The West Memphis Series Part II: Guilty By Plea And Have Been Set Free
Jonesboro, AR- In a shocking development, four days following the first installment of the West Memphis Three on www.blinkoncrime.com, on August 19, 2011 Damien Echols, Charles Jason Baldwin and Jessie Miskelley, through an Alford plea, were convicted of three counts of first degree murder following an agreement made by Prosecutor Scott Ellington and their respective defense attorneys for the murders of eight year old boys James Michael Moore, Christopher Byers ( Murray) and Stevie Branch.
Judge David N. Laser agreed to and imposed suspended sentences for time served to Echols, Miskelley and Baldwin; all were released and immediately declared their innocence during the ensuing press conference.
In Part I of our series, we touched briefly on the development of new evidence and possible murder weapon, the blue handled- mountain ice axe, which inexplicably was never presented at trial. It had been admitted into evidence after being retrieved from its owner, following it’s return by Jason Baldwin’s, younger brother Mathew.
Requests to confirm whether or not the ice axe was maintained in evidence at West Memphis Police Department were non-responsive at the time of this publication. Part II continues first with what the jury never heard. A podcast of my interview on the case following the release of the WM3 can be found here.
Premature Illumination
One of the larger points of contention in the murders was the lack of blood evidence at the scene. The lack of blood or blood spatter at the scene with such gruesome injuries spawned the defense theory the ditch was a dump site or secondary crime scene. This was largely due to the fact that the jury would never hear about the results of luminol tests; it was suppressed by motion of the defense In both trials.
Luminol enhanced chemiluminesence (LCL) technology in 1993 was geared toward examining items of evidence in a lab under black light for optimum photographic results, or its secondary application for use in an enclosed environment which can be manually darkened and a portable black light ( we now call this an alternative light source or ALS) brought to the scene.
LCL when sprayed onto a surface containing remnants of blood, or more specifically the iron in blood, will create a glowing reaction when iron, invisible to the naked eye, is present.
In 1993 under Arkansas law, Luminol testing was considered new, novel, and not accepted as scientific evidence.
While the methods for collection, testing and controls have advanced significantly since 1993 and LCL testing is widely used in criminal case work, analysis of the findings in the instant case flatly dispute the notion that there was no blood associated with the crime scene along the ditch bank of Robin Hood Hills.
Contrary to the misconception that there was no evidence of blood at the scene, the results of two consecutive days of luminol tests at the scene were enlightening.
As Kermit Channell and Donald Smith, from the Arkansas crime lab could not bring the “outside in” they were forced to set up shop in the woods along the banks of the ditch. Also present for testing both days were WMPD Detectives Mike Allen, Tony Anderson and Bryn Ridge.
Donald Smith’s report below in it’s entirety below, The other reports can be found here.
STATE CRIME LABORATORY
P.O. Box 5274
Number 3 Natural Resources Drive
Little Rock, Arkansas 72215
REPORT OF LABORATORY ANALYSIS
Investigating Officer / Agency / Address
Sgt. Mike Allen
West Memphis Police Department
100 Court Street
West Memphis, AR 72301
Laboratory Case Number: 93-05717
Date Received in Lab: 05/07/93
How Evidence Received: M E / Matthew Elliott
Agency Case Number:
Suspect (s):
Victim (s):
Steve Edward Branch
Date of Report; 06/10/93
FIELD INVESTIGATION. WEST MEMPHIS TRIPLE HOMICIDE. MAY 12 and
MAY 13. 1993 LUMINOL:
This analyst and Kermit Channell, Serologist responded to request to perform luminol on
a potential crime scene area on May 12, 1993. We left that afternoon, arriving in West
Memphis at approximately 6:30 P.M., proceeding to the Police Department.
Officers Tony Anderson, Brian Ridge, and Mike Allen accompanied Kermit and myself
to a swampy area in the northern edge of West Memphis where the victims were found.
A general survey of the area in the daylight hours was conducted. Approaching darkness
fresh solutions of luminol reagent were prepared. When the area became dark, using
flashlights for light support, the part returned to the area and proceeded to spray and
locate areas of luminol light emission activity, a presumptive test for the presence of
trace quantities of blood. The following observations were noted:
(1) At a trail along a stream bed an approximately 11 foot high bluff overlooking the
stream positive reactions were noted on either side of a tree with more reaction noted to
the right side of the tree, facing the stream bed.
(2) An Area with used plastic sheeting west of the trail and the bluff gave more positive
reactions were noted.
(3) At the west bank of the stream bed, to the right of some trees, an area gave positive
reaction. It was explained by the Police Department that this was where two of the
victims were placed when they were recovered from the stream bed.
(4) In the stream bed, below the described (at one time) water line, positive luminol tests
indicated where one of the victims was found in the water as related by the West
Memphis Police Department.
(5) On the east bank of the stream bed were a pile of sticks and a depression in the soil
where luminol tests showed a concentrated area of positive reaction.
[PAGE 2]
(6) North of this point luminol tests gave positive reaction to a large area of
concentration (described by West Memphis Police Department where the third victims
was placed upon recovery from the water).
(7) North of the point #6 near some tree roots, another large area of concentration of the
luminol reaction was noted.
(8) Trace amounts of positive luminol reaction was noted on the slope west of the area
where two of the victims were recovered and placed. (reference area #3). The areas north
and south of where the third victims had been placed (5) and (6) were unaccountable
known activity by the Memphis Police Department or rescue / recovery operations.
From these areas of noted luminol reactions for the presumptive presence of trace
amounts of blood the following opinion is rendered:
The traces of presumed blood detected along the trail (2), and at the bluff (1), and one the
slope (8) appear to be transfer of blood by the rescue and recovery teams.
Reaction in the areas where the recovered victims were placed is the apparent result of
trace blood transfer from the victims (3) and (6).
The area below the water level on the west side of the stream was accounted as where
trace amounts of the victimís blood diffused into the mud in the stream bed.
The areas (5) and (7) indicate activity prior to recovery of the victims and relate to
activity to the victims when perhaps they were being attacked.
It should be noted that the luminol testing was performed some days after the discovery
of the victims and at least one rainfall had occurred. There were no visible signs or
indication of blood at any of the locations that we investigated.
[PAGE 3]
Upon the group returning that night to the police headquarters Inspector Gitchell and his
staff were advised of our findings. It is our opinion the crime had taken place where the
bodies of the victims were recovered. Inspector Gitchell was further advised of the
inability to document the luminol reaction of the evening because of the light leaks from
stars and the back scattered light from West Memphis. To document the luminescence
Inspector Gitchell was advised that we would have to place tenting over the areas of
interest and to block out all stray light possible.
The luminescence requires near total darkness to document luminol reactions in the open
field.
It was decided that Kermit and I should stay over the next day perform the tests again
and photograph them.
The morning of May 13, Inspector Gitchell provided us with equipment, supplies and
manpower needed to document the areas of positive luminol reaction. A test with plastic
covering over the canvas was erected and photographs were taken of the positive areas
noted of the previous evening again with fresh luminol application.
Because of the limitations due to some light leakage, physical activity in the area
destroying some of the reaction, the weather conditions of some light rain the night
before and the originally low concentration levels in the areas on the bluff (area #1), along
the trail (area #2), where the victims were placed (area #3), and the area in the stream bed
where the body was recovered (area #4) and the area above the recovery area (area #8)
we were not able to document photography as we observed these areas the evening of
May 12.
The tented area over the areas where the victim’s body was placed (#6) and the
questioned area (#5), subdued the light to a degree that a less than perfect photograph
could be obtained. These photographs still documented the areas of interest, showing
luminol reaction in respective areas. These photographs were without the benefit of flash
painting application to reference the areas photographed. A still photo of the questioned
area from the original camera tripod location does reference the questioned area. The
photographs were processed revealing the luminol reaction at areas where the victim was
place (#6) and the questioned area (#5)
[PAGE 4]
The tent was moved and photographs were taken of the questioned area by the tree root (#7). Photographs of the areas (#4, #5 and #6) with surveyor flags mounted were taken to reference those areas tested and photographed. All photographs were left with Inspector Gitchell.
[signed] Donald E. Smith, Criminalist
Soil samples were submitted on May 14, 1993, but for unknown reasons not tested until 4 months later, and did not react to the luminol.
The result was considered inconclusive as it was not likely to detect blood from a four month old soil sample in the first place.
Although the luminol reaction results were not admissible in the trials, for analysis purposes, it tells an irrefutable story. The obvious counter-argument could only be that investigators were new to the technique, some of the initial testing was unable to be photographed, or to any conspiracies, that detectives simply made up results for some purpose.
However, as none of the investigators present had the autopsy results prior to the testing, and most certainly did not have Jessie Miskelley’s “account” to draw from, outside of the known injuries and other more circumstantial evidence in this case, these findings certainly further support there were multiple perpetrators in this crime- and that it all went down right there.
In 1998, Damien Echols filed a Rule 37 hearing for causes of incompetent counsel and due to his “actual innocence.” Jessie Miskelley lost his appeal to overturn his conviction also in 1998, but It was not until 2008 that Baldwin and Miskelley filed their Rule 37 petitions. For purposes of evaluation, I am including affidavits , exhibits and testimony excerpts from some of the expert witnesses at all three hearings and subsequent related appearance spanning from 1998- 2008.
Brent Turvey, of Knowledge Solutions, LLC trained under renowned blood spatter expert Dr. Henry Lee, did not consider any of the luminal reports when hired by Dan Stidham in 1998 for his expert opinion in his representation of Jessie Miskelley requesting a new trial. Turvey’s report found (here) was largely the impetus for future defense experts for all three defendants to “weigh in”.
While Turvey’s work was largely unsupported once his infamous “bitemark” was debunked and he bought into the “Baldwin knife” which has since been abandoned by all subsequent defense experts, as the first guy up at bat so to speak, his testimony demonstrated the burgeoning direction to the CSI Effect the West Memphis Three would take toward their ultimate freedom.
I explore Turvey’s initial observations taken directly from his report, in the beginning of each unique victim’s autopsy segment, followed by updated relevant expert information and my subsequent analysis.
Autopsy By Coroner- Autopsy By Proxy
In the interest of brevity, I intend to focus on the dissenting views of the experts, and I stipulate that in no report that I have reviewed, was there evidence of sodomy or object penetration of any of the boys.
While I believe Dr. Perretti’s prior experience with cases that involved same did form his opinion on the possibility as it relates to some of the injuries, I do not believe that such testimony should have been permitted at trial, nor would it be permitted today.
Memphis Triple Homicide May 5, 1993
James M. Moore #ME-329-93
Steve E. Branch #ME-330-93
Chris M. Byers #ME-331-93
LOCATION: On May 6th, 1993, all three victims were found, bound wrist to ankle with shoe laces, in the water of a drainage ditch, in a heavily wooded area called the Robin Hood hills, behind the Blue Beacon Truck Wash in West Memphis, Arkansas. An equivocal forensic examination of all available crime scene and autopsy photos, crime scene video, investigator’s reports, witness statements, family statements, autopsy reports and numerous other sources to be listed as referenced in the endnote section of this report. The purpose of this preliminary examination was to competently assess the nature of the interactions between the victims and their environments as it contributed to their deaths as indicated by available forensic evidence, and the documentation regarding that evidence.
James M. Moore
James Michael Moore autopsy found here.
The following forensic information is taken directly from the official autopsy report filed by Dr. Frank J. Peretti of the Arkansas State Crime Lab, Medical Examiner Division, dated 5-7-93, Case No. ME-329-93 and/ or from The official coroner’s report filed by Kent Hale, Crittenden County Coroner, dated 5-6-97.
The purpose of this section is not to present an all inclusive, detailed account and explanation of every piece of information in these reports, but rather to explore these reports, with the corresponding photos, for consistency, possible omissions, and to review injuries or patterns that this examiner deemed to be significant to the case.
Wound Pattern Analysis
This victim received more traumatic head injuries than any of the other victims in this case. Dr. Peretti states that defense wounds were present on the victim’s hands. These wounds were very few, indicating that victim was incapacitated quickly after the attack began. So the nature of these head injuries, and the limited defensive type wounds, combine to indicate sudden, forceful, and repeated blows that resulted in abraded contusions, multiple lacerations, and multiple skull fractures.
There is an unexplained directional pattern abrasion just below the victim’s right anterior shoulder area.
This unexplained injury does not correspond with any of the physical evidence collected at the location that victim was discovered. It is furthermore inconsistent with any of the naturally occurring elements that exist in that environment. The best conclusion that this examiner can reach is that this pattern abrasion was created by forceful, directional contact with something that was not found at that crime scene, whether it be a weapon, a surface or something else capable of creating that pattern.
The shoelace ligatures used to restrain this victim did not leave deep furrows, and also did not leave abrasions. This indicates that the victim was not struggling while the ligatures were in place. This indicates further that the victim was very much unconscious when the ligatures were affixed to his wrists and ankles.
We know that the victim drowned, that is to say that hemorrhagic edema fluid was present in the victim’s lungs, indicating that the victim was breathing when he was placed into the 2ft of water in the drainage ditch at Robin Hood Hills.
Together, these facts suggest that the purpose of the ligatures in this victim’s case was to keep the victim from moving around or being able to swim should he regain consciousness once he had been thrown into the water. It is this examiners opinion that the assailant in this case demonstrated all manner of awareness and cognizance at this location. The assailant knew that this victim was not dead when they threw this victim into the water, and that the ligatures would assist to complete the act of deliberate homicide should the victim become conscious.
Lack Of Injuries
When compared to the other two victims in this case, who were found at the same location, bound nude with shoelace ligatures in the same fashion, the most striking discrepancy is the lack of injuries suffered by this victim. In the crime scene and autopsy photos made available to this examiner, there were no readily discernible bite marks visible, the genitals have not been visibly disturbed or molested, and there are no discernible stab wounds. This lack of attention is very telling, and will be discussed in the Offender Characteristics section of this report. There is also, again, a lack of mosquito bites to this victim, which, as mentioned earlier, suggests that he received his injuries elsewhere first. This because the injuries took time to inflict, time during which many mosquito bites would have been received, even after death.
Analysis: I find the statement that he had the least amount of injuries, yet the most severe head injuries in dire conflict, as he died from multiple injuries, and drowning. The fractures to his head and lacerations to his left and front right skull were enough to cause his death within minutes on their own, and there can be no doubt that he received them while he was already unconscious because of the lack of injury at the ligature sites. There is very little hemorrhage involvement with the open lacerations, and all lacerations were abraded; one with a dovetail and upside down L producing an ovid fracture. In Jesse Miskelley’s confessions, he says one of them was moving as he was put in the water while he was leaving. I believe the reason he never mentioned that Michael Moore was beat about the head with an instrument of some kind is because he never saw that. Michael was located in the ditch just below the oak with the exposed root that had the luminol result “shaped like a V”, which would be consistent with him struggling to get out of that water, on that bank, with a cast off or blood spatter pattern consistent with someone beating him toward the bank and in front of that tree.
Mosquito bites: Only females take a blood meal, so that potentially reduces the population by 50%, and at no time will they bite a deceased person. They are attracted mostly by carbon dioxide, released from a breathing person. Both Dr. Haskell and Dr. Goff agreed to this ultimately.
What is further curious to me, is that while Turvey was hired by Miskelley, who confessed at least three times by the date of the generation of this report, does he not note the obvious discrepancy for the placement of Mike Moore upstream, or that he was found on his right side with the left side surfacing when in effect dislodged by Det. Mike Allen. Moore was also hogtied differently, with different knots than the other 2 victims, with ONE black shoelace. There is a reason that Turvey was not given Miskelley’s updated confession following his conviction, and instructed to disprove it; he would not have been able to.
Steven Edward Branch
Stevie Branch autopsy found here.
Wound Pattern Analysis
There are numerous violent, traumatic injuries to this victim’s face and head, as well as numerous superficial scratches, abrasions, and contusions noted throughout the rest of his body. Dr. Peretti, however, does not note the presence of extensive defensive wounds.
This indicates a violent, overpowering attack on this victim that he was unable to put up resistance against. The constellation of wounds are very similar to those inflicted on James Moore, however they are much more intense and include the victim’s face.
This level of attention paid to the victim’s face, in terms of depersonalization and rage, is indicative of familiarity and that will be explored later on in this report.
Furthermore, there is the existence of patterned injuries all over this victim’s face that could be bite marks. Since the ME may have missed this crucial evidence, other areas of his body may show bite mark evidence as well. The autopsy photos of this victim supplied to this examiner were not of sufficient quality to make an absolute determination of any kind, and would require a thorough examination by a qualified forensic odontologist for an informed, conclusive analysis. [note: Dr. Thomas David, board certified forensic odontologist, has confirmed the wound as a human adult bitemark and excluded Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin and Jessie Misskelley as the offender using bite impressions obtained from the men in prison] Bite mark evidence is very important in any criminal case because it demonstrates behavior and lends itself to individuation. It can reveal to an examiner who committed the act, because bite marks can be as unique as fingerprints. And, once established, it also reveals the act itself; biting.
Another unidentified pattern compression abrasion can be found on the back of Steve Branch’s head. The source of this injury caused a 3? inch fracture at the base of the skull with multiple extension fractures that terminate in the foramen magnum (that’s the hole at the base of the skull where the spinal cord connects to the brain). Upon close examination, this pattern injury is consistent with compression made from footwear. Again, without better photos supplied to the examiner showing a variety of angles, it’s very difficult to make a positive identification of any kind. But the pattern is consistent with a footwear impression, and would require a footwear impression expert to analyze and make an informed, competent determination.
The shoelace ligatures used to restrain this victim did leave deep furrows, and also did leave patterned abrasions on both the wrists and ankles. This indicates that the victim was struggling while the ligatures were in place. This indicates further that the victim was very much conscious before or after the ligatures were affixed to his wrists and ankles. We know that the victim drowned, that is to say that hemorrhagic edema fluid was present in the victim’s lungs, as well as in the victim’s mouth, indicating that the victim was breathing when he was placed into the 2ft of water in the drainage ditch at Robin Hood Hills.
Together, these facts, again, suggest that the purpose of the ligatures in this victim’s case was to keep the victim from moving around or being able to swim should he regain consciousness once he had been thrown into the water. It is this examiner’s opinion that the assailant in this case demonstrated all manner of awareness and cognizance at this location. The assailant knew that this victim was not dead when they threw this victim into the water, and that the ligatures would assist to complete the act of deliberate homicide should the victim become conscious.
Lack Of Injuries
There is again a lack of evidence to support any sort of strangulation. Dr. Peretti states that his examination of the neck of this victim revealed no injuries, and the photos that this examiner has seen support that conclusion.
Analysis: He missed the wound to Stevie Branch’s penis entirely. While not contained in his formal autopsy report, it was proven during the trial that Dr. Peretti’s colleague was called into evaluate what Turvey was calling “bite marks” and was ruled out. The fact that bite impressions did not match Echols, Baldwin or Miskelley was in no way exculpatory, and I will save you the bite by some animal with a rough tounge report nonsense I had to read .
The 3” fracture at the base of the skull, which “spiderwebbed” into subsequent fractures, also very likely severed his spinal cord, so one must assume this injury was also quite perimortem.
Steve ‘s left face was found to be abraded on the entire left side, and is consistent with someone either stomping on right side of his neck and fracturing it, with an obvious boot print, if the left side of the face was on the ground.
The gouging wounds- likely had to be inflicted following the fracture due to the lack of hemorrhage in comparison to the severity of the wound, and all experts agreed the injury was likely perimortem. So the question becomes- why?
Seems like a very important question, second only to what caused the trauma, based on the constellation of terminal injuries already inflicted on him. Wouldn’t the only thing left to do at that point be to submerge him?
It is my theory- therein lies the problem. Byers was put in the ditch first, and we know he was already deceased, therefore, he sinks. Stevie Branch is placed in the water next to him, and he either begins moving or floats and the suspects thinks he is still alive, and uses an implement to force him into the ditch bottom until he succumbs and stays submerged. I will leave out the specifics of the gouging wound as to why I think that resulted in the usage of the other end of the ice axe on Michael Moore. The luminol result, found in the ditch bed itself, after it was drained, slightly downstream from Byers and Branch, but still upstream from Moore could also support this theory. We know that Byers had already bled out, but Branch was still alive when he was put into the water and the only significant bleeding wound on his person capable of leaving blood evidence in the bottom of the ditch to survive it simply being washed away in the creek, there is a high degree of probability he bled directly into the dirt. He was found face down.
Christopher Byers
Christopher Byers autopsy found here.
It should be noted that this victim’s injuries were the most extensive, most violent, and most overtly sexual of the all the victims in this case. The nature and extent of this victim’s wounds indicate that the assailant spent the most time with this victim.
Additionally, this victim’s toxicology report revealed non-therapeutic levels of carbamazepine in the blood. All of these differences are very important, and will be explored in the later sections of this report.
Wound Pattern Analysis
There are numerous violent, traumatic injuries to this victim’s head, specifically to the base of the skull. There was also evidence of the violent emasculation of the victim’s sex organs, extensive lacerations and bruising to the victim’s buttocks, as well as numerous superficial scratches, abrasions, and contusions noted throughout the rest of his body. Dr. Peretti also noted that there were numerous healed injuries of varying nature on this victim. Dr. Peretti, however, did not note the presence of defensive wounds.
Again, this indicates a violent, overpowering attack on this victim that he was unable to put up resistance against. The general constellation of wounds to this victim is more advanced, more extensive, more overtly sexually oriented and includes the use of a knife.
This knife was used not only to inflict multiple stabbing and cutting injuries to the victim’s inner thighs and genital area, it was used in the emasculation process. There is, unmentioned in either the ME’s or Coroner’s reports, what appears to be a clear impression of the knife handle on the right side of the large gaping defect left behind after the removal of the victims penis, scrotal sac, and testes. This was impression was created when the knife was thrust full length into the victim by the assailant, during the process of emasculation. This indicates forceful, violent thrusts. The nature of this emasculation, as indicated by these wounds, is neither skilled nor practiced. It was a rageful, careless, but purposeful act carried out in anger.
It is the opinion of this examiner that this injury would have resulted in massive, uncontrollable blood-loss, from which the victim could not have survived without immediate medical attention.
It should also be pointed out that the nature of the stab wounds inflicted on the victim’s genital area, separate from those received during the emasculation process, show marked irregular configuration and pulling of the skin. This indicates that either the knife was being twisted as the assailant stabbed the victim, or that the victim was moving as the blade was withdrawn.
The second set of injuries is described as five superficial cutting wounds on the left buttock (pictured on the left in this photo at the right). It should be noted that these injuries are actually lacerations, as indicated by the bridging between the open tissue, and the irregular edges. Both indicators are apparent upon close examination of the photographs. It is the opinion of this examiner that this set of injuries is most consistent with the parental whipping given to Chris Byers by Mark Byers. It is further the opinion of this examiner that after having received this set of injuries, which tore open the skin and would have resulted in some severe bleeding, the victim would have been unable to walk or ride a bicycle without incredible pain and discomfort.
The third set of injuries is the multiple linear superficial interrupted cuts on the right buttock region (pictured in the photo above on the right). These injuries are not consistent with having been made by a belt as they are cuts. The edges are not irregular, and the cuts are interrupted, again indicating movement by the victim or the assailant during the attack.
Furthermore, there is the existence of bruised ovoid compression injuries all over this victim’s inner thigh that could be suction type bite marks. Since the ME may have missed this crucial evidence, other areas of his body may show bite mark evidence as well. The autopsy photos of this victim supplied to this examiner were not of sufficient quality to make an absolute determination of any kind, and would require a thorough examination by a qualified forensic odontologist for an informed, conclusive analysis.
Bite mark evidence is very important in any criminal case because it demonstrates behavior and lends itself to individuation. It can reveal to an examiner who committed the act, because bite marks can be as unique as fingerprints and positively identify a suspect. And, once established, it also reveals the act itself; biting. The shoelace ligatures used to restrain this victim did leave deep furrows, and also did leave patterned abrasions on both the wrists and ankles. This indicates that the victim was struggling while the ligatures were in place. This indicates further that the victim was very much conscious before or after the ligatures were affixed to his wrists and ankles.
We know that this victim did not drown, that is to say that no hemorrhagic edema fluid was present in the victim’s lungs, or well in the victim’s mouth. This indicates that the victim was already dead when he was placed into the 2? ft of water in the drainage ditch at Robin Hood Hills. This is, again, very different from the other two victims in this case.
Dr. Richard Souviron forensic odontologist: all mutilation is peri and post mortem, no knife was used.
On a final note, Mr. Hale states in his supplemental report on Chris Byers that there is a stab wound on his head. This is actually incorrect, and rectified by Dr. Peretti who states in his autopsy report of Chris Byers that the same injury is a 1¼-inch laceration to the left parietal scalp.
There is also, again, a lack of mosquito bites to this victim, which, as mentioned earlier, suggests that he received his injuries elsewhere first. This because the injuries took time to inflict, time during which many mosquito bites would have been received, even after death.
Additionally, unlike Steve Branch, there is no overkill present in this victim’s face. That is to say that this is another of the marked differences between the killings of Steve Branch and Chris Byers which is very important to note, and which will be explored more thoroughly in this report.
Recommendations
It is apparent from the physical evidence in this case that Chris M. Byers was attacked with sudden, violent force from which he defended himself in only a limited fashion. It appears as though this attack took place, at least in part, while his cloths were off and while the shoelace ligatures restrained him. He was sexually assaulted (an assault of a sexual nature, to areas of the body considered to be sexual, that does not include sexual penetration), and associated stab wounds indicate that he may have been conscious during several phases of the attack.
Analysis: How does he miss that the dosage of (car) was sub therapeutic, meaning below the level at which he was described and confuse it as non-therapeutic, in his estimation, as a possible means to subdue him. He completely missed the fact that it is likely that the level, found in his blood, was greatly reduced because there was very little blood volume left in his body. AND, it was a prescribed medication. Turvey does not mention the other factors that support Byers died first, and he died quickly and violently. While he did have stomach contents, he did not have any urine in his blatter and there was substantative evidence his bowels had evacuated at the scene, commonly a result of an immediate violent death.
Consensus or Conundrum- Depends Who You Ask
Regardless of which expert one believes, within the confines of each report, is the absence of the belief with any certainty that the “Baldwin” serrated knife was used. What they all agree on, is that the gouging injuries to Branch and Byers were very similar. They all agree that there was evidence of blunt force trauma, significant curvilinear fractures, what is commonly referred to in Forensic Pathology today as “chop wounds”, other sharp force trauma.
Thoughts onPost Mortem Animal Predation
I agree it is possible that snapping turtles could have caused what looks to be possible claw marks and at least one possible bite mark. I am emphasizing possible because I don’t think one can rule out animal predation 100%
Bryn Ridge himself testified he has seen snapping turtles in that area, some time ago. That said, there was not so much as a crawfish found in that creek as it was being pumped out, and that included a screen.
Dr. Spitz went as far as to suggest that somehow a carnivore of some kind was the cause of the animal predation although all oter evidence suggests that the boys were completely submerged, as well as their clothing, and there was obviously no animal tracks or other artifacts at the scene that would make that theory sound anything remotely believable. Thankfully, he stopped short of suggesting that a new breed of homicidal carnivores with a cleaner crew who could walk upright was responsible.
Fortunately I Dressed For Bushwhacking
Starting with one of the most important parts of the autopsy evidence, is the very fact that detectives knew VERY LITTLE about it outside of the cause of death, until late May at the earliest. So little in fact, that Gary Gitchell, Lead Investigator, wrote a list of follow up questions to the crime lab on May 26. (need link here)
Frank J. Peretti, MD preformed all three autopsies on May 7, 1993, and filed reports on May 10th for cause of death only. Those causes of death btw, were all listed as homicide by multiple injuries, period. Nobody knew that two boys died from drowning, and not all three. This is particularly concerning because the first conversation that Steve Jones and Det Sudbury had with Damien Echols was on May 7th prior to autopsy and in his subsequent interview with Det Bryn Ridge on May 10, when asked by Ridge how he knew about that, Echols told Ridge that Jones told HIM that whoever did this “urinated” in the mouths of the boys.
Urine was found in the stomachs of 2 of the victims, but that information was given by phone only to Gitchell, and not before May 16th, 1993. There is no possible way Damien Echols could have had case- specific information unless he was there or knew someone that was that told him what occurred, as the detective interviewing him at the time was clueless to that fact during the interview.
There are certainly many statements by both Echols and Miskelley prior to arrest that indicate they had prior knowledge of the murders, but I have been able to ride the see saw on those for the most part, like many.
The fact that Echols knew that there was urine in the stomachs of two victims, when it was intentionally ommitted from the report can only mean he was there, or knew someone who was, and in my opinion, both.
To be continued, West Memphis Three Part III
Sources:
Crime lab Index: http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/crimelab.html
Chris Byers autopsy:
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/autcb.html
Michael Moore:
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/autmm.html
Stevie Branch:
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/autsb.html
Turvey Report: http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/b_turvey_profile.html
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mom 3.0, tell you what though ,i’d go see the movie where damien confronts his abuser,that could be the screenplay that seung hui cho wrote(virginia tech shooter).
Blink – was that CG offering her hand out in apology?
You can not apologize and then proceed to fill an entire post with poorly veiled attacks such as insinuating that I am stupid or I am narrow minded ect
CG, I realize that you backed out of the debate and no longer wanted to continue-
A simple I agree to disagree would have sufficed.
My point was, one can not know the back story, if one does not include all the information of the investigation, and the witnesses, and the jury tampering and all the rest…
That is all I am going to say to you CG as this “debate” is over..
AJMO
oops Posted two, as I was having trouble getting it to “take”, so I took the time to edit, well that was for naught. LOL
Traffic like the GW both ways both decks today, it is up.
B
Thanks Blinky
mjh, and susanm, I will be back later sorry to keep you hanging.Thanks for responding.
sigh It seems Depp is still a supporter
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1110/16/lkl.01.html
KING: What do you make of finally the release of the Memphis Three? You got involved in that battle. We did a whole show on it.
DEPP: Yes.
KING: We had them on. And they still not — they’re guilty. They’re out. But it’s crazy.
DEPP: It’s a very strange thing the state of Arkansas presented to them. Essentially, you know, to say, OK. All you have to do is say that we have the evidence to convict you again, and — but we’ll do time served and you’re out. Admitting guilt, maintaining your innocence. So it’s a very — you know, it’s a really floppy piece of ground to stand on.
KING: Why did you get involved?
DEPP: Because I — I knew immediately, you know, when I — when I first started to get, you know, kind of familiarize myself with the case, I knew instantly that they were innocent. I knew instantly that they were wrongfully accused. And the more research I did and the more people I spoke to, it was absolutely apparent.
KING: Did you have anybody say to you, you know, Johnny, you go out on a limb on a thing like this.
DEPP: Oh, yes, yes. A lot of people.
KING: Like what if they did it? You’re going to look bad.
DEPP: There was that kind of thing. Yes. But I just knew. I just knew, you know. I — it was just — it was ugly and — and a raw deal from the get-go. Back in ’93. And you’re thinking of these three kids, you know, one, Damien Echols on death row for 18 years. Ten years in isolation. You know, for a crime that he did not commit.
KING: You think Obama should pardon them?
DEPP: I mean, it would be wonderful. I don’t — I think he’s probably got a few other things on his mind at the moment. But, yes, yes. What I’m hoping is that the investigation will continue outside the courthouse right now and we will be able to prove the real killers.
Hi Mom3.0, I saw your comment from yesterday, and wanted to say thank you for thinking of my mom and I. Arrests are expected any day, it is a sad situation as we know the 19 and 17 yr olds who broke into her home. She was not in the home at the time. So much happening, but we are well. I do hope to have some time soon to rejoin the discussion, here, and review where you and I left off! I’ve tried to keep up, but I know I’ve got some reading to do. I’ll look forward to corresponding soon.
Hello’s to Graceinthehills and ATG – Thanks to both of you also for your kind thoughts from a few weeks back, it was nice to read your comments of support during those anxious days. My mom has handled everything alot better than me!
Kathy
Thanks for letting us know what has happened regarding the break in. You have clarified that your mom was not in the home. That was really bothering me.
Teenagers breaking in to steal for drug money? I know it is your mom’s home and it is only natural for you to worry. I did see some advertisements regarding video cameras that could transmitt to another location via the internet. Hughes.net had one that could be placed anywhere and could trasmit to a smart phone. You may want to do some investigation. The camera itself was not expensive, but that is only the beginning.
mjh
Thanks for responding about the telephone records. The reason for the none identification was just what I expected. An old non-smart relay based switch. Computer based switches would have given them the information.
West Memphis, Arkansas has changed a lot because of the interstate highway system. It is now simple to get to Memphis,Tennessee and that brings in a different group of people. The trucking companies have moved their terminals to WM and that brings in additional revenue to the town. It used to be like going back in time about 25 or 30 years when comparing WM to Memphis.
Mom3.0
What a lively debate between you and Canadian Girl. There were many things that both of you brought up that made me question if the investigation ever really considered those points. The investigator who is responsible for the twist in the occult was into that type of activity. He even taught classes or gave lectures regarding it. I am always suspicious of persons who do this because sometimes they look for an opportunity to include their favorite subject even if it doesn’t fit.
When our driver gets us to the destination, part III may provide some answers.
Do not be insulted by some of CG’s comments. You IMO do not fit those descriptions and never will. Some simply cannot disagree without making a remark that when in person you would clearly get the intent, but in prose it is difficult.
The person working for the Texas Certification agency was my oldest daughter, not my sister. My sister is my twin and she lives in Georgia. I am truly a fraternal twin unlike Blink’s sisters Miss ketchup and Miss mustard. LOL
Wow, I did not know you had a twin sister. I have a theory about men with sisters, most especially twins, it speaks volumes about the kind of person, husband and father you are.
Lol, at the condiments.
B
A Texas Grandfather says:
October 16, 2011 at 9:14 pm
“Our community band plays at the Kingsland Community Center two or three times each year for the Lions Club fund raiser. If you have ever attended one of these events, you have seen me play or conduct.”
ATG, I will be sure to bring this up to my father when I speak to him today. Certainly he has seen and heard you say around 1994?
A Texas Grandfather says:
October 16, 2011 at 9:36 pm
Morgan
I didn’t answer your question about the OWB in NY. Since this is not a political site I will point you to the Scared Monkeys site where you will find my opinion.
_________________
Thanks, kind Sir! I agree.
Grace, New England is so lovely, this time of year. I remain your envious of your travels. Enjoy!
ATG-
Yes, teenagers grabbing up gold jewelry for a quick sale at the gold store (that same day) in the mall and off to buy drugs. Lots of evidence pointing to the two who did it, but the most incriminating is the sale of my moms nursing pin from the college she graduated from and with her name on it!! Unfortunately for them, it is grand theft due to their finding some other assets that were easily removed from the home. These have been returned through one of their attorneys.
I am sorry to have left you wondering if she was in the home, I should have replied sooner, to clarify that. Thank you for the website info for the cameras, I will look into that. My brother flew down that weekend and had her security system updated, but I like the idea of cameras! Thank you again.
Kathy, I missed much of this. I am thrilled your Mum is ok, and her possessions returned, which imo, are invaluable.
B
Thank you Blink, I do so appreciate all that you juggle here, and always am glad to see your comments!
Ok, who all are twins here? I am one too.
@Shannon:
This is the strangest quote from Depp:
“DEPP: It’s a very strange thing the state of Arkansas presented to them. Essentially, you know, to say, OK. All you have to do is say that we have the evidence to convict you again, and — but we’ll do time served and you’re out. Admitting guilt, maintaining your innocence. So it’s a very — you know, it’s a really floppy piece of ground to stand on.”
Does he not realize the Alford plea was initiated and engineered by the defense attorneys he partially funded? The State “presented” nothing but certainly took the defense offer.
Depp either is clueless here or doesn’t want to admit the three remain guilty because they chose to plea.
@jack.
Exactly. It also illustrates how little he knows about the criminal justice system. Approaching the defense with a plea deal, and not the other way around would have Ellington disbarred.
Makes me crazy how irresponsible it is to throw celebrity behind factual errors.
mjh- thanks for trying to remember the name- I look forward to hearing your questions and comments, as soon as you are able.
kathy, you are welcome. I am glad to hear your mom has her treasures back- and that you both are doing well. I look forward to our continuing conversation kathy.
TGF, thank ever so much for your kindness. I am happy to know that you think so highly of me TGF, as I of you.
Sometimes one small word of kindness can erase any harm doen . Thank you and thank you for letting me know that you valued the debate and that it made you think, as that was my sole intention. I am in agreement with your points. I really do learn so much from your posts TGF, thank you for sharing
I am so sorry I mistook your daughter for your sister, my apologies. Thank you for correcting my mistake. I really do believe the women in your life, are blessed to have you around kind sir.
Blink, I wanted to say thanks for the swiss flag, nice touch…. and thank you for bringing that interview with Mr. Depp over. I know I tend to look on the bright side of life, but could it be that Mr. Depp just misspoke, and simply meant that it was strange all around-? Not necessarily that the plea agreement was brought forth by Mr. Ellington, but just that the plea offered obviously and accepted obviously and that it was “shaky”?
IDk, just trying to give a different perspective
AJMO
oops speaking of erasers, I am sorry for all the typos ect- I hate that
Susanm,
hello- I understand and commend your wanting to focus on the victims and plant trees in their memory- what a thoughtful idea.
I apologize if I took your comments wrong, that is why I asked if that is what you meant-
You clarified your reasoning when you wrote:
” i was being nice to pj,insinuating that he has noble reasons for taking an interest in damien,to help him heal,and i hope i am right.
Thank you for taking the time to explain.
As for the movie “Heavenly Creatures” it was based on actual events and in fact, all the voice overs were taken directly from Paulines real life journals.
I am not surprised that the film made you uneasy, susanm- as it was a look inside the head of a murderer, who did afterall, rationalize the killing of her mother, inorder to “protect” her friendship with Julia-
Mr. Jackson said of this dynamic- (pp) It is the story of a friendship that went horribly, terribly wrong-
I know you have been here on BOC for a long time susanm, so I believe you have heard me warn of the obsessive nature of teens- and how I feel their parents must be on the look out for signs of obsessive behavior- such as with first loves, or BFF friendships ect-
Because IME, it is often times “do or die” with teens, they feel their whole life is thrown in complete disarray if they suddenly lose their anchor/ obsession…
Teens should have many outside interests and they should be spending time with many people- parents need to make this happen for their children, as without balance it is easy to fall off a cliff….
IRT The Lovely Bones movie vs book
I agree that the book was much more graphic in describing the horrors of the rape ect- as the reader, no one had a doubt of exactly what happened to poor Susy- movies are different
First, I thought as a parent, NOT showing it, made it all the more scary and all the more real- as parents of missing children are left to only imagine what their loved ones endured..
Second, movies almost always stink in comparison to the book.
Third, if Mr. Jackson had kept the telling exactly the same, then it most likely would have had an R or an x or NC 17 rating…and to me, this would have been a shame, as Susy had just turned 14, she was a 14 year old girl, who was tricked by a serial killer/rapist into believing he was safe, and her mistaken trust helped lead her into the hands of this killer.
I believe all teens, near that age, benifited from watching the movie as it became a talking point for many parents to warn their girls (and boys) NOT to assume anyone is “safe” – not the “nice” neighbor down the street, not the friendly mail carrier, not the friend of the family ect-
Thank you for sharing that quote with us.
The quote that you provided, underscores Mr. Jacksons feeling regarding showing the brutality of what happened to Susy- THIS story was NOT about the horrors that befell young Susy at the hands of that sicko- it was the story of grief, and love, and longing and acceptance- and ultimately of hope.
As for Mr. Jacksons quote on wanting to make monsters.. susanm, he began his carrerr as a special effects guy, a genius some would say.. Many kids who grew up around the time of Mr. Jackson wanted to become special effects artists- becuase of their love of the Godzilla movies and westerns and aliens, and Dracula and The Mummy and all the rest of Universals (and others)”monsters”
I whole heartedly agree that artists, of all mediums, can make bad or good ” art” but the beauty of each piece is in the eye of the beholder.
In other words susanm, you are justified in your opinions, regarding the art, and so am I- but they are only our interpetations of what we see, and we can choose to see them in a certain light or not- but our interpetations should have no bearing on our thoughts regarding the intent or the Heart and mind of any artist.
AJMO
I do understand your feelings susanm, my feelings just arent the same as yours- and thats okay- we can agree to disagree.
Thanks again susanm.
AJMO
I think that Johnny Depp believes them to be innocent. He was hanging out with Damien just last week, he took Damien with him to get some new tats.
I agree he believes that.
B
Mom3.0 you are such a great and amazing person. I love to read your posts. You are so intelligent and fine.
well, what an excellent ending.i hope they find the real killer ,only then will i believe it, and they can explain jessie as well. the confessed killer in the heavenly ceatures film ,has criticzed the film notion that ,love separation was the motive, she claims she was an accomplice and she didnt wanted to go along with it,duty honor was the motive she claims,pauline sat by her hospital bed,and did duty to save her ,she returned the favor ,she thought pauline would commit suicide,because of her mother ,so eliminating the mother saved pauline. she claims now ,regardless,the critism has been made that both films neglected to show justice.
@Mom 3.0:
There is no doubt Depp “misspoke.” The question is whether it was a simple mistake or an attempt to obfuscate. There is little doubt in my mind Depp meant the State initiated the action but there indeed may have been more confusion than deception at play here. But as Blink wrote, if someone lends celebrity to a cause they should at least have some familiarity with the issues they address. Depp apparently did not, at least on this point. Far too much misinformation was spread by celebrities, often innocently, about this case and in my opinion it led to a bad result.
We can all disagree and reach different conclusions but those opinions need to be based on objective, actual facts. From what I’ve seen about this case, incorrect information takes on a life of its own rather quickly and rapidly becomes accepted as true. I’m not picking nits here because this happened all too often.
Morgan
If your family were in Kingsland in 1994 it was before my time. Although the band was organied in 1992, I did not join them until 1997.
Kathy
Thank you for the update, especially about your brother taking steps to update the security system. My youngs daughter has a 180 degree video camera that faces the street, plus inside cameras. This system has a cute little console like a laptop computer that is kept hidden in a cabinet. She also has a network connection to the desktop home computer that is connected to a T1 (DSL) line to the internet. She can use her computer at work to see what the cameras at home are capturing. In the event of a break-in an alarm is sent to the security company and to her work computer. She can then direct the video data on the hard drive to be saved to a file.
An now Blink knows just why I am so protective of women. If I ever see a man abusing a woman, he is going to have some serious trouble from me. My sister and her dates always got a lecture from me prior leaving our home about telling me exactly where they were going and what time they would be back. I know she didn’t particularly like it at first, but soon came to realize that I was deadly serious about her well being.
Susanm you might be interested in a new book entitled So Brilliantly Clever, by Peter Graham, a New Zealand lawyer and writer, about the Parker/Hulme case on which Heavenly Creatures was based. I’ve not read it but his work is well regarded.
@jack dobson… its amazing to me the number of supporters that actually believe the State presented this option and not the other way around, makes me wanna bash my head against a wall.
@cindy blair – thanks for the heads up on that book, I’ve always been interested in that case
Loni thank you so much for your thoughtfulness. I appreciate you too, you seem to be well informed and I marvel at your ability to master more than one language- very impressive to a girl that only had 3 years of HS spanish. LOL
Thanks for all the links you have been posting (mostly on Morgans threads)
Jack,
Hello, I agree with Blinks thoughts (I am adorable LOL- J/K)
I do think celebrities have a responsibility to inform themselves of any cause or issue they “champion”, and need to be sure their info is correct so as to state just the facts… but I also know that they are human too, and can make mistakes, or misspeak ect- and I dont think it has to be because they are trying to purposely lie or bewilder the misinformed masses.
I also agree with you, jack, there is alot of info that has been touted as fact in this case that is not… For instance, when I first began researching, I read JM was interrogated for 12 hours- alone without his father ect- ofcourse I now know this isnt true, but I mistakenly thought it was…
I researched and I found out the truth- we all must learn to seek out the information for ourselves or else we are setting ourselves up to be the fools-
Dont get angry at the misinformed people, Jack- just politely send them on a fact checking mission.
We should all learn never to accept others opinions and research ect as the truth- we must uncover it for ourselves.
AJMO
Here here, you certainly are the a -word.
Going post fishing, if I make it out from under the covers after American Horror Story, after spending the day with a slew of 12 year olds, I am ready, lol
B
My strategy: Record Modern Family. Watch AHS WITH Mr. Blink ( if he were away I would record it and watch during the day, no freaking way would I watch it alone). Then put on Modern Family.
If that does not work, keep an episode of the NJ Housewives reunion on hand, and throw that on, it is the one thing that I find scarier, lol.
B
hey now! there are alot of a- words that immediately come to mind dear Blink and some of em aint good LOL-
about the post fishing no worries…
poor Blink, Good Luck- Id never survive- sure the movie is freaky but the 12 year olds now that is scary…
G- night
LOL.
A D O R E !
B
oops i meant the show- not movie -it is very scary- what was up with that kid/demon in the basement? I swear I had nightmares-
@Mom 3.0:
Nicely put, and I couldn’t agree more with your main point.
To be clear, I am not angry at the misinformed. The result that flowed from the incorrect information alarms me on many different levels, not the least of which is how celebrity misrepresentations are embraced and defended without the independent thought you suggest. Has there been deliberate deception? Yes, quite a bit. Most ultimately was simple and unintentional error. Depp’s comments likely fall into the latter column as he is an actor and not an attorney or involved in the criminal justice system. I had thought he might become the first celebrity supporter to acknowledge there was something more to this case than a witch hunt, and when that did not happen I may have let disappointment lead me to ascribe his remarks to a baser motive than warranted.
I never was a supporter although there always was some question in my mind about the fairness of the trials. Nonetheless, even I who always thought the three were guilty bought into some of the more recent misinformation–mainly that the “softball girls” had recanted and the jury foreman had admitted misconduct. I accepted these false claims as facts until I got back up to speed on the case and found I had been misled (sometimes deliberately). I therefore can sympathize with those who have accepted false information as fact.
And as I finally got up to speed on the case, which I had not followed for more than a decade, the thing that struck me most was how little new information or actual evidence had surfaced (this surprise was compounded when it emerged Peter Jackson had spent ten million dollars to produce nothing). Nonetheless, public opinion had shifted largely because blatantly false claims had been made in the interim. And some of these were made by celebrities who no doubt had the best of intentions.
What has happened as a matter of law we must accept. If I can contribute anything to this case, it will be the correction of the misinformation. You are dead on there.
Finally, I have no doubt you are adorable.
OT~ I just got done watching American Horror Story….OMG Blink!!!!
You were so right….VERY scary….but I loved every second of it!
LOL.
Mom3.0 says:
October 19, 2011 at 8:00 pm
Mom3 says, “We should all learn never to accept others opinions and research ect as the truth- we must uncover it for ourselves.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Great post, Mom3.0. I once heard a cold case detective say something very similar regarding his work. Starting at the beginning and looking closely at a case with “fresh eyes” can be very helpful.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jack Dobson: I have really enjoyed reading your posts and your perspective on this case. Hope you don’t mind me asking you a question. In your opinion, what are the most common misconceptions and/or untruths that have been circulated irt the scientific evidence presented at the two trials?
Jack,
Hello again.
Thanks for setting me straight on anger vs alarm. I can most certainly agree with your concern over misinformation taking on a life of its own…. Not just in this case, but in all areas.
I also agree that most do it unintentionally, or without malice but then there are the few that use misinformation to spread propaganda to further their own agenda or hate ect.
jack, I appreciate your self analysis IRT hoping Mr.Depp would be the first celebrity to back your beliefs, and then being disappointed ect when that hope did not come to fruition. I understand your feelings, perhaps he will some day- who knows maybe some new evidence will come to light that will prove out your thoughts.
I am where you were, in the sense that I am still researching ect, and I question the fairness of the trials that convicted them. I also question the evidence that convicted them, and the investigation, and the witnesses, and the jury.
However, that does not mean that I believe they are innocent- I can not say that- there is a chance that LE got that part right, IDK-
I am still researching and still forming my opinions, I do however believe that there was, and is -reasonable doubt- and alot of that doubt centers around LEs mishandling, and the tunnel vision of JD and SJ and how that may have effected the case, along with the questionable testimony of witnesses who were less than forthright.
Jack, on the millions the defense spent, yet found no new evidence, to exonerate their clients- I definitely can see your point, but where you see this as a major point in the favor of guilt, I do not.
How do you find the evidence that LE could not? How can you rework a case that LE messed up? Especially when so much time has gone past after the murders occurred, and witnesses have died, and evidence is lost ect? It seems like an impossible task, even for the most innocent of clients, no matter how well-funded, you know?
I totally agree with your thoughts on having to accept what has happened as a matter of law. And I will join you in contributing my voice to helping to correct misconceptions, when I am able.
On your last opinion…Thanks Jack, for having no doubt- I think you are pretty adorable yourself LOL and such a great sense of humor too
AJMO
OT
Ha thanks Blink
xara- I missed the second episode- but the show is really creepy- the best part is I have no clue where this story is heading …anything could happen.
Grace- thank you for your comment. As I read through Callahans I cant help but wonder what this case would have been with a fresh set of eyes looking on…
Can you or anyone, answer if /when the FBI was called in to assist, and if not why not?
AJMO
oops I failed to include my thoughts to Cindy Blair in my last post..
Hi Cindy, I just wanted to say thanks for that book recommendation.
I found out a thing or two I did not know, from just reading the description and comments.
What of the justice, that was handed down?
Well it seems the girls only served 4 years of their sentence & then were released with the stipulation never to see one another again.
And as it turns out Julia is now a famous mystery writer.
I hope my local library has the book, as it seems like it would be worth the read.
AJMO
@Grace:
I will start with the short list of misconceptions/sometimes-propaganda and expand later:
1. The initial Misskelley confession was somehow coerced.
2. Along the lines of the above, that there was only one Misskelley confession.
3. Only Misskelley and neither of the others confessed or bragged about their crimes.
4. The three had alibis.
5. These three did not have violent backgrounds.
6. Echols’ severe mental illnesses were not severe.
7. The bodies were moved.
8. Mark David Byers killed the boys.
9. Terry Hobbs killed the boys.
10. Mr. Bonjangles killed the boys.
11. The Medford girls recanted.
12. Echols did not commit multiple perjury.
Ad nauseum. I will expand later, as I wrote.
@Mom:
I never attempt to convert anyone on this case. If you continue to read through the Callahan site and independently research, I think your opinions will shift particularly IRT the police and prosecutors, who got so much wrong but quite a bit right in the final analysis. You might have had a reasonable doubt, and that would have been all it took to acquit. Then again, you would have to recreate the original trials and have Echols testify. You can bet he would have avoided the stand if there had been a second trial. If I had sat on the jury, I would have acquitted until that point. Most supporters avoid discussion of Echols’ testimony. It was devastating.
Regardless of where you come down, as you continue to familiarize yourself with the case it will become apparent that even some of what you wrote above was based at least in part on misinformation. As for the fruitless expenditures of millions of dollars to try to create reasonable doubt, that isn’t evidence of course. But despite the passage of time, particularly given the advances in DNA, it does demonstrate to me, at least, these three were guilty as hell. I strongly suspect, and this is conjecture, the defense initiated plea bargain negotiations because they either found something they didn’t want to share with the state or didn’t unearth enough to create reasonable doubt. I imagine either way we have heard the last about the search for real killers or the alleged continued testing.
I didn’t expect Depp to declare guilt. However, I hoped he would at least acknowledge his acceptance of the cartoonish portrayal of this case as a modern witch hunt was misguided.
Alas.
Finally, Blink is a good judge of adorability, I think.
@atg – you make me smile, your family is so blessed to have you!
Hi Mom3.0 – I’ve restarted our conversaton a few times now, only to have it go poof, and gone. I think I get timed out or something, so while I admire your thorough and detailed posts, I’m going to admit “I ain’t all that!” and hope that my comments will be organized and understood, without the level of detail I aspire too!
Just to remind us where we left off, I will copy/paste your last comments to me(part 3) of your post from a few weeks back:
Mom3.0 says:
September 29, 2011 at 7:14 pm
continued part 3
Hi kathy me again- having trouble posting this one- trying again-
kathy, I am not saying that this “evidence” was not admissible, obviously it was, what I am saying is, it was not evidence of guilt in anyway- not when looking at “in and of itself” “or when taken “all together” in its totality… it still equals diddly squat in the way of “evidence”. IMO
DE’s knowledge and sharing of this knowledge does not prove that he was a evil witch or misguided wiccan-who killed these children, nor does it prove him to be a satanist or a dabbling devil worshiper,who was apt to kill these children. Taken “in and of itself” or in its totality, it doesnt even prove he was on the “dark side”
No evidence was ever collected at the scene ect, which pointed to these murders being a satanic ritualistic killing, or to a murder wrapped up in misguided “occult trappings”
Despite what was said in the closing arguments by the prosecution IRT religion being the motivation for many a killing throughout history, there was no evidence to show these murders were perpetrated by anyone who was even remotely motivated by religion in any form- not to Buddhism, not to Wicca and not to an Old testament sacrifice to God, ect.
All this occult “evidence” the clothes, the writings, the poems, the music, the drawings- do not go towards guilt, nor to prove anything, not motive, not poor character… these things were brought up inorder to make DE and JB “fit” into the theory, you know, the one SJ believed and the one JM “confessed” to, with his tales of dog eating, orgy having, doppelganger DE the briefcase wielding head hancho of the “cult”…
kathy, I do not know when the prosecution/state changed their thinking that these crimes were not Satanic ritualistic crimes or when they stopped thinking the motive was occult in nature…-
I do not know exactly when the State/LE ect came to this understanding. Perhaps it is when they took a step back and realized none of the evidence supports that theory- despite Sjones immediate belief that these were satanic ritualistic murders committed by DE.
In fact, according to Blinks first article- many did not want the prosecution to present this “evidence” from day 1, certainly not as motive, and I would think, not at all now, since everyone seems to now agree that these murders were not wrapped in “occult trappings” either-
All we have is Jesse saying this was happening, and we have possibly some candle wax on a victims shirt, and we have a whole lot of hearsay and JD and SJ beliefs that their was a cult in the area and that DE was the leader of it.…
Here is what Blink wrote in her first article:
http://blinkoncrime.com/2011/08/15/the-west-memphis-three-series-part-i-set-free-or-where-they-should-be
snipped:
Satanic Panic. Throw that phrase into any equation and I already do not believe it. This crime was in no way connected to a cult or an offering of sacrifice of any kind.
In December 2008 I had an opportunity to consult with retired 35 year FBI Behavioral Science Unit chief, Special Agent Ken Lanning, in a different case that showed elements of “Satanism”.
If he says there is no ritual activity associated with this crime, there is no better authority, and he does.
It should be noted prior to the prosecution phase of the murders, the FBI advised John Fogleman not to proceed with that angle as the motive.
-end quote-
Thanks for asking for my thoughts kathy, I look forward to reading more of yours.
Okay, me agin. Mom3.0, in Damien’s 5/10/93 interview, he tells the officer he is a wiccan and in that same interview he describes some of the wiccan beliefs -the symbol 3, the penis, the younger the more innocent, the water comments, etc. Although the other religions you mention in your post, also have signifigance to some of these factors, I do not have any reason to think Damien was referring to anything but his wiccan beliefs.
This brings me to my next point, I understand you have great concerns that the prosecution even made a connection to witchcraft and satanism and these crimes. This is probably where our opinions differ the most Mom3.0. Why shouldn’t they, if they believed it? You have siad they now have backed away from it, but what have they backed away from- the term “cult”, or “satanic”, or “witchcraft”? I don’t know, but I think there is great dismay over what to call these crimes. Would “bizzare, unusual, and evil” been appropriate? The defense witness, Robert Hicks went into great detail why he thinks officers should be very careful when it comes to religious crimes. His testimony is fascinating to me, because he goes around and around, stating that he believes officers can get tunnel vision about religious crimes, but states they do have an obligation to investigate these types of crimes. He says it is crucial to use “precise” language when trying these types of crimes. So, the prosecution should have used different language, okay. Could these murders have been commited by drunk teenagers who acted out bizarre and evil acts? Yes. But what we have in one of Damiens first interviews is his comments about his wiccan beliefs. Do all wiccans commit murder- of course not.
In Blinks part 1 of this series, she wrote:
Conversely, the prosecution is charged with presenting a case they believe will result in a conviction of the indictment as presented, while adhering to the rules of criminal procedure under the Arkansas supreme court.
I think it was the prosecutions job to present a case they believed would convict.
Mom3.0, I know you have stated there was no evidence to a satanic ritual. Are you saying since there were no candles, symbols or otherwise at the location where the bodies were found, it was inappropriate for the prosecution to make a connection to Damiens bizarre beliefs and behaviors? Because they didn’t leave a sign, some sort of message that the killings were related to satanism?
I think I’m spinning my wheels here, but at the moment C word killed Caylee, can we know for sure why she did it? It was only speculation that she wanted a different life, a single life. Maybe she killed her because she spilled juice on one of her dresses? The prosecution used her habits, lifestyle, etc., to present a motive for why C word did what she did. I dont really see a difference between the two approaches by the prosecutions on these cases.
Mom3.0, I will wrap this post up for fear it might dissapear. I will try to sum up, that to me the terms satanic ritual, cult, occult, are confusing. That has been the prosecutions toughest job, what to call these murders. Or I should say, it has been what they have taken the most criticism over. In reality, the discussion of whether there were satanic undertones, to me, is a result of the very limited and understandably doubtful evidence and testimony. Mom 3.0, I am not able to edit, to check where my use of words could have been better (due to my not mastering the ipad), but I hope you will see my comments as they are intended, to further understand your viewpoints as we muddle through our thoughts. Thank you!
You made it Kathy, and a brief note of thanks to both you and Mom 3.0-
There are many outstanding posts and posters at BOC, this is an example of both.
Respectful, researched, and with links to succinct information with really no “outside” interpretations.
My only clarification is that the shirt did possess candle wax, and it was blue and was consistent with those recovered from Echols. You are only really going to find this in a sidebar conversation wrt paintings found in Jason Baldwin’s residence as testified to in context, and disallowed, by Lisa Silvetikus (sp?)
This is one of the reasons when reviewing the totality of a case, my protocol is to review all the court records first ( I realize y’all are not going to have that kind of blocks of time, and have said so).
B
@Grace:
I am sorry to do this piecemeal, but due to work and so forth I must.
Here is another excellent representation of misinformation/propaganda:
The DNA evidence exonerated the three.
This deserves a link and an explanation for why this particularly troubling.
The DNA evidence did not exonerate anyone. It conceivably could create reasonable doubt, although that was shaky, because a hair was consistent with and probably belonged to stepfather Terry Hobbs. Yet the DNA tests were falsely presented as, and are widely believed, to be exculpatory.
I had nothing but tremendous respect for the defense team until this story emerged: http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2011/oct/16/west-memphis-3-case-shows-shift-toward-pr/.
Now consider what this means. Public relations was employed so as to implant a false belief the DNA tests exonerated the three. The bottom line is, and it will be denied but tough, the defense hired a PR agent to taint a possible jury pool. This is beyond disgusting–it is prohibited to do so intentionally. Say what you want about Jose Baez, but he never even came close to such an outrage.
I’ll add more examples as time permits.
@Grace:
This example of misinformation/propaganda also bothers me because I bought into it, researched, and found it was false (this happened several times to me):
Michael Carson was a typical jailhouse snitch who perjured himself to get out of jail; his counselor proved it.
Again, and this happened a long time ago, as I delved into this particular nuggest it was with the belief that this was one supporter claim that could not be denied. Jailhouse snitches typically can be discounted because they have something, or quite a bit, to gain from the “right” testimony.
Here is the link to Carson’s trial testimony: http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/ebtrial/mcarson.html
At the time this was given, Carson had nothing to gain whatsoever. He was off probation and did not have pending charges. He was not entitled to any financial gain. This was uncontroverted, so the defense honed in on his history of juvenile crime rather than a possible motive for his testimony.
So with Carson, here is what we have: multiple Misskelley confessions, Echols admissions–uncontroverted now that he has admitted inadvertently he perjured himself when he testified he did not make them (current out-of-court version: they were jokes); and Baldwin’s statement to Carson. It is extremely rare for all multiple defendants to give confessions or make admissions unless they are apprehended at the crime scene.
Three co-defendants made independent confessions, statements and admissions. The Echols/Baldwin jury, due to Burton, only heard about their statements and admissions. The jury misconduct claim arises from the allegation the jurors took into consideration the Misskelley confessions.
As for the counselor Danny Williams, who originally claimed Carson had repeated what was told to him, he recanted. The defense elected not to call him to the stand.
Jack
Thanks for bring the link to the Sour publicity stunt. This is pure propaganda and should not have any place in our criminal justice system.
The insanity is that prior to DNA, the criminal justic system had to use other means to prove a case.
Are we becoming a society that must have theatre in the public media for everything? To think that DNA must be found pointing to the accused is the only thing that will be accepted as total proof for a criminal deed tells us we need to better educate people about how things work. Only education will eleminate such propaganda as possible truth.
@TG:
You are most welcome.
I have suggested there may have to be a pattern jury instruction developed that deals precisely with the DNA issue. It will be difficult to do in such a way that protects the rights of the defendant, but I trust one can be drafted that accomplishes both goals. If the current trends continue, it will become necessary to do and from all indications things will get worse. Inferences are being drawn now when they should not be.
Your question is dead on. We are becoming such a society. People have a hard time now dealing with circumstantial evidence, which in some cases is better than direct evidence (particularly in the case of eyewitnesses). Since I don’t have a link I won’t try to be more specific, but an astonishing percentage of rapes, let alone murders, do not result in DNA evidence.
You make excellent and frightening points.
Thank You, Blink! I was going to throw myself under the bridge as it were, because that was my third attempt to post. Oh, the surprise and gratitude that somehow it made it!!! Thank you also for your comments, I appreciate it, cause there is always that chance I may be in left field. I did know of the candle wax, just wasnt sure which clothes it was found on, so I didnt bring it up, but am glad you clarified it. Thank you again, I don’t think I want to know how you pulled that off!
Kathy and jack thanks for your responses.
I just wanted to let you know it may take me a bit before I can write back-
Sorry. Dont worry though
Ill Be Back
Here’s a spooky coincidence for those of you interested in the Parker/Hulme case. The murder occurred in Christchurch NZ. Christchurch was also the scene of the moral/satanic panic Civic Creche case. In 1993 (year of the WM3 murders) Peter Ellis was convicted on multiple counts of child sex abuse against children in his care at the civic creche. His 3 female co-workers were charged as well but by the time the case came to trial at the High Court the charges against the women were dropped. He was sentenced to 10 yrs and paroled after 7. The case had many similarities with the US childcare abuse cases of the late 80′s including Kelly Micheals and McMartin. I was in law school at the time of the Ellis trial so it was fascinating to follow.
Hello Jack- That is why I like you- you do not try to force your thoughts on anyone. I appreciate your tact.
I do not know where I will end up Jack- But I can tell you, that no matter what side I end up on- I will never be able to take into account Narlenes testimony nor Jessie confession, nor the softball girls descriptions of the supposed overheard conversation, nor Carsons “remembrances”
I would think that if it is apparent they are guilty, then I should be able to get to “guilt” without these questionable statements/testimonies. I just dont believe these people were truthful Jack, not even in the same ball park…
I have read your posts to Grace, and you make some important points, IRT the soft ball girls, and Carson- but not enough to make me disregard my feelings on this.
I will keep researching, never fear.
I am looking forward to more of your posts Jack, as I think your style is one which makes me want to jump the fence, and your points are well thought out and backed with links ect- so I can understand and follow your thought process, even if I cant always agree.
AJMO
Kathy, I am sorry I will try to respond tomorrow to your thought provoking post, I hope to sneak some free time.
@Mom:
Echols admitted to CBS he “probably” boasted to the softball girls so it should not be difficult to accept he made those particular admissions. The reporter, of course, didn’t confront Echols with the obvious fact he testified he did not brag about the murders.
As for Carson, I completely understand why someone would disregard his testimony. I did until research indicated my assumptions about a likely motive were invalid.
People such as Misskelley make false confessions time to time. I don’t know of another prominent case where someone confessed both pre-and post-conviction as Misskelley did, though.
As for the testimony and statements of Narlene and her husband, it always has been a wash for me. The demonstrably false alibis given by Echols and Misskelley, and Baldwin’s utter refusal even to concoct one, are more damning about opportunity.
A unique aspect of this case is the ready availability of so much information. While I don’t try to convince anyone about what to think it is easy to direct them to the places where they can make an informed opinion. It is more than obvious you have found those places, Mom.
Hi Blink- just wanted to give you a heads up that some posts are coming with more than 2 links.
Thanks
Your up ma’am.
B
Hi Kathy.
I so appreciate you wanting to continue the conversation, and thanks for refreshing my memory with my last post.
I’m gonna break this up cause as everyone knows I tend to be very thorough bordering on novelistic in my posts.
I hope youll stay with me-
You wrote in part:
Okay, me agin. Mom3.0, in Damien’s 5/10/93 interview, he tells the officer he is a wiccan and in that same interview he describes some of the wiccan beliefs -the symbol 3, the penis, the younger the more innocent, the water comments, etc. Although the other religions you mention in your post, also have signifigance to some of these factors, I do not have any reason to think Damien was referring to anything but his wiccan beliefs.
Those other belief systems I mentioned do not have just some of these “factors” all the belief systems I mentioned, along with many more that I did not, Hold these same beliefs such as:
3 being a special number, as well as the penis being a symbol of power and any offering being younger = more innocent= more power= Heck anyone watching scary movies would be able to spout off that knowledge.
Just because DE answered the officers questions, and just because SJ believed these were satanic crimes and DE was the only person capable of them. does not mean DE did it-
In this same interview Ridge notes Damiens like of Stephen King, and his like of Anton Levey…Huh? I thought it was Aliester Crowley…oh well any “satanist’ will do, even one that recanted on his death bed..and converted… and in this same interview they ask DE what his favorite book in the bible is, and they note his E V I L tattoo…but yet all this info they garnered from DE, it was said he was not a suspect at the time, and that these were all “general knowledge” questions… wow okay if they say so…
Kathy what difference does it make if he was talking about wiccans beliefs or not? What bearing does it have?
BTW
I am not so sure that Damien is describing these things as part of his Wiccan beliefs Kathy, and you should question whether or not DE was speaking directly to his own beliefs or of his “general knowledge” of other religions, as it seems that the notes taken by Ridge differ on many points depending upon which version one reads., and I might add, that these differing points are not only exclusive to the “trappings” but to each and every aspect of what DE supposedly stated to these officers.
Please read through each for a comparison, and then ask yourself, were certain details taken out of context? Were others misunderstood? and why wasnt this interview taped as to make sure there was no room for misunderstanding, or misstatements? and then ask yourself where are the notes of Det Sudbury ?-
The only ones I could find are:
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/d_echols/sudbury_notes.jpg
and
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/desud.html
Which are from his notes from the visit with SJ at DE’s home… and Sudbury states:
On the day after the bodies of the three boys were found I had a conversation with Steve Jones, a Juvenile Officer for Crittenden County, Arkansas.
In our conversation I found that Steve and I shared the same opinion that the murders appeared to have overtones of a cult sacrifice.
During our conversation Steve mentioned that of all the people known by him to be involved in cult type activities one person stood out in his mind, that in his opinion, was capable of being involved in this type of crime. That person was Damien Echols.
–
Seems Sudbury already had the questions formulated in his mind, along with the only person thought to be capable of murders which he deemed to have “overtones of cult sacrifice”
Back to that may 10th interview,
snipped from different reports documenting same May 10th DE interview-
hand written report:
Damien stated that the penis is a strong symbol of power.
Damien stated that because there was three victims it was symbolic because three is a special number
Damien stated that there was no control over the demonic portions of people.
Damien stated that the younger the victim would mean more innocent and in turn the more power given to the person doing the killing.
Damien stated there would probably be stones, candles, a knife, and/or crystals in the area where the bodies were found.
Next:
He also stated that the penis was a symbol of power in his religion known as Wicca he also stated that the # 3 was sacred # in the belief.
When asked if water had any type of meaning in Wicca or black magic damien stated that water had a demon like symbolism and that all people have a demonic force. He further stated that people have control over the demonic force in them.
When asked why he thought the victims were so young he stated that the younger the victims then the more innocent the victim would be that in turn meant that the more innocent the victim would be the more power that the person would have gotten from the sacrifice.
Damien went further to explain that in his Wicca religion he knew that evil done comes back 3 times he stated that means that any evil done by a person would be rewarded by the person doing the dead having 3 times the evil done to him in revenge
When asked what kind of items we should be looking for He stated that we should be looking for stones in the area, candles. A knife and some type of crystals.
Kathy, just because SJ pointed his finger at DE, and just because DE had two books from the library and tattoos, and a journal of notes and lyrics ect does not mean that he was the one that committed these “cult like sacrifices” it seems to me, DE was only sharing what he had learned at LEO beseeching- and what he knew and shared painted him as a satanic driven murderer in the eyes of the police….
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/dwec.html
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/dwe.html transcribed
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/d_echols_may10_notes.html
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/d_echols/de_ridge_report_01.jpg
Thanks for asking for my opinions Kathy and I think your post was perfect- I wish I had the gift of editing ..
AJMO
Continued Part 2-
Part 2
Hi kathy you wrote:
This brings me to my next point, I understand you have great concerns that the prosecution even made a connection to witchcraft and satanism and these crimes. This is probably where our opinions differ the most Mom3.0. Why shouldn’t they, if they believed it?
–
–Kathy- I do not care if they believed it or not, the evidence itself does not back up this theory in any way shape or form.
The victims were bound- yes sadly this is the case for most murdered and abducted children-
The victims were mutilated- sadly this is the case for most little child victims recovered- they are beaten and stabbed and burned and tortured- yes most are not castrated but that would tend to point toward a sexual deviant not a misguided Wiccan would it not?
The victims were left in water- most child victims are disposed of in water and in wooded areas
The candle wax you say? I’ll address this concern in a later post too many thoughts to include here.
_ What of some of the evidence presented against DE and JB? You know, the poems and the clothes and the drawings?
These are derived from their taste in music kathy, what wasnt taken directly and copied is still written in the same manner mood ect- as a young man that enjoys this music, and is depressed and lovelorn and wants to some day become a scary poem or book writer…
See here:
http://callahan.8k.com/images/damiene/writings/notebook_intro.JPG
The introduction to his heartache began as a child
So it’s no wonder that he grew up to be so wild
So he protected his feelings in walls he imagined
But castles crumble exposing the frightened child
Fire in the sky
Can’t you see that all my castles are burning?
Fire in the sky
Won’t you help me now, my castles are burning
In solitude he couldn’t deal with his own existence
The burning questions in the castles have still remained
God only knows how he searched in vain for the answers
Now castles crumble exposing his naked flames
Fire in the sky
Can’t you see that all my castles are burning?
Fire in the sky
Won’t you help me now, my castles are burning
Fire in the sky
Can’t you see that all my castles are burning?
Fire in the sky
Won’t you help me now, my castles are burning
Oh
Fire in the sky
Can’t you see that all my castles are burning?
Fire in the sky
Won’t you help me now, my castles are burning
Fire in the sky
Can’t you see that all my castles are burning?
Fire in the sky
Won’t you help me now, my castles are burning
Fire in the sky
Can’t you see that all my castles are burning?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAIqklIyuTU
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/d_echols/de_poem.JPG
Well I know where you live
I know you live alone
Ill pay a visit in your darkest hour
ve got a treat in store
Wont be the same no more
And I will demonstrate my holy power
Chorus:
I see through
What is it inside you
Ill make you
Breakdown, breakdown
Breakdown and cry
Devils daughter
You dont want a holy war.
Devils daughter
You dont want a holy war
You know what Im about
Ill cast the demons out
And Ill persist until the battles won
Ill feel your creeping flesh
If youre to be possessed
Then I will desecrate what youve become
Chorus
Devils daughter
You dont want a holy war
Devils daughter
The time has come at last
Your future days have past
No use in fighting battles you cant win
The final conflicts lost
You cant afford the cost
Dont try to expiate your fathers sins
Chorus
Breakdown, breakdown
Breakdown and cry
D…d…d…devils daughter (Im watching you watching you)
D…d…d…devils daughter (Im watching you watching you)
D…d…d…devils daughter (Im watching you watching you)
D…d…d…devils daughter aaahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hvwq8Bx4JM
BTW the other lyrics on the page about God and dancing are taken from Tattooed rock n roll dancer another song by Ozzy
http://callahan.8k.com/images/damiene/writings/notebook_changeworld.JPG
BTW The changing the world statements…they were taken from another of Ozzys songs I dont want to change the world…
http://callahan.8k.com/images/damiene/writings/notebook_changeworld.JPG
Well I know
I could be just another stranger
But to you
I guess I’m just another fool
And you swear
You like to live your life in danger
Then you hide
Behind a wall of silly rules
Nobody thinks the way I do
I guess that nobody dares
Your head’s so full of things, so set your mind free of
them
I’m breaking the rules
Did you know
That in the truth, there’s nothing stranger
I suppose
You think I think I know it all
Chorus:
Nobody hears the things I say
I guess that nobody cares
My head’s so full of things I set my mind free of them
I’m breaking the rules
Breaking all the rules
Can’t you see they’re nothing without you
Empty heads full of fools
Now you see
Yes, I’m breaking all the rules, breakin’ all the rules
Well I know
That you would love to go to heaven
But you know
That you’re just too afraid to die
And I know
That you would love to know the answers
But to you
The truth is just another lie
Chorus
Breaking all the rules
Why don’t you tell them
Breaking all the rules, a come on, a come on
Breaking all the rules, why don’t you get it on,
Breaking all the rules, a come on, a come on
Breaking all the rules, aaaallll right now
Breaking all the rules, a come on, a come on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtPc3Fygvb8&feature=related
AJMO
Cont part 3
Part 3 continues-
I know you probably arent a metal music lover kathy, and I know most here are not either, and unfortunately neither were the WM police, that is why I want to be sure you all understand that DE writings and feelings were mostly derived from music
http://callahan.8k.com/images/damiene/poison_cure_poem.JPG
I miss the warm embrace I felt
First time you touched me
Secure and safe in open arms
I should have known you’d crush me
A snake you were when we met
I loved you anyway
Pulling out your poisoned fangs
The venom never goes away
Serpent swims free in my blood
Dragons sleeping in my veins
Jackyl speaking with tongue
Roach egg laying in my brain
Once stalked beneath your shadow
Sleepwalking to the gallows
I’m the sun that beats your brow in
’til I finally threw the towel in
Never knowing if I’d wake up in a
Whirlpool got redundant
My brain was just some driftwood
In a cesspool I became dead
From a rock star to a desk fool
Was my destiny someone said
Love’s a tide pool
Taste the waters life’s abundant
Taste me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr6SHn56wXc
Kathy
You went on to write:
You have siad they now have backed away from it, but what have they backed away from- the term “cult”, or “satanic”, or “witchcraft”? I don’t know, but I think there is great dismay over what to call these crimes. Would “bizzare, unusual, and evil” been appropriate?
Kathy- I would think that they backed away from all these terms and finally were going to take the advice of the FBI- these crimes were not “Satanic” they were not “cult like” and they were not enveloped in any form of “witchcraft”
There IS NO EVIDENCE of this at all-
Why would there be any dismay over what to call these crimes Kathy? Call them what they are: deplorable, viscous, hateful, horrific, sickening- one does not have to believe they were Satanic to know they were committed by horrible people kathy, nor does one O have to believe they were perpetrated by misguided “evil” Wiccans to know they were committed by misguided and deviant murderers Kathy.
All the evidence held up to support these being “cult like” crimes or “ritualistic crimes ” or being enveloped in “occult trappings” are bogus -JM confession- the boys clothes, DEs readings, writings, drawings, JB clothes and music and drawings- these were wrongly held up as evidence to try to paint them as the murderers to prove LEs misguided theory of a Satanic or cult like crime-
Kathy, I am sorry but I will have to come back and continue, as I didnt hide well enough ha ha- Mommy duties await…..
Ill continue later thanks-
AJMO
Blink- Did you get Part 2 and 3? They may have gotten lost as they contain lots of links—in fact I may have went overboard with links LOL Sorry
Part 4
Hi Kathy I am back- Ill try to finish this up, again I want to say thanks for continuing the conversation with me, as I think getting a different perspective is always good.
You wrote:
This brings me to my next point, I understand you have great concerns that the prosecution even made a connection to witchcraft and satanism and these crimes. This is probably where our opinions differ the most Mom3.0. Why shouldn’t they, if they believed it? You have siad they now have backed away from it, but what have they backed away from- the term “cult”, or “satanic”, or “witchcraft”? I don’t know, but I think there is great dismay over what to call these crimes. Would “bizzare, unusual, and evil” been appropriate? The defense witness, Robert Hicks went into great detail why he thinks officers should be very careful when it comes to religious crimes. His testimony is fascinating to me, because he goes around and around, stating that he believes officers can get tunnel vision about religious crimes, but states they do have an obligation to investigate these types of crimes. He says it is crucial to use “precise” language when trying these types of crimes. So, the prosecution should have used different language, okay. Could these murders have been commited by drunk teenagers who acted out bizarre and evil acts? Yes. But what we have in one of Damiens first interviews is his comments about his wiccan beliefs. Do all wiccans commit murder- of course not.
—-
Kathy- They used DE‘s knowledge/ religious beliefs and the clothes and the “poems” and the drawings ect to show that when all these things were taken together in their totality DE was soulless and capable of committing these crimes….
They painted these crimes not as anything but murders that were ritualistic, satanic, cult-like crimes perpetrated by dabbling devil worshipers or misguided Wiccans -they went to that interview asking DE about his beliefs- Sudbury had already formed the opinion with SJ that these murders were likely done by DE and that the motive was most likely satanic or cult like…
The questions were designed to paint DE as the perp- Sudbury knew he liked Steven King- he knew he had old witch books from the library- he saw the books and the stain on the back of it, and all the rest.
It is clear LE had a theory on the whys and what fors of this crime and they were determined to run with it-
Despite no stones at the scene, despite no crystals, despite no evidence of bonfires, or staffs, or orgies or esbats or briefcases with pics of victims, or human or animal sacrifices, they still believed these murderers were perpetrated for misguided religious beliefs.
Yes, these murders could have been committed by drunk teens with no wiccan ect beliefs….they could have been committed by adults who were just sick pigs ….they could have been committed by a rogue LEO any # of people could have committed these murders-
but they were not fingered by SJ and they were not deemed worthy by Sudbury and nooneelse had library books on witches and they were not fingered by JM and they did not answer all of the questions presented to them about their knowledge of black magic or Satan or the # 3 or penis power, or water stopping demonic forces- you know like the dead can not cross it… they did not share their knowledge of the occult.
In fact DE in these interviews, stated over and over again that he felt that these murders were a thrill kill done to scare someone, and that the perp would be a local, and would not run, and that he would have chose these 3 little boys because of their size and their intelligence, and the ease in controlling them.
He never mentioned thinking that these murders were done by devil worshipers or satanists or misguided Wiccans as a sacrifice
Kathy what makes you think that DE’ s beliefs as a Wiccan had anything to do with these murders? What points towards that scenario?
JM’s witch/orgy /dog eating tales?
Narlenes and Tabithas descriptions of DE as “mean and evil” and “he makes with the devil garbage?
What? LE’s theory that the FBI warned them against using?
Kathy you wrote:
In Blinks part 1 of this series, she wrote:
Conversely, the prosecution is charged with presenting a case they believe will result in a conviction of the indictment as presented, while adhering to the rules of criminal procedure under the Arkansas supreme court.
I think it was the prosecutions job to present a case they believed would convict.
Kathy- I agree with Blinks thoughts but I do not believe the prosecution did this and if I am able, I will address this in the post about the wax… I apologize but it will be long.
You wrote:
Mom3.0, I know you have stated there was no evidence to a satanic ritual. Are you saying since there were no candles, symbols or otherwise at the location where the bodies were found, it was inappropriate for the prosecution to make a connection to Damiens bizarre beliefs and behaviors? Because they didn’t leave a sign, some sort of message that the killings were related to satanism?
Kathy, Yes, it was wrong. I understand where you are coming from, but just because you believe that DE beliefs were bizarre doesnt mean they are. Many law abiding citizens are Wiccans and many more law abiding citizens behaviors could be seen as strange or other- and still many more have adolescent medical and criminal records but they never hurt anyone.
You might be working the case backwards with a perp already in mind, just as I believe LE did the first time around….If there was no evidence surrounding the crimescene or in regards to the murders which pointed to ritualistic murders- then how does ones beliefs in Wicca even get used as evidence, and how does lyrics to songs and poetic musings and “satanic” drawings even get considered as evidence.
And how can it be used as “character evidence”?
Why did they have that occult guy/expert testify to complete and utter BS? How does being a Wiccan or a metal head goe to character flaws?
You wrote:
I think I’m spinning my wheels here, but at the moment C word killed Caylee, can we know for sure why she did it? It was only speculation that she wanted a different life, a single life. Maybe she killed her because she spilled juice on one of her dresses? The prosecution used her habits, lifestyle, etc., to present a motive for why C word did what she did. I dont really see a difference between the two approaches by the prosecutions on these cases.
Kathy I disagree, there is a big difference- LE did their job in the Casey Anthony case LE followed every lead, every avenue. They searched for the nanny, they didnt immediately have any theory on why and how Casey murdered Caylee.
They did not make up evidence to support any theory- they used the trunk evidence of chloroform, and the evidence of duct tape.. and Caseys behaviors after the murder partying and all the rest.
Casey Anthony listened to rap ect this wasnt pulled out with lyric sheets of her favorite music to show she wrote these as “poetry” nor was the seven dust song about drowning and screaming…nor was the Tupac quote attributed to her as “poetry”– Casey was a democrat, this was not pulled out to show she was a girl with loose morals…Casey dressed provocatively these photos were not shown as character evidence. Casey did not go to church, she was not asked her belief in God or a devil Even though Caylee was found in the woods dismembered and had signs of binding ect.
Kathy you wrote;
Mom3.0, I will wrap this post up for fear it might dissapear. I will try to sum up, that to me the terms satanic ritual, cult, occult, are confusing. That has been the prosecutions toughest job, what to call these murders. Or I should say, it has been what they have taken the most criticism over. In reality, the discussion of whether there were satanic undertones, to me, is a result of the very limited and understandably doubtful evidence and testimony.
Kathy thanks for making sure your posts went through i am glad you dint give up.
But, again- the evidence NEVER backed any of this doubtful testimony – LE should have realized looking at the crimescene and the victims that these were NOT ritualistic crimes- they should have known from the LACK of SUPPORTING EVIDENCE that JM’s stories of dabbling devil worship witch meetings complete with dog eating/boiling and the DE doppelganger head hancho were COMPLETE lies.
you wrote:
Mom 3.0, I am not able to edit, to check where my use of words could have been better (due to my not mastering the ipad), but I hope you will see my comments as they are intended, to further understand your viewpoints as we muddle through our thoughts. Thank you!
Kathy, no worries on editing I thought your post was spectacular, I just see things much differently then you. Where you see LE has uncovering DE as the killer, and basing their case on misuse of terms and misguided religious beliefs I see LE determining that these were ritualistic murders and finding any and all evidence that would support this bogus belief along with making sure that DE was the perp as he was the only one “capable”….
AJMO
Sorry for the length.
jack dobson says:
October 21, 2011 at 11:20 am
@Jack, first of all, I want to thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. It is obvious that you have thoughtfully processed all of the details of this case over time. You write with great passion and conviction regarding your belief in the guilt of JM, JB and DE. I followed this case at the beginning but lost track after the trials ended. I have recently reviewed the JM and JB/DE trial transcripts and documents at Callahan. It was an exhausting experience.
jack dobson says:
At the time this was given, Carson had nothing to gain whatsoever. He was off probation and did not have pending charges. He was not entitled to any financial gain. This was uncontroverted, so the defense honed in on his history of juvenile crime rather than a possible motive for his testimony.
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@Jack: I would agree that motive and secondary gain are generally easier to prove when the witness is still in custody with charges pending. That being said, Carson was likely not the first nor was he the last ‘jailhouse snitch’ to come forward after being released from custody. Was his testimony irt what JB allegedly told him truthful or not? Only he knows. It did not appear to accurately reflect the evidence, IMO. I also do not believe he testified truthfully regarding the timing of his conversations with his counselor, Danny Williams.
For me, motive and gain/secondary gain are interesting to explore when it comes to witnesses, particularly in the context of high profile trials such as this. In his testimony, Carson claimed he came forward after he witnessed the suffering of the victims’ families as they were interviewed on television. I was not surprised that Carson would report this as a motivating factor, as I have heard it before from these types of witnesses. The legal and financial gains you mentioned are only two of many potential gains, so I do not agree that he had nothing to gain whatsoever from testifying. Of course, if he testified truthfully, the most obvious gain for him would be the satisfaction most individuals get from ‘doing the right thing.’ Another possible gain for him could be that the public and the victims’ families might see him as a hero for helping to ‘put the bad guy away.’ He may have enjoyed the positive attention he received from LE and the prosecution, the ‘side’ who persecuted him in the past. He could have also viewed testifying against JB as a possible way of redeeming himself in the eyes of the public, given his juvenile record. His “soft heart” apparently did not preclude him from burglarizing at least two homes.
jack dobson says, “As for the counselor Danny Williams, who originally claimed Carson had repeated what was told to him, he recanted. The defense elected not to call him to the stand.”
@jack: I have read the transcribed sworn statement that Danny Williams gave to prosecutor Brent Davis on Feb. 18, 1994. When and what exactly did Williams recant, and to whom? Do you know why Williams was not called by the defense?
Again, thanks so much for responding.