Blink On Crime Kyron Horman Investigation Exclusive: DeDe Spicher Interview Yields Allegations Of Illegal Steroid Use Terri Horman Took To Police
A Blink On Crime Exclusive: DeDe Spicher speaks for the first time about her ordeal in the Kyron Horman investigation- continued ©
S. Christina Stoy, Editor In Chief- Blink On Crime
DeDe Spicher and Terri Moulton Horman
In the first part of blinkoncrime.com’s exclusive interview with DeDe Spicher, she revealed that after over 3 years of attempting to provide Multnomah County Sheriffs Office as well as Assistant Deputy Attorney Norm Frink with the necessary information they requested to clear her from any suspicion in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Skyline second grader Kyron Horman; she has finally been cleared after passing a polygraph as part of her requirement under an immunity deal that has been sealed with the court. Unofficially cleared, that is.
Spicher and her attorney Chad Stavley, who have since refused all local media requests, would very much like the Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office and current District Attorney Rod Underhill to clear her officially and publicly.
Spicher is adamant that law enforcement never had any reason to question her statements to them from the beginning, has cooperated fully for over three years and recently testified before the grand jury to prove she had nothing to hide. While she would like the public to know that any assertions to the contrary are untrue, and sometimes have been offered maliciously, her desire to speak out about her experience over the last three years is primarily to force investigative resources to review it’s progress- and hopefully adjust in a way to further leads in Kyron’s case.
As was proven not only by her recent polygraph, but also by the verification that no evidence ever existed to support investigator’s theory in the first place, Spicher had no information about anyone’s potential involvement in Kyron’s disappearance, let alone her own.
The continuation of our interview, which provoked some very interesting revelations long felt to be a possibility by many, was confirmed by Ms. Spicher as she says- told to her by Terri Moulton Horman are prompting new possible theories in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Kyron Horman. Two days after Kyron Horman’s eleventh birthday.
Stoy: So, in your estimation then, why do you think that detectives Herron and Kravfe were so sure that you were involved or knew who was.
Spicher: I have thought about this a lot, and I think there were a few reasons. I think because I was advised through a meeting Terri had with a family friend and attorney that she should assume that all of her communication was being monitored by law enforcement and anyone she had contact with. He told her to assume the house was bugged as well as vehicles, etc. I also believe you did an article a while back that pointed out her phone was in Kaine’s name. As this was a day or two after she was served with the restraining order, she was also told that
Stoy (interrupting): You bought a prepaid phone after June 28th and never had one before that? I had read that you or someone else purchased them the day of or the day after Kyron’s disappearance.
Spicher: No. I purchased one prepaid phone, after Terri shared the info from her meeting, in my own name, either June 29th or 30th. I think they were hung up on the fact that I came to her aid with no contact for so long so they just were convinced there had to be.
Stoy: ok, sorry, continue. So you are not saying that LE was suggesting that you were hiding some other number you had and that was how they were alleging that you HAD to have been in contact with Terri or some other person prior to and on June 4th and that escalated your “poi” status in your opinion?
Spicher: They did not say that to me specifically, but what they repeated over and over again, was that Terri and I had to have had some form of communication we were hiding. It never made any sense to me because I knew I only had my cell that I had forever until the end of June, and I knew I had not been in contact with Terri since her 40th birthday party in March. So I would ask- well then I guess that means that you don’t have any contacts you can’t verify from either of us so why am I even in this “interview”?
To my recollection they never shared with me or answered any of my questions in response when something they kept hounding me about seemed absurd and conflicting with their theory.
Stoy: Which was?
Spicher: At first, I think that they really believed I was involved, and at some point I think they were talking more “accessory after the fact” because I got the impression ( although they did not share it with me) that Terri’s cell phone activity that day was nowhere near where I was, and my vehicle never left, nor did I. They would not verify that they located the ceramics/glassware artist [pottery artisan] I told you about and still have not.
Stoy: So in your opinion, you were clearly the linchpin of this case, they [LE] believed you held the key to solving it and/or implicating Terri exclusively at that point, they no longer entertained your involvement per se?
Spicher: I honestly don’t think I could say that I ever believed that they stopped treating me as some sort of suspect. I never felt that way, but yes, absolutely they 100% believe that Terri is responsible and I definitely believed we all had to be interviewed and scrutinized or whatever, but I really thought up until the meeting with Norm Frink that they [LE] would abandon that theory quickly because if they were positive I was the key, and I knew I was not, that would also eliminate Terri, who I did not and do not believe, but have no proof, was involved or knew anything.
Stoy: Right, so if you had nothing, and they felt you were the only nexus, it had to mean that they had no independent evidence of anything or anyone else so they would start in another direction?
Spicher: Right, but every interaction I had with them following and including the request to participate in the sting against her, made me believe they never did. To get back to the why question you asked me- my final thought on that is that they kept pointing out that I was the person to tell everyone not to speak to them without attorneys in the beginning. I would ask like who do you mean, because that would have been my opinion across the board for any situation, but it was definitely based on what was getting out about how they were going about this. I was scared and it turned out it was good reason. I also would point out to them that I did not think that was or should be the basis for suspicion because if it was, it seemed to me that I was told that several staff members at Skyline had hired counsel, and Kaine was the FIRST to have one between he and Terri and I had told her at least a week or so before that she should.
Stoy: Why do you think she did not immediately take your friendly advice? Your Dad was LE, and I presume she knew that. People can say what they want, but I know many members of law enforcement in different jurisdictions and agencies. I have worked with them or contributed analysis to cases with them privately [I cannot and would not ever include that in anything I choose to write on] and I can tell you that I do not know one of them that if they were the focus of a criminal probe or internal investigation they absolutely do not agree to an interview without a representative. In fact, Herron is or was the President of Mulnomah County Police Union or was, if I recall correctly. So to that end, I find that a pretty hypocritical reason for suspicion of anyone.
Spicher: (laughs) Interesting. I am not sure that I knew that. The reason Terri didn’t get an atty before the RO was because she was told by LE that if she did, she wouldn’t be privvy to any of their investigative discoveries, she would be out of the loop in finding Kyron.
Stoy: Have you had a desire or opportunity to review any sort of past events regarding the MCSO, I guess I should add, that involve anyone in this case or investigation you have had contact with?
Spicher: No, do you mean like any other detectives or that sort of thing?
Stoy: Have you ever met with or been interviewed with any other agencies or detectives?
Spicher: I believe I either met or just said hello to the guy you mentioned in that recent article of yours while he was at the house. Both Kaine and Terri were there at the time as well.
Stoy: Bobby O’Donnell?
Spicher: That’s it, yes, him. Why did you ask me if I am aware of any sort of events- should I be?
Stoy: Well, I think that tangentially if I were you I would be considering just about everything as it related to what you have been through, and I am aware of some what I will refer to as “stuff” but what I don’t want to do prior to the completion of our interview process is temper any of your responses with anything I know peripherally if that’s ok with you. If you wish, once I publish the continuation which will have that sort of information, I would invite you to comment on it for the record if you choose- are you ok with that?
Spicher: yes, that’s fine and probably a good idea.
Stoy: back briefly to the “sting request against Terri- On that issue- the request they extended to you outside the presence of your attorney and that they asked you not to tell Chad, as you think back , considering you have had no communication with Horman for over three years did you believe they thought it would work? What did your attorney say when you told him?
Spicher: I can’t and won’t address any conversations I have had with my attorney, but to answer your question as to my opinion, I really don’t know for sure, I knew that I did not, and thought it was really, really odd- that was my first reaction. After more thought, and other conversations, I don’t see how they thought it would work, or why they were still seemingly convinced after I had just passed the poly, etc, Terri was still their suspect and responsible. What is your opinion on it?
Stoy: I think I may reserve my thoughts on that for my piece. Again, not wanting to temper your opinions as we move along here and I think that could happen if I did. Is that ok with you?
Spicher: Sure, thank you.
Stoy: I would like to move on to another subject for discussion. I would just like to confirm for the record that I have never prior to this interview, asked you any questions about your potential knowledge of steroid use by yourself, or by Terri or Kaine Horman. Is that correct?
Spicher: Correct, ok.
Stoy: Did they ask you this?
Spicher: Who is they? You got a lot of pronouns flying around (laughs).
Stoy: Fair point, you’re right. The good news is, as English, or should I say proper English is my second language (laughs) I use an copy editor. Allow me to rephrase please. Did anyone in law enforcement at any time ask you about steroids or other illegal injectable supplements sometimes used in weight training or body building in your interviews in this case?
Spicher: Your question was did they [le] ask me anything about steroids or anything injectable ever?
Stoy: (laughs) now who’s throwing around the pronouns?
Spicher: (laughs) touche’ . I was asked about it very vaguely in the beginning, I told them I had never used them, that I did not believe Terri ever did because she and I had similar views against using them and while we were on different supplement regimens when I was training for a marathon in 2008 I still remembered her to be knowledgeable about legal and effective nutritional supplements. I had no reason to believe she had ever used any kind of steroids. I can’t say conclusively she never did but it would shock me.
Stoy: Why shock you?
Spicher: Because a few years back I recall Terri telling me that Kaine was what she referred to as “juicing” and that his behavior had become very aggressive and well, impatient or overeactive with the kids and she had discussed it with him and he ignored her.
Stoy: So for the record, when you say juicing you are referring to illegal steroids, not my Omega specials I make, correct? That was the only question they ever asked you and did not ask any follow up questions like how long ago, etc, etc. And so would you characterize the way law enforcement asked that question and their reaction to your response as disinterested, or having nothing to do with the case?
Spicher: I was never asked about Kaine’s use of steroids by either detectives or the grand jury. But yes, that is what she told me. I actually had forgotten all about it until she refreshed my recollection when I stayed there with her. To the best of my memory I was asked just what I said, I answered as I just said and was never asked any follow up question nor was it mentioned again to me by law enforcement . I don’t think I ever really understood what they did or did not think in terms of my information was important to the case, but yes, they were disinterested from my perspective as to it was the only time I was ever asked about it over the course of three and a half years and so my assumption is they still are. But that is my assumption.
Stoy: Understood, you are referring to the time you stayed at the Horman home late June 2010 through early July 2010 following Kaine’s service of the restraining order and her exclusive use of the home? Spicher: I am not sure about the exclusive use part, I didn’t really know anything about how that sort of thing worked and I think for some reason I want to say Terri was not allowed to show anyone.
Stoy: Ok. Tell me everything you know about that. But, I would like you to see if you can provide me your recollection from what you were told about steroid use PRIOR to your conversations about it that refreshed your memory. By the way, who else knows about this, if you know.
Spicher: Terri’s attorney Stephen Houze.
Stoy: How would you know that?
Spicher: Because I helped her load them up, what appeared to me to be syringes in a box and deliver it to her attorney’s office, she said, at his request. She also located some cancelled checks for what she said was Kaine’s payment for steroids. I don’t remember who they were made out to but it was not to cash.
Stoy: ok, understood, we will get back to that. I want to try and focus on what she told you those “few years back.” Do you recall what year, even ballpark.
Spicher: I want to say, but can’t be sure, it was after her competition in 2005, and I am tempted to say it was around the time they got married or shortly thereafter- I am just not going to be much help in remembering this if you are asking me to extract what I remembered from then on my own.
Stoy: Nope, that’s what I am asking, your fine, I don’t want to lead you but let me ask you a few things that may help. Do you remember where you were during the conversation.
Spicher: I remember it was either the one and only time I ever had lunch with Terri, or it was during a time she called my cell, Terri had a lot of drama, and so I was in a Home & Garden Show class and I recall I was saying things out loud to let he know I was not free to talk really or respond as she was talking, so I was saying things like… I don’t know, we should probably touch base on that when I am done here, or sounds good that we chat on it later.
Stoy: The brush up the other party is not getting, like that?
Spicher: Yes, she was not getting it and so I was kind of 50% paying attention. It was either during that call or at the lunch. Other than that, I am not remembering the timing so well.
Stoy: But you would say a few years before Kyron went missing so based on that 2007 or 2008? Do you remember if they were married at the time?
Spicher: Again, we were friends for a good number of years but not close friends, I almost felt like if she was calling me or talking to me about it she had no other option at the time.
Stoy: Got it. What did she say
Spicher: She said that Kaine had been aggressive with her and impatient with the children and she attributed that to his “juicing”. She confronted him and she felt he did not listen to her. She told me that she then called a detective and turned in Kaine’s seller. The member at the gym, I used to know the name but I really can’t recall because I was in the early morning crowd and this guy was more afternoon, I presume when they were there or they saw him. I had stopped going to the same gym as them ater the first year or two I met them there.
Stoy: So she called a detective to turn in the seller Kaine was buying steroids from? Wasn’t she concerned about the fact that buying them is also illegal and that Kaine could face charges?
SPicher: She told me that she contacted a detective and said she would be willing to turn over information about someone selling steroids but only if she could do so anonymously and without saying who was buying them, etc.
Stoy: So it was your understanding that she was trying to work out a scenario that would stop Kaine’s use without him ever knowing it was her by turning in that person? Sort of like… she gets approval to remain anonymous, she gives the tip and then one day comes home and says… “Hey honey, guess what I heard at the gym.. you better stop that or you could be arrested for it, etc?
Spicher: Yes, something like that. Except and again, we have discussed it at one or both these occasions, but that did not work out. The detective called her again directly and she was upset that there was further contact. From what I recall, I think that was the tone of what she was telling me.
Stoy: Understood, so you are thinking that it may have been why she was sort of wired about it and not hearing you try to go about your day, but insisting and venting like she was upset by it.
Spicher: Yes, I think so.
Stoy: Do you think she could have called you because your Dad was law enforcement and she might need that sort of advice. I don’t think so because she did not ask for any. So then what? Did Kaine find out?
Spicher: I just remember there was some sort of investigation of the guy, and I really don’t know if Kaine ever found out about it or knows to this day. If the seller or anyone was arrested or anything else at the time I do not remember, that was how much I paid attention to it then until Terri reminded me of it.
Stoy: Ok. Now, why is it that Terri was discussing it with you when you were staying at the house with her in your view?
Spicher: Because after the restraining order was served and I guess she realized where Kaine was headed, it was sort of like- if he was going to badmouth her, in her estimation it was false, but anyway, that Kaine had skeletons in his own closet sort of thing. She told her lawyer [Houze] and she said he instructed her to bring the syringes and the cancelled checks to his office. We did.
Stoy: So was Terri saying that Kaine was using steroids behind her back and she found this or that she knew and was having sort of the same reaction as last time, or she just learned once he was out of the home or what? Was she suggesting this to you like it had something to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: I got the impression she did not know, or at least did not know when the last time he was using them was, but it gets fuzzy for me there because it is my belief up until the time the RO was served, in my opinion she would have tried to protect Kaine from le finding out so I don’t know if she told le, but it would surprise me. Terri was always very family centric. She would protect her family unit, and that is why she did the turning in thing, this would seem the same to me until he made those murder for hire allegations.
Stoy: So did you get the impression from her that she thought that her allegation of Kaine’s steroid use had anything to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: No, not at all.
Stoy: Nothing like, maybe this happened as some sort of retribution against her for turning someone in previously or against Kaine if they thought he was involved because after all she says he was the one buying it back then?
Spicher: No, she told me she had no idea who was responsible for Kyron’s disappearance or why, and the only possibility she came up with after the fact because of his past behavior and the fact that he showed up at her door demanding $10,000 she had no idea what he was talking about, that it was the landscaper. He was the only person acting like a criminal at the time.
Stoy: Have you ever seen a text of hers involving the custody situation after the fact, after the Rudy Sanchez Estrada “sting” and she called police twice that day/evening that ended with “mark 1 for the FBI.”
Spicher: I may have, if I did I don’t remember it specifically.
Stoy: She specifically said the FBI, who has only ever assisted in this case, and who has no jurisdictional presence in Kyron’s case, I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on that.
Spicher: No, I don’t have any idea what she meant.
Is it possible that illegal steroid use or sales and the recent public outing there was an ongoing Federal Investigation with the emphasis on police and gym members that included persons familiar to the Horman’s contributed to the circumstances involving the disappearance of Kyron Horman?
Has it been excluded by having more law enforcement investigating themselves?
Roid Rumors and Boys In Blue.. Coincidence Or Clue?
It is no secret that Oregon has seen it’s share of corruption allegations in recent years. The very public and very disturbing account of it’s Governor Neil Goldschmidt’s involvement with a 14 year old girl earned Willamette Week’s Nigel Jaquiss a Pulitzer in 2005 for breaking the story a year earlier. As a strong argument for the trickle down effect, Goldschmidt’s former driver Bernie Giusto- who became the Multnomah County Sheriff following the debacle, was forced to resign his position when a State agency declared they would be removing his police certifications due to his lack of “moral fitness” outlined in the now infamous Giusto Report. A former Sheriff, Bob Skipper, was then appointed to take his place, but after two attempts could not pass the required certifications. The current Multnomah Sheriff Dan Staton, who has since won an election, was appointed in his place. Several current MCSO officers assigned to Kyron’s case were interviewed for the Giusto report.
In fact, Bobby O’Donnell was the lead investigator in Kyron’s case for the first 18 months who according to his own words in his interview was the unfortunate subject of an allegation involving his own very messy divorce.
MCSO Sgt Brett Ritchie stated in a police interview that O’Donnell was seen waving a gun and threatening his life [Ritchie] after he began dating O’Donnell’s ex wife. Laura O’Donnell was granted a restraining order against him that later became an agreement between the couple.
The lead investigator in the case of a missing child openly threatened a ranking officer and that incident was never investigated outside of Ritchie being told to stay away from O’Donnell. O’Donnell’s deposition and his motion to quash it are the subject of a hearing scheduled for Friday September 13, 2013.
There is no question the agency tasked with the investigation into the disappearance of Kyron Horman has had several and more recent embarrassing entanglements.
In another investigative piece by the Willamette Week, it exposes the egregious overtime paychecks that members of the prosecutors and investigators assigned to Kyron’s case have received during the early months following Kyron’s disappearance.
It is unclear how Multnomah County ever had jurisdiction in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance. According to the Skyline School’s filed safety and response plan, the Portland Police Bureau is the agency of record.
Multnomah County’s former woes might have paled a bit in comparison if only by the difference a year makes to public memory, to that of their fellow neighboring officers in Canby, located in Clackamas County.
After several investigations into the selling and possible use of anabolic steroids a Canby Police officer, which were repeatedly stalled due to his caption tipping other’s off in the alleged ring , Officer Jason Deason was arrested along with Canby Landscape Supply Owner William Traverso, Brian Casey Paul Jackson were arrested. The investigation was believed to be ongoing and Traverso, Deason and Jackson all cut deals for quick prison stints that shocked fellow officers and the public alike. The specifics of which were sealed by the court. It is now known that the Federal Bureau of Investigation continued to require the ongoing cooperation of it’s criminals turned informants to pursue federal indictments against possible targets in law enforcement and members of the bodybuilding set- to include acquaintances of Kaine and Terri Horman.
Presuming the confirmed allegations are true- is it possible that ‘a few years back’ Terri Horman unwittingly set off a state turned Federal investigation into the buying, using and selling of human growth hormone and anabolic steroids? How could this be connected, if it is, to the timing of Kyron’s disappearance even if she had?
“… Jackson, through a plea deal on state charges in 2009 where he admitted to selling anabolic steroids to Canby police officers in uniform, had been working with the FBI on an ongoing investigation when they confronted him with the knowledge that he was found deceptive on a polygraph designed to indicate if Jackson’s participation was far more extensive then he originally admitted to…”
“…Jackson, with his attorney, began cooperating with federal authorities shortly after his arrest. He identified his source for steroids as Vancouver resident Rainbow “Bo” Wild Keepers, 39, a competitive bodybuilder and photographer. Agents ran Keepers’ name in federal databases and discovered that an Arizona man had tipped off the Drug Enforcement Administration years ago that Keepers was his source of steroids. Keepers was never charged…”
On June 3rd, 2010, approximately 24 hours before Kyron Horman’s disappearance, Jackson was arrested on a Federal warrant following a sealed indictment issued the day before after failing a polygraph and refusing to help the FBI further.
From the Indictment:
Between June 2, 2005 and May 2008, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials B.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
It has since been revealed that the initials BW stand for Bradley Worden. Worden owns a few businesses, all relating to wholesale gym equipment or nutritional products. Worden has never been charged.
Between June 2006 and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials N.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
The identity of the person with initials NW is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and December 2007,: in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule illcontrolled substances, to a person with the initials G.P., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and
841(b)( 1)(E).
The identity of the person with the initials G.P is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule III controlled substances, to a person with the initials S.B., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and 84l(b)(1)(E).
The initials S.B. refer to Steve Beaudoin, a former work associate of Jackson’s and current Oregon State safety officer.
According to assistant U.S. Attorney Jane Shoemaker, Jackson sold Beaudoin at least 50 pills of the steroid Winstrol, an injectable steroid called Deca Durabolin, Sustanon and, in June 2007, 100 pills of Anavar on one to two occasions. Shoemaker also said Jackson sold Beaudoin $500 worth of human growth hormone. Investigators discovered the sales through witness interviews and Jackson’s computer records, Shoemaker said.
From Buff To Puff
In contrast to Jackson, although Traverso also sold to Deason and other members of law enforcement, William ‘Jake’ Traverso, a former competitive bodybuilder and “Mr. Oregon” cooperated extensively with the FBI by identifying other law enforcement officers he sold steroids to, and got a lenient sentence of 15 days in jail, 30 days home detention and 24 months probation, with no federal charges.
In a letter submitted to a Clackamas County judge Monday, FBI Special Agent Christopher Frazier said that Traverso has discussed his drug distribution activities in detail. “The public safety employees identified by Traverso included law enforcement officers, corrections officers, fire and rescue personnel and university public safety officers,” Frazier wrote, “Several spin-off FBI public corruption investigations were initiated as a result of these allegations, and are ongoing.”
Traverso, Deason and Jackson were cooperating with the Feds simultaneously, and in a very public way. Although Deason had been similarly employed by the Canby Police under Chief Greg Kroeplin, at least one of the raids on Traverso- Deason’s client, was by Deason’s Canby fellow officer James Murphy.
John Hingson, Traverso’s attorney and past commentator on the Horman case, sparred with then ADA Norm Frink as well. Hingson unearthed the report that included Murphy had been demoted following Deason’s arrest and his credibility was called into question. Murphy worked the graveyard shift with Deason. The report also revealed that both Deason and Officer James Murphy, who was one of the few to initiate an investigation into Deason’s steroid abuse, were put at risk when they were scheduled to work side by side as the only two officers on that shift.
“…Hingson obtained a 2009 report written by private detectives the City of Canby had hired to investigate the steroid scandal. Among their findings: Murphy had been demoted from detective to officer for alleged dishonesty…”
Chief GregKroeplin resigned prior to release of a scorching memo outlining the city’s findings they had outsourced properly to two retired Oregon detectives, which would have resulted in his termination.
Murphy, still employed by Canby Police, is apparently looking to renew the agencies stint for bad press.
On October 13, 2011, six months after former Willamette Week journalist James Pitkin featured his Lord of The Flies article outlining Murphy’s internal investigation led to his demotion for dishonestly, he arrested a freelance sports reporter while taking pictures of him exiting the Canby Police Headquarters on duty and entering his personal vehicle.
Andrew Millbrooke filed a Federal lawsuit in 2012 against The City of Canby, Officer James Murphy and his captain Bret Smith for excessive force and wrongful arrest which took place after Murphy used his cruiser to follow Millbrooke who was on foot. In a police report from another officer in the case, Millbrooke tells him he is a freelance journalist trying to expose corruption and drug use by Officer Murphy. The suit is pending. A review of the declarations by both Mr. Smith and Mr. Murphy do not include the details of the investigative report commissioned by The City Of Canby discussing Mr. Murphy’s prior demotion. Mr. Murphy also had a recent court decision regarding improper procedure [See Bonneau].
With pending motions to release the employment files of some Canby police officers to include Murphy, the charges against Traverso were dismissed this past May due the state delaying the case over 23 months.
Traverso, Deason and Jackson are all currently on probation. Traverso is awaiting trial on recent charges involving watermelon theft.
As the Federal Bureau of Investigation is listed as an investigative partner to MCSO in the Kyron Horman investigation, it is their policy not to release files where they are not the lead agency of record or during an ongoing criminal investigation .
Requests for comment from Kaine Horman through his attorney Brett Engel regarding the allegations that he has either purchased or sold illegal steroids have not been returned at the time of this publication.
However, in an article published to include a quote from Kaine Horman it seems that Kaine confirms Ms. Spicher’s assertion that Terri Horman did not use illegal steroids, but rather nutritional supplements and had moved past those very quickly after her bodybuilding competition.
“…Kaine said he noticed a sharp shift in her behavior, saying she became self-centered and short-tempered.
“She’s not eating a lot of food, she’s exercising twice a day, she’s up at 4 o’clock in the morning, she’s not sleeping at night so we get just general irritable behavior towards everyone around her,” he said.
He said she consumed over-the-counter stimulants, such as fat burners, in high doses. In four months between January and April, she shed 62 pounds, dropping from 185 to 123 pounds, he said.
At the end of April, with her muscles bulked up and skin glistening with a bronze tan, she competed in the Emerald Cup bodybuilding competition in Bellevue, Wash…”
S.Christina Stoy, Editor In Chief, www.blinkoncrime.com was able to independently confirm Ms. Spicher’s account of alleged steroid use and ensuing investigation of a gym member as told to her by Terri Horman.
The source, an associate of Terri Horman, DeDe Spicher and Kaine Horman who declined to be identified, went on to say that at the time it was “… really common knowledge who was using steroids and who was selling them…” “… was not aware previously that Terri Horman claimed to have instigated contact with law enforcement to turn in the seller…” The source declined to identify the seller and could not say for certain if he was charged and likely would not away- given the request not to disclose the source’s name on the record.
Reached for comment, Terri Moulton Horman Attorney Stephen Houze declined to comment based on his policy of not speaking publicly when a client has pending legal matters.
A request for comment to Mr. Bunch, Terri Horman’s divorce attorney has not been returned by the time of this publication.
More Questions Than Answers..
Following several hours of interviews with DeDe Spicher, the woman who was not a close friend to Terri Horman but ultimately was the closest to her in the early days of the investigation- are we left with more questions than answers about what could have happened to the little boy whose 11th birthday was 2 days ago?
Spicher concedes that anything she discussed as told to her by Terri Horman in some minor instances may only be verifiable by Horman herself- and she is not talking… Yet.
She also points out that ultimately everything she told me she shared with investigators as far as “truthfulness” was confirmed by a polygraph – to include the question “Was she withholding any information from investigators?”
She was not.
Although limited, Spicher’s accounts in many instances confirm sparse information heard early on from Terri herself. Not the least of which was that although widely criticized for not speaking out publicly, she was told by investigators not to under any circumstances- and when she broached the possibility of retaining counsel was told that she would then be cut off from any information as to the investigation process to find Kyron Horman.
Through Spicher, Horman also confirmed that out of concern for Horman’s “spacieness” which she defined by walking into a room and staring off, not remembering, etc, Terri Horman called his pediatrition Thursday June 3rd and made an appointment for Friday June 11th. His last day of school. Horman also told Spicher that Kyron had wondered off or got lost while in his teacher Ms. Porter’s care once before when following a fellow student out of class.
Initially, prior to learning Kyron had been marked absent not very long after she left the building, that was Horman’s first thought. Those hopes grew into panic with that revelation that he had been missing for hours.
Spicher says Terri was adamant that she never had a sexual relationship with the now infamous landscaper Rudy Sanchez Estrada Spicher agrees that her friend had the propensity to be flirtatious but she never knew her to be sexually promiscuous. Outside of the fact that she says at Kaine’s request to occasionally include an additional female in the bedroom, to which Spicher declined, she was not aware that the Horman’s had a swinger lifestyle.
To her knowledge, there were other women that were asked to participate in a threesome with the couple that did not say no some years ago, but had no current knowledge and she herself was never involved with Horman sexually.
In her take, the addition of a 3rd female was an expression of control on Kaine’s part in the relationship.
Terri explained the landscapers “sexual accosting” , previously reported exclusively by www.blinkoncrime this way:
“… She said she had Kitty on her hip and he came up behind her and was kissing her neck and put his arm around her and when she verbally resisted with concern that Kitty was in her arms he sort of grabbed her and she spun around and broke free…”
Spicher adds that on more than one occasion she tried to bring that up during meetings with DA Norm Frink and investigators. One one occasion, as suggested by her Father, a former Klamath County Marine Officer, at their own expense The Klamath County Sheriff and his first lieutenant had agreed to meet with Frink, Spicher and her father on DeDe’s behalf to sort of provide character backgrounds and family history he felt would be helpful in clearing her.
“… This came up in the first interview I had with Mr Frink and I told him she had made that call. Later in the interview when he was trying to push more of my buttons, he tells me that call never happened (implying Terri had lied to me). I told him okay, that’s what you’re telling me, but I recall it differently (implying he was lying to me right then). He got very angry about that and insisted it was “fact”. I said okay, whatever. Much later, like one of the last times I met with Mr Frink, the Klamath County Sheriff and his 1st Lieutenant flew up on their own dime to meet with Mr Frink & Keith Krafve to see if they could help by offering their opinion of my character, and that it didn’t seem unusual to them at all that I would go help Terri, that it is very consistent with how my family has always been. At that meeting, I retold the story of Rudy sexually accosting Terri (her words), but said I wasn’t sure about the 911 call. That totally infuriated Mr Frink. I told him I was trying to believe him and simply not certain about what I could remember on that point.
The DAs office behaved very strangely toward the Klamath Co Sheriff and his Lt. They tried everything they could to keep us separated and even insisted that they (the DAs office) drive them back to the airport, despite the fine fact that we (Dad & I) had picked them up and brought them in, and would definitely be seeing them again in the near future. It was just weird, to all of us…”
I asked DeDe if she used the term called 911 in every exchange. She had. I asked her if she got the impression that the reason Frink was so sure it never happened was because there was no 911 call on the record about it – could it be that maybe she reached out to that former law enforcement person she contacted on the steroid issue and it was actually a dispatch call versus a trackable 911 call issue.
Spicher says she got the impression that Frink was suggesting that the “accosting” as described by her friend did not happen, but could not be sure except to say that Frink seemed to become irate when she brought it up on every occasion. Spicher felt Sanchez Estrada was the only person behaving like a criminal and that supported the accounts she was given.
I asked DeDe if Terri mentioned ever paying Sanchez Estrada for work at the Horman home. She said she did not recall Terri ever saying anything other than she had no idea what he was talking about when he came to the door and asked for $10,000 so she slammed the door in his face and called 911.
Stoy: So did she think it was some sort of extortion attempt now that she had mentioned him to investigators and they told her that they had interviewed him?
Spicher: She thought that he was dangerous from her past experience.
Stoy: Did you think it was odd that with a brand new John Deere tractor parked outside that TH was hiring a landscaper? I was able to confirm through other sources that he cleared some blackberry or blueberry bushes similar to Ms. Von Klevelen, and the tractor does not have a UCC lien on it, meaning it was not financed.
Spicher: No, it wasn’t. Kaine bought it. It was Terri’s job to manage the inside of the house as well as the entire property. I knew that when Kaine would travel he would come up with this project lists for her to complete by the time he got home. I mean, like cleaning the gutters, cutting the grass, washing all the windows, that sort of thing. To the best of my recollection Terri and Kaine did not have bank accounts together- he controlled everything he made.
Stoy: With a baby, 7 year old and teenager and hubby out of town? How was she managing that? No wonder he was suggesting that she was pouring through money like water or something like that, she was probably hiring help. I am not even sure I think a woman by herself at that property with a baby should be on the roof by herself anyway.
Spicher: No, Terri had to pay any support money or whatever to the household expenses and I have surmised Kaine gave her some sort of allowance which she probably blew through pretty quickly on frivolous things like food and clothes for her children. I have never known Terri to be frivolous with money. I know of at least two times when the projects she was supposed to accomplish were impossible for her to manage. One was the windows so I believe she hired someone that time and as I recall her parents paid for that. I believe the other was the landscaper.
Stoy: Is it a fair question for me to ask how you feel about Kaine, from your tone I am sensing you are not a fan.
Spicher: I have tremendous compassion for Kaine- he lost his child- what can one even say about that? But no, he is not someone I would want to be friends with today and I was cordial to him whenever I was around him but he was very controlling and was pretty mean to Terri about her weight from Kitty, things like that- I am not going to have anything in common with that.
Stoy: Did Terri ever mention anything about conflicts with Desiree Young, whether they were between her and she or Kaine and Desiree?
Spicher: Not that I recall, but I also never heard her speak of Desiree negatively at any time previously or when I stayed with her [Terri].
Stoy: That is saying a lot because right after the sting Ms. Young was pretty accusatory pretty quickly- and I do note that was based on information from law enforcement. Similar to some of the things both she and Kaine said publicly about you. Are you angry about that?
Spicher: O my no. That poor woman is going through hell and acted on information that I was told, lie or not, was given to her and Kaine. I have nothing but compassion for her and I wish I could shoulder some of her pain because I can.. I have nothing but compassion for all of Kyron’s parents and any anger I have over how I was treated, what I went through would never be directed at them. I really pray that Kyron will be found, I choose to put my energy into hope for that.
Pending Matters
Through Attorney Bunch, Terri Horman makes the claim that both law enforcement and Kaine Horman have been perpetrating the dissemination of inaccurate information involving the circumstances of Kyron Horman’s disappearance.
In a recent filing, set for hearing this Friday, Bunch pens a scathing reply to Deputy O’Donnell’s motion to quash, and accuses the county of improper ex parte communication.
Early this afternoon, a source within the Multnomah County Courthouse speaking on the condition of anonymity has confirmed that on behalf of Multnomah County, a motion has been filed to limit certain documents or discoverable information related to Mr. Horman and Bobby O’Donnell of the MCSO.
A hearing is scheduled before Judge Kantor for this Friday September 13, 2013
Jacqueline Beaufort, Ellie Sanders – research and contributing editors to this article.
Jason Mateos- contributing editor, copy.
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Thank you for your notes and input GH. You too, vw!
I was thinking about the calls Terri made the day of the sting. The ones that LE won’t release. Why won’t they release them? Is there something on those calls that would make Terri look innocent? Some say the fact that she made the call in the first place makes her look innocent. Not necessarily, IMO. If she knew she was being targeted, then why not make the call anyway. So what’s on those calls?
They have reported one of the calls was about custody. Did she perhaps say something about Kaine threatening to take her child from her on some earlier occasion? Had she said something like that, would that make her look innocent, while making Kaine look like a cad, or would it give LE a motive? Did they get an aha moment, and say…there ya go, there’s her motivation, we’ve got her now.
“Mark one for the FBI.” What did she mean by that?
Something about those calls and what transpired shortly thereafter, perhaps with a return call from the FBI…..why so important?
Both Kaine & Deisree have been asked numerous times about Terri’s motivation in their suspicion that Terri had something to do with Kyron’s disappearance, and both of them have said “they don’t know”. If KH’s attorney’s are now stating that Terri’s motive was fear of losing Kiara to Kaine, why on earth didn’t Kaine ever mention that before? That information certainly would have made Desiree Young feel a little better and lessen the guilt she said she was feeling in the beginning.
When did this become motive, if not the day of the sting?
What “documents” did RSE give LE? GH’s notes mention something about a calendar. Houze wants whatever they are.
This sounds to me like, Houze knows he can prove that not only was the sting made up of nothing more than LE tactics, but if he had those calls, he could prove their motive sucks. (Sorry, couldn’t think of a better word.)
@VW
Is Kaine at these hearings
CD says
IMO
The way Engels grandstands and states things about TH that are unproven and not even part of the Divorce case tells me that he does not think Kantor is smart enough to see though his misleading statements made only to ruin TH’s reputation. Maybe he is right Kantor does not seem able to control or edit Engels unsubstantiated accusations and innuendo intended only to vilify TH in the public eye. To bad Baby-K could not have drawn a wiser judge.
*********
Engel’s out-of-context statements:
1. “What gets me, is you’re repeating “my client in innocent”
(said prior to “finding” Rudy)
2. “They can get the information about the “meeting’ from their client. She’s the
one pleading the 5th”
(said derisively prior to Kantor’s ruling prohibiting cross of Rudy regarding sting)
3. “BTW….I’ve seen the money. And it’s a LOT in that war chest”
(said prior to the $$$ trial coming now BEFORE the custody is decided)
Is he ADD, and out of the Blue drops these little tidbits to inflame? Or is he/Rackner foreshadowing cleverly? Skirting on santioned behavior in court.
@Malty
Kaine was there this week. Did not show the previous meeting when TMH was there. Did show the first hearing when TMH arrived at the hearing after 3 years of absence.
Interesting you mentioned. Like i’ve said, this all seemed scripted to me. This particular hearing, not the previous 2. I can’t explain precisely why, but it was odd. And, looking back, it may have gone just the way the Houzes and Bunch knew it would. Maybe that is why TMH didn’t come this time?
Grasshopper could attest to the ones before that. She’s seen Kantor in action more than myself.
@Blink. Do you know the Judge’s name
who signed off on the Sting? (Lordie if it
was Meis. or Kantor)
link to doc posted by Bunch in beginning of this article
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/12/terri_moulton_hormans_lawyers.html
snip
The court’s preliminary ruling that Respondent may not fully cross-examine Mr. Sanchez raises significant legal and constitutional issues. If made final, the rule will likely cause irreparable harm to Respondent. The legal issues need to be fully briefed, argued, and decided before the court receives any testimony from Mr. Sanchez.
snip
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/Setover%20Motion-MultCo.pdf
@Malty, Kaine was at the hearing on Monday. missed last one
iboshe version of why the delay of this week’s hearing on temp parenting time
http://www.kgw.com/news/Horman-divorce-hearing-postponed–236421031.html
this week’s hearing removed from court docket
Horman Kaine Andrew */Horman Terri Lynn Moulton MCR 1/2/14 9:00A THXK 544 JUDGE KANTOR 100666084 Trial
Horman Kaine Andrew */Horman Terri Lynn Moulton MCR 1/3/14 9:00A THXK 544 JUDGE KANTOR 100666084 Trial
Bunch’s doc requested that it be after the Jan 2 & 3 but I don’t see a date when.
Rose says:
December 18, 2013 at 5:10 am
__
Thank you Rose. This is just my lay persons opinion and I’ve no doubt you’re more schooled in all of this so be patient.
I do not see how the sting is more objective than an initial conversation between Terri and Rudy brought on organically with no outside influences, ie… LE or the public awareness of the Horman family. I won’t assume for now that Sanchez is lying. It has not been proven or shown to be true.
We do not yet know at what point LE became aware of Sanchez. They could already have been aware of him prior to Terri admitting he exists.
The sting will not show one way or the other that the initial conversation took place exactly how Rudy states it did. The ONLY way to corroborate that would be through Terri which obviously will not happen. The sting will only show how Terri reacted to the landscaper knowing she was being followed and knowing she was a POI in Kyron’s disappearance.
I know that in the criminal case the sting is all encompassing and invaluable however in the civil case and in regards to Kiara’s best interest I think the judge has to weigh it differently.
I do see how the sting is the follow up to an accusation of MFH and I do totally get why Houze wants it entered. I look forward to reading his legal argument on the matter. He will have to do a bang up job using precedential support to get Rudy to testify in civil court as to the sting but I don’t think that angle will work for a variety of reasons, namely that there is probably no similar precedence.
Instead of fighting Rudy’s testimony about his MFH discussion with Terri or fighting to force Rudy to testify as to the sting, Houze may choose now to argure to have LE interviewed about it based on Kaine’s deposition. That will be the longer road but also more effectual to his clients best interests on all counts if LE has botched this as much as it appears they have.
this is from a hallway presser of K’s around the time of the RO renewal in June 2013. the FB page is the one that drives the hater crater crazier.
Kaine Horman:
“I am disappointed that we have not found my son yet. I’m glad
we have strong law enforcement and community involvement in his recovery, and I think we will continue to express ourselves
based on our beliefs that help recover him and bring him home,” Kaine Horman said after Friday’s hearing.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Trashys-Too/1424040414476404
From the link provided by the O, Set-over Motion, linked where it says Her lawyers sought a delay late monday.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/12/terri_moulton_hormans_lawyers.html
(thanks actually to this website for copying it: http://missingpieceofthepuzzle.blogspot.com/)
)
“The court’s preliminary ruling that Respondent may not fully cross-examine Mr. Sanchez raises significant legal and constitutional issues. If made final, the rule will likely cause irreparable harm to Respondent. The legal issues need to be fully briefed, argued, and decided before the court receives any testimony from Mr. Sanchez.”
and
“Requiring Respondent to go forward without the opportunity to cross-examine Mr. Sanchez as to all aspects of his knowledge of alleged events upon which Petitioner is relying to attempt to convince the court to deny parenting time between Respondent and her daughter would violate Respondent’s constitutional rights to due process and would prejudice the opportunity for Respondent to prevail on her motion to reunite with her daughter.”
**************
I agree, whether Terri is guilty or innocent. I’m at a loss how Kantor can try to go around this without throwing the whole RSE testimony out. It’s seems so simple to me, it’s either allowed and allowed to be crossed, or it isn’t allowed at all. How can it be both ways? I just don’t get it. The DA’s office put themselves into this predicament by giving KH information that could not be substantiated. They need to buck up and take the consequences of their actions or arrest Terri Horman for the MFH immediately, so she can have her day and court and get beyond all this BS. IMO, the only party who will suffer any consequences of this testimony is the State. This hearing IS about a little girl who the State separated from her mother, without so much as initiating CPS involvement. This all just makes me pizzed off.
He can’t as I said Monday. It is a violation of the rules of evidence and to require briefs to return in a day or whatever was ridiculous and again, a violation. He was not kidding, he really does think his powers in that robe are “broad”. Like a barn.
B
@Amys Sister. wrt “to protect the investigation”
Protect the investigation of what?
There can be no ongoing investigation of the alleged mfh.
That baby was over with the exculpatory Sting.
If Kantor wants to exclude the 2nd meeting with Rudy (the Sting)
he has to put Rees under oath and ask him, “Is there an going
mfh investigation?” Imo under oath Rees would have to say no.
Why is Rees, a nonParty, representing anything except as a witness
under oath?
This is what makes me crazy and why Houze was brilliant. I will say that lawyers do get a tad of leeway as sworn officers of the court in the sworn testimony area, but I agree.
B
erose says December 18, 2013
@ 4:47am
@ 4:58am
@ 5:03am
****************************
Thanks erose for the great info about GAL.
Appreciate your help!
@ Amy’s Sister. Exculpatory Evidence from the 2nd meeting is objective in character because it was recorded with a wire & there is a transcript. So it’s not he said-she said.
vw says, Of course I do. And that snarky remark about the “war chest” of money TMH has. Both remarks were strategically placed, dripping in sarcasm and meant for a “sound-bite” …. and he got what he wanted, didn’t he?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
oh good. wasn’t just me then. but that is then the very thing Houze objected to, that judge agreed was sanctionable but dismissed. the intonation and words of that remark were definitely adverse implication. so where is the sanction?
It was Kantor effectively saying “cool your heels”, but Houze is not going to let that guide him. If what Engel did is truly sanctionable, then you can bet your Bippy Houze will file a complaint. He ousted a former DA. Hello?
B
Stupid question….How doew ASS fit into this?
Not stupid- we don’t know yet.
B
@Amy’s. Wrt “I look forward to reading his legal argument on the matter. He will have to do a bang up job using precedential support to get Rudy to testify in civil court as to the sting but I don’t think that angle will work for a variety of reasons, namely that there is probably no similar precedence.”
In my opinion all Houze needs is the OR Rules of Evidence.
Of course overkill works.
Kantor’s grandiosity in seizing & staying with this case assignment is reflected in his case mgmt & rulings imo.
Perhaps he wanted this high profile case due to his lack of criminal & family law experience to cure that resume gap for the next Federal vacancy. Kitzhaber after all put out a full-blown press release referring to Moawad’s year on this case when he appointed her to a Salem job. While the US State Senators are the key to federal bench nominations, the OR Gov, US Attorney Chief, OR DOJ, local DA, will all be sought for endorsement. Thank goodness he is leaving a broad path that those who want write decisionmakers can cite to about specific management & rulings when the time comes, imo.
Rose says:
December 18, 2013 at 4:32 am
@Grass. wrt “Mr. Houze no doubt has a reason why he did not choose to comment on statue of limitations.”
Entrapment, on Kantor’s part.
If a Judge wanted that info legitimately, he’d ask his law clerk to look it up for him. Period. Asking attorney on the record was duplicitous imo.
Kantor wanted the criminal attorney On The Record, indirectly acknowledging the mfh as criminal matter subject matter (=exclusion justified). Eye roll. Have I mentioned this Judge is someone’s (maybe his own) “dummy.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
thank you for this. explains a lot. not only could he have asked law clerk to look up, Kantor frequently looks up things on the lap top in front of him. He’ll stop, type, then read aloud what it says. It would have been very easy to look this up. so, as vw suggested, he DID have an agenda. wow. Kantor is a real piece of work. but where does it stop? he seems unaware that he’s overstepped and now there is no oversight whatsoever. to bring up law is irrelevant. it goes on. kiara is growing up with out her mother. a mother is grieving without her daughter.
@Grass.
Are you sure Iboshi wrote it?
Major facts are wrong.
TRuth says, I agree, whether Terri is guilty or innocent. I’m at a loss how Kantor can try to go around this without throwing the whole RSE testimony out. It’s seems so simple to me, it’s either allowed and allowed to be crossed, or it isn’t allowed at all. How can it be both ways? I just don’t get it. The DA’s office put themselves into this predicament by giving KH information that could not be substantiated. They need to buck up and take the consequences of their actions or arrest Terri Horman for the MFH immediately, so she can have her day and court and get beyond all this BS. IMO, the only party who will suffer any consequences of this testimony is the State. This hearing IS about a little girl who the State separated from her mother, without so much as initiating CPS involvement. This all just makes me pizzed off.
He can’t as I said Monday. It is a violation of the rules of evidence and to require briefs to return in a day or whatever was ridiculous and again, a violation. He was not kidding, he really does think his powers in that robe are “broad”. Like a barn.
B
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
to me it seems like the same thing Kantor has done with DA involvement in case. He denied their motion to intervene but allows them to participate. This allows their constant interference which is Kantor’s guiding light but their non-intervention status protects them from discover, the whole point of needing to be a party to the action to participate. He does contradictory things regularly. powers broad as a barn indeed
I have a lawyer pal/colleague that is telling me ( off the record of course) that under Oregon law, based on what was discussed in open court, requires Kantor to motion for a GAL. His asking about the statute for mfh could imply that he has an opinion on the matter.
B
@vw. wrt Engel’s offtopic & derisive statements.
Most Judges see thru this & don’t enjoy,
but trust me there are a lot of them out there.
Say 1/4 the Hol Inn Banquet Room during a CLE presentation.
Imo Clients don’t shop really for attorneys like they’d check
out a plumber or electrician. Just in a pinch go where a friend (or LE)
recommends.
TY for your service, Grass. From your notes pdf:
“Judge: What do you and Woods have to say about this request for info about sanchez? (Judge had previously ruled against DA intervention in case so R is not party in divorce, he has no standing to speak making him immune to discovery yet Judge directly asked his opinion)”
–
Not only that, Judge asked that mole popping her head up on the
front bench team once again! I wonder who runs the Office when both of the 2
section Chiefs are in 1 hearing.
Here is my thesis/opinion of why she is present, but Rees is portrayed as the State’s rep.
Her Section handles ROs & their enforcement. Imo she was more likely than not directly
involved in the drafting of Kaine’s RO & shopping it to Judge Meis PRIOR to the sting. Imo
if sworn misrepresentations are found standing behind either the sting or the RO, she was
more likely than not the involved Section Chief at the time. This is a Nixonian-style cover up in
my opinion. Why else would she be there if not a personal interest in the outcome?
Rose says, @Grass.
Are you sure Iboshi wrote it?
Major facts are wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
which thing? I lose track of what I’ve posted!
@Grass wrt “He denied their motion to intervene but allows them to participate.”
It is my opinion when Kantor is subject to Bar or judicial investigation wrt this & other matters, he believes he can simply say, as in a civil commercial case, that it is a complex & novel set of circumstances & that idea will
protect him from discipline. I disagree really–the issues (ie, Intervention, or not; full cross on the alleged subject matter, or not), are really very straightfordward issues governed by OR Rules of Procedure & OR Rules of Evidence. When a Judge behaves as though neither govern in his Courtroom, all County residents should be concerned. However deep his Developer election warchest may be, I predict retirement will be in his future.
this thing that engel posted
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/hormancourtdocs12162013.pdf
although some of the fax numbers are blacked out a couple remain. this is the same number that was on the iboshi docs that included the RSE subpoena: circuit court trial administrator’s office. I went up there (different floor) at that time and asked questions. the guy had no idea who would have faxd it but it was their number. personally I suspect DA. wonder who did the underlining
@Grass. Houze has to object to every sanctionable statement, or objection is waived.
Rackner sitting there does not aid Engel. Maybe Kaine is paying for the media PR value of her smirks.
@Grass. You might as well get your PI license like Pitkin while you are at it.
If Iboshi would just attribute docs to his sources, like a real journalist takes pride in
& won’t let himself be manipulated, you wouldn’t have to run this down.
FWIW, IMO the freakin’ “warchest” comment was not only out of line, but childishly irresponsible. If we are to put ourselves in the judge’s place, IOW, a jury Engle was trying to convince of something, what the heck was that supposed to prove to us? OMG, Terri has someone(s) who support her?????? WTH?
Mr. Horman long ago out of his own mouth, touted his six figure lawyer expenses (I can go find the quote if you want it). So, what purpose does this serve to enhance his client in front of a judge or jury who are deciding his child’s fate? Nada.
Oh, and btw,( been meaning to bring this up for awhile), speaking of nada, why does it seem everyone thinks that TMH did not speak Spanish? Myself, after looking into her friends and FB comments, I think she may well speak the language. How well, IDK.
***********
Question: So, if Engle can bring up in court who is paying for Terri’s attorneys, then can Houze legally, in court, ask who is paying for Sanchez’s and or Kaine’s?
Tit for tat?
No need. It is in the interrogatories. The Judge knows what is in the marital bounty so to speak. Engel took a soundbite opportunity.
B
@Grass. Oh, possibly his wife gets filing cys for him & faxes them when she is in the MC Courthouse.
http://www.hendersonchamber.com/os/resources/media/2013_10_23_Thalacker_Lex_Mundi_Appointment.pdf
Generous donors to OR Children’s Theatre, their School auction, to be commended.
Rose says:
December 18, 2013 at 11:03 pm
@Grass. You might as well get your PI license like Pitkin while you are at it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
my big problem is that I need to care about something to investigate it. This case seems frighteningly important to me since it affects us all. admittedly I love research and delving into things, but don’t know how far that would go, if I didn’t believe it has huge implications. I can’t help thinking this could be any of us. I also personally fear DA because anybody who cares about this case becomes a target of that office and LE minions.
If you’re sorry, why did you post it? Blink, you’re allowing this kind of thing now?
*****************
vw says:
December 18, 2013 at 2:36 am
Maxine had the tact to not mention the out-of-context $$$ insult to the Moultons. Not Kyle. Jumped right on it. I am so not impressed with that little man. He is still crawling all over Kaine. Bet he likes his abs.
(Sorry…just PO’d at his lack of real reporting vs Maxine’s).
Fair enough, I missed the personal attack on Kyle and Kaine.
Let’s keep it clean and BOC-ish, please VW.
B
Rose says:
December 18, 2013 at 10:12 pm
TY for your service, Grass. From your notes pdf:
“Judge: What do you and Woods have to say about this request for info about sanchez? (Judge had previously ruled against DA intervention in case so R is not party in divorce, he has no standing to speak making him immune to discovery yet Judge directly asked his opinion)”
–
Not only that, Judge asked that mole popping her head up on the
front bench team once again! I wonder who runs the Office when both of the 2
section Chiefs are in 1 hearing.
Here is my thesis/opinion of why she is present, but Rees is portrayed as the State’s rep. Her Section handles ROs & their enforcement. Imo she was more likely than not directly involved in the drafting of Kaine’s RO & shopping it to Judge Meis PRIOR to the sting. Imo if sworn misrepresentations are found standing behind either the sting or the RO, she was more likely than not the involved Section Chief at the time. This is a Nixonian-style cover up in my opinion. Why else would she be there if not a personal interest in the outcome?
—————————————-
IMO, this woman lives in the wrong era. She’s like a marshall from the Old West adding notches to her belt, or a leader of Early American witch hunts. There are certain kinds of cases she appears to be obsessed with, IMO and from my experience, and she is going to “get her ‘man’” no matter what. That’s why they give her these cases. The difficulty in understanding what’s wrong with this approach is that child abuse cases DO deserve to be relentlessly pursued – her success rate has to be very high and her dedication is laudable – but not to the exclusion of the truth, and not when the law has to be misused in some way to create a “win”. I’ve seen her in action. The amount of influence she has on her colleagues cannot be overestimated, again IMO.
I consider it a privilege to be able to follow Houze in these hearings. IMO, he has amazing focus and tenacity, knowledge, and respect for the law – and he knows these people well. (My thanks to our 2 reporters as well.)
The disadvantage the other side has, IMO, is that there are so many of them (if you lump together those in the investigation, the DA/ADA’s, all the attorneys in all the cases we’ve seen so far, even RSE and PPS ), with each being responsible for holding up a card in this “courthouse of cards”. It only takes significantly moving one of those cards for the entire house to fall. Only some of these people know what shaky ground they are on. IMO, once it becomes clear, there will be all sorts of deals proposed by others to get themselves back on solid ground, if possible.
I saw this post on KGW by thatkewlgirl who has been invested in this case from what seems to be the very beginning. Someone commented earlier that they thought she was attacking the bio parents but I think it become more clear if you read what she wrote.
“Sean, I am neither Terri nor family, and laugh out loud at the idea of being her lawyer. In the beginning Terri talked. And talked. And talked. She commented supposedly on KATU and KGW with her well known RDSQRL user name (really transparent there) and what happened? Kyle Iboshi outed her as being her and all she was responding to was why Kaine’s truck was taken out on a flatbed trailer (starter had broken) but according to the armchair detectives it was because there was more to it.
When people questioned the bios, herself and stepdad Tony going to church, she again spoke out that they indeed were all there sitting with and supporting each other. She kept right on talking even AFTER she was served an RO and divorce papers by Kaine and AFTER he took away her baby girl now going on over three and a half years.
They attempted a sting, that failed miserably but yet that lame MFH has continued on to this day and as of two days ago how dare Mr. Houze and Mr. Bunch declare that they should be able to defend their client and address the accusations made by his gardener (who attempted to harm her in front of her daughter in May 2010).
Now we have a judge who is apparently okay with allowing one side to depose this gardener and not the other even though that’s part of the package in the real world and when the judge tried to allow such a thing, Terri’s attorneys stood up for her.
What would you say to the media and the public? That you’re innocent? Okay, she’s done that and with the LE too. Yes, on Dateline in 2010 when Kate Snow addressed the LE about Terri’s comments they responded that she said she had nothing to do with it; that she was innocent. Oh and then Kate attempted to drive the route that Terri drove that day, even though she doesn’t know exactly which way she went and did it in an economical two seater car. Not exactly the same as an extended Ford truck with a fussy baby trying to get down for a nap. And as you’ve said, if she’s innocent then she has nothing to worry about. Then why are you and others requesting she give up her rights?
The 5th amendment is to protect yourself against the government first and foremost because given when it was originally written it happened a lot to the common citizen and there was no repercussion with an over zealous government entity. How many questions do you think they asked her? Five? Twenty? Two hundred? We don’t know that, do we and the way it has played out in court is that one utilizing their rights is despicable and they should be admonished for it. Yet you favor your freedom of speech and would probably be upset if others tried to take that away from you. How is it different?
and when asked WHY she was so invested in this case, her response was:
Seriously, I have a nephew who passed while under the not-so-watchful eye of his Eugene, Oregon school, put on the wrong bus and found later in a railroad car, dead. The school played CYA with that case too and the LE never investigated his death and assumed he just wandered off. I know when push comes to shove that the powers that be will cover their hineys instead of admit that they were wrong and the grief it caused my sister and our family is unimaginable. I see someone who has been wrongfully blamed and because of http://www.kgw.com/news/Horman-divorce-hearing-postponed–236421031.html ”
potent stuff. I’m glad T has her defenders because she certainly has haters.
Just a thought-
The word mugging means to assault with the specific intent to rob-
So therefore RS would not need to use the specific word of mugging to be loosely quoted as saying : make it look like a “mugging” this could have been the word choice of the interpreter or of the lawyer -
he could have said rob or assault… meaning mugged
TRuth is correct terri horman could possibly speak Spanish perhaps not fluently but enough to hire and interact with RS to let him know what the job entailed the pay etc etc… – IIRC De De did say she had a convo with Rudy regarding her dismay over him kissing her neck while she was holding the baby-….
Obviously they could speak well enough and be understood enough to convey points and have more than one meeting
From the depo it seems terri didnt use the exact phrase of “get rid of”, but instead used words to that effect…or hinted toward that…was this due to a language barrier or due to the fact (if RS is believed) that terri was wanting to set up a killing that could pass for a failed robbery/mugging attempt? IDK
Still, terris Lawyers wish to get the second meeting with RS on record (is this the sting?) well IIRC that was said to be a fifteen minute convo…with the DEA guy there too? was he an interpreter, a witness or what-
did terri and RS converse for 15 minutes? I doubt that Terri spoke to him in Sign language..although I do recall her having that particular language as a skill…. and I would assume the convo isnt solely in Spanish…so terri may have spoke some “enough” vis versa for RS
many people take Spanish in high school and can speak “enough”….Casey Anthony had 3 years of Spanish and was teaching caylee to count etc… and RS can speak some English so I think they would have been able to “understand” one another although some words may not have translated….
I dont think any barrier would have led to a huge misunderstanding over a serious MFH plot yet there seems to have been a misunderstanding over boundaries (the accosting and De Des talk of terris flirtatiousness ) so what do I know
A while ago someone posted TH linked profile or her resume…does anyone recall if Spanish was listed as a language, I do believe SL was listed?
AJMO Peace
@grass and rose:
“…. he believes he can simply say, as in a civil commercial case, that it is a complex & novel set of circumstances & that idea will
protect him from discipline. I disagree really–the issues (ie, Intervention, or not; full cross on the alleged subject matter, or not), are really very straightfordward issues governed by OR Rules of Procedure & OR Rules of Evidence. When a Judge behaves as though neither govern in his Courtroom, all County residents should be concerned. However deep his Developer election warchest may be, I predict retirement will be in his future.”
Grass, do you remember Kantor lamenting, so to speak that there was no legal precedent that guides this kind of decision before he made Rees a “party” again and virtuall asked his advice?
Well, as rose says, he is, again, forgetting the rules of evidence and OR statutes. As well as general statutes that support due process in all levels of governement and industry.
He knows, as do we all, that TMH has a RIGHT to know what she is being accused of, that she has a right to access of information that prevents her from being unduly prosecuted.
Kantor knows Engels brought the criminal case into the civil by “finding” depo. That he says that he will let the restaurant meeting be crossed but not the meeting that perhaps provides exculpatory evidence in the civil case is just simply wishy-washy…for want of a better term.
Now, I admit, I have had contact with Kantor on other occasions, In traffic court and many years ago when I taught at an alternative school for a couple years. I have had a soft spot for him and have given him the benefit of the doubt despite his mercurial rulings.
Because I have seen him go out of his way to try to get a fair deal for the little folk and kids that are disenfranchised. When I took those hs students on field trips to the court house, kids that had already in their little lives known first-hand street law but were unfamiliar with the constitution, he finished his trial and then motioned them to the bench. He spent at least an hour preparing them for a mock trial so they would understand the roles they had just witnessed. The kids were so into it that they stayed during through lunch time. And proudly talked on the bus back about how they were the ‘kicking ass as the defence lawyer”. He was very patient with them.
If you look at his resume, it looks as if he did OK. Not Ivy League. Not a shark. Competent. I think he would have made a great teacher. But this case is beyond him. He has some experience in “complicated” cases, and thay is why, I think, he got the case.
But he just is not sharp enough to see the whole picture in this case, (nor does he have the day-to-day history of watching and thinking about this case that BLINKSTERS, etc have), without some more schooling. That is why Houze stopped the other day. Knew Kantor could not picture himself, right then, setting the precedent.
There are no cases to guide this. TMH is in a league of her own. Nothing comes close. So without a legal precedent where does Kantor go? I really don’t think he is going to Rees because he was “bought” by Rees.
I think he just doesn’t know what the right thing to do is.
And when Houze/Bunch are forceful about schooling him, he listens. The weren’t Monday. Don’t know why, but they certainly have time now to, again, explain to him very, very, clearly that the laws in Oregon are going to be violated as well as US constitutional rights.
I looked him up. Kantor doesn’t have that many cases go appellate. I have to believe he will do the right thing and make the right decisions for Kiara.
Kantor may well have Engels number ….. but I think you and I and many have under-rated Engels. He is speaking through LE. Underhill, Rackner, Rees (well, maybe not Underhill) are pretty dang sharp. Fink and Shrunk, especially, were sharks. A lot of planning has gone on to put the onus on TMH and the focus away from a failed investigation….their reputations rest on winning this case.
We really can’t expect them to roll over….can we? Even if it is Kiara’s best interest. They could give a crap about TMH and Kiara’s relationship. They prolly don’t even care that much for cargo-pants.
RE erose says:
December 18, 2013 at 4:47 am
8.085 APPOINTMENT OF COUNSEL FOR CHILDREN
The Court may appoint counsel for children in cases arising under ORS Chapter 107 upon its own motion or upon motion of either party pursuant to ORS 107.425(3), and shall appoint counsel if requested to do so by one or more of the children. A reasonable fee may be imposed by the Court against either or both of the parties or as a cost in the proceedings.
The procedure for appointment of counsel for children in cases arising under ORS Chapters 107-109 shall be as follows:
(1) In its sole discretion, the Court may appoint counsel for the children on its own motion with
PDF Page 55 of 131
Supplementary Local Rules Fourth Judicial District, Circuit Court of the State of Oregon for Multnomah County Effective February 1, 2012 48
or without prior notice to the parties.
(2) A person requesting appointment of counsel for a child or children must petition the Court for an order setting forth the reasons for such request. After reasonable notice to all parties, the person seeking such appointment shall appear and request an Order Appointing Counsel.
(3) The Court will appoint counsel where requested to do so by one or more children.
(4) Orders appointing counsel issued by the Court may contain provision for payment of attorney fees and terms for payment. No Order will be issued until counsel has agreed to accept such appointment upon the fee terms set forth.
(5) To the extent possible, appointed counsel will represent their clients’ legal interests in obtaining a secure, stable home life and a balanced relationship with both parents and will be answerable only to their client and to the Court. The parents or persons having physical custody of the child shall cooperate in allowing counsel opportunity for private consultation with the child or children, including making or assisting with arrangements for the children’s transportation to the attorneys’ office or some other reasonable meeting place and reasonable phone communication if needed.
(6) Counsel to be appointed for children shall meet the Court’s standards for qualification in family law matters and in the resolution of custody/parenting time issues.
courts.oregon.gov/Multnomah/docs/CourtRules/SLR2012Effective… · PDF file
erose says:
December 18, 2013 at 4:58 am
What if I ask the court to give my child a lawyer, but the court does not agree?
You have the right to ask for a lawyer for your child, but the court does not have to appoint one. If this happens in your case, you may:
•Hire a lawyer for your child, or
•Ask Family Services to evaluate your case.
http://ctlawhelp.org/getting-a-lawyer-appointed-for-your-child
erose says:
December 18, 2013 at 5:03 am
This should be a federal children’s rights statute, IMO.
If the court has no concern for the immediate welfare of the children, the parties will be given the opportunity to mediate custody and placement issues before a GAL is appointed. By statutory directive in the state I practice in (Wisconsin), the court must promptly appoint a GAL if mediation fails.
http://www.dadsdivorce.com/articles/how-a-guardian-ad-litem-impacts-your-child-custody-case.html
————-
Thanks for the info-
If what you have written is correct then my understanding is that someone needs to ask for a rep or GAL for the child- from your posts it seems this would be a parent… and then the parent would need to supply testimony or evidence of a sort?
Well then it seems that Kaine would see no need – and terri is choosing to invoke her fifth amendment rights- so perhaps she can not speak to Kiaras best interests in this regard- as from what you wrote- “the parties will be given the opportunity to mediate custody and placement issues before a GAL is appointed” this would mean terri would need to voice her concerns…and she would not want a family services to evaluate her case as how could they evaluate her, as again she is not speaking…and according to her lawyers she is only agreeing to have an expert testify generally to the point that any child would benefit to having visitation with their parent…and again according to her lawyers she is only agreeing to a partial MH evaluation not a thorough evaluation, correct?
So it seems that in this regard it is terris rights to invoke the 5th amendment which may be the barrier in this issue, could this be the reason no one has stepped up to ask for a Gal?
AJMO Peace
Mom3.0- the Judge himself ( referred to as the court) can motion for a GAL, or either parent. In a situation where there is a CPS finding that a GAL should be appointed, it would motion the court as a “party” as well.
The GAL is strictly to protect the best interests of the child- insomuchas there has to be some prevailing reason to presume in the current circumstances an objective advocate is necessary. It has no bearing on whether TMH pleads the 5th because there are no charges pending, and she has never been named a suspect, the FAPA order is null.
It is my personal belief that Kaine motioning for a GAL at this juncture is the same as saying “I cant provide for my child’s best interests independently.” which would be custodial suicide as he has had sole custody for 4 years.
HouzeofBunch needs another lawyer in this case like it needs an ovary. Add to that Houze’s wife is a Family court Judge, who has absolutely ripped CPS a new one and deservedly so, because they yanked a permanent placement adoption in her estimation, based on race.
B
@TRuth, Chalk one up for the same FBI investigating the steroid sting? About that war chest, it’s finally confirmed. The money came from TH’s parents (believe Blink stated so way back). Remember all the innuendo over where TH got all that money. Selling Kyron, drugs, porn, etc.
Off topic, but there is a lot going on in the Portland area that Is quite disturbing.
http://www.kgw.com/home/Teen-forced-into-prostitution-inside-popular-strip-club-236146031.html
http://www.kgw.com/home/Mult-Co-gang-sting-nets-40-arrests-74-guns-235115711.html
http://www.kgw.com/home/Wash-county-tactical-police-conducting-3-dawn-raids-236190011.html
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Police-take-suspect-into-custody-after-chase-from-Vancouver-to-Portland-236432981.html?mobile=y&clmob=y&c=n
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Former-College-lifeguard-arrested-for-sex-abuse-236491021.html?mobile=y&clmob=y&c=n
YW Sammy.
We believe that Kantor has heard that tape, don’t we? This divorce is not going to be a jury trial, is it? Won’t this divorce be this judge deciding everything? On some level, this just seems like semantics. He already knows what LE believes, what conclusions they have drawn from their evidence, and he seems to be in lock step, laws be damned. Even though TH’s lawyers requested the delay, they were given no choice in the matter if they are to properly represent their client. Maybe the overall strategy here is to force, by hook or crook, delay after delay, say for 13 more years.
Ok, I know it’s been discussed and investigated at length here in the past, but did anyone ever confirm that those two missing kids and mom are in fact the wife and children of Rodolfo Sanchez-Estrada?
Who reported them missing? Are they still missing?
I have confirmed that that is not his wife nor children.
B
After looking at Grass’ notes, I’d say the bloviating bluster was the repeated “I have a right to call my witnesses!”
During my brief ancient cps tenure, with most of our unit’s Court cases, you’d have to show up for calendar call & sit there til your case. The juvenile crime defense attorneys I observed were usually outstanding public defenders. The mostly indigent parents got assigned defense attorneys from a “criminal justice act” pool of much lower quality. I remember bloviators, mostly male 40-65. Their saber rattling speech was designed to impress unsophisticated poor parents they were actually doing something, but their assertions such as “I have a right to call my witnesses” (aka I identify with my wounded warrior parent) added nothing on the issues and merits. I wonder what goes through Kaine’s mind when he hears warrior cries not apropo to the issues of law? It is a fair question, Blink, to ask who is paying for this firm, or what reduced fee schedule might have initially been proposed on his behalf & by whom? Why does Engel seem to have the litigating approach of someone who may represent the indigent in family cases? Just my opinion of those CJA attorneys he reminds me of.
@3.0. Judge appointing a GAL in this case would diminish his free-wheeling power trip. I can’t see it.
HofB probably knows from experience the GAL selection pool in this jurisdiction mirrors the
competence of DA Office & MCSO (sorry, CASAs, but I bet GALs are a crap shoot here.) And it would be
out of character for Kaine to surrender the driver’s seat.
@Panda/VW. It is my guess as the father of a son apparently attending PPS (due to online info), Kyle will always identify with Kaine’s loss, and that’s OK. We all identify with case aspects. It is enough to point out his story fact errors as a journalist.
last iboshi story, http://kgwtv.mlnwap.com/article.html#!/10527/46e84e6e8c7df4411c085a958728dbff
errors:
Error 1 ” Investigators said at the time that Terri was the last person to see him.”
Correction: “said…Terri was the last KNOWN person….” (truthful, as of course SZ was UNknown)
Misleading Error 2:
“On Monday, Judge Kantor ruled that Sanchez may not be cross-examined during the hearing.”
“Terri Horman’s lawyers argue the inability to cross-examine Sanchez presents ”
Correction: Cross was not barred as to mtg 1, nor is there an “inability to cross” altogether as his words leave the impression.
The issue is Respondent being barred from deposing RSE about exculpatory Mtg 2 wrt the same subject matter.
Now that I see Kyle has a hot shot lawyer wife, I believe he has access to explanations & coaching to his professional benefit on these matters, and where he gets the content wrong lies in the subjective sphere, perhaps sharing Canzano’s husband’s emotions.
Blink thank you for explaining and for sharing your thoughts on the GAL issue-
If I am understanding you correctly you are stating that you feel the court (the judge) should step up and appoint a GAL for K-
Why would the judge have done this, as the custody issue has just now come before the court since Terri dropped her initial request…
I mean if a parent drops the request then that could mean that the parent does not want to see the child – I mean even a child wishing to see a parent in prison is only allowed if said parent agrees to the visitation right?
Since terris lawyer stated they would fight another day- and only recently brought forth a desire to again attempt visitation or custody coupled with the RO and now with the NCO why would the judge appoint a GAL?
You brought up an interesting point- Terris lawyers need another lawyer about like they need an ovary.. well that is true as if Terri is unable to speak up due to her 5th…then how would it look if the court did appoint a GAL for K but Terri could not speak freely to her concerns nor could she participate fully in any “family services” evaluation etc
So it might be that Teri and her lawyers do not feel getting into the GAL appointment would benefit them in the long run…they seem to be handling well in other ways that secure terris 5th amendment rights
I totally agree Kaine has no need to want a GAl as he believes he is speaking towards the best interests of K and to ask for a GAL would undermine that assurtion…
But Blink- in the same vein again it seems Terri can not speak up and ask for a GAL as she is held back from speaking because of her choice to the 5th…
as how can she stand before the court and speak to her concerns and reasons for asking for a GAL when she can not/will not speak:
(2) A person requesting appointment of counsel for a child or children must petition the Court for an order setting forth the reasons for such request. After reasonable notice to all parties, the person seeking such appointment shall appear and request an Order Appointing Counsel.
Terri recently on Dec 4th sat for a depo- she invoked her 5th amendment right this depo was concerning her financial security and work as well as the fee to lawyers..
she refused to answer any of these seemingly mundane questions so how could she NOT refuse to answer any and all questions concerns of a GAL or the request of one?
.. after Terri refused to answer on Dec 4th, her parents were called forth and they answered that they paid 250000 for the lawyers and they cont to pay for any and all needs of terri and do so without expectation of pay back..
this brings up the issue of the grandparents.
perhaps there should be a away for grandparents to stand up and call for a GAL as to secure their rights to see the child…
also it seems it might be that siblings should be able to step up and ask for a siblings GAl to ensure they get regular visitation to their brother and/or sister-
Not sure if in this case Terri and HOB would want to open that door either though as again, it seems it would/could only lead to Terris invoking the 5th to any concerns of the GAL or any thorough evaluation of family services etc…
She is damned if she does and damned if she doesnt-
Amyssister once stated (pp) the privilege of the 5th does not come with out consequences- perhaps she was correct in that Terris right to invoke has now essentially gagged her in areas where she is desperately wanting to be heard
AJMO Peace
@vw
appreciate the background info on Kantor and your experience with his interest in children learning about the court system. my only experience is this case, and it hasn’t created a good impression in me.
that said, although he has bemoaned the lack of precedent to follow, he can’t seriously believe that terminating the relationship between mother and child without cause other than hearsay is appropriate. He allowed DA to participate, then said there was a law, that it was fudging to allow them to participate without motion to intervene and required them to do that. they did that and he denied it because it would cause problems for them to be party. (make them subject to discovery and ending protection of “investigation”) so he went back to allowing them to participate at his whim even though he had previously said there was law about that. not only does he ask their advice but he follows it and now has ruled at least temporarily that RSE (in court they always refer to him as RS) testimony is acceptable but that T’s team cannot cross examine the relevant parts. He can’t not know this stuff. He can’t not know it’s a mess. It’s not a matter of precedent, it’s straightforward stuff. Yes I think he might have to follow in Meiss path and retire. How can any judge ignore law and expect to be respected or taken seriously?
new addition to the hater crater. fb site called TELL THE TRUTH TERRI “Shame the Devil” I won’t bother with a link, but it’s more of the same and uses her name a number of times.