Kyron Horman Missing Case Breaking News: Remains Believed To Be Human Located Off Sauvie Island
Sauvie Island, Oregon-There are unconfirmed reports that a teenage boy fishing off of Sauvie Island located a human skull, and potentially other human body parts.
Update 1: As referenced on KOIN, a teenage fisherman believes he snagged a scalp with human hair attached, which he originally thought was horse hair. Columbia County detectives cordoned off the scene last evening and MCSO dive teams entered the water but found nothing. The possible “hair” was sent for testing.
Multnomah County Sheriff Office will not comment on the find, or confirm whether their office has facilitated the removal of same, or forwarded any items to the medical examiner for testing.
Following the disappearance of Kyron Horman, Sauvie Island has been the subject of repeated searchers for the missing Skyline second grader with no results.
It is also the former home of a man considered to be Federal fugitive following a confrontation with a Lincoln City officer with nearly fatal results. Officer Steven Dodds was able to return to duty after extensive rehabilitation.
Durham was a Sauvie Island resident for over 6 years and a volunteer fire fighter until he was removed from duty 6 months prior to the shooting.
David Durham’s dog was recovered injured following what appeared to be an accident in the suspects vehicle and is being cared for by a friend of the family. Mr. Durham has not been seen since his vehicle was recovered in the bay town of Waldport, Oregon.
Please check back to www.blinkoncrime.com for updates to this breaking story.
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Rose says:
August 16, 2012 at 12:14 pm
Well, then, the AP does refer to a June hearing. Seems to me the only possible hearing Kaine might have testified at was a Grand Jury hearing and if so, who was the first leaker of any sealed hearing testimony (from GJ or any other sealed hearing) Would have to be DA’s office or a Court employee.
YEP.
B
——————————
@Blink and Rose –
Kyle Iboshi’s (2) tweets on August 15th:
Just released court transcripts from June hearing: Father of Kyron Horman says “police have growing evidence against Terri Horman.
Kaine Horman: “It’s significantly strengthened their belief that she had involvement in the situation.”
—————————————
Several things don’t make sense. First, the Grand Jury isn’t going to be releasing transcripts even if they did meet in June. If it was a “leak”, wouldn’t he have said, “sources report that Kaine Horman said” or something similar?
Second, both Kaine and Desiree were said to have testified early on – seems unlikely the GJ would call Kaine back and ask what LE was doing or thinking. IIRC, they had also subpoenaed at least one LE person at the beginning. If they wanted information about where LE was with the case, seems that would be up to the DA to give that information, or someone from LE, not Kaine testifying about them. How would that be useful to the GJ?
So, we need to find out if there really was a hearing in June and transcripts were released, and if so, what it was about. We have ruled out the RO hearing as being the source of these comments. I don’t see how it could be the GJ. We also know that during the abatement of the divorce, there aren’t supposed to be any motions submitted unless it is to end the abatement, or perhaps scheduling.
There was a hearing scheduled in June IN ADDITION TO the RO, but the same week as the RO hearing (between June 25th and 28th). Perhaps Kaine spoke at or contributed a statement for that hearing:
“A pending Horman divorce proceeding also this week was delayed until Nov. 23 of this year for any future hearings. The attorneys for Kaine Horman and Terri Horman agreed to the delay, according to documents filed in court this week.”
“The delay to November will mark a two-year delay – what Terri Horman’s lawyers had sought in the fall of 2010, when they argued that Terri Horman faced “substantial legal risk” if the divorce hearings were to proceed while the criminal investigation into Kyron Horman’s disappearance is ongoing.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/06/kaine_hormans_restraining_orde.html
Hold on . . . the KGW video, at the 1:40 minute mark, has the voice-over of KyleB talking about the released transcripts while a portion of the front cover of the document he is referring to is being shown.
Document is
” In the Matter of the Marriage of:
KAINE ANDREW HORMAN,
Petitioner,
and
TERRI LYNN MOULTON HORMAN,
Respondent
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDING ”
http://www.kgw.com/news/Hearing-today-on-Kyron-civil-suit-delay-request-166253236.html
Blink: I was searching google re: recent “probable cause” talks, and came across this. It reads like Kaine was present, IMO, maybe the source of confusion.
Terri’s motion to abate -
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/abate.pdf
On the bottom of pg. 23 and top of pg. 24, Kaine is referenced, and quoted from a “recent court hearing.”
It also states that he “swore under oath that based on information allegedly provided to him by police, there is probable cause for him to believe that Horman [terri] is involved in Kyron’s disappearance”.
Anyway, this may have been the source for some?
Thanks VLH- I referenced that yesterday, his affidavit of comments would fall under “sworn”, but as you can see the verbiage is different and Kaine is actually quoted. Perhaps we will learn something today,
B
Having looked at the flotsam google chose to throw up on the 3 words Henry Kantor decision, I’ve come to the conclusion that like Rosenthal’s representation, Kantor is the one, the only, trial Court judicial match made in heaven for Mrs. Young. And, I would have told the FB prayer warriors they were entirely unnecessary on 8/15; they were already answered.
My opinion from the cases below were he decides with his heart in such cases, and law doesn’t get in his way. He is confident about pushing the envelope on what is legally permissible, what he calls the outer reaches, to get the result he himself in his own thinking finds equitable. In the small snippet I saw While I felt his decisions reasonable given the arguments, I felt his demeanor had an attitude, I’d say a “from the heart” attitude reflected in cases below. So, imo, it would’ve been a total waste for Houze to attend, and imo a total waste to hire another (civil litigation) attorney. My expectation for Bunch is for Terri to take the 5th as she has to and to avoid Contempt of Court charges for herself, James, and her two parents, because ER will imo depose them too, and to build a record for appeal on what was the inevitable outcome of this case the moment Judge Kantor was assigned. I have a hard time believing the assignment was random. I think of Portland area’s government from PPS to the criminal and judicial systems as “Fish City.”
Cases: he does get writing-constipated:
http://www.oregonafscme.com/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=83823&page=PERSUpdate
http://www.oregonafscme.com/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=89763&page=PERSUpdate
again, “over a year”, for a writing. another great appeal.
http://www.oregonafscme.com/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=129903&page=PERSUpdate
leads with the heart:
http://nottheoregoniannews (dot) blogspot.com/2007/06/court-rules-for-pers-against-taxpayers.html?m=1
and that method’s consequences
http://web.newsregister.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=255814
reversed:
http://www.injuredworker.org/forums/injuredworker/posts/1833.html
I like the first comment
http://bikeportland.org/2010/06/09/oregonian-man-who-backed-into-mike-luther-gets-probation-34615
another “flawed legal
premise” and “erroneous legal
premise” case on what appeared to be emotional decision-making imo
http://law.justia.com/cases/oregon/court-of-appeals/2010/a138124.html
Reversed. again, leading with heart
http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/Publications/S53242.htm
Rose, excellent research and commentary.
B
PS I realize this elected Judge is a likeable, humerous, and popular trial
Court jurist who is well respected, deservedly, in the community. However,
readily available cases show appellate reversals on “matters of law” on cases where
one litigant stirs his own personal sense of an equitable outcome in a particular way.
As an elected judge, this type of reversal record is fair play to point out, as a biker did
on one case.
@TRuth. If either LE or the DA “offered input” or “took a position” in the matter of the RO at its issuance or renewal, we would know it. They would no more take a position on that civil case than on Mrs Young’s. A supervisor cannot control however what B O’Donnell said to Kaine as an individual employee when briefing him. If LE or DA offered input it would be in appearance by an authorized officer in Chambers or by affidavit. That did not happen. Moreover LE has precluded O’Donnell from being deposed by Houze as to what he did tell Kaine. It’s called CYA and protect your officer, just like PPS. Fish City.
@TRuth. imo the entire raison d’etre of deposing James and Terri’s parents strategically is to lay groundwork to put both them and Terri in “Contempt of Court” with the risk of any of the four being jailed for a period. The theory would be Terri has no $; a money judgement does not scare her. But the jailing of herself, son, or mother might be the pressure needed to get her to talk. All this is non-attorney opinion just recognizing the Dees depositions strategy when there is a “conspiracy.” Rosenthal’s mentor.
imo as Blink said, the depo timing (enlistment being a gift to plaintiff) was strategic to get an immediate ruling.
The abatement, RO and now the civil case, really has me wondering just what in the world the sick freak SZ is thinking, (if he is watching all this of course.)
Let us not forget that the actual trial presiding judge has not been assigned yet and that either side can request a change of judge at that time. I see nothing in the Multnomah County Court rules that indicates Kantor is definitely going to preside over this case.
Either party could also have requested a change of judge when he was first assigned.
http://courts.oregon.gov/Multnomah/docs/CourtRules/CivilCaseManagementProcessForCasedFiledAfterFebruary12012.pdf
———————-
from my own post earlier:
There was a hearing scheduled in June IN ADDITION TO the RO, but the same week as the RO hearing (between June 25th and 28th). Perhaps Kaine spoke at or contributed a statement for that hearing:
“A pending Horman divorce proceeding also this week was delayed until Nov. 23 of this year for any future hearings. The attorneys for Kaine Horman and Terri Horman agreed to the delay, according to documents filed in court this week.”
“The delay to November will mark a two-year delay – what Terri Horman’s lawyers had sought in the fall of 2010, when they argued that Terri Horman faced “substantial legal risk” if the divorce hearings were to proceed while the criminal investigation into Kyron Horman’s disappearance is ongoing.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/06/kaine_hormans_restraining_orde.html
Does anyone have access to transcripts from this other hearing? It’s the only possibility I see where Kaine could have made the statements we are discussing.
@Blink & Rose
Gotcha on the immediate ruling. I’m soooo not clever enough to be an attorney.
Could this be what LE’s “California interviews” be about?
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1206/01/ijvm.01.html
Jane Velez-Mitchell’s interview with Bruce McCain regarding Desiree’s lawsuit.
Clipped:
“Straight out to Bruce McCain, attorney and former captain with a sheriff`s office — very, very knowledgeable on this case; tonight, Bruce, what do we know about this lawsuit Kyron`s mother has filed?
one of the elements that`s going to be very difficult in this case is that the first-degree custodial interference that Desiree has to prove requires a showing that Kyron was taken out of state. That`s going to be virtually impossible.”
Mr. McCain is absolutely right, everyone remembers me saying Desiree had bad advisors, right?
My piece on this publishes Monday.
B
Anyone have a guess as to when the civil suit might make it to the courtroom? I have no clue…lol.
case mang. conf Oct 13.
B
@wpg says:
August 17, 2012 at 1:17 am
Good catch!
@Rose
I love your Fish City posts
Since I decided Kaine is not LE’s channel of info
To the world
But is just working on his own image
It makes all this confusion
easier
You do good research Thank You
Posting this in case others missed it as I did.
snip>
Kantor, though, said he would issue a formal written ruling that could include some “partial relief” or protections for the defendant.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/08/kyron_horman_moms_suit_can_go.html#incart_river_default
@MBS. Quite right on my traffic court comment and I thought my later laudatory comments post corrected.
Unfortunately I remembered a local’s post as being from this site & now realize it was reading elsewhere. The local lauded him saying she’d observed him in traffic court and working with high schoolers positively. It was a mistake for me to comment at all prior to reading his bios, which I did last night along with looking at his published decisions.
Mrs Young has the perfect match in attorney & judge for the theory of the abduction which I understand she, Kaine & LE/DA share. That is that Ms Horman allegedly conspired with one or probably
more co-conspirators to abduct Kyron. This is why her case reverberates with Cruz, tho his many postings regarding Kyron generally are all about his children’s abductors.
Imo case strategy will be designed to break apart Ms Horman’s conspiracy by pressure through many depositions of all her acquaintances and I believe laying the ground for Contempt of Court charges against herself and those closest to her, enabling jail time. Only by the imminent threat of jail for her loved ones, if not herself, imo the theory goes, will her conspiracy be broken.
This Judge goes he says to the “outer reaches” as a matter of law to assure his own notion of equity. Imo appellate courts have found in similar cases involving personal injury or loss to parties, at times he reached too far and cases were remanded. This is a Judge who if the evidence was there and the Contempt of Court grounds laid, and such a finding were made, would not hestitate to use the jail consequences card in the interests of equity. Just my opinion from reading a few reversals only.
T.Ruth,
Crikey, it didn’t click until the 3rd time watching the video.
****
Posting in fairness to KGW, that they have cleaned up the on-site public comments to Wednesday’s article. Good on’em, imo.
11. January says:
August 17, 2012 at 11:45 am
Could this be what LE’s “California interviews” be about?
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1206/01/ijvm.01.html
Jane Velez-Mitchell’s interview with Bruce McCain regarding Desiree’s lawsuit.
Clipped:
“Straight out to Bruce McCain, attorney and former captain with a sheriff`s office — very, very knowledgeable on this case; tonight, Bruce, what do we know about this lawsuit Kyron`s mother has filed?
one of the elements that`s going to be very difficult in this case is that the first-degree custodial interference that Desiree has to prove requires a showing that Kyron was taken out of state. That`s going to be virtually impossible.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@January, This is the Oregon statute:
163.257¹
Custodial interference in the first degree
(1) A person commits the crime of custodial interference in the first degree if the person violates ORS 163.245 (Custodial interference in the second degree) and:
(a) Causes the person taken, enticed or kept from the lawful custodian or in violation of a valid joint custody order to be removed from the state; OR
(b) Exposes that person to a substantial risk of illness or physical injury.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@January, I think the key word here is “or.”
January says:
August 17, 2012 at 11:45 am
Could this be what LE’s “California interviews” be about?
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1206/01/ijvm.01.html
Jane Velez-Mitchell’s interview with Bruce McCain regarding Desiree’s lawsuit.
Clipped:
“Straight out to Bruce McCain, attorney and former captain with a sheriff`s office — very, very knowledgeable on this case; tonight, Bruce, what do we know about this lawsuit Kyron`s mother has filed?
one of the elements that`s going to be very difficult in this case is that the first-degree custodial interference that Desiree has to prove requires a showing that Kyron was taken out of state. That`s going to be virtually impossible.”
Mr. McCain is absolutely right, everyone remembers me saying Desiree had bad advisors, right?
My piece on this publishes Monday.
B
————————————
I’m not following McCain’s logic very well. Here’s why:
ORS 163.257 (snipped)
Custodial interference in the first degree
(1) A person commits the crime of custodial interference in the first degree if the person violates ORS 163.245 (Custodial interference in the second degree) and:
(a) Causes the person taken, enticed or kept from the lawful custodian or in violation of a valid joint custody order to be removed from the state; or
(b) Exposes that person to a substantial risk of illness or physical injury.
MBS note: I don’t see why she would have to prove he was taken out of state UNLESS they are using ORS 841 as the basis for their right to bring civil action. If the suit is based on ORS 12.110 “any injury to the person or rights of another” (the right of a mother to have access to her child under a valid state custody agreement), she has met the 2 year filing requirement. In addition, the definitions of the criminal act of custodial interference (second and first degree) fit with the accusations they are making, IMO.
TITLE 2
PROCEDURE IN CIVIL PROCEEDINGS
http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/012.html
ORS 12.110 Actions for certain injuries to person not arising on contract; action for overtime or premium pay; action for professional malpractice; effect of fraud or deceit; action for injuries to person arising from nuclear incident. (1) An action for assault, battery, false imprisonment, or for any injury to the person OR RIGHTS OF ANOTHER, not arising on contract, and not especially enumerated in this chapter, shall be commenced within two years; provided, that in an action at law based upon fraud or deceit, the limitation shall be deemed to commence only from the discovery of the fraud or deceit. {caps are mine]
MBS notes: ORS 163.257 (copied above) is part (a) OR part (b). Part (b) seems much easier to prove – in fact, with Terri’s own comments about Kyron possibly having mini-seizures and needing to go to the doctor, it seems even easier to show he was at risk of illness or injury. We also already know that he was frequently upset and wanted to live with his mother – surely the loss of one’s family and friends at the age of 7 could put him at risk of depression at the very least.
First degree custodial interference requires a violation of second degree also, which is:
ORS 163.245¹
Custodial interference in the second degree
(1) A person commits the crime of custodial interference in the second degree if, knowing or having reason to know that the person has no legal right to do so, the person takes, entices or keeps another person from the other persons lawful custodian or in violation of a valid joint custody order with intent to hold the other person permanently or for a protracted period.
MBS notes: At the age of 7, as I have said before, a protracted period, IMO, would be a lot less than 2+ years, so it seems that’s covered as well.
To my knowledge ER has never said they were using Aaron’s Law for this case. In reading the existing laws, I don’t see why they would need it in order to sue.
In the Velez-Mitchell transcript, it appears to me that McCain is talking about ORS 841, Aaron’s Law, which would require proving he was taken out of state, but I can’t see why that could be the only basis for Desiree’s civil suit. (June 1, 2012 transcript: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1206/01/ijvm.01.html)
Aaron’s Law extended the time to file a suit to 6 years, and allows for the costs of counseling and an attorney for the victim, if under 18, to be recovered through the suit, but I don’t see anything in other statutes which prohibits a parent from bringing a civil suit like this. Personally, I don’t know why ORS 841 didn’t use the language of ORS 163.257 as it is (section a or b).
I read as a logical person, not with a legal background. If someone can explain how I am wrong in this post, I sincerely welcome that explanation.
Blink says:
My piece on this publishes Monday.
B
*************
Looking forward to it!
Rose says:
August 17, 2012 at 7:24 am
” If LE or DA offered input it would be in appearance by an authorized officer in Chambers or by affidavit. That did not happen.”
***************
See, that’s what I didn’t know. I didn’t know whether or not that had been done “in chambers”, behind closed public doors. I always assumed it had been, otherwise I have a very hard time understanding Judge M’s continued abatement. But, what do I know?
@Lea. my dumb Q for a real lawyer.
If Mrs Horman takes the 5th in depo or in Court,
is that sufficient for a Contempt of Court finding
with consequences in this civil case,, thus booting
the question of whether
the criminal investigation’s focus has any impact on
this civil case up the appellate food chain?
If so, I’d expect ER to seek to depose her last on his
list to get the others done.
Well Blink, on Calif, I was reading Cruz’ online writings & at the time of the abduction he was working on the Calif legislature passing a similar law to OR which he hoped would be even more improved. Imp
his life may have lacked structure since the State repr he worked for trying to put his life together retired, then he tried to run for office & lost. The CA legislation goal offered some structure. Now Kyron’s case & Desiree’s suit does. Anyway, it’s not only both Hormans with Calif ties. And that former manager in chief of the Wall, the events, the sales items was a Calif transplant. so was at least one Skyline staffer.
Personally, I have no problem with Ms Horman as co-conspirator intentionally or passively, but just in case Det Bobby O’Donnell et al is wrong, I thought, “What’s new in Kyron’s home social system, having had a solid upbringing til abduction?” 3 things: Kiara, which I discount personally. James, ditto. Tony the Detective, described in 6/10 as a new marriage. So I asked what was up with his cases in 6/10? in 6/10, there’s this guy & his very distraught hispanic family: http://m.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101217/NEWS07/12170345&template=wapart
Apparently about 6/10, the middle tier OR appeals court had just affirmed the trial court’s work & sentence.
A pissed family system imo, and I think the guy was out of jail at the time.
later the OR Supreme reversed: detectives & DA had withheld clear exculpatory evidence.
Just thinking what/who was new/different in K’s life.
Tho Ms Horman would be the big time easier answer.
So I don’t think this has been posted. But I saw this on the Seattle news. A man in an extended cab white truck tried to kidnap a ten year old girl.
http://www.komonews.com/news/10-year-old-Lynden-girl-escapes-attempted-kidnapping-166625076.html?m=y&smobile=y&clmob=y&c=n
Now deep down I know it’s very unlikely the cases are related because of circumstances etc. BUT, since there is a sketch and it involved a white truck I so wish they were. :/.
Reading old news about Kyron, I ran accross this article (below). I wonder if anything has changed as far as “evidence” goes? Would Judge Henry Kantor allow Desiree’s case to go forward (espcially with the world watching)if there is absolutely no evidence to collaborate her claims? If Kantor thought the suit lacked merit, wouldn’t he have approved Terri’s abatement request, if for no other reason than to avoid the media circus that will accompany this suit?
================
“You have to be able to identify specifically what crime you’re going to charge,” former Multnomah County prosecutor Jim McIntyre told KATU. “You can’t simply say, ‘you’re under arrest because everyone thinks you did something.’ I mean, you have to have evidence, more likely than not, that you committed a specific crime.”
http://voices.yahoo.com/kyron-horman-case-sees-surveillance-footage-used-to-6376050.html
MockingbirdSings says:
August 18, 2012 at 2:16 am
January says:
August 17, 2012 at 11:45 am
Could this be what LE’s “California interviews” be about?
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1206/01/ijvm.01.html
Jane Velez-Mitchell’s interview with Bruce McCain regarding Desiree’s lawsuit.
Clipped:
“Straight out to Bruce McCain, attorney and former captain with a sheriff`s office — very, very knowledgeable on this case; tonight, Bruce, what do we know about this lawsuit Kyron`s mother has filed?
one of the elements that`s going to be very difficult in this case is that the first-degree custodial interference that Desiree has to prove requires a showing that Kyron was taken out of state. That`s going to be virtually impossible.”
Mr. McCain is absolutely right, everyone remembers me saying Desiree had bad advisors, right?
My piece on this publishes Monday.
B
————————————
I’m not following McCain’s logic very well. Here’s why:
ORS 163.257 (snipped)
Custodial interference in the first degree
(1) A person commits the crime of custodial interference in the first degree if the person violates ORS 163.245 (Custodial interference in the second degree) and:
(a) Causes the person taken, enticed or kept from the lawful custodian or in violation of a valid joint custody order to be removed from the state; or
(b) Exposes that person to a substantial risk of illness or physical injury.
MBS note: I don’t see why she would have to prove he was taken out of state UNLESS they are using ORS 841 as the basis for their right to bring civil action. If the suit is based on ORS 12.110 “any injury to the person or rights of another” (the right of a mother to have access to her child under a valid state custody agreement), she has met the 2 year filing requirement. In addition, the definitions of the criminal act of custodial interference (second and first degree) fit with the accusations they are making, IMO.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi MBS, I almost never follow McCain’s logic. I posted the statute from my iPad late yesterday and it shows my comments are still in moderation. I agree with you. The word “or” in the statute, imo, seems to be key.
T. Ruth says:
August 18, 2012 at 11:15 am
(snipped)
I didn’t know whether or not that had been done “in chambers”, behind closed public doors. I always assumed it had been, otherwise I have a very hard time understanding Judge M’s continued abatement. But, what do I know?
—————————-
@ T.Ruth – You know a lot.
According to the Multnomah County Court rules, ANY case may be abated for 2 years with good cause and court approval. If the information changes or the parties agree, the abatement may end earlier. This continuing abatement is what is allowed by the rules. Due to postponements at the beginning, I believe the actual 2 years of allowed abatement ends at the next hearing for the divorce case.
The only uncertainty for me is whether it can be abated longer than that. I don’t see anything in the rules indicating a renewal of the 2 year abatement is possible, plus they frown on tying up court time and resources “forever”.
I don’t know why the judge did not just say OK to the entire 2 years at the beginning instead of doing a few months at a time, but maybe he wanted to keep closer tabs on what was happening.
Thanks MbS, that would be my question then also, why, if it’s common place to do so, did he not agree to the initial request for two years in the first place. Hmmmm. Something more to think about.
I wonder if Kaine now wishes he had not agreed to the last extension, being as his wife is getting sued. Their assets are still considered joint are they not? There’s something bitterly ironic about that, his ex-wife whom he was unfaithful to is now suing his wife to whom he is still married. This case is just so twisted.
Who are lawyering up? Who will be deposed, who will plead the 5th, and whose location will be “unavailable” when subpoenas go out. Very telling information to come.
http://lyndentribune.com/
looks planned, he gave her the flat.
He didn’t know the riders’ sex in advance.
The disorganized part is there were clearly 2.
Help to get something from my truck
was the possible ruse on Kyron.
He’s a generic looking workman.
GraceintheHills says:
August 18, 2012 at 3:53 pm
MockingbirdSings says:
August 18, 2012 at 2:16 am
January says:
August 17, 2012 at 11:45 am
Could this be what LE’s “California interviews” be about?
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1206/01/ijvm.01.html
Jane Velez-Mitchell’s interview with Bruce McCain regarding Desiree’s lawsuit.
Clipped:
“Straight out to Bruce McCain, attorney and former captain with a sheriff`s office — very, very knowledgeable on this case; tonight, Bruce, what do we know about this lawsuit Kyron`s mother has filed?
one of the elements that`s going to be very difficult in this case is that the first-degree custodial interference that Desiree has to prove requires a showing that Kyron was taken out of state. That`s going to be virtually impossible.”
Mr. McCain is absolutely right, everyone remembers me saying Desiree had bad advisors, right?
My piece on this publishes Monday.
B
————————————
I’m not following McCain’s logic very well. Here’s why:
ORS 163.257 (snipped)
Custodial interference in the first degree
(1) A person commits the crime of custodial interference in the first degree if the person violates ORS 163.245 (Custodial interference in the second degree) and:
(a) Causes the person taken, enticed or kept from the lawful custodian or in violation of a valid joint custody order to be removed from the state; or
(b) Exposes that person to a substantial risk of illness or physical injury.
MBS note: I don’t see why she would have to prove he was taken out of state UNLESS they are using ORS 841 as the basis for their right to bring civil action. If the suit is based on ORS 12.110 “any injury to the person or rights of another” (the right of a mother to have access to her child under a valid state custody agreement), she has met the 2 year filing requirement. In addition, the definitions of the criminal act of custodial interference (second and first degree) fit with the accusations they are making, IMO.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi MBS, I almost never follow McCain’s logic. I posted the statute from my iPad late yesterday and it shows my comments are still in moderation. I agree with you. The word “or” in the statute, imo, seems to be key.
_______________________________________________________________
ME (bumble): I read *or keeping someone in violation of a custody order to remove them from the state*. I read it not as transporting them out of the state, but keeping them in the state against orders.
See article: what “similar cases of missing children” in Medford has Tony investigated?
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/05/kyron_hormans_mother_desiree_y_2.html?mobRedir=false
I’m not concerned about Tony. I’d like to know what the similar missing children cases are he must’ve told interviewer about
or how’d she get that info?
I don’t believe this civil case will lead to Kyron.
Maybe it will prompt LE to file a circumstantial case, if they have one, and maybe TH will even end up in prison. But I don’t believe she will ever confess, if guilty, and if she IS guilty, and won’t say so, then Kyron will not be found, in my opinion. I do not blame Desiree for trying, but I doubt it will work. Sure, they can say TH is lying, even charge her with perjury (although how they can prove she is lying is doubtful-how do you prove what someone knows or doesn’t know?) but still, that won’t lead to Kyron being found. At this point, only a confession will locate Kyron, from TH or whoever it is that took him.
Does anybody know — those perverts who grab little boys or little girls … do they care if it is a little boy or a little girl, or do they just try to grab whoever is handy?
In other words, if a person grabbed Kyron, who is a little boy, would they be looking for just other little boys? Not girls….
Lucky little girl, she’s OK.
@Meg says: August 18, 2012 at 1:35 pm
So I don’t think this has been posted. But I saw this on the Seattle news. A man in an extended cab white truck tried to kidnap a ten year old girl.
http://www.komonews.com/news/10-year-old-Lynden-girl-escapes-attempted-kidnapping-166625076.html?m=y&smobile=y&clmob=y&c=n
Now deep down I know it’s very unlikely the cases are related because of circumstances etc. BUT, since there is a sketch and it involved a white truck I so wish they were. :/.
Constance says: August 18, 2012 at 10:25 pm
“although how they can prove she is lying is doubtful-how do you prove what someone knows or doesn’t know?”
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My gut tells me that Terri doesn’t know where Kyron is.. but at the sametime I think she knows who was involved. Testimony from others may prove she is lying… at some point she may cut a deal to avoid years in prison.. I agree, if Terri “did it” she will never confess. However, if she is lying and hiding due to fear, or is trying to protect someone…
I will be shocked if Terri talks
As much as I respect Desiree and would do the same to find my son
I don’t feel she is looking in the right place
For answers
bumble says:
August 18, 2012 at 8:18 pm
ME (bumble): I read *or keeping someone in violation of a custody order to remove them from the state*. I read it not as transporting them out of the state, but keeping them in the state against orders.
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Thanks. I hadn’t thought of it that way. However, I see it more like this – but either your interpretation or mine (below) would clear up some of the issue. (As far as I know, there weren’t any orders to remove him from the state.)
“(a) Causes the person taken, enticed or kept from the lawful custodian or in violation of a valid joint custody order to be removed from the state; or . . . ”
I think there should have been a comma after the first “or” and after “order” but legal “stuff” is often not written so it’s easy to read IMO. That way it would say “Causes the person taken, enticed or kept from the lawful custodian or, in violation of a valid joint custody order, to be removed from the state”. (some custody orders allow for specific out of state visits, or just require the other parent’s OK for vacations, etc.) They’ve been very careful to say in news articles from time to time that Desiree had “joint custody” since she came back from Canada. (I never know if commas are left out on purpose or the legislature doesn’t know how to use them.)
Terri isn’t a party to the joint custody order, and she would have no right to take Kyron away anywhere except as allowed by Kaine according to the agreement he has with Desiree. Therefore, to me, the first half of that section applies to Terri (“Causes the person taken, enticed or kept from the lawful custodian”), not the second (“or in violation of a valid joint custody order to be removed from the state”) because she isn’t included in ANY custody agreement.
However, I can see how it could be interpreted as though it says “Causes the person taken, enticed or kept from the lawful custodian . . . to be removed from the state” and also “oh yes, if there’s a joint custody agreement that doesn’t allow it, then that’s wrong too”. I don’t see why “out of state” would be the big point of the law when hiding somebody a block away and never allowing them to return home is certainly just as bad as hiding them in another state.
This is why I’m not sure they are using Aaron’s Law ORS 841, which refers only to section 1(a) of 163.257 when “(b) Exposes that person to a substantial risk of illness or physical injury.” of ORS 163.257 also, IMO, could be used.
Without a finding that custodial interference in the first degree has occurred, AAron’s law never applies.
B
@Bumble. Well, that’s no doubt why Cruz was lobbying not inly for a Calif bill but also statute improvements.
All the confusion in tge language of the statute is no doubt due to an OR State non-attorney seasoned legislative judicial committee member being treated by a now-retired State legislator as (he claims) primary draftor/lobbyist.
This still ticks me off:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/06/kyron_horman_task_force_to_dis.html
During the investigation of the other potential persons of interest, the team realized that some evidence — namely phone records and computer log-on information from Skyline School the day Kyron went missing — were not kept by the school district as the sheriff’s office didn’t request the preservation of those records.
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After months went by, especially after the searches in early 2011 and Kyron wasn’t found it seemed to me that this case would lead to monumental changes in the way we investigate missing children cases. It may be that it will also lead to changes in the way our court system approaches and tries these cases which wouldn’t be a bad thing.
Terri won’t talk. She clearly has much to hide. That’s okay, it’s her right. Hopefully other adults involved will talk. In my mind Terri is exactly the place to look. She was the hub of all that occured that morning: she was there, she spoke to the teacher, she drove around for hours unaccounted for, she had bat phones, she had friends also unaccounted for that morning, she sex texted an old friend of her husband’s only weeks after the boy went missing, and this is only what we know. I’m sure there is so much more we don’t know.
These type of cases will continue to come up so we should ask our selves how long should we give LE to investigate before we allow a case to be heard in civil court? Two years, five years, never?
http://lyndentribune.com/
I wonder if, since this guy drives a truck that has a cross on the back of it, if he might have any tattoos on his person of the same type of cross?
Those girls were lucky. I hope they find this creep before he succeeds.
The sketch reminded me of this guy, something about the mouth and eyes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/31/police-man-broke-into-oregon-home-to-watch-tv_n_1066610.html
35. RedRose says:
August 19, 2012 at 12:48 am
Does anybody know — those perverts who grab little boys or little girls … do they care if it is a little boy or a little girl, or do they just try to grab whoever is handy?
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@RedRose: Some pedophilic sexual predators target prepubescent male childen; some target females. Some don’t have a preference.
@Amy’s Sister.
Imo as long as MCSO Sheriff is elected,
and trial court judges are elected, nothing will change,
and may worsen. Kinda like State College.
my comment was confusing.
If the primary legislative employee drafting a statute is not an attorney,
is not experienced in statute drafting, and is emotionally personally involved,
what does one expect?
his former State Repr employer is retired &
not accountable for drafting flaws either
This was from Texas, same description, the sketch looks similar (minus the facial hair) not nearly as detailed but at least the nose does and it was a white pickup. Probably not the same guy, but just looking around for similar episodes.
http://www.oaoa.com/articles/student-61162-school-stated.html
Question, does anyone know whether or not LE contacts car dealers to be on the lookout for someone trading in vehicles matching descriptions such as this? Just wondering.
Yes.
B
Phillip Garrido was first kidnapping and raping women, and then JMO, I think he decided it would be easier to grab a child. IMO, a creep is a creep is a creep, and sometimes to them it doesn’t matter who their victim is, just whatever is going on in their f’d up heads at the time. It’s all about control. I wouldn’t personally limit looking at any perp because his past preferences don’t seem to fit the current situation. But then, that’s AMOO.
Out of curiosity I spent time on Terri’s Facebook page yesterday. She has everything set to private except her photos, dating back to 2008. As I went through the photos I would click on people who commented on her photos, to see their Facebook page. Many of them had their “friends” set to public; I found that at least 25 of them were still friends with Terri. Many were still friends with both Terri and Kaine.
While doing this, I ran across a comment from Dede, so I clicked on her page. She too had everything set to private, except a few photos. In her photos she has pictures of three cars lined up in a driveway, one being a Corvette. Several comments about how nice the Vet was.. Dede comments back that all three of the cars were her brothers. One of the vehicles was a white extended pickup truck.. I think it is interesting that she left those photos “public.”
@Meg says: August 18, 2012 at 1:35 pm
So I don’t think this has been posted. But I saw this on the Seattle news. A man in an extended cab white truck tried to kidnap a ten year old girl.
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That is just scary! I pray they are able to catch this POS before he makes another attempt. It really seems like we as parents cannot let our kids out alone at all these days, it is just awful.
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Rose says:
August 18, 2012 at 9:43 pm
Snip>>>
See article: what “similar cases of missing children” in Medford has Tony investigated?
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/05/kyron_hormans_mother_desiree_y_2.html?mobRedir=false
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Yes, Rose, I so agree. Really, could there be “cases” of missing kids in Medford that none of us in the area have heard about? I can only think of the autistic boy getting lost at Crater Lake a few years ago, totally different scenario. Surely any child abduction would make the news, very strange indeed.
Also, taken from that article you posted:
***Young has not, convinced that Terri Horman is responsible for her son’s disappearance.
“We now have information that shows us that Terri is very capable and most likely hurt him,” she says. “She put it all in writing and we have seen all of it.”***
Put all of what in writing? Just the “extreme hatred” for Kyron that DY has referred to, or something more? Obviously it is these writings of Terri’s that has convinced DY of her part in this more than any other one thing. Is it going to be allowed in the civil suit, and if so, will it be enough to convince a jury that TH did something to Kyron? Just thinking out loud again, more questions than answers as usual.
Here is the Facebook link to Dede’s photo with the White truck… However, for some reason when I cut/paste it into the browser it comes up as an expired page… but FWIW..
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1419524769178.2059454.1264414625&type=3#!/media/set/?set=a.1278648599837.2042906.1038667799&type=1