share with you, is concern over what ended up on the cutting room floor-(editing)
As I think those cuts would be very enlightening and could hold an entirely different “take” pun intended.
One thing I did think was sadly lacking in the Paradise Lost films was more about the LIVES of the victims- their school work, their rooms, their favorite toys, shows.. thoughts from teachers etc…there wasnt much in the films to make them living, breathing and alive…
Sure there were a few thoughts included from the parents but not much…and I know some must have been edited because in the PL3 Todd Moore speaks about little Mike being like Bart Simpson silly and funny, and Melissa Byers talks about Chris being a gift, and Terry Hobbs talks about Stevie being a fine boy…
SO I wish there were more about who the boys were before they were brutally murdered…
AJMO
I agree! I wish it could have been more about the victims also.
@M.o.30 –I wanted to apologize if i sounded rude. I just only read the first part of your comment and started running my mouth. Actually my question was a little confusing because it seems that the comment I made didn’t fall in order or maybe i didn’t click submit after typing.
Vicki,
I appreciate you taking the time to offer an apology. Thank you
Again, I am sorry if anything I wrote offended you.
In following this case, I know that emotions run deep, and it is so easy to misinterpret someones writing/thoughts.
I think we both have alot in common- we want so badly to help little Mike, Chris and Steve. We wish we could twitch our noses, and somehow go back and erase it all… all of the pain, all of the suffering, all of the injustice.
Sadly we cant- and sometimes that frustration just boils over.
No worries, Vicki. I do not think you are rude, and your apology proves it. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts, and I do hope you will continue to post.
Peace
AJMO
So the prosecution had a necklace from Echols that had blood on it and they waited until they were ready to rest their case to have it tested. No wonder the judge didn’t allow it in but that was an important piece of evidence.
Blink, do you know why those long trench coats that Echols and Baldwin were said to always wear were not taken when their homes were searched? It seems that those coats were known to be a favorite piece of clothing for the two of them but then they just disappear. Or did they?
I saw the clip of West of Memphis on YouTube. The blues wailing in the background (I thought the 3 liked metal) and the snapping turtle which appears in the clip to be biting a human. It looked to be an alligator snapping turtle, IMO, so one would have to believe that a creature like that was there in that ditch that night. I just don’t believe the animal predation story. It was thought up by the experts that the defense hired years later (IIRC) who looked at pictures of the dead little boys’ injuries and concluded that animals did the injuries. But animals didn’t strip those children naked and tied them hand to foot with their shoestrings.
W of M clip had much better cinematography than the Paradise Lost series. Is it just clever editing or are some of the witnesses going to recant what they swore to? And if they do, like Michael Carson or Vicky Hutcheson, will the supporters of the 3 believe what they’ll say now when Carson and Hutcheson have been called every type of liar by the supporters for 18 years now? That will be interesting to find out and sad, too.
As a Memphis resident who was so scared, saddened and outraged when the murders happened, I truly feel for all of the families involved and can’t begin to imagine what Mr. Moore has went through over the past two decades.
We should all feel outraged that the police department failed the victims and the city of West Memphis through their extremely shoddy work. But, I think it is important to remember that the purpose of the film was to demonstrate the failure of the West Memphis police force. (honestly…failure is too nice of a word, the fact that Hobbs was not questioned until 2007 is shocking to the conscience- three little boys dead and you do not interview all of the parents??!)
It is hard to keep things in perspective because of the horrific nature of the crimes. But, the bottom line is that the documentary succeeded in showing what happens when a criminal investigation is severely tainted, a valuable lesson for both rural and urban communities. Evidence gathered from a tainted crime scene is useless, and not gathering the right types of evidence is just as outrageous. In America, we should all expect an ethical, fair trial- a process that allows the victims and accused to seek justice in a prejudice-free environment WITHOUT tainted evidence.
Anyone that has read anything at all about this case knows that justice could not have been served due to the actions of the police force…and the world needs to know about it so that it doesn’t happen again.
Will there be a part 3 of the West Memphis series you have written?
First quarter, best I can do, when I do publish I will be able to explain the hold up.
B
Dysthymia,
Hi. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Each of them made me think and rethink- so thanks. You brought up some very good questions and concerns.
Even though I am just a fence sitter, I will give you my perspective-
I am gonna break up my thoughts, as they can be long– I do tend to go on and on….
You wrote in part:
So the prosecution had a necklace from Echols that had blood on it and they waited until they were ready to rest their case to have it tested. No wonder the judge didn’t allow it in but that was an important piece of evidence.
**
According to the “lost” or “deleted” PL-clip –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKnGYZfuBBQ&feature=related
The prosecution did not know they had DE’s necklace with blood on it- It wasnt until AFTER BOTH sides had rested their case- that Fggelman and I assume some LEO went to the evidence room to look through it all- and discovered the possible blood…
Fogelman said that “they” did this because of some “allegations” that came up during the trial(I assume this has to do with the bojangles evidence being lost And/or the knife find IDK)
But LEO never knew there was blood and they did not discover it- according to Fogelman, it was HE who with the aid of a magnifying glass, discovered the blood.
– My understanding is Burnett, The judge, was going to declare a mistrial and have two separate cases but gave the prosecution the choice of whether they wanted to bring it in or not- warning them that if they did, it would lead to his declaring a mistrial- (this was due to JB and DE being tried together)-
If this evidence was introduced, the necklace and the finding that it COULD be Jasons blood- (Yes, ALSO Stevies AND 11% of the population)- there would have to be separate trials for both-
The Prosecution made the ultimate choice NOT to bring it in. It is my understanding, they felt their case was strong, & it would be taking a chance, to try the cases separately- as they were concerned Jason would walk if there were indeed separate trials… and of coarse it would be more money and time to start over- picking new juries etc.
http://westmemphisthreediscussion.yuku.com/topic/8022/t/March-17-1994-Hearing-part-one-re-the-necklace.html
AJMO
cont part 2
Part 2
Me again-Dysthymia,
Thanks again for the great post- I am not Blink, but I hope you wont take offense to me sharing my thoughts.
You wrote in part:
Blink, do you know why those long trench coats that Echols and Baldwin were said to always wear were not taken when their homes were searched? It seems that those coats were known to be a favorite piece of clothing for the two of them but then they just disappear. Or did they?
**
I know Jerry Driver testified to seeing all 3 boys in November, wearing “long coats” and carrying “staffs”—
Jason Crosby, a friend at one time, to all 3- in a statement said Jason had stolen his knife – when JC asked JB about it, he told him he had traded the knife AND a trench coat to a cousin in MiSS….
(Remember, Jason Crosby is the same kid that admitted to lying to police about another knife which he said Jason had brought to school- He is also the same kid who gave another knife- said to belong to DE to the reporter- the same one who appeared on both PL1 interviewing Pam and on the Geraldo.. IIRC)
Damien testified to owning the trench coat. He said it should still be at his home- He said it was on the floor of the bedroom when police came to collect items.-Remember he was taped at the SK wearing the trench after the murders.
Jesse to my knowledge, was never seen (besides by Driver) wearing a trench- In watching the PL films, I noticed JM’s stature he is rather short, it seems any trench of DE or Jasons would be really long on him.. (just an observation)
I realize that most are very concerned over these trench coats, and may believe that all three were wearing them during the murders– BUT JM statements dont support this- he says DE was wearing a leather short coat- like a biker jacket-( Which he DID have- according to an excerpt of DE’s letters IIRC or maybe his book)
The other two, were said to not have worn coats. According to the Hollingsworths- DE was not wearing a trench either…
IIRC Todd Moore, much later would recall a transient, possibly DE, in the area of the woods walking the morning after the murders..- IIRC this man was said to have worn a trench…
So IMO, I cant put much weight to the 3 having worn the trenchs, especially not that night- the witnesses never said they saw the 3 in trench coats that night – and Mr. Moore, only recalled this encounter much later, and DE was seen wearing it after the murders…
AJMO
Cont Part 3
PArt 3-
Sorry about the length Dysthymia and all- this is a short one-
Dy-
you wrote:
I saw the clip of West of Memphis on YouTube. The blues wailing in the background (I thought the 3 liked metal)
**
It is true, DE and JB liked Heavy Metal but neither was a slave to this- They liked other music too- U2, Pearl Jam, Blue Oyster Cult, Pink Floyd etc- these are not Heavy Metal bands…and as for Jesse- It has never been said what type of music he liked and he was never into wearing all black or concert tees either…go figure…
I really liked the music in the trailer and although I recognized Pearl Jam, I did not know the other artists or songs-
If you are interested– Here are some links to the songs included in the trailer-
Listed as they appear in clip:
Guilty- Son of Dave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER9xcHtGY44, Fixin’ to
Die- G. Love & Avett Bros, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCPH3dPQkIc&ob=av2e
Tremor Christ- Pearl Jam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoSHqldM72o
Whomever choose the music for the trailer did I good job I think
AJMO
Cont part 4
Thank you Mom.3
I’m searching around for something new to post. I had a link to post but i see youtube had blocked the video because of some kind of copyright law.
Ill asked that guy to post the video again.and get you thoughts on it.
What, did you find another laughable red herring that you will present as the smoking gun?
Err.. Heh?
Didn’t you find that ice axe disguised as a red herring compelling?
Or were you just jockeying for “unforeseen” front row heckler?
B
* chose arrg! sorry about any errors-
Hi again Dysthymia- Heres part 4
You wrote in part:
and the snapping turtle which appears in the clip to be biting a human. It looked to be an alligator snapping turtle, IMO
**
The clip/S of the turtle—there are two shots of turtles in the trailer- one, the biting scene and one at the end– You may be right Dy, Im not sure either. But I do not believe the one shown biting the arm is an alligator snapping turtle- I could be wrong- as it is only a brief clip… still I do know the one at the end is definitely of that variety-
Here is a link for comparison:
-http://www.chelydra.org/common_alligator_snapping_turtle.html
and
Heres the link to the trailer- if you stop it at 2:33 the biting turtle is shown and at 3:57 the other turtle is shown
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFSuAI1ao8A
AJMO
cont Part 5
Part 5 or cont of 4
I told you I tend to go on and on-
My apologies to all and to Blink for having to moderate all this- Hope it helps in some small way-
Dysthymia- cont-
You wrote:
so one would have to believe that a creature like that was there in that ditch that night. I just don’t believe the animal predation story. It was thought up by the experts that the defense hired years later (IIRC) who looked at pictures of the dead little boys’ injuries and concluded that animals did the injuries. But animals didn’t strip those children naked and tied them hand to foot with their shoestrings.
**
You are right that one would have to at least consider the possibility that turtles were in the ditch that night inorder to even begin to ponder whether or not the injuries could be from turtles.
Dy- of course your thoughts could be correct-This is how I look at it FWIW-
Considering the Hill near the ditch was called “Turtle Hill” and considering Ryan, the older brother of Chris, said there were turtles there, and also JMB said that Chris often went to those woods and brought home lots of turtles and put them in the back yard pool… and considering kids in the neighborhood said much the same regarding turtles… add to that, in comparing some of the injuries to wounds found on Stevies face- I think several of the v shaped injuries could have been made by turtles… and last but not least, considering the fact that Blink also agrees to the POSSIBILITY that at least some of the wounds were caused by animal predation and/or necrophagia– I do not think it is such a huge leap of faith to at least CONSIDER the possibility that turtles were there that night, and caused some of those injuries…
However, after saying all that- I do respect your belief that it is not possible, and since I am not an expert, nor was I there, I can not say with 100% certainty that my thoughts are correct- therefore I could most certainly be wrong….
Speaking of experts, I agree they are often times proven wrong, and often times with further research and experience, they themselves admit to being wrong…and considering so many experts were proven wrong in this case- Perritti and his expert turtle testimony, regarding turtles NOT feeding under water, & His one time thoughts IRT the possibility that these three little victims were raped….and also Griffis and His expert “occult satanic” testimony, and the defenses earlier expert(sorry ICR name) and the human bite mark testimony…
I agree experts CAN be wrong—But they could be right, and since this is supposed to be about finding the truth, how does even considering the injuries were not from a knife- like perhaps due to animal predation or say even an ice ax- in anyway do a disservice to these little victims and the case against the 3 convicted?
Afterall, as you opined Dysthymia, little Mike, Stevie and Chris did not hogtie themselves and throw themselves in the ditch- nor did they bang their heads against a wall to cause those fractures…. so someone did infact, inflict bodily harm to them- which resulted in their brutal deaths, and someone did in fact dispose of them and did infact hide their clothes and the bikes…So even IF it is said that no knife was used, no iceax used, no ritualistic murder occurred, no rape happened- how does considering this, or even proving it- how does that preclude these 3 from having done the crime?
My thoughts are It doesnt…
So in reality, it is possible that even if the boys were beaten with sticks, and forced to undress, and taunted and humiliated, and tied and hurt, and thrown in a dirty ditch to be left for dead,sisposed and left as nothing more than animal food- and thereby not harmed with a knife or an an iceax…. It is still possible that DE JB and JM did it- and if it happened that way…how does that detract from the brutality of the crime?- how does that lesson the murderers culpability? How does any of it prove these 3 werent the ones that did it? It doesnt- right?
Sorry for the graphic nature- and thanks again Dy for making me think, again you could be right, in no way am I saying my opinions are fact-
AJMO
Cont Part 6
Part 6
The End- Yay!!!
Thanks again for letting me share my thoughts Dy and all- hope you all are still with me- if not I understand – this was rather long….
Dysthymia
You wrote:
you wrote:
W of M clip had much better cinematography than the Paradise Lost series. Is it just clever editing or are some of the witnesses going to recant what they swore to? And if they do, like Michael Carson or Vicky Hutcheson, will the supporters of the 3 believe what they’ll say now when Carson and Hutcheson have been called every type of liar by the supporters for 18 years now? That will be interesting to find out and sad, too.
**
I agree, W of Memphis does seem to be funded better, and it does seem to have better cinematography- who knows if it will be better….
I dont know if it is do to careful editing- that is seems as though M Carson is backtracking–as for Vicki Hutchison – it is not due to careful editing- She recanted awhile back- and it seems she even pointed the finger at LE making her testify IIRC…so perhaps she backtracked on that part?…IDK–
As for what supporters think. I can not answer for them, but I can give my opinion- on whether or not they will believed now-
FWIW here it is:
I will not take his newly found words as truth, but I will however take his affirmations as proof that he is a liar…and can not be trusted to tell the truth.
Therefore I will disregard his testimony- just as I have VH’s and Jesses statements-
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and I hope you dont mind me sharing mine- I look forward to more of your great posts, Dysthymia
AJMO
Peace
——-
Dear Mom3.0. How in the world do you keep your concentration on each fact and opinions (of mine, in this case) so well? I take forever to post anything unless it is late and I can’t sleep and emotions take over. I have meet a few supporters or those on the fence on the various sites and I have to say that you are one of the best and fairest and most focused of all. Believe it or not, your thoughts on these crimes and the guilt or innocence of the 3 often make me think about what I’ve believed and often send me back to Callahan’s to re-read and ponder. I appreciate your posts, didn’t mind the length of them at all.
But, I will say that I only watched the W of M clip once and I believed the turtle to be an alligator one since that particular species is almost as terrifying as finding a real alligator roaming around nearby. We have regular snapping turtles here and they are ferocious, indeed. My granddad used to catch them, people eat them around here (or used to) so I know a bit of what they can do.
My personal opinion about the Byers child’s mutilations was that it was done with a knife and the scratches on the bodies could have come from Echols’ long, sharpened fingernails. But this is only my opinion about what could have happened that night. No one will ever truly know what happened that night in those woods except the ones involved in taking the lives of those three little eight year old boys.
Sad says:
January 19, 2012 at 11:54 am
Welcome to BOC Sad-
This case makes me feel sad too.
I thought your post was very well written, and I found myself agreeing with most of your thoughts- thanks for sharing them.
Vicki- Youre welcome- and I would be happy to view the clip, when you find it.
Coen – Hi, I think if you would stop with the school yard taunts you would have alot to add to the conversation. I found your thoughts on the comparison of the wounds to that of an iceax, interesting, although the delivery was rather rude. Maybe you could stick around and share some more opinions sans the attitude- That would be good I think…
AJMO
Blink, sorry to hear that we will not be able to read the 3rd installment until much much later…I understand- but I dont have to like it… Thanks for letting us know
Over and out
@ M0m.3 and Dysthymia.
I saw that video and was reading comments on the video ….a few i agreed with. I think the Oodles of money the “supporters” helped with (and many supporters) the guy,Carson might have been bribed along with a few others. Really this film makes them look more guilty this time. I hope the public will notice all the editing and “Acting”
Vicki
Makes them look more guilty? Only in the unique non world does it make them look more guilty. I’m still on the fence with this case, but your argument uses no logic whatsoever. It may look “put on”, but it doesn’t make them look more guilty in any way, shape or form.
And while everyone complains about people making money off of this case it could have gone the other way. Let’s just say that they are innocent for a minute. If no one had made a documentary or funded the case to find further evidence, innocent people would still be in jail. This goes for any case of wrongful conviction. There are probably thousands of people currently serving time for crimes they didn’t commit. We should be thankful that those with the means to fund further investigation are putting a spotlight on miscarriages of justice.
So it goes both ways. Maybe in the end it will turn out that all of this money and publicity went to supporting child killers, but even if they are guilty, at least the publicity that this case has received has shown how fucking incompetent the judicial system is.
And do not twist that into, “Yeah, incompetent as in they let 3 murderers free.” You know that’s not what I meant.
BTW, just got word from someone who saw WoM that there is a substantial piece of evidence included in the film that may lead to the three being exonerated. Wonder what it is.
According to Deadline, a new witness (family member) has stepped forward and says that Terry Hobbs has admitted to killing the boys.
What now nons?
Coen-
lose the tude or lose this url, last warning. Difference of opinion is fine, being an asshole is not.
B
@Coen –Well it does to me! and Really i have seen a lot of people who changed their mind after that last bs.
My cousin thought they were innocent but after watching that he changed his mind.
Interesting news release today:
http://www.katv.com/story/16564511/west-memphis-three-defense-team-says
K- did we read this?
What a bunch of claptrap. I hope Hobbs finds himself a media savvy atty.
This is a stunt because they have no evidence to exonorate them after 10 million and guilty pleas and nobody is going to give an oscar to convicted murderers, period.
O, and the fact that the case I cited the other day has legs for the victims families to seek legal remedy outside of the wrongful death statute.
B
Start a blog, invite your friends, bring your potato head angry eyes, whatever you need, but this is not that kinda site. Best wishes.
B
Coen says:
January 20, 2012 at 10:17 am
Respectfully, friend, your posts reflect someone who did not invest any time in reading the well articulated, thought out pieces OR the stellar sleuthing of the site’s posters. New details were introduced that can’t be found on any other site, nor will you find these not so innocent details on the Paradise series anywhere. I can also assure you, Blink does not offer a slanted view of the case. Only the truth as SHE sees it. She has gone through all the docs as prepared and observed by LE, police, counsel…..viewed crime scene photos, is completely educated on the police mistakes and poor investigating, etc. I thought these 3 were innocent until I read what she offered. On this site, you have to think outside the box and see the big picture….AND….if you are truly after a complex, thought provoking blog, weighing in on every piece of evidence (including what was not mentioned in court or known to public), you are at the right place. Just how serious are you about the truth?
You haven’t said anything about certain pieces of evidence that haven’t been brought up before. How many times does a person have to repeat herself? READ and educate yourself. Form your own opinion. The only favour asked is….please keep an open mind. Differences of opinion are not only acceptable, they’re expected.
The victims deserve it and this is a victim’s advocate site, afterall.
With all due respect, Blink.
Blessings~~~
@ Coen
RE: Snapping turtles
Mom3.0 covered that subject matterextensively and to the max. Beyond excellent investigating I might add. Just go back a few pages or so.
@ Dysthymia says:
January 19, 2012 at 11:12 pm
Thank you for showing your gratitude to Mom3.0. Our special friendy is a kick ass sleuther. Besides that, she had dedicated countless hours to find that little scrap of truth that could change the course of direction on most BOC threads. It takes a special character…and yes, I am singing her praises. I truly admire what she brings to BOC…above all, her inate ability to teach those who post and read here. You also won’t meet a kinder, most gentle soul. Kudos and big love my sweet friendy. <3
Ragdoll. Hey thanks for the nice things you said about my post. I always read yours, too, with great interest. (Love the Ragdoll name)
And, yes, Mom3.0 has become something of a legend here on Blink on Crime. I admire her ability to be fair to both sides of this sad story because that is so difficult to do. I try but I find it nearly impossible anymore.
I’ve been reading the “evidence” that will be in West of Memphis. It isn’t much; in my opinion it is the same exact thing the Paradise Lost series did to Mark Byers. Mr. Jackson is only preaching to the choir with much better cinematography. The statements of the ex-friends of the nephew of Mr. Hobbs is hearsay (as I understand it, maybe even double hearsay?….Blink?) and is no evidence against Mr. Hobbs. The senior Mr. Hobbs denied all that in the Commercial Appeal today. He sounded truthful, to me. There was
I wish (an useless one, too) that the 3 had opted for the evidentiary hearing and got the new trial(s). Why didn’t their defense team present any new evidence to a court of law in a new trial, instead of putting this stuff out there produced for entertainment value? The court system had changed since the original trials of the 3. They had enormous publicity, money, and the press supporting their innocence. That Alford Plea will always be a complete mystery to me because in order to obtain it, you admit guilt (I know the technical part I am saying what it really is. They are felon child murders in the eyes of the legal system now)
It just is not fair to the victim’s families that HBO and WingNutFilms (Peter Jackson’s company) is still making money and publicity from the murders of Michael, Chris, and Stevie. And, to be honest, it isn’t fair to the WM3, who should have had a trial (or 3 trials) to produce any new evidence and any reasonable doubt to a judge and jury and finally decide the case in a court of law.
After more than 18 years, all roads lead to and ended with “Hollywood”.
Double hearsay, and you reminded me of what is likely my strongest point in this case.
Although, it is likely my own fault it is muted because I made my opinion on the conclusions of this case known.
Ellington, or as I prefer to refer to him, “Eshewington” is derelict for not INSURING the same- evaluation/presentation of all evidence in the case, whether it was presented at trial or not.
How was that not the level-est of playing fields in this case?
B
Blink,
Are you familiar with a potential match between the shoelaces and one of Terry Hobbs’ knives? There have been rumblings on some of the boards. If this is true, how can they make this kind of match so many years later?
no, the shoelaces were not cut, link?
Don’t fall for this BS media campaign. Intelligent Human beings can see a tail wagging the dog, hobbits not so much.
B
Dysthymia says:
January 19, 2012 at 11:12 pm
Hi Dy, I am sorry I overlooked this post.
Thank you very much for all your kind words. I think you are a wonderful contributor too.
Interesting thought regarding fingernails perhaps causing the scratching wounds-
You could be right. although I think it would probably be quite easy for even the most inexperienced examiner to look at scratches to make a determination there were in fact caused by a persons hand- I mean in a case where is t is undeniably a homicide where there has been bindings etc-
I would think an examiner would be able to instantly tell especially if they did a measurement on spacing etc… IDK- also with human scratch marks-
Wouldnt they all have somewhat of a crescent shape, and of varying sizes kinda like a C or C – depending upon the finger that would have scratched, as all fingers are different sizes…also the thumb. Again I do not know.
Also your theory brings some very obvious questions to mind-
First do we know for a fact DE wore his finger nails long at the time of the murders? Are there photos of him taken shortly before the murders which would show this?
As IIRC noone who questioned DE in the days after the murder mentioned long nails and as we know, they were looking closely as they made mention of the “+” tattoo and the “evil” tattoo- which were said to be on his hands and knuckles.
Also- when they filmed DE at the skating rink, I dont remember seeing long nails, although IIRC it was grainy film and DE had his hands in his pockets most of the time…
Heres another thought- If a person attacks a person using their fingernails as weapons I would think this could leave behind alot of trace evidence- were the scratches swabbed for DNA? And when DE was arrested were his nails scraped? In fact were his hands photographed?
I would think there would have been a chance that one of his nails would have broke off- were one of his nails torn and jagged?
Last thought- we all know DE had long fingernails at one point and that he got in a fight with his rival and scratched his face- Were photos taken of the kid and his wounds? – Are there pictures of the kid after the fight- in the following days,weeks or months which could be compared to the marks on Little Stevie?
I dont know the answers to any of these questions- you always make me think thanks Dy-
Again you could be right, But it seems to me – if there was even a chance that these marks could have came from a human hand, then I would think that they would have realized it, and immediately measured DEs hand and finger span, as well as making the connection to his school yard fight…
AJMO
Ragdoll, Hi my BOC buddy, Glad to see you.
Thank you my “friendly” for your sincere and kind thoughts- It means alot to me that you would compliment my research .
I appreciate you too, and I value your contributions as well. Thanks for always swooping in to give us all a pat on the back- or a word of admonishment when needed
With gratitude,
Mom3
jb says:
January 21, 2012 at 3:25 pm
Blink,
Are you familiar with a potential match between the shoelaces and one of Terry Hobbs’ knives? There have been rumblings on some of the boards. If this is true, how can they make this kind of match so many years later?
no, the shoelaces were not cut, link?
Don’t fall for this BS media campaign. Intelligent Human beings can see a tail wagging the dog, hobbits not so much.
B
—-
Hey JB nice to see you again- thanks for bringing that question over-
Blink, I do not if this is all part of a “wag the Dog” campaign or not- but I think it does not necessarily mean a person who considers the possibility is unintelligent-
I do think they may be trying to “Kronk” TH, which if true, would be very very sad, and very wrong.
But if they are simply bringing up questions and concerns which have come about due to the evidence, or testing, or new witnesses etc- I think everyone must weigh the information just as they would your work and other experts as well JMO
- As to your question JB and yours Blink-
As we know, little Mike Stevie and Chris were bound with shoelaces-
As we know, one of their shoes still had a shoe lace in it when recovered- I believe this one was little Mikes IIRC-
Anyway all the shoelaces except one- were of equal measurements and seems to have come directly from their own little shoes.
One appeared to be cut in have and it appeared to have been a long shoe lace- one that would not regularly be used in a child size shoe-
I do not know if this long black shoe lace was in fact “cut” nor do I know if it was not originally from one of the victims shoes-
Question?
Are there photos we could view of these bindings/laces and was the lace found in the sneaker compared to the “long lace” inorder to see if it was a match?
Can anyone point me to the actaula measurements of these laces?
BTW- I could not find a link to the lace definitely being cut— but this concern is not new-
See Here **** portion done by me:
http://thewm3debate.yuku.com/topic/513/Damien-Echols-Asks-for-DNA-Testing
Snipped-
ECHOLS REQUESTS DNA TESTING OF HAIRS FROM CRIME SCENE
Asks Judge Laser to Allow DNA Analysis of Crime Scene Material Never Tested and All Information Held by the FBI
(Little Rock, Arkansas—March 30, 2011) In a brief filed today in the court of Second Judicial District Circuit Judge David N. Laser, Damien Echols’s defense team asked for permission to conduct DNA, fiber, and fingerprint tests on certain materials found at the crime scene and elsewhere, some of which could not be tested in 1993 because the testing technology was unavailable.
The attorneys requested all material held by the Arkansas State Crime Laboratory and certain forensic evidence possibly in the possession of the West Memphis Police Department, LabCorp (formerly known as Genetic Design), the Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences, the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences, the University of North Texas Health Science Center, and the FBI. The requested material includes:
* All hair retrieved from the crime scene.
* All remaining biological material, including “skin cuticles” from the ligatures.
* All of the victims’ clothing, including shoes and shoelaces.
***** The non-ligature portion of the one black shoelace that was apparently cut in half.*****
* All other physical evidence from the crime scene, including sheriff’s badge, bike reflector lights, bicycles, ice pick, cigarette packets and cigarette butts, child’s wallet, hook and rope, and all wooden sticks.
* The wooden planks removed from the tree fort near the crime scene.
* The white sheets in which the victims’ bodies were transported to the Medical Examiner’s Office, and the white paper on which the victims’ clothing was dried before being examined.
In addition, the brief requests that the court agree to the testing of “… green vegetable-like material from Steve Branch’s stomach.” The defense has developed new evidence indicating that Pam Hobbs, Stevie’s mother and Terry’s wife at the time, prepared “Salisbury steak, mashed potatoes and green beans for dinner for Stevie on the night of May 5th before she went to work at 4:30 that day.
AJMO
I honestly do not know if there are pictures available of Damien Echols’ hands and fingernails before the murders or right after he was arrested. I was basing my opinion upon the description of his appearance on his mental health records at Callahan, his fingernails are described as being long and filed into points and I took that to be a style favored by him at that time in his life. This was a year or less before the murders. http://callahan.8k.com/images/500/007.jpg
There is also an interview (on YouTube) by Court TV of him (1996) after the trial and his nails are seen in a glimpse and they are very long but it is hard to see if he was allowed to file them into points in prison.
I’ve read that the scratches cannot be animals or human,however, because they are too evenly spaced and clean and appear to be from a weapon of some type.
CR, I did mean the nice words. I sometimes feel very guilty because I feel so strongly about their guilt and wish I were more even tempered about my feelings on the evidence and opinions. It is a good think to have a level head in cases so full of emotion as this one is. You do great work. And from the heart. Peace to you.
Dy, I am not CR, but I understand the comparison, and I know you contribute as a poster on WMtruth just as “CR”- but I assure you she is not me- and even so, I hope the nice words you wrote apply to me and only me LOL-
Yes, I have read of DE’s nails being long. I have read description of “Talons”" and filed to “points” and I watched the same vid of him in jail-
- How does anyone file their nails into “points” wouldnt the points still have a crescent shape…and wouldnt that make them more brittle? IDK
I guess a better question to ask is if they were always long and then
suddenly and only after the murders they were short?
AJMO
Peace
oops sorry for all the typos/errors guys-
Mom3.0 Well, I felt something wasn’t right as I was typing. I had been reading several comments from CR at another site and her name was on my mind. I know that you have been asked if you are her before and answered no. I hope that you didn’t think I did that on purpose, Mom3.0 It seems I cannot type, think, see what my dog is barking at and talk with family members at the same time. So sorry about that.
I wish someone knew the answer to the fingernails question. I took it that wearing them long and sharp was a fashion for boys at that time. And it did seem that sharp fingernails could make scratches.
I know that Blink has actually seen the autopsy photographs and would probably be able to make a much better guess than I could as to whether the scratches were from a weapon or fingernails or animals. It is hard to write all that out. Those poor little boys.
You would have to be more specific about which scratches, but yes, the linear scratches thought to be scratches from fingernails both on the lower back and waistband of one victim, and the ear scratches, likely were. That said, there are no aquatic indiginous species I am aware of that can hogtie.
B
And, yes. I meant all the nice things I said about you (Mom3.0) I am in awe of people who can have discussions and stay fair to both sides. It is a rare gift and one that you display every time you post here.
Peace, friend.
Its all good Dy- I did not take offense.
I wish someone could answer these questions too. I wish there were better photos taken in this case- of all the witnesses- all the POI’s of the 3 and of all the evidence.
With respect,Blink and all
To my knowledge, I have never encountered anyone, anywhere ever suggesting the possibility of turtles or any other species except a homo-sapien murdered and hogtied these innocent little boys.
For the life of me I do not understand why so many think that the theory of animal predation/necrophagia is so outlandish a possibility.
I get that most feel these 3 men murdered the boys- believe me, I get that-
Someone sure as heck did,
Noone is disputing that,
that still does not mean animal predation/necrophagia did not occur once these poor little victims were dead and dying, thrown away in a filthy drainage ditch.
With as many mistakes which were made in the investigation- in the evidence gathering, in the recovery of the boys – in the securing of evidence- and the documenting/photographing of evidence- it is almost beyond me why some seem to take offense to other possibilities being looked into as to the circumstances of each and every fact of this case..
It is my opinion that anyone who ever followed the Caylee Anthony case realizes what nature and submersion in water can do to a human body. Caylee was in those swampy woods for months- these boys were in those woods and in that ditch for hours- in the dark of night-
We know the lake knife was not the murder weapon- we dont know what the murder weapon was- it may have been a blunt object- it may have been a board with nails – it may have been an icepick-
or it may have been a combination of weapons
We can only guess-
Perhaps the boys were beaten about the face and head with fists alone, or perhaps other instruments were used… there were no broken bones, only fractured skulls- the other injuries may have been done with finger nails, they may have been done with an icepick, and they could be attributed to animals
Nomatter the murder weapon used- these boys were still brutally murdered- nomatter if animals got to the boys after they were thrown in the ditch does not in any way make this murder any less senseless- brutal or deplorable-
AJMO
Mom 3.0, to my knowledge, the animal predation theory is largely lauded by those believing it caused the death and or wounding of Chris Byers. Because Chris did not drown, for the theory to even be applicable or effective, the defense offered it for a new trial, I get that.
I have always conceded I believe there was aquatic predation in the remains of the boys, and I largely agree with Dr. Haskell’s findings in that one is limited to identifying exactly what is indiginous, period. Dr. Spitz’s believed the injuries to Steve Branch’s face were canine-like. I trust I do not need to revert to the whole brain dust debacle, lol.
It is the combination of experts jockeying for the right blend of cause of death and animal involvement that I find infuriating. My bad, I know, no #3 out yet to expand, however..
I do not think you can make the predation comparisons in this case and Caylee’s remains- Caylee was deceased when she was placed in the bog, 2 boys were about to succomb to their injuries and ultimately drown where they were recovered the next day.
Caylee was placed in that mess to rot in the very early stages of decomp and it was not under water.
The large animal predation on her little body that ultimately disbursed large amounts of her spine ( being respectfully loose in this information) and hip did not occur in this case- all 3 boys were extracted from the ditch, none were floating or visible- that alone makes any significant predation unlikely. There was no tracks, and although Bryn Ridge was in that water 45 minutes, he never saw a single turtle, or any “animal” for that matter. What is the likelyhood of that if there truly was a food source for them?
My point is, the animal predation possibility is not to alleviate the brutalization of whatever instrument was used, it has been used (unsuccessfully) to alter the savagery- that is what I think you are sensing.
Do not make me go into the whole blowfly v larvae comparison: teasing.
For me, I get that folks can be undecided as to who caused the deaths, but I fail to see how anyone can review the autopsy reports and find any one of these boys died via or sustained major post mortem injury.
Lastly- I got an email with personal pics at the Sundance premier with Damien, Mark Byers and Pam Hobbs embracing.
New suits, big smiles and dead babies. What a party.
Did I mention I hate this case?
B
@Blink
I hate this case too and honestly wish I never heard of it. It’s all about money now and celebrity. The victims have been long forgotten and barely get a mention in the three PL films.
I only heard of the case last April and became a supporter after watching the 2 PL films. Not long after Jessie’s Bible confession was released and I became a non. I honestly can’t understand how anybody can read a confession by an already convicted child killer given voluntarily to his attorney in private and not be turned.
Supporters will blame everyone but the WM3, but apart from the ridiculous manhole theory they will not give the how or the why. One person could not have done this crime, no way. Hobbs taking the kids out of the woods, killing them in a shed or stashing their bodies in a manhole and then going back into the woods is ridiculous. It would take too much time and he would have to park his truck outside the woods and dump the bodies one by one without being spotted.
I would honestly love to read more theories by supporters that are based in fact and not speculation.
Anyway, this case will continue to get more ridiculous as the months roll by.
@Blink
I agree with you on the one man theory.I will not take the time to go see or watch this movie. I am sick of the case. This movie as taken a turn for the worst. I thought the point of paradise lost movies were to show the injustice of the court system. And now the movie is accusing Mr. Hobbs. That reminds me of a witch hunt again. Why didnt they just turn over the evidence to the DA and leave it out of the movie. Sounds like they want a trial of the media. This does just the opposite of a fair trial. If the children were tied up with their own shoe strings a hair from Mr Hobbs would not be a mystery The chidren played at their house. The turtles making the injuries Are we to believe that the turtles attack the children in that way in one night.I already knew that the people were testifying in court for the reward. Many lied that is why everyone thought it was a unfair trial. And there was many doubts.
This is just sad that they took something good and made a bad thing. Exposing injustice and they doing it themself. Shame on you Petter Jackson .
@Matt I, too, would like to see supporters of the 3 propose some theories of another suspect based on fact and not speculation.
@Blink I’m glad that your site still has the picture of three little boys who matter in this entire tragedy and not any pictures of the farce at Sundance. Shame on them.
Hello Blink, My ever faithful teacher and friend-
Thank you for sharing your thoughts again with me- Mom3 your very own bothersome “kid” who must always ask Why? Why? Why? & What about this?
Before I respond, I want to make sure that you and your readers know that I am not disagreeing with you- in fact I think it is possible that everything you say is just what occurred-
But since I am that poster that is always questioning everything- I know you understand that I must research and find my own way to the truth…
I Hope that makes sense. Thanks Blink for always allowing me to ask the questions and for giving me the space to paste my research from my journey to the truth.
Hugs and heads up -some posts are coming with links
AJMO
You wrote:
“Mom 3.0, to my knowledge, the animal predation theory is largely lauded by those believing it caused the death and or wounding of Chris Byers. Because Chris did not drown, for the theory to even be applicable or effective, the defense offered it for a new trial, I get that.”
I understand this Blink.
Let me try to explain where I am coming from—I am not favoring one expert over another- I am researching and trying to figure out what occurred- I am educating myself to all aspects of this case
I am not an expert nor do I play one on tv.
I have been unable to conclude what happened, and I am weighing each expert & each bit of info along with each theory… trying to get there. It seems it may come down to which expert you choose to believe- as I think all are basing their findings on real facts and real science. They are just coming up with different conclusions.
I have recently watched the PL films- I have not seen the autopsy photos-firsthand- But I have studied those that were shown in the films-
So , I understand I am at a disadvantage-as all I can go off of are screenshots taken from these films-and some stills, I have found on the internet- in addition- I have reviewed all the autopsies
-I understand why you and the prosecution believe what you do regarding Chris Byers injuries as well as those to Chris and Mike-.
I agree it is possible that you all are correct in every opinion you hold.
It is possible that these injuries were caused by a weapon such as a knife or iceax scraping and cutting.
It is possible that the handle of such an instrument was used to bash the victims on the head- it is possible that little Chris was castrated before death with a knife- in just the way you believe it was done.
Yet, according to my research,I also think it is possible that Chris was unconscious just like the other boys probably were when they were thrown in the water- I believe it is also possible that Chris was “dead” when he was placed in the water – and its even possible that the other two were “dead” too- Death is not an exact science-
http://biologydaily.com/biology/Brain_death
Could they have been unconscious? could they have been suffering from hypothermia before they reached the water and/or after? Could one or more have experienced a mammalian response?
http://biologydaily.com/biology/Hypothermia
and
http://biologydaily.com/biology/Hypothermia
Because of my research, I think it is at least possible that any of these things occurred. It is a proven fact that drowning is one of the hardest rulings a medical examiner can make, as to cause of death-
Especially when other injuries are present- water masks a great deal- injuries can appear to have been perimortem due to water seepage- and due to the heart still beating in cases of unconsciousness/hypothermia/ etc.
My research shows With the skull fractures- it is hard to say as many of the findings attributed to drowning are also present in drowning deaths. There really is no definite test that an examiner can make that shows a 100% conclusion of drowning-
“Washer woman” hands and feet can occur in live and dead bodies that have been submerged-
frothy material and vomitus can occur in cases of severe head trauma and spinal injuries.
Evacuation can also occur in these instances- Drowning victims will often have leaves and debris clutched in their hands- Mike had a black cloth- where did that come from none were found in the area? Drowning victims will often be found in fetal positions with the heads down. Lividity will occur in the neck, face and chest- Rigor may not appear until the body has been removed from the water,. The onset of rigor can be hastened if there has been intense physical activity shortly before death. Temps of water etc play in to this as well.
So much was not done appropriately in this case- which would have led to the examiners – being unable to make absolute conclusions-
An examiner must look for signs in the eyes-and ears-
If the victim actually died on land – there will be a line in there eyes which will mark the “air” and the wetness of being submerged- almost all drowning victims eyes will appear glassy and life like-
Victims could have succumbed to “dry” or wet drowning– water in lungs/ airways stomach etc vs no water-Etc
What I am saying, is through my careful research- which I could have misinterpreted as I am not a pathologist – I think everyone, even the experts to a great extent have been reduced to speculation and the findings are based upon their own best educated guesses-
AJMO
Cont Part 2
oops that last link should have read
http://biologydaily.com/biology/Mammalian_diving_reflex
Blink, I think Because of the mistakes made in this case- It is almost impossible to determine Anything for certain
We can agree with one expert over another, but none of us can really know. Too much was lost in this case- before the experts even arrived on the scene.
I think In truth we cant even say if the victims drowned or if they all suffered solely from effects from the severe head trauma and were already dead when placed in the water-
Drowning victims will often have leaves and debris clutched in their hands- Mike had a black cloth- where did that come from none were found in the area?
Anything is possible in this case- unfortunately-
here are some of the links I reviewed:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070529074724.htm
and
http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=101&Itemid=125
and
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Drowning+investigations.-a0143342211
I have more I’ll try and include them at the end- just so you know why I am so undecided.
Thanks again
AJMO
cont Part 3
You wrote:
“I have always conceded I believe there was aquatic predation in the remains of the boys, and I largely agree with Dr. Haskell’s findings in that one is limited to identifying exactly what is indiginous, period.”
- I know you have, and the truth, for me- right now is this;
Despite everyones best efforts, despite the # of experts, we may never know exactly what happened- and none of us can say with 100% certainty what contributed to a specific injury
-
It is a fact that there were animal hairs found and it is a fact that the injuries to the boys were never tested for animal enzymes/diseases/ saliva etc.
You wrote:
“Dr. Spitz’s believed the injuries to Steve Branch’s face were canine-like. I trust I do not need to revert to the whole brain dust debacle, lol.”
I remember Dr Spitz and his testimony Blink, and I did not agree with it- but that really has no affect on my perceptions of this case- as I have independently researched on my own- including viewing thousands of photos of victims of animal necrophagia and predation- as well as researching drowning victims—passive and active in warm and cold water etc – In addition to that, I have also extensively researched forensic otontology as it relates to all species- such as raccoons and turtles and crayfish and muskrats and beavers etc which I have shared
You wrote:
“It is the combination of experts jockeying for the right blend of cause of death and animal involvement that I find infuriating. My bad, I know, no #3 out yet to expand, however..”
Blink, you could be right, and this could be just another redherring the well paid defense lawyers and experts came up with– I dont know- and if so, I can certainly understand your feelings-and I would feel like an idiot for spending so much time and effort trying to prove or disprove exactly what happened in the hours the little boys were missing- before their recovery.
But at the same time- I will know that I did my best for them- just like youve taught me- just as you and your team have, And I will still be here to read your third installment so that I can further educate myself-
and Ill still be asking why? and How come… Lol
AJMO
Part 4 cont
Hey Blink- i am trying to repost this one- I think the links are messing it up- ill add them later
Blink you wrote:
“I do not think you can make the predation comparisons in this case and Caylee’s remains- Caylee was deceased when she was placed in the bog, 2 boys were about to succomb to their injuries and ultimately drown where they were recovered the next day.”
“Caylee was placed in that mess to rot in the very early stages of decomp and it was not under water.”
Blink, perhaps you’re right- but the way I am looking at the comparison is:
We do not know for sure what animals were a factor in Caylees case-we can not say one way or the other what injuries they may have inflicted upon her remains in the hours immediately after her disposal- and beyond- and we can not know exactly how much time she spent submerged-but she was in water Blink- we just dont know how much of her was totally submerged- and we know they caused damage which confused the case-
You wrote:
“The large animal predation on her little body that ultimately disbursed large amounts of her spine ( being respectfully loose in this information) and hip did not occur in this case- all 3 boys were extracted from the ditch, none were floating or visible- that alone makes any significant predation unlikely.”
Blink, we dont know what animals were in and around the areas of the boys— as you and Dr Haskeell opined- but we do know the area would have made an ideal habitat for several species and we do know Arkansas is known for its raccoons- and we do have locals saying there were turtles and snakes etc.
I agree if there were large animals, they did not get the time to do much damage such as in Caylees case-
In my research of drowning victims in this case, I have learned quite alot- for instance the way a victim s body(both alive and dead) reacts to drowning varies-they will sink to the bottom, and rise and sink and twist and turn etc- it depends on the temps of the water and the currents of the water and the types of water- salt vs fresh etc as well as other factors such as but not limited to whether or not the drowning was passive or active the amount of body fat on the victim,-what they ate or didnt eat- – what was in their large intestine /small intestine, colon- etc- how much air they took in- whether there was head or spinal injuries – their age etc
AJMO
Part 5
you wrote:
“There was no tracks, and although Bryn Ridge was in that water 45 minutes, he never saw a single turtle, or any “animal” for that matter. What is the likelyhood of that if there truly was a food source for them?”
Again FTR You most certainly could be right Blink- maybe there were never any animals in the area- IDK-
I am not arguing against this being the truth- I am simply offering my opinion that despite Ridge and the other officers never seeing any signs of animals they could have been there- Animals in their habitats know how to hide and get out of the area- etc
Ridge testified that he wasnt looking for any animals, although he was worried about snakes- and none were caught in the screens-
As to No tracks- Well most of the area was covered in leaves and foliage and as a hunters wife I know you know that tracks are often hard to see and hard to recognize- even when someone is actively looking for them- and as we know Ridge walked up and downn the ditch as well as other people –which could have destroyed any signs/tracks-
Most of the animals would have been aquatic- and they would have swam away-
Turtles too- and unless you know what you are looking for, their tracks are hard to spot- and they camouflage themselves in mud and swim underwater- making themselves almost impossible to see-
http://tinyurl.com/84prxaaand
That is not to say they werent there or hadnt been there previously-
http://tinyurl.com/7wesz89
You wrote:
“My point is, the animal predation possibility is not to alleviate the brutalization of whatever instrument was used, it has been used (unsuccessfully) to alter the savagery- that is what I think you are sensing.”
Yes I agree, this could be why I am so determined to prove to myself that it cant be a factor- but as of yet- I have been unable- perhaps your next article will be the defining moment.
“Do not make me go into the whole blowfly v larvae comparison: teasing.”
Ha- Blinky, you know me, I rather like to discuss things till everyone else screams STOP- I find I learn more- but I get what you are saying and where you are coming from.
AJMO
COnt Part 6