In the first part of blinkoncrime.com’s exclusive interview with DeDe Spicher, she revealed that after over 3 years of attempting to provide Multnomah County Sheriffs Office as well as Assistant Deputy Attorney Norm Frink with the necessary information they requested to clear her from any suspicion in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Skyline second grader Kyron Horman; she has finally been cleared after passing a polygraph as part of her requirement under an immunity deal that has been sealed with the court. Unofficially cleared, that is.
Spicher and her attorney Chad Stavley, who have since refused all local media requests, would very much like the Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office and current District Attorney Rod Underhill to clear her officially and publicly.
Spicher is adamant that law enforcement never had any reason to question her statements to them from the beginning, has cooperated fully for over three years and recently testified before the grand jury to prove she had nothing to hide. While she would like the public to know that any assertions to the contrary are untrue, and sometimes have been offered maliciously, her desire to speak out about her experience over the last three years is primarily to force investigative resources to review it’s progress- and hopefully adjust in a way to further leads in Kyron’s case.
As was proven not only by her recent polygraph, but also by the verification that no evidence ever existed to support investigator’s theory in the first place, Spicher had no information about anyone’s potential involvement in Kyron’s disappearance, let alone her own.
The continuation of our interview, which provoked some very interesting revelations long felt to be a possibility by many, was confirmed by Ms. Spicher as she says- told to her by Terri Moulton Horman are prompting new possible theories in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Kyron Horman. Two days after Kyron Horman’s eleventh birthday.
Stoy: So, in your estimation then, why do you think that detectives Herron and Kravfe were so sure that you were involved or knew who was.
Spicher: I have thought about this a lot, and I think there were a few reasons. I think because I was advised through a meeting Terri had with a family friend and attorney that she should assume that all of her communication was being monitored by law enforcement and anyone she had contact with. He told her to assume the house was bugged as well as vehicles, etc. I also believe you did an article a while back that pointed out her phone was in Kaine’s name. As this was a day or two after she was served with the restraining order, she was also told that
Stoy (interrupting): You bought a prepaid phone after June 28th and never had one before that? I had read that you or someone else purchased them the day of or the day after Kyron’s disappearance.
Spicher: No. I purchased one prepaid phone, after Terri shared the info from her meeting, in my own name, either June 29th or 30th. I think they were hung up on the fact that I came to her aid with no contact for so long so they just were convinced there had to be.
Stoy: ok, sorry, continue. So you are not saying that LE was suggesting that you were hiding some other number you had and that was how they were alleging that you HAD to have been in contact with Terri or some other person prior to and on June 4th and that escalated your “poi” status in your opinion?
Spicher: They did not say that to me specifically, but what they repeated over and over again, was that Terri and I had to have had some form of communication we were hiding. It never made any sense to me because I knew I only had my cell that I had forever until the end of June, and I knew I had not been in contact with Terri since her 40th birthday party in March. So I would ask- well then I guess that means that you don’t have any contacts you can’t verify from either of us so why am I even in this “interview”?
To my recollection they never shared with me or answered any of my questions in response when something they kept hounding me about seemed absurd and conflicting with their theory.
Stoy: Which was?
Spicher: At first, I think that they really believed I was involved, and at some point I think they were talking more “accessory after the fact” because I got the impression ( although they did not share it with me) that Terri’s cell phone activity that day was nowhere near where I was, and my vehicle never left, nor did I. They would not verify that they located the ceramics/glassware artist [pottery artisan] I told you about and still have not.
Stoy: So in your opinion, you were clearly the linchpin of this case, they [LE] believed you held the key to solving it and/or implicating Terri exclusively at that point, they no longer entertained your involvement per se?
Spicher: I honestly don’t think I could say that I ever believed that they stopped treating me as some sort of suspect. I never felt that way, but yes, absolutely they 100% believe that Terri is responsible and I definitely believed we all had to be interviewed and scrutinized or whatever, but I really thought up until the meeting with Norm Frink that they [LE] would abandon that theory quickly because if they were positive I was the key, and I knew I was not, that would also eliminate Terri, who I did not and do not believe, but have no proof, was involved or knew anything.
Stoy: Right, so if you had nothing, and they felt you were the only nexus, it had to mean that they had no independent evidence of anything or anyone else so they would start in another direction?
Spicher: Right, but every interaction I had with them following and including the request to participate in the sting against her, made me believe they never did. To get back to the why question you asked me- my final thought on that is that they kept pointing out that I was the person to tell everyone not to speak to them without attorneys in the beginning. I would ask like who do you mean, because that would have been my opinion across the board for any situation, but it was definitely based on what was getting out about how they were going about this. I was scared and it turned out it was good reason. I also would point out to them that I did not think that was or should be the basis for suspicion because if it was, it seemed to me that I was told that several staff members at Skyline had hired counsel, and Kaine was the FIRST to have one between he and Terri and I had told her at least a week or so before that she should.
Stoy: Why do you think she did not immediately take your friendly advice? Your Dad was LE, and I presume she knew that. People can say what they want, but I know many members of law enforcement in different jurisdictions and agencies. I have worked with them or contributed analysis to cases with them privately [I cannot and would not ever include that in anything I choose to write on] and I can tell you that I do not know one of them that if they were the focus of a criminal probe or internal investigation they absolutely do not agree to an interview without a representative. In fact, Herron is or was the President of Mulnomah County Police Union or was, if I recall correctly. So to that end, I find that a pretty hypocritical reason for suspicion of anyone.
Spicher: (laughs) Interesting. I am not sure that I knew that. The reason Terri didn’t get an atty before the RO was because she was told by LE that if she did, she wouldn’t be privvy to any of their investigative discoveries, she would be out of the loop in finding Kyron.
Stoy: Have you had a desire or opportunity to review any sort of past events regarding the MCSO, I guess I should add, that involve anyone in this case or investigation you have had contact with?
Spicher: No, do you mean like any other detectives or that sort of thing?
Stoy: Have you ever met with or been interviewed with any other agencies or detectives?
Spicher: I believe I either met or just said hello to the guy you mentioned in that recent article of yours while he was at the house. Both Kaine and Terri were there at the time as well.
Stoy: Bobby O’Donnell?
Spicher: That’s it, yes, him. Why did you ask me if I am aware of any sort of events- should I be?
Stoy: Well, I think that tangentially if I were you I would be considering just about everything as it related to what you have been through, and I am aware of some what I will refer to as “stuff” but what I don’t want to do prior to the completion of our interview process is temper any of your responses with anything I know peripherally if that’s ok with you. If you wish, once I publish the continuation which will have that sort of information, I would invite you to comment on it for the record if you choose- are you ok with that?
Spicher: yes, that’s fine and probably a good idea.
Stoy: back briefly to the “sting request against Terri- On that issue- the request they extended to you outside the presence of your attorney and that they asked you not to tell Chad, as you think back , considering you have had no communication with Horman for over three years did you believe they thought it would work? What did your attorney say when you told him?
Spicher: I can’t and won’t address any conversations I have had with my attorney, but to answer your question as to my opinion, I really don’t know for sure, I knew that I did not, and thought it was really, really odd- that was my first reaction. After more thought, and other conversations, I don’t see how they thought it would work, or why they were still seemingly convinced after I had just passed the poly, etc, Terri was still their suspect and responsible. What is your opinion on it?
Stoy: I think I may reserve my thoughts on that for my piece. Again, not wanting to temper your opinions as we move along here and I think that could happen if I did. Is that ok with you?
Spicher: Sure, thank you.
Stoy: I would like to move on to another subject for discussion. I would just like to confirm for the record that I have never prior to this interview, asked you any questions about your potential knowledge of steroid use by yourself, or by Terri or Kaine Horman. Is that correct?
Spicher: Correct, ok.
Stoy: Did they ask you this?
Spicher: Who is they? You got a lot of pronouns flying around (laughs).
Stoy: Fair point, you’re right. The good news is, as English, or should I say proper English is my second language (laughs) I use an copy editor. Allow me to rephrase please. Did anyone in law enforcement at any time ask you about steroids or other illegal injectable supplements sometimes used in weight training or body building in your interviews in this case?
Spicher: Your question was did they [le] ask me anything about steroids or anything injectable ever?
Stoy: (laughs) now who’s throwing around the pronouns?
Spicher: (laughs) touche’ . I was asked about it very vaguely in the beginning, I told them I had never used them, that I did not believe Terri ever did because she and I had similar views against using them and while we were on different supplement regimens when I was training for a marathon in 2008 I still remembered her to be knowledgeable about legal and effective nutritional supplements. I had no reason to believe she had ever used any kind of steroids. I can’t say conclusively she never did but it would shock me.
Stoy: Why shock you?
Spicher: Because a few years back I recall Terri telling me that Kaine was what she referred to as “juicing” and that his behavior had become very aggressive and well, impatient or overeactive with the kids and she had discussed it with him and he ignored her.
Stoy: So for the record, when you say juicing you are referring to illegal steroids, not my Omega specials I make, correct? That was the only question they ever asked you and did not ask any follow up questions like how long ago, etc, etc. And so would you characterize the way law enforcement asked that question and their reaction to your response as disinterested, or having nothing to do with the case?
Spicher: I was never asked about Kaine’s use of steroids by either detectives or the grand jury. But yes, that is what she told me. I actually had forgotten all about it until she refreshed my recollection when I stayed there with her. To the best of my memory I was asked just what I said, I answered as I just said and was never asked any follow up question nor was it mentioned again to me by law enforcement . I don’t think I ever really understood what they did or did not think in terms of my information was important to the case, but yes, they were disinterested from my perspective as to it was the only time I was ever asked about it over the course of three and a half years and so my assumption is they still are. But that is my assumption.
Stoy: Understood, you are referring to the time you stayed at the Horman home late June 2010 through early July 2010 following Kaine’s service of the restraining order and her exclusive use of the home? Spicher: I am not sure about the exclusive use part, I didn’t really know anything about how that sort of thing worked and I think for some reason I want to say Terri was not allowed to show anyone.
Stoy: Ok. Tell me everything you know about that. But, I would like you to see if you can provide me your recollection from what you were told about steroid use PRIOR to your conversations about it that refreshed your memory. By the way, who else knows about this, if you know.
Spicher: Terri’s attorney Stephen Houze.
Stoy: How would you know that?
Spicher: Because I helped her load them up, what appeared to me to be syringes in a box and deliver it to her attorney’s office, she said, at his request. She also located some cancelled checks for what she said was Kaine’s payment for steroids. I don’t remember who they were made out to but it was not to cash.
Stoy: ok, understood, we will get back to that. I want to try and focus on what she told you those “few years back.” Do you recall what year, even ballpark.
Spicher: I want to say, but can’t be sure, it was after her competition in 2005, and I am tempted to say it was around the time they got married or shortly thereafter- I am just not going to be much help in remembering this if you are asking me to extract what I remembered from then on my own.
Stoy: Nope, that’s what I am asking, your fine, I don’t want to lead you but let me ask you a few things that may help. Do you remember where you were during the conversation.
Spicher: I remember it was either the one and only time I ever had lunch with Terri, or it was during a time she called my cell, Terri had a lot of drama, and so I was in a Home & Garden Show class and I recall I was saying things out loud to let he know I was not free to talk really or respond as she was talking, so I was saying things like… I don’t know, we should probably touch base on that when I am done here, or sounds good that we chat on it later.
Stoy: The brush up the other party is not getting, like that?
Spicher: Yes, she was not getting it and so I was kind of 50% paying attention. It was either during that call or at the lunch. Other than that, I am not remembering the timing so well.
Stoy: But you would say a few years before Kyron went missing so based on that 2007 or 2008? Do you remember if they were married at the time?
Spicher: Again, we were friends for a good number of years but not close friends, I almost felt like if she was calling me or talking to me about it she had no other option at the time.
Stoy: Got it. What did she say
Spicher: She said that Kaine had been aggressive with her and impatient with the children and she attributed that to his “juicing”. She confronted him and she felt he did not listen to her. She told me that she then called a detective and turned in Kaine’s seller. The member at the gym, I used to know the name but I really can’t recall because I was in the early morning crowd and this guy was more afternoon, I presume when they were there or they saw him. I had stopped going to the same gym as them ater the first year or two I met them there.
Stoy: So she called a detective to turn in the seller Kaine was buying steroids from? Wasn’t she concerned about the fact that buying them is also illegal and that Kaine could face charges?
SPicher: She told me that she contacted a detective and said she would be willing to turn over information about someone selling steroids but only if she could do so anonymously and without saying who was buying them, etc.
Stoy: So it was your understanding that she was trying to work out a scenario that would stop Kaine’s use without him ever knowing it was her by turning in that person? Sort of like… she gets approval to remain anonymous, she gives the tip and then one day comes home and says… “Hey honey, guess what I heard at the gym.. you better stop that or you could be arrested for it, etc?
Spicher: Yes, something like that. Except and again, we have discussed it at one or both these occasions, but that did not work out. The detective called her again directly and she was upset that there was further contact. From what I recall, I think that was the tone of what she was telling me.
Stoy: Understood, so you are thinking that it may have been why she was sort of wired about it and not hearing you try to go about your day, but insisting and venting like she was upset by it.
Spicher: Yes, I think so.
Stoy: Do you think she could have called you because your Dad was law enforcement and she might need that sort of advice. I don’t think so because she did not ask for any. So then what? Did Kaine find out?
Spicher: I just remember there was some sort of investigation of the guy, and I really don’t know if Kaine ever found out about it or knows to this day. If the seller or anyone was arrested or anything else at the time I do not remember, that was how much I paid attention to it then until Terri reminded me of it.
Stoy: Ok. Now, why is it that Terri was discussing it with you when you were staying at the house with her in your view?
Spicher: Because after the restraining order was served and I guess she realized where Kaine was headed, it was sort of like- if he was going to badmouth her, in her estimation it was false, but anyway, that Kaine had skeletons in his own closet sort of thing. She told her lawyer [Houze] and she said he instructed her to bring the syringes and the cancelled checks to his office. We did.
Stoy: So was Terri saying that Kaine was using steroids behind her back and she found this or that she knew and was having sort of the same reaction as last time, or she just learned once he was out of the home or what? Was she suggesting this to you like it had something to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: I got the impression she did not know, or at least did not know when the last time he was using them was, but it gets fuzzy for me there because it is my belief up until the time the RO was served, in my opinion she would have tried to protect Kaine from le finding out so I don’t know if she told le, but it would surprise me. Terri was always very family centric. She would protect her family unit, and that is why she did the turning in thing, this would seem the same to me until he made those murder for hire allegations.
Stoy: So did you get the impression from her that she thought that her allegation of Kaine’s steroid use had anything to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: No, not at all.
Stoy: Nothing like, maybe this happened as some sort of retribution against her for turning someone in previously or against Kaine if they thought he was involved because after all she says he was the one buying it back then?
Spicher: No, she told me she had no idea who was responsible for Kyron’s disappearance or why, and the only possibility she came up with after the fact because of his past behavior and the fact that he showed up at her door demanding $10,000 she had no idea what he was talking about, that it was the landscaper. He was the only person acting like a criminal at the time.
Stoy: Have you ever seen a text of hers involving the custody situation after the fact, after the Rudy Sanchez Estrada “sting” and she called police twice that day/evening that ended with “mark 1 for the FBI.”
Spicher: I may have, if I did I don’t remember it specifically.
Stoy: She specifically said the FBI, who has only ever assisted in this case, and who has no jurisdictional presence in Kyron’s case, I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on that.
Spicher: No, I don’t have any idea what she meant.
Is it possible that illegal steroid use or sales and the recent public outing there was an ongoing Federal Investigation with the emphasis on police and gym members that included persons familiar to the Horman’s contributed to the circumstances involving the disappearance of Kyron Horman?
Has it been excluded by having more law enforcement investigating themselves?
Roid Rumors and Boys In Blue.. Coincidence Or Clue?
It is no secret that Oregon has seen it’s share of corruption allegations in recent years. The very public and very disturbing account of it’s Governor Neil Goldschmidt’s involvement with a 14 year old girl earned Willamette Week’s Nigel Jaquiss a Pulitzer in 2005 for breaking the story a year earlier. As a strong argument for the trickle down effect, Goldschmidt’s former driver Bernie Giusto- who became the Multnomah County Sheriff following the debacle, was forced to resign his position when a State agency declared they would be removing his police certifications due to his lack of “moral fitness” outlined in the now infamous Giusto Report. A former Sheriff, Bob Skipper, was then appointed to take his place, but after two attempts could not pass the required certifications. The current Multnomah Sheriff Dan Staton, who has since won an election, was appointed in his place. Several current MCSO officers assigned to Kyron’s case were interviewed for the Giusto report.
In fact, Bobby O’Donnell was the lead investigator in Kyron’s case for the first 18 months who according to his own words in his interview was the unfortunate subject of an allegation involving his own very messy divorce.
MCSO Sgt Brett Ritchie stated in a police interview that O’Donnell was seen waving a gun and threatening his life [Ritchie] after he began dating O’Donnell’s ex wife. Laura O’Donnell was granted a restraining order against him that later became an agreement between the couple.
The lead investigator in the case of a missing child openly threatened a ranking officer and that incident was never investigated outside of Ritchie being told to stay away from O’Donnell. O’Donnell’s deposition and his motion to quash it are the subject of a hearing scheduled for Friday September 13, 2013.
There is no question the agency tasked with the investigation into the disappearance of Kyron Horman has had several and more recent embarrassing entanglements.
In another investigative piece by the Willamette Week, it exposes the egregious overtime paychecks that members of the prosecutors and investigators assigned to Kyron’s case have received during the early months following Kyron’s disappearance.
It is unclear how Multnomah County ever had jurisdiction in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance. According to the Skyline School’s filed safety and response plan, the Portland Police Bureau is the agency of record.
Multnomah County’s former woes might have paled a bit in comparison if only by the difference a year makes to public memory, to that of their fellow neighboring officers in Canby, located in Clackamas County.
After several investigations into the selling and possible use of anabolic steroids a Canby Police officer, which were repeatedly stalled due to his caption tipping other’s off in the alleged ring , Officer Jason Deason was arrested along with Canby Landscape Supply Owner William Traverso, Brian Casey Paul Jackson were arrested. The investigation was believed to be ongoing and Traverso, Deason and Jackson all cut deals for quick prison stints that shocked fellow officers and the public alike. The specifics of which were sealed by the court. It is now known that the Federal Bureau of Investigation continued to require the ongoing cooperation of it’s criminals turned informants to pursue federal indictments against possible targets in law enforcement and members of the bodybuilding set- to include acquaintances of Kaine and Terri Horman.
Presuming the confirmed allegations are true- is it possible that ‘a few years back’ Terri Horman unwittingly set off a state turned Federal investigation into the buying, using and selling of human growth hormone and anabolic steroids? How could this be connected, if it is, to the timing of Kyron’s disappearance even if she had?
“… Jackson, through a plea deal on state charges in 2009 where he admitted to selling anabolic steroids to Canby police officers in uniform, had been working with the FBI on an ongoing investigation when they confronted him with the knowledge that he was found deceptive on a polygraph designed to indicate if Jackson’s participation was far more extensive then he originally admitted to…”
“…Jackson, with his attorney, began cooperating with federal authorities shortly after his arrest. He identified his source for steroids as Vancouver resident Rainbow “Bo” Wild Keepers, 39, a competitive bodybuilder and photographer. Agents ran Keepers’ name in federal databases and discovered that an Arizona man had tipped off the Drug Enforcement Administration years ago that Keepers was his source of steroids. Keepers was never charged…”
On June 3rd, 2010, approximately 24 hours before Kyron Horman’s disappearance, Jackson was arrested on a Federal warrant following a sealed indictment issued the day before after failing a polygraph and refusing to help the FBI further.
Between June 2, 2005 and May 2008, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials B.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
It has since been revealed that the initials BW stand for Bradley Worden. Worden owns a few businesses, all relating to wholesale gym equipment or nutritional products. Worden has never been charged.
Between June 2006 and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials N.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
The identity of the person with initials NW is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and December 2007,: in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule illcontrolled substances, to a person with the initials G.P., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and
841(b)( 1)(E).
The identity of the person with the initials G.P is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule III controlled substances, to a person with the initials S.B., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and 84l(b)(1)(E).
The initials S.B. refer to Steve Beaudoin, a former work associate of Jackson’s and current Oregon State safety officer.
According to assistant U.S. Attorney Jane Shoemaker, Jackson sold Beaudoin at least 50 pills of the steroid Winstrol, an injectable steroid called Deca Durabolin, Sustanon and, in June 2007, 100 pills of Anavar on one to two occasions. Shoemaker also said Jackson sold Beaudoin $500 worth of human growth hormone. Investigators discovered the sales through witness interviews and Jackson’s computer records, Shoemaker said.
From Buff To Puff
In contrast to Jackson, although Traverso also sold to Deason and other members of law enforcement, William ‘Jake’ Traverso, a former competitive bodybuilder and “Mr. Oregon” cooperated extensively with the FBI by identifying other law enforcement officers he sold steroids to, and got a lenient sentence of 15 days in jail, 30 days home detention and 24 months probation, with no federal charges.
In a letter submitted to a Clackamas County judge Monday, FBI Special Agent Christopher Frazier said that Traverso has discussed his drug distribution activities in detail. “The public safety employees identified by Traverso included law enforcement officers, corrections officers, fire and rescue personnel and university public safety officers,” Frazier wrote, “Several spin-off FBI public corruption investigations were initiated as a result of these allegations, and are ongoing.”
Traverso, Deason and Jackson were cooperating with the Feds simultaneously, and in a very public way. Although Deason had been similarly employed by the Canby Police under Chief Greg Kroeplin, at least one of the raids on Traverso- Deason’s client, was by Deason’s Canby fellow officer James Murphy.
John Hingson, Traverso’s attorney and past commentator on the Horman case, sparred with then ADA Norm Frink as well. Hingson unearthed the report that included Murphy had been demoted following Deason’s arrest and his credibility was called into question. Murphy worked the graveyard shift with Deason. The report also revealed that both Deason and Officer James Murphy, who was one of the few to initiate an investigation into Deason’s steroid abuse, were put at risk when they were scheduled to work side by side as the only two officers on that shift.
“…Hingson obtained a 2009 report written by private detectives the City of Canby had hired to investigate the steroid scandal. Among their findings: Murphy had been demoted from detective to officer for alleged dishonesty…”
Chief GregKroeplin resigned prior to release of a scorching memo outlining the city’s findings they had outsourced properly to two retired Oregon detectives, which would have resulted in his termination.
Murphy, still employed by Canby Police, is apparently looking to renew the agencies stint for bad press.
On October 13, 2011, six months after former Willamette Week journalist James Pitkin featured his Lord of The Flies article outlining Murphy’s internal investigation led to his demotion for dishonestly, he arrested a freelance sports reporter while taking pictures of him exiting the Canby Police Headquarters on duty and entering his personal vehicle.
Andrew Millbrooke filed a Federal lawsuit in 2012 against The City of Canby, Officer James Murphy and his captain Bret Smith for excessive force and wrongful arrest which took place after Murphy used his cruiser to follow Millbrooke who was on foot. In a police report from another officer in the case, Millbrooke tells him he is a freelance journalist trying to expose corruption and drug use by Officer Murphy. The suit is pending. A review of the declarations by both Mr. Smith and Mr. Murphy do not include the details of the investigative report commissioned by The City Of Canby discussing Mr. Murphy’s prior demotion. Mr. Murphy also had a recent court decision regarding improper procedure [See Bonneau].
With pending motions to release the employment files of some Canby police officers to include Murphy, the charges against Traverso were dismissed this past May due the state delaying the case over 23 months.
Traverso, Deason and Jackson are all currently on probation. Traverso is awaiting trial on recent charges involving watermelon theft.
As the Federal Bureau of Investigation is listed as an investigative partner to MCSO in the Kyron Horman investigation, it is their policy not to release files where they are not the lead agency of record or during an ongoing criminal investigation .
Requests for comment from Kaine Horman through his attorney Brett Engel regarding the allegations that he has either purchased or sold illegal steroids have not been returned at the time of this publication.
However, in an article published to include a quote from Kaine Horman it seems that Kaine confirms Ms. Spicher’s assertion that Terri Horman did not use illegal steroids, but rather nutritional supplements and had moved past those very quickly after her bodybuilding competition.
“…Kaine said he noticed a sharp shift in her behavior, saying she became self-centered and short-tempered.
“She’s not eating a lot of food, she’s exercising twice a day, she’s up at 4 o’clock in the morning, she’s not sleeping at night so we get just general irritable behavior towards everyone around her,” he said.
He said she consumed over-the-counter stimulants, such as fat burners, in high doses. In four months between January and April, she shed 62 pounds, dropping from 185 to 123 pounds, he said.
At the end of April, with her muscles bulked up and skin glistening with a bronze tan, she competed in the Emerald Cup bodybuilding competition in Bellevue, Wash…”
S.Christina Stoy, Editor In Chief, www.blinkoncrime.com was able to independently confirm Ms. Spicher’s account of alleged steroid use and ensuing investigation of a gym member as told to her by Terri Horman.
The source, an associate of Terri Horman, DeDe Spicher and Kaine Horman who declined to be identified, went on to say that at the time it was “… really common knowledge who was using steroids and who was selling them…” “… was not aware previously that Terri Horman claimed to have instigated contact with law enforcement to turn in the seller…” The source declined to identify the seller and could not say for certain if he was charged and likely would not away- given the request not to disclose the source’s name on the record.
Reached for comment, Terri Moulton Horman Attorney Stephen Houze declined to comment based on his policy of not speaking publicly when a client has pending legal matters.
A request for comment to Mr. Bunch, Terri Horman’s divorce attorney has not been returned by the time of this publication.
More Questions Than Answers..
Following several hours of interviews with DeDe Spicher, the woman who was not a close friend to Terri Horman but ultimately was the closest to her in the early days of the investigation- are we left with more questions than answers about what could have happened to the little boy whose 11th birthday was 2 days ago?
Spicher concedes that anything she discussed as told to her by Terri Horman in some minor instances may only be verifiable by Horman herself- and she is not talking… Yet.
She also points out that ultimately everything she told me she shared with investigators as far as “truthfulness” was confirmed by a polygraph – to include the question “Was she withholding any information from investigators?”
She was not.
Although limited, Spicher’s accounts in many instances confirm sparse information heard early on from Terri herself. Not the least of which was that although widely criticized for not speaking out publicly, she was told by investigators not to under any circumstances- and when she broached the possibility of retaining counsel was told that she would then be cut off from any information as to the investigation process to find Kyron Horman.
Through Spicher, Horman also confirmed that out of concern for Horman’s “spacieness” which she defined by walking into a room and staring off, not remembering, etc, Terri Horman called his pediatrition Thursday June 3rd and made an appointment for Friday June 11th. His last day of school. Horman also told Spicher that Kyron had wondered off or got lost while in his teacher Ms. Porter’s care once before when following a fellow student out of class.
Initially, prior to learning Kyron had been marked absent not very long after she left the building, that was Horman’s first thought. Those hopes grew into panic with that revelation that he had been missing for hours.
Spicher says Terri was adamant that she never had a sexual relationship with the now infamous landscaper Rudy Sanchez Estrada Spicher agrees that her friend had the propensity to be flirtatious but she never knew her to be sexually promiscuous. Outside of the fact that she says at Kaine’s request to occasionally include an additional female in the bedroom, to which Spicher declined, she was not aware that the Horman’s had a swinger lifestyle.
To her knowledge, there were other women that were asked to participate in a threesome with the couple that did not say no some years ago, but had no current knowledge and she herself was never involved with Horman sexually.
In her take, the addition of a 3rd female was an expression of control on Kaine’s part in the relationship.
Terri explained the landscapers “sexual accosting” , previously reported exclusively by www.blinkoncrime this way:
“… She said she had Kitty on her hip and he came up behind her and was kissing her neck and put his arm around her and when she verbally resisted with concern that Kitty was in her arms he sort of grabbed her and she spun around and broke free…”
Spicher adds that on more than one occasion she tried to bring that up during meetings with DA Norm Frink and investigators. One one occasion, as suggested by her Father, a former Klamath County Marine Officer, at their own expense The Klamath County Sheriff and his first lieutenant had agreed to meet with Frink, Spicher and her father on DeDe’s behalf to sort of provide character backgrounds and family history he felt would be helpful in clearing her.
“… This came up in the first interview I had with Mr Frink and I told him she had made that call. Later in the interview when he was trying to push more of my buttons, he tells me that call never happened (implying Terri had lied to me). I told him okay, that’s what you’re telling me, but I recall it differently (implying he was lying to me right then). He got very angry about that and insisted it was “fact”. I said okay, whatever. Much later, like one of the last times I met with Mr Frink, the Klamath County Sheriff and his 1st Lieutenant flew up on their own dime to meet with Mr Frink & Keith Krafve to see if they could help by offering their opinion of my character, and that it didn’t seem unusual to them at all that I would go help Terri, that it is very consistent with how my family has always been. At that meeting, I retold the story of Rudy sexually accosting Terri (her words), but said I wasn’t sure about the 911 call. That totally infuriated Mr Frink. I told him I was trying to believe him and simply not certain about what I could remember on that point.
The DAs office behaved very strangely toward the Klamath Co Sheriff and his Lt. They tried everything they could to keep us separated and even insisted that they (the DAs office) drive them back to the airport, despite the fine fact that we (Dad & I) had picked them up and brought them in, and would definitely be seeing them again in the near future. It was just weird, to all of us…”
I asked DeDe if she used the term called 911 in every exchange. She had. I asked her if she got the impression that the reason Frink was so sure it never happened was because there was no 911 call on the record about it – could it be that maybe she reached out to that former law enforcement person she contacted on the steroid issue and it was actually a dispatch call versus a trackable 911 call issue.
Spicher says she got the impression that Frink was suggesting that the “accosting” as described by her friend did not happen, but could not be sure except to say that Frink seemed to become irate when she brought it up on every occasion. Spicher felt Sanchez Estrada was the only person behaving like a criminal and that supported the accounts she was given.
I asked DeDe if Terri mentioned ever paying Sanchez Estrada for work at the Horman home. She said she did not recall Terri ever saying anything other than she had no idea what he was talking about when he came to the door and asked for $10,000 so she slammed the door in his face and called 911.
Stoy: So did she think it was some sort of extortion attempt now that she had mentioned him to investigators and they told her that they had interviewed him?
Spicher: She thought that he was dangerous from her past experience.
Stoy: Did you think it was odd that with a brand new John Deere tractor parked outside that TH was hiring a landscaper? I was able to confirm through other sources that he cleared some blackberry or blueberry bushes similar to Ms. Von Klevelen, and the tractor does not have a UCC lien on it, meaning it was not financed.
Spicher: No, it wasn’t. Kaine bought it. It was Terri’s job to manage the inside of the house as well as the entire property. I knew that when Kaine would travel he would come up with this project lists for her to complete by the time he got home. I mean, like cleaning the gutters, cutting the grass, washing all the windows, that sort of thing. To the best of my recollection Terri and Kaine did not have bank accounts together- he controlled everything he made.
Stoy: With a baby, 7 year old and teenager and hubby out of town? How was she managing that? No wonder he was suggesting that she was pouring through money like water or something like that, she was probably hiring help. I am not even sure I think a woman by herself at that property with a baby should be on the roof by herself anyway.
Spicher: No, Terri had to pay any support money or whatever to the household expenses and I have surmised Kaine gave her some sort of allowance which she probably blew through pretty quickly on frivolous things like food and clothes for her children. I have never known Terri to be frivolous with money. I know of at least two times when the projects she was supposed to accomplish were impossible for her to manage. One was the windows so I believe she hired someone that time and as I recall her parents paid for that. I believe the other was the landscaper.
Stoy: Is it a fair question for me to ask how you feel about Kaine, from your tone I am sensing you are not a fan.
Spicher: I have tremendous compassion for Kaine- he lost his child- what can one even say about that? But no, he is not someone I would want to be friends with today and I was cordial to him whenever I was around him but he was very controlling and was pretty mean to Terri about her weight from Kitty, things like that- I am not going to have anything in common with that.
Stoy: Did Terri ever mention anything about conflicts with Desiree Young, whether they were between her and she or Kaine and Desiree?
Spicher: Not that I recall, but I also never heard her speak of Desiree negatively at any time previously or when I stayed with her [Terri].
Stoy: That is saying a lot because right after the sting Ms. Young was pretty accusatory pretty quickly- and I do note that was based on information from law enforcement. Similar to some of the things both she and Kaine said publicly about you. Are you angry about that?
Spicher: O my no. That poor woman is going through hell and acted on information that I was told, lie or not, was given to her and Kaine. I have nothing but compassion for her and I wish I could shoulder some of her pain because I can.. I have nothing but compassion for all of Kyron’s parents and any anger I have over how I was treated, what I went through would never be directed at them. I really pray that Kyron will be found, I choose to put my energy into hope for that.
Pending Matters
Through Attorney Bunch, Terri Horman makes the claim that both law enforcement and Kaine Horman have been perpetrating the dissemination of inaccurate information involving the circumstances of Kyron Horman’s disappearance.
In a recent filing, set for hearing this Friday, Bunch pens a scathing reply to Deputy O’Donnell’s motion to quash, and accuses the county of improper ex parte communication.
Early this afternoon, a source within the Multnomah County Courthouse speaking on the condition of anonymity has confirmed that on behalf of Multnomah County, a motion has been filed to limit certain documents or discoverable information related to Mr. Horman and Bobby O’Donnell of the MCSO.
A hearing is scheduled before Judge Kantor for this Friday September 13, 2013
Jacqueline Beaufort, Ellie Sanders – research and contributing editors to this article.
Still think K.Boy has been schooled by Houze, has K’s best interest in mind.
Not sure this was a perp. depo, but if it was hope kantor rules soon to re-depo hi
Agree, that either Kaine was ill-prepared for the subtleties of Houze and/or is unable to
pick up on why the turn of questioning that in the end did him in. He’s known for putting
foot into mouth. How quickly he adjusted to the words “Don’t guess” suggests to me
that he compartmentalizes to preserve emotional balance. Very verbal, smart, but
unable to really communicate. Asp….maybe. Heard somewhere that Kyron was diagnosed with it
and IF that is the case, that would explaine the behavioral system and the end of school appt.
@Blink…listened to your podcast. I’m sure you have read the last two days of audit report and then
Staton’s report to the Commissioners. *waving my hand…pick ME! to be on a citizen board*
Otherwise…i’ll start fundraising for a contender next year.
@sam h, you are priceless
@Grass, take your theory a step higher than Kaine, to his
Intel interfaces. (btw does their Calif hdqtrs have an
employee gym onsite?)
Correction, of sorts, above. K-boy meaning Kantor. But Kaine…that, too. Dont’ think he has the ability to analyze why he was schooled by Houze, but with so very little, H. manged to discover a lot.
Steroids or not there is some people who have been Terri haters for over 3 years almost daily
To me this seems really unusual
And they are so into it
I had a long black coat I liked a few years back I wonder did people think I was a witch after reading the comments about Terri’s coat LOL
Anyway someone said we don’t. Use the word mugged that much I hear it on TV mostly
And Kaine’s depo made no sense. To me he can’t seem to focus
And Rudy seems to want us to believe Kaine was going pay for his
own mugging with a computer and 10 thousand
That is all I see LOL
I admit I’m up pretty late while pondering so correct me if I am wrong (I searched for a link and couldn’t find one.) wasn’t there a report of Kyron telling someone (maybe at school?) that his Mom was dead?
If this is accurate, I’m curious as to when he said it and who he was possibly influenced by prior to saying it.
Back to reading.
my aha moment. Imo Kaine’s answers are best explained
if he has placed another woman in his home
whom Kiara calls mother, and he does not want to go into that.
I agree it is worthy territory, but I do not personally believe if that were true, he would not have been cross examined as to the point. LE did not tell him to have someone else call his baby Mommy, there is only so much mileage.
B
Kate: So all of the sudden you know that there’s another woman. You’re eight months pregnant.
DESIREE YOUNG: Yeah.
KATE SNOW: Must have been a low point in your life.
DESIREE YOUNG: Yeah. It was pretty hard to handle. I cried solid for two months and didn’t leave the bedroom because I didn’t understand why she somehow equated to something that was better than me and my son.
Kaine, however, insists that he and Desiree had broken up before he stated seeing Terri, agreeing to live separate lives under the same roof just until their baby came along. In any event, Kaine and Desiree eventually divorced. At first Desiree moved into a new place near Kaine’s home in Portland. Little Kyron lived with her for the first two years of his life. But Desiree was sick with severe kidney problems.
DESIREE YOUNG: I had gotten to the point where I was in the hospital usually
three or four times throughout the year.
KATE SNOW: Your kidneys were failing?
DESIREE YOUNG: Yeah. I was so sick that I was passing out at times.
Desiree says she went to Canada for treatment and gave Kaine temporary custody of Kyron. When she got back, still recovering and drowning in medical bills, they decided together that Kyron would be best off staying with his dad. She admits that, despite the anguish Terri had caused her in he past, she now thought Kaine and Terri could give Kyron a good life.
DESIREE YOUNG: I didn’t see anything that I was unhappy with. I didn’t think that my child was unhappy.
But in hindsight, she regrets the decision.
Desire….
1.”couldn’t see how TERRI “equated” to something better than her and cried for 2 months.”
2.” admits that despite the anguish TERRI had caused her..”
What about Kaine? Did Terri even know Desiree existed when she first met him? Did she know she was eight months pregnant? Terri caused her the anquish? Nothing about how Kaine caused her anquish?
Is this what the stalk and chalking is really all about? The “anti” pages supported by DY who blamed tmh rather than Kaine for her failing marriage?
T. Ruth says:
December 12, 2013 at 11:53 am
@vw says:
December 12, 2013 at 12:49 am
Houze has him in between a rock and hard place, he can’t say it was his idea and intention to separate child from mother as he knows that is just plain wrong and not in the child’s best interest which he learned from his parenting class, that he took after divorcing Desiree Young. (Remember the RO Desiree issued on Kaine, because she was afraid he would take her boys?)
He can’t say LE made him do it, if they did, because that will open up a huge lawsuit against Multnomah County.
Mostly, I love the disclaimer part at the bottom where it says Mr. Horman has the right to change his mind in future depositions. LOL, are you kidding me?
======
Truth….just love the way that sage operates. Has had a few years to contemplate the quiet assault, n’est pas?
As someone who lives 5 miles from Menlo Park I can tell you it’s wonderful, as are it’s neighbors Palo Alto (which the BF has dubbed “shallow Alto”), and to the north San Carlos and Woodside. It’s a beautiful place to live, expensive and pretentious, but beautiful nonetheless.
I guess my question is a legal one. Could a step-mom ever get custody of her step-child, when there are two bio-parents still around and deemed at the very least somewhat okay parents? What would be the circumstances that would ever be allowed?
I don’t know the legal ramifications. I also wonder why, if true, Terri would ever tell anyone that she thought Kaine *COULD* take away her child? Why would Desiree Young, years ago, think that Kaine could do the same thing, apparently, and even more so ,take away her first son Quinn as well, Ky’s half brother?
IDK, but I have a feeling we’re all being duped by someone. I hope someone has the wherewithal to go back to the old NRH divorce documents and see what was going on back then.
===================================================================
If I am to believe anything that came out of the “no she didn’t actually say THAT” RSE deposition, I could buy it that TMH stated she feared her husband would take her daughter from her. I can also believe that DY felt that was a risk as well when she was divorcing KH. Now, with both wives having the same concern, to me, that could suggest: KH holding something over their heads.
the way I see it, we have no idea at all if LE told Kaine a word about Kiara & mother.
First, Engel answered the depo question, nir Kaine, & Engel was not under oath.
Second, Engel wasn’t there. He is reliant on what Kaine told him when Kaine was not under oath.
Wrt “Houze: Has Kiara indicated to you that she believes that her mother is dead?” The phrasing is Houze’s, deliberately chosen, and I am sure he knows exactly Kiara’s situation. He threw a catch 22 question with deliberation imo. My guess it really was an easy answer that Kitty has not been told mother is dead because she is calling and knows someone else as mother. And Kaine couldn’t bring himself to say that. That is my bet.
and http://www.breakthroughparenting.com/PAS.htm
“To them, having total control over their child is a life and death matter. Because they don’t understand how to please other people, any effort to do so always has strings attached. They don’t give; they only know how to take. They don’t play by the rules and are not likely to obey a court order.”
“What makes this problem very complicated is that PAS is often intergenerational in dysfunctional families. Almost always the alienator has people within the family who support the alienation. It might be the mother, father or grandparent who encourage fighting. They are likely to support the parent financially or even provide massive amounts of money to fund litigation. This is further proof to the PAS parent that he or she is justified in what he/she does.”
@Lauren. Congrats. I’d kill to live there, well almost.
I sent my kid traveling alone at Xmas to a Stanford winter residential sports camp
two years (frequent flier mi), hoping she’d chose that area. I still want to know why Houze
asked Kaine the name of a man who MAY be the owner of 3 bars & online complaints wrt Costa
Rica condo. All in good time.
GH says, Characters in the hater crater. SM, who was all offended at the fake anti page and is ‘officially’ running the new and improved hate page is the mother of TWO kids who murdered another child for drugs. It certainly puts in perspective the kind of people that D is associating herself and call themselves Kyron Warriors.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Grasshopper, irt cauldrons: SL, who has had her own legal issues, continually bashes KH and DY and bullies those who don’t share her pov on her various internet pages and OLive. IMO, ALL of these individuals are nothing more than schoolyard bullies at their worst. In addition, imo, trashing an individual and her children does nothing to further this case. Kyron is still missing.
Rose says,
@Grass, take your theory a step higher than Kaine, to his
Intel interfaces. (btw does their Calif hdqtrs have an
employee gym onsite?)
~~~~~~~~~~
I have long speculated Intel involvement, either among employees with tacit knowledge by higher up, or something more formal involving the company. they are in the perfect position to move things around with their daily flights to Calif and I’m sure elsewhere, in fact all over the world. Also Intel would have the influence to harden K’s protective shell. School locations could also be involved to some point since Intel does things at various schools and is considered a Good Friend. At one point I scoured the internet for any way to put this theory forward but not surprisingly found nothing. We also have the entanglement of one particular synagogue social circle. we know this could all mean big money but I can’t find anything to hang my suspicions on. I do agree with people here who say K is not clever enough or powerful enough to manipulate LE to this degree. there has to be more to it. Early on when things began to go so wrong, I thought it has to be drugs or porn. I still think that. We have good reason to believe it’s steroids, no idea if there is a porn element.
I respectfully disagree there is any evidence or wide turn there is corporate espionage here in any capacity.
B
The billboard sign that DY put up has bothered me from day one. Sure, the red highlights add emphasis. Viewed seperately ithe red highlighted words together could be read as a sentence as could the un-highlighted words. This may have already been discussed.
@ Nel Mel. You have given me a lot to think about. It seems to me that TMH reached out to LE about the steroids and that opened a can of worms that KH was a part of with LE. After KY went missing KH’s first directive to Intel employees not to speak of the matter was a CYA move. And it seems that KH’s pointing the finger at TMH goes back to her deceiving him in the first place by outing him to LE (who already knew what he was up to because they were up to it too) and that is the avenue he envisions causes her to be the bad guy.
I do not think either parent stashed him anywhere, because keeping up the charade of that would have to have dimmed by now. I don’t think TMH or KH is guilty in the disappearance, yet I think both of them are culpable to a degree.
As to what he has to hold over his wife(s) in order to get them to believe that he will gain custody of the children I can only offer that mentally abusive spouses can convince their partners that they have the upper hand. My sister who just divorced after 38 years of marriage believed her husband that if she left him he would take their son and she would never see him again. No manner of trying to convince her otherwise by myself or our other sisters worked. She stayed with him knowing full well he had no ability to take care of any other human being, let alone a child.
KH is manipulative and up to his eyeballs in playing the game of “this is mine not yours” (i.e., children, money, cars, property). I’m of the personality that would never, ever, put up with this and it always amazes me that these type people can continue to lure new victims into their lives and their beds.
It is possible that TMH was planning to leave and that is why she tried to get DY to petition for custody, and she sent James away. I don’t think she wanted any of the children to end up with KH and I bet she worries about her daughter all of the time.
NelMel says: (snipped) SZ is LE and grabbing Kyron was step one in getting rid of TMH as a threat to any of them.
______
Yes. LE or Portland Schools staff.
I posted a link showing one of those involved with the roid bust was a gym instructor in one of the Portland area high schools.
The profile of the abductor, IMO only as I’m not trained in these things, could fit someone from LE or security. Rose has suggested someone with tactical training and I agree with that assessment.
RedRose says: (snipped)I understand about LE corruption probably pretty prevalent here in Portland, but for pete’s sake, there have to be at least ONE or TWO honest LEOs around. Turning on their peers is worth it even if they lose their jobs. Who would want to work for a law enforcement agency that corrupt anyway? They should just blow their whistles and then go somewhere and sell cars. or something.
_______
I think there are a few honest officers involved Rose. Countless cases where the good ones will not speak out because of fear.
Someone at that level speaking out is exactly the break this case needs.
I agree with this. That thin blue line is a femoral artery, I don’t care what anyone says.
B
T Ruth asks: I guess my question is a legal one. Could a step-mom ever get custody of her step-child, when there are two bio-parents still around and deemed at the very least somewhat okay parents? What would be the circumstances that would ever be allowed?
____
I know the answer to this… a big fat no, step would not ever get custody over birth parent unless relinquished by birth parent or state took child as a ward and gave custody to step.
Respectfully AS, the answer to a legal question cannot be an opinion. Not unless you are a judge referencing your own, lol. I cited some case law early on regarding both step sibling and non-bio parental cases as it relates to Oregon family court- it is not likely, but in the words of kantor, it is unlike any other case. Regardless, the issue is perception. How is it relative if at all, and based upon what party’s understanding of the law?
Maybe the word mugged has a geographic usage. I don’t think it’s odd. I think of it in terms of someone being held up on the streets by someone with a gun. But I grew up in NY, where maybe it was more prevalent. ? Maybe for RSE it was as well.
RE:
~snip
Malty says:
December 13, 2013 at 1:08 am
Anyway someone said we don’t. Use the word mugged that much I hear it on TV mostly
And Kaine’s depo made no sense. To me he can’t seem to focus
And Rudy seems to want us to believe Kaine was going pay for his
own mugging with a computer and 10 thousand
That is all I see LOL
That was weird, wasn’t it? Wish I could remember where that information came from.
I remember mentally correlating that to Desiree’s remark “Kyron saw it all and was involved” as if he/Ky witnessed heated exchanges between Terri and a potential accomplice or abductor prior to his disappearance.
Going on the question from H. … Did you reach that decision (to not talk to Kiara about her mother’s absence) independently? And his answer, finally, was that he would say No.
So who else encouraged him …. after Engel’s had just refered to answer being difficult because it could involve LE?
Well, maybe new mommy? But don’t think cargopants was making that leap.
Just thinking about all those pressers where Kaine and DY kept justifying world hatred of TMH by
stating….”LE has informed me……”
Now, when push comes to shove in these depos they must be very frustrated that they are being intensly questioned and the prhase is completely off the table but the elephant in the room.
“They” if and when DY gets finally depoed after she and TY were spared by the DA’s office…”arrests are happening any day now — anti’s get yer guns, it will be in August”
Wish I could get complete depos. I’m sure we will learn more Monday.
This is a true thing and can involve personality disorder/s on behalf of the withholding parent. I agree totally with why PAS has developed and the effects on the child as written in the article. I’ve seen this in action and it is something to behold.
Still can’t believe the depths to which people will go, even eternally harming children, to ‘get back’ or ‘destroy’ the other parent.
I do not know that this applies to Kaine given the circumstances of summer 2010 and that Kyron clearly loved Desiree, though.
Blink, given all that has transpired in the years since Kyron has gone missing, do you still feel as though this is a sexually motivated crime?
My mind just can’t wrap around steroids having anything more to do with this than perhaps being a way to “let the vampire in.” I’ve seen the seedy underbelly of drug use and abuse, and I have to say that steroids are a different beast entirely. It’s not like heroin or meth use, where people are like animals after their next fix. It’s more of a narcissist drug, if that makes sense. Heroin and meth users don’t care, the steroid users I’ve known DO care, that’s why they do it. It just doesn’t mesh with me in this. I could be wrong, but I feel it’s not necessarily an explanation as to “why Kyron?” I mean, maybe it’s a part of the cover up, but I don’t think it was an impetus to his being taken. All just MHO
@cd & nel mel. My guess is both wives were cautioned
about the custody possibilities
because they knew someone in his prior
generations did the same, successfully. The old adage
like father (or mother), like son.
I agree with your position about control of a child by a parent that has a problem of ownership. That can be expanded to all members of such a person’s family. Such as brothers, sisters and any children they may have. I believe that is a problem that is associated with being a sociopath.
-snip
arental alienation can also be a causal factor in self-injuring behaviour in children, including eating disorders. Alienated children are at a high risk of drug and alcohol abuse, they may suffer from mood disorders, have low self esteem, they may be depressed, or anxious or trying to cope with persistent panic attacks and some alienated children have been misdiagnosed as asthmatic.
-snip
Today, mental health professionals already recognize parental alienation as a serious form of child abuse and science has unraveled how a parent’s negative influence can inculcate a child with parental alienation syndrome.
This article is a real eye opener. Not only has Kaine caused psychological harm to Kiara but he has done so with the assistance of a supposed family court judge. I thought Family court judges were supposed to know something about children’s welfare. I don’t know how judge K sleeps at night.
Thank you so much, Rose, and others including Blink who are helping to shine a light on the terrible damage that is done to children when parental alienation causes them to reject one of their parents which in essence causes them to reject half of themselves!
@Albalass- That “Goodbye Kitty” fb page is disgusting and imo is threatening. Poster CarolNLarry commented on one of the pictures “Be safe, Kitty” and I want to know WTH that is supposed to mean. Did you notice the page was founded on 6/4/10? Would love to know if that’s the date the page was created or if the creator was able to pick the date. Whoever did this is seriously f’ed up
———-
Albalass says:
December 8, 2013 at 12:03 pm
@Blink. I’m not sure if you want to post this up or not – But i wanted to draw your attention to it.
Is that Kiara in one of the pics half way down? Is this not illegal?
@Rose says:
December 13, 2013 at 9:36 am
“My guess it really was an easy answer that Kitty has not been told mother is dead because she is calling and knows someone else as mother.”
———-
This has weighed heavily on my heart all day. I believe you are correct. I would like to know if the replacement also has a son. I’ve never believed Kaine’s story about buying new clothes for Kyron (unless Kaine is behind his disappearance) and wondered if he was buying the clothes for another boy, was observed doing so, and had to come up with a story. Both Desiree and Terri had sons, and situations seem to keep repeating themselves in Kaine World. And I fervently hope that there is not a 3rd child (new sibling of Baby K) in the mix. Kaine seems a little too knowledgeable regarding the “don’t separate siblings” practice. My fears run amok today.
@Patriciam good post, i remember reading an article early in the disapearance saying kyron told someone that his mother was dead. @nelmel. at first i thought that the wives might have something that kaine was holding over them and thats why thecy were worried about him taking their children. but when desiree stated she was worried about him taking quinn-who kaine isnt related to i doubted that. kaine would never have been able to legally take quinn from her- he would have to disapear him or something. that is the
only way kaine could take him from her. made me wonder what he said to these women to make them so fearful of that.
onder what he
said to these women to make them fearful of that.
Sorry-i cant see my comments to edit before i post-Its only a semi smart phone. vw do you have kaines depo on your page and is it ok to post me a link here? Or if anyone has a link to those docs can you post? Thanks and sorry if i just missed seeing them already.
“Now, with both wives having the same concern, to me, that could suggest: KH holding something over their heads.
What would that be?”
Good point, NM. Some manipulators might purposely introduce a person to something illegal–sketchy–immoral for the sole purpose of the anvil hanging over the head. But sometimes they get sloppy, and are just as culpable as the one they are setting up—-that’s when they need an “ace in the hole” with the likes of LE who also might play the same game…Yet, when the one who SHOULD have “Fallen” doesn’t trip, things tend to implode.
And still… no Kyron—still think of that “other” meaning for Chyron–the crawl on the bottom of the screen…often unnoticed, but there. Trying to tell us SOMETHING.
Blink says, I respectfully disagree there is any evidence or wide turn there is corporate espionage here in any capacity.
B
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My understanding of corporate espionage is spying to get trade secrets or secret info from another company. I am not suggesting that at all! but that in some way employees besides K are involved in steroid ring. And that that is based on no facts but pure speculation on my part.
Fair Point GH, I was being broad, because as I understood your comment, you suggested “Intel Involvement.”
It is not out of the realm for a high profile case to result in scrutiny or concerns about infrastructure and the like. I was just trying to address that I do not feel that has permeated the facts of the case with the exception of Houze gleaning the name of Kaine’s supervisor most intentionally.
not sure if Miss Bri said this or was quoting someone, but the question was if one picture on the Goodbye Kitty page was of Kiara. When I saw the picture of the little red-headed girl I wondered the same thing, and honestly it freaked me out. no idea if it is but if so that is even more acceptable than everything else.
I’m very much afraid that this whole divorce with all its drama will not help find Kyron. LE has intertwined the two for its own purposes but it’s a distraction, a sad breakup of two people who were once (I assume) in love.
Does everyone remember when I said there were language barrier issues, and again referred to broken english and english as a second language?
B
As a Lang. Aquisition teacher, i’d say Qui, madam. 4 years into this and depo suggests RSE is still not clear on the meanings of the conversation.
@Rose.
Still think K.Boy has been schooled by Houze, has K’s best interest in mind.
Not sure this was a perp. depo, but if it was hope kantor rules soon to re-depo hi
Agree, that either Kaine was ill-prepared for the subtleties of Houze and/or is unable to
pick up on why the turn of questioning that in the end did him in. He’s known for putting
foot into mouth. How quickly he adjusted to the words “Don’t guess” suggests to me
that he compartmentalizes to preserve emotional balance. Very verbal, smart, but
unable to really communicate. Asp….maybe. Heard somewhere that Kyron was diagnosed with it
and IF that is the case, that would explaine the behavioral system and the end of school appt.
@Blink…listened to your podcast. I’m sure you have read the last two days of audit report and then
Staton’s report to the Commissioners. *waving my hand…pick ME! to be on a citizen board*
Otherwise…i’ll start fundraising for a contender next year.
@sam h, you are priceless
@Grass, take your theory a step higher than Kaine, to his
Intel interfaces. (btw does their Calif hdqtrs have an
employee gym onsite?)
Correction, of sorts, above. K-boy meaning Kantor. But Kaine…that, too. Dont’ think he has the ability to analyze why he was schooled by Houze, but with so very little, H. manged to discover a lot.
Steroids or not there is some people who have been Terri haters for over 3 years almost daily
To me this seems really unusual
And they are so into it
I had a long black coat I liked a few years back I wonder did people think I was a witch after reading the comments about Terri’s coat LOL
Anyway someone said we don’t. Use the word mugged that much I hear it on TV mostly
And Kaine’s depo made no sense. To me he can’t seem to focus
And Rudy seems to want us to believe Kaine was going pay for his
own mugging with a computer and 10 thousand
That is all I see LOL
this says Intel has a high tech gym with personal trainers somewhere
http://newsroom.intel.com/community/intel_newsroom/blog/2011/02/16/chip-shot-intels-high-tech-gym-shows-improvement-in-employee-healthp
http://www.coreperformance.com/daily/news/intel-unveils-high-tech-employee-fitness-center.html
one of them
http://www.coreperformance.com/intel/santa-clara/
heck, maybe “Phyliss” was an Intel personal trainer.
I admit I’m up pretty late while pondering so correct me if I am wrong (I searched for a link and couldn’t find one.) wasn’t there a report of Kyron telling someone (maybe at school?) that his Mom was dead?
If this is accurate, I’m curious as to when he said it and who he was possibly influenced by prior to saying it.
Back to reading.
my aha moment. Imo Kaine’s answers are best explained
if he has placed another woman in his home
whom Kiara calls mother, and he does not want to go into that.
I agree it is worthy territory, but I do not personally believe if that were true, he would not have been cross examined as to the point. LE did not tell him to have someone else call his baby Mommy, there is only so much mileage.
B
From the KATE SNOW show July 26th, 2010
Kate: So all of the sudden you know that there’s another woman. You’re eight months pregnant.
DESIREE YOUNG: Yeah.
KATE SNOW: Must have been a low point in your life.
DESIREE YOUNG: Yeah. It was pretty hard to handle. I cried solid for two months and didn’t leave the bedroom because I didn’t understand why she somehow equated to something that was better than me and my son.
Kaine, however, insists that he and Desiree had broken up before he stated seeing Terri, agreeing to live separate lives under the same roof just until their baby came along. In any event, Kaine and Desiree eventually divorced. At first Desiree moved into a new place near Kaine’s home in Portland. Little Kyron lived with her for the first two years of his life. But Desiree was sick with severe kidney problems.
DESIREE YOUNG: I had gotten to the point where I was in the hospital usually
three or four times throughout the year.
KATE SNOW: Your kidneys were failing?
DESIREE YOUNG: Yeah. I was so sick that I was passing out at times.
Desiree says she went to Canada for treatment and gave Kaine temporary custody of Kyron. When she got back, still recovering and drowning in medical bills, they decided together that Kyron would be best off staying with his dad. She admits that, despite the anguish Terri had caused her in he past, she now thought Kaine and Terri could give Kyron a good life.
DESIREE YOUNG: I didn’t see anything that I was unhappy with. I didn’t think that my child was unhappy.
But in hindsight, she regrets the decision.
Desire….
1.”couldn’t see how TERRI “equated” to something better than her and cried for 2 months.”
2.” admits that despite the anguish TERRI had caused her..”
What about Kaine? Did Terri even know Desiree existed when she first met him? Did she know she was eight months pregnant? Terri caused her the anquish? Nothing about how Kaine caused her anquish?
Is this what the stalk and chalking is really all about? The “anti” pages supported by DY who blamed tmh rather than Kaine for her failing marriage?
Horman Kaine Andrew */Horman Terri Lynn Moulton MCR 12/16/13 9:15A THXK 544 JUDGE KANTOR 100666084 Hearing Motion
Now where, oh where are my Jimmy C.’s?
T. Ruth says:
December 12, 2013 at 11:53 am
@vw says:
December 12, 2013 at 12:49 am
Houze has him in between a rock and hard place, he can’t say it was his idea and intention to separate child from mother as he knows that is just plain wrong and not in the child’s best interest which he learned from his parenting class, that he took after divorcing Desiree Young. (Remember the RO Desiree issued on Kaine, because she was afraid he would take her boys?)
He can’t say LE made him do it, if they did, because that will open up a huge lawsuit against Multnomah County.
Mostly, I love the disclaimer part at the bottom where it says Mr. Horman has the right to change his mind in future depositions. LOL, are you kidding me?
======
Truth….just love the way that sage operates. Has had a few years to contemplate the quiet assault, n’est pas?
Rose-
As someone who lives 5 miles from Menlo Park I can tell you it’s wonderful, as are it’s neighbors Palo Alto (which the BF has dubbed “shallow Alto”), and to the north San Carlos and Woodside. It’s a beautiful place to live, expensive and pretentious, but beautiful nonetheless.
T. Ruth says:
December 12, 2013 at 11:04 pm
cd says:
December 12, 2013 at 6:20 pm
I guess my question is a legal one. Could a step-mom ever get custody of her step-child, when there are two bio-parents still around and deemed at the very least somewhat okay parents? What would be the circumstances that would ever be allowed?
I don’t know the legal ramifications. I also wonder why, if true, Terri would ever tell anyone that she thought Kaine *COULD* take away her child? Why would Desiree Young, years ago, think that Kaine could do the same thing, apparently, and even more so ,take away her first son Quinn as well, Ky’s half brother?
IDK, but I have a feeling we’re all being duped by someone. I hope someone has the wherewithal to go back to the old NRH divorce documents and see what was going on back then.
===================================================================
If I am to believe anything that came out of the “no she didn’t actually say THAT” RSE deposition, I could buy it that TMH stated she feared her husband would take her daughter from her. I can also believe that DY felt that was a risk as well when she was divorcing KH. Now, with both wives having the same concern, to me, that could suggest: KH holding something over their heads.
What would that be?
the way I see it, we have no idea at all if LE told Kaine a word about Kiara & mother.
First, Engel answered the depo question, nir Kaine, & Engel was not under oath.
Second, Engel wasn’t there. He is reliant on what Kaine told him when Kaine was not under oath.
Wrt “Houze: Has Kiara indicated to you that she believes that her mother is dead?” The phrasing is Houze’s, deliberately chosen, and I am sure he knows exactly Kiara’s situation. He threw a catch 22 question with deliberation imo. My guess it really was an easy answer that Kitty has not been told mother is dead because she is calling and knows someone else as mother. And Kaine couldn’t bring himself to say that. That is my bet.
Don’t recall if I posted this
parental alienation
http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/ofw/index.cfm/blog/parental-alienation-and-children-exhibiting-visitation-refusal-behaviour1/
and
http://www.breakthroughparenting.com/PAS.htm
“To them, having total control over their child is a life and death matter. Because they don’t understand how to please other people, any effort to do so always has strings attached. They don’t give; they only know how to take. They don’t play by the rules and are not likely to obey a court order.”
“What makes this problem very complicated is that PAS is often intergenerational in dysfunctional families. Almost always the alienator has people within the family who support the alienation. It might be the mother, father or grandparent who encourage fighting. They are likely to support the parent financially or even provide massive amounts of money to fund litigation. This is further proof to the PAS parent that he or she is justified in what he/she does.”
@Lauren. Congrats. I’d kill to live there, well almost.
I sent my kid traveling alone at Xmas to a Stanford winter residential sports camp
two years (frequent flier mi), hoping she’d chose that area. I still want to know why Houze
asked Kaine the name of a man who MAY be the owner of 3 bars & online complaints wrt Costa
Rica condo. All in good time.
grasshopper says:
December 12, 2013 at 8:49 pm
GH says, Characters in the hater crater. SM, who was all offended at the fake anti page and is ‘officially’ running the new and improved hate page is the mother of TWO kids who murdered another child for drugs. It certainly puts in perspective the kind of people that D is associating herself and call themselves Kyron Warriors.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Grasshopper, irt cauldrons: SL, who has had her own legal issues, continually bashes KH and DY and bullies those who don’t share her pov on her various internet pages and OLive. IMO, ALL of these individuals are nothing more than schoolyard bullies at their worst. In addition, imo, trashing an individual and her children does nothing to further this case. Kyron is still missing.
All respectfully submitted.
Engel’s behavior was imo so odd in the depo, I went looking for teaching about opposing counsel’s expected behavior to educate myself. Indiana has a plain language guide to Federal Rules (and its own State). I found Pts 1., 2., & 5.a. interesting.
http://www.inbar.org/Portals/0/The%20Top%20Ten%20Things%20to%20Know%20about%20Objections%20during%20Depositions_docx.docx
It is probably in the Oregon Bar Procedures and responsibilities, it is sometimes dictated by Judges as well
B
Does anyone know why DY only had Kyron one weekend per month? That seems a small amount of visitation time between mom and a small child.
Tarheel who I adore- you are not reading earlier posts my friend. I have addressed this at length, and I understand, can anyone help her out?
B
Rose says,
@Grass, take your theory a step higher than Kaine, to his
Intel interfaces. (btw does their Calif hdqtrs have an
employee gym onsite?)
~~~~~~~~~~
I have long speculated Intel involvement, either among employees with tacit knowledge by higher up, or something more formal involving the company. they are in the perfect position to move things around with their daily flights to Calif and I’m sure elsewhere, in fact all over the world. Also Intel would have the influence to harden K’s protective shell. School locations could also be involved to some point since Intel does things at various schools and is considered a Good Friend. At one point I scoured the internet for any way to put this theory forward but not surprisingly found nothing. We also have the entanglement of one particular synagogue social circle. we know this could all mean big money but I can’t find anything to hang my suspicions on. I do agree with people here who say K is not clever enough or powerful enough to manipulate LE to this degree. there has to be more to it. Early on when things began to go so wrong, I thought it has to be drugs or porn. I still think that. We have good reason to believe it’s steroids, no idea if there is a porn element.
I respectfully disagree there is any evidence or wide turn there is corporate espionage here in any capacity.
B
The billboard sign that DY put up has bothered me from day one. Sure, the red highlights add emphasis. Viewed seperately ithe red highlighted words together could be read as a sentence as could the un-highlighted words. This may have already been discussed.
@ Nel Mel. You have given me a lot to think about. It seems to me that TMH reached out to LE about the steroids and that opened a can of worms that KH was a part of with LE. After KY went missing KH’s first directive to Intel employees not to speak of the matter was a CYA move. And it seems that KH’s pointing the finger at TMH goes back to her deceiving him in the first place by outing him to LE (who already knew what he was up to because they were up to it too) and that is the avenue he envisions causes her to be the bad guy.
I do not think either parent stashed him anywhere, because keeping up the charade of that would have to have dimmed by now. I don’t think TMH or KH is guilty in the disappearance, yet I think both of them are culpable to a degree.
As to what he has to hold over his wife(s) in order to get them to believe that he will gain custody of the children I can only offer that mentally abusive spouses can convince their partners that they have the upper hand. My sister who just divorced after 38 years of marriage believed her husband that if she left him he would take their son and she would never see him again. No manner of trying to convince her otherwise by myself or our other sisters worked. She stayed with him knowing full well he had no ability to take care of any other human being, let alone a child.
KH is manipulative and up to his eyeballs in playing the game of “this is mine not yours” (i.e., children, money, cars, property). I’m of the personality that would never, ever, put up with this and it always amazes me that these type people can continue to lure new victims into their lives and their beds.
It is possible that TMH was planning to leave and that is why she tried to get DY to petition for custody, and she sent James away. I don’t think she wanted any of the children to end up with KH and I bet she worries about her daughter all of the time.
All of this is JMOO.
Well, the un-highlighted could be two sentences too. Hmm.
Was there only one billboard or were there more?
grasshopper says:
December 12, 2013 at 8:49 pm
_____
Not surprised in the least.
NelMel says: (snipped) SZ is LE and grabbing Kyron was step one in getting rid of TMH as a threat to any of them.
______
Yes. LE or Portland Schools staff.
I posted a link showing one of those involved with the roid bust was a gym instructor in one of the Portland area high schools.
The profile of the abductor, IMO only as I’m not trained in these things, could fit someone from LE or security. Rose has suggested someone with tactical training and I agree with that assessment.
Get in, get out, be stealthy.
@Rose,
You’re right IMO if you think ol green eyes may factor in somewhere. 404 Error- date card is full.
I recall the woman Kathleen deSpain Moore, child advocate & her ‘Army of Angels’ & her short lived relationship w/KH in the media campaign for Kyron.
Someone didn’t like her as evidenced: http://crimewatch.us/KDM.htm
Actually, from the link, she doesn’t appear to be promoting Child Advocacy. Her addy -prpersonfromhell@XXXX.com is telling, IMO.
Mentioned on BOC below & elsewhere
http://blinkoncrime.com/2012/06/11/kyron-horman-missing-case-breaking-news-remains-believed-to-be-human-located-off-sauvie-island/comment-page-35/
RedRose says: (snipped)I understand about LE corruption probably pretty prevalent here in Portland, but for pete’s sake, there have to be at least ONE or TWO honest LEOs around. Turning on their peers is worth it even if they lose their jobs. Who would want to work for a law enforcement agency that corrupt anyway? They should just blow their whistles and then go somewhere and sell cars. or something.
_______
I think there are a few honest officers involved Rose. Countless cases where the good ones will not speak out because of fear.
Someone at that level speaking out is exactly the break this case needs.
I agree with this. That thin blue line is a femoral artery, I don’t care what anyone says.
B
T Ruth asks: I guess my question is a legal one. Could a step-mom ever get custody of her step-child, when there are two bio-parents still around and deemed at the very least somewhat okay parents? What would be the circumstances that would ever be allowed?
____
I know the answer to this… a big fat no, step would not ever get custody over birth parent unless relinquished by birth parent or state took child as a ward and gave custody to step.
Respectfully AS, the answer to a legal question cannot be an opinion. Not unless you are a judge referencing your own, lol. I cited some case law early on regarding both step sibling and non-bio parental cases as it relates to Oregon family court- it is not likely, but in the words of kantor, it is unlike any other case. Regardless, the issue is perception. How is it relative if at all, and based upon what party’s understanding of the law?
B
There have been precedent setting cases to back that up. Even a grandparent can not get custody over a parent.
Maybe the word mugged has a geographic usage. I don’t think it’s odd. I think of it in terms of someone being held up on the streets by someone with a gun. But I grew up in NY, where maybe it was more prevalent. ? Maybe for RSE it was as well.
RE:
~snip
Malty says:
December 13, 2013 at 1:08 am
Anyway someone said we don’t. Use the word mugged that much I hear it on TV mostly
And Kaine’s depo made no sense. To me he can’t seem to focus
And Rudy seems to want us to believe Kaine was going pay for his
own mugging with a computer and 10 thousand
That is all I see LOL
patriciamochalatte says:
December 13, 2013 at 1:35 am
____
That was weird, wasn’t it? Wish I could remember where that information came from.
I remember mentally correlating that to Desiree’s remark “Kyron saw it all and was involved” as if he/Ky witnessed heated exchanges between Terri and a potential accomplice or abductor prior to his disappearance.
@Rose
Going on the question from H. … Did you reach that decision (to not talk to Kiara about her mother’s absence) independently? And his answer, finally, was that he would say No.
So who else encouraged him …. after Engel’s had just refered to answer being difficult because it could involve LE?
Well, maybe new mommy? But don’t think cargopants was making that leap.
Just thinking about all those pressers where Kaine and DY kept justifying world hatred of TMH by
stating….”LE has informed me……”
Now, when push comes to shove in these depos they must be very frustrated that they are being intensly questioned and the prhase is completely off the table but the elephant in the room.
“They” if and when DY gets finally depoed after she and TY were spared by the DA’s office…”arrests are happening any day now — anti’s get yer guns, it will be in August”
Wish I could get complete depos. I’m sure we will learn more Monday.
Have a “lucky” day today.
Rose posted: http://www.breakthroughparenting.com/PAS.htm
This is a true thing and can involve personality disorder/s on behalf of the withholding parent. I agree totally with why PAS has developed and the effects on the child as written in the article. I’ve seen this in action and it is something to behold.
Still can’t believe the depths to which people will go, even eternally harming children, to ‘get back’ or ‘destroy’ the other parent.
I do not know that this applies to Kaine given the circumstances of summer 2010 and that Kyron clearly loved Desiree, though.
Blink, given all that has transpired in the years since Kyron has gone missing, do you still feel as though this is a sexually motivated crime?
My mind just can’t wrap around steroids having anything more to do with this than perhaps being a way to “let the vampire in.” I’ve seen the seedy underbelly of drug use and abuse, and I have to say that steroids are a different beast entirely. It’s not like heroin or meth use, where people are like animals after their next fix. It’s more of a narcissist drug, if that makes sense. Heroin and meth users don’t care, the steroid users I’ve known DO care, that’s why they do it. It just doesn’t mesh with me in this. I could be wrong, but I feel it’s not necessarily an explanation as to “why Kyron?” I mean, maybe it’s a part of the cover up, but I don’t think it was an impetus to his being taken. All just MHO
Yes, I do.
B
@cd & nel mel. My guess is both wives were cautioned
about the custody possibilities
because they knew someone in his prior
generations did the same, successfully. The old adage
like father (or mother), like son.
Rose
I agree with your position about control of a child by a parent that has a problem of ownership. That can be expanded to all members of such a person’s family. Such as brothers, sisters and any children they may have. I believe that is a problem that is associated with being a sociopath.
-snip
arental alienation can also be a causal factor in self-injuring behaviour in children, including eating disorders. Alienated children are at a high risk of drug and alcohol abuse, they may suffer from mood disorders, have low self esteem, they may be depressed, or anxious or trying to cope with persistent panic attacks and some alienated children have been misdiagnosed as asthmatic.
-snip
Today, mental health professionals already recognize parental alienation as a serious form of child abuse and science has unraveled how a parent’s negative influence can inculcate a child with parental alienation syndrome.
http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/ofw/index.cfm/blog/parental-alienation-and-children-exhibiting-visitation-refusal-behaviour1/
———
This article is a real eye opener. Not only has Kaine caused psychological harm to Kiara but he has done so with the assistance of a supposed family court judge. I thought Family court judges were supposed to know something about children’s welfare. I don’t know how judge K sleeps at night.
Thank you so much, Rose, and others including Blink who are helping to shine a light on the terrible damage that is done to children when parental alienation causes them to reject one of their parents which in essence causes them to reject half of themselves!
@Albalass- That “Goodbye Kitty” fb page is disgusting and imo is threatening. Poster CarolNLarry commented on one of the pictures “Be safe, Kitty” and I want to know WTH that is supposed to mean. Did you notice the page was founded on 6/4/10? Would love to know if that’s the date the page was created or if the creator was able to pick the date. Whoever did this is seriously f’ed up
———-
Albalass says:
December 8, 2013 at 12:03 pm
@Blink. I’m not sure if you want to post this up or not – But i wanted to draw your attention to it.
Is that Kiara in one of the pics half way down? Is this not illegal?
https://www.facebook.com/GoodByeKittyHaveAGoodLife
best regards, albaLass.
There is some effed up people in this world and if they think anyone thinks this is funny or appropriate they need an evaluation
B
@Rose says:
December 13, 2013 at 9:36 am
“My guess it really was an easy answer that Kitty has not been told mother is dead because she is calling and knows someone else as mother.”
———-
This has weighed heavily on my heart all day. I believe you are correct. I would like to know if the replacement also has a son. I’ve never believed Kaine’s story about buying new clothes for Kyron (unless Kaine is behind his disappearance) and wondered if he was buying the clothes for another boy, was observed doing so, and had to come up with a story. Both Desiree and Terri had sons, and situations seem to keep repeating themselves in Kaine World. And I fervently hope that there is not a 3rd child (new sibling of Baby K) in the mix. Kaine seems a little too knowledgeable regarding the “don’t separate siblings” practice. My fears run amok today.
@Patriciam good post, i remember reading an article early in the disapearance saying kyron told someone that his mother was dead. @nelmel. at first i thought that the wives might have something that kaine was holding over them and thats why thecy were worried about him taking their children. but when desiree stated she was worried about him taking quinn-who kaine isnt related to i doubted that. kaine would never have been able to legally take quinn from her- he would have to disapear him or something. that is the
only way kaine could take him from her. made me wonder what he said to these women to make them so fearful of that.
onder what he
said to these women to make them fearful of that.
Sorry-i cant see my comments to edit before i post-Its only a semi smart phone. vw do you have kaines depo on your page and is it ok to post me a link here? Or if anyone has a link to those docs can you post? Thanks and sorry if i just missed seeing them already.
NelMel says:
December 13, 2013 at 9:16 am
“Now, with both wives having the same concern, to me, that could suggest: KH holding something over their heads.
What would that be?”
Good point, NM. Some manipulators might purposely introduce a person to something illegal–sketchy–immoral for the sole purpose of the anvil hanging over the head. But sometimes they get sloppy, and are just as culpable as the one they are setting up—-that’s when they need an “ace in the hole” with the likes of LE who also might play the same game…Yet, when the one who SHOULD have “Fallen” doesn’t trip, things tend to implode.
And still… no Kyron—still think of that “other” meaning for Chyron–the crawl on the bottom of the screen…often unnoticed, but there. Trying to tell us SOMETHING.
Blink says, I respectfully disagree there is any evidence or wide turn there is corporate espionage here in any capacity.
B
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My understanding of corporate espionage is spying to get trade secrets or secret info from another company. I am not suggesting that at all! but that in some way employees besides K are involved in steroid ring. And that that is based on no facts but pure speculation on my part.
Fair Point GH, I was being broad, because as I understood your comment, you suggested “Intel Involvement.”
It is not out of the realm for a high profile case to result in scrutiny or concerns about infrastructure and the like. I was just trying to address that I do not feel that has permeated the facts of the case with the exception of Houze gleaning the name of Kaine’s supervisor most intentionally.
B
not sure if Miss Bri said this or was quoting someone, but the question was if one picture on the Goodbye Kitty page was of Kiara. When I saw the picture of the little red-headed girl I wondered the same thing, and honestly it freaked me out. no idea if it is but if so that is even more acceptable than everything else.
I’m very much afraid that this whole divorce with all its drama will not help find Kyron. LE has intertwined the two for its own purposes but it’s a distraction, a sad breakup of two people who were once (I assume) in love.
Interesting re: KH’s supervisor/manager in Cali. I see why he choked on that answer. Good catch Rose.
Right? New phrase for BOC “Rose Knows”.
B
@patricia says:
December 13, 2013 at 12:24 pm
Agree with your post. Yep.
A Rose, by that name or any name, also smells.
Cuts both ways. Often wrong. Try to be circumspect though.