Blink On Crime -

McStay Family Murders: Charles Chase Merritt Arrested In The Murders of McStay Family

Posted by BOC Staff | Chase Merritt,Chubba McStay,Dan Kavanaugh,Gianni McStay,Heather McFadden,Jonah McStay,Joseph McStay,McStay,Michael McFadden,Michael McStay,Patrick McStay,Summer McStay | Friday 7 November 2014 11:55 am

This is a developing story, please check back for details.

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Comments (580)

580 Comments

GraceintheHills says:

November 23, 2014 at 12:32 pm

1.karl westerberg says:
November 23, 2014 at 3:57 am

Karl says, Graceinthehills: Its true what you say but thats also the reason why you cant have a deathpenalty in a legal system. A case must be able to be reopened if there are new evidence or new scientific methods …and there will come new and better ways of finding the facts or the truth if thats what you want to name it

@Karl, in America, we can and do have the death penalty as an option in 32 of our states. The convicted usually are confined on death row for years (average is over 15 years). Appellate attorneys are very involved in many of these cases in my own state.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl says: A striking example of that humans are humans and a uniform or title doesnt make a person having higher moral is when the DA in SB is trying to give an important job to a friend ..when there are others more qualified. That doesnt say hes a bad prosecutor but it points at a well known fact that even the sun has it spots.)

@Karl, what “important” job are you speaking of? What job did he give to a friend? The DAs can and do assign the trial attorneys in criminal cases.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl says, Then about the guilt of Chase Merritt or not: There are a lot of shades and “shady” people and behaviors in this case. Merritt says in some interview that 80-90% of the population are some sort of criminals…maybe hes right…!

@Karl, are you are willing to take the word of a career criminal at face value? Imo, his statistics are laughable and overtly self-serving.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl says, All together I think its going to be a difficult case for the prosecutor and that he has to concentrate on this leaving other issues behind………….

@Karl, yes, it could be a difficult case, but, because none of us know what evidence LE has, that is only speculation. If you are referring to all the money transfers that others made after the family was murdered it is possible that those actions could be addressed in other lawsuits depending on the statute of limitations. Merritt has been arrested for the murders of this family which I think we all can agree is infinitely more egregious than who took what money after the deaths. That said, at trial we should expect to hear about the flow of money into and out of Merritt’s accounts as it relates to his alleged involvement in these murders. I am sure the defense will throw ALL the spaghetti and more against the wall.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Btw, I think by the time this goes to trial (if it does) Merritt will have a team of attorneys defending him.

Thanks for allowing me to bounce off your post, Karl!

Grace- I agree with you on Merritt’s defense team. I am particularly concerned about one individual I know, lol.
B
Eloise says:

November 23, 2014 at 8:45 pm

Karl-

I think you make a very compelling argument/statement/notation in your
November 22, 2014 at 12:49 pm post. I have always been very troubled by all that you have mentioned, it is hard to to bypass these factors, alone and particularly in totality. Just thinking back, in my opinion only, of the look on Tim Miller’s face when he looked around the house upstairs- it was so apparent things were not right. How could anyone just think they may have just gone to Mexico for a vacation and forgotten to mention it to anyone?
Eloise says:

November 23, 2014 at 9:11 pm

GraceintheHills says:
November 23, 2014 at 1:31 am

Eloise says:
November 22, 2014 at 9:52 pm
Yes- I don’t know if he has a pacemaker. I could see one getting one after open heart surgery, but otherwise it is not frequent in someone in his condition. Yes- he looks well. If he does have one and had it for years.. it would be interesting to interrogate it and see what it was up to on Feb 4th-lol.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eloise, not sure why the pacemaker was brought up, but often pacemakers are implanted in patients who suffer from CHF. I have read nothing to suggest Merritt has a pacemaker.

Karl, you refer to Merritt and say “who for a long time has suffered from severe heart disease.” Not sure where you got this information because no one has said anything about the severity of his alleged CHF or how long he has had it. Also, Joey’s father, Patrick, and his brother, Mike, are victims of this crime.

*****
This is my point>

He looks very well for a pt suffering heart failure that was severe enough to warrant a pacer. Thus why I wondered if it were even true, might it be bc of bypass after an MI or something like that. He could still have mild chf. Either way- advertised as a ‘heart pt’ he would likely not be a laborer of any kind. Maybe he has indicated he only was working on the wheel to make his fountains?? just kidding of course. Either way- this will likely be quite the show. He does look thinner than he did in the pics used in the MAOL articles.
Audie says:

November 23, 2014 at 11:58 pm

How soon would one have to dispose of a body before it started to leave a scent of decomposition in a house or vehicle?

Audie- it depends on many factors, and many that might linger after a body is removed, and with what mechanism one is attempting to read a scent ( like a cadaver dog).
B
Audie says:

November 24, 2014 at 12:45 am

Did Chase have any physical scratches or cuts on his hands during that first week when he would have been checking the house and coming into contact with Mike, Susan, or police?
GraceintheHills says:

November 24, 2014 at 12:08 pm

Eloise, I was impressed by the look on Tim’s face AND that he was uncomfortable going into the house when it might be an unprocessed crime scene. His expression said it all.

Actually, following that exchange, Mr. Miller expressed doubt there was a shred of evidence in that house- he said there are no clues in this house whatsoever.

“… There’s nothing here…”

I do agree with you that Tim is an educated cynic and is fluent in LE protocol. He simply expressed what any reasonable person with his experience would do- he can’t be effective in that environment with LE unwilling to share- and other issues.
B

B
karl westerberg says:

November 24, 2014 at 2:20 pm

Dear Graceinthehills: Thank you for reading and commenting and questioning my posts…and am not ironical..I really mean it.

About death sentence I think it doesnt matter if the average time is 15 years or not. It always wrong to execute someone because of the reasons Ive mentioned before.

You should also think about which countries except the US which has death penalties. If all of these countries are ones you would like to be in the same community of values as.

Grace: Of course I was joking when I said Merritt knew that 80-90 percent are sort of criminals….
I dont agree …he was just trying to show hes intellectual and just not a simple thief.
( Ive worked as a teacher . Im no criminal but I have come in contact with criminals and I know that many of them are very intelligent and nice people. The ones who are unpleasant are the ones who have committed violent crimes.)

Im far away from the epicenter, that means my facts are coming from what I read in american newspapers, tvprograms and blogs and for the moment I dont have any new ideas.

For you and for everyone else who think REAL justice is important I finish with telling three cases, two tragic but with a funny twist and one just tragic.

Case one from Sweden happened 6 years ago: A small community in south
Sweden, an elderly couple married for 50 years and their dog.

The woman went for a walk in the evening with the dog to a small lake along a path in the forest.
When she didnt return her husband went looking for her and found her dead ,killed with what seemed to be blunt force.
He heard a big plash from the lake but couldnt see anything in the darkness.
Of course the husband was suspected for murder and was taken into custody.
He was accused of killing his wife by running over her with a riding movers!
Well thats a cruel way really ,but one must admit that the husband must have had some fantasy.
Fantasy is also what the police had when they bought a pig body to prove that the injures would be the same as on the woman.
Unfortunately the police failed..the riding mover couldnt run over the pig …it got stuck..!
But the police force didnt give up. They sent the womans clothing to the state forensic lab for analyse asking for traces of oil or gasoline.(That was all they asked for and the lab didnt examine the clothing any further.)
The lab always just examine whats asked for …no fantasy there!
After 5 months the husband was still in custody, he went on telling them about the splash but police said he was lying.
Anyway…the lab looked at the womans clothing again and guess what they found??!!
Hair from a moose…..
The moose had chased the dog who went back to the woman and the moose kicked here to death.
After they had found the moose hair they found more evidence from the moose and now the police understood the SPLASH….

Karl- I am a Swede among other things, lol, but fyi.

I have taken the liberty of adding links so anyone can confirm your examples. I would appreciate you posting same in the future, if you have trouble doing so, please let me know.
Regarding the “moose” homicide: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/28/police-murderous-swedish-_n_372809.html

Case two from a central african country 6 years ago.
Its about a good analytic judge…. and how to find out if two persons are gay or not ( which is a crime in this country).
Just ask the bartender what they have ordered……
Well of course the men were gay…they were drinking Irish Cream…
no real man drink that …only female males…e.g. gays..
Sentenced to 6 years…

No idea and no time

These two cases were the ones with a funny twist, heres the sad one…
Effective police work from Cleveland USA today (or yesterday).
A twelve year old boy was pointing with a gun at people in a playing ground…
Quick and effective police work …no need of a trial…just bang and splash…good ,now this dangerous criminal was dead and couldnt harm anyone anymore….
Well…dangerous and dangerous…..it wasnt a real gun….it was a toy gun…..

http://www.toledoblade.com/State/2014/11/24/Cleveland-boy-with-fake-pistol-killed-by-police.html

Here is where I weigh-in Karl. I can appreciate a foreign perspective to American jurisprudence- sincerely.

Here’s the rub- you have to do so factually and hopefully objectively.

First of all, God Bless this child. Clearly unsupervised, this child was using a fake gun with the REQUIRED orange fixture removed, pulling it in and out of his waistband prompting wide concern, and then when asked to raise his hands, pulled for the weapon.

Please see: http://www.toledoblade.com/State/2014/11/24/Cleveland-boy-with-fake-pistol-killed-by-police.html
GeorgiaDad says:

November 24, 2014 at 4:43 pm

I doubt Merritt has a pacemaker, since I would presume his lawyer would have volunteered that information with great dramatic flair.

There does seem to be some confusion about pacemakers in general. There are two basic types of devices generally referred to as “pacemakers”.

The most common device is one implanted to treat a low heart rate or certain other heart rhythm conditions. It has no role in the treatment of congestive heart failure unless there is an associated rhythm issue.

The other device is an implanted defibrillator which is often implanted in patients with SEVERE congestive heart failure. It doesn’t actually help the heart failure, but does reduce the risk of sudden death.

I doubt pacemaker interrogation, if a pacer was present, would be helpful. At this point, most older information would have already been overwritten. Even if old records were available, any unusual rhythm disturbances on the day of the disappearance could be attributed to whatever underlying rhythm problem was present.

Now if he had a WiFi enabled device and interrogated his pacemaker at the McStay home, that would be useful; but quite honestly, it would be a stupid thing to do.

Stupid is as stupid does, Good Sir. I don’t know if Merritt has a pacemaker, but to be honest, it would be like opening the Ted Williams back in the day to just the possibility.
B
PaMom says:

November 24, 2014 at 5:38 pm

I think Merritt may have had help disposing of the bodies especially if there was money in the home. He possibly used drugs to subdue the entire family. It is also possible that may have been killed while in blankets which would explain why LE say they were killed in the home. It would also explain why no evidence would be left behind. Whoever this killer is, he’s one evil dangerous man. Congestive heart failure is common and most people have it as they age.
karl westerberg says:

November 24, 2014 at 5:56 pm

Dear ladies: Thank you for reading my posts.

First Grace: I told here about the “Tomas Quick” scandal in Sweden. The man who confessed 30 murders and was convicted for 8 (With a very weak or nonexisting evidence chain)( Hes not guilty any longer)
Today in the swedish news they tell that a man (after 34 years) has confessed one of the murders that TQ was sentenced for.

This murder is barred many years ago so there wont be any trial but as is was a young boy that was murdered its a relief to the parents if it at last is solved and that their sons body can be found.And it seems sofar that the confession is coming from the true murderer.

I want again to remind you Grace and everyone else who is in favor of death penalty …this murder is probably solved after 34 years!!!!!
And there is no DNA Grace!

To B I would like to say: In order to have a reaction and start a discussion sometimes you have to ..not exaggerate but use irony.
Its not suitable in the courtroom but here I think it is .

The meaning with my last posts is to make people start thinking about the death penalty and also point at the fact that courts, judges, juries,and police make serious and sometimes fatal mistakes and that we have to be aware of, that truth and justice are very difficult and delicate matters and therefor should be treated with respect in that sense that no one is guilty until after a fair trial and after the trial there must be a possibility to question the verdict even if its a question of a terrible case as the one we discuss here.

And Im sure that the ones , states or individuals ,who are in favor of rope, chair or injection are living dinosaurs.
Rose says:

November 24, 2014 at 7:30 pm

@GADad. You are so informative. I so appreciate your comments.
My pacemaker experience was of the 60s–an aunt.
Mother & aunts all had CHF and or H Attks, &/or pacemaker by my age.

You rightly intuited Blink’s comment was location-related, or irregularity-related
on date of, and I gather her response to you was Defense atty could just
be lobbing a cautionary ball into outer space without an anchor back to Earth.
Rose says:

November 24, 2014 at 7:37 pm

wrt (this oage),
“Is there any known evidence regarding the $15K check CM gave Joey to pay back the overpayment for services? Did this check clear the bank…
The check cleared and definitely was deposited into Joey’s account. B”

imo that’s exculpatory.

To whom?
B
Rose says:

November 24, 2014 at 7:44 pm

@GraceitHills, wrt “career criminal” comment.
His version of career criminal is shared in the US by hundreds of thousands.
Cf my recent post on an Anselmo for theft, assault, rape of a minor–crimes against
persons; I dislike cumulatives too. But nothing publically known
in Merrit’s background is congruent with this particular crime.
Rose says:

November 24, 2014 at 7:56 pm

@Karl. Death Penalty–or not–is a political, religious (think beheadings), and retribution vs rehabitation question as old as Time. It is left to societies and their governments, which are influenced by retribution & religion & redemption story lines. in the US, thosd governments with regard to State laws are the States, not the Federal government. But, if Federal laws are involved, there is also a system of Federal public defenders for the indigent. There are also State and Federal Courts of Appeal, and nonprofits litigating last resorts..

Merrit needs to run not walk to a Public Defender service, as he qualifies, which can fund an adequate death penalty defense.
Rose says:

November 24, 2014 at 10:10 pm

OT thanks to streaming TV on a 4S phone, I’ve seen the St Louis Grand Jury result.
kudos to McCullough for presenting all evidence, not sorting thru charges for jurors, allegedly,
& releasing full transcripts promptly.

Things would be much better in some States, like Oregon,
if full transcripts in no bills were
put out there.
A Texas Grandfather says:

November 24, 2014 at 10:57 pm

Good job Georgia Dad regarding the pacemaker.

I have two friends that have equipment to regulate the heartbeat and another to fibrillate when needed. All have had problems with the equipment when they first received them due to mis-regulation. This was soon cleared up and no further problems arose.
Serenity says:

November 24, 2014 at 11:17 pm

Hi Bink. In regards to the $15k check. If JM deposited it into his bank than isnt that one more verifiable location/time of Joeys whereabouts on the 4th. So it would be admissable?
Thanks.

The transaction would be admissable.
B
GraceintheHills says:

November 25, 2014 at 2:30 am

karl westerberg says:
November 24, 2014 at 2:20 pm

Dear Graceinthehills: Thank you for reading and commenting and questioning my posts…and am not ironical..I really mean it.

About death sentence I think it doesnt matter if the average time is 15 years or not. It always wrong to execute someone because of the reasons I’ve mentioned before.

You should also think about which countries except the US which has death penalties. If all of these countries are ones you would like to be in the same community of values as.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Karl, you are entitled to your opinion as are the rest of us. I don’t appreciate your condescending remarks about my values. You don’t know me, and you are making assumptions that have no basis in reality. I will not engage in a battle of words with you over the death penalty on this blog (or any blog, for that matter).

I prefer to focus on the victims of this crime: Joey, Summer, Gianni and little Chubba – and, of course, all of their survivors whose lives will never be the same again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl, you say that DA Ramos improperly appointed one of his friends. I asked you before and received no answer. Would you please share the link to that information?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Blink and all: I hope everyone has a very blessed Thanksgiving and don’t end up completely snowed under!!
karl westerberg says:

November 25, 2014 at 7:17 am

Well Grace.today I have to remind you of Michael Hanline in California.
Wrongfully (Probably) convicted of murder 34 years ago and now hes a free man.(Today?)
Ok …I agree DNA was important this time…but still how many wrongfully convicted and executed are there…?

Have to comment you too B.
Yes its important with facts and objectivity.
But I thought you understood why I commented the killing of this 12 old boy the way I did.( “Effective police work”)
And you probably know the case and chase in Cleveland two years ago better than I do where the police used excess violence and officers killed two people with 127 shots!

Or cant you admit that execution is a more factually and objective description?
And what I understand there are more cases like this in Cleveland.
Police officers killing people is more frequent in the US compared to other comparable countries….thats a fact.

This is dangerous for a society and can lead to riots and social unrest and its a structural misbehavior within the police force that you people over there have to use a lot of effort to change….not for us living in Europe, but for your own sake and own security.
karl westerberg says:

November 26, 2014 at 5:06 am

To Grace: Its this Im referring to about Ramos:
http://sbsentinel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Sentinel-11-14-14.pdf
Where many think hes helping a close friend to an important job ahead of more qualified in the departement.

Karl- I appreciate you sourcing the accusation but I might suggest that you question the source- it may be true, but much of that publication is rumor.
B
GraceintheHills says:

November 26, 2014 at 3:17 pm

karl westerberg says:
November 24, 2014 at 5:56 pm

Karl says:
I want again to remind you Grace and everyone else who is in favor of death penalty…

@Karl, again, please refrain from putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting my views and beliefs.
Serenity says:

November 26, 2014 at 7:35 pm

Hi Blink,
Thanks for answering my question.
Blink, through careful scrutiny of gravesite photos several slueths at WS have arrived at the possibility that Gianni and Joey jr.may have buried in a cardboard box (makeshift casket) within the grave. Do you think heavy cardboard would be enough to deter scavenger activity?
Its my opinion that CM packaged the bodies in lined boxes before he removed them from the house. They were removed from the house and transported to secure storage site until they could be buried.
Just curious what your thoughts are.
Thank you for your time facilitating this discussion. My apologies for typos as I’m using my phone and can’t properly preview my post. Thanks again
Serenity

1. Careful scrutiny and WS is an oxymoron.
2. What evidence is prompting discussion that the children- or any victim for that matter- were contained in a storage container of any kind?

In a general explanation I can tell you unequivocally that a corrugated container is not going to contain (sans detection) the decompositional process of BFT victims- or any other type of intentional homicide decompositional event.
B
Alli says:

November 26, 2014 at 7:37 pm

Blink, do you know if the McStay estate has been settled yet? Do you expect DK and MM will face any ramifications for illegally transferring money out of Joey’s account, especially since JM was already deceased on Feb.4? That money was a part of Joey’s estate. Also, MM had taken a lot of things from the home, and gave away and sold personal possessions that were a part of the estate. What effect, if any, would this have on the estate with respect to Summer’s next of kin?

Neither Joey nor Summer’s estate has been probated to date. I expect that the pending and current investigation is the reason.
B
Serenity says:

November 26, 2014 at 7:42 pm

One more thing….if boxes were used, specifically the children being buried in a cardboard box, what do you think that says about the killer?
Thank you

I don’t believe that is the case, however, as a practical matter that question has triple digit possibilities. It is only profile worthy connected to other information to be succinct. As an example, the answer could be that there just happened to be one nearby that would fit the victim.
B
Serenity says:

November 27, 2014 at 3:02 am

Hi Blink,thanks for the speedy reply.
When the graves were being excavated the media released high resolution aerial photos. One photo shows both grave sites under blue tarps. The excavation of one grave is well underway,enough so that one team member is actually crouching in the hole. The other grave appears to partially excavated with only the surface soil removed exposing what looks like a tan colored rectangular object with straight edges. This is what I and others thought might be a cardboard box. Or maybe it is a cover used to preserve the integrity of the site while workers rest? It does not appear to be a sifter.

I don’t know what images specifically you are referring to but I do not believe it is cardboard but likely forensic/anthropologic tooling for recovery purposes- recovery from a grave regardless of age is going to require what is called “gridding”.
B

Fwiw; what I have found participating at WS is a few good posts sprinkled in amongst a lot of rampant speculation and rumor. Kind of like the Jerry Springer of crime solving haha. And that’s OK with me, as it offers a place for ordinary people to gather, share information and express themselves.
Thanks again.
Rose says:

November 27, 2014 at 4:55 am

@ Karl. wrt “This is dangerous for a society and can lead to riots and social unrest and its a structural misbehavior within the police force that you people over there have to use a lot of effort to change….not for us living in Europe, but for your own sake and own security.”

Blink what’s that book that talks about media leaders (like Nancy G comes to mind)
or social/political gadflies (Rev Al comes to mind) making money or fame off murder?

If you think riots & social unrest stem from a “structural misbehavior within the police force”

relating to the polices’ use of guns, you do not know the US whatsoever. While this site, BOC,
often points out police misconduct and incompetence in particular
cases & particular depts, it is no different from the rates of same likely
in European local Depts. Riots (looting) and
social divisiveness as a result of officer involved shootings are mutifaceted
with mamy etiologies, the least of which is probably the shooting itself.
The Brown case is truly one where this particular shooting is less corrolated
with the “demonstrations” than past histories of poverty, racial defacto segregation,
and perceived discrimination, as well as more lucre-related motivations (on the
micro level as looting a store and the macros level as selling a TV ratings program).
If a 30″ lb man is going to get high, strong arm a store owner & steal, block cars as he
strolls the street with his stolen mdse rather than sensibly hiding, & sticks
his body in a police car to beat upside the head
an officer who cannot physically control him alone, & grab his gun, & so on, what do you expect
when he goes on to charge the officer & is 15′ away & coming? Mother
is on TV programs beautifully groomed and poised, but I don’t see hiw this
grieving family could come to any conclusion but that their son’s demise was expectable
given his drug use, physical acting out, and larceny. Now the Officer could’ve chosen not to
initially confront him & wait for backup, but he did not know the robbery suspect
was high & would behave erratically. He could’ve stayed in his car, windows up & doors locked,
and awaited backup after being assaulted. But, he was in a high crime neighborhood with many apts
& little hope of a cooperative public to id the suspect. His actions arose from his training, & it is
the training whether in Cleveland, NY, or MO that needs to be evaluated and
perhaps reformed. Comparative criminology in the US vs Western Europe is a matter for analysis in masters
& doctoral degree programs, so one cannot just throw opinions out there about US vs Western Europe
in terms of police standards & competence (which varies widely even amongst depts within our own 50 states) and
think those opinions have any grounding in fact or credible analytic research.

Rose- brava on this response. The Murder Business (Furhman 2009)
I do admit US criminal justice bias overall. While imperfect, it is, in my view, the best system in the world. There is work to be done for sure in many areas but once again it has to be stated that the goals of punishment are different in the US.
B
Rose says:

November 27, 2014 at 5:05 am

And back to the McStay case Karl. Are you alleging police misbehavior in this case? I believe there is ample
commentary at BOC the Sad Diego Dept was wholly inept in its investigation (or not) and conclusion. San Bernardino
County has been the opposite (we hope).

Problems arise for the public when Depts refuse to investigate crime or do so so ineptly
criminal prosecutions cannot be brought to a successful
conclusion. Specifically targeted police shooting errors, by contrast,
are always investigated and taken through the criminal justice process by grand jury.

I do not see the McStay case prompting riots & social unrest, although San Diego voters should
take the competence of their County Dept into account at election time.
Alli says:

November 27, 2014 at 8:07 am

Blink, as always, thank you for answering my questions. Wishing you a very Happy Thanksgiving!
A Texas Grandfather says:

November 27, 2014 at 10:57 am

Karl

I have no idea where you live, but you appear to have a European view of law enforcement and in particular the use of the death penalty in the United States as a crime deterrent and solution.

There is no criminal justice system in the world that is perfect. They all have issues. I happen to believe that our founding fathers worked hard to devise a basic system of justice for all. This system has evolved over time as the world has grown. It cannot be perfect because humans are not perfect.

I agree with the information Rose shared with you about how our system works or in some cases doesn’t work.

Dealing with the criminal mind and behavior by the police and courts is a never ending process that changes as society changes.

Every case is a challenge to all working in the system. Like any system devised for a purpose, it must be flexible enough to get the job done. This flexibility is dependent on the type of people, their training and their supervision. Some agencies fall into the trap of political solutions rather than justice solutions and that always results in problems.

Most of us who post on this site are all about truth in regarding finding it in these cases. We try to be accurate in our postings and respectful to one another. There are many sites on the internet that are about crime. Few have the integrity that this site maintains. That is the reason of being cautious about the information sourced.
karl westerberg says:

November 27, 2014 at 2:23 pm

Rose ;Ive never alleged that the police behavior in the McStay case has something to do with riots or social unrest.

What I said was that when the police uses excess violence as they did when they killed a 12 old boy and 2012 executed two men(?) in Cleveland with 127 shots its a dangerous behavior which can lead to riots especially if the killed are afro americans.(I never mentioned the Brown case in Fergeson.It speaks for itself.)

About the Mcstay case: If the SB police have found evidence that the McStays were murdered inside the house, and the reason is not something they have found in the graves, then SD police must have done a very bad investigation.

To B: I have to answer a last time.Its very tempting to be ironical but Im just going to remind you of the facts as you deem that the american justice system is the best in the world.
Well thats your opinion and maybe its very just and effective and if so there must be other reasons to why US has 750 prisoners /100 000 inhabitants compared to Great Britain with 150 and Japan 63.

The US has 5 % of the worlds population but 25 % of all prisoners.

US is very eminent from nobelpricewinners to spacecraft but….please dont export your justice system if it creates so many prisoners as it does.
Its better you read;”Sick Justice in the american Gulag ” by author Ivan G. Goldman.

I started this discussion because there were so many who said that Merritt already was guilty and therefore should be executed.

Even here there was one ( neighbor to the McStays? ) with that opinion.

Now I finish this subject and return to the MccStay case, curious about what new the SB investigation has found out.
GraceintheHills says:

November 27, 2014 at 2:41 pm

O/T, will get back on topic after this post.

Karl, you may have come across this before, but if you haven’t, it is a stunning example of how easy it is for some people, including a governor, to reject science and reason. This case haunts so many.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/09/07/trial-by-fire
Rose says:

November 27, 2014 at 4:11 pm

OT looks like assault & larceny were learned at home.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/11/26/Michael-Brown-s-Mother-Step-Father-Under-Investigation-For-Violent-Confrontation-Over-Justice-For-Mike-Brown-Merchandise

mama (& stepfather) and her mama bring a gang of 20 and beat up & steal
(goods & cash) from paternal grandma, violently. lust for money, imo.
Think she’ll be asked about this on Nancy Grace?
Rose says:

November 28, 2014 at 12:41 am

@Karl. wrt “…..if so there must be other reasons to why US has 750 prisoners /100 000 inhabitants compared to Great Britain with 150 and Japan 63.”

or it could have to do with (until in recent years in GB) vastly different immigration practices from GB & Japan, resulting in substantially less homogenous societies & cultures.
There are numerous research-based variables, Karl, contributing to prison populations. Could also reflect more aggressive policing and enforcement, more statutory criminal laws regulating behavior, and so on….
so many variables wrt comparative state criminology & prison populations. It is cheap grace to be simplistic.
Rose says:

November 28, 2014 at 12:46 am

I didn’t read anyone here who said Merrit was guilty & should be executed.
Imo Blink hasn’t laid all her research public, but she’s indicated the arrest is likely solid.
I myself suggested he was an easily framed associate. I think you must’ve been reading
some McStay family statements elsewhere.
karl westerberg says:

November 29, 2014 at 3:44 am

To Rose: This is from an other site but it was published here.

November 9, 2014 at 9:22 pm
Father says authorities ‘did virtually nothing’ after McStays vanished

snip from comments>

Terri Sinclair · Top Commenter · Works at Channel Islands Aviation

These were my neighbors – in fact I can see their house from mine – and trust me this was botched. Four people bludgeoned in a home, bodies removed from the home and they never found a trace of blood?

Think about it? You’d almost have to take great effort to screw up to screw this one up as badly as they did.

Merritt is a monster. Anyone who could kill two small children and their mother – for no reason – is a true monster. No punishment is bad enough.

The father, by partnering with this criminal put his innocent family in harms way. I just hope they didn’t screw it up so horribly that they can’t get the guy. He deserves the worst of the worst for killing two small children especially if killing an entire family is not bad enough.

I hope in prison they remember that – TWO SMALL INNOCENT CHILDREN DUDES…this guy (arrow) right here! Hopefully a guard will stick that piece of paper on his back.
Audie says:

November 29, 2014 at 3:55 am

Why would it be important to the D.A., detectives, McStay family to point out Chase was just an associate and not a partner?

Because he had no business ownership stake whatsoever and therefore no authority to transact on any accounts as if he did.
B
karl westerberg says:

November 29, 2014 at 4:01 am

To B and others who think US has the best legal system in world:
First I suggest you to read the book I recommended (you too Rose to understand why US has so many prisoners) and second read this report from the 28 of nov.( Im not the only one with ideas..about excess violence and what it can lead to….).

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-un-torture-committee-police-shootings-20141128-story.html

And yes tx Grace for the case you sent ; thats why you cant have a death penalty.
And morally there is no difference between a person or a state killing someone.

And now I promise to return to McStay case whatever answer.
Alli says:

November 29, 2014 at 9:38 am

With regards to Chase, Blink said:

Because he had no business ownership stake whatsoever and therefore no authority to transact on any accounts as if he did.
B

______________

Chase had no business transacting on any accounts, nor did MIKE or DK. They broke the law in doing so. But they will try to use the EXCUSE they were just trying to keep EIP afloat, which they had no legal right to do either. They ran the company into the ground. There were complaints filed by customers who gave down payments for fountains they never received. What happened to their money? Did they ever receive their fountains? Probably not.
Eloise says:

November 29, 2014 at 10:44 am

I would say Karl, that is not the case to make that point. My opinion only.
GraceintheHills says:

November 29, 2014 at 11:39 am

Karl says, “And morally there is no difference between a person or a state killing someone.”

Who declares war? Do you believe defending one’s country/people is immoral? Is defending oneself in one’s home immoral? Is euthanasia for the terminally ill immoral?

Your statement reflects the mindset that no killing is justified.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I could be wrong, but I believe the SDCSD believed early on in the investigation that the McStay family chose to leave and this theory colored the rest of their investigation. It has also been implied by the prosecutor that it took while for all the pieces to fall into place.

Rose, when I used the term “career criminal” I was considering Merritt’s criminal and civil legal history.

Taking what is not his has been a common theme throughout Merritt’s life and, in my career, I have seen that type of mindset evolve into the taking of lives. While it is true, he has no criminal history of assaulting or killing, we have no idea what his behavior has been toward family and friends. I believe that there is so much more to his story with the McStay family. For whatever reason, if he did commit this crime, I think the all of the involved elements coalesced into the perfect storm.
Rose says:

November 29, 2014 at 3:59 pm

@Karl. TY for sharing one credible point of view among others.

It is inaccurate to attibute Blink’s personal value statement to anyone else at BOC who has not adopted it.
And we usually respect each others’ values here.

A return offering:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Rose says:

November 29, 2014 at 4:41 pm

Karl, while Blink allows, even expects, urls to public media pieces (news &TV articles), no way will or can she moderate or scrub those articles’ comments of anotger publication. You don’t see TV articke comments moderated for the comments on a print article. No joyrnalist is reaponsible for other publications.
In my 3 year experience on4-5 thread readings at BOC,
that sort of comment posted directly here would not pass Go.
Or I & others would not be here. That’s called a “Hater.”
Mom3.0 says:

November 29, 2014 at 5:41 pm

I have read the exchange between karl and Graceinthehills with much interest. I realize you both are {“done”) with the discussion -

but I wish to weigh in- please and thank you

–
karl – I appreciate all the emotion and thought that you have put in yr posts- but if I may kindly point out- Grace has not shared with you any of her personal reasonings on the subject which you are so staunchly opposing -that being the death penalty-

She kindly just shared her thoughts on why SOME feel the way they do about the death penalty in this case in particular-while acknowledging that yes the American justice system is not perfect:

graceinthehills says:
November 22, 2014 at 9:49 am

#comment-2237347
—-

Karl- In your effort to educate those who you consider dinosaurs without values ie all of America who you see as staunchly supporting the death penalty- you have included Grace- who is extremely well educated in her own right and who if she so chose could teach you a thing or two- you were mistaken
Unfortunately you did seem to jump to conclusions about grace and America as a whole

Karl-
many of us here would have gladly stepped in to educate you on our thoughts and beliefs- we in America dont all think alike dress alike vote alike etc

Dear Karl- you of course make some very good points about the imperfect American justice system and on the death penalty as a whole-

Guess what karl? it might surprise you but many of us including Blink have made much the same remarks – if you have the time read back on BOC

None of us here are so blind that we do not or can not see the very real shortcomings of our justice system or those of allowing the death penalty-

Karl even with confessions – DNA evidence – eyewitnesses- direct or indirect evidence No case will ever be that magical 100% proof positive of guilt– -
It is beyond a reasonable doubt- based on the totality of the evidence-

Despite your summing up all of America- as valueless dinosaurs- who staunchly support the death penalty no matter what– you forgot something karl- We may be the United States Of America but we have
State Law and voting rights-

We as citizens reside in States- we as citizens each have our own thoughts and beliefs
snip-

Gallup has been asking respondents whether they find the death penalty to be an effective deterrent of murder since at least 1985. Twenty percent more Americans believed it wasn’t an effective deterrent in 2004 than did in 1991.
The last Gallup poll, conducted in October 2013, showed that support for the death penalty had dipped to its lowest levels since 1972

we all understand the shortcomings such as:

snippet-
In 2001, the Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern Law School analyzed the cases of 86 death row exonerees. They found a number of reasons why innocent people are wrongly convicted in capital cases. The reasons included:

eyewitness error – from confusion or faulty memory.
government misconduct – by both the police and the prosecution
junk science – mishandled evidence or use of unqualified “experts”
snitch testimony – often given in exchange for a reduction in sentence
false confessions – resulting from mental illness or retardation, as well as from police torture
other – hearsay, questionable circumstantial evidence, etc.

end snip-

Karl 18 States have abolished the death penalty also Dc and PR
many have done so based on the above info, the propensity to make mistakes- also because for the most part many realize that the DP is not a deterrent- and because of the costs-

Still all of us, nomatter our stance- even in those 32 states that uphold the DP we as Americans We do not take murder or killing even by guilt sentencing lightly- we have amended our laws a number of times and continue to do so-

America is a relatively young nation we are still working to improve ourselves and our justice system-

yes it is true that 32 states still uphold the death penalty and that according to Gallup that accounts for at least 60% of Americas citizens who still favor the death penalty

If we reside in those states We must choose for ourselves if we could sit on a death penalty jury-
many of us could not-
Still For others – given the preponderance of the evidence -weighed in part with the nature of the crime- brutality cruelty etc- weighed against mitigating factors etc- many of us could in good conscience sit on a death penalty jury and render a verdict of guilty-

Karl, That does not mean that those who reside in those states and who sit on those juries willy nilly hand down the death penalty– or even agree that the case should have ever been tried as a death penalty case-

The jurors agonize over the issue- think Jodi Arias trial-

Sometimes making a case a death penalty case in fact helps the perpetrator to walk -

Think the CAnthony trial

Again We do not take murder or killing even by guilt sentencing lightly-

Again, We are young- and we continue to debate and discuss we have amended our laws a number of times and continue to do so-

Nomatter where we stand as a nation as a state or as a person on the death penalty I assure you we have values

I leave you with the below links with actual stats which may help you to be less likely to lump us all together or to see us as a nation of barbarians-

Id hate to think it is you who is a dinosaur and refuses to see there is much more to consider- than just the info that The United States had the fifth most executions, behind China, Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

Our hope to make our justice system more just to make it more fair- to make it better – its a work in progress- Our personal beliefs and our state laws and our votes are far more complex than our listing as # 5 would lead you to wrongfully believe

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/23/death-penalty-west-virginia_n_2939612.html

and

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/states-and-without-death-penalty

and
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/state_by_state

heres the snip links:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/05/14/how-many-states-have-abolished-the-death-penalty-since-2000/

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/causes-wrongful-convictions

Thanks for letting me weigh in- Karl and GITH most appreciated I valued yr discussion immensely

AJMO
Peace
GraceintheHills says:

November 30, 2014 at 12:53 am

GraceintheHills says:
November 29, 2014 at 11:39 am

Karl says, “And morally there is no difference between a person or a state killing someone.”

Who declares war? Do you believe defending one’s country/people is immoral? Is defending oneself in one’s home immoral? Is euthanasia for the terminally ill immoral?
——————
My last question should read: Is passive euthanasia for the terminally ill immoral?

Not Karl, but I will weigh in on your query about euthanasia for terminally ill. I did not have the guts to help my dying Mother end her life, and I did not allow my Father to even consider it. In fairness, he never would have- but when I found out that my Mother had stashed a bottle of morphine at the house (for just such an occasion) and was begging my Father to go home and get it- I sobbed in his arms and told him that only God can take her and that I could not bear to lose him also. He told me that as we were losing my Mother, his role as our Dad and Grandfather was more important than ever and he could never, ever be responsible indirectly or directly for her death and look her daughters in the eye again. I truly do not know if I could properly articulate the strength it took him to refuse her request.
No husband ever loved his wife of 44 years more ( it was sickening at times, LOL).

I mention this very personal story because as God is my witness, had there been a voluntary alternative for her physicians to end her life in the final stages, my sisters, Father and I would have jumped at the chance. If you have never witnessed someone you love second only to your own children screaming in pain before they actually woke from the last dose of pain meds, begging to die, who spent the last seven years battling like a Viking to stay alive I pray you never do- but if the alternative to end her life by someone other than one of us ultimately administering it we would not have hesitated to end her pain. In the event a bill ever hits the floor for such a remedy- I vow to lobby for it personally. She had amazing Oncologists I will forever be grateful to- but for obvious reasons would not even permit the discussion.
B
Rose says:

November 30, 2014 at 12:53 pm

good read, 3.0.
Mom3.0 says:

November 30, 2014 at 9:32 pm

Blink, thank you for sharing that personal story with us- I am so sorry to hear just how much your dear Mom suffered- and just how much pain that suffering brought to your dad and to all who loved her so

Rose thanks- back at ya- you have been on a roll lately across many threads. Yr posts are Always an enlightening read
–

About Merrit-

Blink I was reading Reddits unresolved on The McStay case- can you confirm this info -or did I miss discussion about this info?

snipped:

According to public records, Merritt once lived in Apple Valley, Calif., about 12 miles away from the site where the McStay family was found buried in shallow graves.

Merritt also used a mailing address in Oro Grande, Calif., according to a pair of 2011 traffic citations obtained by CBS News 8. The address listed on the traffic tickets is six miles away from the McStay grave sites.

That looks bad.

—

If the above is true- then thats a pretty big possible tie in with Merrit

It would make that far away dumpsite seemingly in the middle of nowhere alot less remote….

TIA
AJMO Peace

Accessibility is always a factor from a profile perspective for many reasons. For me, it must be viewed in context. Yes, Merritt has SUBSTANTIVE ties to the area in close proximity. Playing devil’s advocate here- it would also be an incredibly stupid move of what appears to be an otherwise highly organized and preplanned execution of this family.

Does anybody remember me bringing up Ted Binion’s case? It still resonates for me.
B
Alli says:

November 30, 2014 at 11:30 pm

Blink, I’m having a hard time believing Chase had the ability to highly organize, preplan, and execute this family, and then be foolish enough to bury them at his doorstep. Is it possible Chase could have been set up by a highly organized person or group who might have been at the McStay home that same day? Could Chase be their fall guy? Do you think LE has the right suspect? If so, do you suspect anymore arrests related to the murders? Do you suspect any arrests related to estate matters?

Alli- until someone can present the particulars of this crime to me in a way that addresses my previous concerns- no, I do not believe Merritt acted alone, and even if he did in part, there is someone or someone’s with knowledge. I absolutely believe Chase Merritt was involved in these murders, however, I can tell you I have also worked on more than one homicide where LE used an informant who had a level of culpability and they never had to testify- in which case, their identity was never public and neither was the immunity deal. I truly do not believe that SBCSD would have arrested Merritt when they did if they did not have substantive evidence against him. It is going to have to be a very comprehensive prelim hearing.
B
Rose says:

December 1, 2014 at 6:03 am

I went and read on Binion, and I don’t understand the
parallel except the couple got close to him and had a money motive.
Did Merritt have a girlfriend?

It was more the reference to burying silver in the dessert.
B
karl westerberg says:

December 1, 2014 at 3:47 pm

These are just rumors ..but there are people on internet now who says theyve got the information there is someone more involved.
But they also say that the “helper” wont be revealed until the January hearing.
Rose says:

December 1, 2014 at 6:13 pm

burying silver in the desert?
something to cogitate on.