McStay Family Murdered: Will Desert Graves Yield Their Killers?
Deserted in the Desert
Gianni Family Photo
Gianni Martelli McStay had rock star hair at only 4years old. His little brother Joseph, affectionately nicknamed Chubba- did as well. They both rocked a beanie like no other little dudes.
Chubba Family Photo
Gianni and Chubba were as inseparable in life as they were in death when they were recovered in a shallow grave in the Mojave Desert on November 11.
Their parents, Joseph, 40 and Summer McStay, 43, were located in a separate grave nearby.
A 3rd gravesite was found-but empty. A protected source not authorized to speak to the media has confirmed that at least one of the parent’s remains was bound by an electrical cord.
While formal DNA comparisons and autopsy protocols are pending, the manner of death in all four victims have been declared homicides.
Just about 50 yards off the intersection of Route 15 and Quarry Rd the family that San Diego County Sheriff’s Department (SDCSD) believed was “likely” voluntarily missing on their own and living in Mexico, was recovered in a 30 hour excavation process. An off road motorcycle enthusiast called the San Bernardino County Sheriff when he came across what he suspected was human remains.
Last April SDCSD forwarded the McStay case to the FBI based on their conclusions that the McStay’s had McGone to Mexico, following a lengthy complaint of their handling of the case by Patrick McStay, Joseph’s Father. Troy Dugal, previous lead investigator of the McStay case, appeared on several news and cable television programs over the last three years explaining there was “overwhelming” circumstantial evidence the family of four that was pictured crossing the border into Tijuana, Mexico the evening of February 8th, 2010 was in fact, the McStays.
Following the recovery, San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Office will maintain jurisdiction of the investigation.
Frenemies.. Frenethieves.. Friends.. Family or Cartel?
Who brutally murders innocent children and dumps them in a hole they dug in the desert?
Logically- someone who is very familiar with the area. Of course it is just as shocking and horrific to murder anyone, but it takes a specific brand of evil to murder a baby. Make that two.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that either Joseph or Summer McStay had any ties to drugs, associates with ties to drugs or cartel, at any time. None.
Contrary to a top selling book on the case, “No Goodbyes” by Rick Baker, there has never been any evidence whatsoever that Summer McStay was some sort of closeted psychotic and homicidal type. The book goes on to malign members of both Joseph and Summer’s families and in some cases outright accuses same of extortion or stealing. Baker’s subsequent public theory is that Summer murdered Joseph and everyone should be looking for her and the boys in Mexico.
Not surprisingly , Baker has requested Amazon pull his book from available stock and has offered refunds to prior purchases. Popular online sleuth sites previously promoting “No Goodbye’s” have since either deleted it’s hundreds of posts endorsing Baker, or moved them to a member’s only private viewing area.
Albeit obtusely, Baker does touch on a troubling and serious abuse allegation concerning Joseph McStay’s oldest son from his first marriage, Jonah, and his step-father, Michael McFadden. He writes summer filed a complaint with Child Protective Services after she and Joseph recorded a conversation with Jonah and placed a copy of same with a private party for safekeeping. Blinkoncrime.com has been able to independently verify that is accurate, but that the investigation was not known to be completed until shortly after the McStay’s disappearance. Under California probate law, Jonah would be an heir to the McStay estate or as otherwise provisioned in the instance of an existing will.
Interviewed by Laura Ling for E! Investigation, Joseph McStay’s web administrator Dan Kavanaugh claims he was the first to become concerned. In Baker’s book, he refers to him as a suspect and details how he alleges he was funneling cash from McStay’s business account before he or anyone else knew the family was missing. Kavanaugh has an unrelated open criminal matter in San Diego County according to court records.
Chase Merritt- Joseph McStay’s business partner in his water fountain design and installation business was the last number ever dialed from his phone at 8:28PM on February 4th. Merritt joined McStay in a lunch meeting earlier that afternoon where they discussed a proposal for a very large car wash chain to feature custom fountains in each facility. According to family friend MacCargar McGyver, McStay was very excited about the opportunity. Merritt claims he passed a voluntary lie detector test, and that he was adamant that Joseph McStay would never have taken his family to Mexico and has always believed they met with foul play.
McGYver spent several days leading up to February 4th at the McStay home due to a painter Summer hired not returning to complete the job. McGyver introduced Summer and Joseph and by all accounts was a close confidant of the couple.
Patrick McStay, Joseph’s Father living in Texas has had some harsh words for the investigation into the disappearance of his son, daughter in law and grandsons.
“…most botched, inept investigation I’ve ever seen in my entire life.”
He also believes very strongly that the list of suspects with motive to kill his family members is very short. Three, to be exact.
He said the department didn’t even bother to contact him to tell him his son’s remains had been found.
“I got a message from someone [on Thursday] on Facebook telling me to go and read an article,” McStay said. “The minute I read the article, I knew it was him.”
“I have exhausted and have so much information on three possible persons of interest. All have a motive.”
The three individuals are not connected to each other, but all of them seem like likely candidates. Patrick says one of them seems to be a particularly likely suspect: he’s a wealthy man with a long rap sheet that includes charges of attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon and burglary. McStay says he, too, has a motive for killing his son.
Although Mr. McStay did not reference him by name, he may be referring to Michael James McFadden, who was arrested in July 1998 and charged with attempted murder and a litany of other felonies including great bodily harm to a child:
459/460(a) PC – Burglary 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
422 PC – Assault 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
273.5(a) PC – Domestic Violence 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
12022.7(d) PC – Infliction of great bodily injury on a child under the age of five … 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
422 PC – Assault 07/16/1999 02/25/2000 Dismissed
240 PC – Attempt to inflict violent force on another person. 07/16/1999 02/25/2000 Dismissed
245(a)(1) PC – Assault with a deadly weapon other than a firearm 07/16/1998 01/18/2000 Pled Guilty
12022.7(d) PC – Infliction of great bodily injury on a child under the age of five… 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
422 PC – Criminal Terrorist Threat 07/16/1999 01/18/2000 Pled Guilty
664-187 PC – Attempted Murder 07/16/1998 02/25/2000 Dismissed
You will note some of the charges are from 1998, others 1999 on the anniversary date, McFadden successfully negotiated a plea agreement and only pled to criminal terroristic threats and assault with a deadly weapon other than a firearm. Both felonies.
In the complaint he lodged against the detectives in SDCSD, Patrick McStay specifically references failure to interview key suspects he provided to LE directly.
Given the location of the bodies, it would seem that whoever is responsible would at least want investigators to think McFadden was involved. As a self-proclaimed mountain bike “racer”, McFadden has participated in several bike events in various locations all along the Route 15 Mojave corridor. SBCSO says they will be re-interviewing everyone in the case and have no suspects.
There have been no named suspects to date and the investigation is ongoing. Memorial or Funeral arrangements for the McStay’s have not yet been announced . LATE EDIT: The family and friends of the McStay family will gather at the grave site in Victorville, on Joseph’s McStay’s birthday.
To be continued in Part 2: Analysis of the last day of their lives points to involvement by someone they knew.
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Cisero says:
February 8, 2014 at 6:12 pm
I also wonder about the reported sighting of the family by the waiter at the diner in Mexico. … Would LE have put those prints through the national database anyway to try to determine who those people were?
***********
Cisero, I believe it was subsequently determined that the people who left the map were a family from Canada.
Blink:
I can also say that he has a lot to answer for in probate court, at best. At worst, criminal charges wrt his responsibility regarding Joey’s accounts.
As I see it by charging MM with offenses relating to Joey’s property etc he would have to tell everything he knows under oath and the threat of perjury.
He as gained from all this and needs to explain himself. He is and has hindered a murder investigation.
Technically that is incorrect. If he is charged with offenses related to the $$ or anything else, he has the right against self-incrimination and cannot be made to testify as to anything related to same, just like anyone else protected under the 5th amendment.
In my professional opinion, there are only 2 ways that will ever happen.
1. If during the course of their investigation LE determines that MM has broken the law in some way, and same is not precluded from prosecution based on a statute of limitations. I can tell you in this instance, it would probably have to be something pretty major and feel ultimately doing so would support the instant matter, or progress the case of the quadruple homicide. No LEA I have ever known or worked with wants to charge grieving family members frivolously and the reality is, whether we disagree or not, they really do not care who pilfered accounts of their victims. They are focused almost solely on the murders and will likely only use charges or the potential for charges if it is tied to it, or if such actions propel the case in some manner. ( ie: payments from Joey’s account made to a suspect, etc, and all those hypothetical permutations)
Personally, I think this whole issue is a moving target if these murders are in any way business related.
2. Probate Court. Joey has 2 judgements in excess of $87K, which arguably could have been avoided and also paid for by his accounts that were pilfered. This will be a mess.
B
Blink writes:
The children had to be identified via DNA, but in order to do that, they either had to have samples of their confirmed DNA (collected previously from say a toothbrush or hairbrush belonging to them, although I don’t believe this was the case) which means at the very least they have a DNA profile for Summer from her remains.
——
San Bernadino Sheriff John McMahon stated that the children’s DNA was “going to be tested”
http://ktla.com/2013/11/20/memorial-planned-for-mcstay-family-at-site-where-remains-were-found/#axzz2sqIblfDc
Also according to the link above, the grave site memorial to erect crosses at the gravesides, requested by Mike McStay, was allowed to take place within days of the discovery of the bodies.
If there was uncertainly about the grave site, and how the bodies got there etc,, wouldn’t a larger area than just the graves themselves have been subjected to forensic evaluation? Why would SBPD allow so many people to access the area for the memorial. Wouldn’t LE be concerned that disturbing the surrounding area might compromise evidence?
Does this lead you to believe that they were certain that the graves themselves were the crime scene, and that LE felt the crime scene was sufficiently “cleared” as to allow at the very least foot traffic all around the graves? The infamous “tracks leading to the grave site”, seem to have been ignored or considered irrelevant by LE. Much has been made of the concept that Mike McStay was apparently the one to point out the tracks to LE. If LE had considered anything other than the graves themselves as relevant, to me, there is just no way those tracks would have been ” ignored”.
The announcement of finding the bodies of the parents was made just a couple of days before the confirmation that the two children’s bodies were the McStay children. Can DNA testing be done that quickly?
Blink, I agree with your theory that there was some kind of informant involved in the discovery of the graves. My layman’s reasoning is that the remains were identified so quickly and that a memorial on the site was allowed so quickly.LE must have found something in cause of death that allowed them to in essence, ” release” the crime scene for the memorial.
Do you have an opinion as to why cause of death has never been released, aside from statement that it was homicide?
Statements always refer to skeletized remains, but aside from the mention of an electrical cord on one ( or more ) of the bodies, no mention is made of clothing or any other identifying articles.
Why is the info about the discovery of the bodies and specific cod being treated with more secrecy than the video tapes of the family allegedly crossing the border?
This is an excellent question, but it is a tough one. As you stated that it- it is an easy answer- the video of the family was designed to locate the family if possible. It was not treated with secrecy when it was validated.
The COD withholding could be a myriad of explanations, but all must meet the threshold for same. I feel like it would be irresponsible for me to speculate outside of what I already have. It could also simply be that SBCSD knows that it will jump start the probate issue- which might muddy their investigative efforts.
B
Thank you Blink and Dauphine.
A family from Canada. I had not heard that. Now that we know it was most likely NOT the McStay family that was captured on security footage walking across the border that night, does anyone know if there were/are any attempts by LE to identify who those people were that did cross the border?
With regard to the painter….Blink, you had previously mentioned here that he (painter #1) would have had a valid need to want to know about traveling with children to Mexico. Can you elaborate on that any? I had read that McGyver at one point said that SB had called him after the disappearance and asked him to meet her at the house to help her look for some things, financial records supposedly being one of them. Does anyone know if he has ever commented or been asked about what he observed at that time about the state of the painting? He would have known how much had been accomplished at the time he left vs. however many days later he returned to the house.
Do you have a link to Mrs. Blake’s request, please?
The painter has ties to Mexico.
B
Found on datalounge.com, was posted there on 11/18/2013 @ 04:33PM
Reply 181: “An online poster claims he used to buy drugs in the back of the small store Mr. McStay used to run. Both parents have had a long history of financial impropriety as well. Some of McStay’s clients have accused him of pocketing deposits without delivering the promised goods. It just shows the business was in serious trouble before the disappearance.”
http://www.datalounge.com/cgi-bin/iowa/ajax.html?t=10253756#page:showThread,10253756,10
If anyone chooses to click on this link with the knowledge it is unfounded and un-researched opinion with some un-moderated nasty types.
B
Blink said ” 2. Probate Court. Joey has 2 judgements in excess of $87K, which arguably could have been avoided and also paid for by his accounts that were pilfered. This will be a mess.
B”
Blink just so I am understanding this: Joey had 2 judgements against him in which he owed 87K and which would have been paid had not everyone and (literally) his brother helped themselves. Do you know what entity this money was owed to? I recall reading he had judgements against him in the past but I thought those were finished business.
I am not going to disclose the specifics re the judgements- except to say that both were entered in 2012 and are in Joey’s name, not the business. They total approx $87 K and change.
B
old posting at Scaredmonkeys regarding McStay connection to a store near lot that Isuzu was found it:
“Some have said the McStays bought granite for their new home from a store close to where their car was found. But Michael McStay said he doesn’t think that’s why the car was there.”
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=7223.0;wap2
The informant led to graves theory vs biker discovery debate – look at google satellite map of site. There is a round object (skull size) just above the northern most tracks where they meet the wash. No other object like it all around (such as the same size rocks). The only footage I found of that spot is in a Univision youtube newsclip and there is no object or rock there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRtaiUJE87k
At 1:08. Also search youtube under Stoddard wells and see dirtbikers films in the area. They like to ride in the washes.
mo, you cannot identify a skull from a google aerial. If you could, you have advanced google earth past clearance- based satellite imagery.
B
whodunnit says:
February 9, 2014 at 11:45 am
Also according to the link above, the grave site memorial to erect crosses at the gravesides, requested by Mike McStay, was allowed to take place within days of the discovery of the bodies.
******
whodunnit, I think Blink early on mentioned that it was possible that LE may have directed Michel to erect the crosses for the memorial site. If I am incorrect Blink I apologies and I don’t have a link back to your statement. I always wondered if that could be possible and that LE would be watching for who may have “come back to the scene of the crime” so to speak.
It is my opinion they definitely were. It is LE 101, not to undermine the tactic.
B
Ode writes:
( re: erecting crosses at the gravesides, was the done at LE’s instruction)
I always wondered if that could be possible and that LE would be watching for who may have “come back to the scene of the crime” so to speak.
———-
Has anyone been able to establish WHEN those tracks leading to the graves first appeared?
Could they have been made by the murder(s) returning to the scene of the crime, to make sure the shallow graves had not revealed the victims? Have they established when the ” third grave” was dug? I have always had the nagging thought that, becsue the ” third grave” was between the other two, it was a source of dirt to cover the bodies. Having said that, if the third grave was dug at the same time the others were, here I go, spinning wheels again!
The third grave was not between the two graves, who. I don’t think anyone is going to be able to do anything but get “close” to a timeline on the tracks- outside of an arrest.
B
Blink writes:
The third grave was not between the two graves, who. I don’t think anyone is going to be able to do anything but get “close” to a timeline on the tracks- outside of an arrest.
B
This is the photo that led me to believe the graves with bodies were not side by side, but were on either side of the ” third grave”. In this photo of the graves, it appears that the dug up ones are on either side of a pile that was the third grave. Guess it is just the perspective of the photo.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mcstay-family-disappearance-probe-botched-angry-relative-article-1.1519082
I hope mo understood Blink’s comment that a skull cannot be identified from ‘clearance-based’ satellite photos. The images used by Google Earth are mostly those that they acquire from government agencies.
They use them with a known amount of distortion at certain elevations.
That is why Google developed the “ground cars” to take street level photos. With the street level cameras, one can read the numbers on a mail box. The “ground cars” travel on streets and highways and do not have permission to travel over private lands.
Aerial photography has been around a long time. Camera lenses and systems have made great advancements beginning in the 1950′s. The first near space photos released to the public came about because of the Gary Powers U2 incident over Russia. Those cameras were able to see the stripes on a parking lot taken from over 100,000 feet. By the late 1960′s we had them in satellites that were used by the government. I have no doubt that those shots could see a mouse on the ground, but they are not available to be used by people other than the military.
Thank You ATG, I was remiss in not providing this clarification- I appreciate it.
B
Well, due to a major computer issue this morning, I have lost the link you ask for Blink.
It has been a frustrating day so far.
I have seen it referenced by several people on a couple of different sites, including here by the poster “Truth.” I had found an article though, back in late January, that quoted Mcgyver talking about arriving at the McStay home on 2/17 at the request of SB, who was already there. Below is a copy/pasting of the post by Truth:
January 3, 2014 at 2:29 pm
https://www.facebook.com/groups/search4mcstays/files/
2/6/10 – Request initiated – money from bank account to paypal acct in amount of $2000.00 USD
2/9/10 – $2000 balance landed in paypal acct. bank transfer complete
2/18/10 – e-check payment to XXXXXXXXX@gmail.com $3000USD. Transaction ID SRW06714LNXXXXXXX
2/18/10 = Bank account transfer initiated 2/15/10 is now complete in amt of $2000USD
Additional transactions:
Feb 8,9: Someone ordered a copy of Joseph’s Quickbooks accounting program four days after the disappearance and before they were reported missing.
Feb 12: Someone changed the mailing address on Joseph’s Wells Fargo business account.
Feb 15, Someone transferred $3,000.00 from Joseph’s Paypal account into Dan’s account
Feb 17: Susan asks MyGyver to find bank account statements while at the house (the house was a crime scene)
Feb18: Someone transferred $2,000 from Joseph’s bank account into his PayPal account
Feb 18: Someone transferred another $2,000.00 from Joseph’s Paypal account into Dan’s account
Patrick and several people who helped him have produced a very detailed account of the illegal financial transfers that took place with Joey’s bank accounts. The transfers, using Joey’s passwords, began within 48 hours of the family’s disappearance and nine days before the family was reported missing. Someone knew, with a degree of confidence, that Joey would not be returning because a new copy of Quickbooks was ordered on February 8th for EIP. This was also the day the Trooper was found in San Ysidro. For several years, some of these initial transactions have been attributed to Dan Kavanaugh. If Dan was in Hawaii during this period of time, it would have been difficult for him to have made these transactions and receive the new Quickbooks purchase that was mailed to the 328 Avenida Cabrillo address. Was someone attemtping to implicate Dan in these early transactions or did he make these electronic transfers from Hawaii? Dan does admit involvement with Joey’s financial accounts and EIP ownership after his return from Hawaii, but what about these initial transactions? How many people knew between February 4th and February 6th that Joey wouldn’t be returning?
Cisero- what would have been difficult about Kavannaugh completing those transactions based on the fact that he may or may not have been in HI- he had a smart phone. He had computer access. He had no problem calling Joey or texting him in the time he alleges he was there.
B
The link was to the article, but sadly now that it is gone I have been unable so far to relocate that article.
Article from NOv 2013.
Forensic Pathologist opines that forensic pathology will not help solve the crime:
http://www.cbs8.com/story/23989800/forensic-pathologist-gives-insight-into-mcstay-case
That is not what Dr. Wecht says who. He is discussing the potential that certain findings do not lend themselves to a definitive cause of death, which can be true. It should be noted that Dr. Wecht is not a forensic anthropologist.
B
OK, I have not posted on any of the blogs so far, but here goes.
I think I understand this murder perfectly down to who did it and why.
I’m going to tell all of my thoughts, but I will not give the person(s) name or names.
I do not believe they left the home in haste.
I think that when they left they had no idea they were going to their deaths.
They were planning on coming back home shortly.
I think the Isuzu was backed up to the garage doors by Summer so Joey could unload those very large and heavy toys more easily into the garage.
I think it was very definitely someone that all four of them knew and trusted.
Since there was no strange forensic evidence found in the Isuzu it is apparent that it was driven down there by one of the McStays with someone following in another vehicle.
I think it was probably Summer who drove the Isuzu down knowing she had to because the boys and Joey, hands bound together, were in the followup vehicle with a gun aimed at them.
I think it very likely that it really is Summer and the two boys crossing the border with some man other than Joey that night. They crossed over with a gun being held on Joey in the other vehicle. They were forced to cross over and then turned around and came right back over the border and they got in the other vehicle and were driven to their waiting graves and killed execution style and buried.
You see, with the bodies buried in Victorville and the car left at the border and with a family of four crossing the border that looked so much like the McStays that LE bought it.
It would have been the perfect crime and was for nearly 4 years.
The murderers never dreamed the bodies would be found.
God intervenes.
I think they left the home at 7:47 pm because they had an 8 pm appointment to meet someone they trusted at the old Bonsall? Bridge. That is where things went south quickly. I think they sat there until. 8:28 pm and one of the murderers dialed Chase Merritt and hung up before he could answer.
I think then their two cell phones were thrown from the bridge and there they pinged until they went dead.
Unfortunately LE did not gather a large search party to find the phones in that location.
They would have spoken volumes, including finger prints.
Shame on you LE!
That is as far as I am going to go.
I think there were two motives for the killing – motives as old as time – nothing new about the motives.
That is my opinion of what happened.
Can anyone tell me how to find the burial site using google earth.
Can’t wait to see if I am correct.
“Jimbob”
welcome to BOC. Gonna have to ask you how you are forming such a detailed opinion and yet the “this is as far as I am willing to go” statement.
Respectfully submitted,
B
The third grave – could just be people assuming there was one based on seeing three sites being worked on. I believe that third site was worked on because it looked like the earth was disturbed (see it in the satellite map)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdIp5BZTkqE
add- at 1:35
Does anyone know if the car seats for the two children were in the Trooper found near the Mexican border?
Yes, they were, and secured as per usual. I should note that both the McStay vehicles had double car seats for the boys. Both sets were found in the respective vehicles undisturbed.
B
Thanks Blink for stating that fact about the double car seats! It’s been difficult to establish until now. I, like you, am even more intrigued by Painter #1, ties to Mexico, etc. Patrick Mcstay posted on his page about this guy’s truck breaking down in Vegas and that was the reason he “vanished”, being unable to complete the painting. It just seems too weird and too coincidental all in the week before this family disappeared. Just wondering if this guy was on his way back to Vegas after dumping the bodies.
What we know for sure based on McGyver’s account is that someone was painting in the home on Feb 4th after he cleaned up the supplies he used on the 3rd.
B
Hello the boarder crossing bothers me, I don’t think it’s Summer, the boys and “the killer” one would assume that a boarder crossing would have videos and multiple cameras why would the killer risk been seen with them ?it would be like going to an airport with your victim. I realise as it is the film we have is rubbish and unidentifiable but would the killer have known this ? Thanks.
Well, I can’t imagine Summer painting alone with 2 little ones. Maybe? It makes sense if the painter was the one in their home and suddenly and surprisingly turned on her……using the boys for pawns. I so wish WE could get this guy’s name, but I understand this may be a critical piece to the investigation. If this has legs….There has to be someone else in on it. Whatever the case…I feel there have to be at least 2 perps. Do you feel there has to be at least two suspects? Thx B!
LE has the individual’s name (painter). I can’t confirm the painter returned to the home. I can only say someone was painting in the home that day.
Yes, I believe there are multiple suspects in this crime.
B
I am still unable to locate the link that I found to the article where Mcgyver is interviewed and comments on being at the house with SB. My apologies…..you may remove that from my previous post as needed.
There has been mention of someone knocking on the door of the McStay home. I have read accounts of this having occurred in the week of the disappearance, the evening before the disappearance, or on the day of the disappearance. I also read that SM was on the phone with McGyver when the knock occurred, and that SM was overheard (presumably by Mcgyver) hollering to JM to attend to the door. This would seem to indicate that it was the evening prior to the disappearance. I have also read, and I believe here, that with regard to the results of the CPS investigation, that is not something that would have been put in the mail to them. I am wondering if this was someone from CPS delivering those results / communication personally? And if so, I am assuming that without divulging the contents of that communication, CPS would be able to confirm with LE that someone did hand deliver to the McStay residence, as well as day and TOD. Does anyone know if LE contacted CPS to this regard? Another theory…..if it was not CPS, wondering if it could have been the original painter, back to let them know that he was back and would be back the next day to continue the job?
There has also been some confusing information out there about the security footage from the camera(s) at the neighbors across the street, and MM stating that there was a malfunction, which resulted in no footage after midnight on the night of the 4th, or something to that effect. Wondering though about footage from earlier that day, that would potentially show the white truck arriving and parking? From the angle that we have previously seen of the Trooper leaving the driveway, it doesn’t seem like the camera(s) would be able to pick up the McStay front door (and why would they?), but they would potentially see whatever vehicle may have been parked in the driveway if activated by that motion.
I guess I’m confused about border crossings. Are passports or ID’s not checked and possible scanned in to a computer or something? People can just randomly walk back and forth?
They are, and no, they cannot. They know that neither passport was used.
I continue to be baffled as to SDCSD conclusions.
B
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdIp5BZTkqE
The third grave – could just be people assuming there was one based on seeing three sites being worked on. I believe that third site was worked on because it looked like the earth was disturbed (see it in the satellite map)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdIp5BZTkqE
wrt:
14. mo says:
February 10, 2014 at 11:56 pm
add- at 1:35
My Comment: I was surprised that the third gravesite was so far from the first two as it seemed that the distance had been assumed to be closer to the sites where the bodies were found. From the video, it appeared that the third site was located on a slight rise and over a small draw from the first two sites. Also noticed that Google Earth currently shows vehicle tire marks showing a vehicle’s path to the third gravesite.
Lola writes:
?it would be like going to an airport with your victim. I realise as it is the film we have is rubbish and unidentifiable but would the killer have known this ? Thanks
——
also, in 2010, a passport was not a requirement for children under 16, but at minimum, a birth certificate was required by law.
I still don’t understand why there is no accessible data of the people who crossed the border to coordinate with the video. It is hard to imagine that with such focus on the drug trade in that particular crossing ( San Ysidro border crossing, an area with numerous drug/human traffic tunnels discovered by SDPD) that there was no system in place that would record the id of everyone going across.
That’s just the thing who- there absolutely is.
Not sure if you have seen this- http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/Feb/01/mcstay-family-fallbrook-sheriff-investigation/2/?#article-copy
Rick Baker can’t be bothered to comment for the piece but he can spend hours spewing unverifiable and in some cases erroneous information a few days later.
B
Regarding the third grave….It was determined the disturbed ground was unrelated.
Deputies and coroner’s investigators were digging through two shallow graves in the Mojave Desert for three days after the bodies were discovered. It all began when an off-road motorcyclist reported near Interstate 15 found bones that turned out to be human, San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department said in a statement.
Sheriff’s homicide detectives and coroner’s officials on Wednesday wrapped up the excavation in barren scrubland on the outskirts of Victorville.
Victorville is in the high desert about 60 miles northeast of Los Angeles. No homes or businesses are near the gravesite.
“There were two graves where remains were located as well as additional skeletal remains … near the graves,” the statement said.
A third site that appeared to show some disturbed ground was also dug up but investigators determined it was unrelated to the gravesites.
Read more: http://www.myfoxla.com/story/23979273/bones-found-near-victorville-may-belong-to-missing-so-cal-family#ixzz2t33sO6Tf
Alli- that is not a quote from LE, as they will not go on record to say it is not related, in fact, the site was sampled for forensic testing so there is no way on the date of that article that they could determine unequivocally it was not related. It’s in till it is out, investigatively speaking.
B
This from the sandiego.org website:
http://www.sandiego.org/articles/international/documentation-you-need-to-cross-the-usmexico-border.aspx
New regulations as to what documentation is required / accepted when crossing back into the US from Mexico. The new regulations were made effective in June of 2009.
If I recall correctly, one of the detectives who was working the case discussed what was needed to return to the states in a televised interview (Disappeared episode). Both the interview and the link above are specific as to documents needed to return to the states, but do not discuss the requirements for entering Mexico. I recall Detective Dugal stating that there were no cameras (at the time) on the Mexican side of the border, so there is only footage from the US side focused towards Mexico. There has been no mention that I can find of LE going through footage of people returning to the US from Mexico, starting from the point of the footage of what they thought was the McStay family crossing into Mexico.
Cisero, BOTH the McStays would need valid passports ( absent other documents that would be necessary) to cross INTO Mexico, and the children would need copies of birth certificates with raised seals.
This is my point. If the assertion is that is the McStay’s- then how did they cross INTO Mexico?
B
I read this article on the Missing Persons of America website:
http://www.missingpersonsofamerica.com/2013/12/mcstay-family-67-inch-apart-tire-tracks.html
Also viewed this video of Michael McStay in the McStay family home:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbvPKlj_a5M
Michael MStay mentions that CM has a Chevy 2500 truck. Blink, do you see a connection here?
Thank you Blink. That is indeed interesting. I was familiar with crossing the border into Mexico from San Ysidro via foot and in a vehicle throughout the 70′s, 80′s and early 90′s. At the time, one only needed to show a valid DL to return to the states. I don’t recall having to show anything to get into Mexico in those days.
So…..is it US officials that check ID’s / documentation both going and coming? If this is the case, it certainly is odd that SDCSD would claim they thought it could have been the family on that video footage if they would have been required to show ID before crossing the border. Lacking that evidence, how could they even claim it was a possibility that it was the McStays?
Blink-
I don’t know if you have already addressed this or not, but in your professional opinion what is your thinking on the 2 sets of tire tracks to the graves? Could it be the original plan only included one family member but then something happened and they had to return to prepare a second grave? I think the 2 sets of tire tracks would indicate more of a planned crime than someone hastily stopping at that location. I know it’s all speculation but if you don’t mind me asking what’s your opinion as to why there are 2 sets of tracks? TY
I have.
In summary, it is my opinion that the tracks may have been made during the excavation of the graves, and that may have occurred after a failed attempt by someone to dig one by hand. I continue to believe the 3rd gravesite is relevant to the case until such time I cannot.
B
I have walked across the border at San Ysidro twice in the last couple years. I did not have to show any documentation either time crossing into Mexico but had to show my passport coming back into the California.
Your saying that you personally went through the San Ysidro “on foot” crossing and not asking you to identify yourself of course, but how do you think you got around the current system which requires scanning upfront to get in the “green light lane”?
Can you take us through the process of which doc lanes you went into for customs?
B
Blink said,
Alli- that is not a quote from LE, as they will not go on record to say it is not related, in fact, the site was sampled for forensic testing so there is no way on the date of that article that they could determine unequivocally it was not related. It’s in till it is out, investigatively speaking.
B
____________
Blink, from an investigative standpoint, there aren’t many facts that have been released by the authorities. In fact, much of the discussion here is based on media reporting, opinion, and theory. I’m just posting what I find in the news if it is related to a topic of discussion here.
The site was sampled and forensics was completed on the remains. The results on the children’s DNA, which normally takes some time according to LE, was returned within a very short time. Are we certain the information we receive from LE is always accurate?
Personally, I don’t believe there was a third grave. Like Mike McStay had previously mentioned, “My fear is that I’m looking for two adult shallow graves and … my two nephews’ crosses.” What, if anything, might he have known?
I would not agree that forensics were completed on either the graves nor the remains- I would agree that it’s field testing and sampling was. The DNA tests on the children can be completed in 24 hours based on the test controls, maybe less.
The only information to date we have received from SBCSD * Directly* I believe we can regard as accurate.
I am not going to disagree that if accurately quoted, and I do think Mike Mcstay might have something to say about that- it is worthy of exploration on every level. It is my opinion it is also one of the reasons he has hired counsel.
B
I took public transportation from the airport to the border. At the border stop, I got off and asked a border patrol agent where to go to cross. He directed me to go between a couple buildings. Along part of it are US border patrol agents, some with dogs, and Mexican agents. You go through a building on the Mexican side where you push a button and continue walking. There are no “lanes” there, just the pathway.
I am referring to how you crossed from the US into Mexico at San Ysidro.
B
I just don’t want to go as far as naming the two people that I strongly suspect committed the murders or their motives. I’m just speculating like everyone else, although I do get very strong, shall I say ” gut” feelings about some cases. This is not the only one. My brother calls it a 6th sense and that I should develop it. I don’t think so.
We know that Summer was a Craig’s List junkie (something that can get you in real big trouble I have learned.)
I think some of her finds were south of the border and that she did the search that she did so she would know what she and Joey would need if they decided to drive down some Saturday taking the boys to pick up some bargain she had found on CL.
blink writes:
That is not what Dr. Wecht says who. He is discussing the potential that certain findings do not lend themselves to a definitive cause of death, which can be true. It should be noted that Dr. Wecht is not a forensic anthropologist.
B
——-
Blink, MOST respectfully submitted, here are snips from previously posted article:
“I must say from a forensic scientific standpoint this is highly unlikely to be a case in which forensic science proves to be of any value,” said Wecht.
———and——-
“Even if they were to find evidence of a skull fracture from a beating, if they were to find perforations through one or more bones from bullets so what does that tell you? Where does that take you? You are still back at ground zero,” said Wecht.
———-
This was from a reliable source- CBS on line, and though Wecht is NOT a forensic anthropologist,, he seems to be saying ” move along people, nothing to see here”
I don’t get it.
Who- you said, and I responded to this:
Article from NOv 2013.
Forensic Pathologist opines that forensic pathology will not help solve the crime:
I was simply saying after review, that is not a quote, and he did not say that per se.
To your point, this is where mine comes in- why call a forensic pathologist about 4 skeletonized remains when there was a forensic anthropologist at the scene, and Dr. Wecht knows if this was his case, he would need an anthro study to complete his autopsy if this was his opinion in the first place? I think this is where your and my opinion meet on this. He had no business weighing in on a case he has no information on.
B
http://www.tijuana.com/info.html
Border Crossing Stations
Visitors to the northern part of Baja California do not need passports or tourist cards if staying in the country for 72 hours or less. If you plan to stay longer or travel beyond Ensenada, you’ll need to obtain a tourist card. This document is free of charge; proof of U.S. citizenship is required.
San Ysidro Station: (619) 639-7100 (open 24 hours)
Otay Mesa Station: (619) 661-3249 (6AM-10PM)
Tecate Station: (619) 478-5545 (6AM-Midnight)
So you can walk across the border at San Ysidro into Mexico and NOT need to show any ID. Unless US agents are stopping people randomly for some reason who are going in, you only need to show a passport when returning from Mexico to the US. That is how I remember it.
Can someone please tell me how to find the burial site on google earth. I get stronger feelings if I can see something, and since I live way over here in Arkansas I can’t just drive over one day to see them.
I am also concentrating on the disappearances of Maura Murray, the Jamison family, Steven Koetcher, and John Glasgow right here in my home state.
Thank you for any help you can give me.
Jimbob
Jimbob- I am going to be honest. I am NOT a proponent of psychics and in many cases I spend hours moderating posts from them. I would also appreciate staying on topic. The google coordinates are listed in the thread several times as are some youtube maps.
Respectfully-
B
Jimbob says:
February 11, 2014 at 7:37 pm
… I think some of her finds were south of the border and that she did the search that she did so she would know what she and Joey would need if they decided to drive down some Saturday taking the boys to pick up some bargain she had found on CL.
********
Summer was fearful of Mexico. She was very protective of her children, and afraid of what might happen to them there. I believe the last thing in the world she would do would be to plan to take her children over the border, especially at that hour, on a cold, drizzly February night, and drive 70 miles in order to get something she bought off of Craigslist in Mexico. She wouldn’t even entertain the thought.
I should say, if I have not been clear, that I do not believe the folks on video are the McStay’s, and I never have. For me, as a criminal investigative analyst- my job is/was to figure out why SDCSD was so sure it was.
Lots of lingering questions on that, imo.
B
I too am referring to going from US to Mexico. I took buss 992 from San Diego airport to American Plaza and a trolley from there to the border where I asked a US border patrol agent where to cross into Tijuana. Coming back into California is the only time i had to show identification of any sort. Crossing into Mexico I was not questioned in any way by anyone, American or Mexican.
Thank you Vonnie. Do we think there would be a different experience with a family of 4 to include 2 toddlers?
B
Blink,
I lived there at that time and crossed into Mexico MANY times from both entrances in San Diego. You DID NOT NEED ANY DOCUMENTATION to go INTO Mexico. ONLY to return to the US. In fact as little as 2 years ago this was still the case. A turnstyle one way gate that you passed through. I hope that helps.
Thanks, it does, but I have to say that I am hearing different things from different folks who have done the same. I realize that it is 2014, but we recently duplicated the “crossing”, and had different results.
Thanks for weighing in Robin.
B
Oh Blink, perhaps I didn’t post that correctly. The entire part starting with the date January 3, 2014 2:29PM was copied and pasted from Truth’s original post here, in its entirety, including the entire last paragraph.
I agree completely…..whether DK was in Hawaii or not is irrelevant to his ability to transfer funds and communicate electronically. Easy peasy.
Thanks Cisero, and I fixed your “hat”- no worries.
B
fixed
B
Bless you B!
My most sincere appreciation….
Rrrr…so sorry I didn’t clarify clearly above about the suspects. Yes, I know there are multiple suspects. I should’ve said do you think of the numerous suspects in this mind-boggling case…..do you think more than one person pulled off this horrific crime? I feel you’re leaning a certain way and just wondering if you think it’s one person, two or more. I know we don’t have a lot to go on….just actually wondering your gut feeling. Myself, I think there were at least two and possibly three people behind this. Do you think we will hear ANY kind of news anytime soon?
There are multiple suspects and there are multiple persons with knowledge of same.
B
Blink- great link!
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/Feb/01/mcstay-family-fallbrook-sheriff-investigation/2/?#article-copy
” the mCstay family has been asked to remain silent about the case”
dated FEb 1.
You don’t need any papers to cross into Mexico. But you need them coming back unless you sneak across.
Blink, I do not think it would be any different for a family that includes two toddlers. There were some children going and I didn’t notice a difference in what they did. I also went to Mexico in the 80s and didn’t have to show identification until we were at a train station trying to take a train down into the heart of Mexico. Maybe that is how it still is. I just went down there the end of December so I know that less than two months ago it was still possible to go to Tijuana without showing a passport.
I don’t think the McStays crossed because I would think there would be record of them coming back, unless keeping record of border crossings depends on the type of passport one has. My only point was that one can cross the border into Mexico without showing a passport.
B, i live in Az and cross over at the nogales border often. My husband and i walk across and have never been stopped or have been required to show id. Technically, as you walk over you should press a button, the green light button that u referred to. This has never been enforced and nobody actually does this. Border patrol is extremely lax when going into mexico. Coming back into the u.s is a different story. We must wait in line to have our passports scanned. Just last week while we were having our passports scanned i realized i had left my passport in the car. I was terrified of what was going to happen to me as i have several friends that work for b.p and have heard the stories. The officer gave me a brief lecture,scanned my license and asked where i was born. Thats it! Within 2 minutes we were done. I was grateful but shocked. Its not shocking that their is no record of them crossing into mexico. Its a mute point as far as i am concerned because i never felt that video was credible.
I sent this post to a family friend who is a decorated border patrol agent in Texas. I can’t print his response, lol. Agreed on the video.
B
If you search San Ysidro crossing and 2009 or 2010 you will find many clips of people filming their crossing. Some videos even give a good idea of where cameras were located. Definitely nothing required to enter Mexico in 2010.
Thank you I have seen those. While I still maintain I do not believe it was the McStay’s, if one were to believe it was them, one would also have to believe they had no means to return.
B