Ramsey’s Indicted In JonBenet’s Murder In 1999- DA Alex Hunter Refused To Prosecute
According to a new report exclusive by the Daily Camera- Both John and Patsy Ramsey were indicted by a grand jury in 1999 for child abuse leading to her death- but prosecutor Alex Hunter refused to sign the indictment because he did not feel there was sufficient evidence to secure a prosecution against either parent.
The report lays to the rest years of lingering rumors that although the grand jury which was suspended more than once while hearing the Ramsey case was never polled.
In July 2008 then Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy, publicly exonerated the Ramsey’s in an open letter after Touch DNA testing proved the suspect in Jon Benet’s assault and murder was an unrelated male whose profile matched DNA in a blood stain within the child’s underwear.
… The match of Male DNA on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder makes it clear to us that an unknown male handled these items. There is no innocent explanation for its incriminating presence at three sites on these two different items of clothing that JonBenét was wearing at the time of her murder. … To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime, I am deeply sorry. No innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion, especially when public officials have not had sufficient evidence to initiate a trial in a court of law. … We intend in the future to treat you as the victims of this crime, with the sympathy due you because of the horrific loss you suffered. …
In 2001 John and Patsy Ramsey also passed a polygraph examination given by Dr. Ed Gelb and corroborated via quality control analysis Cleve Baxter.
Patsy Ramsey died in 2006 after over a decade of battling ovarian cancer.
In his book, The Other Side of Suffering, John Ramsey believes his daughter’s murderer was someone the family came into contact with either at a Holiday gathering or at a pageant appearance shortly before her murder on Christmas Day.
JonBenet’s murder remains unsolved.
Related Posts
Related Posts:
258 Comments
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI
Looking forward to Blink’s analysis. I used to waiver in my feelings on this case but now believe the Ramseys are innocent. However one aspect has always bothered me–that the Ramseys called a large group of friends to come over immediately after calling the police. The ransome note threatened beheading if they contacted anyone. Maybe they figured once they called the police it didn’t matter, but to call quite a large group immediately just seems strange to me. I think I would have waited for the police to come and seek their guidance on what to do next.
Given John’s position and the friend base in the community- I believe it snowballed when they were calling around asking for help with any sort of contacts, or frankly, information from them or their families who had been in contact with JonBenet. I actually think this was quite prudent of them and proactive- no offense to the responding officer whom I believe eventually sued the department, but it was clear to everyone there that these people were paralyzed with fear.
I do agree it is not protocol of course, but I do not think it nefarious.
B
@Mom3,0
Everything you have mentioned is obviously well thought out and certainly plausible. I value your opinion, regardless of my own.
At some point JonBenet ate pineapple, because it was undigested would it be reasonable to assume she ate it close to the time of death?
Patsy Ramsey claimed the bowl and spoon were not theirs, with her figerprints on the bowl she was obviously mistaken or lying. Is that the same with the flashlight and hi-tec boot print? Mistaken or lying?
Was a stun gun used?
Blink, I have been with you for years now. I love the way you think. I get engrossed in your articles. I respect you. I respect that we can write our opinions and print links. My opinion is different from you this time, in this case with this dear little girl. Her parents are responsible for the abuse and death of their daughter.
Well- I can ask is that you form your opinions on my analysis when I present it. I value your contribution and thought and agreeing with me is never a requirement here.
B
How many people knew the exact amount of John’s bonus? It’s not something the Ramsey’s would divulge to just anyone, imo. My husband and I don’t share that info, even with family.
It seems the list would be pretty short. Surely, LE would have asked them to whom they gave that fact and questioned those people thoroughly.
Right, but if you left your checkbook, deposit slips in the very desk that the pad was sitting on for the note anyone looking through it would know. Snoopy houseguest or domestic worker tells a friend-
I truly believe it is possibly that simple. I agree with you that amount is paramount in this case.
B
Liam thanks- i enjoy your opinions as well and just for the record many days i am right there where you are-
i do not know if they are innocent or guilty
Liam dont even get me started on The Ramseys possible lies- there have been many and still some of these lies could be chalked up to poor remembrances or other such innocent mistakes others are just lies
The whole shoe print and knife possibly belonging to Burke BOTHERS me
For me what first got me thinking they did it or they were covering for someone that did- is their behaviors in the aftermath.
rob says:
January 31, 2013 at 9:23 am
I hear you and would only add if your child goes missing and someone took her from your home..
wouldnt you wake up your other child who was sleeping on the same floor as her and begin asking if he knew anything saw anything heard anything- wouldnt you want police to talk to him- an advocate too-
Wouldnt you wonder if the kidnapper wanted him too? Wouldnt you wonder why they did not take him?
If someone had come into your home and said they were monitoring your every move wouldnt you check every single room in the home every nook and cranny? wouldnt you keep your child with you at all times not send him to sleep in his bed or allow him to cont to sleep in his bed- if you believed someone had come into your home so easily and took your sleeping daughter from her own bed on the same floor as that child who is now sleeping alone & vulnerable …
Would you send your child off with friends or neighbors- if you werent sure who could be trusted- if you werent sure if that child could be taken at anytime just like his sister?
AJMO
Kate, I am ok with you posting that as long as it conforms with copyright law.
It did not as posted because you included a multiple page excerpt from Kolar’s book.
Fair Use dictates that an excerpt may not be longer than 2 paragraphs with an attribution link- which means, if you can’t link to that material as an excerpt, you cannot post it at all.
Up to you, but I will tell you this, kids have bellyaches . Sometimes poor housekeeping habits have someone using the same rag or “wipe” on multiple surfaces they should not be.
You cannot call something evidence without quantification, otherwise it is worth it’s origin if you get my drift.
B
text of ransom note below,
Mr. Ramsey:
Listen Carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business, but not the country it serves. At this time, we have your daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.
You will withdraw $118,000 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get home, you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we monitor you getting the money early we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence and earlier pickup of your daughter.
Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for a proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them. Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as police or F.B.I. will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in way marked or tampered with, she dies. You can try to deceive us, but be warned we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics. You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% of getting her back. You and your family are under constant scrutiny, as well as the authorities. Don’t try to grow a brain John. You are not the only fat cat around so don’t think that killing will be difficult. Don’t underestimate us, John. Use that good, Southern common sense of yours. It’s up to you now John!
Victory!
S.B.T.C.”
______________
“I advise you to be rested…. adequate size attache…”
Really?
Okay, picture this…. You are a friend of the family who is a murderous pedophile, or you are a stranger pedophile, or an acquaintance pedophile. You are in someone else’s dark home in the middle of the night. The 3 story home is dark but, being very quiet, you either know where Jonbenet is or you manage to find her on the 2nd floor and abduct her from her bed.
Instead of getting the hell out of dodge you then explore in the dark and find your way to the basement(this is a pretty big house). At the end of one side of the basement you find an obscure wine cellar room where you leave her body wrapped up in her white blanket. At this point you have assaulted and killed her. Also, during that time you managed to make your own garrotte from Patsy’s paint brush and some rope.
Then you proceed to take the time to write the above two and a half page “ransom note”, after finding Patsy’s pad and pen. (Or you wrote the note 1st and then killed Jonbenet.)
Really? (imo)
Blink, just saw your remark re: the soiling issues excerpts and the Dir. of Sexual child abuse comment. I don’t have a problem with the copyright law. The snips were from different sections of those pages. However, since it’s your blog, don’t post. That’s reasonable.
Also no need to post the following comment I made still in moderation.
Because Blink, seriously…. You think what I posted from two sources (and there is more out there) is housekeeping issues?!!?!
I don’t know if any abuse outside of her murder happened or not. Again, my point is there remains to be differing, and reasonable opinions.
Blink, just saw your remark re: the soiling issues excerpts and the Dir. of Sexual child abuse comment. I don’t have a problem with the copyright law. The snips were from different sections of those pages. However, since it’s your blog, don’t post.
Also no need to post the following comment I made still in moderation.
Because Blink, seriously…. You think what I posted from two sources (and there is more out there) is housekeeping issues?!!?!
I don’t know if any abuse outside of her murder happened or not. Again, my point is there remains to be differing, and reasonable opinions.
I have to abide by DCMA regs, I am copyrighted myself, not personal.
You said:
I don’t know if any abuse outside of her murder happened or not. Again, my point is there remains to be differing, and reasonable opinions.
I agree.
B
Poor little JonBenet.
It has been a really long time since I have read anything on the subject and I have to gone back and forth on whether I have felt parental involvement or not.
One thing I think I can comment on is that for whatever the cause- I personally and basically professionally think 27 doctor visits in 3 yrs seems like a lot. My understanding is she didn’t have any underlying health conditions so I wonder why she was being seen so often?
I wonder how deeply LE researched duplicate house keys possibilities? Obviously they had help in the home, but they have friends who have friends etc. I do feel this perp knew JB, and wonder if this was the first encounter they may have had?
I do not remember the number of keys off the top of my head, but it was outrageous-
I think Patsy’s bout with cancer made her somewhat of a hypo- and we are talking about the age of 3-6 so well visits are in there. It is also sometimes an adjustment for kids when they start school if they have not been in preschool or day care with other kids to be sickly a bit as they are being exposed to new germs/viruses. One thing also very common is ear infections for girls with long hair. Blinkette was having them monthly it seemed when she was about 3-ish until the doctor taught me that trick with the cool blowdryer- allergies, etc.
B
No. 7 @ Kate 1/31/13 10:30 p.m.
In the ransom note I notice a change in nouns….
we, us, then “my instructions”
Is this suspect or not?
Blink said: Up to you, but I will tell you this, kids have bellyaches . Sometimes poor housekeeping habits have someone using the same rag or “wipe” on multiple surfaces they should not be.
You cannot call something evidence without quantification, otherwise it is worth it’s origin if you get my drift.
B
____
Blink is referring to what she couldn’t post above due to my not being in compliance with copyright law. Instead of copying, I’ll paraphrase what new evidence I read in Mr. Kolar’s book, Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped Jonbenet?:
During the execution of their search warrant, CSI found fecal matter smeared on a box of candy in Jonbenet’s bedroom. Also they found fecal matter in a pair of pj bottoms on the floor (police could not get confirmation whether Jonbenet or Burke had worn them). Known previously, housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh reported to police finding fecal material in JonBenet’s bedsheets.
and this:
Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, stated had found fecal staining in all of JBR’s panties on the 3rd day of the investigation; in 2006 she stated: “There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay,” explains Smith….While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions.”
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682469/Evidence%20of%20Prior%20Sexual%20Abuse
ETA: The fact that JonBenet had bedWETting problems has been out in the public for years.
_____________________________________________________
I don’t know if any abuse outside of her murder happened or not. Again, my point is there remains to be differing, and reasonable opinions.
_______
I agree.
B
_______
Ahhh, a meeting of the minds Blink!
Blink wrote: Lou Smitt was hired to do the same as I recall- very different outcome- I am glad to hear you are open.
Presenting your conclusions for a a job you are tasked with by your office and then publishing a book for profit is not doing much for his credibility. However, I will agree to read it before I publish on this case.
B
____________
First of all, Lou Smitt (and many other “intruder did it” theorists) believed this intruder came in through a window in one of the rooms in the basement. I so remember him doing the infamous demo of this on TV!
Now, check out the video in the below article which is POLICE FOOTAGE taken hrs. after her body was discovered, specifically around the 3:36 mark….. All these years, and I had never seen this video made public until last year.
(also, article gives some background on Kolar and his investigation, if you’re interested)
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/18/new-clues-in-jonbenet-ramsey-murder.html
Jonbenet’s Cause of Death: asphixia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.
http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet01.gif
According to a Dr. Rorke and other pathologists (see below), Jonbenet remained alive for “an hour or so” after the head blow. I interpret this as the head blow came 1st and then she was asphixiated,
causing her death. This would add Another Hour Or So the intruder remained in the home (if you think an intruder assaulted and killed Jonbenet.)!
“The presence of cerebral edema, swelling of the brain, suggested that JonBenét had survived for some period of time after receiving the blow to her head. Blood from the injury slowly began to fill the cavity of the skull and began to build up pressure on her brain. As pressure increased, swelling was causing the medulla of the brain to push forward through the foramen magnum, the narrow opening at the base of the skull.
Dr. Rorke [a neuropatholgist with the Philadelphia Children's Hospital] estimated that it would have taken an hour or so for the cerebral edema to develop.”
Kolar, Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped Jonbenet?, Page 64.
Kate
Was this fecal matter in the bed- and in the candy box tested? Who did it belong to and was it fresh? was it visable to the naked eye? when was the last time the maid cleaned?
Also IIRC wasnt there poo found in the toilet? was this downstairs or in Jon Benets bathroom? Was this ever determined to come from a member of the house?
The pj pants with fecal matter- strange- why would Burkes pjs be in Jon Benets room? and did he also have toileting issues?
if i remember correctly Jon Benet needed help to make sure she wiped correctly-
IIRC someone had to help her wipe at the neighbors xmas party? am I remembering this correctly?
My point is Jon Benet could have like some youngster had trouble wiping- if she did, this could also explain the various trips to the Doc and her infections etc-
If a girl wipes the wrong way or not well enough then the fecal matter can move forward causing infections and all sorts of problems-
It is my understanding that Jon Benet’s undies all had staining “smears”…Am i correct?
Not huge amounts of matter. but more so as if she didnt wipe correctly…Am I correct in this assumption/remembrance?
—
i swear this case gets weirder and weirder.
AJMO
peace
Mom3.0 says:
February 1, 2013 at 7:48 pm
Kate
Was this fecal matter in the bed- and in the candy box tested? Who did it belong to and was it fresh? was it visable to the naked eye? when was the last time the maid cleaned?
Also IIRC wasnt there poo found in the toilet? was this downstairs or in Jon Benets bathroom? Was this ever determined to come from a member of the house?
The pj pants with fecal matter- strange- why would Burkes pjs be in Jon Benets room? and did he also have toileting issues?
if i remember correctly Jon Benet needed help to make sure she wiped correctly-
IIRC someone had to help her wipe at the neighbors xmas party? am I remembering this correctly?
My point is Jon Benet could have like some youngster had trouble wiping- if she did, this could also explain the various trips to the Doc and her infections etc-
If a girl wipes the wrong way or not well enough then the fecal matter can move forward causing infections and all sorts of problems-
It is my understanding that Jon Benet’s undies all had staining “smears”…Am i correct?
Not huge amounts of matter. but more so as if she didnt wipe correctly…Am I correct in this assumption/remembrance?
—
i swear this case gets weirder and weirder.
AJMO
peace
___________________________________________________
Mom 3.0
I do not know if the fecal matter in/on the candy box was tested or not. Since Kolar didn’t address this, I doubt it. Obviously, the fecal matter in the pj bottoms on her bedroom floor wasn’t tested, based on Kolar saying investigators at the time couldn’t get confirmation from the parents as to who wore them. (Remember, the Ramsey’s weren’t interrogated by the police for a while after the murder. There were issues such as they wanted the questions, in writing, in advance of an interview by police, etc. Not SOP, for sure.)
My understanding is there were feces in her bathroom toilet, and in her underwear on her bathroom floor.
Yes, Holly Smith (head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team) is quoted as saying fecal stains were in all of Jonbenet’s panties.
The only thing I have read about Burke’s toileting, is Kolar (in his book) referred to a 1997 police interview where a former housekeeper/nanny (Geraldine Vodicka) stated Burke smeared feces on the walls of a bathroom during the time period Patsy had cancer.
Mr. Kolar had asked his boss (then DA Mary Lacy – the one that publicly exonerated the Ramseys) for Burke’s medical and psychiatric records and her response stunned him:
“She told me that she was unwilling to pursue that lead because
she ‘didn’t want to harm her relationship with the Ramsey family.’”
Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped Jonbenet?, James Kolar, page 281.
IIRC, I have read that Jonbenet did ask for assistance in wiping. (I’ve wondered about touch DNA in regards to this issue.)
So the entire fecal matter is speculative and none of it was tested and that is supposed to evidence of sexual abuse? You see how thin that is, exactly?
The child that has problems wiping had fecal matter in her underwear. Imagine.
B
Blink said: So the entire fecal matter is speculative and none of it was tested and that is supposed to evidence of sexual abuse? You see how thin that is, exactly?
The child that has problems wiping had fecal matter in her underwear. Imagine.
_________________
I will post again….
Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, stated had found fecal staining in all of JBR’s panties on the 3rd day of the investigation; in 2006 she stated: “There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay,” explains Smith….WHILE SMITH POINTS OUT THERE COULD BE INNOCENT EXPLANATIONS, THIS WAS THE KIND OF INFORMATION THAT RAISED QUESTIONS.”
(my caps)
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682469/Evidence%20of%20Prior%20Sexual%20Abuse
Therefore, she was NOT stating this behavior was definitive evidence of sexual abuse, just that IT RAISED QUESTIONS. I would imagine especially so, given Jonbenet’s vaginal injuries evidenced at autopsy.
Fecal matter located in different areas is not speculative. Exactly whose fecal matter, how much, and why and how it got there, to my knowledge, is.
Incorrect, it is only fecal matter if it is tested to a conclusion that it is fecal matter.
This what I am referring to when we talk about speculative v fact. Therefore it is “possible fecal matter”. Moreover, had it been, the next test would be human or animal.
I do agree it is possible that it was, and frankly the thought of a child putting candy in their mouth like that as a Mother whose kids have purell on caribiners in their backpacks it freaks me out.
I am going to let you guys hash this out further if you choose, but I am not going to get into my analysis or findings in piecemeal fashion. Not fair to the case and not fair to y’all.
I will ask that we adapt the fact v speculation approach. Discussion of speculation as long as it is labeled as such and in context, I am ok. That said, Kate you are relying heavily on a self-published book. I think the contrasts between his work and Dr. Whitson’s need full scrutiny if one is relying on such research items for an opinion, imo.
B
Found these:
“Long after JonBenet should have been potty trained, certainly as late as the fall of 1994, her toilet behavior was odd. By 1995, in addition to more frequent soiling of her bed with faeces and urine, JonBenet often did not want to use toilet tissue on herself. She would call out, “wipe, wipe,” for assistance from adults.”
http://www.tommillerlaw.com/Chapter-1-JonBenet-Ramsey-Prostitution-of-Justice-by-Thomas-C-Doc-Miller.shtml
“Though toilet-trained for years, JonBenét Ramsey often soiled her underwear and bedclothes; unusual in an intelligent child of six, she was still in the habit of calling out to adults to wipe her when she was on the toilet. As Schiller writes, “Anyone within shouting distance would do. Some adults, thinking she was old enough to do this herself, stopped answering her calls, and it resulted in soiled underpants.”
http://www.usfca.edu/jco/mysteryofjonbenetramsey/
(FYI, Lawrence Schiller wrote Perfect Murder, Perfect Town. Schiller spent one and a half years, with at least one assistant, compiling newspaper reports and “sound bites” and recording 571 interviews resulting in 25,000 pages of transcripts.)
Mom3.0 says:
January 31, 2013 at 8:08 pm
I hear you and would only add if your child goes missing and someone took her from your home..
wouldnt you wake up your other child who was sleeping on the same floor as her and begin asking if he knew anything saw anything heard anything- wouldnt you want police to talk to him- an advocate too-
Wouldnt you wonder if the kidnapper wanted him too? Wouldnt you wonder why they did not take him?
If someone had come into your home and said they were monitoring your every move wouldnt you check every single room in the home every nook and cranny? wouldnt you keep your child with you at all times not send him to sleep in his bed or allow him to cont to sleep in his bed- if you believed someone had come into your home so easily and took your sleeping daughter from her own bed on the same floor as that child who is now sleeping alone & vulnerable …
Would you send your child off with friends or neighbors- if you werent sure who could be trusted- if you werent sure if that child could be taken at anytime just like his sister?
————————————–
Mom3.0,
There are so many details about this case that are troublesome to me and what you’ve written above has always been one of them. I simply cannot reconcile their actions here in my own mind.
Does anyone else find it odd that her grave marker has her date of death as Christmas Day? Did the Medical Examiner make that determination at autopsy?
btw, everyone’s contributions to this discussion are absolutely amazing!
Children (or adults) who engage in anal sex may loose control of their anal muscles. The muscles may weaken over time from abuse of a penetrating object being forced into the anal cavity. Fecal matter may leak out and cause staining in the underwear. A continuous drip from the anus would make wiping an impossibility as the dripping/leaking never really stops. Some need surgery to tighten the anus in order to stop the leakage. Smearing feces on a wall or wherever (done by Burke) is a sign of sexual abuse also. For me, this is a blaring red flag waving in front of my eyes that there was some real sexual abuse going on in that house with both children and because they were “The Ramseys”, the signs and symptoms were swept under the rug by professionals. I see this issue as being a possible motive for murder. If JBR was having these obvious problems and it was escalating, then how would she be able to participate in pageants? PR was so wrapped up in them and now her daughter couldn’t control her functions anymore?
I believe there is a doctor or two who administered to both children back then who are deeply remorseful that they never reported their suspicions. To come out with their suspicions now would put them in a bad light and ruin their reputations. These doctors are probably enjoying their retirements now.
I cannot put stock in what the police reports say, as I believe there was mishandling of the case because of the family involved. I have always believed that sexual abuse was involved as a motive in her death, and believe that because of the physical problems that were becoming too obvious, that she had to be killed to cover up. JMO – but an educated opinion.
I agree as to the potential physical symptoms you mentioned to abuse victims. I also agree this WAS a sexually motivated crime. Ditto on the mishandling.
Where we are going to disagree is in the profile of this offender- this is a sexual sadist.
B
Blink said:
Incorrect, it is only fecal matter if it is tested to a conclusion that it is fecal matter.
OK, but you are asserting the CSI techs at the crime scene don’t know what poop is?!
I am asserting without reservation that no CSI tech is going call something definitively fecal matter if it has not been tested, yes. It would read “possible”, “consistent with”, based on appearance, smell, and my education and training the substance was “similar or consistent” with.
That is report protocol for submission to the lab as to chain of custody, there is no disputing the standards for collection, chain of custody and delivery submissions. I am not being a hard ass, but one has to categorize the facts in one column, and the possibilities in the other before any weight is ever given to them. I am trying to get you to a place where you can admit critical thinking defies a great deal of the hearsay and meritless observations folks define for themselves as fact when rendering an opinion on the brutal murder and sexual assault of a child.
I am not certified to collect speciments myself, but I am trained to analyze their results and make recommendations based on the crime scene, etc. No testing was preformed in field nor were any attempts to collect the material warranted or requested. Why is that do you suppose?
Blink said: I will ask that we adapt the fact v speculation approach. Discussion of speculation as long as it is labeled as such and in context, I am ok. That said, Kate you are relying heavily on a self-published book. I think the contrasts between his work and Dr. Whitson’s need full scrutiny if one is relying on such research items for an opinion, imo.
First of all, how do you apply the fact vs. speculation rule when looking at behavioral aspects, family dynamics, possible deception during statements, etc., etc. of this crime or any other? All the evidence in this case has resulted in different interpretations by different experts (yes, even physical evidence such as the DNA artifacts found on Jonbenet, which scientists can not even determine what their biological source was, i.e. salivia, semen, blood).
Secondly, we started this discussion, for example, with you stating the JonBenet was not sexually abused prior to her murder. Now we see that different experts can not agree on this. Therefore, it is up to us, as laypeople, to read, research and determine what interpretation(s) we find credible, if any. I was concerned that you only cited what Jonbenet’s pediatrician said.
Thirdly, what makes a self-published book less credible?
“Kolar had access to 60,000 pages of evidence, including interviews, forensic reports, grand-jury records, crime-scene photos and video.
Kolar was hired by Boulder D.A. Mary Keenan Lacy in the spring of 2004 and stepped into the lead investigator role a year later.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/18/new-clues-in-jonbenet-ramsey-murder.html
Finally, I have read Whitson’s book and appreciate his interpretation of this crime and and his knowledge regarding psychopathy in general. (Even though, IIRC he was the on call detective that morning at the Ramsey house and has acknowledged his mistakes in not asking the Ramsey friends to leave and that he contaminated the notepad the ransom note was written from, because he didn’t use gloves to handle evidence.)
I do take into account Whitson had not reviewed 60,000 pages of evidence collected in this case, when putting weight on interpretations. Nevertheless, I respect his opinions and have taken them into consideration.
I don’t need to “hash anything out”, I was simply providing some balance to the statement you made and it just flowed from there.
Me in Bold Kate.
I said there was no evidence JBR was sexually assaulted prior to her murder. There is not. I stand by that assertion. It does not mean she never was, it means there is no evidence to say that.
I am referring to fact v supposition on physical evidence and it’s real v potential interpretations.
Your point is well taken about consideration of experts in their fields- that is a valid debate and one I will impart in my coverage-
Science (indirect) will solve this case ultimately, there is no doubt in my mind.
B
Blink I will do my best to not make you give us your analysis in pieces.
Thanks for your response Kate and i look forward to more of your posts
I am learning alot that i wasnt aware of previously.
I agree with Blink in this instance Kate,- I have seen the pics of Jon Benets room and from that vantage point I can not see poop-
\
So I think that this was on her sheets and in her underwear because of her toileting issues (not wiping properly)
I do not remember the Ramseys ever being asked about poop smears- so I would think that it was determined this was also easily explainable by a child everyday accident-
I mean I cant say if it was traces or what you know?
I remember an episode of Raising Hope where they borrowed a high powered black light used in crime scenes- and to everyones dismay when they turned on the light the entire house was saturated with all sorts of yuckiness
My point is with a six year old who had wiping issues and IIRC like most children didnt wash hands diligently..with a mom who waited for the maid etc-I am sure little Jon Benet touched everything when not entirely clean..
The fact that little Jon Benet was not frightened or embarrassed to ask almost anyone for help with toileting issues IMO goes to show that she was not being abused sexually- nor was she being shamed in the home for her lack of practical life toileting skills.
Schillers comment that it was unusual for a child of six that may be his experience- but as a one time primary educator I can assure you many children regardless of age or intelligence sometimes have these issues- Sometimes it was so often to the point where some children kept an extra set or two of clothes at school for just such times-
The fact that the “evidence” was not thrown away by the Ramseys (the stained undies) goes to show it was no big deal- they must have thought it was a phase, and no sense in buying new undies over and over until Jon Benet could wipe better…
Her trips to the doctor would also tend to show that Patsy was not trying to hide anything either-
I mean if you were an abuser- or if you were covering for abuses of others-would you take your child to the doctor over and over? or would you want to keep any issue or problem on the down low?
AJMO
After thinking about it, I realized I forgot I wanted to make a quick point on an issue that has nothing to do with the Ramsey case, but I would feel remiss at having a teaching/learning site if I did not.
I believe strongly in teaching children that their privates are just that- without exception. In our home, these sort of instances ( and there are many with small children) were addressed ONLY by Dad and I.
Both my children were potty trained prior to any day school or pre-school so I admit in the event kids have an alternate care giver that needs to be factored in.
Kind of a funny story in there about a family member wanting to speak to one of our children “privately” and the response was ” My Mother would never allow that and only she gets to speak to me about privates.”
The vague version will have to do as I don’t want to dilute my message on this.
They are called private because they are private. IF, and I say IF, ANY child would be indisposed and yelling from the loo for any person to assist them if I am an invited guest to your home expect me to pull you aside and tell you why that is completely inappropriate when imprinting children for both modesty and more importantly- personal protection.
Mr. Blink called me home on 2 separate occasions, or while we were home together, because one of the kids was seriously ill and required a script suppository. He said under no circumstances am I comfortable with that.
Parents please teach your children that they are in charge of their bodies, and exactly who is there to care for them when necessary to their level of comfort. These are necessary boundaries for them.
I am not soapboxing here even if it sounds like I am, I learned these parenting “musts” like everyone else. It’s just that as I changed professions and yes, occupational hazard, I realized how greatly this set of rules can help a kid in a bad situation.
B
Blink wrote: I am trying to get you to a place where you can admit critical thinking defies a great deal of the hearsay and meritless observations folks define for themselves as fact when rendering an opinion on the brutal murder and sexual assault of a child.
What? In all of my posts, I have sourced my information. I have repeatedly stated that to this day experts have different interpretations of the evidence (ad nauseum). I most definately know the difference between, for ex., Hearsay and physical evidence. I use my critical thinking skills to determine how much weight to put on the evidence (and the different interpretations) available to us in the general public. Also, I look at who brings us this information. I believe your readers are intelligent and do the same.
The info I have posted from James Kolar’s book is evidence he revealed in his book, NOT his own interpretations.
What have I posted here that makes you think I need to pump up my critical thinking skills?
Were the DNA results I posted earlier inaccurate?
Lou Smit’s basement window intruder theory?
The Cause of death from the Coroner’s report?
The observation of the team leader of Boulder’s Sexual Abuse Team? The pediatric neuropathologist from Philadelphia Children’s Hospital?
The police video of the Ramsey basement and the “intruder” window?
ETA: it must be the CSI poop LOL
I said:
Blink wrote: I am trying to get you to a place where you can admit critical thinking defies a great deal of the hearsay and meritless observations folks define for themselves as fact when rendering an opinion on the brutal murder and sexual assault of a child.
How did you make this about you? It was not a criticism.
B
Agreed with 3.0 on childrens’ differing development.
In my experience children with urinary incontinence
due to physical immaturity & slower developmental
skills in “poop” cleanliness independently, also have
other neurological systems slower to develop (meaning frontal
lobes) which could both lend a child to natural
vivacious performance skills, but also more vulnerable
to predators ( less of a sense of caution).
I agree the $ amount could be picked up from
the desk, but the author sounds as if he knows
and has animus to John, albeit distantly.
The “beheading” is interesting. Familiar to us now
since the press of the Gulf Wars, but in whose vocab
was that in the day of the note?
Hi Mom 3.0
As a matter of fact, my personal opinion regarding Jonbenet’s pooping situation has always been the same as yours(regarding the staining of her panties). IIRC, I read a long time ago on a pediatric website that it is normal for some six year olds to have issues in this area.
You said: I mean if you were an abuser- or if you were covering for abuses of others-would you take your child to the doctor over and over? or would you want to keep any issue or problem on the down low?
You make a good point, if Patsy was the abuser. (That is IF Jonbenet was abused prior to that night). In other words, if Patsy was not the abuser and did not know Jonbenet was being abused, Patsy wouldn’t know to keep that on the down low.
Personally, I haven’t and still don’t have a firm opinion on whether Jonbenet was sexually abused prior to her murder, I waver back and forth… There is always a possibility additional evidence is available but not revealed to the public. I would love to see the evidence the grand jury evaluated since they voted to indict the Ramseys for child abuse leading to her death.
Have a great night and I look forward to discussing more with you when Blink publishes her analysis!
Blink Just wanted to clarify in a school setting no one but the nurse is authorized to attend to the childs soiling issues- the extra clothes should be kept in that office and the nurse isthe one to send the note home or call home
Its all to safeguard the children and the teachers-
I cant speak to day care settings with infants and toddlers – I dont know how this issue is handled …
But yes thanks for the caution it is important
SOTT says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
February 2, 2013 at 1:26 pm
Blink,
Did I say something wrong?
Nope, is up, was behind.
B
In a nutshell, aren’t we disputing the interpretation of the evidence, not the evidence itself?
In some aspects, yes. In others some are referring to data, rumors, or otherwise described and is not evidence at all. No shortage of interpretations in this case.
Big shortage on an arrest.
B
Rose – thanks for sharing that info-
and youre right I cant this second, recall any movie that would discuss beheading unless it was a vampire movie
beheaded weird choice of words
I do not read the genre that deals with fictional portrayals of kidnapping..so i cant say that this wasnt somewhere in a book-
i do know that nick of time was on television and they begin the phone call with listen carefully..
To me the note is obviously fake-
I mean she was killed right?
But what i mean is it reads fake-
like it was a game to them they knew she was dead and gone they knew where she was so why the stupid note?
obviously the intent was never to get her out of the house otherwise just leave- dont go down to the basement and all the rest you know?
The note is strange and I cant think why anyone whether a Ramsey or not would write that note
Why not address the note to both Ramseys why exclude Patsy?
even if it was Patsy why would she leave herself off of the note since the note was obviously placed in an area SHE would come across first?
Its almost as if this was all done to hurt Patsy from start to finish- Her more so than anyoneelse-
They killed her pride and joy – her mini me…and then afterwards they excluded her but not before inviting her in via the placement of the note.
Did the authorities look into people who had it out for Patsy- someone that was mad at her more so than John… someone in the beauty pageant circuit- someone that was jealous of her and JonBenet
I cant figure it out.
Kate, hey dont stop sharing now- I am learning alot- Kolar I read some stuff and it seems IMO he is correct about the basement window
There were cobwebs and the dust is still there I dont think anyone came in that way-
In fact if you watch the crime scene tape you can see where the window was broken, most likely from the INSIDE out- the glass and the web in the top corner is shown to be pushed out toward the outside not kicked in as if to gain entrance.
To me as a parent it looks like it was a ball that did it like the size of a soccer ball…
AJMO
John Ramsey broke it himself once a few months earlier when he forgot his keys.
B
The fact that JBR had a toilet problem is new to me. This child was not the first child of the Ramsey’s. The mother should have known how to fix that problem unless JBR was mentally challenged.
My experience with little girls vs little boys is that the girls do not like to be soiled whereas boys sometimes don’t care. Both of my girls learned to announce their potty needs and do something about it months earlier than the boys.
Parents that pay attention do not let others tend to those needs of their children. I am saying parents meaning both mom and dad. After the age of two, my girls were bathed only by mom or grandmother.
The Ramsey’s were social people who IMO did not think about the risks their choices posed to their children.
Sue
Thanks for weighing in -
Your info is correct that sometimes does occur-
but in JonBenets case the autopsy did not show any signs of this with Jon Benet- TMK
as for Burke and his wall incident-
Children who are angry or feel abandoned or who are faced with major changes sometimes also exhibit these behaviors -
Patsy was very sick with cancer at this time it is not hard to imagine that Burke was sad mad frustrated and feeling abandoned at this particular time-
This crime may have been an accident brought about by stress-lack of sleep and perhaps these and other factors IDK
Still I cant imagine a person setting out to murder a child over any or all of these factors.
Your thoughts could be right on every account Sue- IDK i am just offering up other explanations that dont necessarily point toward sexual abuse.
—
—
Mom3.0 raises her hand
to remind Blink:
John Ramsey SAID he MAY have broken that window himself months earlier-
He couldnt remember when or how and his remembrance on the actual breaking and the maneuvering into the window were off as well and they changed..
He was unsure Dear Blink so we cant be sure, can we?
dont forget too the Maid never corroborated Patsy’s clean -up story regarding this window either..
My point being
No one can say definitely when the window was broken or by whom
and that crime scene video IMO does seem to show the window shards pointing in an outward trajectory as if someone from inside the house broke it not someone outside breaking it to get in
AJMO
There was a shard found under the suitcase, to your point, I agree it would be fair to only conclude that the suitcase had to have been placed there after the window had been broken, whether that occurred previously or as a point of entry. Fair observation, thanks Mom 3.0
B
I wondered about the nexus of garrote knowledge (seemed to be in use by French & Spanish–maybe N African ), beheading, & kidnap for ransom ideation — and these seem to come together in the 90s culturally in the Phillipines. So, I was ready to look at her hairdressors, makeup artists, photographers, Presbyterian school, housekeepers, sitters.
But, then I read the below, & it seems the knots (garrotte, wrist ligatures) were garden variety SM knowledge. And anyone who’d do SM to a 6 yo is capable of anything imo. These ideations fit in with Blink’s mention of sexual sadism then. And imo the 2.5 pg note part of an expansive psychotic high from the prospective or retrospective deed.
http://www.webdesignsbycarson.com/jonbenetramsey.html
(snip )
“** The knots on the ligatures on JBR’s wrists and on the wooden stick “anchoring” the garrote are reverse French bowline knots. They’re used in S & M Bondage rituals.
http://www.ecstagony.com/eng/info/ar…knotsfrbow.htm
If you note the bottom drawing, all of the knots on JBR are similar to the cuff knot on this bondage site; it’s simply a matter that some on JBR are double and some are not – it is easier to see if you can imagine the photos upside down. The knots on the Garrote and wrist ligatures are reverse French bowline single and double bondage knots. ”
—–
access graphics had a Phillippine office. Amsterdam could stand out too.
…. offices in the Philippines, Amsterdam, Holland and Denver
—-
crackpot extraordinnaire???
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682462/Disgruntled%20Lockheed%20Martin%20Worker
Who’s gonna SM snuff a 6 year old?
Pity there weren’t all the relevant
subterranean Internet sites
for LE to toss back then.
That is a VERY true statement. The whole web thing was new and underground and NOBODY in LE had a strong understanding of profiling this offender, imo.
No web access due to the material-
In a way, I don’t blame LE resistance to look outside popular theory, because at the end of this case, this investigation was botched by them. It happens, but never like this, imo.
B
Blink says: “In a way, I don’t blame the LE resistance to look outside popular theory, because at the end of this case, this investigation was botched by them. It happens, but never like this, imo.”
If one believes that PR murdered her daughter, I believe that the Ramsey attorneys took advantage of the fact that LE compromised the crime scene and took no action to protect the house as a crime scene, and spread mis-information out to the public to take the spot light off PR. She was in stage IV ovarian cancer and was going to die anyway. The DA went along with this and did not indict. JMO
I don’t believe Patsy killed her daughter and she was actually in remission for eight years.
Sue- I just ask that you trust me enough to read my work on the case when I publish it, and hear me out.
This offender is a ritualistic sexual sadist pedophile. I would only potentially bend on the pedophile aspect with more suspect or unknown information. This type will not always care about the sexual proclivity issue with the other aspects of this deviant, this could have been an early escalation.
B
What Singular says about ‘the murder cannot be solved because the evidence does not fit the case’ seems so true of several high profile missing or murdered children cases. His *opinions* do not leave the Ramsey’s entirely off the hook, fwiw. I tend to lean to his assessment of the case. Otherwise he might be an interesting read for some.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/singular/connection_2.html
erose, I respectfully snipped your post, it was astute as usual, I would like to let readers “read” that where it is without comment from me for now. I am planning my published view on this case by the end of this month- I hope. You guys are seriously so strong on this stuff, I swear.
B
“We don’t like to admit, as a society, how troubling the sexualization and exploitation of children is, so we’ve tried to lay this entire case off on JonBenet’s mother. It is an example of extreme denial.” – Stephen Singular
Regardless of one’s position on “who”- one must agree with this. See any new regulations or proposed bills or statutes on this very obviously under-analyzed issue?
One has only to look at Austin Sigg/Ridgeway and YES Adam Lanza/Sandy Hook massacre to see we are under-equipped as a society IN GENERAL to deal with the fringe assault on kids we should have seen coming.
I say this as this is the second year in a row I had tears streaming down my face at the start of a superbowl. Last year was freak Josh Powell blowing up his babies and this year it was watching the Sandy Hook children’s chorus in tribute.
Can anyone wake the eff up? Get past your own damn snout people- this is NOT about guns, we have a CRISIS of serious mental health and deviants that is NOT being addressed by anyone as a social threat.
Maddening. Sorry for the public rant on the response to your post erose, but I know if you have additional or contrasting thoughts you will feel free to reply in that regard and I welcome it of course.
B
Q: Do you think this case will ever be solved?
Not until the Boulder police change their attitude and widen their investigation. They’ve been given numerous leads that they’ve ignored, while spending $2 million of the public’s money. It’s time to stop assuming things and do the work they’re paid to do.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/singular/case_5.html
This case and Kyron’s case seem similar in regards to closely held secrets by adults that prevent solving it. Additionally, Kyron’s case mimics LE seemingly one track investigation, or does that just come from the parent aka news source. What I think further complicates Kyron’s case is there may be two parents, father and stepmother with secrets to hide, who both seem to have no motivation in solving the case. Finding Kyron, yes. Solving the case, no. When there is no other motivation, certainly not LE, and a rightfully but perhaps misplaced angry mother, couple with a school in CYA mode for almost three years, then my guess is, sadly, we will be talking about Kyron on his 21st birthday, like JonBenet, with no real clue as to where he is. Unless something changes.
Agreed, when I mentioned the similarites what seems like forever ago- it was with that exact fear.
B
Northern District of Georgia’s New Chief Judge Reflects on Her Career
One case that made Carnes’ name one that now is nationally recognized was her order in an Atlanta defamation case naming as defendants the parents of 6-year-old slain beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey.
Through the prism of that defamation suit, Carnes examined the 1996 murder case and became the first official associated with the justice system to determine that there was “virtually no evidence” to support theories, including those held by the Boulder, Colo., Police Department, that the little girl’s parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, had killed her.
In her 93-page order, which dismissed the case against the Ramseys brought by a Boulder man who claimed they had told police he was a possible suspect, Carnes found “abundant evidence” to support assertions that an intruder entered into their home at some point during the night of Dec. 25, 1996, and killed their daughter.
Carnes’ opinion helped to turn the tide of public opinion that had condemned the Ramseys and breathed life into a fresh reconsideration of the case by Boulder authorities.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202429072171&hbxlogin=1&slreturn=20130104001821
I have read all 93 pages. Let me say she S L A M M E D Robert Christian Wolf.
This is an example of how a civil case released more information for a cold case than one will ever get waiting for it to be solved, imo, and it was NOT brought by the Ramsey’s- although they did recoup their costs to defend it.
Can you imagine this in juxtaposition of the Kyron Horman case- without a recovery no less?
B
Blink, I know you did and I should have stated that, I apologize, though I know you weren’t fishing for one. I did not quite comprehend all that you meant at the time. I remember responding then on the one track investigation, but have come to realize it is so much more humanly complex. I am ever evolving. Thanks for helping me expand.
Agreed, when I mentioned the similarites what seems like forever ago- it was with that exact fear.
B
I can only add this and admit I have not studied it yet, so withholding opinion out of concern for wrongly accused. So sad we are reactive and not proactive. We are piece mealing and winging it.
Charlie and Braden Powell inspire Wash. legislation
http://fox13now.com/2013/02/01/charlie-and-braden-powell-inspire-wash-state-legislation/
Not trying to blog hog, here. No need to post. Am reeling off of this today. The freakin’ library! And how many balls were dropped?
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Repeat-sex-offender-accused-of-Enumclaw-library-attack-could-get-25-years-189457591.html
Sott says: “wouldnt you wake up your other child who was sleeping on the same floor as her and begin asking if he knew anything?”
—
Hell no! If I found one of my children dead as the Ramsey’s did, and knew my other child was blissfully sleeping unaware in his room, I would not rush to wake him. I would pray that he would sleep on and on knowing the minute he woke, his world would be forever altered.
@erose
That is all I could ever ask for and in retrospect next to recovering this wee man, my secondary goal.
I did Not predict Hunter elected not to indict and I am shocked those closest to the case never let that slip.
@ erose
Unreal. That freak is 25.
Lots of interesting thoughts on here. Rose mentioned the language of the note as related the Middle East, etc. This stands out to me too but I don’t know what to make of it. One thing about the note is that it bears the mark of someone who can use fancy vocab words in the correct context. Some people have implicated Patsy Ramsey as the note writer because it repeated language found in her Christmas card-I believe it was the word “hence”. Maybe the perp was indirectly mocking the card itself? I for one believe LE most likely interviewed the person responsible for JonBenet’s murder early on, but for whatever reason the person did not raise suspicion. It was probably someone in their extended circle, who received a Christmas card from them, and who knew the house. I’m sure if LE looked hard enough they could find someone who knew the Ramseys who would fit the profile Blink mentioned. I don’t know a lot about criminal profiling but I did see a case on some investigative show where a profiler examined the crime then gave a super detailed account of the perp all the way down to the make, model and color of the car the perp most likely drove, and the profiler was correct. I just can’t believe in all this time the perp has not been caught. As Blink mentioned, the case needs to be looked at in a totally different way, starting from scratch.
Garden Variety Dungeons and Dragons.
This offender knew this family- not sure of the reciprocal.
B
If you google WOLF V RAMSEY on leagle.com March 31, 2003 (link won’t post) you will see how Wolf himself is a journalist major, with no alibi on that night. There is so much there that points to an intruder, and some things that point to Wolf.
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=20031576253FSupp2d1323_11466.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006
B
Reread my comment, to correct, meant to say Wolf had a masters in journalism.
Blink said “Garden Variety D and D”. Yes, that does make sense, with the kind of medieval language going on. Now I’m thinking in a totally different way. Blink, do you think there is a connection with the circle around Helgoth? Some of those people might fit the profile you are referring to. I know Helgoth was ruled out via DNA, but what about others in his circle?
I will get to that Mystery, I promise.
B
IMO, Helgoth seems like a set up. There was a sbtc baseball cap, stun gun, hi-tech shoes all found where he supposedly killed himself. Why leave all that stuff and no confession? Who was the friend that said he confessed? Wolf had a sbtc sweatshirt, and he knew “Santa” McReynolds. McReynolds wrote the card that said JonBenet would be getting a present after Christmas. McReynolds daughter has been abducted 22 years to the day that JonBenet was murdered. Assuming all these men have been ruled out by DNA, but I don’t assume their hands a clean. I expect that someone (else) dressed as santa was in the house that night. If caught, they would be hard to describe; red and white suit, long white beard, twinkling eyes, rosy cheeks and a jelly belly, IMO pagan blasphemy.