Blink On Crime Kyron Horman Investigation Exclusive: DeDe Spicher Interview Yields Allegations Of Illegal Steroid Use Terri Horman Took To Police
A Blink On Crime Exclusive: DeDe Spicher speaks for the first time about her ordeal in the Kyron Horman investigation- continued ©
S. Christina Stoy, Editor In Chief- Blink On Crime
DeDe Spicher and Terri Moulton Horman
In the first part of blinkoncrime.com’s exclusive interview with DeDe Spicher, she revealed that after over 3 years of attempting to provide Multnomah County Sheriffs Office as well as Assistant Deputy Attorney Norm Frink with the necessary information they requested to clear her from any suspicion in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Skyline second grader Kyron Horman; she has finally been cleared after passing a polygraph as part of her requirement under an immunity deal that has been sealed with the court. Unofficially cleared, that is.
Spicher and her attorney Chad Stavley, who have since refused all local media requests, would very much like the Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office and current District Attorney Rod Underhill to clear her officially and publicly.
Spicher is adamant that law enforcement never had any reason to question her statements to them from the beginning, has cooperated fully for over three years and recently testified before the grand jury to prove she had nothing to hide. While she would like the public to know that any assertions to the contrary are untrue, and sometimes have been offered maliciously, her desire to speak out about her experience over the last three years is primarily to force investigative resources to review it’s progress- and hopefully adjust in a way to further leads in Kyron’s case.
As was proven not only by her recent polygraph, but also by the verification that no evidence ever existed to support investigator’s theory in the first place, Spicher had no information about anyone’s potential involvement in Kyron’s disappearance, let alone her own.
The continuation of our interview, which provoked some very interesting revelations long felt to be a possibility by many, was confirmed by Ms. Spicher as she says- told to her by Terri Moulton Horman are prompting new possible theories in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Kyron Horman. Two days after Kyron Horman’s eleventh birthday.
Stoy: So, in your estimation then, why do you think that detectives Herron and Kravfe were so sure that you were involved or knew who was.
Spicher: I have thought about this a lot, and I think there were a few reasons. I think because I was advised through a meeting Terri had with a family friend and attorney that she should assume that all of her communication was being monitored by law enforcement and anyone she had contact with. He told her to assume the house was bugged as well as vehicles, etc. I also believe you did an article a while back that pointed out her phone was in Kaine’s name. As this was a day or two after she was served with the restraining order, she was also told that
Stoy (interrupting): You bought a prepaid phone after June 28th and never had one before that? I had read that you or someone else purchased them the day of or the day after Kyron’s disappearance.
Spicher: No. I purchased one prepaid phone, after Terri shared the info from her meeting, in my own name, either June 29th or 30th. I think they were hung up on the fact that I came to her aid with no contact for so long so they just were convinced there had to be.
Stoy: ok, sorry, continue. So you are not saying that LE was suggesting that you were hiding some other number you had and that was how they were alleging that you HAD to have been in contact with Terri or some other person prior to and on June 4th and that escalated your “poi” status in your opinion?
Spicher: They did not say that to me specifically, but what they repeated over and over again, was that Terri and I had to have had some form of communication we were hiding. It never made any sense to me because I knew I only had my cell that I had forever until the end of June, and I knew I had not been in contact with Terri since her 40th birthday party in March. So I would ask- well then I guess that means that you don’t have any contacts you can’t verify from either of us so why am I even in this “interview”?
To my recollection they never shared with me or answered any of my questions in response when something they kept hounding me about seemed absurd and conflicting with their theory.
Stoy: Which was?
Spicher: At first, I think that they really believed I was involved, and at some point I think they were talking more “accessory after the fact” because I got the impression ( although they did not share it with me) that Terri’s cell phone activity that day was nowhere near where I was, and my vehicle never left, nor did I. They would not verify that they located the ceramics/glassware artist [pottery artisan] I told you about and still have not.
Stoy: So in your opinion, you were clearly the linchpin of this case, they [LE] believed you held the key to solving it and/or implicating Terri exclusively at that point, they no longer entertained your involvement per se?
Spicher: I honestly don’t think I could say that I ever believed that they stopped treating me as some sort of suspect. I never felt that way, but yes, absolutely they 100% believe that Terri is responsible and I definitely believed we all had to be interviewed and scrutinized or whatever, but I really thought up until the meeting with Norm Frink that they [LE] would abandon that theory quickly because if they were positive I was the key, and I knew I was not, that would also eliminate Terri, who I did not and do not believe, but have no proof, was involved or knew anything.
Stoy: Right, so if you had nothing, and they felt you were the only nexus, it had to mean that they had no independent evidence of anything or anyone else so they would start in another direction?
Spicher: Right, but every interaction I had with them following and including the request to participate in the sting against her, made me believe they never did. To get back to the why question you asked me- my final thought on that is that they kept pointing out that I was the person to tell everyone not to speak to them without attorneys in the beginning. I would ask like who do you mean, because that would have been my opinion across the board for any situation, but it was definitely based on what was getting out about how they were going about this. I was scared and it turned out it was good reason. I also would point out to them that I did not think that was or should be the basis for suspicion because if it was, it seemed to me that I was told that several staff members at Skyline had hired counsel, and Kaine was the FIRST to have one between he and Terri and I had told her at least a week or so before that she should.
Stoy: Why do you think she did not immediately take your friendly advice? Your Dad was LE, and I presume she knew that. People can say what they want, but I know many members of law enforcement in different jurisdictions and agencies. I have worked with them or contributed analysis to cases with them privately [I cannot and would not ever include that in anything I choose to write on] and I can tell you that I do not know one of them that if they were the focus of a criminal probe or internal investigation they absolutely do not agree to an interview without a representative. In fact, Herron is or was the President of Mulnomah County Police Union or was, if I recall correctly. So to that end, I find that a pretty hypocritical reason for suspicion of anyone.
Spicher: (laughs) Interesting. I am not sure that I knew that. The reason Terri didn’t get an atty before the RO was because she was told by LE that if she did, she wouldn’t be privvy to any of their investigative discoveries, she would be out of the loop in finding Kyron.
Stoy: Have you had a desire or opportunity to review any sort of past events regarding the MCSO, I guess I should add, that involve anyone in this case or investigation you have had contact with?
Spicher: No, do you mean like any other detectives or that sort of thing?
Stoy: Have you ever met with or been interviewed with any other agencies or detectives?
Spicher: I believe I either met or just said hello to the guy you mentioned in that recent article of yours while he was at the house. Both Kaine and Terri were there at the time as well.
Stoy: Bobby O’Donnell?
Spicher: That’s it, yes, him. Why did you ask me if I am aware of any sort of events- should I be?
Stoy: Well, I think that tangentially if I were you I would be considering just about everything as it related to what you have been through, and I am aware of some what I will refer to as “stuff” but what I don’t want to do prior to the completion of our interview process is temper any of your responses with anything I know peripherally if that’s ok with you. If you wish, once I publish the continuation which will have that sort of information, I would invite you to comment on it for the record if you choose- are you ok with that?
Spicher: yes, that’s fine and probably a good idea.
Stoy: back briefly to the “sting request against Terri- On that issue- the request they extended to you outside the presence of your attorney and that they asked you not to tell Chad, as you think back , considering you have had no communication with Horman for over three years did you believe they thought it would work? What did your attorney say when you told him?
Spicher: I can’t and won’t address any conversations I have had with my attorney, but to answer your question as to my opinion, I really don’t know for sure, I knew that I did not, and thought it was really, really odd- that was my first reaction. After more thought, and other conversations, I don’t see how they thought it would work, or why they were still seemingly convinced after I had just passed the poly, etc, Terri was still their suspect and responsible. What is your opinion on it?
Stoy: I think I may reserve my thoughts on that for my piece. Again, not wanting to temper your opinions as we move along here and I think that could happen if I did. Is that ok with you?
Spicher: Sure, thank you.
Stoy: I would like to move on to another subject for discussion. I would just like to confirm for the record that I have never prior to this interview, asked you any questions about your potential knowledge of steroid use by yourself, or by Terri or Kaine Horman. Is that correct?
Spicher: Correct, ok.
Stoy: Did they ask you this?
Spicher: Who is they? You got a lot of pronouns flying around (laughs).
Stoy: Fair point, you’re right. The good news is, as English, or should I say proper English is my second language (laughs) I use an copy editor. Allow me to rephrase please. Did anyone in law enforcement at any time ask you about steroids or other illegal injectable supplements sometimes used in weight training or body building in your interviews in this case?
Spicher: Your question was did they [le] ask me anything about steroids or anything injectable ever?
Stoy: (laughs) now who’s throwing around the pronouns?
Spicher: (laughs) touche’ . I was asked about it very vaguely in the beginning, I told them I had never used them, that I did not believe Terri ever did because she and I had similar views against using them and while we were on different supplement regimens when I was training for a marathon in 2008 I still remembered her to be knowledgeable about legal and effective nutritional supplements. I had no reason to believe she had ever used any kind of steroids. I can’t say conclusively she never did but it would shock me.
Stoy: Why shock you?
Spicher: Because a few years back I recall Terri telling me that Kaine was what she referred to as “juicing” and that his behavior had become very aggressive and well, impatient or overeactive with the kids and she had discussed it with him and he ignored her.
Stoy: So for the record, when you say juicing you are referring to illegal steroids, not my Omega specials I make, correct? That was the only question they ever asked you and did not ask any follow up questions like how long ago, etc, etc. And so would you characterize the way law enforcement asked that question and their reaction to your response as disinterested, or having nothing to do with the case?
Spicher: I was never asked about Kaine’s use of steroids by either detectives or the grand jury. But yes, that is what she told me. I actually had forgotten all about it until she refreshed my recollection when I stayed there with her. To the best of my memory I was asked just what I said, I answered as I just said and was never asked any follow up question nor was it mentioned again to me by law enforcement . I don’t think I ever really understood what they did or did not think in terms of my information was important to the case, but yes, they were disinterested from my perspective as to it was the only time I was ever asked about it over the course of three and a half years and so my assumption is they still are. But that is my assumption.
Stoy: Understood, you are referring to the time you stayed at the Horman home late June 2010 through early July 2010 following Kaine’s service of the restraining order and her exclusive use of the home? Spicher: I am not sure about the exclusive use part, I didn’t really know anything about how that sort of thing worked and I think for some reason I want to say Terri was not allowed to show anyone.
Stoy: Ok. Tell me everything you know about that. But, I would like you to see if you can provide me your recollection from what you were told about steroid use PRIOR to your conversations about it that refreshed your memory. By the way, who else knows about this, if you know.
Spicher: Terri’s attorney Stephen Houze.
Stoy: How would you know that?
Spicher: Because I helped her load them up, what appeared to me to be syringes in a box and deliver it to her attorney’s office, she said, at his request. She also located some cancelled checks for what she said was Kaine’s payment for steroids. I don’t remember who they were made out to but it was not to cash.
Stoy: ok, understood, we will get back to that. I want to try and focus on what she told you those “few years back.” Do you recall what year, even ballpark.
Spicher: I want to say, but can’t be sure, it was after her competition in 2005, and I am tempted to say it was around the time they got married or shortly thereafter- I am just not going to be much help in remembering this if you are asking me to extract what I remembered from then on my own.
Stoy: Nope, that’s what I am asking, your fine, I don’t want to lead you but let me ask you a few things that may help. Do you remember where you were during the conversation.
Spicher: I remember it was either the one and only time I ever had lunch with Terri, or it was during a time she called my cell, Terri had a lot of drama, and so I was in a Home & Garden Show class and I recall I was saying things out loud to let he know I was not free to talk really or respond as she was talking, so I was saying things like… I don’t know, we should probably touch base on that when I am done here, or sounds good that we chat on it later.
Stoy: The brush up the other party is not getting, like that?
Spicher: Yes, she was not getting it and so I was kind of 50% paying attention. It was either during that call or at the lunch. Other than that, I am not remembering the timing so well.
Stoy: But you would say a few years before Kyron went missing so based on that 2007 or 2008? Do you remember if they were married at the time?
Spicher: Again, we were friends for a good number of years but not close friends, I almost felt like if she was calling me or talking to me about it she had no other option at the time.
Stoy: Got it. What did she say
Spicher: She said that Kaine had been aggressive with her and impatient with the children and she attributed that to his “juicing”. She confronted him and she felt he did not listen to her. She told me that she then called a detective and turned in Kaine’s seller. The member at the gym, I used to know the name but I really can’t recall because I was in the early morning crowd and this guy was more afternoon, I presume when they were there or they saw him. I had stopped going to the same gym as them ater the first year or two I met them there.
Stoy: So she called a detective to turn in the seller Kaine was buying steroids from? Wasn’t she concerned about the fact that buying them is also illegal and that Kaine could face charges?
SPicher: She told me that she contacted a detective and said she would be willing to turn over information about someone selling steroids but only if she could do so anonymously and without saying who was buying them, etc.
Stoy: So it was your understanding that she was trying to work out a scenario that would stop Kaine’s use without him ever knowing it was her by turning in that person? Sort of like… she gets approval to remain anonymous, she gives the tip and then one day comes home and says… “Hey honey, guess what I heard at the gym.. you better stop that or you could be arrested for it, etc?
Spicher: Yes, something like that. Except and again, we have discussed it at one or both these occasions, but that did not work out. The detective called her again directly and she was upset that there was further contact. From what I recall, I think that was the tone of what she was telling me.
Stoy: Understood, so you are thinking that it may have been why she was sort of wired about it and not hearing you try to go about your day, but insisting and venting like she was upset by it.
Spicher: Yes, I think so.
Stoy: Do you think she could have called you because your Dad was law enforcement and she might need that sort of advice. I don’t think so because she did not ask for any. So then what? Did Kaine find out?
Spicher: I just remember there was some sort of investigation of the guy, and I really don’t know if Kaine ever found out about it or knows to this day. If the seller or anyone was arrested or anything else at the time I do not remember, that was how much I paid attention to it then until Terri reminded me of it.
Stoy: Ok. Now, why is it that Terri was discussing it with you when you were staying at the house with her in your view?
Spicher: Because after the restraining order was served and I guess she realized where Kaine was headed, it was sort of like- if he was going to badmouth her, in her estimation it was false, but anyway, that Kaine had skeletons in his own closet sort of thing. She told her lawyer [Houze] and she said he instructed her to bring the syringes and the cancelled checks to his office. We did.
Stoy: So was Terri saying that Kaine was using steroids behind her back and she found this or that she knew and was having sort of the same reaction as last time, or she just learned once he was out of the home or what? Was she suggesting this to you like it had something to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: I got the impression she did not know, or at least did not know when the last time he was using them was, but it gets fuzzy for me there because it is my belief up until the time the RO was served, in my opinion she would have tried to protect Kaine from le finding out so I don’t know if she told le, but it would surprise me. Terri was always very family centric. She would protect her family unit, and that is why she did the turning in thing, this would seem the same to me until he made those murder for hire allegations.
Stoy: So did you get the impression from her that she thought that her allegation of Kaine’s steroid use had anything to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: No, not at all.
Stoy: Nothing like, maybe this happened as some sort of retribution against her for turning someone in previously or against Kaine if they thought he was involved because after all she says he was the one buying it back then?
Spicher: No, she told me she had no idea who was responsible for Kyron’s disappearance or why, and the only possibility she came up with after the fact because of his past behavior and the fact that he showed up at her door demanding $10,000 she had no idea what he was talking about, that it was the landscaper. He was the only person acting like a criminal at the time.
Stoy: Have you ever seen a text of hers involving the custody situation after the fact, after the Rudy Sanchez Estrada “sting” and she called police twice that day/evening that ended with “mark 1 for the FBI.”
Spicher: I may have, if I did I don’t remember it specifically.
Stoy: She specifically said the FBI, who has only ever assisted in this case, and who has no jurisdictional presence in Kyron’s case, I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on that.
Spicher: No, I don’t have any idea what she meant.
Is it possible that illegal steroid use or sales and the recent public outing there was an ongoing Federal Investigation with the emphasis on police and gym members that included persons familiar to the Horman’s contributed to the circumstances involving the disappearance of Kyron Horman?
Has it been excluded by having more law enforcement investigating themselves?
Roid Rumors and Boys In Blue.. Coincidence Or Clue?
It is no secret that Oregon has seen it’s share of corruption allegations in recent years. The very public and very disturbing account of it’s Governor Neil Goldschmidt’s involvement with a 14 year old girl earned Willamette Week’s Nigel Jaquiss a Pulitzer in 2005 for breaking the story a year earlier. As a strong argument for the trickle down effect, Goldschmidt’s former driver Bernie Giusto- who became the Multnomah County Sheriff following the debacle, was forced to resign his position when a State agency declared they would be removing his police certifications due to his lack of “moral fitness” outlined in the now infamous Giusto Report. A former Sheriff, Bob Skipper, was then appointed to take his place, but after two attempts could not pass the required certifications. The current Multnomah Sheriff Dan Staton, who has since won an election, was appointed in his place. Several current MCSO officers assigned to Kyron’s case were interviewed for the Giusto report.
In fact, Bobby O’Donnell was the lead investigator in Kyron’s case for the first 18 months who according to his own words in his interview was the unfortunate subject of an allegation involving his own very messy divorce.
MCSO Sgt Brett Ritchie stated in a police interview that O’Donnell was seen waving a gun and threatening his life [Ritchie] after he began dating O’Donnell’s ex wife. Laura O’Donnell was granted a restraining order against him that later became an agreement between the couple.
The lead investigator in the case of a missing child openly threatened a ranking officer and that incident was never investigated outside of Ritchie being told to stay away from O’Donnell. O’Donnell’s deposition and his motion to quash it are the subject of a hearing scheduled for Friday September 13, 2013.
There is no question the agency tasked with the investigation into the disappearance of Kyron Horman has had several and more recent embarrassing entanglements.
In another investigative piece by the Willamette Week, it exposes the egregious overtime paychecks that members of the prosecutors and investigators assigned to Kyron’s case have received during the early months following Kyron’s disappearance.
It is unclear how Multnomah County ever had jurisdiction in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance. According to the Skyline School’s filed safety and response plan, the Portland Police Bureau is the agency of record.
Multnomah County’s former woes might have paled a bit in comparison if only by the difference a year makes to public memory, to that of their fellow neighboring officers in Canby, located in Clackamas County.
After several investigations into the selling and possible use of anabolic steroids a Canby Police officer, which were repeatedly stalled due to his caption tipping other’s off in the alleged ring , Officer Jason Deason was arrested along with Canby Landscape Supply Owner William Traverso, Brian Casey Paul Jackson were arrested. The investigation was believed to be ongoing and Traverso, Deason and Jackson all cut deals for quick prison stints that shocked fellow officers and the public alike. The specifics of which were sealed by the court. It is now known that the Federal Bureau of Investigation continued to require the ongoing cooperation of it’s criminals turned informants to pursue federal indictments against possible targets in law enforcement and members of the bodybuilding set- to include acquaintances of Kaine and Terri Horman.
Presuming the confirmed allegations are true- is it possible that ‘a few years back’ Terri Horman unwittingly set off a state turned Federal investigation into the buying, using and selling of human growth hormone and anabolic steroids? How could this be connected, if it is, to the timing of Kyron’s disappearance even if she had?
“… Jackson, through a plea deal on state charges in 2009 where he admitted to selling anabolic steroids to Canby police officers in uniform, had been working with the FBI on an ongoing investigation when they confronted him with the knowledge that he was found deceptive on a polygraph designed to indicate if Jackson’s participation was far more extensive then he originally admitted to…”
“…Jackson, with his attorney, began cooperating with federal authorities shortly after his arrest. He identified his source for steroids as Vancouver resident Rainbow “Bo” Wild Keepers, 39, a competitive bodybuilder and photographer. Agents ran Keepers’ name in federal databases and discovered that an Arizona man had tipped off the Drug Enforcement Administration years ago that Keepers was his source of steroids. Keepers was never charged…”
On June 3rd, 2010, approximately 24 hours before Kyron Horman’s disappearance, Jackson was arrested on a Federal warrant following a sealed indictment issued the day before after failing a polygraph and refusing to help the FBI further.
From the Indictment:
Between June 2, 2005 and May 2008, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials B.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
It has since been revealed that the initials BW stand for Bradley Worden. Worden owns a few businesses, all relating to wholesale gym equipment or nutritional products. Worden has never been charged.
Between June 2006 and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials N.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
The identity of the person with initials NW is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and December 2007,: in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule illcontrolled substances, to a person with the initials G.P., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and
841(b)( 1)(E).
The identity of the person with the initials G.P is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule III controlled substances, to a person with the initials S.B., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and 84l(b)(1)(E).
The initials S.B. refer to Steve Beaudoin, a former work associate of Jackson’s and current Oregon State safety officer.
According to assistant U.S. Attorney Jane Shoemaker, Jackson sold Beaudoin at least 50 pills of the steroid Winstrol, an injectable steroid called Deca Durabolin, Sustanon and, in June 2007, 100 pills of Anavar on one to two occasions. Shoemaker also said Jackson sold Beaudoin $500 worth of human growth hormone. Investigators discovered the sales through witness interviews and Jackson’s computer records, Shoemaker said.
From Buff To Puff
In contrast to Jackson, although Traverso also sold to Deason and other members of law enforcement, William ‘Jake’ Traverso, a former competitive bodybuilder and “Mr. Oregon” cooperated extensively with the FBI by identifying other law enforcement officers he sold steroids to, and got a lenient sentence of 15 days in jail, 30 days home detention and 24 months probation, with no federal charges.
In a letter submitted to a Clackamas County judge Monday, FBI Special Agent Christopher Frazier said that Traverso has discussed his drug distribution activities in detail. “The public safety employees identified by Traverso included law enforcement officers, corrections officers, fire and rescue personnel and university public safety officers,” Frazier wrote, “Several spin-off FBI public corruption investigations were initiated as a result of these allegations, and are ongoing.”
Traverso, Deason and Jackson were cooperating with the Feds simultaneously, and in a very public way. Although Deason had been similarly employed by the Canby Police under Chief Greg Kroeplin, at least one of the raids on Traverso- Deason’s client, was by Deason’s Canby fellow officer James Murphy.
John Hingson, Traverso’s attorney and past commentator on the Horman case, sparred with then ADA Norm Frink as well. Hingson unearthed the report that included Murphy had been demoted following Deason’s arrest and his credibility was called into question. Murphy worked the graveyard shift with Deason. The report also revealed that both Deason and Officer James Murphy, who was one of the few to initiate an investigation into Deason’s steroid abuse, were put at risk when they were scheduled to work side by side as the only two officers on that shift.
“…Hingson obtained a 2009 report written by private detectives the City of Canby had hired to investigate the steroid scandal. Among their findings: Murphy had been demoted from detective to officer for alleged dishonesty…”
Chief GregKroeplin resigned prior to release of a scorching memo outlining the city’s findings they had outsourced properly to two retired Oregon detectives, which would have resulted in his termination.
Murphy, still employed by Canby Police, is apparently looking to renew the agencies stint for bad press.
On October 13, 2011, six months after former Willamette Week journalist James Pitkin featured his Lord of The Flies article outlining Murphy’s internal investigation led to his demotion for dishonestly, he arrested a freelance sports reporter while taking pictures of him exiting the Canby Police Headquarters on duty and entering his personal vehicle.
Andrew Millbrooke filed a Federal lawsuit in 2012 against The City of Canby, Officer James Murphy and his captain Bret Smith for excessive force and wrongful arrest which took place after Murphy used his cruiser to follow Millbrooke who was on foot. In a police report from another officer in the case, Millbrooke tells him he is a freelance journalist trying to expose corruption and drug use by Officer Murphy. The suit is pending. A review of the declarations by both Mr. Smith and Mr. Murphy do not include the details of the investigative report commissioned by The City Of Canby discussing Mr. Murphy’s prior demotion. Mr. Murphy also had a recent court decision regarding improper procedure [See Bonneau].
With pending motions to release the employment files of some Canby police officers to include Murphy, the charges against Traverso were dismissed this past May due the state delaying the case over 23 months.
Traverso, Deason and Jackson are all currently on probation. Traverso is awaiting trial on recent charges involving watermelon theft.
As the Federal Bureau of Investigation is listed as an investigative partner to MCSO in the Kyron Horman investigation, it is their policy not to release files where they are not the lead agency of record or during an ongoing criminal investigation .
Requests for comment from Kaine Horman through his attorney Brett Engel regarding the allegations that he has either purchased or sold illegal steroids have not been returned at the time of this publication.
However, in an article published to include a quote from Kaine Horman it seems that Kaine confirms Ms. Spicher’s assertion that Terri Horman did not use illegal steroids, but rather nutritional supplements and had moved past those very quickly after her bodybuilding competition.
“…Kaine said he noticed a sharp shift in her behavior, saying she became self-centered and short-tempered.
“She’s not eating a lot of food, she’s exercising twice a day, she’s up at 4 o’clock in the morning, she’s not sleeping at night so we get just general irritable behavior towards everyone around her,” he said.
He said she consumed over-the-counter stimulants, such as fat burners, in high doses. In four months between January and April, she shed 62 pounds, dropping from 185 to 123 pounds, he said.
At the end of April, with her muscles bulked up and skin glistening with a bronze tan, she competed in the Emerald Cup bodybuilding competition in Bellevue, Wash…”
S.Christina Stoy, Editor In Chief, www.blinkoncrime.com was able to independently confirm Ms. Spicher’s account of alleged steroid use and ensuing investigation of a gym member as told to her by Terri Horman.
The source, an associate of Terri Horman, DeDe Spicher and Kaine Horman who declined to be identified, went on to say that at the time it was “… really common knowledge who was using steroids and who was selling them…” “… was not aware previously that Terri Horman claimed to have instigated contact with law enforcement to turn in the seller…” The source declined to identify the seller and could not say for certain if he was charged and likely would not away- given the request not to disclose the source’s name on the record.
Reached for comment, Terri Moulton Horman Attorney Stephen Houze declined to comment based on his policy of not speaking publicly when a client has pending legal matters.
A request for comment to Mr. Bunch, Terri Horman’s divorce attorney has not been returned by the time of this publication.
More Questions Than Answers..
Following several hours of interviews with DeDe Spicher, the woman who was not a close friend to Terri Horman but ultimately was the closest to her in the early days of the investigation- are we left with more questions than answers about what could have happened to the little boy whose 11th birthday was 2 days ago?
Spicher concedes that anything she discussed as told to her by Terri Horman in some minor instances may only be verifiable by Horman herself- and she is not talking… Yet.
She also points out that ultimately everything she told me she shared with investigators as far as “truthfulness” was confirmed by a polygraph – to include the question “Was she withholding any information from investigators?”
She was not.
Although limited, Spicher’s accounts in many instances confirm sparse information heard early on from Terri herself. Not the least of which was that although widely criticized for not speaking out publicly, she was told by investigators not to under any circumstances- and when she broached the possibility of retaining counsel was told that she would then be cut off from any information as to the investigation process to find Kyron Horman.
Through Spicher, Horman also confirmed that out of concern for Horman’s “spacieness” which she defined by walking into a room and staring off, not remembering, etc, Terri Horman called his pediatrition Thursday June 3rd and made an appointment for Friday June 11th. His last day of school. Horman also told Spicher that Kyron had wondered off or got lost while in his teacher Ms. Porter’s care once before when following a fellow student out of class.
Initially, prior to learning Kyron had been marked absent not very long after she left the building, that was Horman’s first thought. Those hopes grew into panic with that revelation that he had been missing for hours.
Spicher says Terri was adamant that she never had a sexual relationship with the now infamous landscaper Rudy Sanchez Estrada Spicher agrees that her friend had the propensity to be flirtatious but she never knew her to be sexually promiscuous. Outside of the fact that she says at Kaine’s request to occasionally include an additional female in the bedroom, to which Spicher declined, she was not aware that the Horman’s had a swinger lifestyle.
To her knowledge, there were other women that were asked to participate in a threesome with the couple that did not say no some years ago, but had no current knowledge and she herself was never involved with Horman sexually.
In her take, the addition of a 3rd female was an expression of control on Kaine’s part in the relationship.
Terri explained the landscapers “sexual accosting” , previously reported exclusively by www.blinkoncrime this way:
“… She said she had Kitty on her hip and he came up behind her and was kissing her neck and put his arm around her and when she verbally resisted with concern that Kitty was in her arms he sort of grabbed her and she spun around and broke free…”
Spicher adds that on more than one occasion she tried to bring that up during meetings with DA Norm Frink and investigators. One one occasion, as suggested by her Father, a former Klamath County Marine Officer, at their own expense The Klamath County Sheriff and his first lieutenant had agreed to meet with Frink, Spicher and her father on DeDe’s behalf to sort of provide character backgrounds and family history he felt would be helpful in clearing her.
“… This came up in the first interview I had with Mr Frink and I told him she had made that call. Later in the interview when he was trying to push more of my buttons, he tells me that call never happened (implying Terri had lied to me). I told him okay, that’s what you’re telling me, but I recall it differently (implying he was lying to me right then). He got very angry about that and insisted it was “fact”. I said okay, whatever. Much later, like one of the last times I met with Mr Frink, the Klamath County Sheriff and his 1st Lieutenant flew up on their own dime to meet with Mr Frink & Keith Krafve to see if they could help by offering their opinion of my character, and that it didn’t seem unusual to them at all that I would go help Terri, that it is very consistent with how my family has always been. At that meeting, I retold the story of Rudy sexually accosting Terri (her words), but said I wasn’t sure about the 911 call. That totally infuriated Mr Frink. I told him I was trying to believe him and simply not certain about what I could remember on that point.
The DAs office behaved very strangely toward the Klamath Co Sheriff and his Lt. They tried everything they could to keep us separated and even insisted that they (the DAs office) drive them back to the airport, despite the fine fact that we (Dad & I) had picked them up and brought them in, and would definitely be seeing them again in the near future. It was just weird, to all of us…”
I asked DeDe if she used the term called 911 in every exchange. She had. I asked her if she got the impression that the reason Frink was so sure it never happened was because there was no 911 call on the record about it – could it be that maybe she reached out to that former law enforcement person she contacted on the steroid issue and it was actually a dispatch call versus a trackable 911 call issue.
Spicher says she got the impression that Frink was suggesting that the “accosting” as described by her friend did not happen, but could not be sure except to say that Frink seemed to become irate when she brought it up on every occasion. Spicher felt Sanchez Estrada was the only person behaving like a criminal and that supported the accounts she was given.
I asked DeDe if Terri mentioned ever paying Sanchez Estrada for work at the Horman home. She said she did not recall Terri ever saying anything other than she had no idea what he was talking about when he came to the door and asked for $10,000 so she slammed the door in his face and called 911.
Stoy: So did she think it was some sort of extortion attempt now that she had mentioned him to investigators and they told her that they had interviewed him?
Spicher: She thought that he was dangerous from her past experience.
Stoy: Did you think it was odd that with a brand new John Deere tractor parked outside that TH was hiring a landscaper? I was able to confirm through other sources that he cleared some blackberry or blueberry bushes similar to Ms. Von Klevelen, and the tractor does not have a UCC lien on it, meaning it was not financed.
Spicher: No, it wasn’t. Kaine bought it. It was Terri’s job to manage the inside of the house as well as the entire property. I knew that when Kaine would travel he would come up with this project lists for her to complete by the time he got home. I mean, like cleaning the gutters, cutting the grass, washing all the windows, that sort of thing. To the best of my recollection Terri and Kaine did not have bank accounts together- he controlled everything he made.
Stoy: With a baby, 7 year old and teenager and hubby out of town? How was she managing that? No wonder he was suggesting that she was pouring through money like water or something like that, she was probably hiring help. I am not even sure I think a woman by herself at that property with a baby should be on the roof by herself anyway.
Spicher: No, Terri had to pay any support money or whatever to the household expenses and I have surmised Kaine gave her some sort of allowance which she probably blew through pretty quickly on frivolous things like food and clothes for her children. I have never known Terri to be frivolous with money. I know of at least two times when the projects she was supposed to accomplish were impossible for her to manage. One was the windows so I believe she hired someone that time and as I recall her parents paid for that. I believe the other was the landscaper.
Stoy: Is it a fair question for me to ask how you feel about Kaine, from your tone I am sensing you are not a fan.
Spicher: I have tremendous compassion for Kaine- he lost his child- what can one even say about that? But no, he is not someone I would want to be friends with today and I was cordial to him whenever I was around him but he was very controlling and was pretty mean to Terri about her weight from Kitty, things like that- I am not going to have anything in common with that.
Stoy: Did Terri ever mention anything about conflicts with Desiree Young, whether they were between her and she or Kaine and Desiree?
Spicher: Not that I recall, but I also never heard her speak of Desiree negatively at any time previously or when I stayed with her [Terri].
Stoy: That is saying a lot because right after the sting Ms. Young was pretty accusatory pretty quickly- and I do note that was based on information from law enforcement. Similar to some of the things both she and Kaine said publicly about you. Are you angry about that?
Spicher: O my no. That poor woman is going through hell and acted on information that I was told, lie or not, was given to her and Kaine. I have nothing but compassion for her and I wish I could shoulder some of her pain because I can.. I have nothing but compassion for all of Kyron’s parents and any anger I have over how I was treated, what I went through would never be directed at them. I really pray that Kyron will be found, I choose to put my energy into hope for that.
Pending Matters
Through Attorney Bunch, Terri Horman makes the claim that both law enforcement and Kaine Horman have been perpetrating the dissemination of inaccurate information involving the circumstances of Kyron Horman’s disappearance.
In a recent filing, set for hearing this Friday, Bunch pens a scathing reply to Deputy O’Donnell’s motion to quash, and accuses the county of improper ex parte communication.
Early this afternoon, a source within the Multnomah County Courthouse speaking on the condition of anonymity has confirmed that on behalf of Multnomah County, a motion has been filed to limit certain documents or discoverable information related to Mr. Horman and Bobby O’Donnell of the MCSO.
A hearing is scheduled before Judge Kantor for this Friday September 13, 2013
Jacqueline Beaufort, Ellie Sanders – research and contributing editors to this article.
Jason Mateos- contributing editor, copy.
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@Mom3.0,
This is just not about KH or TH. It is about a child’s right to see her mother. There is no legal representation for Baby K in all of this. Custody has three sides, and only two are being represented.
The reason TH stopped talking is that she was in the midst of a MFH allegation. Prior to that she did talk, and they did not believe her. What more can she offer? That is why she hired the best criminal attorney.
I disagree that TH is using this case in the same way that KH is. It has been stated “No talkie, No K****” or some such phrase. Her lawyers argue that they would like to defend the allegations of MFH, which is the reason she has been unable to see her child, however the court will not allow it.
The reason we are *all* sounding a bit bias is that we tend to support one side only of the debate each time. I apologize for not acknowledging you have an open mind about her innocence.
About this being a crime blog, and the innocent ’til proven guilty blah, blah, blah doesn’t count because we are not on a jury, I disagree. There are two things that set this case apart from anything we’ve really seen before. First, is a child disappeared on the government’s watch, and the government is not being held accountable.
FACT. Continues to be off the radar.
Second, a person is being kept away from her child for 3+ years, unable to confront her accuser, and who is to say that her accuser didn’t orchestrate the taking of the child, which btw should have never happened in a school to begin with.
FACT. The accusation is in the instant matter and is not disputed. He disappeared on Skyline’s watch and everyone is acting like it was the State fair. It was during the school day people. It was during a time where there is a reasonable expectation of safety for a 7 year old.
This is not just about TH’s rights, it is about how the judicial system can treat someone, so it’s about all of our rights. Is this investigation going to last 13 years? What if it does, and then TH is found innocent? The bio mother of this child has already missed fundamental years. Some damage is already done. How much more shall we tolerate on the word of RSE.
I would only add that regardless of where one falls on guilt or innocence, this situation has an absolute need for scrutiny that does not change. Get tired of me saying it or not. This could happen to anyone, in any jurisdiction if it remains unchecked in this case.
B
a walk down memory lane. KH’s first 1-1 interview
http://www.kgw.com/news/Kyron-Hormans-parents-talk-one-on-one-with-KGW-97153384.html
@Mom3.0,
Two more things…
Do you think if Baby K were not being held by the DA as a carrot on a stick in front of TH she would have supervised visitation by now? Convicted murderers have the right to supervised visitation with their children. TH has not even been named a suspect, so I just don’t get how this makes any sense at all.
True, Miranda Rights weren’t read to TH because she was not arrested, but because she was in fact a suspect, she should not have spoken to LE without an attorney present. I was presenting a hypothetical, and my point was if LE wants to talk to someone they suspect of a crime, best advise seems don’t cooperate without an attorney, or look what happens.
Not to butt in- but none of us know if TMH was mirandized- although I agree she likely was not, and I say this because when I heard O’Donnell did not record the interviews with her- first, I call BS. Then, I call pin the tail on the Miranda card- left in the wallet in the car, or some other convenience. Mr. Moulton did not presume TMH was about to be arrested from her.
O/T: Thank you both for your kind and respectful dialogue to include dissenting opinions.
B
Today was the anniversary of Pam Am 103 bombed out of the sky and crashing down on Lockerbie, Scotland.
I lived in the Syracuse University campus neighborhood in the 80′s. My first hubby and I were landlords. We learned about the students over the week following the initial news of the flight bombed down. 35 Students from SU’s study-abroad program died on that flight, along with 2 students in a study-abroad semester from SUNY Oswego, a campus an hour north of us.
We rented apartments to SU students and I had a copy-editing/proofreading biz that was tightly linked to grad students and all the writing they needed to complete. Few students could afford their own desktop computer back then.
I will never forget how kind, patient, and compassionate our university neighborhood was when we all realized that 35 young people who once walked happily among our interesting campus community would never become the artists, insurance agents, engineers, actors, doctors, nurses, and teachers that they were supposed to become.
We lived in a place that held the fairness of justice dear. We lived in a campus community that guaranteed that you could walk to the grocery store, and on the way, meet a grad student from Belize, a teaching assistant from Egypt, and a Jewish law school professor having coffee with an Iraqi-born engineering intern. The urban area of Syracuse produced burglaries, and a series of unsolved (to this day) campus area rapes occurred around 1986. However, aside form a very, very rare open display of racism — a frat party hissy fit, usually — EVERYONE in this university community got along. It was a wonderful place to live. I could go shopping at the big grocery story near the campus and end up discussing religion with a Greek Orthodox priest as I loaded my bags into my car, drive home, and sit in the garden behind our 3-apartment house to discuss NATO with our Turkish grad student tenant.
Immediately after the news was reported of Pam Am 103, a rage against Muslims did not occur in our neighborhood. Just the opposite. We had three small grocers who were from Lebanon, Syria, and Algeria. We hung out at their stores, drank their coffee, and watched as they mourned with us, feeling anger toward anyone who could dream up the plot to kill innocent people on a flight home.
Hell, we had Koreans who bought a Mexican restaurant, and they visited the Algerian grocery store to offer a very clumsy English “sorry.”
Tonight I would just like to remind anyone who, like me, is fixed on an opinion about Kyron’s fate and story and case.
The joy I felt in those awful days after Pan Am 103 was blown out of the sky was due to the nobility, patience, and integrity of men and women — young and earnestly trying to learn all they could about the world — who truly believed that the U.S. justice system was the finest in the world. So many SU students were from nations that did not have Miranda, pro bono defense attorneys, or even lawyers at ALL for the accused. In December, 1988, they looked to us, they looked to citizens of the United States of America, to see how to act.
Thank G-d that we can claim the 5th, rely on attorneys, and refuse to answer police questions. Thank G-d for that. Because, that is what we showed to students on every college campus that night. What I heard from SU students, from all over the world, in the days after 12/21/88 was pretty straightforward:
“Your government will find out who did this.”
Meaning: No one will be rounded up, tortured, and tossed into a labor camp for 50 years until they die. “Your government” will find the actual terrorists who planted a bomb on Pam Am 103.
From that very lofty view of us — of our country — to the smallest civil or criminal case in our state or local courts that does not receive international attention, we owe ourselves the same view that the world once had of us.
For the sake of children such as Kyron Horman and all other victims, young and old, can those handling this case strive to honor the honesty that students from nearly all nations on earth in 1988 once believed was our most amazing contribution to the whole freakin’-wide -world?
Justice for all?
@Blink. TY for OT to erose.
enumenclawrose is in my pantheon of heroes here, as are so many.
wrt her “How much more shall we tolerate on the word of RSE.”
It is, to me, intolerable that the word of RSE, who cannot specify English words TMH used in Mtg 1, and whom TH alerted RSE to, has so impacted mcso’s investigation, and the Sr DA’s RO support, for over 3 years imo to Kyron’s detriment. I accept Kaine, with a girlfriend at the time allegedly, was so done with Terri & wanted a quick exit, $ intact; and I get Desiree harbored such bitterness.
But imo MCSO put their least stable & least trained Deputies in charge; and Skyline personnel, Keefer especially,
went back to business as usual with nary a questioning or advocacy bone; just self interest imo.
——-
@erose. I thought most of us have an open mind about her involvement.
I prefer to phrase it Open to guilt rather than Open to innocence.
—–_
@Blink. My memory is that your criminal profile included something along the lines of a highly sophisticated computer expert. (Can you repeat?) In Portland that means a handful of startups, or Intel types. Certainly at Intel KH would know many fitting criteria. Has MCSO scrubbed all at Intel who knew of Kyron’s existence? What friends at Intel knew of SFair? Love to know if gf was an Intel employee/computer sophisticate. If so, she could’ve as easily hit out as Terri.
I just reviewed Spicher “timeline” as posted on an Anti (dds) site.
It occurred to me that Mcso’s elephanfine foot did not come down on Spicher
because she stayed with Terri, a distraught acquaintance, at her parent’s request.
My best opinion is MCSO had a search warrant for her apt, & took her computer & phone, because the only case connected person with previous contact with her (Kaine) offered up “suspicions” to mcso. Like Terri did with Rudy. What could KH have “suspected” other than this Singlet was presumed on– correction–”asked by me,” to plan my wife’s birthday, because I……
@erose. great research.
putting on my thinking cap:
Children, Families, divorce,
are really the States’ province.
And Great Deference
is always given trial judge/trier of fact
on appeal.
So whatever HofB may do, had darn well better do it prior to
any custody finding of JK, either temp or ongoing.
Even if T were accused, even if she had been indicted or arrested or even convicted, wouldn’t she be able to have supervised visitation with her daughter? What makes this situation different, except for the judges that cooperated with DA’s strategy?
About this being a crime blog, and the innocent ’til proven guilty blah, blah, blah doesn’t count because we are not on a jury, I disagree. There are two things that set this case apart from anything we’ve really seen before. First, is a child disappeared on the government’s watch, and the government is not being held accountable.
(B)FACT. Continues to be off the radar.
Second, a person is being kept away from her child for 3+ years, unable to confront her accuser, and who is to say that her accuser didn’t orchestrate the taking of the child, which btw should have never happened in a school to begin with.
(B) FACT. The accusation is in the instant matter and is not disputed. He disappeared on Skyline’s watch and everyone is acting like it was the State fair. It was during the school day people. It was during a time where there is a reasonable expectation of safety for a 7 year old.
This is not just about TH’s rights, it is about how the judicial system can treat someone, so it’s about all of our rights. Is this investigation going to last 13 years? What if it does, and then TH is found innocent? The bio mother of this child has already missed fundamental years. Some damage is already done. How much more shall we tolerate on the word of RSE.
(B) I would only add that regardless of where one falls on guilt or innocence, this situation has an absolute need for scrutiny that does not change. Get tired of me saying it or not. This could happen to anyone, in any jurisdiction if it remains unchecked in this case.
B
~~~~~~
Monumental synopsis
@MBS
Thanks I did not know I could use my maiden name if I wanted But the idea appeals to me Now I am old and all the folks are gone. But it just causes confusion So I guess not
To much paper work anyway
@Mom3.0 and everyone
A friend ran across a youtube video that explains why Never Talk to Police, She took notes from the 48 minute video and and sent them to me, knowing I was interested in THIS case.
The references to the speaker (in the notes) are to the speaker on the tape. link to youtube video is on the pdf. this was certainly an eye opener to me.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10147993/Never%20Talk%20to%20Police.pdf
Part 1
Youre welcome Blink and thanks for allowing the discussion-
RE erose says:
December 21, 2013 at 6:54 pm
@Mom3.0,
This is just not about KH or TH. It is about a child’s right to see her mother. There is no legal representation for Baby K in all of this. Custody has three sides, and only two are being represented.
—— I never said this was only about KH and TH. Yes erose this isnt just about KH and TH or even just little K it is about Kyron and his disappearance and it also is about a potential MFH plot also- unfortunately for little K all of these issues are intertwined with a divorce custody case.
Yes it is true little Kiara has no representation other than her father doing what he believes is in her best interests- thats my point-
Since Terri is the one that would be the person to question whether or not Kaine is looking out for their daughters best interests it is TERRI who should ask for a GAL
it is Terri who should NOT have dropped the request for visitation and custody
it is TERRI who should have fought the RO from day one-
all to ensure that Kitty was not subjected to Kaines total control seeing as: she told her friend De De that (pp) Kaine had at one time been “juicing” and was impatient and abusive to her and the children… & had told others that James grades and such were suffering and once removed from kaine By kaines request according to her James was happier and all had improved … she said to others he was bullying and overbearing toward her and overly demanding and controlling of her weight, her finances, her comings and goings etc which could all go toward his not being best suited to raise a female child surely knowing all this terri should have moved forward doing anything and everything to secure protection for her little baby and now 5 year old child) and it all shouldd have been done to ensure that little K was not left without her Mom
yet terri didnt do these things to help ensure Kiara was well protected- and she didnt fight the RO to ensure that there was no lapse in visitation or custody and most seem only to fault the court or kaine for these things which Terri and only Terri would be best suited to contest/address/request.
Cont Part 2
AJMO Peace
Part 2
re erose:
You wrote:
The reason TH stopped talking is that she was in the midst of a MFH allegation. Prior to that she did talk, and they did not believe her. What more can she offer? That is why she hired the best criminal attorney.
—
Erose, respectfully again you can not state these opinions as fact they are only one possible answer to the whys
Do you know the exact moment when terri “stopped talking”? Do you know what the reasons were that she did and then why she got one of the best criminal attornys? Can you say that the possibility does not exist that she did all of this because she is involved and wanted to beat the rap??
I cant
My point is there are many possibilities as to the whys- we do not know and to shut our minds off to all possibilities is NOT looking out for the victims of this case Kyron and Kitty
You wrote:
I disagree that TH is using this case in the same way that KH is. It has been stated “No talkie, No K****” or some such phrase.
—
Whoa wait kaine never said that- and respectfully how can you claim that Kaines lawyers are using the civil case to further a criminal investigation, and not be open to seeing how the defense could be doing the same to further their cause?
Cont Part 3
AJMO Peace
Part 3
reerose:
You wrote:
Her lawyers argue that they would like to defend the allegations of MFH, which is the reason she has been unable to see her child, however the court will not allow it.
–Which makes my point erose they are using the civil case to further their defense and in truth erose although I know you and Blink and most of BOC disagree, the MFH allegation is not the reason she has not been able to see her child- the RO was granted to Kaine on his fear of the MFH plot this is true= but it is also true that it was over his concerns of terris possible involvement with Kyrons disappearance and since we not even Blink, can rule out that possibility- then why are we so gung ho on reuniting this child with her mother who may have had something to do with her brothers disappearance?
it is also true that the RO was granted to Kaine over his fears of Terri trying to take the baby-
terri went to the gym to try and get kiara back which would have been her right at the time as
MockingbirdSings once wrote in part on this very thread :
MockingbirdSings says:
October 5, 2013 at 5:07 pm
snipped
“We need to keep in mind that it is legal (at least in Oregon) for either parent to take a child with them without the other parent’s knowledge and not return them – in the absence of a legal agreement to the contrary. Although the state does not condone keeping a child away from the other parent, it does expect the other parent to file something that can be dealt with in the court system, or there is nothing to enforce. TH, technically, could have done the same thing and moved to Medford, etc., but of course Kaine would have filed for custody right away. Not saying it’s her fault at all, but there has to be something on record to work with.
If a parent takes a child and there is no existing custody agreement, temporary or permanent, LE will try to contact that parent and check on the physical welfare of the child, but will not take the child for the other parent if the child appears to be well cared for.”
End snip
So you see erose, most may feel as though little Kitty was taken from her mothers arms and held hostage for three years over a MFH lie or a disappearance lie- but still the RO was granted over kaines reasonable fears at the time and it is terri and terri alone who chose not to fight that RO and who chose to drop her request for visitation and custody and because of this choice, little Kitty was left in the sole care of her father- for 3 years
Cont Part 4
AJMO peace
Part 4
Re Erose:
The reason we are *all* sounding a bit bias is that we tend to support one side only of the debate each time. I apologize for not acknowledging you have an open mind about her innocence.
Thanks for the apology and for acknowledging my openmindedness most appreciated. but JFTR I have not always supported one side of the debate each time- in fact i have even went back and supplied my countering earlier thoughts for the “opposite side” just to illustrate that i am not biased- but i do understand the point you are trying to make- I am unaware if you have always taken one side of the debate or solely beleived in her innocence so
If I may ask you erose, do you have an openmind to the possibility of her guilt?
If so I too apologize for not realizing your openmindness
You wrote-
About this being a crime blog, and the innocent ’til proven guilty blah, blah, blah doesn’t count because we are not on a jury, I disagree. There are two things that set this case apart from anything we’ve really seen before. First, is a child disappeared on the government’s watch, and the government is not being held accountable.
—-
Erose I never said blah blah- or thoughts of innocence on this crimeblog “dont count” only that we should not be held to the same instructions as a jury as this is a place to discuss and debate all possibilities as unlike a jury we are not sitting with the task of sending down a verdict which will potentially let a guilty person free or an innocent person to jail or death- we are not privy to all of the evidence in this case so I am only arguing that we must keep an openmind to all possibilities as we just dont know.
Cont Part 5
AJMO Peace
Part 5
Re erose
Part 5
RE erose-
Hey just wanted to add that I agree the schools failure should be on the radar
You wrote
Second, a person is being kept away from her child for 3+ years, unable to confront her accuser, and who is to say that her accuser didn’t orchestrate the taking of the child, which btw should have never happened in a school to begin with.
—
Erose , a person is being kept away from her child because that person did not fight the RO and dropped her request for visitation and custody of that child she finally stood up to fight the RO and instead of just letting it drop the judge put a no contact order in place- TH is now agreeing to fight for visitation and custody and is willing to submit to only limited Mh evaluations and that is why she has a chance now tro gain visitation and/or custody-
You wrote:
This is not just about TH’s rights, it is about how the judicial system can treat someone, so it’s about all of our rights. Is this investigation going to last 13 years? What if it does, and then TH is found innocent? The bio mother of this child has already missed fundamental years. Some damage is already done. How much more shall we tolerate on the word of RSE.
—Honestly erose, I get your anguish but sincerely what if she is guilty what if she did all the the things she is accused of, we cant know can we ? and if she did then Kitty should not be in her sole care nor should she be expected to have unsupervised visitation
Again this isnt just at the word of RSE and whose to say RSE word isnt better than Terris? I cant why do we all assume he is a liar ?
when it comes to the child I am with Kaine here, my fears of it all being true coupled with TH trying to get kitty out of the gym would have been enough for me to ask for an RO and terri had every opprotunity and right to fight that RO she chose not too until recently….
Blink wrote:
I would only add that regardless of where one falls on guilt or innocence, this situation has an absolute need for scrutiny that does not change. Get tired of me saying it or not. This could happen to anyone, in any jurisdiction if it remains unchecked in this case.
B
Blink guilt or innocence matters though…
in many divorces there are accusations some criminal many are false- and are addressed during the civil proceedings- and when there are children there are always attempts by the other parent to gain the child – many times as an educator we are warned during a divorce that the other parent may try to take the child- without documentation saying no from the courts, we are unable to interfere – so the only difference here is kaine beat Terri to the punch and filed an RO which she did not contest…
Honestly my friend I do not understand …you can not rule out that terri was involved in Kyrons dissappearance- and we know she tried to get kitty at the gym… hence the RO which she didnt contest..if she was involved do you think she should have unsupervised visitation with Kitty and if guilty wouldnt you want the most strigent of MH evaluations to ensure she wouldnt again utilize her child to get back at kaine?? Help me undrstand where you are coming from, maybe i am misunderstanding yr point
Cont part 6 the end
AJMO Peace
1. Few distinctions- TMH did not contest the EX PARTE emergency order. She could not do so without compromising her constitutional privileges and once again, I am suggesting to you that TMH was told she was facing arrest in this matter, as was her attorney. I also maintain that once that sting occurs, TMH had genuine concern that RSE WAS INVOLVED in taking Kyron, and in my estimation if that was the case, and she now knew Kaine was cooperating with LE under the presumption, I totally understood the legal decisions and as I sit her today, I would have absolutely done the same thing, and followed the advice of my attorney.
2. I really feel like I take the time to express my points at length, and so I guess I am not understanding why you are not understanding me, lol. This is very simple for me. TMH has never been charged with a crime, nor has she been named a suspect for any crime by LE. Now we have seen the flimsy impetus for this whole FAPA order ( I know I answered a post of yours at length on this and iirc you were going to ponder it and get back to it.. happens, thats fine, but the allegation does not even meet the statute to charge her. That means that this whole hot mess is generated by some language barrier uncorroborated landscaper that TMH herself brought to LE.
Do you realize that TMH has been given less rights with her child than someone who has been charged in a criminal matter, regardless? Why are we not presuming innocence of someone who has the right to it and has NOT been charged?
Why would I ever support constitutional breaches in any matter, regardless- because as I said, under our system it can happen to anyone, and these rights are unalienable. With the exception of course to those who might be in the country illegally.
I can’t say whether TMH is involved, but I have spent over 4 years and thousands of investigative hours as well as BOC staff and I can say with certainty that I have seen no evidence she is or was, and I have definitely seen evidence of involvement of a suspect who has never been tied to her or anyone else.
I do know that if Rees cannot affirm that the mfh investigation is not precluded from a successful prosecution by some means ( I am throwing a bone here, we already know it cannot, but this will come out in a stipulation or admissability hearing requested by Houze, mark my words) then not only does he have to admit that, but then that data is extracted from the Kyron disappearance and subject to public disclosure.
How would the fact that RSE was put up to this whole mess via LE to link to alleged criminal incidents so they could justify the hot mess that has ensued change your opinion?
That is what this about and it has nothing to do with Baby K’s interests.
Which I would add, I posted a great deal of legal basis for that statement yesterday. I think Engel’s statements about Houze looking to know what LE knows is laughable. Houze knows they don’t have a shred of evidence that implicates TMH and all avenues to that theory were LE generated- the exact opposite of investigation 101.
So to your point, I agree that evaluations are in order, and so they are being conducted. However, as I also posited previously, the “LE told me cloak” Kaine is wearing around needs to be challenged and it will be eventually, of that I am sure, and my bigger concern is that this little girl was the victim of custodial interference and alienation of her rights first and foremost.
Baby K has the right to unimpeded relationships with both parents absent a finding to the contrary- and to date, we know CPS has never been involved. Why do we suppose that is? There is one child missing from that home, and the other kept from her Mom for over 4 years. Both Ky and Baby K have rights that are not being protected here and this is why I am adamant that it has nothing to do with guilt or innocence because nobody has ever been afforded due process for such allegations, and in the face of that- these children continue to suffer.
As far as parents making false criminal allegations about one another, such activity would generate a CPS investigation and then such findings would be presented to the court as appropriate. Remember Casey’s? The system in that instance is identical to the instant matter. Hearsay does not come in.
B
What puzzles me is why TM waited 3 and a half years to start fighting for her daughter? Why not sooner? She certainly had a lawyer much sooner.
How could she wait so long?
That’s what makes one wonder, especially since Lawyer Houze is known for negotiating lighter sentences or penalties for his clients (even guilty ones). The “wondering” makes one wonder if the mom had a reason to not try to get her daughter sooner.
RedRose, respectfully- this is why I ask you to read earlier comments. Your post smacks of not doing that and there are at least 30K posts on this topic.
Let’s try this- in your opinion and research for the converse of course- why do you opine TMH “has not had the reason to get her daughter sooner?”
B
@grace…The federal Civil Rights Act requires state courts that receive federal funds to provide interpreters to LEP individuals in civil and criminal cases. These interpreters must be provided without charge. Do some jurisdictions shirk their responsibilities? Unfortunately, they do, but that does not mean they did so during RSE’s deposition.
Hi Grace. They did have an interpreter for the deposition that Houze attended. It’s in the footnotes. They met the OCR requirement.
The office of Civil Rights does not, however, require interpreters when employers of landscapers take them out to lunch and solicit them to commit a murder for hire. Or attempt to do so.
That is what the issue is here. Houze asked Rudy if an interpreter was present at the alleged “attempt to solicit Rudy to kill Kaine”. That tells me that either Houze was immediately intuitive regarding Rudy’s English abiity, or he has know all along that limited language skills could have caused all sorts of problems.
Here’s the crux of the landscaper’s testimony, imo.
Did Bobby O require a translator when he first met with Rudy, and/or when he first contacted him? If he did then that translator was partial to whatever “deal” Houze suggested at the hearing.
If not, then, yes, I think Rudy does need to be talking to the OCR through his lawyer, if he hasn’t already.
Because how much of what Bobby, etc. was telling him did he even understand, regarding a sting or what they wanted him to say about the “meeting”.
Thinking about Dede’s refusal to do the sting. She could weigh all aspects of the issue. And decided that she simply could not do that.
What about that encounter with O’donnell did not allow Rudy to say something like …..”No she never says anything about the boy….I think she was saying something like hates her hubby, wants to get him away…not the boy….nevermind, she didn’t do anything about it….just talk..”
But instead to do the sting?
Cuz he is saying now…..”If it were up to me, I’d be out of this”.
He is NOT saying….”Maybe if we get answers from Ms Horman that little boy will come back”
Part 6
The End
Re erose
@Mom3.0,
Two more things…
Do you think if Baby K were not being held by the DA as a carrot on a stick in front of TH she would have supervised visitation by now?
—-
NO I dont and I do not agree that the DA is holding Kiara as a carrot- thats just sick –
I do not believe that she would have supervised access to kiara by now because she refuses to participate fully in all MH evaluations she refuses to speak on her behalf or to the best intersts of Kitty she did not until recently contest the RO or again renew an interest in visitation or custody…
she wishes the court to rule based on expert testimony only in a generalized sense…
as we all know from the WM3 trial, the CA trial and the JA trial, you can pay an expert to say just about anything -even if there is no evidence to support the claims and little to no education to support the expert status-
there is a possibility that she harmed kyron inorder to punish the father so based on this and all of the above NO I do not believe she would have had access to kitty by now as she did not contest especially since the powell tragedy happened the court would have been crazy to grant visitation even supervised under these terms.
You wrote:
Convicted murderers have the right to supervised visitation with their children. TH has not even been named a suspect, so I just don’t get how this makes any sense at all.
–
No one stood in the way of Terri gaining access to her child other than terri as she chose not to fight the RO she dropped the request for visitation and custody so I fail to see why it is hard to understand why it is that she hasnt gained visitation or custody even supervised with kitty.
As to being named a suspect or not- again she has not been able to see kitty because of the RO an order she did not fight- and when she finally did after 3 years contest the RO a NCO was put in place still it its only now with her choice to move forward and fight that she has a chance at gaining Kitty or visitation
You wrote:
True, Miranda Rights weren’t read to TH because she was not arrested, but because she was in fact a suspect, she should not have spoken to LE without an attorney present. I was presenting a hypothetical, and my point was if LE wants to talk to someone they suspect of a crime, best advise seems don’t cooperate without an attorney, or look what happens.
___
This happened because terri spoke to the police without an attorney present?
De De said (PP Kaine was the first to have an attorney between them so could it be that the family had attorneys early on IDK)
but this didnt happen because TH spoke to LE without an attorney present-
if thats the case then De De would have been in the clear all along-
this seems to have happened to both terri and De De because their stories at first seemed off – their timelines at first seemed off and there seemed to be a gap of unaccounted times which coincided with the poss disappearance
- add to that for Terri it seems she failed polys and she engaged in risky questionable flirtatious behaviors with Cooke and it would seem RSE and those convos seemed similar in nature which seemed to back up RSE accounts…
this happened because terri was caught in lies – she hired a landscaper behind her husbands back she told several different accountings of the day – the marriage- she was in this predicament because she had voiced resentments against kaine and kyron…
it is again terris actions and inactions that put her in this predicament- as much as any other reason
Blink wrote:
Not to butt in- but none of us know if TMH was mirandized- although I agree she likely was not, and I say this because when I heard O’Donnell did not record the interviews with her- first, I call BS. Then, I call pin the tail on the Miranda card- left in the wallet in the car, or some other convenience. Mr. Moulton did not presume TMH was about to be arrested from her.
Thanks for weighing Blink- understood- but wouldnt Houze fight this- as Baez did stating that she was mirandized or she thought she was not free to leave or was a suspect…IDK just asking.
AJMO Peace
thanks for the discussion
Never. TMH was never arrested or indicted. He has no dog in the fight.
B
grassohpper hi I have that Utube video on my favorites her it is without even opening yr PDF:
I have watched it I agree with it- except when I am speaking to a missing child case – as if it were my child again if it were me and my child God forbid – I would not care i would as Blink once said stand naked in the center of town if I thought it would help bring my child home-
i still agree with Lea in this regard PP I would do anything and everything LE asked for my loved one to come home-
Thanks for the link you are blessed to have such friends GH.
Peace and AJMO
forgot to link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
sorry
Sorry, B. I sometimes skim, and sometimes in the middle of reading one train of thought, I don’t look back and check, just suddenly write out an idea that comes to mind. Will research a bit more in future.
@RedRose says:December 21, 2013 at 11:16 pm
vw says:
December 21, 2013 at 11:20 pm
@grace…The federal Civil Rights Act requires state courts that receive federal funds to provide interpreters to LEP individuals in civil and criminal cases. These interpreters must be provided without charge. Do some jurisdictions shirk their responsibilities? Unfortunately, they do, but that does not mean they did so during RSE’s deposition.
Hi Grace. They did have an interpreter for the deposition that Houze attended. It’s in the footnotes. They met the OCR requirement.
The office of Civil Rights does not, however, require interpreters when employers of landscapers take them out to lunch and solicit them to commit a murder for hire. Or attempt to do so.
~~~~~~~~
Grace says, Spare me the sarcasm, Vwoolf. I don’t appreciate it.
~~~~~~~~
Vw says, That is what the issue is here. Houze asked Rudy if an interpreter was present at the alleged “attempt to solicit Rudy to kill Kaine”. That tells me that either Houze was immediately intuitive regarding Rudy’s English abiity, or he has know all along that limited language skills could have caused all sorts of problems.
~~~~~~~~
Immediately intuitive? Here’s another possible scenario. TH has told Houze that she could never understand anything RSE said to her due to the language barrier, and Houze is running with that ball. Can’t say I blame him. That’s what lawyers do.
grasshopper says:
December 21, 2013 at 9:33 pm
Even if T were accused, even if she had been indicted or arrested or even convicted, wouldn’t she be able to have supervised visitation with her daughter? What makes this situation different, except for the judges that cooperated with DA’s strategy?
——————————————————
I certainly don’t know everything there is to know about visits behind bars, but I can tell you what I do know. A family court judge can order visits with an incarcerated parent if it is in the best interest of the child, the child was not the object of abuse by that parent, and a relationship is expected to continue after the parent is released. The supervisor of the jail and the environment of the facility also play a role.
In the case I am familiar with, the supervisor of the jail (2 different jails) had to determine if there was an appropriate place to hold a visit, appropriate supervision available, etc. Both supervisors that I know of were very reluctant to approve visits and had the power to overrule the judge’s order. Both did allow it after long delays. There are 2 prisons – one men’s and one women’s – that I know of in Oregon which are set up to facilitate parent/child visits. Where you are assigned is also influenced by space in any particular facility, so there are no guarantees.
Not trying to give all the details, just saying that it isn’t automatic and it isn’t simple or a sure thing even if ordered. My guess is that if she had been arrested, etc., she might have had visits by now although it depends on a lot of factors.
@Gracie: yes— I do understand about the court’s requirements regarding LEP clients. My point was that overall, the issue of language of RSE, the sting, what he “understood”— whatever this plays out to be—and assumptions on the part of others who may also assume what RSEs proficiency was regarding inferences and analysis of what he was or wasn’t being asked to perform. What occurs in the courtroom will indeed be covered with proper and fitting translation. What is in question, however, is the communication between TMH & RSE, and subsequently RSE and LE. ¿Como se dice sting?
If O’Donnell did not record TH’s lengthy interviews, my bet is he didn’t record those of RSE, or the deal, or provide a translator, or an attorney. Not the mcso way. His attorney spoke in Court as though an advocate for JK’s “rulings,”
not RSE’s interests.
Complying with O’Donnell, DA, & as his attorney pointed out, JK’s rulings to prevent anyone but LE questioning him, certainly kepts Rudy aloof from scrutiny in the abduction itself.
It’s possible over chips & salsa he said to Terri, Lemme arrange to kill your husband..
Then we can be together. And she replied, No, Kyron needs him. Anotherwords, the idea was his originally.
I think now, from reading a couple of the FB “hater” pages about TMH, that my opinion on bio mom DY’s “issues” with her are so profoundly unresolved that I wish I could sit DY down, get ‘er drunk and play heavy metal music until she finally explodes and vents about a decade worth of rage toward her “rival.” Perhaps, then, with a cleared mind, she could focus totally on the investigation that has obviously not found her son.
The horrible page on FB that refers to “Kitty” and even claims that “new mommy is thin and pretty” was a revelation for me. These people are focused on TMH as homewrecker. They are obsessed with the physical beauty of a female heroine making her a superior mother/wife. They see the opportunity to not only criticize TMH’s looks (which are not bad — she’s just not Cindy Crawford), but to use that kind of catty-female attack to justify denial of due process in a court of law.
TMH is meeting her overdue justice this way, in their very disturbed and angry minds. Because she (and apparently not KH) destroyed “beautiful” mom DY’s marriage and home and time with her own son (repeat — in their minds KH had nothing to do with that), the abduction of Kyron as a separate issue has not occurred to them, and will not become a focus for them. What they are doing is destroying the homewrecker, and it just so happens that they can use a child’s disappearance to pile on their wrath. These people on FB are not trying to find Kyron. They are trying to make sure that “fat” and “ugly” second wives remain despised 24/7 while the “beautiful” “real” mother is heroically preserved, almost like folklore/mythology.
This focus on physical beauty has bugged me for a while whenever I’ve wandered off to read what other people think about this case. I couldn’t put my finger on why it was such a big deal to some people, until recently.
As part of the investigation, or of any investigation, what I call the peripheral noise surrounding a case can contain clues to motive. So, instead of viewing “haters” as a bunch of angry nincompoops online who are stalking TMH, perhaps among them is the person who knows what happened to Kyron Horman.
Could someone in Oregon simply not be able to accept that “the beautiful, real” mother did not have primary custody of her son, while the “ugly homewrecking FAT” stepmother had “the beautiful, real” mother’s son every day and no, no, no that is not RIGHT! (Think: clenched fist pounding on table someplace). So many FB pages have come and gone about TMH being a physical image fare less attractive that DY. That is a recurring theme among all the haters. Demonize the tramp who stole the husband!
The true arsonist, it is known, will often enjoy standing in the crowd gaping at the fire he started.
@NelMel. I don’t think SZ spends any time on these folks or their pages. That is not how his gratification comes.
wrt ” my opinion on bio mom DY’s “issues” with her are so profoundly unresolved”
you’d clearly be a great student landlord, but imo your cure for DY does not treat her underlying problems, which have
zero to do with TMH. Desiree’s adjustment issues began long before TMH entered her husband’s life. My guess is also K married her in the oldfashioned way to give her his ins plan & his boy his name & had no intention of remaining, and she knew it. The “too bad” wrt Kyron is her OB didn’t call cps to evaluate this very depressed, had filed for divorce, medically at risk mother’s ongoing caregiving plan.
Because he came into the world behind the 8 ball–predating Terri’s care.
@Kat. TY for your professional experience & teaching from which I learned.
After 7 years of HS/college Spanish & a summer in Spain, I was far from fluent (tho comfortable in the
subjunctive, would not have been fluent in local idioms & cultural references the native birn have, & as Malty
said even within Mexico there is such locale diversity. But by age 35 when dealing with yardworkers & cleaning ladies
I could hardly remember “manana” & certainly communication in either language was best done by drawings as someone said. In retrospect that was because these workers lacked any education (years of schooling) in their native language in their countries of origin.
Not proud, I flunked Spanish. Full disclosure and all that.
B
btw NelMel. Desiree saying Kyron “saved my
life” is real work to lay on a newborn–it’s a role reversal
– and shows her state of mind prior to his birth.
agreed.
B
http://facebook.whotalking.com/post/bob+briede
“Brandi Snook: Timeline Photos
We are proud to announce that ‘Team2fit’ is now affiliated with the Xtreme Edge gym!
Yes, you heard that correctly!
What’s the bonus?!
~ Team2fit members now get a $9.99 membership with ZERO initiation!
~ FREE boot camp classes every Saturday at 2pm. Includes: Live DJ and a studio that’s setup to hold over 150k of surround sound.
~ Ability to talk to the professionals about supplements so you can jump start on that fat burning, healthy and toned lifestyle you’ve dreamt of!
Email, Follow, Like and share today! Join the team, Team2Fit that is! You’ll be glad you did!
Pictured: The Co-Founders and Bob Briede.
Xtreme Edge Location: 16365 NW Twin Oaks Dr, Beaverton, OR 97006
6 days ago – View – ”
—
A whotalking overview beats going directly to pages imo for general info.
So, how does $9.99 monthly, no initiation, make money for a gym?
or even break even? the answer is embedded in the ad, imo.
You know, if Terri reported a dealor of steroids to her husband Kaine at a gym to LE, we know whose gym it was.
And he was terminated by the parent co after a long hx (WHY?) with his consequent lawsuit against parent co.,
and was about to open his own upfront-$ intensive gym. A report to LE about dealing at a site he managed would have been quite the monkey wrench.
—-
cars, cars, cars.
http://www.team2fit.com/marketing-team.html
Same Snook?
https://touch.www.linkedin.com/?sessionid=8419817906241536&as=false&rs=false#public-profile/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fpub%2Fbrandi-snook-marketing-specialist%2F64%2F6b1%2F825
https://mobile.twitter.com/AskforBrandi
http://youtu.be/AUX3DqzBFxU
https://m.facebook.com/AskforBrandi?id=281348835249359&refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FAskforBrandi
@Rose,
You stated:
So, how does $9.99 monthly, no initiation, make money for a gym?
or even break even? the answer is embedded in the ad, imo.
Re:
http://facebook.whotalking.com/post/bob+briede
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The short answer is ads on your link.
I was surprised to learn that they are using Burst.net & Burstnet.com
in addition to the other ads such as Google-analytics & doubleclick and the like.
To find the ads, go to the above page, right click & select ‘Inspect element.’ Then go to ‘Sources’ and Control o & you will get a list of the ads on that page.
Learn more about Burstnet:
http://www.thewhir.com/web-hosting-news/burstnet-cto-joe-marr-comments-on-blogetery-shutdown
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/shutdown-of-blogging-site-sparks-dispute/?_r=0
http://readwrite.com/2010/07/19/burstnet_statement_links_blogetery_to_al-qaeda#awesm=~oqN0eobLzjaFxF
BurstNet said in a statement on Monday that it had shut down Blogetery after the F.B.I informed it that the site included “a link to terrorist material,” including bomb-making instructions and an Al
Qaeda list of Americans targeted for assassination. CNet News reported Monday that the material was connected to a new Al Qaeda recruitment magazine.
While that was only one issue related to 1 server per Burstnet,there are customer complaints:
http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/burstnet/scranton-pennsylvania-18501-0591/burstnet-beware-keith-vannan-stay-away-from-this-company-worst-customer-service-ever-1099063
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy_4qw4bzHo
And I can confirm that someone/s has been using Burstnets’ ips for spamming via my PC for years. I’m sure that I’m not the only victim & likely there are many thousands who may not be aware that their PC is being used/abused/hacked for the purposes of spamming & possibly DDos attacks as well.
Somehow Burst net is affiliated with Volumedrive Inc and the owner of same Josh Bohanon, who is in a bit of hot water:
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=43f030d127f6d444659b3df4853035ee&p=8953474#post8953474
http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings/volumedrive.com
http://technologyplusblog.com/2013/news/internet/volumedrive-down-august-2013/
(snipped)
As far as parents making false criminal allegations about one another, such activity would generate a CPS investigation and then such findings would be presented to the court as appropriate. Remember Casey’s? The system in that instance is identical to the instant matter. Hearsay does not come in.
B
___
Houze nor Terri have come forward with any indication a false allegation has been made. The moment they do it will all change, legally and with regards to public opinion, IMO.
AS- that is not true. HouzeOfBunch have accused that directly of Kaine and Bobby O’Donnell. Bunch has stated in open court that LE has lied, and Kantor responded that they do all the time. It is in the record.
B
Terri, Houze, Carol or Larry could have called CPS to inform false allegations were being made. I wonder why they didn’t?
AS- heart u. Not reasonable or how it works. Especially with someone represented and under FAPA order.
B
Rose says: So, how does $9.99 monthly, no initiation, make money for a gym?
or even break even? the answer is embedded in the ad, imo.
————————————-
Come on, Rose – embedded? I’d say it sticks out like a . . . well, a big thing that sticks out!
(Anyone who laughs at that comment probably has grandkids and watches too many Curious George stories.)
Maybe some of these things work, but it sure sounds like a traveling medicine show – surround sound and snake oil every Saturday afternoon – what a show!
Hi Blink,
Since i prolly won’t get on to read up till MN…..just a …
HAPPY WINTER SOLSTICE to all! Welcome…Yule!
Blink thanks for your taking the time to respond-
Sorry, I didnt realize you were waiting for a response on my earlier ponderings- I ponder everything you ever wrote especially responses directly to me but dont always respond- each do however help to shape my thinking and later responses… i apologize, I didnt think it rude, until your inquiry as sometimes i ponder but just dont pen
I can go back to that post, or I can just address yr latest thoughts on the issues
Before I pen another epic novel I wanted to alert you to my Part6 that seems stuck in Mod-
..Mom3.0 says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
December 21, 2013 at 11:41 pm
figured i should wait in case you added a response
again my apologies
AJMO Peace
IIRC, KH sd something to the effect of he wanted the Wall of Hope moved to the gym location so that ‘he’ had to look at it everyday as he went to work- meaning the SZ (but of course he didn’t say SZ.) Anyone recall that comment?
@Blink – your comment at December 21, 2013 at 11:08 pm
Brava!
Thank you. I continue to feel like this case is some sort of Truman Show.
B
AS- that is not true. HouzeOfBunch have accused that directly of Kaine and Bobby O’Donnell. Bunch has stated in open court that LE has lied, and Kantor responded that they do all the time. It is in the record.
B
___
I searched and this is as close as I could find:
Houze said the current, intractable situation exists because of the steady “drumbeat of accusations” leveled against his client in court pleadings and in public, including on the national TV show “Dr. Phil” in September by Kaine Horman.
“They made tactical choices. They think it’s more expedient to beat up on Terri Horman in the media. They’ve vilified her,” Houze said.
“The innocent citizen in this case would be put in an unconscionable risk that no one could possibly know,” Houze said. “We’re all in the dark. We’re all guessing” in the absence of the criminal investigative material he had sought.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/10/judge_says_terri_horman_must_s.html
Houze’s word choice is interesting. He’s saying accusations have been made but didn’t call them false. He said the innocent citizen but didn’t say my innocent client.
Did Houze outline the concern of false charges in his request to subpoena O’Donnell? I couldn’t find that document to verify.
Here Kantor outlines why the subpoena request will be quashed. He also outlines how the criminal case overlaps with this civil case and when he can and can’t allow information from one to seep into the other.
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/Order%20Regarding%20Depositions.pdf
LOL… thanks Blink, for your patience and your kindness. I may be way off on all this but I am learning.
All I can ask.
B
Rose & Jeff U2R2 kind, and Blink, we live here for you to butt in.
Rose says:
December 21, 2013 at 6:13 pm
The Shortest Day
by Susan Cooper
And so the Shortest Day came and the year died
And everywhere down the centuries of the snow-white world
Came people singing, dancing,
To drive the dark away.
They lighted candles in the winter trees;
They hung their homes with evergreen;
They burned beseeching fires all night long
To keep the year alive.
And when the new year’s sunshine blazed awake
They shouted, revelling.
Through all the frosty ages you can hear them
Echoing behind us – listen!
All the long echoes, sing the same delight,
This Shortest Day,
As promise wakens in the sleeping land:
They carol, feast, give thanks,
And dearly love their friends,
And hope for peace.
And now so do we, here, now,
This year and every year.
——-
Often a young boy has recited this at the conclusion of winter solstice performances. So I post this in honor of Kyron, who is echoing behind us… May the darkness overlaying his abduction be driven away in the New Year.
***************
Thank you for the lovely poem, Rose. I truly enjoyed it and I echo your sentiment. Re-posting, in case someone missed it. Lovely.
@Mom3.0,
I spent quite some time pondering TH’s guilt, I feel it is only fair to give equal time to her innocence. Initially, I was led to believe that TH was responsible for her stepson’s disappearance. That she single handedly took the child from the school. It was an isolated incident, and who could fault a school if a child willingly left with a parent for a doctor’s appointment.
Then, the story changed. TH was sufficiently alibied during a critical time, which has been constantly misreported, that we began looking for her accomplices. Suspect were her Mexican, lesbian and sext buddy friends along with anyone else she might know who buys cell phones over the counter, or maybe they were all in cahoots to kill a little boy, or use him in porn, or spirit him away to a better life, or accidentally drop him in a well or something.
In fact posters were distributed with pictures of TH, her friend, and lists of roads they might have driven the day of June 4, between the hours LE was investigating. Anyone wanting 15 minutes of fame could just step right up and be on national TV, if only they saw a red headed person in a white truck on June 4.
Then I heard TH tried to have her husband killed by hiring her landscaper and that pretty much cinched it for everyone. If she can try to have her husband killed, she probably tried to have her stepson killed. Then she was accused of trying to abduct her daughter out of the gym daycare center, before she was even served a RO!! (Wait, what?)
I think I heard there was a fire at her parent’s garage when she was younger. Suspicious, serial killers have tendencies like that. Let’s see, she threw out some old art supplies while substitute teaching, and oh yeah, left a bookcase out in the rain. Both her ex-husbands have some negative impressions of her. (While most people’s exes have only good things to say about them.)
Have I left anything out? (If I have I’m sure you’ll tell me, LOL my friend) ‘Cuz I think I’ve contemplated it all.
O/T: I just heard that cake out in the rain song in my head and had a much needed laugh, thank you. When our children were little and we were commuting or on long trips visiting family we used to take turns making about ridiculous songs about nonsense and crack each other up. I sang what is termed the wet cake song around here and told them that it was an actual song. They did not believe me until one day a few years ago they had it on glee. They were squealing.
I recall ( but could not link) that both ex’s were interviewed and neither had a negative word to say about TMH as a parent, in fact, as I recall, they were complimentary.
For me, the suspicious fire crud was flat out malice intended to go after her parents funds.
B
NelMel says:
December 21, 2013 at 7:35 pm
Great post and history NelMel, thank you.
@erose says:
December 21, 2013 at 6:54 pm
Bravo. I do not speak/write as well as many here, but I agree with you 100%.
There, but for the Grace of God, go I. Everyone, everyone should put themselves in TMH’s shoes. One’s word against another’s, one’s world against another’s. Something, something has caused this anomaly. Something, since the beginning of this case, if we had all the information on its handling, would tell us why this case has become so complex and different. So complex that our judicial system has nothing to reference in the past 200+years. Why is that? What caused all this? Who is, as Blink says, behind the green curtain? It’s certainly not Terri.
Remember when DY said something like “she never thought it would get this big” paraphrasing. When I heard that, I could not imagine what the heck she was talking about….but look where this case is now. What did DY know back then that we don’t? (I’m gonna have to go look for that quote, maybe after Christmas, just trying to catch up on all of the posts in between cookies, wrapping, cleaning, decorating and more cooking.)
Yes, Venetia.
But K’s said many things….