The West Memphis Three HBO Paradise Lost Purgatory: Victims Parents Plea For No Oscar, Call Film Cruel Hoax
Beverly Hills, CA- Following an announcement that The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences is considering the HBO documentary Paradise Lost III : Purgatory, as one of 15 submissions being considered for an Oscar in the documentary category branch of AMPAS, chaired by Rob Epstein- Todd and Diana Moore took action.
The Moores are the parents of James Michael Moore, one of three eight your old victims murdered on May 3, 1993 along with Chris Byers and Stevie Branch. Within days of an exclusive series on the murders appearing on www.blinkoncrime.com which included the discovery of potential new evidence; the nearly 18 year old case that resulted in 9 previous convictions of three suspects took a radical turn.
On August 19th Jessie Misskelley, Damien Echols and Charles Jason Baldwin pled guilty to the murders of all 3 children via an Alford plea and were immediately released from jail as convicted murders on parole.
Paradise Lost III produced by Joe Berlinger and Bruce Sinofsky follows it’s predecessors I and II, released in 1996 after the initial convictions of the West Memphis 3.
Berlinger is a member of AMPAS, and has produced several unreleased documentaries of Hollywood A- listers including Charlize Theron, Hugh Jackman, Oprah Winfrey and Cameron Diaz.
Click below to read impassioned and unedited letter sent to Chairman Epstein.
The following is the unedited letter sent to Chairman Epstein by Todd and Diana Moore:
TODD MOORE
DIANA MOORE
PO Box 721
2004 Main St.
Hughes, AR 72348
November 22, 2011
Chairman Robert P. Epstein
AMPAS
Awards Office
8949 Wilshire Blvd
Beverly Hills CA 90211
Re: Paradise Lost III: Purgatory
Dear Chairman Epstein and members of the Documentary Branch of the Academy:
We are Todd Moore and Dana Moore.
Our cherished eight-year-old son, Michael, was brutally murdered on May 5, 1993 by Jessie Misskelley, Damien Echols, and Jason Baldwin. Misskelley was tried and convicted in 1994. Baldwin and Echols were convicted by a separate jury later that year. All three entered Alford pleas to our son’s murder August 19, 2011. They are now, as they have been for the past 17 years, guilty as a matter of law. They have been guilty as a matter of fact since the moment water flooded Michael’s lungs after he was beaten, stripped, hogtied, and then discarded into a stream to drown.
Michael was the joy of our lives. In addition to our son, his murderers also tortured and slaughtered two other children, Christopher Byers and Stevie Branch. These three precious victims were classmates and friends, and their loss was a tragedy felt throughout the entire community.
We are horrified to learn that a documentary that glorifies Michael’s killers, Paradise Lost III: Purgatory, is among 15 documentaries being considered for an Academy Award. Because of public pressure that exploded due to gross misrepresentations of fact in two previous documentaries, Michael’s killers were unjustly able to enter into a plea agreement, were released from prison, and now pose additional threats to society. This third documentary further insulted the families of these three boys and may lead to further injustice. We implore the Academy not to reward our child’s killers and the directors who have profited from one of the greatest frauds ever perpetrated under the guise of a “documentary film.”
We realize that documentaries have a point of view and advocate a position to some degree or another. As with the two before it, this film crossed the line into a cruel hoax that had real-life consequences larger than even those of us who still mourn our horrific losses. It is not art. This film is cynical and exploitative deception that compounds our pain needlessly and rewards those who inflicted it. It and the two films that preceded it are simply tasteless tabloid entertainment presented as social commentary.
We are private individuals. The directors, Bruce Sinofsky and Joe Berlinger, are aware of this because we refused to participate in their last two films. We appeared solely in the first film because the directors lied and told us their purpose would be to “protect children.” You can imagine our shock and disgust when the first film opened with gruesome and gratuitous images of the crime scene and remained exploitative and salacious until the credits rolled. It did nothing to promote child welfare. It did everything to support child killers and to benefit monetarily from a ghastly crime.
We were hardly the only people Sinofsky and Berlinger misled or manipulated.
Consider what happened to John Mark Byers. He was Christopher Byers’ adoptive father. Confrontations between Mr. Byers and Echols’ supporters at hearings were staged. Of course, Berlinger and Sinofsky were there to film these episodes. Berlinger and Sinofsky would transport Mr. Byers to the hearings and wire him for sound beforehand. Furthermore, Berlinger and Sinofsky maneuvered Mr. Byers and Echols’ supporters in order to film the anticipated confrontations. Later, after the cameras were packed away, Mr. Byers acted like a different person. Instead of being belligerent, he was affable. When asked about his change in demeanor, Mr. Byers stated that he was supposed to act that way when the cameras were present. Mr. Byers was quoted as saying he received $500 per hour for “exclusive interviews.”
These contrived “confrontations” and other distortions caused many viewers to believe Mark was the “real killer.” It had a terrible impact on his life. We brought this to the attention of HBO. Our complaint was ignored because these falsehoods proved lucrative.
The complete list of distortions would be a long one. The above example is illustrative of the manipulation and distortions that are prevalent throughout the entire Paradise Lost franchise. The films are bereft of ethics, principles, or factual accuracy and basis.
Publicity from the first two films did generate millions of dollars in donations. Much of that money went toward the defense’s investigation of the case. Not a single piece of exculpatory evidence was produced. In other words, between $10,000,000 and $20,000,000 has been collected, although no one knows the exact amount collected or how it was spent. In eighteen years, nothing was found to clear the names of the actual killers. Late last year, the windfall that went toward the legal defense resulted in the granting of an evidentiary hearing which was set to be held a few weeks from now. Instead, the murderers opted to initiate a plea negotiation with the State. As a result, they remain convicted of the deaths of three children.
We have to note that this situation is similar to the one that confronted the Academy when Capturing the Friedmans was nominated for Best Documentary Film of 2003. Two of the Friedmans’ sexual abuse victims presented another Open Letter to the Academy. Capturing the Friedmans had much more artistic merit and integrity than Paradise Lost III: Purgatory, yet it did not receive the award. The Academy made the right decision then, and we pray it does so this time as well.
Sincerely,
Todd Moore Diana Moore
cc: (via eMail)
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Part 6
Counseling Sessions and Social Security Application, January-February 1993
The Exhibit 500 documents include nothing from October through December 1992, but they pick up again in January 1993 when Echols resumed counseling. His new counselor was Sherry Dockins, a social worker with the East Arkansas Regional Mental Health Center. After their initial session on January 5, Dockins wrote this summary:
18 yr old single white male referred to MHC by Charter Lakeside after his discharge from their program. Damien was hospitalized due to suicidal [ideation? intent?]. Prior to hospitalization he was arrested for terroristic threatening and assault & he is currently on probation for these charges.
Damien reports his problems begin age 8 when his parents divorced and soon remarried. “They were constantly fighting — tried to ignore it but finally started fighting back.” Reports stepfather was arrested for sexually abusing his sister x3 months ago. Mother divorced him and remarried father. Sister, mother and father currently live in Portland, Oregon. He has little contact with family. Currently lives with stepfather — Jack Echols because “its the only way I could live here in Ark.” They do not get along — but — rarely see each other. Damien is planning to move in with girl friend and her mother when they get an apartment. Reports he and Domini (GF) have been together for long time? Damien wants to live in West Memphis because of his friends and “its where I belong”.
Describes self as feeling “neutral/nothing” most of the time. Denies current suicidal/homicidal ideation. Reports history of self mutilation — cutting self with knives/razors. Last time was 3 months ago. Denies symptoms of depression “I usually don’t smile”. He quit school in 9th grade (this year) because he was not allowed to return to his previous school (Marion High School). Reports sleeping most of day and then going to Domini’s house. He has a part-time job with Alderson Roofing at night. Relates that he tends to “trance out” when by himself. He has done this since the 5th grade — “it feels good”. States he does not like to come out of this state because “I have to deal with what’s going on”. Reports he thinks alot about life after death — “I want to go where the monsters go”.
Reports history of alcohol/drug usage — coke, acide, pot, alcohol. Denies current usage. History of psychiatric tx — has received inpatient tx at Charter of Little Rock 2x, St. Anthony’s in Portland, Oregon for susbance abuse (last year).
Reports being harassed by local authorities as “they think I’m a Satanic leader.” He admits being caught with Satanic items and with handwritten books about witchcraft. Denies cult involvement. Is interested in witchcraft for past 8 years. He has tried to steal energy from someone else and influence others minds with witchcraft. States that he was able to do these things. Describes self as “pretty much hate the human race”. Relates that he feels people are in two classes — Sheep & Wolves (wolves eat the sheep).
Dressed in black, wearing silver cross and earring studs. Intense eye contact. (41-42)
Dockins filed an “Individual Progress Note” after their second session on January 13.
Damien reports one of his biggest problems that he would like to work on is being able to forgive others. When questioned about this he reports that he is very angry with family members and with other people that have “let him down”. He wants to be normal but feels that he has never been normal. … He discussed issues of power and control. He states that he could make things happen. He believes very much in magic. Damien stated “I don’t believe anything until its proven”. … Damien’s affect and mood was flat. He did not smile during the session. (48)
At their next session on January 19, Echols asked the counselor, “Mom told me to apply for disability — what do you think?” Dockins’ “Individual Progress Note” for this session is short but chilling.
Damien relates that he is trying to find a way to live on his own. He does not get along with step-father. Reveals a history of abuse as he talked of how he was treated as a child. Denies that this has influenced him stating “I just put it all inside.” Describes this as more than just anger — like rage. Sometimes he does “blow up”. Relates that when this happens the only solution is to “hurt someone”. Damien reports being told at the hospital that he could be another “Charles Manson or Ted Bundy”. When questioned on his feelings he states “I know I’m going to influence the world — people will remember me.” (50)
On January 20, psychiatrist David Erby filed a short “Individual Progress Note” based on his own session with Echols.
[Damien has] had three psychiatric hospitalizations. Each has been associated with anger, thoughts of killing others and thoughts of killing himself. He’s not currently suicidal or homicidal. He’s been on Tofronil 15 mg. at bedtime for about a year. He’s found that that’s been somewhat helpful. He’s not experiencing any side affects with it, he’s tried to stop it and had some discontinuation symptoms. We discussed that some tonight. (51)
On January 25, Sherry Dockins filed a longer “Individual Progress Note”.
Focus of today’s session is spent talking with Damien about his feelings of death. He brought with him to session a poem that he had written during the past week. The theme of this poem centered around death and power. Damien explained that he obtains his power by drinking blood of others. He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner. This is achieved by biting or cutting. He states “it makes me feel like a God”. Damien describes drinking blood as giving him more power and strength. He remembers doing this as far back as age 10. He does not remember where he learned to do this.
Damien believes that there is no God. He feels that society believes there is a God because society is weak. He wants very much to be all powerful. He wants very much to be in total control. We discussed how some of this is related to his experiences as a child. He acknowledges that some of this is related to his childhood abuse trauma issues but he feels that it is who he is now.
Damien relates that a spirit is now living with him. The spirit was put inside him last year. He indicates that a month ago the spirit decided to become part of him and he to become part of the spirit. This is reportedly a spirit of a woman who was killed by her husband. When questioned about how he feels with this spirit or what the difference is, Damien is able to relate that he feels stronger and more powerful with this spirit. He has not seen the spirit but does hear the spirit. In addition, he also reports conversations with demons and other spirits. This is achieved through rituals. He denies that he is satanic, seeing himself more as being involved in demonology.
It becomes more noticeable today in talking with Damien that he has many things from childhood that he simply does not remember. This is believed to be a dissociative response to trauma issues. Damien is agreeable to beginning to talk about what he experienced as a child that he remembers. He is also agreed to continue to discuss his issues with power and control as related to his practice of rituals. Therapist encouraged him to continue writing and to bring the writings into the sessions as a way of communicating his feelings.
A: Damien’s affect and mood today continued to be bland though there was more emotion when talking about drinking blood. (52-53)
Dockins filed a shorter “Individual Progress Note” on February 5.
S: Damien is seen today for a scheduled session. He is dressed completely in black and is noted to have cuts on his R arm and hand.
O: Damien relates that he cut his arm & hand as a way of permanently marking his skin. The name Domini is cut into his arm. Session continues focused on Damien’s self concept and image. Relates feeling very angry yesterday when running into previous girlfriend. “I controlled it — I can do anything”.
A: Affect and mood — flat (54)
The Exhibit 500 dossier includes no records of counseling sessions between February 5 and May 5, 1993. It’s unclear if Echols stopped going or if there’s another reason for the gap.
Exhibit 500 does include several documents associated with Damien Echols’ application for Social Security disability benefits in early February 1993. Echols claimed that his mental illness left him unable to work. In an application form dated 2/2/93, to the query “Describe your pain (or other symptoms)”, Echols wrote, “Mentally Disturbed”. (109)
A Supplemental Interview Outline form dated 2/2/93 requested various bits of personal information, family relationships and daily habits. For the query “Describe any changes in these things since your condition began”, Echols wrote, “I am a sociopath”. (111)
On a Disability Report form also dated 2/2/93, to the query “What is your disabling condition?”, Echols wrote, “I am going through treatment at the Mental Health Center and have been in several mental hospitals.” For “Explain how your condition now keeps you from working”, Echols wrote, “Because when I try to take a time out my employers don’t like it. Violent, medicine makes me sleepy, vomit & headaches”. (123)
A subsequent page on the Disability Report form requested information on hospitalizations. Echols listed his two Charter Hospital of Little Rock stays and under “Reason for Hospitalization” wrote, “Homicidal, suicidal, manic depression, schizophrenia, sociopathic”. Below that, Echols listed his stay at St. Anthony’s (sic) in Portland, Oregon. Under “Reason for Hospitalization” this time, Echols wrote, “Homicidal, suicidal, manic depression, schizophrenia, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, sociopathic”. (125)
The Social Security Administration determined that Echols was 100% disabled due to mental impairments. At the time of the murders, he was receiving full Social Security disability benefits.
Part 7
Counseling Sessions and Social Security Application, January-February 1993
The Exhibit 500 documents include nothing from October through December 1992, but they pick up again in January 1993 when Echols resumed counseling. His new counselor was Sherry Dockins, a social worker with the East Arkansas Regional Mental Health Center. After their initial session on January 5, Dockins wrote this summary:
18 yr old single white male referred to MHC by Charter Lakeside after his discharge from their program. Damien was hospitalized due to suicidal [ideation? intent?]. Prior to hospitalization he was arrested for terroristic threatening and assault & he is currently on probation for these charges.
Damien reports his problems begin age 8 when his parents divorced and soon remarried. “They were constantly fighting — tried to ignore it but finally started fighting back.” Reports stepfather was arrested for sexually abusing his sister x3 months ago. Mother divorced him and remarried father. Sister, mother and father currently live in Portland, Oregon. He has little contact with family. Currently lives with stepfather — Jack Echols because “its the only way I could live here in Ark.” They do not get along — but — rarely see each other. Damien is planning to move in with girl friend and her mother when they get an apartment. Reports he and Domini (GF) have been together for long time? Damien wants to live in West Memphis because of his friends and “its where I belong”.
Describes self as feeling “neutral/nothing” most of the time. Denies current suicidal/homicidal ideation. Reports history of self mutilation — cutting self with knives/razors. Last time was 3 months ago. Denies symptoms of depression “I usually don’t smile”. He quit school in 9th grade (this year) because he was not allowed to return to his previous school (Marion High School). Reports sleeping most of day and then going to Domini’s house. He has a part-time job with Alderson Roofing at night. Relates that he tends to “trance out” when by himself. He has done this since the 5th grade — “it feels good”. States he does not like to come out of this state because “I have to deal with what’s going on”. Reports he thinks alot about life after death — “I want to go where the monsters go”.
Reports history of alcohol/drug usage — coke, acide, pot, alcohol. Denies current usage. History of psychiatric tx — has received inpatient tx at Charter of Little Rock 2x, St. Anthony’s in Portland, Oregon for susbance abuse (last year).
Reports being harassed by local authorities as “they think I’m a Satanic leader.” He admits being caught with Satanic items and with handwritten books about witchcraft. Denies cult involvement. Is interested in witchcraft for past 8 years. He has tried to steal energy from someone else and influence others minds with witchcraft. States that he was able to do these things. Describes self as “pretty much hate the human race”. Relates that he feels people are in two classes — Sheep & Wolves (wolves eat the sheep).
Dressed in black, wearing silver cross and earring studs. Intense eye contact. (41-42)
Dockins filed an “Individual Progress Note” after their second session on January 13.
Damien reports one of his biggest problems that he would like to work on is being able to forgive others. When questioned about this he reports that he is very angry with family members and with other people that have “let him down”. He wants to be normal but feels that he has never been normal. … He discussed issues of power and control. He states that he could make things happen. He believes very much in magic. Damien stated “I don’t believe anything until its proven”. … Damien’s affect and mood was flat. He did not smile during the session. (48)
At their next session on January 19, Echols asked the counselor, “Mom told me to apply for disability — what do you think?” Dockins’ “Individual Progress Note” for this session is short but chilling.
Damien relates that he is trying to find a way to live on his own. He does not get along with step-father. Reveals a history of abuse as he talked of how he was treated as a child. Denies that this has influenced him stating “I just put it all inside.” Describes this as more than just anger — like rage. Sometimes he does “blow up”. Relates that when this happens the only solution is to “hurt someone”. Damien reports being told at the hospital that he could be another “Charles Manson or Ted Bundy”. When questioned on his feelings he states “I know I’m going to influence the world — people will remember me.” (50)
On January 20, psychiatrist David Erby filed a short “Individual Progress Note” based on his own session with Echols.
[Damien has] had three psychiatric hospitalizations. Each has been associated with anger, thoughts of killing others and thoughts of killing himself. He’s not currently suicidal or homicidal. He’s been on Tofronil 15 mg. at bedtime for about a year. He’s found that that’s been somewhat helpful. He’s not experiencing any side affects with it, he’s tried to stop it and had some discontinuation symptoms. We discussed that some tonight. (51)
On January 25, Sherry Dockins filed a longer “Individual Progress Note”.
Focus of today’s session is spent talking with Damien about his feelings of death. He brought with him to session a poem that he had written during the past week. The theme of this poem centered around death and power. Damien explained that he obtains his power by drinking blood of others. He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner. This is achieved by biting or cutting. He states “it makes me feel like a God”. Damien describes drinking blood as giving him more power and strength. He remembers doing this as far back as age 10. He does not remember where he learned to do this.
Damien believes that there is no God. He feels that society believes there is a God because society is weak. He wants very much to be all powerful. He wants very much to be in total control. We discussed how some of this is related to his experiences as a child. He acknowledges that some of this is related to his childhood abuse trauma issues but he feels that it is who he is now.
Damien relates that a spirit is now living with him. The spirit was put inside him last year. He indicates that a month ago the spirit decided to become part of him and he to become part of the spirit. This is reportedly a spirit of a woman who was killed by her husband. When questioned about how he feels with this spirit or what the difference is, Damien is able to relate that he feels stronger and more powerful with this spirit. He has not seen the spirit but does hear the spirit. In addition, he also reports conversations with demons and other spirits. This is achieved through rituals. He denies that he is satanic, seeing himself more as being involved in demonology.
It becomes more noticeable today in talking with Damien that he has many things from childhood that he simply does not remember. This is believed to be a dissociative response to trauma issues. Damien is agreeable to beginning to talk about what he experienced as a child that he remembers. He is also agreed to continue to discuss his issues with power and control as related to his practice of rituals. Therapist encouraged him to continue writing and to bring the writings into the sessions as a way of communicating his feelings.
A: Damien’s affect and mood today continued to be bland though there was more emotion when talking about drinking blood. (52-53)
Dockins filed a shorter “Individual Progress Note” on February 5.
S: Damien is seen today for a scheduled session. He is dressed completely in black and is noted to have cuts on his R arm and hand.
O: Damien relates that he cut his arm & hand as a way of permanently marking his skin. The name Domini is cut into his arm. Session continues focused on Damien’s self concept and image. Relates feeling very angry yesterday when running into previous girlfriend. “I controlled it — I can do anything”.
A: Affect and mood — flat (54)
The Exhibit 500 dossier includes no records of counseling sessions between February 5 and May 5, 1993. It’s unclear if Echols stopped going or if there’s another reason for the gap.
Exhibit 500 does include several documents associated with Damien Echols’ application for Social Security disability benefits in early February 1993. Echols claimed that his mental illness left him unable to work. In an application form dated 2/2/93, to the query “Describe your pain (or other symptoms)”, Echols wrote, “Mentally Disturbed”. (109)
A Supplemental Interview Outline form dated 2/2/93 requested various bits of personal information, family relationships and daily habits. For the query “Describe any changes in these things since your condition began”, Echols wrote, “I am a sociopath”. (111)
On a Disability Report form also dated 2/2/93, to the query “What is your disabling condition?”, Echols wrote, “I am going through treatment at the Mental Health Center and have been in several mental hospitals.” For “Explain how your condition now keeps you from working”, Echols wrote, “Because when I try to take a time out my employers don’t like it. Violent, medicine makes me sleepy, vomit & headaches”. (123)
A subsequent page on the Disability Report form requested information on hospitalizations. Echols listed his two Charter Hospital of Little Rock stays and under “Reason for Hospitalization” wrote, “Homicidal, suicidal, manic depression, schizophrenia, sociopathic”. Below that, Echols listed his stay at St. Anthony’s (sic) in Portland, Oregon. Under “Reason for Hospitalization” this time, Echols wrote, “Homicidal, suicidal, manic depression, schizophrenia, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, sociopathic”. (125)
The Social Security Administration determined that Echols was 100% disabled due to mental impairments. At the time of the murders, he was receiving full Social Security disability benefits.
Part 8
Doctor’s Appointment on May 5, 1993
Exhibit 500 includes one last counseling session. Damien Echols and his mother went to EARMHC on the morning of May 5, 1993, the day of the murders. A physician (signature difficult to decipher) talked to Damien, renewed his Imipramine prescription and filed a handwritten Physician’s Progress Report. In the Exhibit 500 dossier, this report on Echols’ 5/5/93 counseling session (page 61) was photocopied at an angle such that the first few words of some lines are cut off. (Out of 509 pages in the dossier, this was the only page misaligned in this way.) Here’s what we can read:
- – – – – – – – – t of Dr. Erby on 1-20-93. He
- – – – – – – – ut at times he is impulsive
- – – – – – – things that may be harmful to
- – – – – – He has impulses to do strange
- – – – – rmful things to himself. He
- – – – es suicidal thoughts. He says
- – – kes to read, swim, playing pool,
- – likes to work with animals, snakes,
- zards & spiders. He is bothered if
- nakes are killed even if they are poison.
- e has not seriously considered a vocation.
- he mother seems dedicated, but insecure.
He seems to enjoy people being concerned about him.
A few hours after this session, Damien Echols acted on one of his impulses to do strange and harmful things.
Conclusion
Confronted by material from Echols’ psychiatric records, WM3 supporters often respond, “OK, that proves he had problems, but it doesn’t prove he killed anyone.” That’s true. But this material does prove many things.
It proves that people who considered Echols dangerous, violent and potentially homicidal in 1993 had very good reasons for doing so. This was not a fantasy concocted by stupid Bible Belt rednecks who thought wearing black, listening to heavy metal and practicing Wicca meant someone was evil.
It proves that West Memphis law enforcement officials, faced with a bizarre mutilation homicide, were entirely justified in including Echols on their list of people to question.
It proves that the profilers who worked for the defense on appeal, Brent Turvey and John Douglas, were either dishonest or incompetent when they dismissed Damien Echols as a possible killer.
It proves that professional journalists who have written puff pieces about Damien Echols for People, Rolling Stone, the New York Times, GQ and elsewhere have failed to do even minimal research.
It proves that people who say “I was just like Damien Echols at that age” have no clue what they’re talking about. (If you read this whole page and still believe you’re just like Damien Echols, please get some psychiatric help before you kill a bunch of people.)
Cont part 2
Matt-
You wrote:
you hide things like Jessie’s violence against kids-
I have not hid Jesse’s violence- where you hold up these behaviors to attempt to show JM as a violent out of control “thug” _ I do not and can not
JM was a developmentally delayed kid with mental challenges-
He hung out with kids often times who were younger then him- Those “acts of violence” did not come from JM being a despicable out of control thug -they came from his improper reactions to these situations- most likely as a result of his challenges.
Could Jesse have killed these children because of his temper and inability to react appropriately to rage? Yes – just such a scenario could have played out with Mike, Chris and Steve- which led Jesse to kill them.
- but his confessions that you keep touting -and the evidence does not point to just such a scenario.
Other things I am accused of hiding-
Damien’s mental history-
I have never hid DE history- I have only shared my experiences and perspectives from having worked with adolescents like DE- this “history” was just that “history”- it is NOT a blueprint to a triple child murderer.
and Jason choking his little brother.
Matt- I have never hid this information- infact it was I who first linked to the journal entries of Jasons here on BOC- I gave my perspectives as a teacher as a mother –
In summary- Jason was pissed at his brother- he reacted poorly – he felt justified in his behavior- – Like most teens who overreact to a younger sibling defying them and ruining their things- was it right? no-
But one instance of Jason physically restraining his brother- in a choke hold- does not a murderer make- if it did- billions of older brothers and cousins and uncles would have to be locked up for murder.
You wrote:
People new to the case are blinded by the documentaries and supporters lies.
I know you called me a supporter- again I am not- I have NEVER deceived anyone IRT my research and thoughts in this case.
I have shared the research and my thoughts and my concerns that is all-
I can not speak to the documentaries blinding anyone- because from reading others critiques– BOTH sides and all fence sitters- they all have a different perspective after watching these films- Do I think they are Oscar worthy? No- but that fact has no bearing on the truth.
Lots of things contribute to peoples “blindness” when reviewing this case- the least of it is derived from reading a website or article or watching a movie-
You wrote:
The biggest misconception of all is that the WM3 were three teenagers who were picked on because they wore black and listened to Metallica.
I think these 3 were picked on – but if you are speaking IRT why they were investigated ect-
-I agree with you up to a certain point-
At the trial- the prosecution used all this and more- song lyrics, albums ETC to show the Totality of the evidence was they were guilty of satanic misguided cult ritual killings-
They were wrong
You wrote:^
^Who was Jessie Misskelley in 1993?
^He was a ninth-grade dropout who worked odd jobs.
-Yes he was- and this was because?
A he was a “thug”
B because he was not excelling in the educational system most likely as a result of his disabilities
^He lived in a three-bedroom trailer with his father and his father’s latest girlfriend, though he frequently slept elsewhere.
-Yes he certainly did -like on the night before the murders also like frequently at Vickis
^He got wasted most days.
-Most days really? He probably did….IDK
He also was most days cleaning other peoples trailers and helping them out by fixing their cars and by doing odd jobs for free
And by baby-sitting their children for free-
^He had tattoos reading “FTW” (for “Fuck the World”), “AH” (an ex-girlfriend’s initials), “NWA” and “Bitch”, plus a skull & dagger.
Who gives a rats patookie if he had a tattoo that read f- the world? Or any of the other tattoos you seem to see as a precursor to triple murder- –
I mean seriously, if having a self made tattoo as a 17 year old male in the poor side of Arkansas in 1993 was a sign of a “thug” or a murderer to be- or if drinking or having a stepmom and fist fights is a sign of a murderer to be-by golly they should have just done a sweep of the trailer parks and locked them all up-
Matt I can see you care about the victims the same as I do, and I can see you are convinced of their guilt, where as I have reasonable doubt..You believe your opinions are right- they could be- but having said that-
They are only your opinions
There are other ways of looking at this same information which you believe illustrated JM being a thug, and they too- in fact could be the truth, could they not?
Cont Part 3
AJMO SAME AS ALWAYS
Peace
hello again Marr- hope your still with me and not screaming stop-
I realize my posts are long- – an editor I am not.
You wrote:
^He had had numerous run-ins with law enforcement.
-I am positive he did- as did many lower income teens with too much time on their hands- especially those who were fighters and who were apt to drink and add to that those who had poor coping skills….-
Most assuredly so for kids who were developmentally delayed- mentally challenged and had other possible disabilities- which would have most likely led them to react to all situations in a less then appropriate manner –in fact most likely with anger and a temper which would most likely end in some form of destruction or violence
Does knowing any of this mean that Jesse is innocent? no- he in fact could be the killer-
But having said that – none of this is evidence leading to any one having committed these murders- other wise there would be proof that 97% of the teens in the area did it as well.
^At a pretrial suppression hearing on January 13, 1994, the prosecution documented four occasions when Misskelley had been read his Miranda rights: sometime in 1988, twice in late October 1992, and in March 1993.
-Okay- so he was mirandized- a number of times, if he was developmentally delayed ETC -this does not mean he understood them- and just because a person is mirandized does not mean they are guilty for the crime, does it?
^(There was no mention at this hearing of what exactly Misskelley was accused of doing on these occasions.) In 1988 he received probation for stealing flags from school (Blood of Innocents, 165).
-Holy Smokes he took flags from the school? What a “thug-“ if the other unmentioned crimes were much like this – He needed to be put away IMMEDIATELY –not
Did Jesse Misskeely commit all these juvenile crimes alone? If not then police needed to go pick up the others who were involved as they could have killed these kids too, if they were going by your opinions alone right?
^And his violent streak landed him in trouble with juvenile authorities on numerous occasions.
-I am sure it did, as despite the # of times it became apparent that JM needed help with his coping skills and with his anger mangement skills due most likely to his mental diagnosis- he never got that help -did he? Unlike DE…
History of Violence
^Jessie Misskelley liked to fight. In some cases, he liked to beat up people younger and weaker than himself.
-Matt, again I am not giving excuses for Jesse behaviors, I am simply giving a different perspective on those behaviors.-
Have you ever worked with developmentally delayed or mentally challenged individuals?
I have.
They often times react to situations in much the same manner-
They have little or no concept of lashing out violently when they are provoked- it bears little consequence to them at the time whether a person is female or male-
They simply react.
It is hard to tell what will provoke them-
That is why family members and those who work with them are trained to recognize signs of pending event…- they are also taught de-escalation techniques and all other protocols to make sure the individual is safe and all those who they come in contact are safe-
-
Most of these individuals are described as having a temper a bad temper
Those excerpts you brought up – if you had ever worked with children and adolescents with these types of disabilities you would understand that each story in fact illustrates a person who is dealing with these handicaps without help-
Jesses family from an early age should have been trained to deal with their sons needs and his issues.
They should have all had a support group and doctors and/or social workers who should have helped them learn/understand their childs diagnosis, behaviors etc-
Without help these individuals WILL have runins with the law that is common- especially when their family sees it as almost a right of passage-
Just because JM had other run ins with the law and had been read his Miranda rights on several occasions does not mean that he jilled these kids or that he did it because he was a “thug”
As these individuals age- they are often times drawn to alcohol and drug use- it is common- especially if their family partakes- most teens in the same situation as Jesse- without being disabled also drink and act out- it is common but most are not murderers-
There are teens who are “thugs” there are teens that are mean and who bully and there are those who murder- but nothing I have read- leads me to see Jesse as such-
Could he have killed these boys? yes
But he could also just be a teen with challenges- who is innocent of the crimes- IDK because none of this information you have supplied is evidence of his guilt in these murders.
AJMO
Cont Part 4
Those excerpts you brought up in fact illustrate JM was not a “thug” but a kid who was not functioning as a “normal” level – developmentally- mentally & emotionally-
“He gets so mad, he’s capable of hurting someone,” Shelbia [Misskelley, Jessie's stepmother] told the social worker. …
Yes this is common
also said Jessie had a habit of breaking windows, and once required several stitches to his left hand after he punched a window in a fit of anger.
Yes this type of situation would be common
“Mrs. Misskelley reported Jessie does not own up to his wrongs,” the report said, “that he always blames someone else.
This too is part of the symptoms of a individual suffering from a mental disability – even one as common as adhd
She denies Jessie becomes physical with she (sic) or her husband but will clench his fist and take his anger out on someone else or something slike breaking the windows. Mrs. Misskelley replied, ‘I don’t think he can control it,’ referring to his temper. ‘He needs some help.’” (163-164)
Yes YES YES- These are all common behaviors and yes this boy needed help- his family needed help they should have been helped.
A Memphis Commercial Appeal profile from June 5, 1993, described Misskelley as “Tough, a Bit Troubled, but Kind to Kids”.
YES YES AND YES-
The article quoted several neighbors who called him “respectful” and “well-mannered”, but also noted his violent streak:
YES YES YES
Misskelley had a temper when pushed, McNease said. YES YES
“He was a fighter,” he said. “If you picked on him, he would bop you in the mouth.
YES- because JM was not helped and given the proper ways to deal with things he resorted to fighting- he also was a fighter because it is one of the only ways he could find praise- He was a scraper and he was
good at it-
“He whipped a grown man right out there the other day,” McNease said, pointing to the driveway to his shop. “If it hadn’t been for Big Jessie stepping in to stop it, he would have hurt that man bad.”
YEP YEs- this is common-
Does this information mean that Jesse did not kill these boys no- but it certainly is not evidence that he did nor is it evidence that he was a “thug”
Cont Part 5 I think Sheesh…sorry for the length.
AJMO
part 5 cont
Matt-
You wrote:
^
In March 1993, a 13-year-old girl named Tiffany Allen filed a police report charging Jessie Misskelley with punching her in the face. Allen described the incident in a later police interview:
We had gotten in to an argument, and he had been spreading a rumor around that he was having sexual intercourse with me to all these people, and I confronted him with it, and he kept saying all this stuff. So I slapped him and whenever he went away and everything,
–
Matt again Misskelly although he was a teen- seems to have been a teen who was NOT functioning at the level of a “normal” seventeen yearold-
He was SUPPOSEDLY spreading rumors about this girl- That is WRONG -but it is common-
This girl confronted JM-he kept saying all this “stuff” so she slapped him-
Well in a court of law this girl could have been taken in for assault-
She hit him- Did he hit her back? It seems not…
and for a year I didn’t hear anything from him. And two weeks ago sombody came up to me and said that he had been looking for me.
So obviously both sides and all those around them were “feeding the fire” as it were… which is NOT good
^And so I just didn’t worry about,—
She didnt talk smack or anything? like say -Well let him keep talking Smack and My boyfriend will kick his butt? No ofcourse not- she “just didnt worry about it…”
^ and one day I was walking through the park and he was at the road and …
And what? Was something said to him? Was something said by him? And what?
^he came up to me he started running at me.
He came up to her? Okay and what happened?
^He started running at me…
Running at you why? How? if he already “came up to you”?
^And my boyfriend stepped in front of me
Really so she wasnt alone…. and up until this point, nothing was said by anyone?? But JM charged at her? Shes With her boyfriend but nothing is said or done by them…?
Carl never said anything or did anything no?
And then
^and he hit Carl …
So he hit Carl- Carl never made the first move? JM hit him for stepping in front of her? Carl never pushed him or laid a finger on him? She certainly doesnt say so, so it must be that JM did all this because he was a thug? Certainly not due to his disabilities in anyway?
Hmmm seems alot of details are left out of this account No?
^and then he hit me.
He hit her then? Why? Did she try to step in between two guys fighting? Did she jump into the altercation?
He hit her and then what happened?
^And we started to walk away,
Okay She/they immediately started walking away and nothing was said Carlo got up and never attempted to continue the fight?
^and he started coming after us again,
Why it sounds like JM was totally reacting at this point- seeing red as it were- (which again isnt uncommon with this diagnosis)-
Does that make it right of course not- but it it certainly doesnt make JM a thug or a murderer
^so we ran and his, a until one of my friends parents came and got us and took me to my house.
So a rational adult arrived to separate you and allowed tJesse to de- esculate- yay for those parents…
Next-
^ States that about 4 or 5 months ago in Highland Trailer Park there was a little girl — 5 or 6 yrs old — that was throwing rocks — one accidentally hit Jesse — Jesse chased the little girl and threw a rock and hit her in the head. The little girl was crying and Jesse was laughing. Her name was Paula — they don’t live in Highland anymore — they moved about 1 month ago. They were renting a house trailer from David De???. The girl’s mother called the Police and a deputy came out and talked to Jesse. Jesse told his dad about it but his dad didn’t say anything to him about it.
AGAIN I already addressed this event- Jesse is a developmentally delayed 17 yearold- he was hit by a rock he was probably mad and a little hurt-and he immediately and inappropriately acted out and chased the little girl who hurt him- hit her with a rock- he laughed at her crying -
The police were called and the issue was taken care of- sounds to me like even the police understood that Jesse was ” slow ” and that he was acting inappropriately because of this-
police talked to him- probably saying something like: You cant do that Jesse- you are much bigger than she is – next time something like this happens dont do this- tlak to her mom and dad- walk away…etc.
- Ofcourse this is not appropriate behavior- but it is not uncommon behavior with adolescents who share JM issues.
Just because it is common does not excuse it- but it certainly does not paint him as a “thug” or a murderer
And shouldnt be used as evidence that he is capable of murder-
Does this mean he is innocent?
NO again- he could have met up with Chris Mike and Steve and his rage could have gotten outofcontrol- BUT if this did happen I have seen no evidence of this….
Next:
^When he was eleven, he was accused of assaulting a young girl in Lakeshore. His parents claim Jessie had initially come to the girl’s aid after her boyfriend became abusive, but she jumped on his back when Jessie hit the young man. Jessie chased the girl, then hit her on the head with a rock or a brick. The girl “fell down and couldn’t get up,” according to the May 4, 1987, complaint by the girl’s mother. (163)
he was 11 gee-
This seems to be a different version of both altercations smooshed together- the little girl and the teen rumor girl and her boyfriend… it also seems to be the event I described earlier:
As for the 12 year old he punched- he was in the middle of a fist fight with another boy- she got in the middle trying to break it up-
Jesse turned around and punched her in the face- since he was not functioning at a normal 17 year old level it is not hard to see how this came about-
Next:
^And going back even further, Blood of Innocents reports that Misskelley “once stabbed a fourth-grade classmate in the mouth with a pencil” (160-161).
Really? I have no doubt that this event happened. Why did it happen? How did it come about was JM standing up for himself or for someoneelse which seems to be a common theme..was he in an argument in which he reacted impulsively?
Seems to me a little 4th grade developmentally delayed boy would have many of these occurrences in his “file” especially since JM was a “fighter” None of this means he is a “thug” or a murderer-
Does knowing any of this mean he is innocent? NO- he could have killed these 3 boys
Yet at the same time NONE of this is evidence of guilt either- but it is evidence of a failure to recognize JM was in need of resources and tools to aid him in dealing with his common bad behaviors stemming from his issues…
Thanks for your posts Matt an thanks for allowing me to give a different perspective.
AJMO
Blink whats up with Matt posting entire sections of a different site here?
Since when is that okay?
Although I appreciate the information- which I have read prior to everyone posting links- I can not see how it is appropriate to copy and past it all in its entirety-
You wrote Blink-
Mom 3.0- I apologize if I should know this, but have you ever listened to the taped confession?
I found listening to it gave me perspective I would not have had by just reading.
Yes Blink I listened to it- but it was early on in my research if you think it would help to review it I certainly will-
Unfortunately, the “bible confession” recording is not available.
Jessie Miskelley’s own attorney believed him.
I dont know if it can be said that he believed him, I think it can be said he was scared shitless over what to do –
Frankly Blink I do not care who believes this confession or not- I can respect their beliefs- but it in no way factors into my analysis of this Bible confession because when I review it- Nothing in it makes me think BY GOD HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH HE DID IT!
If I had no other exhibits or transcripts, that fact alone is highly compelling to me. Did he believe his conviction was flawed? Yes.
I understand why you feel this way but I do not-
Although I too believe his conviction was flawed- but again because JM lied and lied some more- I find his confessions- all of them- useless- because no one can say with any degree of certainty who did what or who was there- and on top of that no one can know where he got any of the “right” details
and other major details and times and places are wrong-
The facts about the Bible confession (which as you said wasnt taped as well as most of the interviews with LE before his interrogation and after his conviction-)
Doesn’t it continue to bother people that Jessie has not had an interview?
Why should it bother people- everyone keeps saying DE and JB should shut up- and as far as I can tell everyone is waiting for Jesse to reconfess-
IF his other confessions were false and due to other issues NOT related to actual guilt- what would it matter?
AJMO peace
1. It is my understanding that matt posted an non-copyrighted post from a forum, with permission and attrition. You are correct that copyrighted work absolutely falls under fair use guidelines we follow here. If that in fact is not correct, it will be corrected. I am not sure how that is different from your own posts on occasion snipping testimony or docs containing same,
2. I do not think listening to Jessie’s confession would enhance your thoughts, I just did not remember if you had listened to it, thank you for clarifying. The bible confession was recorded, but is not available publicly outside of the transcripts to date.
3. It absolutely can be said that he believed him- The man searched out a bible, and searched out a bottle. If he did not, he was not under ANY obligation as Jessie’s representative to contact the state. In fact, he was obligated not to, and should have withdrawn had he not.
4. I feel strongly that it should bother people that not one of these men has given an independent interview since their release. Most especially if they have agreements with the PL#3 peeps not to.
How has the additional information about Jessie’s youth affected your thoughts on him, if they have?
B
46. Matt says:
February 11, 2012 at 5:32 pm
Blink I would love to put up my own account of Damien’s mental history, but going through the 500 and other documents is a long laborious task. I will have to go the fantastic wm3truth site again for the breakdown,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Matt: Matt, if you are regurgitating parts of the Exhibit 500 expressly for me, I have reviewed Exhibit 500 twice, so it is not necessary. I do appreciate your effort. If you have any reliable links outside of Exhibit 500, I am interested in those. If you are really interested in getting an unbiased view of DE, I would not recommend relying solely on others’ condensed versions, Matt. I think you would find it well worth the time it takes to read Exhibit 500, and ALL the trial transcripts, Rule 37 Hearings, and Writs on the Callahan site. Perhaps you have already.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matt says:
The truth is much uglier. Damien Echols is a psychopath. At the time of the murders, he was a violent and erratic psychopath.
@Matt, do you have evidence a Hare was ever completed on DE? Even if it was, it would not particularly impress me, quite frankly. Did you know that Dr. Hare profits from the sale of his Psychopathic Checklists? Last time I checked the 2nd edition cost $375, so it is a nice cottage industry. Although psychopathy is the label du jour that some in psychiatry and LE love to throw around when describing the worst of the worst criminal behavior, it is not classified as a mental disorder or disease in the DSM-IV-TR. So everyone can mark it off the personality disorder list.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Again, it did appear to this social worker as though the client was responding to an outside stimulation. (p 237)
@Matt, you are incorrect. The social worker said it appeared DE was responding to “external” stimulation. Every single, living, normal human being responds to external stimulation (as I explained in a previous note). Cutting one’s eyes and sniffing the air in the context of DE’s records was not evidence of psychosis and his treating psychiatrist did not diagnosis him with psychosis. The SW should have stayed within her area of expertise. As far as DE’s antics with the blood sucking and self-mutilation — Somewhat of a attention-seeker with with borderline PD features? Maybe. That is what at least one of the professionals thought when he evaluated him. By the way, I don’t mean to make light of this as many teens suffer from illnesses like depression that cause them to self-mutilate or attempt/commit suicide.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Because of the circumstances that precipitated the hospitalization and Damien’s threats, particularly towards his father and of course his mother, both parents do not feel that they wish to have him return to their home. They are frightened of him and what he can do, not only to them but to other children that reside in the home (2 others).
@Matt, If the mom was so frightened of DE why did she eventually pack up and follow him back to Arkansas?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jerry Driver appears to have been irrationally fixated on Satanism.
Ya think?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matt, as Mom3.0 has tried to clarify over and over, those of us who question the “evidence” are not dishonoring Stevie, Michael and Chris, nor are we supporting the WM3. We are searching the evidence to get beyond reasonable doubt.
Fair of course, but I do believe Matt introduced some new confirmed research from the Blood of Innocents work.
B
Just posting a link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADRLh2v6MaQ&feature=player_embedded
http://wm3truth.com/damien-echols-profile/
If you cant see the difference from my and others snipping articles and information and what Matt snipped- who am I – to say otherwise- Blink-
This is your site your names on the door- I get it
I like BOC I come here for a reason- if I wanted WMTRUTH’s analysis of these murders or/and if I wanted to share my thoughts and research and opinions with those who frequent the site I would be a member there-
I have no problem in doing it here – if you so choose.
As for Jesse’s lawyer getting a bible– that does not equate to him believing Jesse
That equates to him being an inexperienced lawyer who was trying to get his client to actually tell the truth- regardless if Misskellys hand was on that bible or not He continued to lie and he continued to get major details and facts wrong-
My thoughts remain the same about Misskelly – same as DE and JB
They all had pasts and problems and histories so did many others in that town many of them were these 3 friends-
These 3 may have committed the murders but none of this information is evidence of it- the same as it isnt evidence the others in the town
that had the same issues and histories-
AJMO
Ok, now I see what you were concerned might offend me, lol.
I think we all agree outside of what I was provided personally and not for public dissemination, there are/were very limited and fixed resources to study the case via court transcripts, original documents and exhibits. So, essentially everyone is working from the same files from the callaghan site- who has done a fantastic compilation I might add.
The bulk of Matt’s response was exactly that, with his and the posters interpretation.
I also saw that he mentioned that his response was not intended for you solely I believe.
At the end of the day, we are all just interpreting information differently, and there is never going to be anyway around it I can see.
One of my mentors and arguably one of the finest FBI profilers to date (r) does not agree with my findings in this case and vice-versa. ( Let me state he was hired by the defense, and was never given the juvenile backgrounds or the 500 to consider). Talk about pressure.
That said, 10 million bucks spent, many millions more made and earned by all, not one viable scenario of suspects in the alternative or evidence of exoneration resulting in 3 alford pleas.
B
Grace,
Thank you again grace for sharing your thoughts and for expressing so well and succinctly what I have been trying to say over and over
Thank you
Blink- I am sorry if any of my comments/posts/ research have made you feel like I am disrespecting you or your work or your opinions- that is not and has never been my intention-
Peace
I have never once felt disrespected by you nor would I. In the rarest of occasions if I did, you know you would hear that from me personally and likely privately. We do not agree on this case- I respect your position, and I know you respect mine.
Reasonable doubt is a fair and just threshold. Advocacy does not care about anything but Chris, Stevie, and Michael. We agree on that, and at the end of the day, it is really all that matters to me.
B
Good i am happy to know it as I would not have been able to sleep with thinking I dis you in any way-
I know you know, but I will say it again-
I realize we disagree on many things in this case- I wish it werent so- it is much more comfortable being squarely on your side of an issue or case-
Even though we do disagree I am very thankful that you have never tried to silence my thoughts and opinions- and i am glad we can both take one anothers opinions and thoughts and incorporate them into our analysis of this case.
I know were are both just trying to do our best for Stevie Chris and Mike-
ps to all-
just to clarify
I like WM3truth I think it is a good source for info and commentary- and I would never want to cause any one from that site not to dfeel welcome nor would i want to cause anyone quoting or snipping from that site to feel bad-
Okay thats all g’night
My prayers for Stevie Chris and Mike for their families and for all who care
@mom
My earlier post was not aimed directly at you but supporters in general so im sorry if it came off that way. Also I never claimed that the history of the WM3 proved they were guilty of the murders. I just wanted to show that they were not the poor little whiter than white outcasts that supporters have made them out to be.
What you said hear though is very telling,
Have you ever worked with developmentally delayed or mentally challenged individuals?
I have.
They often times react to situations in much the same manner-
They have little or no concept of lashing out violently when they are provoked- it bears little consequence to them at the time whether a person is female or male-
They simply react.
It is hard to tell what will provoke them-
How about three 8 year olds who said or did something that Damien, Jessie or Jason didn’t like? It fits into the bullying gone wrong scenario that I believe happened on that terrible day.
9. GraceintheHills says:
February 11, 2012 at 11:10 pm
Fair of course, but I do believe Matt introduced some new confirmed research from the Blood of Innocents work.
B
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: DE, I had previously reviewed all Matt posted, so it wasn’t new to me. As far as the info posted about JM, I have always felt that due to his likely borderline intellectual functioning, he may have had impulse control issues. I do not think there was ever any evidence that he met criteria for Mental Retardation at or around the time of the offense. As for his lawyers telling him to keep his head down, I really have no idea why they would do that unless they thought he might somehow come across inappropriately if he looked around the courtroom during trial. A person with even mild mental retardation would have some difficulty following through on that request throughout a lengthy trial.
As for JB putting his brother in a headlock after his brother and his friends trashed JB’s room: I think that type of behavior is very common in young males. My cousin, who grew up with two older brothers, tells me he is still amazed he made it to adulthood with all the fights he and his brothers had. There may be other sources out there, but from what I have read so far, JB seems to be the most passive of these three.
Jason does seem the most normal but there are little things that would point to him having a darker side. This page from his journal is interesting,
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/j_baldwin/journal/jb_journal_writing.jpg
A helpless baby crying on a stretcher while Jason is holding a knife in the foreground can be be seen as harmless or a precursor for things to come.
That image is to depict an anti-abortion stance. I do however think it interesting that the weapon depicted looks eerily like an ice axe.
B
Blink, Yeah I was tired and should have written it as
DONT instead of CANT- its amazing how one word can change the entire tone of someones response…
It should have been:
If you dont see the difference from my and others snipping articles and information and what Matt snipped- who am I – to say otherwise- Blink-
This is your site your names on the door- I get it
— Blink, Now I understand why you feel it isnt different as we all use callahans for our resource- where I was having a issue was- that Matt brought over these articles that without KNOWING someone could mistake them as his thoughts and opinions and comments-
I did with the Jesse Misskelly’s “profile” from WM3truth-
I responded to it,
At the time, I had not realized it was WMTRuth’s work- I responded to Matt as if it were he talking and sharing his opinions – and would have responded to Matts posting of Damiens “profile” in much the same manner, but due to its length, I immediately recognized the work of WM3 Truth-
I realize all the hard work that went into that site and into each section- I may disagree with much of what was written- but never brought my thoughts to the WM3 Truths site– to me it would be rude and again my home is BOC-
But now, because of my misunderstanding over Matts posts- I DID respond to WM3 work, in the same manner I would have any posters- and to me that is again disrespectful- as I would treat his/her work with the same respect I would give ValHalls or yours-
I may disagree with something you guys wrote but I wouldnt necessarily voice my response/opinions in the same manner.
I realize we all get info from Callahans, just like we all got our info from the docs in Caylees case- but from my understanding we were never allowed to post ValHalls entire pieces here on BOC- we could bring over small snips and we could post links-
Again- it was a misunderstanding on my part and now I realize we can-
Ill be sure to read more carefully to make sure I do not misunderstand again-
—
Matt- Hello- thanks for clarifying IRT me and supporters-
as for what you found telling in my posts- -
yes- as I said in each and every response- IT IS POSSIBLE that Jesse Misskelly could have killed these 3 boys stemming from his problems with impulse control-
It is possible that He was there with DE and JB- and they all participated- IDK- I can not find any evidence that such a scenario occurred.
I can come up with a million different plausible theories on how JB JM and DE committed these murdeers and why-
but a theory doesnt make it so- otherwise we would all still believe the Satanic ritualistic murder commited with the grapefruit knife-
That was wrong-
I am trying to get over reasonable doubt- I am trying to review the evidence and find the truth the complete truth – so far I have been unable to come to the definite conclusion that these 3 men committed these murders- at the same time I have been able to rule them out or claim their innocence-
I am stuck on the fence
AJMO
I hate these 3 guys! THEY ARE SO GUILTY!
Matt says:
February 12, 2012 at 4:34 pm
Jason does seem the most normal but there are little things that would point to him having a darker side. This page from his journal is interesting,
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/j_baldwin/journal/jb_journal_writing.jpg
A helpless baby crying on a stretcher while Jason is holding a knife in the foreground can be be seen as harmless or a precursor for things to come.
That image is to depict an anti-abortion stance. I do however think it interesting that the weapon depicted looks eerily like an ice axe.
B
—
Me again-
Hello again- Have you went back and read through the comment section of Blinks pieces? If not you really should- I realize you have already made up your mind as to guilt or innocence- but there is some really good information in there that may help you get a different perspective on things-
As I mentioned in a previous post we have discussed Jasons Journals, I was able to find what I initially wrote, here it is:
Re your October 4, 2011 at 11:09 pm and your October 6, 2011 at 1:02 pm
posts/response
I found the links to Jasons English composition journal -
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/jb_journal.html
I myself to not see ANYTHING in these entries that show JB to be extremely violent or deranged.
The one entry in which he conveys his extreme anger over his little brother and his friends messing up his room- to me reads much like any 16 year old brothers “confession” over grabbing the brother and holding him in a head lock until he turned red- adding ofcourse at the end that he Jason was punished, & got in trouble “for nothing”
I think perhaps this is nothing more than an older brother not realizing how this behavior is wrong- or how it makes him look to outsiders-
Brothers, male cousins or young uncles ect- They can be very protective and very caring and great mentors- but they can also be rather quick to anger and they sometimes choose inappropriate tactics when dealing with younger kids-
I cant tell you how many kids would come into school with bruises or scratches from a roughhousing older sibling- giving “charlie horses” or “purple nurples” or “indian burns” or run of the mill wrestling mishaps..or overreacting physically to some perceived wrong… or how many times I witnessed as a kid, my friends older family members holding their arms behind their backs and making them scream uncle- or brothers getting mad at one another and commencing in a physical fight- boys are different – they often use force but everything is fine afterward- you know?
I would think because JB openly discussed this behavior and his anger in class work- he felt it was really no big deal- nor did he feel he had did anything that bad-
This is typical behavior for some, and certainly not a precursor to abuse or murder?
His journal entries also include alot of doodling, which does contain drawings of knives and girls and swirls and abstract shapes ect ect- again, these kids collected knives, again these kids were into metal- much of the cover art contains weapons and girls and stuff that would make the average parent chagrin- thats half of the interest-
Go to any Highschool and pick up their folders ect- youd be surprised what they are drawing- and be sure to pick up their cd cases- youll be surprise at the lyrics and most of the imagery.
As for his mothers suicide attempt- I am sure it affected JB how could it not? But in this same journal, when conveying his thoughts on a persons suicide attempt, he brings up this painful event from his past- and shows empathy and compassion for not only the girl but hr family as well- so that tends to point towards 16 year old JB, processing his feelings rather well.IMO
In this same journal JB also talks about his self-esteem, and his dreams of a perfect girlfriend, and his career hopes- he wanted to go to art school, and his feeling on abortion, and the woman being able to live with the guilt of her choice, and he also talks about the scariest costume he can think of- that of an abortion doctor and he adds a picture for emphasis….
Very profound ramblings for a sixteen year old.
AJMO
Cont Part 2
Hi again -
Matt you wrote:
Jason does seem the most normal but there are little things that would point to him having a darker side. This page from his journal is interesting,
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/j_baldwin/journal/jb_journal_writing.jpg
A helpless baby crying on a stretcher while Jason is holding a knife in the foreground can be be seen as harmless or a precursor for things to come.
—
Matt, If you hold down ctrl and scroll you can enlarge the picture and the writing-
This assignment seems to be “what is the scariest Costume you can think of”- So I would think he would want the drawing that accompanies this journal entry to be gruesome and scary.
Jason writes:
I would come to the party dressed as a doctor who does abortions, cause that is the most hideous real-life thing I have ever heard of.
I would be dressed in green with white overalls little thing. I would have scapuls, tweezers, those little grip like surgical pliers, needles filled with saline,blood dripping from my rubber gloves, and a have way formed dying baby next to by, just lying there screaming because it is dying and noone is there that cares enough to save its poor little life. That is what I think is the scariest costume in the world.
–
BTW – Jason also wrote about his thoughts on abortion, he seemed to be grappling with his stance- which his scariest Halloween costume entry seems to underscore…
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/j_baldwin/journal/jb_journal_3_9.jpg
Jason Wrires:
I am prochoice because the person is gonna have an abortion nomatter what the law says it makes it all just easier for that person who must have troubles if they are wanting an a abortion anyways to get one.
I dont think abortions are right But I know people are going to have them nomatter what anybody says or does. So I think I am prochoice. If the mother can live with the guilt that she has killed her baby, then fine let her do it, Its no skin off our back, or is it?
Hopes this helps in some way-
AJMO
Hi Blink- in seeing Jasons Scariest Costume drawing again-
I took a closer look-
Blink- as I wrote before
The picture did seem to depict the doctor holding an implement which resembled an iceax- but on further inspection, the drawing, actually seems to depict:
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/j_baldwin/journal/jb_journal_writing.jpg
An abortion doctor holding those “pliers” or scissor like forceps- with the little baby’s torn, ripped off arm- held firmly inside the grips- I can see what appears to be a poorly drawn hand–(hands are one of the hardest to get right while drawing) the baby which islying on the gurney seems to be missing its arm….
Jason may have wanted to be an artist, but he was only sixteen and still needed to work on his technique-. He probably did not take the time to detail the picture quite as well as he should have- He probably never thought anyone would be scrutinizing it so nor his writings/musings- He most likely never thought they would be used as evidence against him in a court of law-
Just offering up a different perspective
AJMO
Peace
16. Matt says:
February 12, 2012 at 4:34 pm
Jason does seem the most normal but there are little things that would point to him having a darker side. This page from his journal is interesting,
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/j_baldwin/journal/jb_journal_writing.jpg
A helpless baby crying on a stretcher while Jason is holding a knife in the foreground can be be seen as harmless or a precursor for things to come.
That image is to depict an anti-abortion stance. I do however think it interesting that the weapon depicted looks eerily like an ice axe.
B
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would not see this as a precursor for “things to come.” I agree that this drawing is an anti-abortion message. He describes the implements he would have as “scapuls (sic), tweezers, those little grip like surgical pliers…”. If one blows up the drawing, one can see that what he has drawn resembles large pliers.
But what really stands out to me about this drawing is the sentiment he put forth: how abortion is the “most hideous” thing, and that no one cares enough to “save” the “poor little baby’s life.”
Sounds pro-life to me.
Ha HA Grace- – I just read your response to Matt and Blinks thoughts-
I am glad to know an independent observer saw what I saw- before my post was even out of moderation- I wonder what Blink, Matt and others think after taking another look?
But yes, Grace I agree – the picture shows an abortion doctor holding forceps/scissors- with a torn off baby’s arm in its grip
I also think Jasons word choice of “hideous” is very telling.
AJMO
Peace
I already knew about Jason’s pro choice stance on abortion. I just find that image a bit disturbing to be honest. It certainly doesn’t mean anything in the grand scheme of things. I honestly believe that Jason is the reason why most people support the WM3. He looked out of place in the docs and didn’t look like he could be involved in this heinous act. But when I watched the first PL in the scene where he was asked would he convict Damien he paused for so long I couldn’t believe it. And then he said he would. He knew Damien messed up big time on the stand and both their fates were sealed. I would have loved to have seen Jason on the stand but he was smarter and not as cocky as Damien in that regard. The prosecutor would have destroyed him with his lack of alibi anyway. Sorry for rambling on.
Matt-
Jason said he was “pro-choice” but I believe his entries show he meant it in the sense that it is the womans right to choose and she would have to live with the guilt of her choice- he also went further to state he THINKS he is pro-choice because a troubled person who is wanting an abortion is going to get one nomatter what the law or anyone has to say about it.
I would think JB was trying to articulate the point of- it being safer for a woman in such a bad/troubled position to be able to go to a legitimate doctor and receive appropriate care- both mentally And physically than to outlaw abortion thereby forcing the woman to go to dangerous extremes inorder to carry out her choice….
Ofcourse the drawing is disturbing Matt- it seems to me, Jason was trying to convey his feelings of aversion and horror.
He, it seems to me, was very concerned over the “poor little baby” crying, alone, dying- with noone to care. Afterall- this assigment was -what is the scariest costume you can think of- and Jasons answer was:
“I would come to the party dressed as a doctor who does abortions, cause that is the most hideous real-life thing I have ever heard of.”
Again, the whole point of Jason drawing that image was to DISTURB- the observer, so they would be able to understand how DISTURBED he was over what he explains is the most HIDEOUS real life thing…
I dont think you brought over that image simply because it disturbed you.(as the artist intended)
As you put it, “little things” point to JB having a “darker side” and you described the image as “interesting”, you went on to write that it showed Jason holding a knife over a helpless baby… (with no mention that it was Jason wearing what he felt was the “Scariest costume”)- this image you felt, could be seen as a precursor for “things to come”
Matt, did you even take the time to READ the journal entry? As I think it would be quite hard to misinterpret Jasons mindset and motivations for having written this and adding a drawing for emphasis…. unless someone was determined to paint this 16 year old as having a darker side which may be a precursor to triple child murder.
How does caring about a poor little helpless victim equate to having a darker side which would soon have the writer/artist becoming a deranged murderer of 3 helpless victims? IDK
AJMO
Cont
Part 2
Hey matt. Me again-
As for your thoughts on why some may support the 3 – you could be right, they may see Jason as incapable of committing these murders-
I can not speak for them
But I, myself, have not seen the evidence which definitely points to JB as a deranged killer devoid of reason and remorse-
He was good friends with DE
He had a juvenile record- no violence or threats of violence-
He came from a broken family
His mother attempted suicide
He liked heavy metal and other music
he wore concert shirts
He liked to draw things which could be seen as dark or macbre (for anyone not familiar with HM cover art)
He went to school- his teachers spoke highly of him
He did his assignments
He babysat his younger siblings
He had just acquired a summer job a Krogers
By all those who knew him he was described as kind, caring, shy, funny, sweet- responsible and compassionate.
No provable alibi- (only family and friends) andhis lawyers never attempted to put character witnesses/alibi witnesses on the stand)
(then we have JM pointing the finger at his involvement along with MC claiming JB described his supposed acts in a jail house confession)
Ofcourse, there have been killers who have also held these attributes-and many innocent people have had to defend themselves against false claims and hyave had no alibi…
So again its all in ones perceptions and in the evidence-
Which I, myself- have seen no evidence tying JB to these murders- except for JM wild confessions- MC’s wild, incredible, inconceivable overheard statement and as the jury made mentioned “Damiens Best friend”…. Even Blinks iceax theory does not preclude some one other than Jason having had an iceax or borrowing Jasons for that matter……
AS for the scene in PL1, I borrowed the movie from my local library- and have since returned it so I could not get an exact quote- but IIRC-
Ford asked Jason if he thought DE had done it…Jason does not immediately scoff and say Hell no, he didnt do it- which if he and DE and JB had killed the boys, he most assuredly would have done this right?
Instead, he thinks about it…and responds sadly- they sure made it seem like he did.
Which in truth- They DID make it SOUND like DE did… along with JB and JM ….they made it SEEM like these 3 young men committed these murders as misguided dabbling devil worshipers who were determined to sacrifice three innocent boys to SAtin- and they made it seem like it was done with the lake-knife and they made it seem like Narlene Hollingsworth had seen DE and Jason leaving the scene of the crime and they made it seem like Vicki Hutchinson had went with Jesse and DE to a witches Sabbath/orgy and all the rest.
Except for possibly these 3 young men having committed the murders, most if not all of this “evidence turned out to be wrong…
IF they did this- the prosecution’s case was practically devoid of factual evidence which would tie JB or these 3 to the killings-
The DNA- matched 11% of the population as well as the victims and the accused-
The fibers came from common items/ fabrics- which were not owned by the defendants directly -in other words -the fibers could have come from the 3 and 1000′s of others-
The Luminol findings-rendered utterly useless when all factors are taken into account least of which was that the testing was “novel” at the time
All the rest is circumstantial evidence at best and relyed heavily on his said she said testimony only-
This evidence- was determined by a team of well-meaning but inept LEO- who may have mishandled-contaminated, lost or never collected the actual evidence of the murders and may have led to witnesses bearing false confessions/ testimony- or may have never followed up with others etc
So who can say beyond a Reasonable doubt what happened on May 5th 1993- and by whose hand?
Could everything be wrong?
Thias is what I know-Three little 8 year old playmates went missing and were later found bound and brutally murdered in a filthy ditch inside a patch of woods called Robin Hill-
Who killed them?
Where does the evidence lead us? IDK I am unsure.
AJMO
Peace
Mom said,
‘MC’s wild, incredible, inconceivable overheard statement’
Michael Carson did pass a polygraph and he had nothing to gain from testifying against Jason. Also supporters mention that Damien & Jessie’s history of violence and weird behavior (very few actually acknowledge it) should not count against them when stacking up the evidence of guilt. Then Jason’s history of being a nice, pro choice, good student and caring young man should not either. People hide things, they bottle things up and walk around like ticking time bombs. And when they explode then very bad things happen. Jason admitted that when he gets angry it’s not a pretty site. Jason snapped with his brother but then controlled himself. But when he snapped on May 5th1993 he couldn’t control himself.
Matt says:
February 14, 2012 at 9:05 am
I already knew about Jason’s pro choice stance on abortion. I just find that image a bit disturbing to be honest.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matt, have you never seen some of the pro-life posters in which blown-up color photographs of aborted fetuses are shown? They are pretty disturbing as well. If this is our evidence of JB having a “darker side”, the same could be said of pro-lifers who carry such posters during protests. After all, they are the ones who direct these posters to be made.
I know this is a very emotional case for most people, so much so that we have people that group themselves into the “supporters” or “nons” of the WM3. I am neither, Matt. I am interested in justice, but I also like reviewing cases, in part due to my current work. Sometimes it seems to me that some individuals look for anything that will substantiate his/her conclusion, instead of actually examining any evidence that might show the WM3 were actually in Robin Hood woods AND killed the boys that evening. I approached this case believing they were guilty, and was surprised at the dearth of evidence, Matt. Imho, when one carefully picks the case apart and looks at it from different angles, there is very little, if any, evidence outside of JM’s varied confessions (the first of which was so far out in left field that it did not even meet the probable cause standard for arrest), the Salem-like Satanic Panic theory/motive, and some questionable witnesses who intially said they saw DE and DT near the scene. And, lo and behold, not everyone in that car was in agreement. Mom3.0 has already gone over the fiber “evidence” and how no expert can opine a particular garment was the source of the fiber. And, I am sure by now all of you know I never found Carson’s testimony credible. Imo, these are some of the reasons why the prosecutors essentially warned the victims’ parents there was only a 50/50 chance of getting convictions in the JB/DE trial. They just didn’t have much, period.
Last, but not least, I haven’t said much about the ice axe, but here are my thoughts. The ice axe in question was turned over to LE and sent for serology and latent prints, and no blood or prints were found so it was not introduced into evidence. After closely examining the wounds, I could find no evidence that Peretti sent any investigators to look for an axe or axe-like implement. He maintained it was a knife that inflicted the wounds, and, iirc, opined a knife similar to the one admitted into evidence at trial could have inflicted the wounds.
I think after 18 years (or more, depending how long it took them to put new trials on the dockets) it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, for any pathologist to say with a reasonable degree of medical certainty that this ice axe was used to inflict the wounds. Even when you have the decedent’s bodies on the table in front of you, it can be very difficult to link a particular weapon with a wound. Many MEs will tell you the best they can do is opine that a weapon with similar features may have been used. Of course, if this particular ice axe had been found at the scene or was otherwise directly linked to the scene, and contained residual evidence linking it to the murders, there certainly would have been a better chance of the jury inferring a connection. And, yes, a weapon can also be circumstantially linked, but without residual evidence on the weapon, imo, this can be difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
All of the above is my opinion only.
I am still very interested in reading Part III of this series. Perhaps Blink has more information she can share with us that might shed more light on these issues.
Matt says:
February 15, 2012 at 2:20 pm
Mom said,
‘MC’s wild, incredible, inconceivable overheard statement’
—
Hello.
Yes, Matt that is what I said, as I believe it to be true, based upon my careful review of all statements and research pertaining to MCarson
“Michael Carson did pass a polygraph ”
—
Again I do not hold polygraphs as proof of deception or of truth…having said that, In actuality I dont think it can be said that Micheal Carson passed his polygraphs- although I think LE desperately wanted him to pass-
He was given two polygraphs IIRC- the results of only one can be found at Callahans-
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/mcpoly.html
Unlike other witneses POIs whose findings read: deception noted or no deception noted—
Michael Carsons polograph conclusion reads that He was found to be
“essentially” truthful…
ContPart 2
part 2
hi matt, me again,
Mike Carson was “essentially truthful”…
Essential meaning:
Something necessary or indispensable
Constituting or being part of the essence of something
Basic or indispensable; necessary: Something fundamental.
in a fundamental or basic way; in essence
So Michael Carson statements were indispensable, necessary, they contained the basic essence of truth? but were they the truth IRT JB?
-
During which part of his answers was he “essentially truthful?
Lets take a look at the questions and answers and try to figure out how a person might be “essentially” truthful but STILL be a deceiver:
–
Do you plan to lie to me on questions about your alleged conversation with Jason Baldwin? NO-
Hmmm do you PLAN to lie about your conversation- well if a person is a practiced liar he wouldnt have had to formulate a plan now would he, it could be almost second nature Correct??
So if a person doesnt have a set plan to lie, than he can be “essentially” truthful when responding in the negative as to planning to deceive correct?
—–
Did you lie when you said that baldwin told you he sucked the blood from one of those dead boys penis? NO
Hmmm did you lie when you said- that baldwin told you “He” sucked the blood from the penis…
Well if one is a liar- then he most certainly could play semantics over this question-
were you lying? well not really- no I wasnt “lying” I was just relaying a dream or I was just relaying a make believe conversation- or I could simply be relaying a conversation I had with Danny Williams in which ” **HE**” told me that the Bad guys ( JB being one) probably sucked the blood from the dead boys penis as a satanic thing…
—
Did you lie when you said that Baldwin told you he put the balls of one of the dead boys in his mouth? NO
Hmmm- well MC could be “essentially truthful” if he answered this question in the negative by simply omitting the fact that the conversation took place only in his dreams or fevered imaginations… Could MC have been retelling a dream which he had after having the conversation with DW IRT the blood penis details- ?? In his dream JB told him that he put the balls in his mouth…. So therefore in such a situation MC could be seen as “essentially truthful”
–
Have you deliberately made up any part of your story concerning what you say Jason Baldwin told you? NO
Hmmm deliberately? Thats the 1000000 dollaR KEY WORD RIGHT?
well no officer sir—- HE never deliberately lied or made up any thing…see it kindof all snowballed out of control…
IT MIGHT have played out in MC mind like this:
I told my dad something-I had heard but I told him it came directly from JB… and Dad surprised me by wanting me to come forward with my story…
See, He knew enough not to believe me right off, he asked me if I would be willing to take a lie detector…and well, I put him off…but he wouldnt let it go officer…. he kept urging me to come forward to help those families…….and well, he kept saying how this could be the one “good” thing that came from my bad deeds and incarceration……..nd he finally wouldnt be put off anymore…
officer…ummm see… he kinda of forced my hand when he called BrentDavis….and put me on the phone…it was way too late to back out officer, and by that time I had almost come to believe it was all true, and I did want to help the families…and since the news kept saying that the case was strong against these 3…well an “11″ on a 10 scale and since JM had already confessed…well I figured my story wasnt really a bad thing to stick to especially seeing how these guys were guilty…so did I DELIBERATELY make up anything or lie NO not deliberately…it all just kinda of happened… i was trying to help you and me and the families…
So therefore you can mark down that I am essentially truthful…okay?
Of course i am not saying this is what happened but i am saying that Police did not say MC showed no deception they did not say he passed the polys they said when answering these questions he was “essentially” truthful….
Again, it all comes down to ones own perceptions over the”evidence”
CONT part 3
AJMO same as always-
Part 3
Hello matt you wrote in part:
“and he had nothing to gain from testifying against Jason.”
Umm actually he had alot to gain from testifying against JM-
He, for one, could hold his head up around his father…and he could for once be on the side of the “good guys”…and he could help the “good guys” put away 3 killers- cuz everybody already knows they killed them 3 boys- right?
He could also get a nice cushy job with LE as an informant…and he could remain in contact with WM police and feel free to call them for advice etc, when any issue arose….
He could be the hero to the families of Stevie, Mike and Chris, who at the time believed wth all their hearts that LE gad the right culprits… he could feel good about “helping” them… he could be a hero in his community, to his neighbors and even to those who he had wronged in the past- cuz everybody knows a burglar and a druggie is far better than a devil worshiping child killer right?
So in a sense it would be like wiping the slate clean- one “good deed” out weighs all other wrongs….
So yeah- MC had a lot to gain by testifying and by lying- oopss I mean for being “essentially truthful”….
-Again it all comes down to ones own perceptions right?
Cont part 4
AJMO
Part 4
Mattt- You went on to opine:
Also supporters mention that Damien & Jessie’s history of violence and weird behavior (very few actually acknowledge it) should not count against them when stacking up the evidence of guilt.
I can not speak for supporters- I have never said that Jesse and Damiens histories should be discounted or dismissed- what I have said is that their histories are NOT evidence of guilt
I have said they are but a snap shot in time-
DE has a history he was treated and released- He made threats but he never acted on those threats-
His runins with the law all stemmed from his Romeo and Juliet fantasy do or die mentality over his first love Deanna-
he was suspended /expelled from school for fighting/ and for lighting a fire in chemistry class- and for throwing a water soaked tp ball at a light bulb and for ditching classes……Okay…this type of behavior has been seen in Highschool since the beginning of time
Is this right? No- should have been reprimanded yes- but none of this is evidence that he is a child myurderer or would have the propensity to become a child murderer…
He was suspended or expelled for threatening to put hexes on people- are you kidding me? so if the old lady on my block who is highly superstitious goes to the neighborhood association and claims that the wierd oldman down the street is giving her the “evil eye”…he can be evicted? Hexes really?
DE made threats
BUT HE NEVER ACTED ON THOSE THREATS
DE has a 500 which means he was receiving treatment and responding tio treatment- and receiving medication also- None of which is evidence of murder or the propensity to commit murder…
You opined:
” Then Jason’s history of being a nice, pro choice, good student and caring young man should not either.”
What is this Mattt, an adolescent argument in which instead of conceding a point, you say yeah but that isnt fair- DE history and JM history arent a sign of guilt so JB history and character arent a sign of innocence? so there!!
Matt I never said that these 3 couldnt have committed the crimes nor did I say any of this was “evidence” of guilt or innocence-
My point was IT is NOT-
Was JB capable of committing these crimes- IDK my point was JB did not seem to have a “dark side” and that entry and drawing were not a “precursor” to murder- contrary to what you seem to think…
Seriously, it is like most are determined to see anything as a means to view these 3 young men as the killers that everything nomatter what it is illustrates their guilt…
If they smile or not- they are the killers…. If they are silent or not they are the killers… if they pause to think they are the killers … if they make callous smartass remarks they are the killers… if they have mental challenges they are the killers…if they are intelligent and dropout they are the killers…if they remain in school and do what they are told they are the killers…. if they have a juvenile record they are the killers if they like to fight or not, they are the killers…if they owned any knife they are the killers… if they like metal or wear black or if they dont, they are the killers…if they took polygraphs or not they are the killers…if they testified or not they are the killers….
Where is the evidence to illustrate they are the killers?
You went on to write:
” People hide things, they bottle things up and walk around like ticking time bombs. And when they explode then very bad things happen. ”
True for some Matt- but JB wasnt hiding anything- he wrote about his anger and his actions in his journals- DE was openly weird and sullen and had recieved treatment and meds and all the rest… and everyone knew of JM propensity to fight and his quick temper…
So who was hiding, and who was a ticking time bomb ready to explode- and where is the evidence that any of these 3 young men “went off” on these poor little innocent victims?
You wrote:
“Jason admitted that when he gets angry it’s not a pretty site.”
Yep he did he didnt hide it infact he was punished for it…
Matt- when most people get angry at 16 it isnt a pretty sight-
The fact is, DE had no further runins with the law after his supposed probation violation when returning to Arkansas
JM may have liked to fight, but one incident at 11 another at 10 and
1 incident with a girl who slapped him and her boyfriend and friends does not mean JM was capable of murder- nor does his retaliating inappropriately due to his poor impulse control and anger over a 6 yearold throwing a rock- all of which just like his rock throwing at a girl who he was trying to help— doesnt make him a murderer either…
You wrote:
“Jason snapped with his brother but then controlled himself.” True
“But when he snapped on May 5th1993 he couldn’t control himself.”
Alrighty then, so glad you figured this all out…except there is no evidence that this in fact happened- There IS evidence that whomever killed these boys did control themselves- know how?
BY THE LACK of evidence-
It seems to me IMO—WHOMEVER the killer is- he did not beat them or cut them while they were clothed-
he tied/bound them in such a manner, that it has never been seen prior or since in any crime–
He did not stab the boys repeatedly he did not slash at the boys repeatedly…
He did not beat on the boys again and again…
He kept all of the damage, or most of it to one side of Stevies face, He possibly blackened Mikes eyes… he possibly castrated little Chris… and he caused them to have multiple fractures and cracks and lacerations on the tops and backs of their skulls–
NO Broken bones
NO broken noses- NO tell tale undeniable knife wounds… NO foot prints- and the scene was painstakenly cleaned uop- all while the parents and Le and the searchers and the neighborhood and traffic and businesses – looked and searched and went about their business…etc etc-
So yeah the EVIDENCE shows that whomever killed these boys they did it in the most controlled way possible- especially if one is to believe that these boys were killed in those woods yards away from apartments and businesses and while the parents were looking for them
AJMO
Peace
Grace thank you again for sharing your thoughts with us-
I really appreciate your objective succinct posts.
I feel much the same as you do- I am combing through everything… I am looking for this mountain of circumstantial evidence…I am looking for any witness or piece of evidence that will allow me to get over the reasonable doubt- the more I look the more I find questionable,,,
I am also looking forward to reading Blinks next article
AJMO Peace-
Mom said,
So yeah the EVIDENCE shows that whomever killed these boys they did it in the most controlled way possible- especially if one is to believe that these boys were killed in those woods yards away from apartments and businesses and while the parents were looking for them
Do you actually believe the boys were killed somewhere else? That they were brought out of the woods, assaulted and then brought back into the woods and drowned. Then the killers cleaned up while people were searching for them. That notion is so ridiculous it’s laughable. The fact that there was a stream right there to aid the clean up, searchers were trampling through the crime scene all night, the bodies were not found until the next day and common sense means RHH was the crime scene. I believe Damien, Jason & Jessie murdered the 3 boys in RHH and cleaned up using water from the stream, it’s that simple. For anyone who doesn’t believe this I would like them to answer these questions,
So who did it? How? Who else was involved? Alibi for the killers? Did the kids know them? Where did they bring the kids? Were the kids unconscious when brought out of the woods? Or did they go willingly? Did they bring the bmx’s? When did they bring them back to RHH? How did they bring them back to RHH? How many trips did it take? Were they already hog tied? How long did they stay at the dump site? How were they not seen?
Fwiw, even the serious experts all believe the boys were killed at the site.
Matt,
Hello
Your post contained many thoughts and many questions-
If its okay I will try to address each in separate posts.
Warning-
I am going to need to refer to some very graphic photos- I am not sure if Blink will allow me to post them here, but if I am able I will try to post a link.
All the photos are autopsy photos- one in particular which I will refer to, came from my watching the PL films- unfortunately I returned the films to the library and I did not note the exact tape time.
I will try my best to walk you and everyone through my thoughts though.
Thanks-
AJMO
Mom 3.0- can you be specific as to which images, if necessary, privately to me?
I have a concern I may wish to provide a disclaimer or that it may not be suitable “raw”. That said, I may be able to fix that with some image work- depends on what you have.
Outside of that you have the floor madame.
B
You are perfectly fine, thank you for posting so I could be sure we were in the all clear.
No need for me to do anything to the images I saw, they are public record, and I would prefer they are viewed “raw”. As far as the pics from any of the PL series, you are right to refer and describe without posting.
B
Thanks Blink- I am glad to know “Alles klar, Herr Kommissar” …
Ps the photos and research wont be posted for awhile- as I need to work on my delivery, and would Ilike to address some other thoughts from matts post, first.
LOL LOL Me and Mike Chickless.
B
Hello again matt-
When I wrote this:
So yeah the EVIDENCE shows that whomever killed these boys they did it in the most controlled way possible- especially if one is to believe that these boys were killed in those woods yards away from apartments and businesses and while the parents were looking for them
I was simply basing my thoughts on the evidence or lack thereof-
For the record, I do not know what happened or exactly where it happened- Nor does anyone- not even those experts- any of them
That is a fact.
That has been proven time and time again in this case.
The experts get things wrong-
So pardon me, if I do not put much stock in any expert sharing any opinion – most especially in reference to the crime scene-
The experts from the very beginning were at a disadvantage- for you see the LEO on the scene, seriously muddled the evidence/facts due to their inexperience,incompetency, and their best efforts to help…
So therefore Matt, It stands to reason whomever killed these boys they did it in the most controlled way possible whether or not they were killed there at the scene or whether they were killed elsewhere, and merely disposed of at the scene.
*IF* the primary crime scene was that exact area then it is not too hard to surmise that whomever killed these little boys did it in a very controlled manner-
Afterall, no one heard their screams- no one saw the perps leave- no one stumbled upon the murders.
The boys were last seen at 6:30-
Chris/ dad and mom and brother were looking for him
Stevies dad was on the look out for him
Mikes Mom and sister were looking for him
There were alot of people who were in and around those woods- traveling down the service road and playing in those woods etc… At 6:30 IIRC Mikes sister saw those kids exiting and TH said he talked to the little black girl who saw them enter the woods- then you have all the searchers, the parents, LE -etc going in and out of those woods yet noone found any trace of the boys or their killers or of the crime… at all until the next day when Jones IIRC-happened upon the shoe floating in the ditch-
So if anything is said to be “ludicrous” it would seem to me, it would be a definite- no doubt ASSERTION that the killings took place there- and the cleanup took place there- yet none heard or saw anything- not the fight between the kids and DE as they jumped on his back while he was beating their other friend…Not the skirmish between the boys and JM and JB as they pulled them off- not the little boys screaming in agony as DE tried to rape them or squezed their penis- or the castration… not the thwack of the sticks against skulls, not the “no stop no stop” pleadings of those boys as told by JM- not the crying- not the running of MMoore-
Not the water being splashed up to wipe the scene clean…not the WME traversing from one area to the other to dispose of the bikes- not DE screaming for JM to get MM and bring him back…… not the cans and paper sacks rustling while being carried away… on and on
Is it possible they were killed there,is it possible by the 3, and JM was lying about how it all went down? Yes- Its possible- IDK, all I do know is- for it to happen the way JM described it and for noone to hear or see- that would be “ludicrous”
Cont Part 2
AJMO
Part 2 Matt You wrote:
Do you actually believe the boys were killed somewhere else? That they were brought out of the woods, assaulted and then brought back into the woods and drowned.
—-
I do not know what I believe as to where the boys were killed- other than to say it couldnt have happened the way JM described-
It is a FACT that LE first thought the scene was merely a dump site and not the primary crimescene killing zone- That is a fact-
What made them change their minds? Was it the luminol tests?
Or was it NH testimony along with JM “confessions” along with AH statements, along with Griffis and Drivers thoughts…. which all pointed to these 3 having killed these boys in those woods AT the scene where they were dumped which made them abandon their initial ideas?
IDK- probably all of the above- but if we take an objective look at this “evidence” then we can come to understand that LEO may have abandoned the truth inorder to run with a theory…
All this evidence is highly questionable.
1-The Luminol findings could gave been false positives- due to inappropriate testing procedures and due to contamination etc…possibly due to body placement,b y LE when the removed the boys from the water and the area, or due to the perps bringing the boys to dump in the area-
2
N Hollingsworth’s inconsistent statements and flat out lies- The Hollingsworth Clan not collaborating exactly what NH saw- the times the clothes, the driver, the occupants of the car, the exact area where the sighting occurred- the conversation surrounding this sighting- The Dixie convo etc-
3 Griffis testimony IRT the area being ideal for a ritualistic killing the moon the dates and so on…
4
Drivers/Jones? immediate thoughts when one boy was pulled from the ditch- that the crime was ritualistic cult crime- perpetrated most likely by DE…
4 JM confessions IRT times places, the murderous deeds and all actions that led up to and surrounded the killings…
“Then the killers cleaned up while people were searching for them.”
It stands to reason the killings and the cleanup had to be occurring during the time when people were searching for them- perhaps not the murders themselves- as people were searching that area…. but almost without a doubt while the cleanup and disposal was taking place- as Police said NH saw DE and JB leaving the area…and RC and friends heard 3 to five large “splashes”
Axs for who was in the area when the murders probably occurred many people were- the murders and the clean up had to be taking place sometime after 7:30 as JM confessions were an hour to an hour and a half off he wasnt even out of his own neighborhood at 6:30 and he still needed to meet up with DE and JB at the “park” in lake shore…
and then they needed to walk to the woods and they needed to frolic in the water, and they needed to sit and drink beer and smoke 2 joints and they needed to hear Stevie Chris and Mike come up and they needed to start beating them and then undress them and MM had to get away and be brought back and they needed to be cut and bit and stabbed, and castrated…and they needed to be bound with their own shoelaces, and they needed to be thrown in the water…
and their clothes and sticks had to be taken care of, and the area needed to be washed down and splashed and the blood needed to be washed from the perps bodies as NH made no mention of it, and JM “imagined” there would have been quite alot of blood…and JM had to leave right after the boy was squining in the water like a worm… and he needed to make it home while being pissed off and he need to throw that bottle under the underpass… and the weopons and clothes needed to be disposed of and washed…
ALL THAT TAKES TIME and even someone as quiet as a mouse which 3 drunk stoned teens are not…one of which is pissed for what they did to them boys and the other two need to direct one another on what to do… this would have been heard or seen-.
“Then the killers cleaned up while people were searching for them.”
“That notion is so ridiculous it’s laughable.”
What is so ludicrous about it Matt? When do you think the murders took place and when do you think the clean up took place and how long do you think each aspect took?
“The fact that there was a stream right there to aid the clean up, searchers were trampling through the crime scene all night, the bodies were not found until the next day “…
“and common sense means RHH was the crime scene.”
I agree with the first part of this statement – all these things did occur whther or not it is a primary crime scene or not the killers even in a disposal would have cleaned off- and I agree searchers and parents and LE were in those woods-
Which again is my point- with all this, noone saw or heard the murderers or the crimes or the cleanup all that splashing, all that anger and rage all that pain and agony,…yet noone heard anything…
Common sense does not tell me those woods or that ditch was the primary crime scene- could it have been? yes-
But common sense also tells me that it coud have happened elsewhere..perhaps this is NOTthe primary crime scene….
as there was little to no evidence there- and no one heard any of the goings on…except possibly the splashes and NH statement regarding DE and Domini as muddy- not bloody -not wet -but muddy and dirty…
Noone saw the trek of JB to and from noone saw the escape of MM or the departure of JM noone saw them carrying away weapons or clothes or cans or sticks.
NH said she saw DE and DT somewhere between 9-10 45 depending upon which statement she gave- -
It is a fact that those woods were searched over and over again by many during these times and these woods were searched earlier by TH and these woods were searched up to the pipe bridge by the LEO who was bothered by the mosquitoes..and people were using ATV throughout there too- JMB says he was right there- RC was near there- yet no one saw anything-
Do who can say when or where these murders occurred or when the disposal occurred- as Perriti placed the time of death IIRC from 11:00pm to sometime early morning of the 6th ….
Be back later with Part 3
AJMO
Sorry for the typos and the length- I hope despite this, my points were not lost.
Just for clarification- I too find it ludicrous that the murders and the cleanup took place all while so many were in the area….
Matt you went on to write:
I believe Damien, Jason & Jessie murdered the 3 boys in RHH and cleaned up using water from the stream, it’s that simple.
Its fine that you are comfortable in the belief that JB JM and DE murdered these 3 at the crime scene and it is fine that you believe they cleaned up everything by splashing water from the ditch..
I am not so sure, as it seems to me, inorder for that sort of cleanup to take place and for it to be so thorough, it would take a great deal of splashing…which would cause a great deal of noise….and was this splashing done from inside the ditch, while standing in the water…or was this splashing done from outside the ditch leaning down to cup the water out? hmmm Seems each scenario would lead to several problems…
if the splashing occured whilst on the bank, how was the cleaner able to make sure all areas were clean and devoid of prints and blood? what about the area behind the cleaner? what about the prints that would occur from backing out of the area? Did the cleaners use the sticks as pole vaults? No as those were devoid of all evidense as well and were left in the ditch in order to hold the clothes down…
If the cleanup took place from inside the ditch, then where did the cleaner exit? How could he wipe down any foot marks etc? Splashing alone would not wash away all imprints….and if inside the ditch, then their clothes would have been completely soaked, their shoes completely soaked…have you ever tried to maneuver stealthy in wet jeans? and wouldnt these wet garments and shoes pick up a whole lot of evidence say like all that bloody water they were standing in to splash, as the water certainly would not be “fresh” it would have been bloody, and have bits of flesh and goo around…so the cleaner would have been forced to keep splashing with the contaminated water…
How clean and fresh would that bank be if bloody icky water was splashed on the banks? How fresh would their clothes have been? Their shoes? Their weapons?
Youre right your beliefs are simple and clear cut—-but are they backed up by the evidence or the lack o fevidence? Ask yourself what likely occurred…
Matt- like me, you must realize- since you were not there we can not really know… almost anything is possible if not probable.
Matt since there were so many mistakes made, and because so much evidence was lost-in addition to Jesses confessions being almost entirely devoid of specific details and all seem to differ on so much… and due to the prosecution getting so much wrong, the motive, the weapon etc ….it is next to impossible to ascertain if your beliefs are factually correct or not. Would you agree?
So therefore if no one knows and no one can be sure, other possible scenarios, which differ from your beliefs, could in fact be the truth of what happened, correct?
Cont part 4
AJMO
Matt you went on to write:
“I believe Damien, Jason & Jessie murdered the 3 boys in RHH and cleaned up using water from the stream, it’s that simple. For anyone who doesn’t believe this I would like them to answer these questions,”
First let me say again- I do not know if these 3 are the killers they could be- I have never said one way or the other. if they are the killers then again it could not have happened the way JM states it did- nor the way it as presented in court by the prosecution..
Second- the ditch was not a stream- it was not free flowing that day-
- there was almost no movement/current in that water.
Third, inorder to use that ditch water to splash the banks and the grass enough to result in the area being slicked down, and devoid of all leaf litter and pebbles and “evidence” there needed to be a great deal of splashing, and as I opined the ditch water would have become contaminated with all of the blood, again there was little to no movement/current in the water…..
Therefore the cleaner would have been re-contaminating the bank and the grass with bloody filthy water…and then again, how if the cleaner was on the outside cupping water, did this result in such a thorough job- cupping the water would have took much more time then standing in the ditch and splashing the water out- and also it seems would not have provided enough force to wash the bank and grass clean…. both scenarios would have been loud and cumbersome, but this inside the water scenario would have been louder and there would have been more chances for the cleaners hair etc to be transferred onto the banks and grass…add to that the cleaners clothes would have been soaked as well as their shoes…..
You asked:
So who did it?
I can not say who did it- the evidence, reading and research I have done so far, has not led me to a definite killer or killers-
Could these 3 have done it? Yes- but not in the way Jesse or the prosecution described.
How?
I am uncertain on how these boys were killed- and my subsequent posts will help you to understand why I am uncertain about how and who…
What I do know, without a doubt, is these three boys suffered from profound severe head trauma and fractures as well as having sustained great wounds to their heads that leave me dumbfounded as to how these injuries could have occurred in the manner JM and the prosecution described.
How did these boys receive these injuries and yet their clothes were not bloody? How is that possible?as only little Mike had a button up shirt, unless the parents of Stevie IIRC were right and he had been wearing a button up white shirt…how could their clothing be pulled over their heads and be held over their mouths, and show no trace of blood?
Who else was involved?
I can not say who else was involved- but if any of the informaton I share leads to someone coming forward with a plausible scenario I will not discount it out right…
Alibi for the killers?
I do not know who killed the boys- so therefore I can not say what their alibi is or isnt nor can I give one for any “helper”
many killers have plausible but untruthful alibis same as many inncent people have none or poorly collaborated alibis…
Did the kids know them?
I do not know if the children “knew” them it seems they might have known them in passing at least…maybe not IDK
Did DE and JB and JM know them?
Where did they bring the kids?
I am not sure where the children were brought- if they were brought anywhere- when I present my research and questions perhaps you can help me figure out some things?
Were the kids unconscious when brought out of the woods?
I do not know if they were ever “brought out” of the woods- again perhaps the boys were not last alive in the woods…
If they were disposed of in the woods, not killed there, it seems to me that at least Stevie and Chris would most likely have had to be unconscious, as no gags of any type seem to have been utilized… and as we know little Chris was most likely dead when he hit the water- unless he was suffering from the mammalian response/shock and/or hypothermia…
Or did they go willingly?
I can not say whether they initially went willingly…
Did they bring the bmx’s?
Not sure- (only one was a dirt bike) perhaps after reviewing my research and questions you can help with this question also?
When did they bring them back to RHH?
If they were brought to RHW and the ditch for disposal- I would think it would have to be when they felt safest in doing so- perhaps after the parents went home for the night and when there was a lull in activity in the cover of darkness or at daybreak seems most likely…
How did they bring them back to RHH?
IDK-
Perhaps you can again help me answer this question
How many trips did it take?
Perhaps only one. To the area- IDK but then subsequent trips to retrieve and dispose of the boys and the bikes…
Were they already hog tied?
Seems likely- but IDK
How long did they stay at the dump site?
IDK Long enough to get the heinous job done
How were they not seen? IDK How were JB and JM and DE not seen?
Matt, many child abductions and murders occur without ever having the answer to who did it why or even how- perhaps you are so certain it was DE JB and JM because this is the only way you can feel good- thinking that the right bad guys were caught and that the sequence of events the story of what happened has been told…
Just because you have a sort of blueprint to the killers and to the crime and how it may have went down via JM confessions- and the prosecutions case which was presented at trial does not mean that the real facts and the real story has been told…
“Fwiw, even the serious experts all believe the boys were killed at the site.”
Matt, For what its worth experts have been wrong, right?
AJMO Please excuse the length and any errors.
Blink Matt and all- I am going to stop for the night as I am tired and I want to be sure my next posts are written when I am not tired…
Before I present my research and my questions and concerns I want to make it clear I am not presenting any of this as fact nor am I trying to disrespect the families or Stevie Mike and Chris-
I am presenting it in the hopes that some good can come from it- whether it is quickly disproved or not… For all i know my thoughts and concerns will turn out to be way off base….I will at least get another perspective besides my own.
My prayers to Stevie Mike and to Chris to their families and the community as well as to all that care.
AJMO
Peace goodnight
Ill post the rest- ASAP
Thanks
Excellent posts as usual, Mom3.0. I never tire of reading your analyses, not only in this case, but other cases Blink covers.
Mom3.0, I think one of your earlier posts mentioned that one of the boys (Michael?) had black eyes. I will have to review the autopsies yet again, as I can’t recall which boy it was. Just wanted to mention that outward signs of a basilar skull fracture can be black eyes (sometimes described as raccoon eyes) and “Battle’s sign(s)”, bruising behind the ears (named after a British physician named Dr. Battle who discovered this link between the bruising and basilar fractures). Also, in basilar and other skull fractures, cerebrospinal fluid can leak from the ears and/or nose.
Last, but never least, a shout out to Blink, who NEVER seems to tire of speaking out for those who can no longer speak for themselves. God bless you.
He surely does Grace, every day. Thank you kindly friend.
Wrt the posterier bi-lateral ear linear scratches and bruising, iirc, as described at autopsy, I don’t think there is any disagreement they are topical “lacerations” meaning scratched and effaced the surface of the skin by some sharp friction. They are not subdural.
B
I just made the HUGE mistake of viewing our wee cubs autopy and crime seen photos. Graphic isn’t a sufficient word to describe the state of their bodies post mortem.
Without being detailed, I will say the bodies were all tortured in very different manners. In other words, the OBVIOUS injuries (not possible post mortem injuries) were unique and distinct on each boy. Each one suffered a different death (I am trying to be delicate with my wording….forgive me if I’m vague or looking like captain obvious).
There’s little doubt in my mind this was done by 1 person.
….it’s just that…..the injuries…the number of them, the intensity of them …I swear, it looked like someone went rank on these poor little bodies until time or the adrenaline rush ran out.
I don’t know how anyone could look at photos such as these and NOT CONSIDER their possible guilt.
This case has been ‘over thinked/thunked’, if that makes sense. Nothing bombards the truth more than too many theories (this is NOT an attack on anyone at this site).
This crime was committed in a smaller community. Who drifts into a small community and ends up slaughtering 3 young precious boys?
You go from the inside out….and if the shoe fits, it’s gotta be assessed. Mistakes were made due to inexperience. Every single murder case in this world is NOT immune to possible contamination, misrepresented or misinterpretation of evidence. Where there are humans, there are errors. Haven’t we learned this yet?
I’m proud that the posters on this site are about advocacy, not being right or wrong. It’s always been about the search for truth.
As a mother, when I viewed those photos, I fell apart. I regret with all my heart that I allowed myself to view them. My son is laying on the couch, fighting the worse flu he’s had. I can’t even go there. I think about the WM3, especially Echols and I naturally shudder. Not because of their appearance, but because of the evil I sense when I look at their pics. Does this make them guilty? Not in the court of law.
Guilty. Guilty. Guilty.
MVHO
There’s little doubt in my mind this was done by 1 person….
….should read, there’s little doubt a single person could have done this. I don’t know how I could get that so backwards.
Ragdoll I was very confused with what you wrote about a lone killer until I read the next post : ). I’m looking forward to reading Mom’s theory on what happened. It’s a bit of a surprise that somebody will actually give their own take on what happened on that terrible day, that goes against the official version.
I have to admit that I won’t be able to look at any photos of the boys bodies. I’m not a squeamish person and will look at almost anything. It’s just that I can’t look at ANY photos of dead children. It still haunts me that i seen the boys bodies beside the stream in the PL mockumentaries.
@ Matt says:
February 19, 2012 at 2:16 pm
This is a very personal decision and I respect that you choose not too. Personally, I wish I hadn’t. I cried for hours last night comparing their ‘life photos’ to the crime scene ones in my mind. Life and death. Why do I these things to myself?
I can also understand that for some, viewing them may reignite the ‘why’ WRT continued, much needed advocacy for Chris, Michael and Stevie. I, too am looking forward to Mom’s post as I always do.
What I’m really pissy about is this…I did catch the last 45 min of PL3 last nite. Of course it was BS. The statement about catching the real killer….not happening in ARKANSAS people! I wonder why that is. How many of those who support WM3 had sworn this needs to be done but not one has taken initiative? Inexplicable and unacceptable. Let’s just brush that under the rug and act like there’s nothing else that can be done. Some are just REAL comfortable having a killer running around out there that is capable of slaughtering children.
My other observation….why is Misskelly not speaking? Why is his head always hanging? He acts guilty. We keep considering DE as the ring leader, so to speak. Perhaps we need to recalibrate our thinking and consider Misskelly’s inconsistencies are for a very specific reason. I think we’re underestimating Misskelly’s ability to lose control (and being diabolical enough to initiate the ‘idea’) in a na no second. Would this not confuse the details of events enough to question who did what and where and how?
Regardless, I’m still of the opinion that all 3 participated on some level.
I hope this makes sense…and Matt…I’m counting on you to call me out like you did, originally, LOL. Thank goodness I edited or I’d be accused of believing the grassy knoll theory.
Hey Guys- I am not finished with my formulating yet- I did not realize just how time consuming it would be.
I also forgot that this is a 4 day weekend and I already agreed weeks ago to events and “playdates” which unfortunately I had forgotten about until I was “gently” reminded … Big oops for Mom3.
So I apologize but putting the pics together with my questions and concerns is going to take time.
Matt- I just read your post and I just want to caution you- what I end up presenting may not be a “new” theory – as it will be mostly my observations and concerns… it will most certainly differ from the ritualistic satanic killing though.
I am sorry if it seems like I am building all this up to be the “answer” to this case…I was afraid of that, so that is why I have kept these observations, thoughts and concerns to myself.
I will try to post it soon, as the more time that passes the bigger the build up will be and the bigger the let done for those who may think I have figured something out…
In truth, my posts will inadvertently just add more questions- on photos that most have already been questioning …
Please dont think I am about to blow this case wide open.
Because that simply isnt the case.
AJMO
43. GraceintheHills says:
February 18, 2012 at 4:03 pm
He surely does Grace, every day. Thank you kindly friend.
Wrt the posterier bi-lateral ear linear scratches and bruising, iirc, as described at autopsy, I don’t think there is any disagreement they are topical “lacerations” meaning scratched and effaced the surface of the skin by some sharp friction. They are not subdural.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Blink, you are so welcome, my friend. I agree with you regarding the superficial scratches. In my post I wrote that Battle signs and raccoon eyes *can* be a signs of a basilar skull fracture, and was questioning if they *may* have accounted for some of the findings in these cases. Since Battle signs *can* take up to 24 hours (or more) to develop in a living patient with a dural tear from a basilar fracture, it would not surprise me if there were none on these victims. At the same time, one can see them and raccoon eyes on a deceased person who died fairly soon after the injury was inflicted. Dural tears are very common in basilar skull fractures and the “bruise” found behind the ear is caused by venous blood gradually seeping into the mastoid area. MM did have a swollen contusion behind his right ear which was fairly large, so it does sound like some blood and/or fluid had collected there, but without documentation, I agree that one cannot say it was from a dural tear.
As for the superficial scratches, these *could* have been a separate process from the bruising and swelling found behind MM’s right ear, or they could have be related. Peretti speculated during his testimony about how these scratches and contusions may have been inflicted on the boys, and this speculation was not supported by the literature. More experienced MEs may have cringed as they read that particular testimony because when an expert witness speculates on the stand, it is about about as meaningful as guessing, and that is not acceptable practice. One *could* chalk this up (and his changing testimony about time of deaths) as lack of experience because he was still quite early in his career when these tragic cases landed in his morgue, and not board certified. There were other times when I thought he was quite good on the stand.
All of the above is my opinion only.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ragdoll says:
February 18, 2012 at 7:08 pm
Hi Ragdoll, bless you for your advocacy! I know how terribly difficult it must have been for you to view those photographs. You have such a kind and caring heart.
I am not so sure that each boy had a different cause of death, as all sustained basilar fractures of their skulls and hemorrhaging in their brains that was life threatening. Two died from drowning, imho, as they were likely in process of dying from their severe head injuries. But, I do agree that these boys also suffered varied other injuries to their little bodies, just as you said.
I’m sure every one of you also feel this way, but every single time I write about this, I have to remind myself that they are no longer feeling pain, and are in the arms of God.
Grace- as usual my deepest thanks and appreciation. As odd as it may seem, I have not struggled at all with alternative opinions or thoughts in this case by what I consider outstanding contributors to BOC, like yourself and Mom 3.0. While I am of a definite opinion as to the perps/convicted in this crime, it would be arrogant on my part to not consider others views. I frequently “center” myself by saying.. I could be wrong, so if I was…
To that end, I find the autopsies in this case to be sound, although I am not an ME.
I also believe the autopsies in totality, leave little room for alternative interpretation as it relates to COD specifically.
The testimonial interpretation of same.. well. Not so much.
I want to point out this was a pivotal point for me in my initial analysis.
There is no wiggle room in the COD for these children. I realize we are not in agreement across the board on this, I am simply offering my staunch perspective the autopsies become ground zero in a case with such evidentiary issues. A belief in the manner and cause of death allows one to branch inside out.
B
“Evidence does not lie. People Do.”