Jodi Arias Trial Rebuttal Winds Down: Fog, Fugue, Freed or Fraud- Are The Sex Pics From Months Before Travis Alexander’s Murder? Do They Show Arias Broke In?
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...” Why does most human violence occur between those who are emotionally involved, or more technically, within an attachment paradigm?
Dr. J. Reid Meloy from Violent Attachments
Phoenix, AZ- Arguably the best psychological witness presented at trial, Dr. Janeen DeMarte, clinical psychologist, took the stand last week as the first witness in the State of Arizona’s rebuttal case in the trial of Jodi Arias for the murder of Travis Alexander.
In stark contrast to her previous behavior in court, Jodi Arias refused to look at Dr. DeMarte on the stand, and feverishly took notes or whispered to her attorney Jennifer Wilmott through the State’s direct examination of their witness.
With one exception. When Dr. DeMarte was asked by Prosecutor Juan Martinez if Jodi Arias was a victim of domestic violence resulting in battered woman syndrome, Ms. Arias looked up for DeMarte’s answer. “No.”
After a battery of psychological tests were completed and scored, and approximately 12 hours of clinical interview with defendant Arias- Dr. DeMarte diagnosed Jodi Arias with Borderline Personality Disorder. Dr. DeMarte had the added luxury of having her home vandalized and her laptop stolen following the start of the trial. That information was not shared in open court.
Significant from a psychological evaluation perspective, Jodi Arias’ expert witnesses Alyce LaViolette and Dr. Samuels felt Arias was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) as a result of the killing of Travis Alexander on June 4, 2008 at his home in Mesa, Arizona. Only Samuels was licensed to test Arias similarly to DeMarte, and it appears the results were very different. Samuels testified that he never re-tested Arias after he learned her accounts of June 4 were fabrications and that was an error on his part in his finding Arias suffered from PTSD.
Cross examination of Dr. DeMarte induced a migraine headache suffered by Arias (her 3rd since trial) although she is taking Imitrex for the condition. Earlier in the day, Wilmott began her cross by repeatedly stating that DeMarte was practicing therapy without a license prior to her licensing exam, to which DeMarte responded “That is not correct, it is permitted under the supervision of a licensed psychologist, which I was.”
Wilmott went on to question DeMarte’s credentials specifically related to expertise in domestic violence and her current knowledge of the practices of Dr. Lenore Walker- largely considered the pioneer of domestic violence research and testing. Walker’s work is novel within the psychological community in the area of the battered woman syndrome diagnosis.
Wilmott unsuccessfully tried to trip up DeMarte by suggesting that Walker no longer uses her own 6 point scale to include the possibility of battered woman syndrome to which DeMarte replied, “I would say that you are being inaccurate.”
DeMarte completed her testimony with very limited juror questions, although it was clear that a juror or two was not sold that Arias’ only disorder is BPD.
While DeMarte represented the State well in my opinion; Jodi Arias remains the round peg in the jello rhomboid to me. Too many unanswered behavioral observations from a criminal profiling perspective to fit into the BPD mold.
Prior to the start of the State’s rebuttal case, defense counsel Kirk Nurmi recalled a witness for the defense who never made it into the witness list for trial, Mr. Bryan Neumiester.
In previous hearings where Neumiester appeared as an expert for the defense in the authentication of the May 10, 2008 phone sex recording made by Arias, the State agreed to a stipulation that it was indeed Travis Alexander’s voice on the tape, and that it was made on May 10.
In earlier testimony Juan Martinez elicited from Jodi Arias, Martinez accused her of recording the tape without Alexander’s permission or knowledge. Arias was forced to admit that at no time is the fact that the conversation is being recorded heard mentioned by either party during the recording. More on that recording in a bit.
Neumiester was able to magnify the very haunting last image of a live Travis Alexander’s face in the shower, specifically his iris, and gain agreement via stipulation that the reflective image contained therein is that of Jodi Arias. She was not holding a gun or knife and the image was time-stamped correctly.
This was the second time Juan Martinez agreed to a stipulation from the same expert witness regarding the recorded media, both digital and audio in this case- outside the presence of the jury.
Mr. Neumiester is an expert witness for colleagues in Mr. Martinez’s own office as well as the Mesa Police Department. Might suggest offsite meetings going forward.
The final witness listed for the State’s rebuttal case is an investigator for the Mesa County Police who specializes in computer forensics, Detective Robert Brown. Detective Brown describes himself as a Computer Forensics Detective:
As a Digital Forensics expert, I possess attention to detail in my forensic capability, as well as the ability to explain complex technical concepts in a non-technical manner.
In the course of my regular duties, I also perform the following:
-Support ongoing internal investigations and litigation matters
-Utilize a variety of forensic tools (Encase, FTK, Helix, Cellebrite, Wireshark, etc.)
-Perform storage forensics (for example, hard drives, phones, USB storage)
-Perform network captures for traffic analysis
-File-system analysis and file carving (for example, to extract email, documents, and other trace evidence)
-Identifying , collection and analyzing electronic information, relevant to a case, incident or event of interest
-Establish timelines and patterns of activity of individuals and electronic devices and software
-Following forensically sound practices, including preserving chain of custody
-Efficiently and effectively report progress, risks and issues associated with assignments to varying levels of management
Following sound practices including preservation of chain of custody is looking like a welcome addition to this case.
In testimony from Detective Michael Melendez where the images allegedly taken by Travis’s camera were recovered from the deleted or unallocated portions of the memory stick via Encase software we learned that the infamous afternoon of highly graphic sex images of both Travis and Jodi that were dated and time-stamped on June 4th took place that afternoon prior to Travis’s murder.
Thus, making Jodi Arias an invited guest.
As an invited guest spending the day indelicato delicto, it certainly makes it difficult to prove the felony murder charge she is facing- and does not help the pre-meditation or murder in the first degree allegation because the basic motive is that Jodi went there to murder Travis because he was not going to take her to Cancun. While certainly a possibility, I would offer that just about every psychological professional who sat across from Arias missed the fact that she literally saw her old boyfriends more than once along her trek that ended up with her last breakup. Weird, yes.
Otherwise known as a raging sign of dependent personality disorder.
…” You are the worst thing that has ever happened to me…”
-Travis Alexander
According to the text messages back and forth between Jodi and Travis the weeks prior to his murder, it was patently clear that Alexander wanted Arias out of his life for good.
Has what the state since learned after having Jodi on the stand under oath and repeated in cross examination opened the door to further investigation of the electronic media in this case in preparation for rebuttal? Looks that way.
Keeping in mind that the phone sex recording was May 10th. About a week later, Arias testified, she thought the phone was stolen. She alleges it was found by her Aunt in 2010 in her grandfather’s car. This would be the same aunt that she pointed out in court, and who has not been seen in court in weeks although she had attended daily.
Arias writes in her journal entry May 22, 2008 that there are several explicit photos on her stolen phone, and 2 recorded sex tapes. In 2010, Arias though her attorneys, deliver this phone into evidence with no chain of custody information in a then 2 year old case. Miraculously, this occurs just as Arias is moving from the “maybe not the ninja’s” defense. From the defense perspective it has some statements from Alexander on it that they feel support’s their defense. From the State’s perspective it proves that Arias was certainly very open to the sexual practices of the couple and never felt abused, nor was she put off by the comments by Alexander.
A win-win for both sides so why not agree to its stipulation, right?
Is this why Juan Martinez was hammering home the journal entry written about the “fruitful imaginations” the two explored, causing Arias to miss Lonnie’s christening?
The infamous sugar fest that takes place just before Arias allegedly walks in on Alexander in masturbatory behavior where some image of a boy lands at her feet on January 21st? I note that one of the pictures allegedly from the June 4th date seems to show Alexander engaged in some self-satisfaction that ended with a surprise photo taken from the point of view of the chair next to him.
You’ll see where I am going with this momentarily.
Zulu Time Sex Chat
I have listened to the recording more times than one should have to, and I note that within that conversation ( which is clearly edited, you can hear the fast forwards or dead time during the recording) the sexual tryst they discuss sounds very much like what was captured on the images as presented previously as occurring on June 4th. If you have no concern about losing your lunch, it can be found here. Because of the nature of the material I am not quoting directly.
Graphic Warning, Sexually Explicit Material
Points in Conversation that Match Images
- Jodi discusses her fresh Brazilian and her being unsure if Travis would like that. She mentions Travis wakes her up after she fell asleep in the chair by preforming a sex act on her. There is no question that Jodi is freshly waxed in those images.
- Travis discusses the point of view shots of her “anatomy”.
- Jodi mentions that her hair was IN BRAIDS. In the police interview Flores refers to them as pigtails and Jodi responds “Are you sure it’s me, pigtails? They are not pigtails, they are braids and it is through this verbiage I believe we see Jodi restate that the pics are from another time. She is adamant on that until unfortunately Flores gives it up he has those 2 pics taken from the scene accidently.
- Jodi asks Travis to check out her new profile pic, he does, tells her how photogenic she is, and at no time says… O, you changed your hair color to brown. We know she took pics from her own camera May 10 and she was a brunette. Arias testified her hair was brown prior to leaving Mesa.
- Travis mentions the introduction of KY into the relationship. It is laying on the bed in the images, however, he says during the call when he is masturbating he is using Vaseline.
- Jodi mentions next time they have a photo session that she would like to have makeup on. She has no makeup on in these images.
- In a very close-up point of view shot, it appears Ms. Arias is using her vaginal canal as a tootsie pop holder. The tootsie pop incident occurs only once and prior to June 4th as it is discussed during the tootsietape.
I am aware that Det. Melendez says that the timestamps are from the image files, however, he never offers any explanation as to why some have it and many do not. Nor is he asked how if Neumiester was able to pull EXIF data identifying the shower image as taken from Travis’s camera from a similarly deleted image, why he was not able to. Likely why Mr. Neumiester was kept off the stand via the State’s agreement to the stipulation that has the legal community scratching its collective head.
My current thought bubble: Why would the prosecution take the murder weapons out of the hands of the suspect and in one fell swoop support her account of events as opposed to allowing Judge Stephens to rule on the Daubert hearing?
My current thought bubble response: Because it opens the door that has a little bottle labeled drink me on the other side.
Exhibit #215 Is Fat
No, not a person. The blue SD card labeled exhibit #215, confirmed by the State by its two witnesses Heather Connor and Det Melendez to be the card where all deleted images were extracted.
There’s just one problem with that. Well, maybe two. Connor stated it was located in the bottom of the washer along with the camera battery cover, which were separate from the camera itself. In fact, one can see the battery pack in the camera from the image taken into the washer.
Melendez stated he found the card or memory stick inside the camera when he opened its cover door.
Duo v SD blue
How did it get there if he was the only one who handled it, and how does he account for the fact that it is definitely not compatible with Travis’s camera a Sony (insert model).
Travis’s camera used a proprietary Sony duopro memory stick which is thinner and rectangular, and included notches for locking the data contained on it. The blue SD card cannot and does not fit inside the camera.
SO….
How does one account for the fact that there is only one card located in exhibit #215 and it is indeed now a Sony duopro, and it is NOT the same card pictured in the envelope presented by Thomas through prosecutor Juan Martinez.
As much as it pains me to say this- Jodi told them that herself and Det. Flores confirmed it during their interview on July 15, 2008.
Excerpted in pertinent part, my actual case bench notes from 4/2/13:
1:57 starts discussion on card- notes for review, upload and feedback
JA: To me pictures are very compelling but I know they can be modified, altered and I don’t know but I think date and time stamps can be tampered with.
Flores: we did not modify anything. Say like a computer, we take a mirror copy of it, and we don’t even touch it…. That’s exactly what we do with the photos. We don’t work with the originals and we make an exact duplicate copy and we work with the copy..And our guys are so good, that every case that I know of, has never been lost in court
(Note b: That sounds dangerously like no jury will ever convict me, ugh.)
8:34
Arias begins to ask Flores if they have her camera from storage.
Flores responds do you remember taking these pictures?
Arias: we took many pictures, vaguely
9:00
Arias in response to Flores saying they both deleted everything off both or all devices (sic) says prior to Travis getting his camera, all those pictures were on her camera.
Flores: All these same pictures?
Arias: I dunno, we took a bunch the week before I left
Arias: What I am asking is it possible that my memory card is in his camera? They are interchangeable.
(Note b: This may be why she needed the software and cord found in office. Ref my observations that the cord image appears to have red staining, but was not marked for testing. Imo, this is why she states they had sex on the desk. She knew her DNA from the cut would be there.)
Flores: How do you know they are interchangeable?
Arias: That’s why I am asking.
Flores: Just a regular ole standard SD card.
Arias: That’s why I am asking, cause I’ve got one that is like, this big (Note b: draws on his pad lefty)
For my professional camera it is like long and think like a cracker. My other one is more like this big (note b: Draws but in context shown to be larger than the first. She is indicating they are 2 different sizes.)
Flores: they are not interchangeable…His camera was here and your camera was there, why would those be on his camera?
Arias: My camera in storage that is broken but it is still there, I had several memory cards for it that I don’t have any more, and I guess what I am saying.
Flores: so are you saying all these pictures are on that camera?
Arias; no, it’s so farfetched but I guess it’s possible my card fits
Flores: So you’re saying maybe somebody took your memory card?
Arias: No, what I am saying is that if I left my memory cards at his house he could have used it in his camera. (Note b: This is prior to the trip to the big house. Please note how incredibly detrimental it is to call your suspect on the phone and tell them about all your subpoenas and warrants coming her way six weeks earlier- tends to lead to destruction of evidence, witness tampering, I could go on.)
Of particular interest, was Flores’s commentary that the experts on the hard drive and imaging testing (Melendez et al) have never lost a case where they presented evidence?
While that may be true, there was more than a few things he got wrong in that exchange.
- While on the stand initially calling the duopro card a SIM card, Melendez stated that SIM cards are smaller and primarily used in phones. This is an incorrect explanation. The storage format Martinez was referring to as a SIM is actually Micro SD. However, no micro SD cards have been admitted into evidence at trial.
- In Flores’s interview, he expressly stated that the analysts DID NOT work with the original card or cards in the case that they only make a copy, a mirror copy and work with that. Again, incorrect as we heard Melendez testify that he could not read the card removed until he placed the card directly into his “forensic machine”. No copy was ever made and the images recovered consisted then of deleted and non-deleted items from the card Melendez testified he removed from Travis’s camera himself.
Is it possible Jodi is correct, and Travis had an SD card from her camera and that was the camera used to shoot the tawdry tryst? Whereby he subsequently loaded the amateur effort himself onto the duopro card via the USB attachment and software loaded on his computer? If indeed Melendez was able to recover the deleted images from the duopro card, this would account for why the romp images were on his camera card although Travis and Jodi had not seen each other since its purchase.
Travis also had a Sony video camera that would also use a Sony duopro card enabling him to use the one he had in both. Travis’s video camera has not been referenced as evidence or an exhibit in the trial to date.
Potentially solving the dilemma of how the images get on Travis’s camera- if in fact they predate June 4th unfortunately does not address either how two of the state’s own witnesses testify differently about the same pieces of evidence that cannot possibly be the same storage device or the problems in chain of custody of same.
If Jodi was not the invited guest she claims she was as evidenced previously by the pictures thought to be taken on June 4th, what was she doing there exactly?
Did Travis Alexander even know she was in the house before he spots her holding something other than a gun or knife as he looks out of the shower for the last time?
Travis’s roommate Enrique’s statement to Flores seems to support the theory that at the very least, he was not aware Jodi was in the home when he spoke to Travis that morning and Travis shared he had not gotten any sleep. During her interview Jodi knew nothing of the new second roommate (until Flores outright told her about him and that he was at work) but she definitely would have if she came in through the garage because his car was parked in it.
Does this lend credence to the screen outside being removed by Jodi to the office window laying on the ground for entrance purposes?
Court resumes tomorrow after a closed hearing today. With the general public consensus after a nearly 4 month trial that most are no closer to the truth about what actually happened at casa de alexander on June 4, 2008 other than the outcome, this jury has its work cut out for them.
Please join me this evening discussing this case on THE DANA PRETZER SHOW- LIVE at 9PM EST.
Contributing Editor: Jacqueline Beaufort
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Yes, nice daydream in an Ally McBeal kind of way!
If D was going to rebut the Borderline dx, they needed a forensic psychiatrist.
Imo personality disorder diagnosis & treatment is not Geffner’s expertise:
http://www.blattafram.is/FileLib/skjalasafn/BriefBioforRGeffner507.doc
Looks like D is doing another pass at Dom Violence & its effects rather than sur-rebuttal.
@Amys Sister says:
April 24, 2013 at 6:20 pm
“@ Lyla, I’m going to play a juror also. If I believe Jodi is on the stand lying to me that’s one thing. If it’s proven Jodi is on the stand lying to me I’m voting guilty in the first degree in light of all the evidence.
Even a juror who believed Jodi was abused may now be questioning that based on the fact that Jodi has never stopped lying.”
———————————————————————
She’s has (not the prosecution) proven to me to be a habitual liar. It’s been tough to listen to weeks of testimony dehumanizing Travis Alexander. She’s had her due process and judgement day is coming. My thoughts and appreciation to the jury as they continue to carry out their civic duty.
Yes good,kind,patient people it is I again. I need someone to spell it out for me in the simplest terms possible.
1. Was it expected that the photos would come into play today?
2. Was it expected the shelving would come into play today?
3. Am I correct in assuming it was a win for JM that Nurmi was not able to continue his line of questioning with regards to 48 hours interview that Flores gave.
4. What was the last in chambers discussion about?
5. Am I wrong to feel that today was a good day for JM?
6. Did the judge approve the rebuttal witness for defense?
7. Is there other things going on that I have missed?
Again thank you for your patience..I guess I am looking for a summary of today and the ramifications for the defense/prosecution that these events have.
I’m sure that a few answers cover all my questions, but I figured I would itemize to make it a bit more clear about what I am looking for in information.
@tiberious
Through the conversation among Arias trial professionals, the closed in chambers meeting was a hearing about the defense being able to present an additional lessor charge for the jury to be able to consider in deliberations, which is manslaughter.
Rose
The reply that Blink gave your question about the little .25 Cal. automatic is true for those little guns. They are very small and all the parts are machined to a fine tolerance in the thousandth of an inch.
A revolver in that size is much more likely to function properly with little or no maintenance.
One of the problems with all automatics is the differences in shell casings from different manufacturers. In all auto fire guns, there are some manufacturers ammunition that will not work reliably and cause jams. Each gun is different in every caliber. It is up to the owner to fire various ammunition and find those that work best. Or, take it to a reliable gunsmith and have it modified to handle a greater variety of shell casings.
Dirt and poor maintenance is the primary reason for malfunctions with guns. All gun powder will leave residue on working parts and barrels.
The bullet damage from a shot is dependent upon the speed and the actual energy produced by the amount of powder in the casing and the amount of time it travels in an enclosed space as in a barrel(length). The next thing is the actual mass of the bullet and how it deforms when hitting an animal or human.
Most military weapons are designed to do the maximum damage possible with the mass of the bullet and the speed. There are two effects of a bullet hitting a target. The effect of the bullet mass and the shock wave created by the speed of the bullet.
The speed of sound is dependent upon the air density for an actual calculation, but it is at sea level approx. 768 mph. This is around 1100 fps or Mach one speed. Most rifle shots will leave the barrel at speeds greater than 1100 fps. The little .223 bullet fired by an AR-15 style rifle is often traveling at Mach 3 and faster. The shock wave does more damage than the mass or deformation of the bullet.
In contrast, few revolver or automatic pistols can move a bullet at Mach one speed because the short barrels do not give the powder explosion enough time to reach that speed.
The barrel time of a little .25 cal. bullet is in the miliseconds so it does not reach a high speed and the muzzle energy is somewhere in the 60 to 65 Ft.Lb. range. The powder charge has not enough time to push the bullet to a high speed or impart a high amount of energy.
I hope this helps everyone to have a little better understanding of what bullets actually do.
Detective Flores was on the stand today in the prosecution rebuttal case. I was not impressed with his work. He admitted he did not measure anything but the height of the shelf units.
Those units were dirt cheap construction. They were built with a low density particleboard core and vinyl covering. The length of each shelf was, in the shoe section, 30 inches and their depth in all sections was 11 1/4 inches (his guess was 16 inches). He did manage to find the four metal pins and demonstrate the tip up that would occur if someone stepped on the front of the shelf.
The one thing that was not shown was if the units were attached to the wall. There was no evidence they were in the photos. They could be attached at the top and we could not see it. If they were not attached to the wall, they would be pulled over on someone placing a sudden weight on them. More reasons for doubting Jodi’s story.
I had to laugh at flores description of the ceiling joists as beams. It is obvious from his testimony that he knows little about house or building terminology. He did not personally inspect the attic and there were no photos of it introduced.
They searched the house looking for evidence of someone owning a gun and found nothing. There were no bullets found or anything in the way of a cleaning kit or a scabbard for carrying a gun. Travis did not own a gun. Another strike against Jodi. The gun arrived with her.
If anyone was watching the expression on Jodi’s grandmothers face during the description of the gun information, it told me all I needed to know about the source of the gun. Grandmother looked at the ceiling and seem to be resigned that at last she understood what happened to the gun that had been reported stolen.
I’ve never seen some of these pictures before. Whose hand is that? It doesn’t look like her long bony fingers.
http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/arizonavjodiarias/media/Camera%20Photos/555271_10101261502001680_30198396_n_zps65f6d629.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3#/user/arizonavjodiarias/media/Camera%20Photos/travis13_zpseed850ec.jpg.html?sort=3&o=16&_suid=136689837512707647335766883068
Juan martinez.
B
Whew! Thank you
@atg. TY for your enlightening teaching. My OT question had referred to a 9mm ( because it was the only gun of the Boston brutes). I wanted to know what a man that heat imaging showed was passed out (or not moving) on his side could do with a 9mm, that is did it have repeat action etc. I believed however he had no gun. That he lived at all imo was because he lay next to the engine block. The moral being if the high value fbi team wants to question a terrorist/murderer, they’d better have a helicopter & paratroopers to beat the good guys to the scene.
Not to be o/t: but he did not get the 9mm from the officer. And to my knowledge, they had M4- automatic rifles. The firearms you hear in that type were likely induced to scare him into coming out. He was not armed.
B
blnk says :
Guys- legally speaking, the defendant has no legal burden to even defend itself. The burden is entirely prosecutorial. The presumption of innocence is a constitutional right regardless of our personal feelings.
B
Thanks for clarifying that there is no legal duty-
I guess I was using the word BURDEN in the wrong way when explaining my opinion– I do not mean it in the strictly legal sense,
I simply was trying to point out that in order to create reasonable doubt, the defense has to convince the jury that there was abuse, and I’m trying show how their case is built on the idea they are trying to sell that she was abused. If a jury doesn’t buy the abuse, the defense case falls apart fairly easily.
what’s the story on juror 8 & the analysis of ME evidence?
I was surprised to hear ME hadn’t reviewed photos of crime scene in months, and
hln said he’s never produced a written report. Is that normal?
Er, no.
He also can see damaged frontal lobes through pudding.
B
I have always felt the stabbing was first. Travis is sitting down in the shower. She stabs him in the head. There is the photo where his hair has been shaved to show those wounds. He is able to get out the shower and makes it to the sink area where he bleeds on the top of the counter. He then tries to get away going down the hall where she continues to stab. That is where she slits his throat and drags him back down the hallway taking the last picture. She shootshim in his head and bullet landing where it did and stuffed him in the shower. The bullet to the head comes after the last pictures in the hall were taken. Wilmont mentions how the blade was used for the chest wound I think once she turned him over to drag him that is when she put the stab to his chest. Could have it all wrong, but with that picture taking and timing, how could all she says possibly happen.
So he is just sitting in the shower looking right at her with no knife in her hand and then sits still while she stabs him in the chest?
Myers- sheesh, lol?
Guys- respectfully, consider this:
We have a 200 lb 5’10″ athletic man, very strong. We have a 5’5-5’6′ 115lb girl as the assailant.
Both sides have agreed that she is taking pics of him sitting in the shower WITHOUT a weapon. Next pic is of the ceiling/doorway clearly taken from a lower position in the same area. (accidental)
If one is so thick that at the basic start of that equation there is no weapon, and the physical attributes of the two are now assailant and prey- who the hell really believes that she finds a knife, gets close enough to him to slice him up a bit ( O, and on his back up over his scalp when she is no less than 3″ taller than him and I am quite sure he could outrun her).
Should I go on? It is ridiculous. It is impossible.
O and then add in that Juan Martinez made the cardinal sin error of asking HIS WITNESS a question that completely undermined the state’s case AND SUPPORTS the defense. He said that if he were shot while walking, or in motion, he could stumble for a few steps.
OMG, you mean like to the freaking sink area that has aspirated blood all over it?
You now have 9 men and 6 women on the jury. I have to believe that at a minimum of those 9 men everyone of them was left thinking- in what planet could my (insert gf, spouse, signigant other, dog) attack me fatally in this way? Personally, I could buy the gun coming from Travis’s house WAY easier if I believed he was shot last and why the Hell do I want a jury thinking then it was not premeditated??
B
Is it possible Jodi got her tootsi pop holder waxed when she got her hair colored on the way to AZ?
I am not sure if they had an sexual escapade prior to her killing him. Giving consideration to all the new information from the article. Although, I do think that IF they did have sex first, it is not so far reaching to think that she was just trying one last time to win him over.
So very sad that he was not ready to marry Deanna. I thought of how happy they could have been if he had been. What a wonderful woman she is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBgRIFxWWpY
Lip readers, can you make out what JW is saying at 0:17? Would she be pleased by the dismissal of Juror #8 and is this cause for them to file another mistrial motion?
Dr. Horn’s testimony was obviously understood fully by the jurors as evidenced by their on the mark questions. JA is showing feelings of impending doom. Quite the opposite of her perky counsel. Sheesh!
I respectfully disagree that his testimony was fully understood by the jurors when they asked him if he had another explanation for anything.
It’s official. JW is the single worst defense attorney I have seen in action in recent memory on cross of a critical witness to her case. When the best thing the prosecution has going for it is that kind of ” I make hearts instead of dots over my i’s” defense contribution in a way I can see why they came to the track meet wearing their medals already.
B
As a 12 year old girl I was excitedly running in a park and ran past a dumpster without realizing it had long bars sticking off to each side at the exact level of my forehead. I hit that bar so hard I fell to my hands and knees, my vision went dark, and I was reeling. After several minutes I still could not walk but was able to rise and rested standing against the dumpster. After several more minutes I was finally able to slowly make my way to our camper.
In an effort to grasp how a 25 cal gunshot to the head would affect me I compare it to that day. I could not have walked to the sink for at least 6-8 minutes, I could not have attacked anyone or fought off an attack for much longer.
I think of the sound of a bullet ripping through your head, the trajectory as it makes it path into the forehead, bouncing off bone, and traveling down into the sinus cavity. I think of the shock, the pain, the initial blindedness that I’m sure happened to Travis as it happened to me, the reeling and falling that I experienced. I believe a gunshot wound would be far more painful and intense than running into a metal bar.
I guess I’m agreeing that the gunshot wound likely did not happen first. I believe it happened after many of the stab wounds but before the slit throat.
If this had been my case, on cross I would have either called a witness I found that lived and was functional following a .25 shot to the head, or some other bullet wound that was similar enough, or I would have held up about 3 files behind my back and asked him to tell me if the person’s file I was holding indicated they had brain damage.
My point of course would be, if you cannot show the track, you cannot know the damage, and if you cannot know the damage you can not see it’s existance. All he was going from was a presumption, that is not a medical finding. So if he is the business of formulary hypothesis of brain damage he would be able to tell me without looking, right?
B
Seriously. Two experts who didn’t write a report? Especially a medical examiner. Maybe all the information is in his head.
Never heard of an ME forgetting conversations with the lead investigator of a homicide case who literally attended the autopsy- in my life. I feel like I am watching the Lifetime movie of the week version before the actual Lifetime movie of the week version.
Just awful.
B
Then there’s Jodi and her fake crying, looking up only when the testimony becomes a little interesting then quickly looking back down with a kleenex to her big red nose, how her face hardened after the jury left.
She’s a biotch. She just is.
There is no way anyone could determine a bullet path in a brain that could barely be intact from decomposition. This medical examiner has said three different things regarding the effects of the bullet as fact. Which one do we choose?
This guy needs to go talk with some patrol officers who have been in a situation where they had to shoot someone multiple times in order to stop them. The little .25 cal. bullet in a 2″ inch barrel with old ammunition is going to be moving at less than 500 fps at the muzzle and less at six feet.
I cannot agree with the medical examiner’s position of the bullet stopping Travis. It would slow him down, but not put him on the floor in a immediate death mode. He could have survived for two or more hours before that occurred. This is a big mistake for the prosecution.
An editor who was on another assignment today asked me to take notes and fill them in.
I would never publish what I wrote publicly but let’s say my notes were real-time.
Here is a quote from my a proff/atty friend of mine when I sent him the clip.
…” What’s your rate again? Thanks for sending me the subject of my next lecture design for the Fall semester- what you never do in a court of law if you reference my class on your CV…”
B
Sorry to upset you. This will be my last post. I pray she gets what she truly deserves. If it ends up 2nd degree murder, then you for sure were right in feeling the case should have been taken in a deferent direction to prove her guilt. I believe she is going to jail for the rest of her life. She is a dangerous person.
You did not upset me and if my comment made you feel that way personally I apologize. I am upset in general at how sloppy both sides are, and when that happens people like this homicidal and very sociopathic ( antisocial) go free, get less then they deserve and sets precedents I would prefer it did not as an investigative criminal analyst.
Sometimes I take the learning and teaching aspect of my work too far, just ask my editors, lol.
Bottom line here is this. This is a high profile jury and with minimal research one can see how well criminal trials go for the prosecution in this area.
hugs Myers.
B
Hello Blink , good day for the prosecution or better said , bad day for the defense!
Amys Sister
Your story of a twelve year old hitting a fixed bar of metal while running is much more force than the .25 cal. bullet. The force you felt would have been close to what a grown man weighing 200 or more lbs. could deliver to your forehead. This force would have been several times that of the bullet.
If you have ever watched a boxing match, one can sometimes see what effect a powerful punch can have on a person that is used to being hit.
The shock from such a punch to a forehead travels all over the head, not just in a local area. There are many boxing matches where one of them are actually out on their feet and are still able to defend and even mount an offense.
We can only hope that one or more of the jurors selected for deliberation have some experience with the difference between a “Mouse gun” bullet and a 30 ca. or the .40 Cal that police carry to share with the rest.
There is no real established time line of events at this point. Maybe JM can provide some clarity during closing argument. That is if the defense doesn’t get lucky and can create enough doubt.
With the lessor included charges now being a part or possible part of the case, Jodi could get off with twenty to twenty-five years. With credit for time served in jail and provided she could make parole at the first available time, she could get out in ten years.
Any chance #8 received a death treat? Bomb sniffing dog and all.
(Snipped-Blink’s response to Myers post from from April 25, 2013@ 1:34 pm
O and then add in that Juan Martinez made the cardinal sin error of asking HIS WITNESS a question that completely undermined the state’s case AND SUPPORTS the defense. He said that if he were shot while walking, or in motion, he could stumble for a few steps.
OMG, you mean like to the freaking sink area that has aspirated blood all over it?
B
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Blink,
Didn’t Juan Martinez then go on to ask Dr. Horn that (pp) ‘if someone were on the ground following a shot to the head, would they be able to get up’? To which, i believe, Dr. Horn replied ‘no’.
With those questions, Was Juan Martinez attempting to prove that Arias’ version of events (i.e. they both fell to the floor after the gun shot) could not possibly be true?
Amys Sister says:
April 25, 2013 at 2:27 pm
Seriously. Two experts who didn’t write a report? Especially a medical examiner. Maybe all the information is in his head.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Amy’s sister: The autopsy report is the written report of the medical examiner.
Grace, with much respect, are you differentiating between an autopsy report and an autopsy protocol? In my training, the autopsy report is a component of the larger file, which includes the medico legal investigative reports as the “autopsy protocol.”
In laymans terms for layperson’s- it is the investigative reports that go to the ME findings that may not be explainable by just the medical autopsy (including tox and or anthro study)such as contributions form collatoral interviews, investigative notes, forensic findings at the scene, etc.
I just do not know a set of circumstances where the blood evidence shows what it does, and the ME was not made aware of aspirated blood and a blood pattern that clearly indicate a standing victim over the sink as a part of the AP when the blood was known to be from the victim in this case??
B
I really want to understand the psychology here. I can only relate personally on my question which is regarding body language. For years I have dealt with parents who have children in my non-profit organizations. A parent’s most precious gift is their child/ren so emotions can run high. Even on phone calls when listening to a complaint or other information, I have a tendency to nod my head in agreement or disagreement as it pertains without saying a word. JA never does this. Is it instruction from counsel, her Dx or some other reason? In my opinion, she hides behind her hair and really believes if she can’t see the witness, they can’t see her. She has a very strange dynamic that I wish I could understand. Dr. Horn was a perfect opportunity to see some of that body language and there just wasn’t any physical response other than crying. Please help me understand.
yes, she is specifically instructed to not have reactionary movements to testimony. In criminal law it is referred to as testifying from the defense table. It can absolutely affect an ruling or outcome. They want Jodi to be as neutral as possible, but she is still her, so it is what it is.
Lastly, I will say body language is important to read, but it is she knows it is being read
B
a fictional juror 8 kick starts a NG verdict in a famous play:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_Angry_Men_(1957_film)
Aww Blink. The ME testified today he couldn’t relate (throat) injury to
quantity of blood in hall cause he just hadn’t seen those forensic pics
in a l o n g time. I wouldn’t believe squat he said myself about anything.
from hln website
“Juror No. 8
He is a white male in his 50s and is married. He also takes notes and has been observed submitting questions.”
Brilliant article Blink if theres a pullitzer for bloggin you earned it there so good I read it twice .
Bit annal but one teeny typo if you require proof read.
Arias though her attorneys, deliver this phone into evidence with no chain of custody
Shouldnt it be
Arias through her attorneys,
Most definitely, thank you ecossie.
B
Once again kudous.
Why did Arias’ grandmother have a blue ribbon on in court? Isn’t that the message Travis’ family chose?
a question. in respects, I see the knife stuff first, like the ME.
I can see the gun thing later, maybe as a pre- med set up to
explain like a burgler.
But Travis has to have been disabled before the 29 knife strokes.
You’re right: too big, too strong etc.
So are you sure this particular ME ruled out both disabling drugs (date rape) &
alcohol toxicity? And we know he was sleep deprived.
Imo if I were her planning to kill, given her drug hx with mj anyway,
I’d have pre-med gone with a Mickey to be sure, since she was well organized in plan phase.
The actual autopsy released was abbreviated, the complete tox study was not included so all I know is that there was no illicit drugs- no idea what was tested outside of normal protocol.
Roofs and other can be undetectable in a corpse depending on the sampling used in under 24 hours PMI. (post mortem interval). The converse is it cannot be ruled out.
I cant even say for sure the standard BAL, BAC, gastric, bladder, midline blood chest cavity, vitreous glucose was done in contrast or conjunction with tissue.
B
I’m going to say something that’s going to probably get me booed off the
Blink stage (I see the hook….exit stage left if necessary).
What if….
It’s best the jury believes the gun shot wound came last? Would this not lend itself to the insurmountable suffering Travis went through?
I’m going WAY WAY back to a question I asked Blink regarding the chloroform in Caylee’s murder. I asked…’why didn’t the media get it? why didn’t the talking ‘legal’ heads get it’? Blink always stood by her opinion that chloroform was NOT used to kill Caylee. (I always believed it was used to clean the trunk of the death car and remove the odour of decomp, by c word).
Blink graciously responded to me…..’that the state NEEDED to tie the chloroform into Caylee’s death’. Made sense to me.
Could this be one of those scenarios? The state wants to show the imaginable torture Travis suffered, which isn’t a killing in line with a perp who’s been abused. It agrees with someone who had a plan to murder.
JMHO
Guess what Geffner and Alyce LaViolette were up to in 2012?
speaking at the same event>
http://www.cvent.com/events/17th-international-conference-on-violence-abuse-and-trauma-the-2012-national-summit-to-end-interpers/custom-18-b1da4c68dd834500b75c020e5be82ba8.aspx
I dont get it- you put an expert on the stand, rest your case, the prosecution destorys the experts’s testimony, so you get a colleague. Will he be a character witness for LaViolette?
WHAT is the NEW evidence that has allowed Geffner t give testimony?
Conflict of PTSD in case in chief by rebuttal witness = surrebuttal witness.
B
I have long thought the same, Rose, given Travis affect in the sex audio and the far-out daze in the nude photo lying on the bed. Possible that Arias came equipped to their sex romps each time with anti-inhibitions, or that was a prerequisite to him letting down and letting go of his vow of chaste.
Also, Arias’ hair color in the June 3 photos looks like a professional color. Very difficult to go from blonde to that dark tone in-home, keeping it true, rich and even. I think her out of town nail salon jog was actually a hair color appointment. Another point to pre-meditation is that nothing was done in her hometown – nails or hair, vehicle rental, gas can purchase. When I plan a trip, I get the pre-trip mani/pedi in the hometown because I know my girl and her price. She had planned this trip for months. Working for tips, she had time to stash the cash to get things done. Now, she suffers bang envy at the tresses of her bff homecoming queen contestant. It’s no wonder she was crying.
I do not remember anything reported in the autopsy that indicated damage to the organs from any source. All appeared to be perfectly normal for a person of Travis’s age.
If I were JM, the next time Flores and this medical examiner worked a case for me, I would give them a check list that they had to get their information together and sit with me before a court appearance.
This goes right back to my take about the lack of good management regarding the technical aspects of forensics of all types for the criminal justice system.
Sorry guys but you both get a D- for performance.
To your point to those who may not have caught it- ATG is exactly right wrt to JM and ME statement regarding organ damage. Technically speaking, even relative to decomp, the answer should have been different.
B
The gunshot had to come first, while TA was sitting (as we see him sitting in the shower with his right leg crossed over the left) within seconds of his noticing JA outside the shower with the camera.
Arias knew that was a private time for him–I doubt he would broadcast that he prays crossed-armed and sits on the floor when he takes a shower–but the conniving, treacherous ex-girlfriend suddenly shows up at eye level (!) with him. The shot is delivered (and I think she imagined it would only take one bullet) but Travis may not have even felt much pain d/t nerve damage…as he stumbled out to the sink. (However, facial and mandible trauma would present with a great deal of pain.)
Myers, I hope you stay here with us. This is a difficult and emotional job you and I and the Blinksters do here. It’s because of the victims that we keep trying to take a stab at answers to some of the world’s most heinous crimes. We’ve got to stay the course for the victims because, well because, they need us.
Correction I’ve been meaning to point out here: The blood spatters at the sink area can’t be “aspirated” because that is a consequence of breathing a foreign substance into one’s trachea/lungs. Travis may have, indeed, breathed blood from the gunshot to the orbital and mouth into his lungs and then coughed it back out.
When one coughs out blood, it is called “hemoptysis” and that could have been aspirated or could have been hanging out in the pharynx, larynx, or trachea.
I’m just wondering if JA flew out of the room after delivering the gunshot? Did she then hear him coughing, the shower opening, the stumbling to the sink? At that point did she inflict the multiple stab wounds to the center area of the posterior thorax?
If she did inflict, we must convict.
Soon, very soon.
The problem you are all discussing with regard to police and LE training has to do with money and state budgets. The reason that actual police crime labs do not look like CSI is because most states if not all faced serious budget cuts in 2008/2009 when the economy sank. A lot of states – notably, California – have not recovered from that. And any state where you have a state with relatively lower property taxes – ahem, “live free or die” up north – will face these shortfalls in both public safety budgets and also in education. That’s why you have jurisdictions with these huge backlogs of rape kits that have never been tested. Perhaps I’m a bit biased living in Massachusetts, but we have some of the best public schools here, but people pay an arm and a leg in taxes that go to those schools in to live here and send their kids to school here. I would love to send my future children to public schools here, but I could never afford to buy a house in this state. In the state to the north housing is exponentially cheaper, which is why people move up there, but you get what you (don’t) pay for – which is public education that does not have the reputation of its neighbor to the south. Not saying which is better, just that its a tradeoff and a circle of money and where you want to spend your taxes. Taxes > > public education and public safety >> the next generation is better educated, the state can provide better training at the state university level, police and LE get money for specialized units and training their staff. I know it’s not that simple (depends on how strong your police and teachers unions are too),but that’s really where it starts. Furthermore, when your agency doesn’t have money, departments cut corners on quality control and staff is not as technically detail oriented nor as self-regulated in their procedures. Classic example of this is what is going on in the Mass. state drug lab. In short, google “Annie Dookhan” and that will show you how cutting corners is going to cost the state millions of dollars in court and legal costs, not to mention the damage to the rep of LE.
ATG, I think that your assumption about CJ training is a bit overgeneralized. Not to brag but I go to one of the best universities in the U.S. for the CJ field for my masters in CJ, and the bar set for students is very high here. We all came from great undergrad programs with minimum 3.0 GPAs. The program itself is quite academically rigorous – you need a 3.0 to even stay in it or else you’re out – and no, these are not students who could not “cut it” in other fields. They all were at the top of their class in undergrad, and one of my classmates last semester had spent time overseas in an Army Ranger intelligence unit in Afghanistan. Please do not generalize about a whole field of students if you have no background in it at the university level. We are quite capable – we just need to be able to work for agencies that have adequate funding and resources to do it.
Sorry to be so OT…I felt the need to weigh in on these things.
Lyndsay- not ATG, he can address you himself, but since I brought it up
I agree with you in total. I think ATG would as well, and when he was discussing the lack of candidates in say, the cj area academically, it is precisely for the reasons you point out yourself. There is no budget dollars to attract talent in the field outside of LE or for LE to spend on alternative resources. I don’t think it was his intention nor is it ever mine to indicate that the advanced degree programs available aren’t rigorous or geared to top tiered candidates. It would make me a bit of a hypocrite as I am in one and I maintain a 4.0. Was that the situation in undergrad? Er, no.
Familiar with Dookie. What a nightmare. However, I would invite you to research the FBI’s own DOJ ongoing investigation which began in 1994 re a certain Michael P. Malone.
Very different outcome. My point in saying that is that problems of bad testing, faux results and released convicts as a result is not just at the State level.
B
I am thinking grandma in the courtroom is a Hail Mary for the defense.
Also…has anybody ever asked or wondered why would Travis be sitting in his shower before the attack? Strange!
The ME looked bad yesterday…he just did.
Dazzle them with bullshit is the song playing in my head.
Has the state proven it’s case beyond a reasonable doubt? Humm what’s the case again!
Another juror gone and silent. Bomb sniffing dogs…bring in the clowns…there atta be clowns!
By the way to the poster asking about the ribbons worn by the families..Travis blue ribbon is for Travis. Arias family purple ribbon is for domestic violence.
If JA is now known to only be holding a camera, it suggests to me that he was sitting the way he was to protect himself from her taking pics of his junk. I also believe when he saw her his knees may have given out from fear, shock.
Thank God this defense team does not appear to know what they are doing, that’s all I can hope for.
B
Ragdoll says:
April 25, 2013 at 10:39 pm
What if….
It’s best the jury believes the gun shot wound came last? Would this not lend itself to the insurmountable suffering Travis went through?
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No need to exit stage left, right or front and center as far as I am concerned! JM can only work with what he has been dealt at this point and he has to sell it for Travis’ sake. Hindsight can’t fix this mess in this moment with this jury. If the jury didn’t have the benefit of a quasi~confession and this was really about determining the guilt of JA, I would view it very differently.
In this case, we all know she did it and she is trying to manipulate, mitigate and navigate around the facts to get away with murder. She can talk herself into self defense and convince those insane enough to believe her right up until the time you see the crime scene photos. It was not self defense, domestic violence, PTSD, the fog or whatever other lie she comes up with. I do believe at this point because she is such a pathological liar that she has convinced herself of her innocence.
I wish I could highlight this in bright yellow with bold red 48 point font letters:
Definition by Merriam-Webster of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE: the inflicting of physical injury by one family or household member on another; also: a repeated or habitual pattern of such behavior.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domestic%20violence
Where are all of the pictures of her at Mr. Burns’ house and with others she saw in UT? Surely they exist somewhere. In this physical altercation, she would have at least had sore muscles and probably some bruising or bumps. Well-played to hide her participation in this slaughter. Justice for Travis must be served and that does not include her ever having the opportunity to walk the face of this planet as a free woman again.
OK – off the soap box…AJMOO
Confused as to timing. When is the new defense conflict of interest going to testify? It seems Judge Stephens stated next week as dates certain.
Any word on juror #8 dismissal?
Lindsay
I am sure you are proud of your schools and that you as an individual work hard to learn at a high level. Your professors are probably proud of your work ethic.
What I was referring to was the level of student moving from high school to college with a lack of skills to really make the grade. We, in all states, have what is known as grade inflation. It isn’t limited to K-12 schools. It occurs at the college level as well.
I spent eight years, after retirement,teaching as a substitute at the high school and middle school levels. What I discovered was between the time I attended high school the level of real scholarship was down at least four grade levels. We had children who could not read aloud without stumbling through the work, nor could they write coherent prose.
The criminal justice programs in a lot of colleges were the fall back programs for those that found they lacked the skills to make it in science or engineering or IT or music. For example; just look at the recent finding in New York where 80% of the high school graduates could not pass an eighth grade reading test.
If one cannot read or write at the proper level, there is little hope of real learning until those skills are properly developed. Math and science cannot be understood without them. Most of the new techniques used in teaching are not getting the job done.
I keep up with what is going on at the college level through a fellow I have been mentoring for nearly thirty years. He teaches computer science and we talk one or two times a week. His students are far, far behind in basic skills. He bends over backwards and does extra things for them and still there are those who cannot do the work.
I will be traveling to Omaha Ne. at the end of May to attend a graduating ceremony for his third Masters Degree. This time in cyber security.
@ Word Girl says:
April 26, 2013 at 12:55 am
(snipped) “The gunshot had to come first, while TA was sitting (as we see him sitting in the shower with his right leg crossed over the left) within seconds of his noticing JA outside the shower with the camera.
“I’m just wondering if JA flew out of the room after delivering the gunshot? Did she then hear him coughing, the shower opening, the stumbling to the sink? At that point did she inflict the multiple stab wounds to the center area of the posterior thorax?”
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Very reasonable…I’m onboard with you WG.
Jden
Juror 8 arrested for DUI
Sad that there seems to be unlimited funds for her defense, but inadequate funds for the state to prosecute/investigate properly. It does seem like the defense is taking their sweet azz time and racking up expenses/paychecks.
@ Survivor
Thank you for your input! You’re too kind, friendy.
Aye, aye and aye to everything you said. ATG is right….this girl is a conglomeration of disorders. I have the DMS IV. If you read these ‘disorders’ she’s been evaluated as having, she could easily be assigned a number of these inflictions. Narcissism would explain why she’s not a candidate for the ‘self mutilation’ criteria, as outlined in BPS. I’m not even convinced she has BPS. Reading all these disorders, WOW! A lot of them are so similar and I can see why there’d be other opinions of what she has. I’m terribly surprised narcissism hasn’t been brought up by the expert witnesses, along with the ‘lack of remorse’.
There needs to be a better evaluating system to at least narrow the scope of diagnosis. Then again, the diagnosis is only as genuine as the person being evaluated. If that person wants help, they’ll apply themselves and respond truthfully.
As for juror 8…..Lord knows this trial would have me drinking a bottle from a paper bag. DUI? *smh*
As always, the posts are dynamic and I’m learning a lot from you all.
I wish I could have met Travis, in this life. I’m grateful to God, that he suffers no more. I pray his family finds great comfort in that.
((((GROUP HUGS)))) and infinite love, y’all.
“You can bend it and twist it… You can misuse and abuse it… But even God cannot change the Truth.” – Michael Levy
I am perplexed about how Travis knew Jodi was going to see him when she turned off her cell. Did they set this meeting up at am earlier date. Or, did she just show up and surprise him?
I am thinking she stabbed him while he was trying to get up and out of the shower. That shower stall is very small. He had to get up somehow, and he was in a vulnerable position. She perhaps stabbed his head at this point, or gets the chest area. A knife could have been taped to her w the duct tape. Someone on another thread said he was wearing some sort of meter to monitor his weight.
He gets to the sink and coughs. She stabs his back. The back wounds are high and he had to be leaning over. He turns to fight her off, then makes way to the hallway on his hands and knees at some point, since there were knife marks on the ends of them. He collapses, she sits on him to slice his neck from right side to left (she is left handed and why the right side of the neck wound is deeper), turns him over and drags him back. She puts him down to do something, he maybe makes some sort of sound, she panics and shoots him.
I always believed the gun was the last resort since it could be used as circumstantial evidence if she is caught. That is the reason she got rid it of it in a place no one would ever know about.
Hi denn, welcome to BOC.
If you read the prior comments and coverage here, there are links to Travis’s redacted autopsy and some quite grisly but necessary for analysis images.
As an example, if you are referring to the wounds on the top of Travi’s forehead and scalp regions, they are not stab wounds whatsoever. They are incised wounds- characterized as such by the fact that they are longer than they are deep, among other notations.
B
Word Girl
I appreciate your explanation of the difference about the blood and the technical term. Now I am going to ask a question. Are you able to cough without air?