McStay Family Murdered: Will Desert Graves Yield Their Killers?
Deserted in the Desert
Gianni Family Photo
Gianni Martelli McStay had rock star hair at only 4years old. His little brother Joseph, affectionately nicknamed Chubba- did as well. They both rocked a beanie like no other little dudes.
Chubba Family Photo
Gianni and Chubba were as inseparable in life as they were in death when they were recovered in a shallow grave in the Mojave Desert on November 11.
Their parents, Joseph, 40 and Summer McStay, 43, were located in a separate grave nearby.
A 3rd gravesite was found-but empty. A protected source not authorized to speak to the media has confirmed that at least one of the parent’s remains was bound by an electrical cord.
While formal DNA comparisons and autopsy protocols are pending, the manner of death in all four victims have been declared homicides.
Just about 50 yards off the intersection of Route 15 and Quarry Rd the family that San Diego County Sheriff’s Department (SDCSD) believed was “likely” voluntarily missing on their own and living in Mexico, was recovered in a 30 hour excavation process. An off road motorcycle enthusiast called the San Bernardino County Sheriff when he came across what he suspected was human remains.
Last April SDCSD forwarded the McStay case to the FBI based on their conclusions that the McStay’s had McGone to Mexico, following a lengthy complaint of their handling of the case by Patrick McStay, Joseph’s Father. Troy Dugal, previous lead investigator of the McStay case, appeared on several news and cable television programs over the last three years explaining there was “overwhelming” circumstantial evidence the family of four that was pictured crossing the border into Tijuana, Mexico the evening of February 8th, 2010 was in fact, the McStays.
Following the recovery, San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Office will maintain jurisdiction of the investigation.
Frenemies.. Frenethieves.. Friends.. Family or Cartel?
Who brutally murders innocent children and dumps them in a hole they dug in the desert?
Logically- someone who is very familiar with the area. Of course it is just as shocking and horrific to murder anyone, but it takes a specific brand of evil to murder a baby. Make that two.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that either Joseph or Summer McStay had any ties to drugs, associates with ties to drugs or cartel, at any time. None.
Contrary to a top selling book on the case, “No Goodbyes” by Rick Baker, there has never been any evidence whatsoever that Summer McStay was some sort of closeted psychotic and homicidal type. The book goes on to malign members of both Joseph and Summer’s families and in some cases outright accuses same of extortion or stealing. Baker’s subsequent public theory is that Summer murdered Joseph and everyone should be looking for her and the boys in Mexico.
Not surprisingly , Baker has requested Amazon pull his book from available stock and has offered refunds to prior purchases. Popular online sleuth sites previously promoting “No Goodbye’s” have since either deleted it’s hundreds of posts endorsing Baker, or moved them to a member’s only private viewing area.
Albeit obtusely, Baker does touch on a troubling and serious abuse allegation concerning Joseph McStay’s oldest son from his first marriage, Jonah, and his step-father, Michael McFadden. He writes summer filed a complaint with Child Protective Services after she and Joseph recorded a conversation with Jonah and placed a copy of same with a private party for safekeeping. Blinkoncrime.com has been able to independently verify that is accurate, but that the investigation was not known to be completed until shortly after the McStay’s disappearance. Under California probate law, Jonah would be an heir to the McStay estate or as otherwise provisioned in the instance of an existing will.
Interviewed by Laura Ling for E! Investigation, Joseph McStay’s web administrator Dan Kavanaugh claims he was the first to become concerned. In Baker’s book, he refers to him as a suspect and details how he alleges he was funneling cash from McStay’s business account before he or anyone else knew the family was missing. Kavanaugh has an unrelated open criminal matter in San Diego County according to court records.
Chase Merritt- Joseph McStay’s business partner in his water fountain design and installation business was the last number ever dialed from his phone at 8:28PM on February 4th. Merritt joined McStay in a lunch meeting earlier that afternoon where they discussed a proposal for a very large car wash chain to feature custom fountains in each facility. According to family friend MacCargar McGyver, McStay was very excited about the opportunity. Merritt claims he passed a voluntary lie detector test, and that he was adamant that Joseph McStay would never have taken his family to Mexico and has always believed they met with foul play.
McGYver spent several days leading up to February 4th at the McStay home due to a painter Summer hired not returning to complete the job. McGyver introduced Summer and Joseph and by all accounts was a close confidant of the couple.
Patrick McStay, Joseph’s Father living in Texas has had some harsh words for the investigation into the disappearance of his son, daughter in law and grandsons.
“…most botched, inept investigation I’ve ever seen in my entire life.”
He also believes very strongly that the list of suspects with motive to kill his family members is very short. Three, to be exact.
He said the department didn’t even bother to contact him to tell him his son’s remains had been found.
“I got a message from someone [on Thursday] on Facebook telling me to go and read an article,” McStay said. “The minute I read the article, I knew it was him.”
“I have exhausted and have so much information on three possible persons of interest. All have a motive.”
The three individuals are not connected to each other, but all of them seem like likely candidates. Patrick says one of them seems to be a particularly likely suspect: he’s a wealthy man with a long rap sheet that includes charges of attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon and burglary. McStay says he, too, has a motive for killing his son.
Although Mr. McStay did not reference him by name, he may be referring to Michael James McFadden, who was arrested in July 1998 and charged with attempted murder and a litany of other felonies including great bodily harm to a child:
459/460(a) PC – Burglary 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
422 PC – Assault 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
273.5(a) PC – Domestic Violence 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
12022.7(d) PC – Infliction of great bodily injury on a child under the age of five … 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
422 PC – Assault 07/16/1999 02/25/2000 Dismissed
240 PC – Attempt to inflict violent force on another person. 07/16/1999 02/25/2000 Dismissed
245(a)(1) PC – Assault with a deadly weapon other than a firearm 07/16/1998 01/18/2000 Pled Guilty
12022.7(d) PC – Infliction of great bodily injury on a child under the age of five… 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
422 PC – Criminal Terrorist Threat 07/16/1999 01/18/2000 Pled Guilty
664-187 PC – Attempted Murder 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
You will note some of the charges are from 1998, others 1999 on the anniversary date, McFadden successfully negotiated a plea agreement and only pled to criminal terroristic threats and assault with a deadly weapon other than a firearm. Both felonies.
In the complaint he lodged against the detectives in SDCSD, Patrick McStay specifically references failure to interview key suspects he provided to LE directly.
Given the location of the bodies, it would seem that whoever is responsible would at least want investigators to think McFadden was involved. As a self-proclaimed mountain bike “racer”, McFadden has participated in several bike events in various locations all along the Route 15 Mojave corridor. SBCSO says they will be re-interviewing everyone in the case and have no suspects.
There have been no named suspects to date and the investigation is ongoing. Memorial or Funeral arrangements for the McStay’s have not yet been announced . LATE EDIT: The family and friends of the McStay family will gather at the grave site in Victorville, on Joseph’s McStay’s birthday.
To be continued in Part 2: Analysis of the last day of their lives points to involvement by someone they knew.
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How about these activities by Baker?
http://rickgbaker.blogspot.com/2013/11/justice-is-long-overdue.html?m=1
Yanks a book
closes a blog
opens a blog
erases all comments on his blog at once
stating they are accusing Chase, Kavanaugh & Maccarger
falsely, but justice will be meted out shortly
goes ballistic in his most recent blog on Mikey for an (undoubtedly) thank you posed photo
with the group of laborers who dug & erected the crosses, blasting out to reporters.
I have been generous in my comments about Baker because at one time I thought he was at least well-intentioned to start. I am about to change my mind.
Talk about disassociative identity crisis or projection. Did he drink out of Joy Wray’s cup at one time or something? Wow.
B
Blink- Im trying to wait patiently for your part 2- there is so much Id ;like to ask but illtry to wait it out
regarding the video at the border- it is a strange
Part of the reason LE believed it was them is becuase the woman was wearing a similar jacket and ugg boots-
I dont know how many ugg boots summer may have had but in the video of the home – near the backdoor seem to be the pair of ugg boots that she wore in pictures…
also the woman in the video is holding the childs hand with her right hand-
and her purse is over her left- from the videos I have watched of the family Summer seems to be right-handed- if this is so, thtas strange for a dominate right person to carry a purse on the left
Just something that seemed odd to me-
I wonder if the any clothing/shoes were in the graves and if it matches what was worn in the border video…
This case is so baffling all around
Lots of great thoughts on the whys of the shallow graves
WARNING somewhat graphic no disrespect intended
What i have been wondering about is if they were placed there soon after disappearance- maybe the ground was too hard It was Feb… maybe the person gave up perhaps he/she initially wanted to have separate graves for all-
The thing is if the graves were dug before hand then the person would have logically either made one mass grave or two graves for parents then children but not shallow- or 4 not three- it wouldnt matter if ground was too hard they could have more time in planning…
heres one theory
could it be that while Dad was doing morning business out of town the bad guy was already in the home with the Mom and two children? and BG took the opportunity … thinking Dad was gone or would be gone for much longer…. – hence 3 graves not 4… Dad comes home lets dogs out …. Dad conts to make business calls unaware that something is amiss- and then BG waits for opportune time to disable Dad- or p ties him with cord from home
But if this scenario happened then where would he think Mom and boys were….or were the boys unharmed at that point and BG was known to dad and made him think all was ok with mom and boys …IDK maybe dad just thought she/they were napping upstairs…IDk
IdK just thinking as to why only one adult seems to have been restrained…
Which one is important to any theory
another theory-
Could BG have had one of the family dig graves then perhaps person broke free after 3rd was dug and 4th was never started?
grace you said the dogs were outside and unharmed because whatever happened didnt happen in the home- I agree this could be the case
But also even though there wasnt any/copious amounts of blood that doesnt mean someone wasnt slapped into submission or other… No I dont think its possible they were bloodily bludgeoned in the home
but it could be that the bad stuff began in the home and the family was just caught of guard- by someone they knew and/or somewhat trusted… it wouldnt take much to get me to behave if someone was threatening my babies- if i knew them i might try to reason and buy time unlesss I believed they were more than capable of murder… So perhaps they didnt think this would be murder if they dint make him mad/DER? IDK but maybe the dogs were put outside at BG insistence- by a scared yet helpful mom dad or child
the toys in the back of the car are another odd point when were they bought? where was the car before it was left behind.. were the family alive at that point all or 1 or just the children or none… the toys they were covered with a sheet-
were the bodies also covered with sheets or were they in trash bags- all of these factors would have an effect on decomp- as well as the weather and the manner of death- and any wounds etc- could determine time of year and other factors…
i hope a bug expert was there as well the expert who could examine plant life leaf debris etc.
So many questions I look forward to part 2 hoping this case is solved and highly prosecutable sooner and you can add that to the piece.
Thanks for reading sorry for length
AJMO
Peace
Great observations and thanks for your non-patience, lol.
You know the drill- write and this thing goes like a wildfire. Been working on limited sleep and the backnoise issues. It is an odd state- static and fluid, as it were.
B
I pray to God this moves swiftly for the McStay family.
Just read your post Rose so 3rd adult wasnt in a grave– due to animals or never?
Big difference
well there goes the early theories in last post except to say having a family member dig graves still wrks
That doesnt make sense why then were all bodies intact? If animal got one then why not all?
and if never buried then why not? why bury the other 3 Im confused-
Not Rose but I believe it was just poor reporting. I will be very interested in how the reporter info turns out. I don’t think there will be a Kronk to contend with Mom3.0
B
AJMO
I agree with you folks- this fella seems to be having an inappropriate reaction. Wonder what is up with him? He better relax or he is going to have an inappropriate law enforcement reaction. KWIM?
Eloise- I actually think that is what is bothering him. Nobody is giving him any attention except for the response for abusing this family publicly before and after death.
How is that advocacy in any way? People can sell themselves air, as my Gram used to say.
B
im a little concerned about Summer’s name changes. To me, it raises somewhat of a red flag. i wonder if there could have been someone/something from her past that her husband wasn’t even aware of that could be the impetus for these murders (not trying to blame her at all just hope its something LE is looking into)
legit question, but we found nothing to suggest that.
B
I don’t think there will be a Kronk to contend with Mom3
***
I had wondered about this today…Two statements from your article says:
An off road motorcycle enthusiast called the San Bernardino County Sheriff when he came across what he suspected was human remains.
McFadden has participated in several bike events in various locations all along the Route 15 Mojave corridor.
****
Couple that with the fact that the heir to Joseph’s estate was now over 18 and perhaps the body needed to be found,. JMHO but something to think about.
Ode- you got it all right except Jonah is still a minor. I do think the remains finding is worthy of scrutiny so far.
B
OT humor- Re Kronk
Cripes Blink I hope not for his sake and the investigations sake still they havent released the name of the finder yet gulp
LOL
B
In 1975 I drove route 15 to get from Seal Beach to what is now I-40. We ran out of freeway at Riverside. At that time 15 was a two lane highway the same as the route to Needles. Both highways have been upgraded. This is a low traffic highway at Victorville. We drove it in the morning hours. The soil covers mostly rock. This was nearly forty years ago. There was nothing out there then and not a lot has changed.
Someone may have been hired to dig the graves with equipment after determining that it was too difficult with a shovel. The third grave may have been a trial dig. My guess is that the soil would be six to eight inches deep with mixed rock deeper. This is much like the soil in the area where I live. One needs a pair of shovels,a rock bar and lots of time to dig anything deeper by hand.
I hope LE is looking at all the people involved in the business and the extended family. As long as they remained missing, the perps may have been able to continue life as usual. Now, things have changed and someone may do something abnormal. I am saying perps because I believe there are two not counting the grave digger who could have been hired to use equipment with the holes left open.
Completely O/T and offered affectionately of course-
I hope you pen your memior someday. Or should I say I hope you are in the process “of.”
I have been through the available aerial imagery. Working on some private resources-
I openly admit that my best skillsets and training are more forensic than spatial.
But for three hours this morning I counted and sized tumbleweeds and indiginous fauna and we got there, lol.
The investigation becomes who dug those holes leading up to the evening of February 4th, 2010? We agree, I dont think that is the same guy. And if I were him- I would want to admit to digging a hole I was not told about it’s intended use beforehand- if that were true.
B
B
I’d like to know what the kids clothing was.
here is a link to weather in Fallbrook, California on Feb 4 2011. It was around forty- 50 degrees in the evening that day. For a Californian, this is cold! We put on sweaters out here when it “drops” to 65!
here is the original reporting from LA times:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/30/local/la-me-missing-family-20110530
This includes the assumption that the family left voluntarily and crossed the border on foot. It seems the conclusion about an abrupt departure is based on food being left out. (A carton of eggs and a banana and a half eaten bowl beneath the micro wave.) BUt….
Here is the youtube part 2 of the texas Eqqu search that was done of the McStay house.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m77MM1O5To
No sheets on the beds in the one bedroom that ( apparently ) the entire family slept in. It was a house undergoing renovation., with no real evidence of “organized housekeeping”
To me, the food could have been left out in any case, doesn’t mean they just ” dropped everything” and were forced to drive to the location of their death.
IMHO if the kids were not wearing clothing that would protect them from the cold night, it paints a different picture, one of emergency.
Who was Summer talking to one the phone when she said ” Joe can you get the door”.
Blink you say in part 2 you will look at the day leading up to the disapperance.
Truly looking forward to that!
Hi Blink- I left this out of my previous post
here is link to weather in Fallbrook , California on Feb 4, 2011, the day of the disappearance
http://weathercurrents.com/fallbrook/ArchiveDay.do?day=04Feb2011
I updated the link- it is for February 4, 2010
http://weathercurrents.com/fallbrook/ArchiveDay.do?day=04Feb2010
Hi Blink-
Thanks for looking into this case. The whole thing is McSad. LE sure did take the easy way out on this one. I really feel for the McStay family- as well as the Kesse’s and the Bobo family among others who are not getting their families cases properly investigated. There is so much misinformation out there- i.e. no money was taken out of Joesph McStay’s account- well there were people accessing his accounts and DK had a lot of money transferred over to him via Joey’s Paypal account. They had had a falling out a year before and DK threatened him- see IM chat (https://www.facebook.com/notes/search-4-mcstays/ims-joeydk-wletter/461547510551598) where DK goes off on Joey. I’m almost positive that Joey would NOT let DK have access to his Paypal account. DK could easily hack a computer as he was the one running Joey’s business website and probably knew how to track passwords etc.
This is what Patrick McStay said about DK and how he was involved in the business-which he then somehow sold. “He really had no role in the company per say. He was an independent contractor who was the person who worked with Joey in designing the EIP website. Then DK was paid to maintain the website rankings and keep the design up to date and to keep it ranked on top of fountain web searches. He had no ownership as it was a sole proprietorship. There was no stock or shares, again because it was not incorporated, it was the sole property and owned by Joey, period.”
Here are some of DK’s transactions he made to himself-after the family went missing- Thousands of dollars… Did he know somehow (cough) they weren’t coming back? Joey would not have been to happy that DK was taking thousands of dollars of his hard earned money.
https://word.office.live.com/wv/WordView.aspx?FBsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fdownload%2Ffile_preview.php%3Fid%3D520278657986259%26time%3D1385261195%26metadata&access_token=100002935507913%3AAVJHc1aFJBgLoHpSNftbLnNPFIOsZDcgeSnS0CjRZbapBA&title=PayPal+Records-Withdrawal+Summary+2-6-10+thru+6-2-10.doc
https://www.facebook.com/notes/search-4-mcstays/paypal-account-withdrawals/500076060032076
(Blink Edit). And I’m just totally puzzled about the phone call he made to CM at around 8:30ish which was never answered-the last phone call he ever made. It doesn’t seem the family suspects CM but this is really strange.
Also, the sitch with the shady ex-felon step-father also raises a red flag…
If you go to Google maps and put in these coordinates of the gravesites in Victorville (blinkedit- these are wrong and reported in images in the press- but incorrect) you can see the tire tracks of a Bobcat possibly? that was used to dig the graves. Eerie and enraging to think how planned out this was.
Bodies were found adjacent the osborne pipe supply…fishy to me…someone who needs water (fountain) supples would know this area
Got it.
However, I am suspect of the proximity to the Victorville landfill first, and cemex second.
Based on the tracks to the gravesites among other taphonic observations
B
Blink writes I updated the link- it is for February 4, 2010″
Thanks Blink! so sorry for the typo, and so grateful that even wit this case on your hands you took the time to fix my error!
Like Mom 3.O- and all of us I am sure- can’t wait for part 2.
I haven’t noticed it mentioned….my glasses are downstairs.
Read that there were deep track marks/depressions in the soil near graves. It was hinted a bob cat could have made those tracks.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2511190/Mystery-digger-track-marks-McStay-family-grave-site.html
It this is true, there’s one near that shooting range, or it pulled behind on a trailer.
Could be a lead….who rented a bob cat around the time of deaths?
On that note, it goes to show the family ALWAYS knows the victims better than LE gives them credit for. How many times have we seen this played out? They KNEW something happened, from the get go…and by gosh they were right. There’s something to be said for family/friends that state…’This is out of character…something isn’t right….they would never leave their dogs…’. I’m not against LE. My granddaddy was an RCMP and an MP. I have great respect for anyone who serves and puts their lives on the line. I just don’t get how some can easily write out a family’s character reference when it comes to missing loved ones. These are the people who know them the best.
In this case, I doubt it would have made a difference…but…may it would have brought home the answers much sooner. Another heart breaker :’(
Shalom & Khesed, my friends~~~
The little kids were so cute I can’t imagine anyone killing them and not letting them go. How strange. I don’t know, but it must have been someone close to the family to kill the two kids like that.
I haven’t been on the site much because I was diagnosed with stage iv cancer and I was on treatment. I’m going BACK on treatment and I’m trying in between to move to New Hampshire to be close to my family. Anyway, it’s nice to read all your messages again, although some of the cases are not good for my frame of mind, so I only read a bit here and there. I hope Holly Bobo is found. That would be very good for all our frames of mind.
Hey lady- you fight the fight and God Bless.
B
The Victor Valley Materials Recovery Facility (MRF) is just south of the grave sites off of Stoddard Wells Rad. This facility serves as the processing center for recyclables from Apple Valley and Victorville’s curbside and commercial/business recycling programs. The MRF is also a BUY BACK and DROP-OFF RECYCLING CENTER open to the public and businesses. Scenario: Could be possible that someone who regularly takes scrap metal to this facility to get extra sideline income would be familiar with the emptiness of the area just north of this facility. For example, guys that work in demolition tend to get a lot of scrap materials that they then take to scrap buyers for good money. Usually the owners of demolition companies have deals already in place with these types of centers to buy all scrap that the demo company comes across when wrecking buildings, oil processing facilities, etc. but an employee on the shady side could easily take scrap scored at jobs out to a recycling recovery center that is out of their employer’s radar. Just might be worth checking to see who routinely takes demo scrap to this facility and who also has access to skid loaders, bobcats, mountain bikes, and a prison record.
Directions to this facility from Victorville: “Take I-15 North towards Barstow. After crossing the Mojave River, take the first Stoddard Wells Road exit. Turn right at the end of the exit ramp, then turn right again to double back over the Freeway. After crossing over the freeway, veer right again. You are now on Stoddard Wells Road, heading North. Go past motels/gas stations/etc. Make your first left onto Abbey Lane. The MRF is at the end of Abbey Lane.”
there went that fancy word again, so I looked it up & didn’t find it by close by was taphonomy:
http://archaeology.about.com/od/tathroughte/g/taphonomy.htm
Says these investigations (plant & animal material, & fossilization) are used in forensic sciences & legal cases.
TY for the info.
Yes, this was wuite planned. Imo by someone who knew Joseph’s schedule & meetings that day, and hers.
There is a family friend, not a suspect, who on a cursory search finds a self-description on one of his web
entries of “amateur hacker.” Also self-styles as website builder and social media pioneer. also a 2011 bankruptcy. Not
linking so as not to suggest suspicion. But DK was not the only hacker in the family’s circle.
Digging holes in the desert where the ground is of the geology ATG describes, & involving another party to do so,
seems very unimaginative wrt disposal, if not downright dumb.
It is quite close to a landfill, so there’s that-
Again one of the reasons I think it possible the digger had no idea of the real intent here- if those tracks are here today, they were visible then. Not much you can do about that in the dark, and without the tools necessary. So digger asset would not be concerned.
Then what?
Park the car 100 miles South in a lot and hope for the best.
B
Cemex is in Victorville, Blink?
Seems so: http://start.cortera.com/company/research/k3m1rxp2q/cemex-california-cement-llc/
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemex A Mexican Co. What did victim say about Mexico was too dangerous for him to travel to recreationally?
It is international, yes. In the victorville plant they do aggregates only
B
While I don’t have the photos to count tumbleweeds, I can use Google to look at the area. LOL
This is typical foothill area. The general slope of the land is NW towards a lower elevation to the SE. At an eye elevation of 18,000 ft., one can see the actual water flow on the land when it rains.
West of I-15 (old U.S.66) is a major power line with very high voltage. The line is carried on steel towers with double conductors for each phase. There are three lines in place. These lines are carrying 300,000 volts or more. To me this may have been the reason to not go off the highway in that direction.
If one goes farther West, there is a road named Boulder road. This area contains granite. If that much granite is exposed above ground it indicates that granite is below the surface to the East.
Not knowing the actual work done by the fountain company, Osborne pipe and supply has a yard full of plastic pipe of various sizes along with plastic water storage tanks. They have a 2,000 bbl. (110,000 gal.) water tank in the SW corner of the property. Osborne probably provides most of the irrigation and well equipment in the area.
Limestone is often found in areas with granite. Cemex is operating a large limestone quarry. Powdered limestone is the material used to make cement and cement products. Cement is an engineered product that is combined with other chemicals along with sand and rock or gravel to produce a unique product.
What is the likely route to get to the burial area? There is no exit off I-15 where Quarry road crosses over. However, Quarry road crosses over I-15 and on the West side turns South to intersect Stoddard Wells Rd. at the West side of I-15. This is the likely route taken.
Satellite photos do not reveal the subtle underground structures near the surface as do photos taken from 1,000 ft. The google photos in current use for the area were taken in mid-March of 2013.
Pipeline and electrical companies with cross-country lines often have contracts with companies to fly the lines monthly to report their condition. This is often done with helicopters. Sometimes they take video of the route flown to backup written or voice recordings of the observations. This information could be stored on DVD by the power company. If the camera covered a wide enough area, the burial site may have been photoed on one of those inspection flights.
I cant tell positively yet, but it is possible there was direct access from 15 before the Stoddard Exit (157). I say this because if you look at the dirt road where they were located to it’s end, you can see what I would call a turn around for heavy equipment. The road (dirt) has been there since at least 2006 and something definitely dug it.
B
the scrap metal sideline is an interesting idea.
were there insurance policies?
if so, who were beneficiaries?
to me, what DK allegedly took, or what Jonah might “inherit”,
is chump change for this crime & insufficient motivation,
unless one had to pay off a drug dealer yesterday or die.
$100,000 is negligable when one could wait for “the business to take off,”
which I doubt it would anytime soon in that economy. Imo the business
was overrated. Strikes me as a revenge or “honor” killing if no drug
involvement. So my question, not to speak ill of the dead, was whether
Joseph’s meetings ever might have included the wrong man’s wife out there
Rancho C way?
No evidence of that whatsoever. Absent a crime scene indicative of a struggle, or violence of any kind, when I consider how and where they were buried alone, this is someone known to them, very personal. This person (s) dug 2 separate graves going into this.
B
Imo a bobcat could easily tamp tracks (tho dark would be harder)
by putting the scooper flat to the earth with pressure while backing
out the way one came in. Any landscaper consultants?
No ma’am. If I can get to 2 by tomorrow I will ‘splain. Weight load distribution does not work that way.
B
Some many intriguing thoughts and info being shared by all- you guys are amazing-
Blink thanx for recognizing my effort to have patience nd for the kudos on the Observations Ditto as always.-
Please dont overwork yourself too much im sure yr family needs you too.
I really am trying to wait for your part 2 its extremely difficult though – as many things just pop out as wrong out of place “off”- it reminds me of a theory from several profilors in the Ramsey case “staging within staging”
Take for instance the popcorn bowls left out seemingly filled almost to the brim with a few kernels “spilled” on the cushions of the couch-
Are we to believe a 3 and 4 year old were sitting there but spilled so few and ate so little? — ar we to believe they were wisked off the couch at 7:30 at night but didnt try to take their promised snack and in the process accidentally knocked it down spilling it or leaving a trail to the door? …
are we to believe a Mom who although hasnt set up the house the bed rooms etc yet still seems to sweep and vacuum and who did find it important to take the time to set up the kitchen/ dining area with a huge tv clearly in sight of the table would disregard this clever set up to have some order would choose to send her two young sons to eat the popcorn off the couch?
are we to believe she would set the bowls on the couch for her children a couch they would try to jump up and begin eating blissfully unmindful of the perils of spillage?
.. is it possible yes – but most moms wouldnt- as we know just how bouncy/clumsy a child can be in their eagerness to get comfortable and snack away…we mothers always know that if we do not hand the bowls out or designate who gets what bowl then there is a higher risk of a shouting match ensuing of Mom he took my seat, my bowl, he spilled my popcorn on purpose etc…
was the popcorn for the children or for mom and dad or some visitor/s was it a set up to make it seem like part of the story…like perhaps the other food..were the dogs left out to make sure that these”clues” would be there when someone came around to look?
Popcorn brings to mind watching a movie or tv- was the television left on if so what channel- if not what was the station it was set to once turned on? were the lights left on in the house? was there other food in the fridge? eggs typically are breakfast food or ingredients to add… to a smoothy or energy shake banana flavored… there was one also left to rot- Kids who eat popcorn are thirsty…so are parents…did the kids have sippy cups were they missing left out? was there a blender on the counter was it missing its cord? an empty ice tray in the sink or on the counter? or was the food set up to be left inorder to tell another story IDK
whodunnit- thanx for the links that Tim Miller clip Wow is that standard to put something like that up on Utube?- I wonder if LE took the sheets to test- if not then for me it brings to mind the sheet used to cover the toys…
Lots of unanswered questions. Blink I am sure your part 2 is gonna be packed with so much
sorry patience is a virtue i am still working on…
AJMO
Peace .
@Blink. Well if you are into nitty gritty, wrt that dirt road 2006ff,
I recommend looking at land marketed (not necessarily successfully
sold) bordering it. A local commercial Realtor consult?
is there any evidence for the Middle East
fountain contract other than Chase’ word?
Yes.
B
FWIW heres what Mike Mcstay said regarding the area- he ofcourse could be wrong in his theory- but his observation on the “low area” seems noteworthy to the discussion
http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/20/us/california-family-killed/index.html?eref=rss_mostpopular
Approaching their makeshift grave for the first time, Mike McStay said what he sees indicates to him that the guilty party knew what they were doing.
“You see how this is kind of sunken down?” he said. “It gives you a little cover from the road. Somebody had to know the area, had to know you needed a four-wheel drive.”
end snip
TGF thanx for the info
Tea thanks for the recycling info- if it was someone who works there then they must not have access to the crusher or the shredder because IME a perfect way to get rid of a body would be to utilize them think pulp Fiction and Mr Wolf…
IME scrap yards have ample security- even at night as scavengers would just remove items to resell- copper aluminum etc-
Could it be that someone wanted to utilize the scrapyard for disposal drove out there under that purpose but thought better of it? IDK
AJMO
Peace
Thank you for the CNN link Mom 3.0-I saw that SDCSD still feels it is a strong possibility that the McStay’s crossed into Mexico the night of the 8th. Do y’all see what I mean about how difficult it can be to alter an investigative theory of LE at times?
The proper thing at that point would have been to defer the question to SBCSO who is now heading the investigation.
B
BIG OOPS the first IME should have been IMO have UTTERLY NO EXPERIENCE in getting rid of a body yikes!
TY for answering my Qs,
nonjudgemently also.
B
The turnaround process for tracked equipment is to lock one track and use the other for locomotion around a pivot of the locked track. This produces a pattern of skid on the locked track with the moving track creating a circular pattern.
One thing not mentioned regarding equipment is the possibility of renting a small tracked or wheeled bobcat type tractor equipped with a front mounted loader and a rear mounted hydraulic punch. It is not difficult to learn to use one.
One of these could have been rented by the fountain company from time to time. They may have a std. unit that was rented from one of the heavy equipment rental places. The small units can be carried on a 4-wheel trailer pulled by a 1/4 or 1/2 ton pick-up truck. They could be pulled on a two-wheeled trailer with a 6,000 lb. axle.
This is another reason to do an audit of the money and who was authorized to purchase, rent and pay for the material and equipment.
I-15 is on a slightly elevated roadbed about two feet higher than the land. The land slope is uphill on the West side. A good driver in a truck or even an SUV would not have difficulty exiting the roadbed and driving off-road. The shoulders are sloped so if someone went to sleep and steered off the pavement a roll-over would not occur.
This murder was not done by unknown subjects. It was an inside job.
Holy crap, I laid another stupid down (bob cat).
Sorry y’all. I swear, I thought it was useful info….bob cat, digger, whatever. It was mentioned at some point that the earth where the graves were dug was not ‘dig friendy’, human wise.
It looks like a warn down path, conveniently, leading to the graves. If those tracks were there before the burials, it was known to killer. Follow the yellow brick road, ya know…but what do I know.
Tough crowd.
Ragdoll- not true ( nothing stupid- dont make me quote Gump). The tracks are very important and to my knowledge so far, were created when those graves were excavated. You were correct and your post was spot on.
B
Blink yr welcome- yes I see what you mean re LE and set theories- the sister never believed the border video showed them but grandma thought the kids were them but not Joseph her son- I dont know what to think but with the quality of that vid- I would not be comfortable;e saying yep thats “likely” them….
another overlook by police seems to be the tracks M. Mcstay pointed the “tracks” out to LE according to this article…and LE sp.woman
had this to say:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2511190/Mystery-digger-track-marks-McStay-family-grave-site.html
‘Our investigators would not have used heavy lifting machinery during the excavation for fear of damaging evidence. I am glad to hear Mr McStay contacted us with with this information.’
end snip
but LE are trying to do right as the article also reads
A San Bernardino police spokeswoman yesterday confirmed all the original witnesses will be spoken to again. She said: ‘We will be re-interviewing anyone who was interviewed before, as we are starting again from the beginning.
end snip
I just watched the video with this article- are there two sets of tracks? it seems there are two sets of grooves leading to the LE covered excavation sights… or am I looking at the wrong area can someone please point them out to me on the video as the grooves dont seem to be as defined as the ones in the pic w/article…so I think I must be looking at it wrong…?
Also in video it shows the boys eating popcorn on the couch from a big tin with gusto- so yes they did eat popcorn kinda messily IMO on the couch but still IMO the popcorn bowls left behind are weird.
This is where Ragdolls observation of listening to the family would come in going thru pics etc to figure out what was normal and what wasnt….
another interesting thing in this video is it shows the highway and how close/far away it was and it shows the volunteers digging in the ground with shovels inorder to place the memorial crosses- gives you a feel of what the soil was indeed like.
I also noted that according to the article there is a shooting range not far so gunshots wouldnt be heard…can we assume a gun was involved somehow or was this just a possibility that the reporter raised on their own?
Like Blink said itll be interesting to watch the reports and how they morph and play out as time goes by and info becomes known for certain..
Ragdoll and all I just wanted to let you and everyone know I have appreciated each posters contributions rose Eloise Ode DP and scout and all- truly each person brings a different and important thought to ponder IMO
To Joan Theresa- good to see you, take care and hurry back
AJMO
Peace
Will address in #2 Mom3.0, but yes, there are definitely at least 2 sets of tracks with different approach clearances and a radius. Guess who has spent 2 straight days with a heavy equipment consultant? Oye.
B
Tea-
Not posting that, I am aware of where you are going with that and I turned that info over to SBCSO before publishing this piece. At this juncture it is pretty inflammatory v probative so I am going 403 it for now.
Respectfully submitted-
B
Hi Rose, Thank you for providing this venue. Really appreciate it.
Hi Mom 3.0 I wasn’t considering someone who works there but more likely a customer who brings in scrap for sale.
Oh, I have nothing to do with it. I began reading Blink, the site owner & investigative crime analyst due to
another case involving a child and found her and her sitework reliable, insightful, fair, and ethical. And generally there’s no drama, just fact analysis.
The two mystery cases I’ve been obsessed with: the McStay family and Holly Bobo…
I’m so sad to learn of the McStay family’s ending. It is truly heartbreaking and I hope those who caused this are punished. They have their place in hell.
Any update on Holly Bobo? I check all the time for updates and nothing…If it were my family, they’d have every Tom Dick and Harry looking into stuff. There would be no holdbacks. Look at Lauren Spierer’s family. Plea after plea after plea.
Holly’s family = mum. Maybe that’s not their intention but I blame anyone who is hindering that investigation.
Praying for an update. Praying for Holly’s return.
Hi all – this probably means nothing – but Summer was said to have been buying some of their household furniture/items from Craigslist.
Whatever happened that night, we know from the scene at the home that the McStay family likely left the home very quickly sans any planning on their part. Then, an hour later, Mr. McStay (or someone using his phone) makes one final call to his business partner.
Does anyone know if that is when the phone stops pinging off towers?
Is not, and Grace I dont necessarily believe a connection to the craigslist activity has been excluded. Working on 2 to address your questions as well.
I hate this case. You just know when it is already worse than you think.
B
A Texas Grandfather says:
November 24, 2013 at 10:02 pm
@ATG, I agree. I am sure the FBI and the SBCSO is taking a pretty close look at a few alibis right about now. And revisiting phone records.
A couple of things….
I was thinking, if I got a call that there was a family emergency (I guess it would depend upon the nature of the information I was given), but more than likely I would not bring my little ones along. I would go- if the situation was better served for me to go or my husband- all depending upon those involved and the nature of the situation. Anybody have thoughts on that?
as far as the food bit? They left the home per surveillance video- ( if they were indeed in the vehicle at the time) @ 7:47pm. The popcorn may have been a dessert for a movie- as you suggest mom3.
“The car was backed into the driveway, and it was making a left out (of the driveway), you cannot see who is in it, they pulled out at 7:47 p.m., and his last phone call was 8:48 p.m.; they could have been running out for food, they could have been running somewhere to pick up something from Craigslist,” said Michael. http://investigation.discovery.com/missing-persons/mcstay-missing-update.htm
But one thing I do find odd is the lack of bedding. At that hour- close to the kids bedtime- I would think the beds should have been ready- I wonder if the sheets may have been used for something? I realize they (LE) doesn’t consider the home a crime scene- but I don’t know how they can know that- they thought they were in Mexico on some sort of sabbatical.
And speaking of-
Mom3.0 says:
November 24, 2013 at 8:39 pm
http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/20/us/california-family-killed/index.html?eref=rss_mostpopular
~snip~ I saw that SDCSD still feels it is a strong possibility that the McStay’s crossed into Mexico the night of the 8th. Do y’all see what I mean about how difficult it can be to alter an investigative theory of LE at times? Why?? stubbornness or something more??
Oh- I was doing so good- but didnt sign it “B”- LOL
Thanks for the link to the photos Ragdoll.
All of the skid steer Bobcat tractors have a specified track width of 64.7 inches. The wheelbase is a little over 42 inches. These are wheeled vehicles that have either smooth tires or ribbed tires. There is a large selection of accessories for these tractors. Standard bucket type loaders are 68 inches wide. A trip to the Bobcat web site is interesting.
The British reporter was on the ball by going to a dealer and asking the track width of a Bobcat. The track shown in the photo is created with a wheel. These tracks are several years old and are weathered. The rocky condition of the soil is visible. This whole area is traversed with dirt roads and trails from various types of vehicles. The perps picked an area that would not leave the tracks standing out from the terrain.
I hope the people who excavated the graves were careful to make note of the length and width of the graves. They could match a bucket width of the Bobcat. There would also be evidence of a generally smooth wall rather than the slices and irregular wall from a hand dig.
Rose
Your concern about being able to cover tracks by placing the front end bucket on the ground and pulling the soil back over the track is exactly how landscapers smooth and area with the bucket. This little tractor can do it too. The total bucket width is 3 inches wider than the track. However, in this area with the many tracks, why bother. No one would think anything of the exposed tracks.
You directly point out the contradiction I am referring to, but part of which is included in my draft on #2. Those tires are heavy duty tires used for a construction site, not traditional landscaping as they use turf tires for “land and sand”. To your point, if those graves sat open for a day or even a couple hours and were exposed to rain- it will firm the walls and a trained anthropologist and excavation specialist will observe that.
B
I am thinking aloud here but two things are whirling around inside my head.
1 If the perpetrator used machinery to dig the graves why not dig them to a reasonable depth? I have seen one to two foot deep quoted but I don’t know what is true. But one foot seems extremely shallow.
2 I know this is stating the obvious but these unfortunate people must have made a deadly enemy to have the whole family wiped off the face of the earth. How did it come to this?
Good luck with part 2 Blink. It has to be tough going. I for one have never seen a crime like this.
I don’t know how loved ones, family and friends cope with a tragedy such as this.
My heart aches for those dear little boys.
It was 2′ and my opinion is it was limited by the equipment, concern of detection and time.
I think this individual made their hatred of one big enough to include the others.
B
RE
Mom3.0 says:
November 25, 2013 at 2:33 am your link-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2511190/Mystery-digger-track-marks-McStay-family-grave-site.html
I meant to say this before: It seems Michael is indirectly indicating the victims were shot?
~ snip from article> Michael also said there is a quarry nearby, meaning the use of a digger would not seem out of the ordinary to any witnesses. And there is a shooting range nearby – so gunshots would not have sounded out of place, he said.
Despite the fact I don’t think this is any cartel deal- it really does sound like a “hit” in it’s truest form, or an assassination. So sad and terribly unnecessary.
Hi Blink, I’m so glad you’re looking at this case. I can’t believe the coincidence on the McStays and Jamisons being found in the same week. Any insight on the Jamison’s case? I’m looking forward to #2. I am so used to the family murder-suicide type case by now – we had one last week in the town next to mine in Massachusetts, a husband killed his wife and twin baby boys before killing himself – that I just can’t conceive someone including the two little boys in this and is still out there walking around. It’s so odd too that SDPD can’t clearly see that the truck in the parking lot was staged as a red herring to get them to focus there. Are they seriously still on the Mexico angle? LE can be so stubborn about admitting when they’re wrong (not all – but it wouldn’t be the first time they refused to budge or admit error).
B, thank you for the guidance. I appreciate your wisdom.
Okay, I will try to explain this simply- but it is a theory regarding the ” third grave”
This theory is based on the concept that at least one of the killers involved was very familiar with the area that became the gravesite. It is also based on the idea that the holes were dug by someone completely unrelated to the murder, and that they were dug for another purpose entirely- that purpose being the use of the material dug up.
What if:
The killer, frequenting the area, sees that someone has dug out two fair sized holes- (perhaps to lightly quarry the material for cement, landscaping whatever)
The killer has been harboring hatred for one of the McStay parents for a long time, but has not acted on it. However,upon seeing these holes already dug , the killer realizes these holes could be the perfect hiding place for the bodies, and seizes the opportunity to put a plan in motion to do away with the McStays.
To COVER the bodies, he has to dig a third hole, and use that material from the third hole to cover up the bodies.
Now of course, this theory is totally off base if the area would not provide appropriate materials for landscaping cement etc-
my question is, are there any holes similar to the grave site in the surrounding area? Would people ” “pirate” materials from a quarry in this way?
Please, feel free to scroll past this- I am spinning wheels waiting for Blink to reveal her part 2!!
I first observed one of these little Bobcat tractors at work in 1968. It was being used to knock down the old Houston Lighting & Power company office in downtown Houston. It was a 9 story reinforced concrete building. That was the smallest little workhorse I had ever seen. Equipped with a front mounted hydraulic punch with a track width that would allow it to go through rough openings for a 36″ door, it punched down a floor a week.
These small front loader buckets will pick up about a foot of soil per pass. Rocky soil and some large rocks make the dig more difficult. A yard (27 cu. ft) of that mix will weigh about 3,000 lbs. If the graves were dug 2 ft. deep, then the operator would make two passes down the length of the dig. One end would have been left with a slope up to grade to allow it to get out of the hole. These little tractors can be equipped with work lighting.
I would also look for some large rocks near the site that were too large to put back in the holes. They would have been placed a short distance away.
Some govt entity unloaded one of these bobcats on the street infrint of my house today.
Sewer rebuilding contractors or their County monitors? County? Town? School?
Whatever, it came on a flatbed. And sedmed to need it, not a pickup piece.
@Blink. Can you verify Joseph was at home & the family left together?
No. Nobody can.
B
How could the brother be so precisely lucky on his fear and assertion that he is looking “for TWO shallow graves and his nephews crosses” back in 2010??
http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20759686,00.html