In the first part of blinkoncrime.com’s exclusive interview with DeDe Spicher, she revealed that after over 3 years of attempting to provide Multnomah County Sheriffs Office as well as Assistant Deputy Attorney Norm Frink with the necessary information they requested to clear her from any suspicion in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Skyline second grader Kyron Horman; she has finally been cleared after passing a polygraph as part of her requirement under an immunity deal that has been sealed with the court. Unofficially cleared, that is.
Spicher and her attorney Chad Stavley, who have since refused all local media requests, would very much like the Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office and current District Attorney Rod Underhill to clear her officially and publicly.
Spicher is adamant that law enforcement never had any reason to question her statements to them from the beginning, has cooperated fully for over three years and recently testified before the grand jury to prove she had nothing to hide. While she would like the public to know that any assertions to the contrary are untrue, and sometimes have been offered maliciously, her desire to speak out about her experience over the last three years is primarily to force investigative resources to review it’s progress- and hopefully adjust in a way to further leads in Kyron’s case.
As was proven not only by her recent polygraph, but also by the verification that no evidence ever existed to support investigator’s theory in the first place, Spicher had no information about anyone’s potential involvement in Kyron’s disappearance, let alone her own.
The continuation of our interview, which provoked some very interesting revelations long felt to be a possibility by many, was confirmed by Ms. Spicher as she says- told to her by Terri Moulton Horman are prompting new possible theories in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Kyron Horman. Two days after Kyron Horman’s eleventh birthday.
Stoy: So, in your estimation then, why do you think that detectives Herron and Kravfe were so sure that you were involved or knew who was.
Spicher: I have thought about this a lot, and I think there were a few reasons. I think because I was advised through a meeting Terri had with a family friend and attorney that she should assume that all of her communication was being monitored by law enforcement and anyone she had contact with. He told her to assume the house was bugged as well as vehicles, etc. I also believe you did an article a while back that pointed out her phone was in Kaine’s name. As this was a day or two after she was served with the restraining order, she was also told that
Stoy (interrupting): You bought a prepaid phone after June 28th and never had one before that? I had read that you or someone else purchased them the day of or the day after Kyron’s disappearance.
Spicher: No. I purchased one prepaid phone, after Terri shared the info from her meeting, in my own name, either June 29th or 30th. I think they were hung up on the fact that I came to her aid with no contact for so long so they just were convinced there had to be.
Stoy: ok, sorry, continue. So you are not saying that LE was suggesting that you were hiding some other number you had and that was how they were alleging that you HAD to have been in contact with Terri or some other person prior to and on June 4th and that escalated your “poi” status in your opinion?
Spicher: They did not say that to me specifically, but what they repeated over and over again, was that Terri and I had to have had some form of communication we were hiding. It never made any sense to me because I knew I only had my cell that I had forever until the end of June, and I knew I had not been in contact with Terri since her 40th birthday party in March. So I would ask- well then I guess that means that you don’t have any contacts you can’t verify from either of us so why am I even in this “interview”?
To my recollection they never shared with me or answered any of my questions in response when something they kept hounding me about seemed absurd and conflicting with their theory.
Stoy: Which was?
Spicher: At first, I think that they really believed I was involved, and at some point I think they were talking more “accessory after the fact” because I got the impression ( although they did not share it with me) that Terri’s cell phone activity that day was nowhere near where I was, and my vehicle never left, nor did I. They would not verify that they located the ceramics/glassware artist [pottery artisan] I told you about and still have not.
Stoy: So in your opinion, you were clearly the linchpin of this case, they [LE] believed you held the key to solving it and/or implicating Terri exclusively at that point, they no longer entertained your involvement per se?
Spicher: I honestly don’t think I could say that I ever believed that they stopped treating me as some sort of suspect. I never felt that way, but yes, absolutely they 100% believe that Terri is responsible and I definitely believed we all had to be interviewed and scrutinized or whatever, but I really thought up until the meeting with Norm Frink that they [LE] would abandon that theory quickly because if they were positive I was the key, and I knew I was not, that would also eliminate Terri, who I did not and do not believe, but have no proof, was involved or knew anything.
Stoy: Right, so if you had nothing, and they felt you were the only nexus, it had to mean that they had no independent evidence of anything or anyone else so they would start in another direction?
Spicher: Right, but every interaction I had with them following and including the request to participate in the sting against her, made me believe they never did. To get back to the why question you asked me- my final thought on that is that they kept pointing out that I was the person to tell everyone not to speak to them without attorneys in the beginning. I would ask like who do you mean, because that would have been my opinion across the board for any situation, but it was definitely based on what was getting out about how they were going about this. I was scared and it turned out it was good reason. I also would point out to them that I did not think that was or should be the basis for suspicion because if it was, it seemed to me that I was told that several staff members at Skyline had hired counsel, and Kaine was the FIRST to have one between he and Terri and I had told her at least a week or so before that she should.
Stoy: Why do you think she did not immediately take your friendly advice? Your Dad was LE, and I presume she knew that. People can say what they want, but I know many members of law enforcement in different jurisdictions and agencies. I have worked with them or contributed analysis to cases with them privately [I cannot and would not ever include that in anything I choose to write on] and I can tell you that I do not know one of them that if they were the focus of a criminal probe or internal investigation they absolutely do not agree to an interview without a representative. In fact, Herron is or was the President of Mulnomah County Police Union or was, if I recall correctly. So to that end, I find that a pretty hypocritical reason for suspicion of anyone.
Spicher: (laughs) Interesting. I am not sure that I knew that. The reason Terri didn’t get an atty before the RO was because she was told by LE that if she did, she wouldn’t be privvy to any of their investigative discoveries, she would be out of the loop in finding Kyron.
Stoy: Have you had a desire or opportunity to review any sort of past events regarding the MCSO, I guess I should add, that involve anyone in this case or investigation you have had contact with?
Spicher: No, do you mean like any other detectives or that sort of thing?
Stoy: Have you ever met with or been interviewed with any other agencies or detectives?
Spicher: I believe I either met or just said hello to the guy you mentioned in that recent article of yours while he was at the house. Both Kaine and Terri were there at the time as well.
Stoy: Bobby O’Donnell?
Spicher: That’s it, yes, him. Why did you ask me if I am aware of any sort of events- should I be?
Stoy: Well, I think that tangentially if I were you I would be considering just about everything as it related to what you have been through, and I am aware of some what I will refer to as “stuff” but what I don’t want to do prior to the completion of our interview process is temper any of your responses with anything I know peripherally if that’s ok with you. If you wish, once I publish the continuation which will have that sort of information, I would invite you to comment on it for the record if you choose- are you ok with that?
Spicher: yes, that’s fine and probably a good idea.
Stoy: back briefly to the “sting request against Terri- On that issue- the request they extended to you outside the presence of your attorney and that they asked you not to tell Chad, as you think back , considering you have had no communication with Horman for over three years did you believe they thought it would work? What did your attorney say when you told him?
Spicher: I can’t and won’t address any conversations I have had with my attorney, but to answer your question as to my opinion, I really don’t know for sure, I knew that I did not, and thought it was really, really odd- that was my first reaction. After more thought, and other conversations, I don’t see how they thought it would work, or why they were still seemingly convinced after I had just passed the poly, etc, Terri was still their suspect and responsible. What is your opinion on it?
Stoy: I think I may reserve my thoughts on that for my piece. Again, not wanting to temper your opinions as we move along here and I think that could happen if I did. Is that ok with you?
Spicher: Sure, thank you.
Stoy: I would like to move on to another subject for discussion. I would just like to confirm for the record that I have never prior to this interview, asked you any questions about your potential knowledge of steroid use by yourself, or by Terri or Kaine Horman. Is that correct?
Spicher: Correct, ok.
Stoy: Did they ask you this?
Spicher: Who is they? You got a lot of pronouns flying around (laughs).
Stoy: Fair point, you’re right. The good news is, as English, or should I say proper English is my second language (laughs) I use an copy editor. Allow me to rephrase please. Did anyone in law enforcement at any time ask you about steroids or other illegal injectable supplements sometimes used in weight training or body building in your interviews in this case?
Spicher: Your question was did they [le] ask me anything about steroids or anything injectable ever?
Stoy: (laughs) now who’s throwing around the pronouns?
Spicher: (laughs) touche’ . I was asked about it very vaguely in the beginning, I told them I had never used them, that I did not believe Terri ever did because she and I had similar views against using them and while we were on different supplement regimens when I was training for a marathon in 2008 I still remembered her to be knowledgeable about legal and effective nutritional supplements. I had no reason to believe she had ever used any kind of steroids. I can’t say conclusively she never did but it would shock me.
Stoy: Why shock you?
Spicher: Because a few years back I recall Terri telling me that Kaine was what she referred to as “juicing” and that his behavior had become very aggressive and well, impatient or overeactive with the kids and she had discussed it with him and he ignored her.
Stoy: So for the record, when you say juicing you are referring to illegal steroids, not my Omega specials I make, correct? That was the only question they ever asked you and did not ask any follow up questions like how long ago, etc, etc. And so would you characterize the way law enforcement asked that question and their reaction to your response as disinterested, or having nothing to do with the case?
Spicher: I was never asked about Kaine’s use of steroids by either detectives or the grand jury. But yes, that is what she told me. I actually had forgotten all about it until she refreshed my recollection when I stayed there with her. To the best of my memory I was asked just what I said, I answered as I just said and was never asked any follow up question nor was it mentioned again to me by law enforcement . I don’t think I ever really understood what they did or did not think in terms of my information was important to the case, but yes, they were disinterested from my perspective as to it was the only time I was ever asked about it over the course of three and a half years and so my assumption is they still are. But that is my assumption.
Stoy: Understood, you are referring to the time you stayed at the Horman home late June 2010 through early July 2010 following Kaine’s service of the restraining order and her exclusive use of the home? Spicher: I am not sure about the exclusive use part, I didn’t really know anything about how that sort of thing worked and I think for some reason I want to say Terri was not allowed to show anyone.
Stoy: Ok. Tell me everything you know about that. But, I would like you to see if you can provide me your recollection from what you were told about steroid use PRIOR to your conversations about it that refreshed your memory. By the way, who else knows about this, if you know.
Spicher: Terri’s attorney Stephen Houze.
Stoy: How would you know that?
Spicher: Because I helped her load them up, what appeared to me to be syringes in a box and deliver it to her attorney’s office, she said, at his request. She also located some cancelled checks for what she said was Kaine’s payment for steroids. I don’t remember who they were made out to but it was not to cash.
Stoy: ok, understood, we will get back to that. I want to try and focus on what she told you those “few years back.” Do you recall what year, even ballpark.
Spicher: I want to say, but can’t be sure, it was after her competition in 2005, and I am tempted to say it was around the time they got married or shortly thereafter- I am just not going to be much help in remembering this if you are asking me to extract what I remembered from then on my own.
Stoy: Nope, that’s what I am asking, your fine, I don’t want to lead you but let me ask you a few things that may help. Do you remember where you were during the conversation.
Spicher: I remember it was either the one and only time I ever had lunch with Terri, or it was during a time she called my cell, Terri had a lot of drama, and so I was in a Home & Garden Show class and I recall I was saying things out loud to let he know I was not free to talk really or respond as she was talking, so I was saying things like… I don’t know, we should probably touch base on that when I am done here, or sounds good that we chat on it later.
Stoy: The brush up the other party is not getting, like that?
Spicher: Yes, she was not getting it and so I was kind of 50% paying attention. It was either during that call or at the lunch. Other than that, I am not remembering the timing so well.
Stoy: But you would say a few years before Kyron went missing so based on that 2007 or 2008? Do you remember if they were married at the time?
Spicher: Again, we were friends for a good number of years but not close friends, I almost felt like if she was calling me or talking to me about it she had no other option at the time.
Stoy: Got it. What did she say
Spicher: She said that Kaine had been aggressive with her and impatient with the children and she attributed that to his “juicing”. She confronted him and she felt he did not listen to her. She told me that she then called a detective and turned in Kaine’s seller. The member at the gym, I used to know the name but I really can’t recall because I was in the early morning crowd and this guy was more afternoon, I presume when they were there or they saw him. I had stopped going to the same gym as them ater the first year or two I met them there.
Stoy: So she called a detective to turn in the seller Kaine was buying steroids from? Wasn’t she concerned about the fact that buying them is also illegal and that Kaine could face charges?
SPicher: She told me that she contacted a detective and said she would be willing to turn over information about someone selling steroids but only if she could do so anonymously and without saying who was buying them, etc.
Stoy: So it was your understanding that she was trying to work out a scenario that would stop Kaine’s use without him ever knowing it was her by turning in that person? Sort of like… she gets approval to remain anonymous, she gives the tip and then one day comes home and says… “Hey honey, guess what I heard at the gym.. you better stop that or you could be arrested for it, etc?
Spicher: Yes, something like that. Except and again, we have discussed it at one or both these occasions, but that did not work out. The detective called her again directly and she was upset that there was further contact. From what I recall, I think that was the tone of what she was telling me.
Stoy: Understood, so you are thinking that it may have been why she was sort of wired about it and not hearing you try to go about your day, but insisting and venting like she was upset by it.
Spicher: Yes, I think so.
Stoy: Do you think she could have called you because your Dad was law enforcement and she might need that sort of advice. I don’t think so because she did not ask for any. So then what? Did Kaine find out?
Spicher: I just remember there was some sort of investigation of the guy, and I really don’t know if Kaine ever found out about it or knows to this day. If the seller or anyone was arrested or anything else at the time I do not remember, that was how much I paid attention to it then until Terri reminded me of it.
Stoy: Ok. Now, why is it that Terri was discussing it with you when you were staying at the house with her in your view?
Spicher: Because after the restraining order was served and I guess she realized where Kaine was headed, it was sort of like- if he was going to badmouth her, in her estimation it was false, but anyway, that Kaine had skeletons in his own closet sort of thing. She told her lawyer [Houze] and she said he instructed her to bring the syringes and the cancelled checks to his office. We did.
Stoy: So was Terri saying that Kaine was using steroids behind her back and she found this or that she knew and was having sort of the same reaction as last time, or she just learned once he was out of the home or what? Was she suggesting this to you like it had something to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: I got the impression she did not know, or at least did not know when the last time he was using them was, but it gets fuzzy for me there because it is my belief up until the time the RO was served, in my opinion she would have tried to protect Kaine from le finding out so I don’t know if she told le, but it would surprise me. Terri was always very family centric. She would protect her family unit, and that is why she did the turning in thing, this would seem the same to me until he made those murder for hire allegations.
Stoy: So did you get the impression from her that she thought that her allegation of Kaine’s steroid use had anything to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: No, not at all.
Stoy: Nothing like, maybe this happened as some sort of retribution against her for turning someone in previously or against Kaine if they thought he was involved because after all she says he was the one buying it back then?
Spicher: No, she told me she had no idea who was responsible for Kyron’s disappearance or why, and the only possibility she came up with after the fact because of his past behavior and the fact that he showed up at her door demanding $10,000 she had no idea what he was talking about, that it was the landscaper. He was the only person acting like a criminal at the time.
Stoy: Have you ever seen a text of hers involving the custody situation after the fact, after the Rudy Sanchez Estrada “sting” and she called police twice that day/evening that ended with “mark 1 for the FBI.”
Spicher: I may have, if I did I don’t remember it specifically.
Stoy: She specifically said the FBI, who has only ever assisted in this case, and who has no jurisdictional presence in Kyron’s case, I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on that.
Spicher: No, I don’t have any idea what she meant.
Is it possible that illegal steroid use or sales and the recent public outing there was an ongoing Federal Investigation with the emphasis on police and gym members that included persons familiar to the Horman’s contributed to the circumstances involving the disappearance of Kyron Horman?
Has it been excluded by having more law enforcement investigating themselves?
Roid Rumors and Boys In Blue.. Coincidence Or Clue?
It is no secret that Oregon has seen it’s share of corruption allegations in recent years. The very public and very disturbing account of it’s Governor Neil Goldschmidt’s involvement with a 14 year old girl earned Willamette Week’s Nigel Jaquiss a Pulitzer in 2005 for breaking the story a year earlier. As a strong argument for the trickle down effect, Goldschmidt’s former driver Bernie Giusto- who became the Multnomah County Sheriff following the debacle, was forced to resign his position when a State agency declared they would be removing his police certifications due to his lack of “moral fitness” outlined in the now infamous Giusto Report. A former Sheriff, Bob Skipper, was then appointed to take his place, but after two attempts could not pass the required certifications. The current Multnomah Sheriff Dan Staton, who has since won an election, was appointed in his place. Several current MCSO officers assigned to Kyron’s case were interviewed for the Giusto report.
In fact, Bobby O’Donnell was the lead investigator in Kyron’s case for the first 18 months who according to his own words in his interview was the unfortunate subject of an allegation involving his own very messy divorce.
MCSO Sgt Brett Ritchie stated in a police interview that O’Donnell was seen waving a gun and threatening his life [Ritchie] after he began dating O’Donnell’s ex wife. Laura O’Donnell was granted a restraining order against him that later became an agreement between the couple.
The lead investigator in the case of a missing child openly threatened a ranking officer and that incident was never investigated outside of Ritchie being told to stay away from O’Donnell. O’Donnell’s deposition and his motion to quash it are the subject of a hearing scheduled for Friday September 13, 2013.
There is no question the agency tasked with the investigation into the disappearance of Kyron Horman has had several and more recent embarrassing entanglements.
In another investigative piece by the Willamette Week, it exposes the egregious overtime paychecks that members of the prosecutors and investigators assigned to Kyron’s case have received during the early months following Kyron’s disappearance.
It is unclear how Multnomah County ever had jurisdiction in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance. According to the Skyline School’s filed safety and response plan, the Portland Police Bureau is the agency of record.
Multnomah County’s former woes might have paled a bit in comparison if only by the difference a year makes to public memory, to that of their fellow neighboring officers in Canby, located in Clackamas County.
After several investigations into the selling and possible use of anabolic steroids a Canby Police officer, which were repeatedly stalled due to his caption tipping other’s off in the alleged ring , Officer Jason Deason was arrested along with Canby Landscape Supply Owner William Traverso, Brian Casey Paul Jackson were arrested. The investigation was believed to be ongoing and Traverso, Deason and Jackson all cut deals for quick prison stints that shocked fellow officers and the public alike. The specifics of which were sealed by the court. It is now known that the Federal Bureau of Investigation continued to require the ongoing cooperation of it’s criminals turned informants to pursue federal indictments against possible targets in law enforcement and members of the bodybuilding set- to include acquaintances of Kaine and Terri Horman.
Presuming the confirmed allegations are true- is it possible that ‘a few years back’ Terri Horman unwittingly set off a state turned Federal investigation into the buying, using and selling of human growth hormone and anabolic steroids? How could this be connected, if it is, to the timing of Kyron’s disappearance even if she had?
“… Jackson, through a plea deal on state charges in 2009 where he admitted to selling anabolic steroids to Canby police officers in uniform, had been working with the FBI on an ongoing investigation when they confronted him with the knowledge that he was found deceptive on a polygraph designed to indicate if Jackson’s participation was far more extensive then he originally admitted to…”
“…Jackson, with his attorney, began cooperating with federal authorities shortly after his arrest. He identified his source for steroids as Vancouver resident Rainbow “Bo” Wild Keepers, 39, a competitive bodybuilder and photographer. Agents ran Keepers’ name in federal databases and discovered that an Arizona man had tipped off the Drug Enforcement Administration years ago that Keepers was his source of steroids. Keepers was never charged…”
On June 3rd, 2010, approximately 24 hours before Kyron Horman’s disappearance, Jackson was arrested on a Federal warrant following a sealed indictment issued the day before after failing a polygraph and refusing to help the FBI further.
Between June 2, 2005 and May 2008, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials B.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
It has since been revealed that the initials BW stand for Bradley Worden. Worden owns a few businesses, all relating to wholesale gym equipment or nutritional products. Worden has never been charged.
Between June 2006 and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials N.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
The identity of the person with initials NW is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and December 2007,: in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule illcontrolled substances, to a person with the initials G.P., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and
841(b)( 1)(E).
The identity of the person with the initials G.P is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule III controlled substances, to a person with the initials S.B., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and 84l(b)(1)(E).
The initials S.B. refer to Steve Beaudoin, a former work associate of Jackson’s and current Oregon State safety officer.
According to assistant U.S. Attorney Jane Shoemaker, Jackson sold Beaudoin at least 50 pills of the steroid Winstrol, an injectable steroid called Deca Durabolin, Sustanon and, in June 2007, 100 pills of Anavar on one to two occasions. Shoemaker also said Jackson sold Beaudoin $500 worth of human growth hormone. Investigators discovered the sales through witness interviews and Jackson’s computer records, Shoemaker said.
From Buff To Puff
In contrast to Jackson, although Traverso also sold to Deason and other members of law enforcement, William ‘Jake’ Traverso, a former competitive bodybuilder and “Mr. Oregon” cooperated extensively with the FBI by identifying other law enforcement officers he sold steroids to, and got a lenient sentence of 15 days in jail, 30 days home detention and 24 months probation, with no federal charges.
In a letter submitted to a Clackamas County judge Monday, FBI Special Agent Christopher Frazier said that Traverso has discussed his drug distribution activities in detail. “The public safety employees identified by Traverso included law enforcement officers, corrections officers, fire and rescue personnel and university public safety officers,” Frazier wrote, “Several spin-off FBI public corruption investigations were initiated as a result of these allegations, and are ongoing.”
Traverso, Deason and Jackson were cooperating with the Feds simultaneously, and in a very public way. Although Deason had been similarly employed by the Canby Police under Chief Greg Kroeplin, at least one of the raids on Traverso- Deason’s client, was by Deason’s Canby fellow officer James Murphy.
John Hingson, Traverso’s attorney and past commentator on the Horman case, sparred with then ADA Norm Frink as well. Hingson unearthed the report that included Murphy had been demoted following Deason’s arrest and his credibility was called into question. Murphy worked the graveyard shift with Deason. The report also revealed that both Deason and Officer James Murphy, who was one of the few to initiate an investigation into Deason’s steroid abuse, were put at risk when they were scheduled to work side by side as the only two officers on that shift.
“…Hingson obtained a 2009 report written by private detectives the City of Canby had hired to investigate the steroid scandal. Among their findings: Murphy had been demoted from detective to officer for alleged dishonesty…”
Chief GregKroeplin resigned prior to release of a scorching memo outlining the city’s findings they had outsourced properly to two retired Oregon detectives, which would have resulted in his termination.
Murphy, still employed by Canby Police, is apparently looking to renew the agencies stint for bad press.
On October 13, 2011, six months after former Willamette Week journalist James Pitkin featured his Lord of The Flies article outlining Murphy’s internal investigation led to his demotion for dishonestly, he arrested a freelance sports reporter while taking pictures of him exiting the Canby Police Headquarters on duty and entering his personal vehicle.
Andrew Millbrooke filed a Federal lawsuit in 2012 against The City of Canby, Officer James Murphy and his captain Bret Smith for excessive force and wrongful arrest which took place after Murphy used his cruiser to follow Millbrooke who was on foot. In a police report from another officer in the case, Millbrooke tells him he is a freelance journalist trying to expose corruption and drug use by Officer Murphy. The suit is pending. A review of the declarations by both Mr. Smith and Mr. Murphy do not include the details of the investigative report commissioned by The City Of Canby discussing Mr. Murphy’s prior demotion. Mr. Murphy also had a recent court decision regarding improper procedure [See Bonneau].
With pending motions to release the employment files of some Canby police officers to include Murphy, the charges against Traverso were dismissed this past May due the state delaying the case over 23 months.
Traverso, Deason and Jackson are all currently on probation. Traverso is awaiting trial on recent charges involving watermelon theft.
As the Federal Bureau of Investigation is listed as an investigative partner to MCSO in the Kyron Horman investigation, it is their policy not to release files where they are not the lead agency of record or during an ongoing criminal investigation .
Requests for comment from Kaine Horman through his attorney Brett Engel regarding the allegations that he has either purchased or sold illegal steroids have not been returned at the time of this publication.
However, in an article published to include a quote from Kaine Horman it seems that Kaine confirms Ms. Spicher’s assertion that Terri Horman did not use illegal steroids, but rather nutritional supplements and had moved past those very quickly after her bodybuilding competition.
“…Kaine said he noticed a sharp shift in her behavior, saying she became self-centered and short-tempered.
“She’s not eating a lot of food, she’s exercising twice a day, she’s up at 4 o’clock in the morning, she’s not sleeping at night so we get just general irritable behavior towards everyone around her,” he said.
He said she consumed over-the-counter stimulants, such as fat burners, in high doses. In four months between January and April, she shed 62 pounds, dropping from 185 to 123 pounds, he said.
At the end of April, with her muscles bulked up and skin glistening with a bronze tan, she competed in the Emerald Cup bodybuilding competition in Bellevue, Wash…”
S.Christina Stoy, Editor In Chief, www.blinkoncrime.com was able to independently confirm Ms. Spicher’s account of alleged steroid use and ensuing investigation of a gym member as told to her by Terri Horman.
The source, an associate of Terri Horman, DeDe Spicher and Kaine Horman who declined to be identified, went on to say that at the time it was “… really common knowledge who was using steroids and who was selling them…” “… was not aware previously that Terri Horman claimed to have instigated contact with law enforcement to turn in the seller…” The source declined to identify the seller and could not say for certain if he was charged and likely would not away- given the request not to disclose the source’s name on the record.
Reached for comment, Terri Moulton Horman Attorney Stephen Houze declined to comment based on his policy of not speaking publicly when a client has pending legal matters.
A request for comment to Mr. Bunch, Terri Horman’s divorce attorney has not been returned by the time of this publication.
More Questions Than Answers..
Following several hours of interviews with DeDe Spicher, the woman who was not a close friend to Terri Horman but ultimately was the closest to her in the early days of the investigation- are we left with more questions than answers about what could have happened to the little boy whose 11th birthday was 2 days ago?
Spicher concedes that anything she discussed as told to her by Terri Horman in some minor instances may only be verifiable by Horman herself- and she is not talking… Yet.
She also points out that ultimately everything she told me she shared with investigators as far as “truthfulness” was confirmed by a polygraph – to include the question “Was she withholding any information from investigators?”
She was not.
Although limited, Spicher’s accounts in many instances confirm sparse information heard early on from Terri herself. Not the least of which was that although widely criticized for not speaking out publicly, she was told by investigators not to under any circumstances- and when she broached the possibility of retaining counsel was told that she would then be cut off from any information as to the investigation process to find Kyron Horman.
Through Spicher, Horman also confirmed that out of concern for Horman’s “spacieness” which she defined by walking into a room and staring off, not remembering, etc, Terri Horman called his pediatrition Thursday June 3rd and made an appointment for Friday June 11th. His last day of school. Horman also told Spicher that Kyron had wondered off or got lost while in his teacher Ms. Porter’s care once before when following a fellow student out of class.
Initially, prior to learning Kyron had been marked absent not very long after she left the building, that was Horman’s first thought. Those hopes grew into panic with that revelation that he had been missing for hours.
Spicher says Terri was adamant that she never had a sexual relationship with the now infamous landscaper Rudy Sanchez Estrada Spicher agrees that her friend had the propensity to be flirtatious but she never knew her to be sexually promiscuous. Outside of the fact that she says at Kaine’s request to occasionally include an additional female in the bedroom, to which Spicher declined, she was not aware that the Horman’s had a swinger lifestyle.
To her knowledge, there were other women that were asked to participate in a threesome with the couple that did not say no some years ago, but had no current knowledge and she herself was never involved with Horman sexually.
In her take, the addition of a 3rd female was an expression of control on Kaine’s part in the relationship.
Terri explained the landscapers “sexual accosting” , previously reported exclusively by www.blinkoncrime this way:
“… She said she had Kitty on her hip and he came up behind her and was kissing her neck and put his arm around her and when she verbally resisted with concern that Kitty was in her arms he sort of grabbed her and she spun around and broke free…”
Spicher adds that on more than one occasion she tried to bring that up during meetings with DA Norm Frink and investigators. One one occasion, as suggested by her Father, a former Klamath County Marine Officer, at their own expense The Klamath County Sheriff and his first lieutenant had agreed to meet with Frink, Spicher and her father on DeDe’s behalf to sort of provide character backgrounds and family history he felt would be helpful in clearing her.
“… This came up in the first interview I had with Mr Frink and I told him she had made that call. Later in the interview when he was trying to push more of my buttons, he tells me that call never happened (implying Terri had lied to me). I told him okay, that’s what you’re telling me, but I recall it differently (implying he was lying to me right then). He got very angry about that and insisted it was “fact”. I said okay, whatever. Much later, like one of the last times I met with Mr Frink, the Klamath County Sheriff and his 1st Lieutenant flew up on their own dime to meet with Mr Frink & Keith Krafve to see if they could help by offering their opinion of my character, and that it didn’t seem unusual to them at all that I would go help Terri, that it is very consistent with how my family has always been. At that meeting, I retold the story of Rudy sexually accosting Terri (her words), but said I wasn’t sure about the 911 call. That totally infuriated Mr Frink. I told him I was trying to believe him and simply not certain about what I could remember on that point.
The DAs office behaved very strangely toward the Klamath Co Sheriff and his Lt. They tried everything they could to keep us separated and even insisted that they (the DAs office) drive them back to the airport, despite the fine fact that we (Dad & I) had picked them up and brought them in, and would definitely be seeing them again in the near future. It was just weird, to all of us…”
I asked DeDe if she used the term called 911 in every exchange. She had. I asked her if she got the impression that the reason Frink was so sure it never happened was because there was no 911 call on the record about it – could it be that maybe she reached out to that former law enforcement person she contacted on the steroid issue and it was actually a dispatch call versus a trackable 911 call issue.
Spicher says she got the impression that Frink was suggesting that the “accosting” as described by her friend did not happen, but could not be sure except to say that Frink seemed to become irate when she brought it up on every occasion. Spicher felt Sanchez Estrada was the only person behaving like a criminal and that supported the accounts she was given.
I asked DeDe if Terri mentioned ever paying Sanchez Estrada for work at the Horman home. She said she did not recall Terri ever saying anything other than she had no idea what he was talking about when he came to the door and asked for $10,000 so she slammed the door in his face and called 911.
Stoy: So did she think it was some sort of extortion attempt now that she had mentioned him to investigators and they told her that they had interviewed him?
Spicher: She thought that he was dangerous from her past experience.
Stoy: Did you think it was odd that with a brand new John Deere tractor parked outside that TH was hiring a landscaper? I was able to confirm through other sources that he cleared some blackberry or blueberry bushes similar to Ms. Von Klevelen, and the tractor does not have a UCC lien on it, meaning it was not financed.
Spicher: No, it wasn’t. Kaine bought it. It was Terri’s job to manage the inside of the house as well as the entire property. I knew that when Kaine would travel he would come up with this project lists for her to complete by the time he got home. I mean, like cleaning the gutters, cutting the grass, washing all the windows, that sort of thing. To the best of my recollection Terri and Kaine did not have bank accounts together- he controlled everything he made.
Stoy: With a baby, 7 year old and teenager and hubby out of town? How was she managing that? No wonder he was suggesting that she was pouring through money like water or something like that, she was probably hiring help. I am not even sure I think a woman by herself at that property with a baby should be on the roof by herself anyway.
Spicher: No, Terri had to pay any support money or whatever to the household expenses and I have surmised Kaine gave her some sort of allowance which she probably blew through pretty quickly on frivolous things like food and clothes for her children. I have never known Terri to be frivolous with money. I know of at least two times when the projects she was supposed to accomplish were impossible for her to manage. One was the windows so I believe she hired someone that time and as I recall her parents paid for that. I believe the other was the landscaper.
Stoy: Is it a fair question for me to ask how you feel about Kaine, from your tone I am sensing you are not a fan.
Spicher: I have tremendous compassion for Kaine- he lost his child- what can one even say about that? But no, he is not someone I would want to be friends with today and I was cordial to him whenever I was around him but he was very controlling and was pretty mean to Terri about her weight from Kitty, things like that- I am not going to have anything in common with that.
Stoy: Did Terri ever mention anything about conflicts with Desiree Young, whether they were between her and she or Kaine and Desiree?
Spicher: Not that I recall, but I also never heard her speak of Desiree negatively at any time previously or when I stayed with her [Terri].
Stoy: That is saying a lot because right after the sting Ms. Young was pretty accusatory pretty quickly- and I do note that was based on information from law enforcement. Similar to some of the things both she and Kaine said publicly about you. Are you angry about that?
Spicher: O my no. That poor woman is going through hell and acted on information that I was told, lie or not, was given to her and Kaine. I have nothing but compassion for her and I wish I could shoulder some of her pain because I can.. I have nothing but compassion for all of Kyron’s parents and any anger I have over how I was treated, what I went through would never be directed at them. I really pray that Kyron will be found, I choose to put my energy into hope for that.
Pending Matters
Through Attorney Bunch, Terri Horman makes the claim that both law enforcement and Kaine Horman have been perpetrating the dissemination of inaccurate information involving the circumstances of Kyron Horman’s disappearance.
In a recent filing, set for hearing this Friday, Bunch pens a scathing reply to Deputy O’Donnell’s motion to quash, and accuses the county of improper ex parte communication.
Early this afternoon, a source within the Multnomah County Courthouse speaking on the condition of anonymity has confirmed that on behalf of Multnomah County, a motion has been filed to limit certain documents or discoverable information related to Mr. Horman and Bobby O’Donnell of the MCSO.
A hearing is scheduled before Judge Kantor for this Friday September 13, 2013
Jacqueline Beaufort, Ellie Sanders – research and contributing editors to this article.
Excellent post, MBS. The analogy of the cards is so true. So far a couple have nearly fallen but have somehow been saved. I.e. Blink’s report about Ms. Matthews and the SZ. And Dede’s report of passing the poly, etc. Somehow these reports, obvious to us, have not become mainstream enough. KGW took down their article in which the reported confirming Dede’s interview with Blink.
Houze says he can prove that TMH was not the last person to see Kyron. And I believe him. I suspect he will put Matthews on the stand.
Regarding Kantor. His “can be heard from time-to-time” comment to Rees after his ruling I think meant
just that. And his ruling to dis-allow intervention he must see in a way we don’t. That the DA’s office can be in court, can talk, but cannot officially “intervene” as in a motion.
About the sting…does anyone know when they first interviewed Rudy? I’m asking because so much happened on a weekend to get that R/O and divorce papers into TMH’s hands by 6pm Monday.
All the legal stuff had to be done, the sting set up, KH convinced of a MFH, etc.
DY and KH were interviewed on Friday by KGW and did not know anything about it…by their tone and their support of TMH on that Morning. Woods and Rackner must have worked all weekend.
That’s what I’m saying, Rose. Whose responsibility is it to present that to the court? IMO, Houze needs to argue for the deposition of LE regarding the MFH and now that Kaine has spoken to the issue the door has been opened for Houze to do so.
If Rules of Evidence are enough then it shouldn’t take long for Houze to present his side persuasively unless Kantor is a crooked as you say but I have not seen enough thus far to agree. IMO there is a process and it’s working itself out.
I’m not denying that Kantor is presenting a lot of hoops to jump through but this is something I’ve seen many judges do for a variety of reasons. It’s why our court system flows like mud.
I want to put the ‘war chest’ comment in context. It was said in response to retirement and savings funds going toward court costs, namely the use of Vien as evaluator, with Terri having to pay nothing for Vien’s service. It would be a concern of anyone in Kaine’s position. The comment had a purpose and Engel was not just being cheeky and dropping the line for no reason:
“In related action, psychologist Edward Vien has been appointed to investigate Kaine and Terri Horman as to the “character, family relations and past conduct” of each parent for the purpose of protecting Kiara’s best interests. The cost of Vien’s evaluation will be paid through the couple’s marital funds. Kaine Horman will “liquidate sufficient stock” to pay the upfront cost, but his attorney Monday suggested that he will seek more money from Terri Horman.
“I now know how much money they have in their war chest,” Engel said in court. “It’s a lot of money.”
@Rose – fwiw – IMO if a GAL is ever appointed for K, CW will have a say, if not THE say (behind the scenes) on who it is, within the choices available, of course. Not that the person wouldn’t attempt to do a good job, but would be expected to do it through the same lens. In my case, there was an attorney appointed for the baby. She (the attorney) and all the others on the case made subtle comments off the record to each other when I was around, particularly about her approach to the parental issues, but they were VERY careful either not to disagree or about how they questioned any points in her presence. Times she sent an assistant to represent her (scheduling conflicts), there was a different air in family court. I didn’t understand what it was until the case ended and I saw the outcome.
I still believe her insistence on handling both the family court and criminal court sides of this particular case negatively impacted the outcome by zeroing in on only her (firmly stated) view of the case and inability to negotiate or plea bargain in the face of obviously mitigating circumstances seen and discussed by everyone else, including the judge. Still IMO. I was told being the ADA in the same case in both family court and criminal court was unusual and saw how surprised some workers were, but I don’t know if that is true – some said they’d never heard of it before.
My guess is she has done this many times whether by direct intervention or “advising”. Again, my guess is that technically she is right some of the time, but not 100%. My guess is also that “some of the time” is acceptable to this crowd considering the seriousness of the situations they deal with. I understand that. But I don’t accept it as right or fair. And I’m wondering now if this case will come back to bite her in the influence department.
Terri may have learned enough “Spanish” to converse with Sanchez a little. What we have to remember, and why I put Spanish in quotes, is that the Spanish language in Mexico is not the same Spanish spoken in Spain. It is instead a combination of Spanish and Indian dialects mixed with some English. This is true of the language throughout Central and South America except where Portuguese is spoken.
In Texas it is known as “Tex-mex”. There is probably another name used in Oregon.
I have never believed that the MFH sting was anything other that a means for LE to play CYA. The court needs to throw this entire concept out of the picture.
Panda says:
December 19, 2013 at 12:46 am
If you’re sorry, why did you post it? Blink, you’re allowing this kind of thing now?
*****************
vw says:
December 18, 2013 at 2:36 am
Maxine had the tact to not mention the out-of-context $$$ insult to the Moultons. Not Kyle. Jumped right on it. I am so not impressed with that little man. He is still crawling all over Kaine. Bet he likes his abs.
(Sorry…just PO’d at his lack of real reporting vs Maxine’s).
Fair enough, I missed the personal attack on Kyle and Kaine.
Let’s keep it clean and BOC-ish, please VW.
B
========
Yes. Too harsh. I will avoid the hater-esque language.
grasshopper says:
December 18, 2013 at 4:32 pm
this is from a hallway presser of K’s around the time of the RO renewal in June 2013. the FB page is the one that drives the hater crater crazier.
Kaine Horman:
“I am disappointed that we have not found my son yet. I’m glad
we have strong law enforcement and community involvement in his recovery, and I think we will continue to express ourselves
based on our beliefs that help recover him and bring him home,” Kaine Horman said after Friday’s hearing.
T. Ruth says:
December 18, 2013 at 11:15 pm
(snipped)
Question: So, if Engle can bring up in court who is paying for Terri’s attorneys, then can Houze legally, in court, ask who is paying for Sanchez’s and or Kaine’s?
Tit for tat?
No need. It is in the interrogatories. The Judge knows what is in the marital bounty so to speak. Engel took a soundbite opportunity.
B
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@Blink, I’m wondering about Sanchez, who is paying his legal fees?
Since Engle brought up Terri’s, does that make it fair game for HouzeofBunches to bring that up and ask specifically who is paying RSE’s fees?
What is this? http://whotalking.com/facebook/kyron+horman
“Jess S Petche : Timeline Photos We listened to your requests for an update in the Kyron Horman investigation, watch Nancy Grace: America’s Missing tonight at 9 PM ET for the very latest. 6 hours ago – View – “
I preface this by saying I’m no legal beagle for sure and I just go by what feels right or wrong, just or unjust. (Learning a lot just from the last 3 years.) So, here’s what I think, AMOO,
Kantor may well be a super-nice upstanding guy…..and TRYING to the right thing, but…….I think he also is paid by Multnomah County. The man knows who butters his bread. Herein, for me is the problem with this whole case. He himself says the DA should not be involved in this dissolution. IMO he is right in that regard, as none of them ever even bothered to initiate a CPS investigation into the child’s welfare. (How could that even be possible knowing the history of her own uncle? )
However, he keeps turning to the DA and asking if things should be permissible in court or not, such as RSE full deposition. If he were being a fair and impartial judge in the dissolution, as far as custody of the Horman’s daughter goes, then by golly, since he already said the DA has no business being in this hearing, he would not be asking or allowing the State’s opinion in this matter. So, IMO, he is asking the for DA’s opinion in this Temporary Custody Case, not to determine the benefit of a child, (as everyone noted her name wasn’t used much during the proceedings), but what he’s asking the DA, what effect will RSE’s testimony and following cross examination it have on the STATE of OREGON, his employer? (Did not they make mention of the State’s attorney at the last hearing? That would be Carlo Calandriello, who last I remember said something about not having had the time to go through the 5000 tips in the 60 plus binders or whatever it was, to make any kind of statement in this matter.) WTH? Stall, stall stall. Why? Money…….money, money, money. (Oh shoot, I feel an earworm coming on, somebody stop me. )
Kantor is also in between a rock and hard place. Perhaps he was the only judge who would take the case? Someone here long ago suggested that, sorry I can’t remember who, but I think they may be right. Perhaps what we all were considering to be judge picking, was judge self-eliminating. I hate to say this, because of the time that would be involved in ever rejoining a mother and daughter, but, this case may have to go to a court outside the Great State of Oregon. (And I live here. Sigh.)
I hope this can resolved here sooner than later. Then one way or another we can get back to putting the emphasis on finding Kyron. Isn’t he 11 now?
@erose. wrt ” Won’t this divorce be this judge deciding everything? ”
If anyone thinks this Judge’s ruling will be based solely on the record
before him, there goes the xxx bridge for sale, imo…..
@mbs. wrt ” – IMO if a GAL is ever appointed for K, CW
will have a say, if not THE say (behind the scenes)
on who it is, within the choices available, of course.”
that’s what I thought. I feel
this is a small town (family Court)
system with professional role confusion.
imo MC GALs are as dependent on CW
working them in to assignments,
as reimbursed (for the indigent)
family defense attorneys are.
@mbs. I have thought(imo) for some time CW, supervisor of HM, & associate on the Child Abuse Team
of Kafvre ( or was it gossen?) & O’Donnell, was the lynchpin, or linkage, of both the Sting & the RO.
Perhaps she was inadequately supervised as Shrunk & Frink were easing out.
@Amys Sister. wrt “IMO, Houze needs to argue for the deposition of LE regarding the MFH”
Competent attorney will cross effectively the witness Plaintiff brings in. Plaintiff brought in RS-E.
Not try to introduce a barred (LE) witness.
@Amys Sister wrt “Kantor is a crooked as you say”
I have never said Kantor is crooked.
Imo grandiose, a maverick, inexperienced in family/criminal,
aspiring to federal bench.
But I have no doubt he is unctiously ethical.
@ T Ruth: Regarding Sanchez’s attorney and who is paying for him… I don’t think it would be appropriate to ask because he is not party to this suit. Engle addressed the issue because the Horman’s have shared resources that need to be divided and this case will be costing a lot of money.
Kaine knowing how much money Terri has and from whence it came matters to this litigation. It is completely normal in terms of divorce, especially in a community property state.
grasshopper says:
December 18, 2013 at 4:32 pm
this is from a hallway presser of K’s around the time of the RO renewal in June 2013. the FB page is the one that drives the hater crater crazier.
Kaine Horman:
“I am disappointed that we have not found my son yet. I’m glad
we have strong law enforcement and community involvement in his recovery, and I think we will continue to express ourselves
based on our beliefs that help recover him and bring him home,” Kaine Horman said after Friday’s hearing.
ME: In my opinion, Trashy (and all of her various permutations) takes hate to a whole new level.
This case seems to bring out the worst in some people. Ugh.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Totally agree.
B
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Thank you, Blink. Maybe it’s the approach of the holidays, idk. Just thinking of all the families who are deeply affected by Kyron’s disappearance, and how awfully difficult the holidays must be for them. How does one find joy in the season when one’s beloved child/grandchild/brother/nephew is missing and possibly deceased? And, how does one find joy when one hasn’t seen or touched her little girl in so long?
Wouldn’t it be so wonderful if all the hating could be put aside – if only for the season – and all could focus on sending up prayers and positive energy for Kyron and his siblings: Kiara, Quinn, and James?
Hopefully, 2014 will be the year Kyron is found and returned to his loving family, and Kiara is reunited with her mother.
@TRuth, Judge self-elimination, LOL. Maybe he missed the meeting and he was elected. You know, never miss a meeting, or sure as chit, you’ll find you’ve been voted the chairperson of some committee upon your return. On the serious side, if I were this judge and not sure of my rulings, I would surround myself with other more knowledgeable judges and pick their brain. I think asking the DA for guidance is okay, as long as he asks BofH for the same information. Two sides, he has to be able to see them both, and answer to Baby K. JMO.
I’m hearing here that Kantor should have immediately stricken RSE testimony or immediately decided to allow the sting information to come in. That’s not realistic IMO. Normal custody and visitation decisions almost always have delays and in this case, which is far from normal, this might be the first of several. Kantor did not have the information to make a fair decision and he needs the two attorneys to be vested enough to present him with that information and argue the finer points of it. It’s such a rare circumstance that any less would be a disservice to the court and even Houze said as much.
I’m hearing that some of you believe Kantor is covering for LE… that they know Terri is very possibly innocent but can’t allow that information out so they will just keep making her life hell and cause delays indefinitely.
While it’s possible he has been convinced of Terri’s guilt by the DA so he’s being very careful to protect Kiara, I have enormous doubts that Kantor is making his decisions only to protect a corrupt investigation. He did, after all, allow Houze to depose school staff and supported this litigation in the first place. IMO, Kantor’s intention is to keep this clean as possible but still allow it to proceed so Terri’s life is not on hold indefinitely.
I am with all of you that Terri’s rights need to be protected and I am glad she has Houze in her corner, especially if she’s innocent.
My God, if she is, the sham of what Portland has made of our judicial system should be unveiled for all to see so we can prevent that from happening in the future and if that ends up making convictions even more difficult on LE then LE has no one to blame but themselves.
being a tool a ventriloquist speaks his interests through (say a politician, politucal group, DA, whoever, idk) which I believe I called a “dummy” (not meaning dumb) does not mean I believe JK is crooked. It woulf be my guess JK takes an overweening pride in his ethics. I believe CW also sees herself that way and intends to perform that way, imo.
@TRuth. Even in the event a CPS investigation were initiated, the DA could not be involved unless after an initial investigation the complaint met the hurdle of being “founded” by cps according to its agency regulatory criteria. If on this interdisciplinary team the DA’s office has involved itself before that internal DHS hurdle of an initial finding has been met, to me that’s a management problem & inappropriately intrusive of the DA’s Office into OR families.
Both parents suing Marva are right–unreasonable delays controlled by the Judge amount to a denial of due process. (ie in HofB, 10 days to set an Emergency Hrg; more briefs, imo to avoid an appealable decision)
The key was to get the case to Federal Court in NY, as she has done, and which HofB will eventually have to do in OR.
The case shows the jeopardy of having an idiosyncratic GAL who can get her back up with mother and sweep away professional recommendations, giving the Judge an alternative to evaluator’s recommendation.
Apparently there was a Court-ordered home study on both parents performed by DHS, in part stating while the 9 yo liked Father, she wished to reside with Mother. GAL came in, swept aside the DHS study, and voila Mother has every other weekend. Shows the challenge of a Father’s socio-political-financial circle. I have to wonder just what role “Intel legal” took at his solicitation.
Marva seems to either be a part of that circle, or have personal issues. An attorney missing deadlines adversely impacting clients gets bar discipline. Judges need same. Apparently in this NY Circuit they stick together.
Imagine saying Mother’s appeals, apparently necessary, a defense to delay.
@Amys Sister. Twas not “immediate.” JK had 10 days after both prior Motions, sitting back scratching his head, with the aid of his law clerk to research, to prepare his decision. Attorneys argued a matter of law; he’s supposed to know it or look it up (but not googke it from the Bench as an observor suggested.!He gave himself 10 days for an “Emergency” which was wholly unnecssary and one JK constructed himself in the first place by prior flawed rulings. imo.
I’ve been thinking about the GAL and CPS angle and I think it’s a moot point considering where we are now. Vien is in, both attorney’s are nearing the end, and as Blink said, neither side will benefit from one so neither parent will request it. Why Terri didn’t request it years ago puzzles me but if she didn’t then she certainly won’t now.
IMO Kantor won’t because there have been no accusations that Kitty is neglected or abused and what he needs he will get from Vien.
MOO, CPS many times just muddles a case more than they help. Talk about corrupt, if ever there was a corrupt system that is it, IMO. I honor the work they do and individually workers do, for the most part, genuinely care about their work but so many times the bad eggs are able to get away with thoroughly messing up the lives of families because the system of checks and balances is virtually non existent or not enforced.
@Erose & TRuth. The judicial assignmdnt to this case was the Sole responsibility of the Section Chief McKnight, who is an apparently devoted sincere child advocate although examples are given by some litigants on line tgat she too is erratic or flakey.
Therefore I absolutely do not think, given her character, she would have assigned a Judge with zero family court experience (nor criminal) to this complex family case without overbearing pressure of some kind applied– emotional/or friendship/or political–and CW comes to mind–as well as the Judge in question waving his hand, prompted by friend Meisenheimer, saying Choose Me, Choose Me. imo.
What would the consequences be for a Mother barred from seeing her daughter for 4 formative years, based on an employee in the course of their employment for MCSO, or Mult Cty, who knowingly presented “probable cause” evidence which was fundamentally flawed or untruthful to a Judge for the Sting, the RO, or both? Who drafted those docs, or was apprised of both as a supervisor? CW? BO’D? Whose idea? Actually, this is a suit needing to be brought eventually in Federal Court as a civil rights matter on behalf of minor Kiara. The reason TH needs custody in order to retain say Jacob.
Flawed is one thing- it is likely still to be considered good faith, depending on whether or not it was signed via magistrate or Judge who had signed multiple warrants I presume. That said, this “sting” was aided by the FBI and a DEA agent- yet we know that the warrant could not have been Federal.
You get caught using false information on a search & seizure bid, it is a career ender if proven and the basis for a fat civil remedy. Which, btw, the city would foot the bill for in part.
From the beginning I have tried to imagine what a suit like that would “look like” in this case. What’s the price tag for intentional inflictions and alienations of this magnitude? It is why I maintain that ultimately, in some form, this will be a legislative case.
B
Rose says: @Amys Sister. wrt “IMO, Houze needs to argue for the deposition of LE regarding the MFH”
Competent attorney will cross effectively the witness Plaintiff brings in. Plaintiff brought in RS-E.
Not try to introduce a barred (LE) witness.
_____
Could be right, Rose. Would be the easier and shortest route to temporary visitation assuming Kantor allows the cross. Engle might effectively argue that the first conversation can stand alone so there is some risk.
Still, whatever happened at the sting was at the behest of LE and Kaine was sure to say the information he got about the MFH was directly from LE partially lifting that bar. It’s a path Houze will likely have to take because Kyron’s disappearance was also brought in as an issue by Kaine and I have no doubt will be again (following what will likely be another delay after the attorneys submit their arguments regarding permanent placement of Kitty). I’m not really sure it can be ignored.
I only wonder how Houze would accomplish it if he does decide to make the attempt. As fascinated as I am I would rather see this whole thing break open with an arrest of whomever took Kyron. To heck with the tango, let’s move on to finding the little dude.
I find it surprising that TH’s attorneys needed the extra time to brief the constitutional issues involved in support of their emergency motion; I would have thought they would have already expected RS’s testimony and been prepared for an attack that actually contained case law support, etc. — everyone here knew it was coming. The court issued its order limiting the scope of discovery on September 16, 2013; KH’s attorneys issued a subpoena for RS on October 3, 2013; the deposition of RS was conducted November 11, 2013 with TH’s criminal attorney in attendance (her family law attorney was not present). It should have been no shock to TH’s attorneys that KH’s attorneys referenced excerpts of RS’s deposition in their response to TH’s motion for parenting time, which was filed December 3, 2013. However, the emergency motion filed two days later by TH’s attorneys contained not a single reference to statute, rule of evidence, specific constitutional protection or supporting case law. It was their motion and their burden; it did not provide the Court (or the record) with a lot to work with in the subsequent hearing. Was the dearth of legal support the result of not expecting what we all saw coming, the scarcity of legal support for the emergency motion, or something else?
“I am with all of you that Terri’s rights need to be protected and I am glad she has Houze in her corner, especially if she’s innocent.
My God, if she is, the sham of what Portland has made of our judicial system should be unveiled for all to see so we can prevent that from happening in the future and if that ends up making convictions even more difficult on LE then LE has no one to blame but themselves.”
@Amys Sister. Kaine has put custody at issue & will not share.
With a Real Judge, therefore, he pays.
________
That makes sense though a very expensive evaluation was done of both parties in a case I’m aware of and the expense was shared by both the with holding party and the party seeking custody/visitation so I’m not sure that’s a hard and fast rule.
Amy’s Sister quotes
“The cost of Vien’s evaluation will be paid through the couple’s marital funds. ”
Remember that T is entitled to half the marital assets, so she is paying half. It is easy to forget this because K has had exclusive use of for 3 and a half years but half is T’s>
“I am disappointed that we have not found my son yet. I’m glad
we have strong law enforcement and community involvement in his recovery, and I think we will continue to express ourselves
based on our beliefs that help recover him and bring him home,” Kaine Horman said after Friday’s hearing.
~~~~~~~~~~~
the point of this remark of KAINE’S is that he believes LE approach and the community involvement of stalking and hate should continue and will be effective in “recovering” Kyron.
Does everyone know that the Kyron Horman Foundation is listed as Search and Recovery Services?
B
Amys Sister says:
December 19, 2013 at 3:52 pm
I want to put the ‘war chest’ comment in context. It was said in response to retirement and savings funds going toward court costs, namely the use of Vien as evaluator, with Terri having to pay nothing for Vien’s service. It would be a concern of anyone in Kaine’s position. The comment had a purpose and Engel was not just being cheeky and dropping the line for no reason:
The cost of Vien’s evaluation will be paid through the couple’s marital funds.
———-
IMO
Are not the marital funds monies that will be divided between T and K when the divorce is concluded. So if the monies being used to pay vein belong to both K and T’s equally then she is paying her share.
I believe that that is why Kantor set it up that way. Why should T’s eval come out of her parents funds. They may be paying for her lawyer but I doubt that they liquidated all of their retirement funds and put them in a checking account for T’s use.
I think the Warchest comment by Engel was ridiculous.
Rose says:
December 20, 2013 at 6:31 am
“. . . pride in his ethics. I believe CW also sees herself that way and intends to perform that way, imo.”
———————————-
Absolutely. That was one of the points I was trying to make. Not only, IMO, does she see herself and intend to perform that way, but I believe her colleagues see her that way as well. I believe that’s what makes it so hard for anyone, including herself, to question anything she supports – and what makes Houze such an important player in this case (well, set of cases, I guess you’d say).
It’s the age old question: “Does the end justify the means?” I think once you cross over that line, it’s very, very hard to step back.
I think it’s very sad because not only does it (IMO) give (as a result of her work) some people a raw deal they didn’t deserve, but it also essentially removes what could be a powerful opponent of evil from the pursuit of justice in some cases that really need her help if she didn’t snap her jaws shut so quickly.
Blink – I mean no disrespect to CW. If you feel what I said was inappropriate, please feel free to change the wording. I believe it’s fair to examine how she works and the level of her influence because in my mind, she plays a key role in the pursuit of TH.
@Amys. wrt “MOO, CPS many times just muddles a case more than they help. ”
In my area, as well as apparently that NY case, Judges order Dept Family Services to do home studies wrt custody and it may be assigned to a cps worker.
I don’t think TH requested a GAL because it seems anyone on the Mult. Co. payroll believes the DA is working on a case against her. KH is not requesting one because for him, things are as they should be wrt Baby K. That leaves the judge to appoint one, and I guess for TH it may be good that the judge does not.
I haven’t forgotten. I do see this as another interesting twist… Terri has been gifted a lot of money by her parents to support her needs and her court costs.
How does the court now weigh that in terms of ‘income’ and ‘assets’? How will the court decide how much of the monies, if any, will go to Kaine for child support of Kitty for the last three years?
I give sighs for Kantor every once in a while. This is a heavy load.
I guess I see a ‘predetermined outcome’ as corruption. I’m not saying it’s definitively not happening. I’m just not ready to call it that yet especially with Houze at the helm. Pretty risky venture for all involved if it is.
I will say this. LE better have a very good reason/s for allowing the public to believe Terri is guilty. And they better be real close to coming out with it or, as my Daddy said, heads will roll.
I don’t think TH requested a GAL because it seems anyone on the Mult. Co. payroll believes the DA is working on a case against her. KH is not requesting one because for him, things are as they should be wrt Baby K. That leaves the judge to appoint one, and I guess for TH it may be good that the judge does not.
—-
So she doesnt speak up and ask for a GAL to look over the best interests of her baby/child because everyone believes in the case of the DA?
_____
erose, Isnt that the reason why so many feel she should ask for a GAL especially when she had a better chance in the beginning when K was a babe under her care who had been removed recently?
Now she has no relationship with Kitty and can not speak to her likes and dislikes or anything- she IMO has made it easier for Kitty to remain in the sole custody of Kaine as she did not ask for a GAl she dropped her request for visitation and custody until rfecently and still know agrees to only partial cooperation on MH evaluations etc…
IMO it doesnt look good
————
RE Amys Sis-
I’ve been thinking about the GAL and CPS angle and I think it’s a moot point considering where we are now. Vien is in, both attorney’s are nearing the end, and as Blink said, neither side will benefit from one so neither parent will request it.
—-But the reason to ask for a GAL would be for the benefit of Kitty not either side-
You:
Why Terri didn’t request it years ago puzzles me but if she didn’t then she certainly won’t now.
—She didnt years ago because she dropped her request for visitation and custody-
I am puzzled to why you are puzzled Amyssister, she would have had to speak up to ask for a GAL and she would have needed to voice each of her concerns and submit to be ing evaluated by a family services agent- not just kaine would have been subjected to questions and evals- and since we now know Terri still will not submit and invokes the 5th how can she ever and now stand up to ask for a GAL?
and I agree Kantor won’t because there have been no accusations that Kitty is neglected or abused and what he needs he will get from Vien.
and adding
if the court (judge) asks for a GAL then that would again put terri in the position of NOT being able to participate/cooperate fully with the sole person specifically appointed to protect “the best interests of ” her child- How would that look?
- as you said the judge feels all will be sorted out in regular proceedings with the parties own attorneys on these custody matters so why introduce a GAL when there is no neglect abuse
So IMO terri and her lawyers will never seek the interference of a GAl- that would again put the spotlight on her inability to cooperate.
as for Kaine- why would he ask for a GAL- he has custody he has a protection order in place to make sure terri has no contact with Kitty- as he believes it would be at the detriment of his child- why would he ask for an appointment of a GAL- it would be counterproductive to his assertions that he is working in the best interests of Kitty how could it not be seen that way when again he has sole custody w
hile /TH no visitation rights?
this is from a hallway presser of K’s around the time of the RO renewal in June 2013. the FB page is the one that drives the hater crater crazier.
Kaine Horman:
“I am disappointed that we have not found my son yet. I’m glad
we have strong law enforcement and community involvement in his recovery, and I think we will continue to express ourselves
based on our beliefs that help recover him and bring him home,” Kaine Horman said after Friday’s hearing.
“I am disappointed that we have not found my son yet. I’m glad
we have strong law enforcement and community involvement in his recovery, and I think we will continue to express ourselves
based on our beliefs that help recover him and bring him home,” Kaine Horman said after Friday’s hearing.
~~~~~~~~~~~
the point of this remark of KAINE’S is that he believes LE approach and the community involvement of stalking and hate should continue and will be effective in “recovering” Kyron.
Does everyone know that the Kyron Horman Foundation is listed as Search and Recovery Services?
B
—-
I do not think that what kaine was saying is that he believes that those who harass TH or involve themselves in hate speech are beneficial to recovering Kyron-
I think it is fair to say that he is thankful for the support of the community and of LE in their continuing efforts to recover Kyron- but not to go so far to say that he is condoning the behaviors of those who are involved in the crater- I find it sad that these few would tout kaines words as a call to arms- they are already content to spur Desirees poor emotional state to ill conceived actions in the guise of “support” Kaine has not been a part of that …
so to use this quote as a pat on the back to the crater by the crater etc is wrong, unfair and misleading.
Blink I dont understand, you are not saying that you believe kaine is condoning the hater crater harassment under the umbrella of this foundation are you?
AJMO Peace
Strictly referring to the status of the foundation, Mom3.0
B
for those of you out of towers who wonder what the heck goes on with this city, here’s another questionable hire.
“The former head of Oregon’s Psychiatric Security Review Board, who resigned while under investigation, is now working for Portland police, responsible for their compliance with federally mandated reforms.”
Blink says, Does everyone know that the Kyron Horman Foundation is listed as Search and Recovery Services?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
seems to have changed. originally it was something like help find a missing child, then (I think to get the tax exempt status) it became assist families of missing children. so now it’s search and recovery? like SAR? how does that relate to booths at the largest garage sale and Kyron’s run, the ubermarathon, that auto race? does he have a crew of SAR? or does he donate to them. last financial statement (old) doesn’t suggest they are doing anything but collecting money, and even then I suspect most cash is not declared. I suppose in kind (like donating booth space etc) doesn’t need to be declared.
I would say I would like to stay factual on the issue, but the truth is, there has been a great deal of back and forth between the foundation and the IRS, and to date, I don’t even know for sure multiple public status’s about this endeavor.
@MBS , Grass, rose
Excellent post, MBS. The analogy of the cards is so true. So far a couple have nearly fallen but have somehow been saved. I.e. Blink’s report about Ms. Matthews and the SZ. And Dede’s report of passing the poly, etc. Somehow these reports, obvious to us, have not become mainstream enough. KGW took down their article in which the reported confirming Dede’s interview with Blink.
Houze says he can prove that TMH was not the last person to see Kyron. And I believe him. I suspect he will put Matthews on the stand.
Regarding Kantor. His “can be heard from time-to-time” comment to Rees after his ruling I think meant
just that. And his ruling to dis-allow intervention he must see in a way we don’t. That the DA’s office can be in court, can talk, but cannot officially “intervene” as in a motion.
About the sting…does anyone know when they first interviewed Rudy? I’m asking because so much happened on a weekend to get that R/O and divorce papers into TMH’s hands by 6pm Monday.
All the legal stuff had to be done, the sting set up, KH convinced of a MFH, etc.
DY and KH were interviewed on Friday by KGW and did not know anything about it…by their tone and their support of TMH on that Morning. Woods and Rackner must have worked all weekend.
Rose says:
December 18, 2013 at 6:51 pm
_______
That’s what I’m saying, Rose. Whose responsibility is it to present that to the court? IMO, Houze needs to argue for the deposition of LE regarding the MFH and now that Kaine has spoken to the issue the door has been opened for Houze to do so.
If Rules of Evidence are enough then it shouldn’t take long for Houze to present his side persuasively unless Kantor is a crooked as you say but I have not seen enough thus far to agree. IMO there is a process and it’s working itself out.
I’m not denying that Kantor is presenting a lot of hoops to jump through but this is something I’ve seen many judges do for a variety of reasons. It’s why our court system flows like mud.
I want to put the ‘war chest’ comment in context. It was said in response to retirement and savings funds going toward court costs, namely the use of Vien as evaluator, with Terri having to pay nothing for Vien’s service. It would be a concern of anyone in Kaine’s position. The comment had a purpose and Engel was not just being cheeky and dropping the line for no reason:
“In related action, psychologist Edward Vien has been appointed to investigate Kaine and Terri Horman as to the “character, family relations and past conduct” of each parent for the purpose of protecting Kiara’s best interests. The cost of Vien’s evaluation will be paid through the couple’s marital funds. Kaine Horman will “liquidate sufficient stock” to pay the upfront cost, but his attorney Monday suggested that he will seek more money from Terri Horman.
“I now know how much money they have in their war chest,” Engel said in court. “It’s a lot of money.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/12/post_389.html
@Rose – fwiw – IMO if a GAL is ever appointed for K, CW will have a say, if not THE say (behind the scenes) on who it is, within the choices available, of course. Not that the person wouldn’t attempt to do a good job, but would be expected to do it through the same lens. In my case, there was an attorney appointed for the baby. She (the attorney) and all the others on the case made subtle comments off the record to each other when I was around, particularly about her approach to the parental issues, but they were VERY careful either not to disagree or about how they questioned any points in her presence. Times she sent an assistant to represent her (scheduling conflicts), there was a different air in family court. I didn’t understand what it was until the case ended and I saw the outcome.
I still believe her insistence on handling both the family court and criminal court sides of this particular case negatively impacted the outcome by zeroing in on only her (firmly stated) view of the case and inability to negotiate or plea bargain in the face of obviously mitigating circumstances seen and discussed by everyone else, including the judge. Still IMO. I was told being the ADA in the same case in both family court and criminal court was unusual and saw how surprised some workers were, but I don’t know if that is true – some said they’d never heard of it before.
My guess is she has done this many times whether by direct intervention or “advising”. Again, my guess is that technically she is right some of the time, but not 100%. My guess is also that “some of the time” is acceptable to this crowd considering the seriousness of the situations they deal with. I understand that. But I don’t accept it as right or fair. And I’m wondering now if this case will come back to bite her in the influence department.
Terri may have learned enough “Spanish” to converse with Sanchez a little. What we have to remember, and why I put Spanish in quotes, is that the Spanish language in Mexico is not the same Spanish spoken in Spain. It is instead a combination of Spanish and Indian dialects mixed with some English. This is true of the language throughout Central and South America except where Portuguese is spoken.
In Texas it is known as “Tex-mex”. There is probably another name used in Oregon.
I have never believed that the MFH sting was anything other that a means for LE to play CYA. The court needs to throw this entire concept out of the picture.
Thanks Blink!
Panda says:
December 19, 2013 at 12:46 am
If you’re sorry, why did you post it? Blink, you’re allowing this kind of thing now?
*****************
vw says:
December 18, 2013 at 2:36 am
Maxine had the tact to not mention the out-of-context $$$ insult to the Moultons. Not Kyle. Jumped right on it. I am so not impressed with that little man. He is still crawling all over Kaine. Bet he likes his abs.
(Sorry…just PO’d at his lack of real reporting vs Maxine’s).
Fair enough, I missed the personal attack on Kyle and Kaine.
Let’s keep it clean and BOC-ish, please VW.
B
========
Yes. Too harsh. I will avoid the hater-esque language.
Thank you VW
B
I can’t imagine the head of the RO Section letting a FAPA go null
if there was any way to defend it. My opinion.
grasshopper says:
December 18, 2013 at 4:32 pm
this is from a hallway presser of K’s around the time of the RO renewal in June 2013. the FB page is the one that drives the hater crater crazier.
Kaine Horman:
“I am disappointed that we have not found my son yet. I’m glad
we have strong law enforcement and community involvement in his recovery, and I think we will continue to express ourselves
based on our beliefs that help recover him and bring him home,” Kaine Horman said after Friday’s hearing.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Trashys-Too/1424040414476404
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In my opinion, Trashy (and all of her various permutations) takes hate to a whole new level.
This case seems to bring out the worst in some people. Ugh.
Totally agree.
B
T. Ruth says:
December 18, 2013 at 11:15 pm
(snipped)
Question: So, if Engle can bring up in court who is paying for Terri’s attorneys, then can Houze legally, in court, ask who is paying for Sanchez’s and or Kaine’s?
Tit for tat?
No need. It is in the interrogatories. The Judge knows what is in the marital bounty so to speak. Engel took a soundbite opportunity.
B
**********************
@Blink, I’m wondering about Sanchez, who is paying his legal fees?
Since Engle brought up Terri’s, does that make it fair game for HouzeofBunches to bring that up and ask specifically who is paying RSE’s fees?
What is this? http://whotalking.com/facebook/kyron+horman
“Jess S Petche : Timeline Photos We listened to your requests for an update in the Kyron Horman investigation, watch Nancy Grace: America’s Missing tonight at 9 PM ET for the very latest. 6 hours ago – View – “
@vw says:
December 19, 2013 at 1:44 am
I preface this by saying I’m no legal beagle for sure and I just go by what feels right or wrong, just or unjust. (Learning a lot just from the last 3 years.) So, here’s what I think, AMOO,
Kantor may well be a super-nice upstanding guy…..and TRYING to the right thing, but…….I think he also is paid by Multnomah County. The man knows who butters his bread. Herein, for me is the problem with this whole case. He himself says the DA should not be involved in this dissolution. IMO he is right in that regard, as none of them ever even bothered to initiate a CPS investigation into the child’s welfare. (How could that even be possible knowing the history of her own uncle? )
However, he keeps turning to the DA and asking if things should be permissible in court or not, such as RSE full deposition. If he were being a fair and impartial judge in the dissolution, as far as custody of the Horman’s daughter goes, then by golly, since he already said the DA has no business being in this hearing, he would not be asking or allowing the State’s opinion in this matter. So, IMO, he is asking the for DA’s opinion in this Temporary Custody Case, not to determine the benefit of a child, (as everyone noted her name wasn’t used much during the proceedings), but what he’s asking the DA, what effect will RSE’s testimony and following cross examination it have on the STATE of OREGON, his employer? (Did not they make mention of the State’s attorney at the last hearing? That would be Carlo Calandriello, who last I remember said something about not having had the time to go through the 5000 tips in the 60 plus binders or whatever it was, to make any kind of statement in this matter.) WTH? Stall, stall stall. Why? Money…….money, money, money. (Oh shoot, I feel an earworm coming on, somebody stop me. )
Kantor is also in between a rock and hard place. Perhaps he was the only judge who would take the case? Someone here long ago suggested that, sorry I can’t remember who, but I think they may be right. Perhaps what we all were considering to be judge picking, was judge self-eliminating. I hate to say this, because of the time that would be involved in ever rejoining a mother and daughter, but, this case may have to go to a court outside the Great State of Oregon. (And I live here. Sigh.)
I hope this can resolved here sooner than later. Then one way or another we can get back to putting the emphasis on finding Kyron. Isn’t he 11 now?
@MBS I was just WAITING for you to opine on CW & the GAL thing.
Nothing like your years of observation.
@erose. wrt ” Won’t this divorce be this judge deciding everything? ”
If anyone thinks this Judge’s ruling will be based solely on the record
before him, there goes the xxx bridge for sale, imo…..
@mbs. wrt ” – IMO if a GAL is ever appointed for K, CW
will have a say, if not THE say (behind the scenes)
on who it is, within the choices available, of course.”
that’s what I thought. I feel
this is a small town (family Court)
system with professional role confusion.
imo MC GALs are as dependent on CW
working them in to assignments,
as reimbursed (for the indigent)
family defense attorneys are.
@mbs. I have thought(imo) for some time CW, supervisor of HM, & associate on the Child Abuse Team
of Kafvre ( or was it gossen?) & O’Donnell, was the lynchpin, or linkage, of both the Sting & the RO.
Perhaps she was inadequately supervised as Shrunk & Frink were easing out.
@Amys Sister. Kaine has put custody at issue & will not share.
With a Real Judge, therefore, he pays.
@Amys Sister. wrt “IMO, Houze needs to argue for the deposition of LE regarding the MFH”
Competent attorney will cross effectively the witness Plaintiff brings in. Plaintiff brought in RS-E.
Not try to introduce a barred (LE) witness.
@Amys Sister wrt “Kantor is a crooked as you say”
I have never said Kantor is crooked.
Imo grandiose, a maverick, inexperienced in family/criminal,
aspiring to federal bench.
But I have no doubt he is unctiously ethical.
@ T Ruth: Regarding Sanchez’s attorney and who is paying for him… I don’t think it would be appropriate to ask because he is not party to this suit. Engle addressed the issue because the Horman’s have shared resources that need to be divided and this case will be costing a lot of money.
Kaine knowing how much money Terri has and from whence it came matters to this litigation. It is completely normal in terms of divorce, especially in a community property state.
GraceintheHills says:
December 19, 2013 at 9:39 pm
grasshopper says:
December 18, 2013 at 4:32 pm
this is from a hallway presser of K’s around the time of the RO renewal in June 2013. the FB page is the one that drives the hater crater crazier.
Kaine Horman:
“I am disappointed that we have not found my son yet. I’m glad
we have strong law enforcement and community involvement in his recovery, and I think we will continue to express ourselves
based on our beliefs that help recover him and bring him home,” Kaine Horman said after Friday’s hearing.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Trashys-Too/1424040414476404
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ME: In my opinion, Trashy (and all of her various permutations) takes hate to a whole new level.
This case seems to bring out the worst in some people. Ugh.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Totally agree.
B
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you, Blink. Maybe it’s the approach of the holidays, idk. Just thinking of all the families who are deeply affected by Kyron’s disappearance, and how awfully difficult the holidays must be for them. How does one find joy in the season when one’s beloved child/grandchild/brother/nephew is missing and possibly deceased? And, how does one find joy when one hasn’t seen or touched her little girl in so long?
Wouldn’t it be so wonderful if all the hating could be put aside – if only for the season – and all could focus on sending up prayers and positive energy for Kyron and his siblings: Kiara, Quinn, and James?
Hopefully, 2014 will be the year Kyron is found and returned to his loving family, and Kiara is reunited with her mother.
@TRuth, Judge self-elimination, LOL. Maybe he missed the meeting and he was elected. You know, never miss a meeting, or sure as chit, you’ll find you’ve been voted the chairperson of some committee upon your return. On the serious side, if I were this judge and not sure of my rulings, I would surround myself with other more knowledgeable judges and pick their brain. I think asking the DA for guidance is okay, as long as he asks BofH for the same information. Two sides, he has to be able to see them both, and answer to Baby K. JMO.
T. Ruth says:
December 20, 2013 at 12:22 am
I’m hearing here that Kantor should have immediately stricken RSE testimony or immediately decided to allow the sting information to come in. That’s not realistic IMO. Normal custody and visitation decisions almost always have delays and in this case, which is far from normal, this might be the first of several. Kantor did not have the information to make a fair decision and he needs the two attorneys to be vested enough to present him with that information and argue the finer points of it. It’s such a rare circumstance that any less would be a disservice to the court and even Houze said as much.
I’m hearing that some of you believe Kantor is covering for LE… that they know Terri is very possibly innocent but can’t allow that information out so they will just keep making her life hell and cause delays indefinitely.
While it’s possible he has been convinced of Terri’s guilt by the DA so he’s being very careful to protect Kiara, I have enormous doubts that Kantor is making his decisions only to protect a corrupt investigation. He did, after all, allow Houze to depose school staff and supported this litigation in the first place. IMO, Kantor’s intention is to keep this clean as possible but still allow it to proceed so Terri’s life is not on hold indefinitely.
I am with all of you that Terri’s rights need to be protected and I am glad she has Houze in her corner, especially if she’s innocent.
My God, if she is, the sham of what Portland has made of our judicial system should be unveiled for all to see so we can prevent that from happening in the future and if that ends up making convictions even more difficult on LE then LE has no one to blame but themselves.
being a tool a ventriloquist speaks his interests through (say a politician, politucal group, DA, whoever, idk) which I believe I called a “dummy” (not meaning dumb) does not mean I believe JK is crooked. It woulf be my guess JK takes an overweening pride in his ethics. I believe CW also sees herself that way and intends to perform that way, imo.
@TRuth. Even in the event a CPS investigation were initiated, the DA could not be involved unless after an initial investigation the complaint met the hurdle of being “founded” by cps according to its agency regulatory criteria. If on this interdisciplinary team the DA’s office has involved itself before that internal DHS hurdle of an initial finding has been met, to me that’s a management problem & inappropriately intrusive of the DA’s Office into OR families.
TY for this interesting article, erose.
http://nypost.com/2013/12/02/mom-sues-judge-over-3-year-custody-battle/
Both parents suing Marva are right–unreasonable delays controlled by the Judge amount to a denial of due process. (ie in HofB, 10 days to set an Emergency Hrg; more briefs, imo to avoid an appealable decision)
The key was to get the case to Federal Court in NY, as she has done, and which HofB will eventually have to do in OR.
The case shows the jeopardy of having an idiosyncratic GAL who can get her back up with mother and sweep away professional recommendations, giving the Judge an alternative to evaluator’s recommendation.
Apparently there was a Court-ordered home study on both parents performed by DHS, in part stating while the 9 yo liked Father, she wished to reside with Mother. GAL came in, swept aside the DHS study, and voila Mother has every other weekend. Shows the challenge of a Father’s socio-political-financial circle. I have to wonder just what role “Intel legal” took at his solicitation.
Marva seems to either be a part of that circle, or have personal issues. An attorney missing deadlines adversely impacting clients gets bar discipline. Judges need same. Apparently in this NY Circuit they stick together.
Imagine saying Mother’s appeals, apparently necessary, a defense to delay.
@Amys Sister. Twas not “immediate.” JK had 10 days after both prior Motions, sitting back scratching his head, with the aid of his law clerk to research, to prepare his decision. Attorneys argued a matter of law; he’s supposed to know it or look it up (but not googke it from the Bench as an observor suggested.!He gave himself 10 days for an “Emergency” which was wholly unnecssary and one JK constructed himself in the first place by prior flawed rulings. imo.
So was there a N Grace
spot on Kyron as a random
FB poster said last nite?
I’ve been thinking about the GAL and CPS angle and I think it’s a moot point considering where we are now. Vien is in, both attorney’s are nearing the end, and as Blink said, neither side will benefit from one so neither parent will request it. Why Terri didn’t request it years ago puzzles me but if she didn’t then she certainly won’t now.
IMO Kantor won’t because there have been no accusations that Kitty is neglected or abused and what he needs he will get from Vien.
MOO, CPS many times just muddles a case more than they help. Talk about corrupt, if ever there was a corrupt system that is it, IMO. I honor the work they do and individually workers do, for the most part, genuinely care about their work but so many times the bad eggs are able to get away with thoroughly messing up the lives of families because the system of checks and balances is virtually non existent or not enforced.
@Erose & TRuth. The judicial assignmdnt to this case was the Sole responsibility of the Section Chief McKnight, who is an apparently devoted sincere child advocate although examples are given by some litigants on line tgat she too is erratic or flakey.
Therefore I absolutely do not think, given her character, she would have assigned a Judge with zero family court experience (nor criminal) to this complex family case without overbearing pressure of some kind applied– emotional/or friendship/or political–and CW comes to mind–as well as the Judge in question waving his hand, prompted by friend Meisenheimer, saying Choose Me, Choose Me. imo.
What would the consequences be for a Mother barred from seeing her daughter for 4 formative years, based on an employee in the course of their employment for MCSO, or Mult Cty, who knowingly presented “probable cause” evidence which was fundamentally flawed or untruthful to a Judge for the Sting, the RO, or both? Who drafted those docs, or was apprised of both as a supervisor? CW? BO’D? Whose idea? Actually, this is a suit needing to be brought eventually in Federal Court as a civil rights matter on behalf of minor Kiara. The reason TH needs custody in order to retain say Jacob.
Flawed is one thing- it is likely still to be considered good faith, depending on whether or not it was signed via magistrate or Judge who had signed multiple warrants I presume. That said, this “sting” was aided by the FBI and a DEA agent- yet we know that the warrant could not have been Federal.
You get caught using false information on a search & seizure bid, it is a career ender if proven and the basis for a fat civil remedy. Which, btw, the city would foot the bill for in part.
From the beginning I have tried to imagine what a suit like that would “look like” in this case. What’s the price tag for intentional inflictions and alienations of this magnitude? It is why I maintain that ultimately, in some form, this will be a legislative case.
B
Rose says: @Amys Sister. wrt “IMO, Houze needs to argue for the deposition of LE regarding the MFH”
Competent attorney will cross effectively the witness Plaintiff brings in. Plaintiff brought in RS-E.
Not try to introduce a barred (LE) witness.
_____
Could be right, Rose. Would be the easier and shortest route to temporary visitation assuming Kantor allows the cross. Engle might effectively argue that the first conversation can stand alone so there is some risk.
Still, whatever happened at the sting was at the behest of LE and Kaine was sure to say the information he got about the MFH was directly from LE partially lifting that bar. It’s a path Houze will likely have to take because Kyron’s disappearance was also brought in as an issue by Kaine and I have no doubt will be again (following what will likely be another delay after the attorneys submit their arguments regarding permanent placement of Kitty). I’m not really sure it can be ignored.
I only wonder how Houze would accomplish it if he does decide to make the attempt. As fascinated as I am I would rather see this whole thing break open with an arrest of whomever took Kyron. To heck with the tango, let’s move on to finding the little dude.
I find it surprising that TH’s attorneys needed the extra time to brief the constitutional issues involved in support of their emergency motion; I would have thought they would have already expected RS’s testimony and been prepared for an attack that actually contained case law support, etc. — everyone here knew it was coming. The court issued its order limiting the scope of discovery on September 16, 2013; KH’s attorneys issued a subpoena for RS on October 3, 2013; the deposition of RS was conducted November 11, 2013 with TH’s criminal attorney in attendance (her family law attorney was not present). It should have been no shock to TH’s attorneys that KH’s attorneys referenced excerpts of RS’s deposition in their response to TH’s motion for parenting time, which was filed December 3, 2013. However, the emergency motion filed two days later by TH’s attorneys contained not a single reference to statute, rule of evidence, specific constitutional protection or supporting case law. It was their motion and their burden; it did not provide the Court (or the record) with a lot to work with in the subsequent hearing. Was the dearth of legal support the result of not expecting what we all saw coming, the scarcity of legal support for the emergency motion, or something else?
Amy’s Sister Says:
“I am with all of you that Terri’s rights need to be protected and I am glad she has Houze in her corner, especially if she’s innocent.
My God, if she is, the sham of what Portland has made of our judicial system should be unveiled for all to see so we can prevent that from happening in the future and if that ends up making convictions even more difficult on LE then LE has no one to blame but themselves.”
———-
Exactly!!
Rose says:
December 20, 2013 at 1:08 am
@Amys Sister. Kaine has put custody at issue & will not share.
With a Real Judge, therefore, he pays.
________
That makes sense though a very expensive evaluation was done of both parties in a case I’m aware of and the expense was shared by both the with holding party and the party seeking custody/visitation so I’m not sure that’s a hard and fast rule.
Amy’s Sister quotes
“The cost of Vien’s evaluation will be paid through the couple’s marital funds. ”
Remember that T is entitled to half the marital assets, so she is paying half. It is easy to forget this because K has had exclusive use of for 3 and a half years but half is T’s>
@Graceinthehills
“I am disappointed that we have not found my son yet. I’m glad
we have strong law enforcement and community involvement in his recovery, and I think we will continue to express ourselves
based on our beliefs that help recover him and bring him home,” Kaine Horman said after Friday’s hearing.
~~~~~~~~~~~
the point of this remark of KAINE’S is that he believes LE approach and the community involvement of stalking and hate should continue and will be effective in “recovering” Kyron.
Does everyone know that the Kyron Horman Foundation is listed as Search and Recovery Services?
B
Amys Sister says:
December 19, 2013 at 3:52 pm
I want to put the ‘war chest’ comment in context. It was said in response to retirement and savings funds going toward court costs, namely the use of Vien as evaluator, with Terri having to pay nothing for Vien’s service. It would be a concern of anyone in Kaine’s position. The comment had a purpose and Engel was not just being cheeky and dropping the line for no reason:
The cost of Vien’s evaluation will be paid through the couple’s marital funds.
———-
IMO
Are not the marital funds monies that will be divided between T and K when the divorce is concluded. So if the monies being used to pay vein belong to both K and T’s equally then she is paying her share.
I believe that that is why Kantor set it up that way. Why should T’s eval come out of her parents funds. They may be paying for her lawyer but I doubt that they liquidated all of their retirement funds and put them in a checking account for T’s use.
I think the Warchest comment by Engel was ridiculous.
Rose says:
December 20, 2013 at 6:31 am
“. . . pride in his ethics. I believe CW also sees herself that way and intends to perform that way, imo.”
———————————-
Absolutely. That was one of the points I was trying to make. Not only, IMO, does she see herself and intend to perform that way, but I believe her colleagues see her that way as well. I believe that’s what makes it so hard for anyone, including herself, to question anything she supports – and what makes Houze such an important player in this case (well, set of cases, I guess you’d say).
It’s the age old question: “Does the end justify the means?” I think once you cross over that line, it’s very, very hard to step back.
I think it’s very sad because not only does it (IMO) give (as a result of her work) some people a raw deal they didn’t deserve, but it also essentially removes what could be a powerful opponent of evil from the pursuit of justice in some cases that really need her help if she didn’t snap her jaws shut so quickly.
Blink – I mean no disrespect to CW. If you feel what I said was inappropriate, please feel free to change the wording. I believe it’s fair to examine how she works and the level of her influence because in my mind, she plays a key role in the pursuit of TH.
@Rose, Exactly, a predetermined outcome. It’s all semantics.
@Amys. wrt “MOO, CPS many times just muddles a case more than they help. ”
In my area, as well as apparently that NY case, Judges order Dept Family Services to do home studies wrt custody and it may be assigned to a cps worker.
I don’t think TH requested a GAL because it seems anyone on the Mult. Co. payroll believes the DA is working on a case against her. KH is not requesting one because for him, things are as they should be wrt Baby K. That leaves the judge to appoint one, and I guess for TH it may be good that the judge does not.
I should say they believe in the case the DA is working on.
grasshopper says:
December 20, 2013 at 1:26 pm
______
I haven’t forgotten. I do see this as another interesting twist… Terri has been gifted a lot of money by her parents to support her needs and her court costs.
How does the court now weigh that in terms of ‘income’ and ‘assets’? How will the court decide how much of the monies, if any, will go to Kaine for child support of Kitty for the last three years?
I give sighs for Kantor every once in a while. This is a heavy load.
I guess I see a ‘predetermined outcome’ as corruption. I’m not saying it’s definitively not happening. I’m just not ready to call it that yet especially with Houze at the helm. Pretty risky venture for all involved if it is.
I will say this. LE better have a very good reason/s for allowing the public to believe Terri is guilty. And they better be real close to coming out with it or, as my Daddy said, heads will roll.
RE
erose says:
December 20, 2013 at 4:18 pm
I don’t think TH requested a GAL because it seems anyone on the Mult. Co. payroll believes the DA is working on a case against her. KH is not requesting one because for him, things are as they should be wrt Baby K. That leaves the judge to appoint one, and I guess for TH it may be good that the judge does not.
—-
So she doesnt speak up and ask for a GAL to look over the best interests of her baby/child because everyone believes in the case of the DA?
_____
erose, Isnt that the reason why so many feel she should ask for a GAL especially when she had a better chance in the beginning when K was a babe under her care who had been removed recently?
Now she has no relationship with Kitty and can not speak to her likes and dislikes or anything- she IMO has made it easier for Kitty to remain in the sole custody of Kaine as she did not ask for a GAl she dropped her request for visitation and custody until rfecently and still know agrees to only partial cooperation on MH evaluations etc…
IMO it doesnt look good
————
RE Amys Sis-
I’ve been thinking about the GAL and CPS angle and I think it’s a moot point considering where we are now. Vien is in, both attorney’s are nearing the end, and as Blink said, neither side will benefit from one so neither parent will request it.
—-But the reason to ask for a GAL would be for the benefit of Kitty not either side-
You:
Why Terri didn’t request it years ago puzzles me but if she didn’t then she certainly won’t now.
—She didnt years ago because she dropped her request for visitation and custody-
I am puzzled to why you are puzzled Amyssister, she would have had to speak up to ask for a GAL and she would have needed to voice each of her concerns and submit to be ing evaluated by a family services agent- not just kaine would have been subjected to questions and evals- and since we now know Terri still will not submit and invokes the 5th how can she ever and now stand up to ask for a GAL?
and I agree Kantor won’t because there have been no accusations that Kitty is neglected or abused and what he needs he will get from Vien.
and adding
if the court (judge) asks for a GAL then that would again put terri in the position of NOT being able to participate/cooperate fully with the sole person specifically appointed to protect “the best interests of ” her child- How would that look?
- as you said the judge feels all will be sorted out in regular proceedings with the parties own attorneys on these custody matters so why introduce a GAL when there is no neglect abuse
So IMO terri and her lawyers will never seek the interference of a GAl- that would again put the spotlight on her inability to cooperate.
as for Kaine- why would he ask for a GAL- he has custody he has a protection order in place to make sure terri has no contact with Kitty- as he believes it would be at the detriment of his child- why would he ask for an appointment of a GAL- it would be counterproductive to his assertions that he is working in the best interests of Kitty how could it not be seen that way when again he has sole custody w
hile /TH no visitation rights?
AJMO Peace
I thought to qualify as a 503c he changed
the BKHFdtn mission statement from
Kyron to generic missing children?
Not gonna go look it up again tho.
grasshopper says:
December 18, 2013 at 4:32 pm
this is from a hallway presser of K’s around the time of the RO renewal in June 2013. the FB page is the one that drives the hater crater crazier.
Kaine Horman:
“I am disappointed that we have not found my son yet. I’m glad
we have strong law enforcement and community involvement in his recovery, and I think we will continue to express ourselves
based on our beliefs that help recover him and bring him home,” Kaine Horman said after Friday’s hearing.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Trashys-Too/1424040414476404
and
grasshopper says:
December 20, 2013 at 1:32 pm
@Graceinthehills
“I am disappointed that we have not found my son yet. I’m glad
we have strong law enforcement and community involvement in his recovery, and I think we will continue to express ourselves
based on our beliefs that help recover him and bring him home,” Kaine Horman said after Friday’s hearing.
~~~~~~~~~~~
the point of this remark of KAINE’S is that he believes LE approach and the community involvement of stalking and hate should continue and will be effective in “recovering” Kyron.
Does everyone know that the Kyron Horman Foundation is listed as Search and Recovery Services?
B
—-
I do not think that what kaine was saying is that he believes that those who harass TH or involve themselves in hate speech are beneficial to recovering Kyron-
I think it is fair to say that he is thankful for the support of the community and of LE in their continuing efforts to recover Kyron- but not to go so far to say that he is condoning the behaviors of those who are involved in the crater- I find it sad that these few would tout kaines words as a call to arms- they are already content to spur Desirees poor emotional state to ill conceived actions in the guise of “support” Kaine has not been a part of that …
so to use this quote as a pat on the back to the crater by the crater etc is wrong, unfair and misleading.
Blink I dont understand, you are not saying that you believe kaine is condoning the hater crater harassment under the umbrella of this foundation are you?
AJMO Peace
Strictly referring to the status of the foundation, Mom3.0
B
for those of you out of towers who wonder what the heck goes on with this city, here’s another questionable hire.
“The former head of Oregon’s Psychiatric Security Review Board, who resigned while under investigation, is now working for Portland police, responsible for their compliance with federally mandated reforms.”
much more info at ink
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/12/portland_police_hire_former_he.html
Blink says, Does everyone know that the Kyron Horman Foundation is listed as Search and Recovery Services?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
seems to have changed. originally it was something like help find a missing child, then (I think to get the tax exempt status) it became assist families of missing children. so now it’s search and recovery? like SAR? how does that relate to booths at the largest garage sale and Kyron’s run, the ubermarathon, that auto race? does he have a crew of SAR? or does he donate to them. last financial statement (old) doesn’t suggest they are doing anything but collecting money, and even then I suspect most cash is not declared. I suppose in kind (like donating booth space etc) doesn’t need to be declared.
I would say I would like to stay factual on the issue, but the truth is, there has been a great deal of back and forth between the foundation and the IRS, and to date, I don’t even know for sure multiple public status’s about this endeavor.
B