Kyron Horman Missing Case Breaking News: Remains Believed To Be Human Located Off Sauvie Island
Sauvie Island, Oregon-There are unconfirmed reports that a teenage boy fishing off of Sauvie Island located a human skull, and potentially other human body parts.
Update 1: As referenced on KOIN, a teenage fisherman believes he snagged a scalp with human hair attached, which he originally thought was horse hair. Columbia County detectives cordoned off the scene last evening and MCSO dive teams entered the water but found nothing. The possible “hair” was sent for testing.
Multnomah County Sheriff Office will not comment on the find, or confirm whether their office has facilitated the removal of same, or forwarded any items to the medical examiner for testing.
Following the disappearance of Kyron Horman, Sauvie Island has been the subject of repeated searchers for the missing Skyline second grader with no results.
It is also the former home of a man considered to be Federal fugitive following a confrontation with a Lincoln City officer with nearly fatal results. Officer Steven Dodds was able to return to duty after extensive rehabilitation.
Durham was a Sauvie Island resident for over 6 years and a volunteer fire fighter until he was removed from duty 6 months prior to the shooting.
David Durham’s dog was recovered injured following what appeared to be an accident in the suspects vehicle and is being cared for by a friend of the family. Mr. Durham has not been seen since his vehicle was recovered in the bay town of Waldport, Oregon.
Please check back to www.blinkoncrime.com for updates to this breaking story.
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TRuth. The Aquarium
statement said it occurred in an area with an ROV competition.
probably this one
http://www.materover.org/main/index.php?option=com_jumi&fileid=23&Itemid=167&rov_competition_id=199
I see that url was ’11. Nevertheless if it was at an an ROV Competition or demo as the Aquarium says,
it was likely related to this org, to U Wash, or could be an Intel mentor, who knows?
http://www.materover.org/main/
here ya go TRuth.
Albany Co
Ben Dean sys engineer
co works with at risk
OR youth
http://www.marinetech.org/rov_competition/2011/technical_reports/EXPLORER/Linn%20Benton_PHDEngineeringCompanySpecSheetLBCCOregonFinal.pdf
which brings to mind, did Terri have Kyr in any at risk kid programs?
many like TSM are just fun.
a definite cool electric one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP9h7MP4tRA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
too bad my kids’ aged out.
Sounds like a day camp at the Aquarium
Will we ever learn more about D.A.D. – ex girlfriends name, did she have children or ties to Skyline Elementary? Did he own a boat/canoe. I hate to ask this one but did he like to dress as a woman/or own wigs?
The “not as pictured” reply from Blink – made me think that maybe there ARE pics of him cross dressing or impersonating women where he resembled Terri or Dede.
I live in the area and sadly I fear Kyron’s body will never be found. Lots of thick vegetation and marshy waters. I think what is so compelling about this case is the pure mystery that surrounds it. Thanks Blink for giving us a place to come to, two years later, to try to wrap our heads around what happened to our little tree frog prince. Thanks for never forgetting. God bless to Ky and his family, you Blink and yours, and all my fellow Blinksters.
David Durham has a very specific body type that would stand out in a crowd (extremely tall and thin with an unusual face) so I think if he were at the school that day, and especially if he were walking about during the science fair, witnesses would easily recognize him. The only exception I can think of is if he stayed in the vehicle.
T. Ruth says:
June 15, 2012 at 5:24 pm
…Could it be the “cool electric project” was a Remotely Operated Vehicle Project, or somehow associated with this same group?
_____________________________
I could definitely see a remote controlled vehicle being used to lure a child out of a science fair and it does match the ‘cool electric one’ description. Good thinking.
WOW! That was a creepy video!
Also: (two msgs combined here), I wrote earlier wondering if those long hairs on Sauvie Island could belong to DAD, who is also missing?
(Someone may have replied – I lost you when you switched threads)
TY in ADV.
Harleycolt says: June 14, 2012 at 10:34 pm
Check out how much TH & DAD resemble…or morph into each other….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MrZFVIgNGI
Also:
cd says:June 11, 2012 at 9:42 pm
http://www.kgw.com/news/Did-Columbia-fisherman-reel-in-human-hair-158462685.html
-snip
There were about 10 strands of light-brown hair, about five inches long, according to one of the fishermen, Steve Klinger.
@ T.Ruth and Rose – Everybody probably knows by now that I retired from Portland Public Schools. I can only testify to what I know through the time I retired and then continued with some volunteer work. PPS did their share of “passing the trash” – some might blame it on unions, but I don’t. If you read this law, passed in 2009, it will probably give you a sense of what was happening. It took effect July 1, 2010.
A LOT had to be going on and documented to get the energy going to push this law through and I’m sure it was just the tip of the iceberg – and, of course, not limited to Portland. The first part of the law is worth reading to – it covers sex abuse education.
http://www.leg.state.or.us/09reg/measures/hb2000.dir/hb2062.en.html
SECTION 7. { + Except as provided in section 9 of this 2009
Act, before an education provider may hire an applicant for a
position with the education provider, the education provider
shall:
(1) Require the applicant to provide:
(a) A list of the applicant’s current and former employers who
are education providers.
(b) A written authorization that authorizes the applicant’s
current and former employers that are education providers to
disclose the information requested under subsection (2) of this
section.
(c) A written statement of whether the applicant:
(A) Has been the subject of a substantiated report of child
abuse or sexual conduct; or
(B) Is the subject of an ongoing investigation related to a
report of suspected child abuse or sexual conduct.
(2) Conduct a review of the employment history of the applicant
by contacting the three most recent employers of the applicant
who are education providers and requesting:
(a) The following information:
(A) The dates of employment of the applicant by the education
provider;
(B) Whether the applicant was the subject of any substantiated
reports of child abuse or sexual conduct related to the
applicant’s employment with the education provider;
(C) The dates of any substantiated reports;
(D) The definitions of child abuse and sexual conduct used by
the education provider when the education provider determined
that any reports were substantiated; and
(E) The standards used by the education provider to determine
whether any reports were substantiated.
(b) Any disciplinary records required to be released as
provided by ORS 339.375 (7).
(3) For an applicant who is licensed, registered or certified
with the Teacher Standards and Practices Commission, access
online information provided by the commission to verify:
(a) That the applicant is licensed, registered or certified by
the commission; and
(b) Whether the commission has provided any information
relating to conduct by the applicant that may constitute child
abuse or sexual conduct.
(4) Conduct a nationwide criminal records check if required by
ORS 326.603. + }
SECTION 8. { + (1) Not later than 20 days after receiving a
request under section 7 of this 2009 Act, an education provider
that has or has had an employment relationship with the applicant
shall disclose the information requested and any disciplinary
records that must be disclosed as provided by ORS 339.375 (7).
(2) An education provider may disclose the information on a
standardized form and is not required to provide any additional
information related to a substantiated report of child abuse or
sexual conduct other than the information that is required by
section 7 (2) of this 2009 Act.
(3) Information received under this section is confidential and
is not a public record as defined in ORS 192.410. An education
provider may use the information only for the purpose of
evaluating an applicant’s eligibility to be hired. + }
————-
(3) An education provider may not deny an applicant employment
solely because:
(a) A current or former employer of an applicant fails or
refuses to comply with the requirements of section 8 of this 2009
Act; or
(b) The applicant has or had an out-of-state employer and the
laws or rules of that state prevent the release of information or
records requested under section 8 of this 2009 Act. + }
———-
SECTION 13. { + This 2009 Act takes effect on July 1,
2010. + }
Reviewing –
[note: I do not have the Blink profile link for these quotes from her, but it was posted about December 14, 2010. We all referred to it many times afterward as well.]
http://www.kval.com/home/video/116678914.html
Entire Desiree Young press conference in Roseburg
By KPIC NewsPublished: Feb 22, 2011 at 4:12 PM PDT
Desiree said:
“Kyron’s story is not one of a child that wandered away from his school or was abducted by a stranger. It was somebody close to our family.”
Then she went on to say there is one person who knows where he is – Terri Horman.
When I first heard this back then, I didn’t write it down. Then I saw it other places and didn’t realize it was misquoted as “It was somebody who was brought into our family.” What she ACTUALLY said was “It was somebody close to our family.”
Originally, I thought she was simply referring to Terri. But assuming Desiree was well aware of an SZ by then, it makes that sentence really stand out. Note: she did not say “in” our family, and she did not mention the school.
To me, “close to our family” implies a different kind of relationship than a landscaper or other paid worker or a delivery person, etc., and involves a degree of trust or comfort.
If there is a “socially acceptable on the surface” connection between the family and SZ, and SZ has no prior arrests, then even if you suspected who it was, it is still not enough if there is no connection to Kyron’s disappearance by motive, physical evidence, testimony, witness, etc.
And looking at it in reverse, if someone “close to” the family is SZ, then the likelihood of Terri being involved seems to go way up when you add in her “extreme hatred” of Kyron.
Combine that with Blink’s SZ profile (snipped): “If he is profiling low risk kids (in his opinion) it would be his MO to have been around his victims and have a level of understanding of their family dynamic. In other words, he has assessed in advance.”
And also: “Able to function undetected in the community, but familiar enough to fit in.”
Now, when I combine Desiree’s statement with the snips from Blink’s profile, what I get is not new to my thinking, but has extra emphasis. Continue on with more of what Blink said and then the post from Grace.
Blink: “I believe they have a physical description of him, thus the facial recognition portion of the cameras and the statement it was an isolated incident. That is the only way that statement does not sound irresponsible to me.”
—————————————-
GraceintheHills says:
December 23, 2010 at 2:22 pm
“IMO, if any witness had given LE a clear physical description of Suspect Zero, and LE could not identify said suspect from the roster of known SF attendees that day, LE would have likely released an artist’s rendition of that physical description a long time ago.
Perhaps, LE is aware of the identity of Suspect Zero and just does not have enough evidence to make an arrest at this time. JMO.”
——————————————–
Blink: “He will set off some people’s “satellites”, but with no obvious justification.”
————————————-
Here’s what I conclude by putting all of this in one pot and stirring:
- my thinking only –
There is a physical description of SZ and it fits someone (or more than one) who had some sort of relationship with Kyron and TH and possibly others in the family. The possible SZ(s) was not a family member but was more than an acquaintance, and SZ controlled the relationship in some way.
My guess is that if there were only one possible match, some pressure would be going in his direction as well as TH, but if there are several possible matches (and especially if any of them are well known, respected professionals or socially popular, for example) or if the choice is someone who is no longer around, then attempts at applying pressure in that direction would not be wise or possible.
LE and the family believe TH knows for sure who SZ is and what happened to Kyron, but is refusing to tell them. Her accusations toward Rudy didn’t stick because he (IMO) didn’t fit the SZ description and didn’t have the “close to the family” relationship. (Sex doesn’t count.) Therefore, the story (if accurate) of Terri’s finger pointing toward LS appears to them to be just another lie on her part. If Rudy had been a possible SZ and TH agreed to testify, I think they would have tried for some sort of deal with both of them in return for Kyron’s location. (I don’t and never have seen that as a possibility.)
My “most likely” belief hasn’t changed, but seems refreshed by reviewing and by the filing of the civil suit. Perhaps “peeling away the layers” could include eliminating some of the possible matches for SZ or eliminating some of the distractions so they can focus on what is relevant.
To my knowledge, neither LE nor anyone else has identified SZ or tied that individual to TH outside of speculation of their belief she is involved in Kyron’s disappearance.
B
Benjamin Dean, student at LBCC, a system engineer for the ROV program.
LBCC ROV team members who attended the competition included Quinten Ballard, Grant Blake, Nicholas Cantrell, ***Benjamin Dean,*** Jody Eaton, Alexander Frisk, Kristoffer Hess, William Hine, Jeremy Louke, Ivan Merlin, Nathan Murrow, Rachael Nolan, Coquille Rex, Symone Stinson, Michael Tilse, Dillyn Winn and Team Advisor Greg Mulder.
http://lbcommuter.com/2011/07/01/mate-competition-awards-lbcc-rov-team-3rd-place/
Ben Dean – System Engineer page 1
http://www.marinetech.org/rov_competition/2011/technical_reports/EXPLORER/Linn%20Benton_PHDEngineeringTechReportLBCCOregonFinal.pdf
To the kids at the Elementary School in the little town of Toledo, Oregon, the LBCC ROV team is looked at with a little bit of hero worship; for the teacher who is able to share ROV’s with her students, the team’s help is invaluable. Alone, there is no way she could guide 5 groups of 6 kids through soldering connectors and switches. Thank you Linn Benton ROV team for your continued help!
http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=156786644380441&story_fbid=336633299729107
(can’t get this link to open, it’s in June)
June Wind Power and Green Tech…
The ROV will be used for deep water diving and exploration of a volcanic feature 70 meters under the surface of Paulina …
po.linnbenton.edu/communicator/0609Insider.pdf
http://www.linnbenton.edu/searchResults.cfm?cx=009662054051664608755%3Ahgxg4sruere&cof=FORID%3A10%3BNB%3A1&ie=UTF-8&q=rov&sa=Search
Does the SZ in fact KNOW he is the SZ? I wonder if he was ever confronted with the possible theory that Kyron was seen leaving with him that day?? One would think he’d become very paranoid if he knew his every move was being watched.
http://aquarium.org/posts/833819932-The-Sea-Me-Opens-May-26
Dean was Arrested 6/2 and it was said his event where one
in which he was hired to supervise children on a Sat afternoon,
I believe the preceding one on 5/26.
Chaotic opening day of referenced exhibit which includes a stage and a variety of sea life costumes to don and engage in unstructured play, as well as a new enhanced touch pool featuring sharks & sting rays.
Memo to son in new dream job on first chaotic day. If kids are changing into costumes, don’t help them. If their free play is too wild, and their parents are jerks, get a guard–don’t get involved. If they ‘re squeezing or teasing a touch animal you love too hard, don’t take it personally and squeeze back to show how bad it feels.
We just don’t know what happened at the Aquarium
May 26 afternoon when he was
probably an untrained extra contract laborer to supervise children on Mem Day Sat at a new exhibit’s opening. It was foolish of the Aquarium’s Dir of Ed agree to to open this exhibit that day and enhance the crowd control & supervision issue.
http://aquarium.org/exhibits/sea-me
http://aquarium.org/posts/833819937-The-Sea-Me-Opens
I’m reminded of Desiree’s comment, “What was he even doing out by the truck, Terri?”.
Good research on Dean you all!
MbS, thanks for the July 2010, school Act info. Interesting, that it was penned in 2009, but not implemented until Kyron went missing. Closing the barn door after the horse, of course? I wonder, if the penning of this Act made someone(s) nervous. Who wrote the law? Who would have had knowledge of it’s pending implementation? I can’t stop thinking about the picture of Kyron with an apparent Logan Storm. Why did he flee to Amsterdam? Maybe this has something to do with this being a Landmark case. A teacher pedo ring?
***********
Re: Desiree’s comment about someone close to the family took Kyron.
JMO, but I think at least initially, both Desiree Young and Kaine Horman thought that Terri had hidden Kyron in an effort to *teach them a lesson*. To show them, you know, that they needed to be more involved in Kyron’s life and to quit expecting her to handle all the day-to-day chores involved in raising her step-son. We already know that Kaine said “Terri knew for weeks I wouldn’t be able to attend the science fair”. So when he said that, he was implying that he thought she still may have been pizzed that he wouldn’t be attending. I also think that’s what Desiree thought when Terri said “you are?” when Desiree said she was coming up. My gut feeling is Desiree Young had cancelled the weekend trip for Kyron to go down to Medford. Which would also explain Kaine’s comment about “we’ll go have ice cream after school and play the computer game”. Desiree Young felt (at least then) that Terri was doing this to get back at them, herself and Kaine. Guilty, that’s what they were both feeling at the time, so that’s where their minds went.
At some point, Desiree decided Terri did worse than that, that she harmed, sold or had Kyron killed. Kaine, OTOH, I believe, still thinks there’s a possibility that Terri has Kyron hidden.
What if this scenario were true? What if Terri does have Kyron hidden. What if she had SZ pick up Kyron from the school and go with them. If this were true and LE has not been able to ID this person and or connect this person to TH in any way shape or form…..then who could it be? Who would do that for TH and remain silent this long? Would almost have to be family, or a lover, don’t you think? I’ve often wondered if TH may have been having an affair with someone involved with the school.
This all seems far-fetched to me, but I do believe that at least intially, KH & DY AND LE thought this is what had transpired.
Being on the outside and not having all the info that the involved parties have, whatever that is, I think this was what they *conjured up* and just kept leaning toward that scenario while avoiding what should have been being looked at from the beginning, an abduction from that school, by either a stranger or a semi-stranger to Kyron.
All JMO.
Thinking about luring Kyron outside to see the cool electric one – and thinking about all the kids I’ve worked with plus my own – I would not count on getting just one kid to come downstairs or outside that way if that’s what I wanted. There’s a huge possibility that if a kid passes a friend and says where he’s going, he’s gonna say “come on” as well and invite his friend to go look too. Of course the friend may say no, but this is about whether that would be something a so-called expert manipulator would count on as part of a plan.
At the science fair people were wandering all over. I can’t see the “cool electric thing” being used to isolate just Kyron – unless everyone else was going back in their classrooms and a bell had rung and it was a “last chance to see” opportunity, but even at that, Kyron might have just gone back to his room, too. I can see someone coming to the door and calling his name, or even saying he has to go to the doctor, because these would not be things other kids would tag along for or be curious about. If there were witnesses who noticed Kyron leaving with a man, I would expect them to most likely be adults engaged in a conversation rather than children.
Brings me to a pet peeve of mine. When I was working, I would sometimes be on duty monitoring a playground or cafeteria (elementary through high school). You get a sense pretty quickly when working with the same kids over and over of when something needs attention – sound levels, body language, tension, etc. However, I was amazed at how many adults would try to talk to me at the same time – which was OK, I could do that – but some would actually move around in front of my face because they thought I needed to make eye contact with them. If I moved, they did. Sometimes I would just have to say, “I need to see the students!” I always knew when it was their turn to supervise, they weren’t very good at it – same with watching your own kids. Standing in a spot does not make you a monitor or supervisor or lifeguard. (Not saying this happened at Skyline.)
erose says:
June 16, 2012 at 3:27 am
I can certainly see this scenario being a “cool electric one” for a young boy. (“Cool” being a word he might have copied from James) With Skyline having IB aspirations, bringing in extension-learning like this for a hands-on experience at a Science Fair would make sense. Would SZ be part of this? Not sure, but I’ve often thought SZ might have become victim #2 –after Kyron– to make sure no one could ever make the connection just in case there were ever a description of SZ leaked. It could be LE is looking for other remains as well? I am hoping that Desiree’s lawsuit will at least dislodge some other information.
I know there’s been so much tossed around in the search for for answers that would resolve this case: poss. revenge for steroid-gate, breaking an abuse cycle by removing/hiding Ky, removing Ky for revenge for marriage failure, kidnap/payment for drug associations …I know there’ve been many ideas discussed. I am glad to see DY doing something — if for nothing more than added information she craves. She deserves to know.
If the investigation has shined the light on the underbelly of Portland–the child-endangering behaviors that don’t just “keep Portland weird”–they keep Portland dangerous—these months, years of waiting will be worth it–somewhat. Nothing is worth sweeping under a carpet, ignoring, sugar-coating, euphemizing, tolerating if it endangers children. I am going to include —KEEPING ONES MOUTH SHUT. If you don’t report it, you support it.
May this case be resolved soon. So. Be. It.
Amy’s Sister says:
June 16, 2012 at 11:22 am
I’m reminded of Desiree’s comment, “What was he even doing out by the truck, Terri?”.
——————————
Here is the quote from Desiree.
Desiree: Well first of all, why would Kyron even be outside the school? Why would he even be near a truck with somebody else in it?
http://www.kgw.com/news/kyron-horman/Kaine-Horman–Desiree-Young-827-pt-2-kyron-horman-missing-portland-101688128.html
at about 2.50
“To my knowledge, neither LE nor anyone else has identified SZ or tied that individual to TH outside of speculation of their belief she is involved in Kyron’s disappearance.
B”
What?! ARGGHHH!
The refusal of LE to release a description and sketch of the person who allegedly was witnessed as interacting, walking with, “doing whatever” WITH KYRON, is the exact reason why I had to step away months ago.
My frustration and anger levels at LE got to the point where I could not fall asleep one night, thinking of things like erecting billboards throughout Multnomah County, all of Portland and other areas, that essentially would ask LE if they are in possession of an unreleased description of a person who was seen with Kyron Horman.
fwiw, I don’t believe a towering 6’2″ person amidst a sea of witnesses is someone tiny little Kyron would go along with UNLESS KYRON KNEW THE PERSON or perhaps in a scenario where SOMEONE THAT KYRON TRUSTED told Kyron in advance (and shortly prior to) that he was to go along with such an individual when approached.
Also, fwiw, I don’t think much of the school and some of the people in it or that “were” in it.
IMO, tiny little Kyron was betrayed by someone or someones that he trusted.
Looking forward to seeing the witness list for the civil case.
Correction . . . 6’3″.
Re “the cool electric one”, if Kyron told a friend that he was going somewhere to see it, someone would have approached or told him about it first.
And then it logically follows that the person who told him about it would have been at the SF, because aren’t we sure that Kyron was with TMH from the time he got to school until she said goodbye in the hallway. (Is it possible that she saw him talking to someone, and just never put 2+2 together? If she is totally innocent, she COULD say…)
So sometime while he was at the SF, or in the hallways, or somewhere (out of TMH’s hearing) he was approached first and told to go outside?
The school had a sign-in sheet – people who attended, right? But if someone didn’t want to sign in, they could probably easily avoid that.
Also, isn’t it totally possible that someone ELSE in the area actually knows or suspects who SZ might be, but are either protecting them (i.e., a child or a spouse), or just aren’t really sure enough to give their name to LE?
On this beautiful, sunny day here in Oregon with the little kiddies out of school, Kyron totally deserves to be here playing outdoors in the sunshine — not shut up somewhere at the mercy of A Bad Man. I think about him often, like we all do, and hope that he will return to his family and all of us who care about him.
Another subjecct: IF TMH told her lawyer everything (and they usually do, don’t they, so the lawyer can put a spin on the truth?), isn’t it the moral responsibility of the lawyer to somehow get the information to someone who can bring Kyron home? He can do his “spinnin’” in court.
T. Ruth says:
June 15, 2012 at 12:45 pm
This is an awful case, being tried in Roseburg, OR right now. Anyway, I bring it here, because many of you have been discussing Aperger’s syndrome, which appears to be part of the defense. I hope the link works, if not google Sarah Dwight. RIP Sarah.
http://www.nrtoday.com/article/20120613/NEWS/120619920/1063/NEWS&ParentProfile=1055
Tears flow on witness stand in Roseburg murder trial
(snipped)
They didn’t just question him about his changing stories, Fine said, “they flat-out accused him” of committing the homicide. She said that once he’d admitted to the assault he always maintained he hadn’t meant to kill Sahara, he only meant to sexually assault her.
“He did so intentionally, impulsively with absolutely no forethought or regard for the consequences as it pertained to Sahara and as it pertained to himself,” Fine said.
She said the defendant suffers from Asperger’s syndrome and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, which contribute to his lack of impulse control, mood swings, and difficulty relating to others. Although he takes medication for these conditions, Fine said he failed to bring them with him on his visit to Oregon.
The defense admits Wallace committed the assault on Sahara, though Fine said the killing was unintentional and thus Wallace is not guilty of aggravated murder but of a lesser crime.
————————————
@ T.Ruth – You are right about it being an awful case. The labels concern me. I have known many people, including family members, with Asperger’s and ADHD – none of whom ever raped or killed anyone, whether medicated or not. It seems there is a lot missing to this story. Perhaps he is misdiagnosed (not unusual with those 2 particular conditions) and has other things in his history (in Oklahoma) that were not mentioned. So sad – even a relative can essentially be a stranger in your home.
I was stimulated by wpg’s post to think what may the outcome of Desiree’s Civil case be gor KYRON in terms of Le’s approach to investigating his whereabouts? I think their pants aren’t on fire already due to believing him dead, and they are just waiting to get lucky in the public finding remains.
So, best case, I forsee Desiree achieving her goal and winning the suit and getting a big $ payout obligation from Terri. The burden of proof is only 51 percent.
I think this because both bios will heartwrenchingly offer circumstantial evidence of her adverse feelings to Kyron coupled with their finding she’s involved. Terri can’t rebut that as other alternatives are black cirumstantial evidence holes. And outside the Courthouse daily jurors will have to walk through sign carrying voracious Roseburg Supports Kyron true believers. After all, they donated so will be there as demonstrators.
When Desiree wins the Civil case, where will that leave Kyron?
Well, the County Commissioners won’t fund a personal detective on his case, much less searches. The Sheriff will have every reason to let the case got to its grave. After all a jury said “Terri did it” and we just don’t have the body because she took the 5th. And the DA will have no motive to try the risky case and take a loss. After all, a jury spoke, and Terri was thoroughly punished (damages).
———-
BTW Kelly Ramirez, who’s become voluble on the donations page, recently stated Kyron often spent the night with her. How can this be on the volume of his weekend visits to her sister?
Now that the case is on, Kelly seems to have taken on a surrogate public speaking role for Desiree. Right now Roseburg Supports and THSG are figuratively duking it out over Ramirez’ statement Kyron’s hair is curley like Desiree’s. Roseburg publicizes this. Then THSG counters with a pic of hair very straight when long.
Can’t you just see the two groups’ Courthouse steps demonstrations? Kaine gets to relax in the public eye.
I’m glad it will take a year to get to trial.
Blink and others, the question and response below are from the previous thread. With the renewed interest in DAD I thought I would bring this forward. Blink, regardless of when the case may be solved, do you still believe that DAD can be the key (or a key) to solving the case?
Becca says:
February 20, 2011 at 10:08 pm
Blink -
By your best educated guess, do you believe this case, within the next year, will have resolution or not?
If DAD is alive, yes.
B
I was referring to the DAD portion of the case. At this juncture, my opinion that until such time Kyron is recovered, I do not believe their will be an arrest for his disappearance still stands.
18.wpg says:
June 16, 2012 at 2:34 pm
WPG, I also don’t understand why LE will not release a description of SZ. The only good reason I can think of would be if LE had a suspect in mind and did not want that suspect (SZ) to be aware that they were watching them. Anyone else have any thoughts on why LE would not release a description?
Agree, and add PPS and media to the list.
wpg says:
June 16, 2012 at 2:34 pm
snip>
The refusal of LE to release a description and sketch of the person who allegedly was witnessed as interacting, walking with, “doing whatever” WITH KYRON, is the exact reason why I had to step away months ago.
I remember in the beginning of this case Desiree and Kaine both stated that a year before the disappearance, Kyron was acting up a little and not listening in school. Terri had informed them to talk to him and to have him start listening to adults in school…Was Kyron having an issue with a specific personell in school? Did Terri inform Kaine of who that might have been? Just curious!
I have a question. If someone received an e-mail from TH and that
e-mail was presented to the grand jury, can the recipient of the
e-mail grant permission (because they want to) for it to be presented as evidence in the civil case?
No.
B
T. Ruth says:
June 16, 2012 at 12:37 pm
We already know that Kaine said “Terri knew for weeks I wouldn’t be able to attend the science fair”. So when he said that, he was implying that he thought she still may have been pizzed that he wouldn’t be attending. I also think that’s what Desiree thought when Terri said “you are?” when Desiree said she was coming up. My gut feeling is Desiree Young had cancelled the weekend trip for Kyron to go down to Medford.
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Kaine apparently went to the fair on Thursday. I’m not sure what difference him going on Friday would have made in the “normal” life of Terri or Kyron or why she would think that made him less involved.
Desiree and Tony expected to have Kyron that night in Medford to stay for the weekend. The picture of them in the Medford paper at their interview is painful to look at – Tony usually looked like he was holding it together, but his expression here looks very sad, maybe partly because he was back home in a comfortable place.
snipped from July 7, 2010 interview in Medford:
During his many visits to Southern Oregon over the years, Kyron Horman enjoyed playing at Medford’s Fichtner-Mainwaring Park and camping with his mother and stepfather.
Kyron’s biological mother, Desiree Young, and stepfather, Tony Young, planned to see Kyron the evening of June 4, the day the 7-year-old disappeared in Portland.
“He’d been asking me to take him fishing for a while,” Tony Young said through tears during a press conference Tuesday at the Medford Police Department. “I had bought him a fishing pole for Christmas.”
http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100707/NEWS/7070321
My understanding was that they were each going half way as usual. When Desiree said she was coming up, she meant all the way to Portland instead of to their meeting place. Why anybody who was talking to a mother of a missing child would question that, I don’t know.
cd says:
June 16, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Here is the quote from Desiree.
Desiree: Well first of all, why would Kyron even be outside the school? Why would he even be near a truck with somebody else in it?
http://www.kgw.com/news/kyron-horman/Kaine-Horman–Desiree-Young-827-pt-2-kyron-horman-missing-portland-101688128.html
____________
Starting at 10:20 into the video:
As of this interview (August 27, 2010) both Kaine and Desiree are confident that Kyron is still alive.
Listen closely: the interviewer states that new evidence has come out about Kaine’s truck, the white truck, with potentially one person in it and three people… (she gets cut off here and does not finish her question regarding the ‘three people’. we could extrapolate that she would have said three people outside the truck which would mean Kyron was spotted near the truck with one person in it and three people outside by it)
When asked about new evidence and witnesses regarding the white truck Desiree states it just makes her feel more strongly that ‘there were other people helping her’ (her = Terri)that “Kyron saw it all, was involved, and there were other people helping her, which is what we suspected”.
The interviewer then asks “Do you believe a man was spotted…” then does not finish her question. Desiree states these witnesses (multiple witnesses according to the interviewer) are “very authentic” and this information “is significant in a huge way” to the case.
Thank you for providing the link CD and allowing me to correct my poorly quoted quote
These are all just theory on my part and is in no way portrayed as fact:
Terri departed in a different vehicle or another white truck was involved as indicated by witness account that another person was in the white truck after Terri left. Three other people outside the truck shows there were other accomplices with at least one of them known to Kyron (lest he make a scene).
It is my belief Elsie was there with her young daughter based on known photos, giving rise to Kaine and Desiree’s belief that Kyron is still alive as of the above video. His chances of being kept alive with a woman and child involved grows exponentially.
That Kyron ‘was involved’ shows he left the school grounds willingly. Having not taken his coat and backback indicating he thought he was leaving temporarily.
Backing up, this plan has been in place since early in the year when James was sent away. Terri concocts horrible stories about Kaine and spreads them to their friends in order to garner sympathy and throw suspicion toward her husband or otherwise bring the attention upon him.
Meanwhile she is up at night on the internet doing God knows what but making money whatever it is. She has hidden her money but uses it to seek counsel when she knows she is a suspect. Kaine is very adamant about wanting to know how much money Terri has and where she got it in his divorce papers. He knows what she has been up to online and therefore attempts to goad her into sexual texting with his highschool friend, which works.
Rudy Sanchez is undercover investigating some criminal activities of which Terri is engaged, at least in part. Possibly some type of organized crime. It is through these associations that she begins to plan first the murder of her husband and second the disappearance of her stepson.
I don’t think she cared in any part what would become of Kyron however she may have been misled into thinking he would be kept alive. Whomever took eventual custody of Kyron either had no intention of doing so or they were overwhelmed by the search for the child and handed him off. I can think of only one reason an adult or adults would agree to such a thing… money and/or sexual deviancy. IMO both were the intended goal.
Terri is either a sociopath and has no feelings (lest she would do anything to be with Kiara again) or she is in great fear for her daughter since the meltdown of her plans and is therefore okay with Kaine retaining custody.
**my opinion only**
http://courts.oregon.gov/Multnomah/docs/CourtRules/ARM2008.pdf
Ode says:
June 16, 2012 at 8:48 pm
I have a question. If someone received an e-mail from TH and that
e-mail was presented to the grand jury, can the recipient of the
e-mail grant permission (because they want to) for it to be presented as evidence in the civil case?
No.
B
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Even if the Grand Jury has a copy of an email on file for evidence, couldn’t it be subpoenaed from the original person again for a different case? I’ve never heard (although that’s not saying much) that evidence subpoenaed once can’t be subpoenaed again in a different situation. If the person wanted it shared, all they would need to do is let the attorney know what to ask for (if they didn’t already know), if that’s the case.
It may be that this sort of parallel legal proceedings have not come up before and a judge may be the first to deal with this. I looked at the Multnomah County Court attorney rules, but it wasn’t very helpful on this issue. I will keep checking.
There is no Oregon law preventing someone who testified before the GJ from talking about what they said. There is a law preventing jurors from talking about it. My understanding is that those who testify do not hear others who testify so they would only be able to talk about what they personally said.
I wonder if a private investigator will be used in the civil case.
MockingBird Sings: There is really no way to know because the jury was suspended if the judge ordered witnesses not to disclose their testimony. My Guess is they did, but as you know, the proceeding itself is not subject to disclosure of it’s standing orders. Additionally, I cannot tell from your post if the witness in question was represented at the gj hearing (typically attorneys cannot be present inside, but are available to clients at breaks, and they have been retained in prep, etc)
If I am not mistaken, I want to say the press was barred from the hallway.
Your query also does not address the legitimacy of an email as authentic in the first place, unless it is the witness position that it’s introduction to the grand jury on is prima facie.
I would vehemently argue against that as defense counsel to the potential suspect/object of the gj probe in the first place is not participating, not present, and not privy to the matter (outside of any subpoena to one’s client or a few other scenarios) such an exhibit would be considered hearsay.
Lastly, an email that was a docketed or catalogued exhibit in a gj proceeding, where an examination of same has never taken place as weight toward the trier of facts, in this case the gj jurors, might preclude a witness discussion anyway as it is not testimony per se.
If one successfully hurdles all the above, then we have the issue of admissability in a civil action by a represented party which then subjects the civil witness to it’s cross examination if the court allows it under the lower “proponderance of evidence” threshhold.
Once that happens, that witness better have exact verbatim testimony in the civil matter, and they better be telling the truth, 100% or those immunity protections just washed off.
But here is the thing- hearsay rules really do not change much between civil and criminal litigations so I doubt it would come in, and even if it did, it just succeeded in what will likely be the defense response in the first place. There is a pending and parallel criminal proceeding and investigation, the attempt to submit an item from same, is going to help the civil case spin it’s wheels indefinitely.
In a nut shell, I would have concern for any dialogue of any of this taking place outside of counsel, and I would be advising witness of same. Everyone is weary of a gj witness looking to interject themselves on their own into a civil case- period. I have had conversations directly with LE in this case that were plain. LE will prosecute, if appropriate, anyone interfering or obstructing their investigative efforts- not at all saying this could be at issue, but man, slippier slopes are hard to find in this one.
Short answer, as you of course have a particular email and a particular individual in mind, advise them to seek advice from their attorney and if unrepresented, the prosecutions GJ witness coordinator who will facilitate any further discussion.
B
If Kyron did not leave school with TH, then why is the school not being held accountable for his abduction?
I have been asking that question since I knew he did not.
B
@Tarheel.
Because of mcso incompetence &
cover up of same
works for me as a reason.
For me there is now only one common thread between DY and KH: “We don’t want to jeopardize the investigation.” They have said this from the beginning of this nightmare.
What information would they know that, if shared with the public, would jeopardize the investigation? Why is the SZ info. being witheld from the public? There have to be very strong reasons, what are they?
I am pondering this, these answers might help me to think a bit differently about this case.
Many prayers and much love today and always for Kyron Richard Horman.
erose says:
June 17, 2012 at 3:08 am
If Kyron did not leave school with TH, then why is the school not being held accountable for his abduction?
I have been asking that question since I knew he did not.
B
______________
If Terri was the last known person with Kyron at a time when the halls were empty and all children were to be in thier classrooms, and she instructed Kyron to go outside where there was no school staff there to protect Kyron, then she essentially handed Kyron off to his abductors. At the same time, if she misled school staff into believing Kyron would be with her and would be leaving with her then she further ensured the school staff would not consider themselves in custody of Kyron but only as a visitor to the science fair that morning with his mother.
This is the only way I can see Kaine and Desiree not holding the school at least somewhat responsible.
There is no evidence she did either of those things, in fact, to the contrary.
B
T. Ruth says:
June 16, 2012 at 12:37 pm
“We already know that Kaine said “Terri knew for weeks I wouldn’t be able to attend the science fair”.”
————————
@ T.Ruth – I’ve been looking for a link for that statement. I remember it but I thought it was Desiree who knew so far ahead that she couldn’t attend because it was the time of month for the accounting to be done at work. Are you sure it was Kaine?
I was just thinking it may have made a difference to Terri whether Desiree could leave work and decide to come at the last minute or not, but probably not so much of a difference for Kaine who seemed to be more predictable with his work schedule, probably working in the mornings and early afternoons and finishing at home a lot of the time. Terri could have easily predicted he would see the SF on Thursday afternoon.
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erose says:
June 17, 2012 at 3:08 am
If Kyron did not leave school with TH, then why is the school not being held accountable for his abduction?
I have been asking that question since I knew he did not.
B
@ erose – I totally agree, but I still say even if a child leaves the school with a parent or other approved person on the school’s list, it is STILL the school’s job to KNOW that. The school should be held accountable if any child is missing on their watch for any reason. By accountable, I mean that the school should be able to demonstrate they followed standard procedures necessary to know where children are and that they are safe – in other words, that they have done their best. Skyline did not do that. It bugs me as a parent and it bugs me as a professional.
Amy’s Sister says:
June 17, 2012 at 11:53 am
erose says:
June 17, 2012 at 3:08 am
If Kyron did not leave school with TH, then why is the school not being held accountable for his abduction?
I have been asking that question since I knew he did not.
B
______________
If Terri was the last known person with Kyron at a time when the halls were empty and all children were to be in thier classrooms, and she instructed Kyron to go outside where there was no school staff there to protect Kyron, then she essentially handed Kyron off to his abductors. At the same time, if she misled school staff into believing Kyron would be with her and would be leaving with her then she further ensured the school staff would not consider themselves in custody of Kyron but only as a visitor to the science fair that morning with his mother.
This is the only way I can see Kaine and Desiree not holding the school at least somewhat responsible.
There is no evidence she did either of those things, in fact, to the contrary.
B
****************
@Blink, when you say there is evidence to the contrary, are you saying you are aware that there is evidence that Terri did NOT instruct Kyron to go outside the school, as well as evidence that Terri did NOT mislead Ms. Porter about a doctor appointment?
I have been as specific as I can.
B
@Rose says:
June 16, 2012 at 7:12 pm
So, if Terri were to be found guilty in the civil trial, are you thinking the DA would just drop the case? (Unless Kyron/or his body were found, of course.)
Isn’t it curious that the civil proceeding has brought yet more silence from LE & the DA’s office? Someone here said they thought this civil case may “backfire”, I’m still wondering what they meant?
Terri Horman’s attorneys have 30 days to respond to this right? I wonder if Blink is holding back the update until she see’s the response? I’m not real bright on court proceedings, but wouldn’t how Houze responds be somewhat telling? Would Terri even use Houze in a “civil” matter, or would she have to get yet another attorney? I wish Lea would enlighten us, with some of the potential responses and what they might mean.
*****************
I agree that the only reason for LE to not release a sketch of SZ is they already know who he is, but cannot prove it, so why upset the apple cart by releasing the information until they can nail his butt.
If this were the case, though, why wouldn’t LE release some other type of information, that would make this person nervous, make them make such a mistake. Or, maybe they have and we’ve missed it?
****************
@RedRose says:
June 16, 2012 at 2:48 pm
To the best of my knowledge, sadly, there was no sign-in sheet that day. No badges issued. Doors unlocked that shouldn’t have been. Rather lax supervision. Did you read somewhere that there was?
Again, why isn’t someone suing the pants off of Skyline Elementary?
No, the civil burden is very different, and yes, to a degree their are a few things percolating for which I am holding off, not the least of which is input from civil and criminal counsel, Atty Conner has already submitted her portion. But for use in different cases, I have pending analysis work that must be completed for tomorrow submission.
B
Blink, I so know you have, w-a-y before I had the understanding to realize the importance of that question. Sometimes I feel the need to throw it out there. Sometimes I just want to go to Oregon and scream it out at a PPS Board Meeting.
erose says:
June 17, 2012 at 3:08 am
If Kyron did not leave school with TH, then why is the school not being held accountable for his abduction?
I have been asking that question since I knew he did not.
B
@MbS:
Here ya go:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/05/kaine_horman_endures_year_sinc.html
(snipped, more @ link)
Thinking back
The morning of his son’s absence is etched in Horman’s mind. He often replays their last conversation. Kyron was nervous about the science fair and his dad tried to calm him, saying he did a good job on his red-eyed tree frog project. It would be a good day. He would see his friends. They hugged, said “I love you,” and Horman left for a busy day at the office. *** He says Terri Horman knew for weeks he would not be able to attend the event. He wishes he had gone, but he doesn’t beat himself up with guilt.***
**************
Didn’t he go the day before with them to drop off the project though? Or am I mis-remembering?
B
I have been reading posts by Eagleforfreedom at OL
Again
And always find this poster interesting
http://connect.oregonlive.com/user/EagleforFreedom/index.html
@Blink says: Didn’t he go the day before with them to drop off the project though? Or am I mis-remembering?
B
The poster here, “neighbor”, said she saw Kaine Horman at Skyline Elem. around 3:30 p.m. the day before. That is the only time I’ve ever heard anyone say that Kaine was at the school on Thursday. I don’t recall whether or not she even said she saw Terri that day.
IIRC, she also said that the projects were due to be turned in earlier that week, I believe, she said Tuesday??? I’ve seen different people post different schedules. I’ve gotta’ run, but someone will probably post up the links.
A GJ was assembled in 2010 regarding Kyron’s case (or was it about the MFH?) and people testified.
So…..?
Was it a bust? Was nothing revealed? Was no one determined to be a suspect?
Amy’s Sister says:
June 16, 2012 at 10:09 pm
we could extrapolate that she would have said three people outside the truck which would mean Kyron was spotted near the truck with one person in it and three people outside by it)
———
I think that it makes a difference in the perception of this statement whether Kyron was seen by “A” truck which could be anyones truck or “THE” truck which would make me think DY meant Kaines truck.
Desiree: Well first of all, why would Kyron even be outside the school? Why would he even be near a truck with somebody else in it?
@Blink
The morning of his son’s absence is etched in Horman’s mind. He often replays their last conversation. Kyron was nervous about the science fair and his dad tried to calm him, saying he did a good job on his red-eyed tree frog project. It would be a good day. He would see his friends. They hugged, said “I love you,” and Horman left for a busy day at the office. *** He says Terri Horman knew for weeks he would not be able to attend the event. He wishes he had gone, but he doesn’t beat himself up with guilt.***
**************
Didn’t he go the day before with them to drop off the project though? Or am I mis-remembering?
B
——————————————————————
Kaine did go with Terri Thursday June 3rd to the school to help set up the project.
Thanks, I thought so, so I find the phrasing of that comment odd, but probably a writer’s preference thing.
B
@TRuth. No, DA won’t drop what is a non-case anyway at present (a noncase due to the quality of the investigation and absence of a body). That the DA resorts to civil actions from both bios as investigatory tools speaks best to how he has sized up the County’s own investigatory assets.
Imo when Terri is found guilty in Desiree’s tort actions, meaning Terri has been found guilty of illegal actions against Desiree (not Kyron!!!), and Terri has been subjected to a major damages punishment, does anyone REALLY think the County will fund searches for Kyron? Or put money into Detective work?
Imo civil& criminal attorneys will file a minimal response and will argue the law, not the circumstantial evidence.
Looking FORWARD to next Blink analysis!
Good to see you Lorelai.
Here’s a link from SM regarding the SF project and setting it up on June 3rd. Lea Conner has some interesting remarks. You will note Kaine does not speak to being at the SF on June 3rd. Neighbor verified Kaine was there on June 3rd. There is also a link to an audio interview with KH and DY.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=9317.700