Ramsey’s Indicted In JonBenet’s Murder In 1999- DA Alex Hunter Refused To Prosecute
According to a new report exclusive by the Daily Camera- Both John and Patsy Ramsey were indicted by a grand jury in 1999 for child abuse leading to her death- but prosecutor Alex Hunter refused to sign the indictment because he did not feel there was sufficient evidence to secure a prosecution against either parent.
The report lays to the rest years of lingering rumors that although the grand jury which was suspended more than once while hearing the Ramsey case was never polled.
In July 2008 then Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy, publicly exonerated the Ramsey’s in an open letter after Touch DNA testing proved the suspect in Jon Benet’s assault and murder was an unrelated male whose profile matched DNA in a blood stain within the child’s underwear.
… The match of Male DNA on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder makes it clear to us that an unknown male handled these items. There is no innocent explanation for its incriminating presence at three sites on these two different items of clothing that JonBenét was wearing at the time of her murder. … To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime, I am deeply sorry. No innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion, especially when public officials have not had sufficient evidence to initiate a trial in a court of law. … We intend in the future to treat you as the victims of this crime, with the sympathy due you because of the horrific loss you suffered. …
In 2001 John and Patsy Ramsey also passed a polygraph examination given by Dr. Ed Gelb and corroborated via quality control analysis Cleve Baxter.
Patsy Ramsey died in 2006 after over a decade of battling ovarian cancer.
In his book, The Other Side of Suffering, John Ramsey believes his daughter’s murderer was someone the family came into contact with either at a Holiday gathering or at a pageant appearance shortly before her murder on Christmas Day.
JonBenet’s murder remains unsolved.
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How does garden variety D&D (which I know zero about) fit with the garrotte
tying special french knot capability (presumed SM-experienced)?
Compliments to those so up on the evidence & its interpretation.
@Rose
I was referring to the beheading reference as a possibility.
Blink i didn’t follow this case. Only one question about the footage of the police report: could the suitcase have been a help for some potentially intruder to get out of the house? Then if so it could tell a lot about the intruder. ( intruder(s) size and age ) did the brother of Jonbenet have some weird friends?
I paid attention at the time and tried often to find a way to contact the police focused on the case. Way back then there was reference to a certain man that John Ramsey worked with at his then place of work, who was quite annoyed at the amount of salary John Ramsey was getting and it was around the time of company bonuses. I don’t remember the details now as it is so much later in time, but I wish John Ramsey would get a list of all the people he worked with and have them investigated. He could point out the men most likely to be the one who was really upset.
This is the first time I have seen this site. I am not one to become obsessive about crime, but I have followed several HLN shows for 10 years. And I did follow this case from the beginning when it was covered on CNN. I wish CNN would have a way of searching transcripts of shows with boolean search terms, so they could help with crime resolution. CNN mentioned the fellow at work who was so mad he made some comments I can not remember verbatim. But it was something about being mad about the huge bonus John Ramsey got. Was that not written in some note left at the scene, referencing the amount of money that matched the bonus amount? Likely that man has left the country long ago to avoid detection. Such an individual would not be a danger to others, if his anger was very specific. So that might be why they decided not to pursue it.
That must be why John Ramsey says it could be someone who knows them.
@Mom3.0 says:
January 29, 2013 at 1:17 am
“Ahh But Blink it does matter”
——————————————————————–
I will be upfront. I believe the parents were involved.
Think about it: Would an intruder take the time in the Ramsey home to clean up the crime scene i.e. douche JBR’s vaginal area, construct a nonsensical ransom note and practice ransom note (JBR was not kidnapped) and leave it on the stairway inside the home.
The crime scene was not secured by the detective on the scene. John Ramsey allowed Fleet White and his wife to enter the home. At the detectives request John joined Fleet in searching the home. I’ve provided links below some of which are graphic.
See the evidence for yourself:
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682513/The%20Body
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1b.html
lyla- that submission did not and would not get an indictment, and since then a significant DNA profile has been established in this case that not only matches “itself”, but excludes the family entirely.
This was an intended kidnapping that ended in JonBenet’s death- by a sexual sadist.
To believe that the ramsey’s were involved means they could fake that or stage same. Impossible to do so without detection, imo.
B
B
What do you guys think about the “Paul Douglas Peter” did it theory? His method was he used a BASEBALL BAT to threaten the girl when he was caught after putting the collar bomb on the other girl, and in the Ramsey case an extra baseball bat was found in the Ramseys yard in 1996. And in the collar-bomb case he left an email contact with a screen name from a character out of a James Clavell novel, while an extra James Clavell novel was found in the Ramsey house after the 1996 murder there. Here is the rundown from a link: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?p=4798857#post4798857
I do not believe there is any connection. JBR’s offender is a sexual sadist.
B
The author of the book Foreign Faction: Who really kidnapped JonBenet by James Kolar probably has the case solved. Written by a lead LE professional, he had to be discreet in order not to be sued, but his introduction of evidence not seen before, and his analysis (though subtly pinpointing what occurred) will give you in-depth understanding of all the pieces of the puzzle. The best evaluation on the garrote’s validity was done by Delmar England and one can find information on it on http://www.acandyrose.com. If you’ve already made up your mind on this case, no need to bother.
Julie-
respectfully, Kolar was a disgruntled investigator and he self-published because his “theory” is ridiculous. It is NOT supported by evidence or medical finding. It is pure conjecture and it flat out states that the stun gun marks are caused by a piece of train track on 2 separate and distinct areas of her body that could not and would not cause the marks on JBR.
O, and the train tracks were never taken into evidence, and never tested to see what scientific experiment could produce a similar wounding pattern that matches the balance of the autopsy finding.
The whole thing is silly and embarrassing, imo.
B
back to here from Kyron site.
similarity: offender knew family, not sure of reciprocal.
Are you going to write more on this case.
The police never found real evidence of an intruder, either outside the house or inside.
The DNA was touch DNA, and tests showed that it could have come from the clothing manufacturer in Asia. Or even ended up there by other means, since the child always asked for toilet assistance.
The exoneration vis a vis the touch DNA was leveraged by the parents’ attorney who threatened to sue the DA.
Only 4 experts (who were not hired by the Ramsey’s)at the civil trial in Atlanta, by Judge Carnes, stated that the ransom note was not written by Mrs. Ramsey. There were a slew of 6-8 experts who claimed it looked like Mrs. Ramsey’s handwriting – one who testified on the Ramseys’ behalf claimed the likelihood of the note having been written by an intruder to match Mrs. Ramsey’s handwriting was absolutely infintestinal, and another said that out of 100 people reviewed, only Patsy Ramsey couldn’t be eliminated.
Lastly, the majority of expert forensic scientists believed the vagina of the child showed chronic abuse. The Intruder would have had to have been able to get into the home on multiple occasions.
‘Nuf said. Know you have your mind made up. But thought some other readers might be interested.
Sigh. I was not aware that intestinal length had any effect on handwriting similarity but thanks for that tip.
Sorry, had to be a bit of a nudge with a post like this. It is just wildly inaccurate. This child was murdered by a sexual sadist, period.
B
Nudge accepted. Sorry, mispelling corrected to read Infinitesimal.
FYI
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/colorado-reporter-suing-secret-indictment-jonbenet-ramsey-parents-public-article-1.1462208
Hi all,
Just some thoughts…
The amount stated in the ransom note ($118,000), is known to be the same amount John Ramsey received in a bonus from his work.
Is this coincidence?
If this is not a coincidence, surely the number of people with access to this information is limited in numbers, even if John Ramsey was boastful among friends, there can`t be too many he would be this relaxed around. If this information could`ve been obtained through his office, again, the numbers of who could do this must be small.
In 1996, what would be the ways of obtaining this information other than the ways mentioned above?
Spending hours in the home and reading the bank statements would be one way.
Working security in the building and going through open mail, etc. It is not as small as one would think, unfortunately.
B
Thanks for the clarification Blink.
Just another couple of queries while I have the room,…
Can it be determined if it was a garrotte or an exotic asphyxiation device around her neck? Excuse my ignorance but I do not know the purpose of either, especially in regards to this crime.
If this was an intruder and was a sexual crime, what gratification did they get from this and why no semen to accompany the unknown male DNA?
Yes, it was a definite garrote- it’s function in this crime based on my training, education and experience was dual- as a form of torture and for sexual penetration. It is common for this type of offender to have what is called “retarded release”- it would surprise me frankly if semen was found.
If a stun gun was used in the process, at what point the skull fracture, how and why the need?
My personal opinion is the stun gun was used while JBR was sitting at the table eating pineapple, and again after her mouth was taped.
Was there any traces of pineapple found on the clothes JonBenet was wearing at the time she was found?
No.
Over time I am leaning back towards the possibility of an intruder, I actually hope this is eventually proven true. If so, this person must surely have done this again.
I know I need to write on this case. I have studied it previously as a layperson, and more recently with specificity as a criminal investigative analyst. It is not an endeavor I can schedule at the moment, but the grand jury release may push me into it.
This was a definite intruder.
B
http://www.ibtimes.com/jonbenet-ramsey-case-boulder-judge-orders-release-1999-indictment-against-john-patsy-ramsey-child
Just came to see if you had posted a new story on Jonbenet given the order to release the indictment.
Sorry to see you have not.
I am still eager to read your analysis on this case even more so after reading your thoughts in response to Liam.
I must say your assurance that this was a DEFINITE intruder…well that has me scratching my head as with all known evidence how can you be so certain? What more must you Blink know to formulate a definite conclusion and to state it with such confidence…
The info must be very illuminating.
I mean its one thing to review and come up with a well thought out theory based upon your analysis which then has you leaning toward an intruder. But to state as a definite conclusion that this killer was a definite intruder… to disregard/rule out all other seemingly reasonable theories that is far different than stating a mere theory.
And what do you mean by intruder….intruder as in definite stranger or intruder as in family friend/acquaintance…
A Stranger intruder is far different than friend, acquaintance-or enemy…
I realize this is an “old” case but
How how I wish you would share your thoughts/analysis with us.
AJMO Peace
@14 Rose says:
I heard on the radio that this information will be released today.
@Mom3.0. Can you share your definition of a “DEFINITE intruder…”?
If DNA testing rules out all 3 family members, and no nonfamily member slept
in the home that night by invitation or knowledge, I’m not sure what other
alternative exists than an intruder?
Looks like a very bizarre indictment per press accounts.
. Failing to prevent danger (in her own home).
Collusion to coverup for an unknown unidentified assailant. (The latter
reminds me of Horman vilifiers.) These charges hadn’t the merit to prosecute as
child abuse charges even with more evidence.
For an intruder, this was a high risk crime given that he was entering a home and murdering a child while her family were asleep. Even more so because it was sexually motivated. The potential for leaving behind incriminating evidence is enormous given the nature of the crime. It`s not logical that an intruder would leave behind a body and a ransom note, some say he had plenty time to be meticulous, others would suggest the Ramsey`s had just the same. There are elements of staging in this crime which simply cannot be ignored and the grand jury indictment is conformation of this.
Neither theories are impossible, the DNA found is just as questionable as the evidence of chronic sexual abuse is.
@ Rose
I am not sure how my definition of a definite intruder would help clarify Blinks statement of
“This was a definite intruder.”
For you see I was unclear as to what Blink meant- first because we havent read her complete analysis and second because, as I posted- there are many degrees of intruder…
For instance, we have learned from the Jodi Arias case a once welcomed guest can be determined to be an “intruder” Once it is clear that the victim would no longer extend an invitation- as in during a burglary or a date rape or as in Travis’ case a tryst which suddenly turned into a burglary (if gun was his or rope…) or as with the shooting/knife attack which ended his life A was obvious not a welcomed guest.. but instead an intruder.
Rose I understand that many tend to believe that the DNA touch analysis “ruled out” the family but unfortunately that is not the case -
Mary Lacy was just wrong in “clearing” the Ramseys based upon such evidence- IMO
Just because the DNA which was collected ten years after the murder seemingly turned up none from family members -does not clear the Ramseys-
just as finding some evidence of their DNA would not have solved the case with clear convictions of the Ramseys either- as it was afterall their home/ their loved one-
and to go even further still- if the profile turned out to be Fleets or one of the partygoers or the maids or Santas etc- this would not have necessarily pointed to any one of them as being Jon Benets killer…
As touch DNA is just that touch DNA skin cells- that transfer- – given that it is known that little JonBenet did not wash her hands diligently- and asked anyone and anyone within earshot of the bathroom for help-
it is not out of the realm of possibility that the DNA was transferred from prior innocent contact or from little JonBenets own dirty fingernails
Lets keep in mind only certain areas were tested and even though an unknown male profile was found that does not necessarily mean that it is definitely the marker of JonBenets killer.
Could it be- yes
but it is also just as likely that the profile originated thru cross contamination or came about thru chain of custody issues.
First Patsy was unclear as to exactly where and when the PJs came from whether they were laundered or dirty- or when she changed into them or whether she was put in them by her killer…. whether the undies were in the package unopened or whether they were wrapped amongst the presents downstairs-or whether or not they were in Jon Benets dresser…
Point being we dont know- as Patsy at first denied them as being Jon Benets but then said she relented in giving them to her even though they were several sizes too large…
Can anyone really say with any degree of certainty that all those who came in contact with JonBenet before during and in the aftermath were excluded as possible profile matches?
Can anyone really say with ANY degree of certainty that Jon Benets clothing was clean- or if it wasnt mishandled in the autopsy room or by others in the years since the crime?
Just because things like this are not supposed to happen does not mean they do not- as we learned in the sad case of Sandy Hook- when Jean Henry invited her husband into the morgue so he could look at and possibly photograph the body of Adam Lanza -
And we again learned of such occurrences with the sad case of Micheal Stevie and Chris and the WM3- where evidence was tampered with damaged or lost or stolen- some find a weird gratification in handling or seeing or owning real crime artifacts…
For all the reasons above and more I do not think ANYONE can rule any scenario out of the mix as to the where and whys of the DNA profile or lack thereof…
Rose, the Ramseys were unclear on so much and they lied about so much-
such as denying the bowl; and the spoon was theirs etc..
Point being I do not think we can rely on their word alone that no one was in the home other than the 4
nor can we say whether an intruder was a complete stranger or was an acquaintance or business associate or sworn enemy or other-
Careful Rose I wouldnt want anyone to call you insensitive for “comparing” this case to Kyrons case. J/K as I do understand the importance of applying knowledge and info gathered from other cases that may apply to a new case… as I am sure you do as well
But yes I too see some similarities- the biggest right now being that both grand juries were suspended several times and it would seem that with the newest revelations that the grand jury voted to indict yet we never heard about it till YEARS later I think it is safe to assume that no assumptions can be made on what the Grand Jury may or may not be doing in Kyrons case and whatever they may believe on guilt or innocence oit matters not in the “Grand” scheme of things sadly with Hunters decision to keep mum- and Lacys decision to first arrest Karr then “clear” the Ramseys both mistakes IMO
it almost makes the whole process meaningless-
What I have learned is it is still true – what Blink once wrote- when she stated (pp) a case can be as close to “solved” as possible but not be prosecutable- and that usually happens when there has been mistakes made early on that can never be resolved…and still LE can get it wrong and the innocent always pay regardless if it is the victim themselves the wrongly accused, or we the people who long for justice- and get nothing but strung along
I look forward to reading Blinks analysis on this as I am sure she as alot of details and ideas that could aid us in figuring out exactly what she meant and why she seems so confident in her statements.
Interesting enough the more time that passes the more info seems to come out and with each new piece instead of the culprit becoming more clear it seems a light is shown on more possible suspects or more confusing possible scenarios–
Take for instance the Martha Moxley case- I thought I knew everything there was to know about that case
turns out I was wrong- with the latest trial being ordered
I hope Blink will do a write up on that “old” case as well- because she always seems to come up with some alternative info or witness or theory that slams me on my behind-
Peace Rose
AJMO
TY for information & analysis Mom 3.0.
I read a bit on Skakel retrial & watched RFK Jr’s TV interview.
The latter boiled down to he has prayed every day & sees this as a
divine answer, believes passionately Skakel is innocent, & passionately blames Furhmann & D Dunne (now deceased) for the conviction. I plead to insensitive wrt my opinion of his opinion.
Maybe Skakel’s attorney was louzy, but so are multitudinous criminal defense attorneys.
On the child abuse count, the grand jury wrote that the Ramseys “did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child’s life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey.”
On a second count of accessory to a crime, it alleged that each parent “did render assistance to a person” with the intent to prevent their arrest or prosecution, knowing they had “committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death.”
Admittedly, I have not followed this tragic case closely for years, as some have done. However, it seems ludicrous to me that anyone can feel vindicated by the above 2 paragraphs, which represent the total of a grand jury’s indictment of these poor parents. And yet, the bungling Denver police department feels that those same paragraphs validate and vindicate them for their absurd persecution of John and Patsy Ramsey, to this very day.
The horrendous mistakes by LE in this case should have provided sufficient evidence of the incompetence of its early responders and their superiors. This is so very reminiscent of little Kyron’s still unsolved case. Both cases speak loudly and clearly to LE’s training for such terrible events. The immediate mindset that family is ALWAYS responsible needs to be revisited and the protocol rewritten to avoid such miscarriages of justice and more importantly, to catch the pure evil that preys on innocent children and escapes unscathed.
Mom3.0 Amen!
I haven’t commented for along time, as a matter of fact I have almost quite coming and reading @ blink on crime….
I have always admired! blink’s sense of justice, however, jmo I have been dumb founded with articles about John and Patsy….(and articles about Kyron)…
There are some of us that do not see/agree that John and Patsy are “cleared”…so we shake our heads and decide to keep quiet or… go and read somewhere else.
I am glad you are speaking up. I also appreciate the thought out questions and inquiries!
Greetings and Salutations Randie,
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to post that comment to me.
I so appreciate the courage it took for you to write it.
I thank Blink for being such a fair moderator.
I often times think she must hate me and my never ending debate of ALL sides of an issue/case. I think the same could be said for many contributors…
So it was really great to hear from you “out there” in support
I feel the same regarding the touchDNA, as you know-
Still I do feel the need to point out that I do not claim that the ramseys are guilty either-
From all the information I have read or seen for every piece of “evidence” that points toward a ramsey- there is just as much if not more that points to someonelse -
This is very frustrating for me and why I really look forward to reading Blinks analysis.
Perhaps she can shed a light on something that will tip the scales.
Regardless I will be here to ask questions and debate the issues
Ad nauseam
my apologies in advance to all, mostly Blink
Rose, youre most welcome-
Blink if you will allow Id like to discuss the Moxley case for a moment- I do so hope you write something….
ANyway Rose I used to feel much the same as you regarding the Moxley case-
But in truth his defense was not suffice- as IMO it would have been quite easy to poke holes into the “Michael did it” prosecution
I recently reviewed the case and with a fresh pair of eyes clear of emotion- it was scary just how much LE got wrong and mishandled this case.
I do think there is a strong possibility that much of their interpretations of the crimescene and perp were wrong-
The dragging alone could have unclothed Marthas bottom half- and although I do think that some form of sexual motivation could have been at play…I think there is a possibility that the perp may have been a female with jealousy issues or a couple of perps-
IIRC the profile was of someone between the ages of 13 and 18 under the influence of alcohol or other– with anger issues -sibling rivalry issues and mommy issues
Well as I remember that could be most of the teens in Belle haven-
I was also was shocked by some info which I dont remember reading during the trial- regarding her brother and his friends behaviors in the aftermath
None of this however rules out Michael or his family
we all know The Skakels were a large family and IF there was a coverup of some sort it isnt hard to imagine that evidence was tampered with
But at the same time it isnt hard to imagine that The unruly skakel boys may have been easy scapegoats- they were blamed for much of what went wrong in Belle Haven long before the murder-
With a closer look it becomes apparent most of the teens were not that different in family dysfunctions, behaviors or temperament or in their chosen vices –
and everyones alibis for that night are not as sound as some would like to think- and as we all sadly realize the time of death is a rather large window of time.
For me this is another case to ponder over
Who killed Martha did we get the right perp as i hope- and if so is he the only perp or is it possible we got it all wrong?
IDK
Mom3.0 walks off with head down as the melancholy “snoopy” music plays on…
AJMo
Peace
OMG. All I can say is that I have followed this case since this child was murdered. My daughter was the same age as Jonbenet and I remember all the sleepless nights I had thinking of this child and the horror she went through. I also never had any doubt that it was one of the parents who killed her. So much evidence to support the theory that it could only been them. It is your opinion that she was killed by a sexual sadist and the sexual sadism here is obvious…but since when may I ask, are parents mothers or fathers not able of sexual sadism against their own children…? Who sits there and writes a 3 page ramson note that makes absolutely no sense not only in its content but on its intention..? Since when does a killer leave behind such senseless evidence that contradicts what actually happened since she was not kidnapped but murdered? I know this case like the back of my hand and I have never for an instant wavered in my belief of who killed her. And I even have a theory as to why she was killed which I have never heard anyone else discuss. And Thank you for allowing me to express this opinion which I have held inside for so many years….
soundbeach- this was a sexual sadist, likely pedophile, but not necessarily. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. Having studied this “profile” as well as this case under different disciplines directly under FBI protocol as much as I hate to say this- this crime was not staged, it was not perpetrated by a parent designed to stage some outrageous act- it is solely the work of an intruder known to this family with his DNA on 3 separate and distinct areas of physical evidence of the victim. 3 sources that match, one if which is comingled with JBR hemo.
Facts form theory- not the other way around.
B
And please excuse my after thoughts of which I have a million, but whether Patsy R new it or not, she was sexualizing this child consciously or subconsciously and anyone qualified could come up with a psychological profile that could link anyone of these two parents with potential psychopathological sexual deviant behavior.
Soundbeach, that is inaccurate. There was absolutely no history of sexual deviance with either parent. I am not a fan of throwing such terms around at folks- most especially since 1997 no professional ever has in this case. I do agree that the whole child pageant thing is unhealthy, stereotypical propaganda and to pedophiles- it can be arousing. The very fact that is a true and factual statement should be enough to dissuade any Mother from being interested in this path.
I realize I may offend some, that is not my intention. Consider it a respectful wake-up call.
B
Blink no need to post this just thought you might appreciate the link- to an AMAA on Reddit by Former Police Chief Mark Beckner
http://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/2v81le/forthcoming_amaa_former_police_chief_mark_beckner/
Thank you Mom3.0. You would think the lead investigator would be able to read a DNA report – let’s see if he steps up with the facts.
B
I don’t know if you have read the content of this “blog chat” yet but I find it rather upsetting because I’m a long-time resident of Boulder County and I guess that makes it personal to me … I don’t think Mark Beckner misstates any facts… but he does say the foreign DNA is trace evidence that he believes does not belong to the murderer… if not for that, prosecution of the Ramsey’s would have moved forward…
I have always believed this crime had to be committed by someone with a sick sexual appetite but Beckner dismisses that as well… he believes the sexual part was staged to cover up however it was she sustained the head injury…
IDK Blink, between him and Mary Lacy this crime will never be solved… he said that too… nothing short of a confession…
I don’t know for certain if he mistated anything, but I do know that I disagree with his interpretation of some of the evidence. There was a lot I think the posters missed asking him about. I absolutely agree all of the grand jury transcripts should be released.
B
If you don’t mind saying, what else might you have asked him?
I don’t mind- but I have stated previously I don’t think it is fair to piece-meal comment on a case I have not covered in total for context. So, in addition to many others- I would have asked him if the DNA profiles are in CODIS and under what category and I would have asked him for the loci reporting and amplification bench notes for each. Then I would have asked him based on same, why he was understanding that 3 samples match each other, and one of those is intermingled with JBR blood.
B
I’m sorry Blink… did you mean to say he did NOT understand the triplicate match? because that is what I think you meant… I certainly hope that the profile is in CODIS and they are doing periodic searches against known data… it would not surprise me that if ever there is a match to someone, he might be a friend or associate of the older son who was attending CU at the time and living in a fraternity house… the University was closed for the Holidays including the dorms and frat houses… and it is conceivable to me that in a house as large as the Ramsey’s someone could slip in and out on a cold night with nowhere else to go and without being known… especially if he had been there before… hanging out, playing pool, drinking beer, eating a home-cooked meal… I often wonder if this is something that was ever checked out… I imagine with as many people that went through that house in between Thanksgiving and Christmas it would have been next to impossible to identify every set of prints … what do you think?… Thank you very much for responding to me… I have been reading here for many years but only recently started posting anywhere… I trust you and with this blog you are help the rest of us discover the truth.
Heres the cahed link no need to rely on my PP or remembrances:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RSI1fS2QJbkJ:www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/2wowat/i_am_former_boulder_police_chief_mark_beckner_i/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Blink, Beckner did state that DNA was in codis and has as yet returned No match-
The cached link does not contain the entire chat- so i can not say if his DNa codis remark was totally in response to the touch DNA or if it included a response to a question concerning the fecal matter left in downstairs toilet.
His response PP was with advancements made they now would be able to compare for match….
He now regrets doing the AMA- and went so far as to go back and delete his responses. I can sympathize having had my own share of posters remorse…but really did he not clear this with anyone before going ahead? IDK
he says he shared no new info so not sure why he felt the need to go back and delete-
He never pointed fingers and spoke to each theory-
Here are comments I noted before deletion:
–] MarkBeckner[S] 3 points 21 hours ago
Not everyone we investigated had a concrete alibi and some were pretty strange individuals,
including sex offenders living in Boulder. However, we could not find any evidence to link any
of them to the murder. We did interviews, handwriting analysis, fingerprints, and DNA on people
we investigated. Nothing matched. The foreign DNA came from somewhere and if it is
connected to the crime, then it had to come from an intruder. That’s what makes this case so
challenging.
another:
[–] BeeElleZebub 5 points 1 day ago
It appears that you are back?
So how could the parents not be arrested for neglect if there was evidence of long standing
sexual abuse? I don’t understand how they got away with so much. It was all about the money,
wasn’t it? If they’d been poor, the son would have been taken away and someone would have
been convicted. I’m not saying you were negligent, just that our system is. But if someone came
into my home and found one of my kids dead, and proof that she had been molested for a long
time, I know that my other kid would be taken away from me.
• permalink
[–] MarkBeckner[S] 8 points 1 day ago
It was a question we had early on as well. The decision in this case was made by department of
social services. We could not prove who was responsible for the prior abuse. Could it have come
from someone outside the family who later returned to kill her?
and:
[–]smartgrowth 36 points 3 days ago*
all the physicians who examined JonBenet’s body said she had been sexually violated many times -except the Ramseys doctor! Yet, the sexual motive was rarely mentioned later in the case. Why?
[–]MarkBeckner[S] 56 points 3 days ago
It just didn’t seem to fit the totality of the circumstances. Remember, she was hit on the head first, hard enough to render her unconscious. Then there was the staging of a kidnapping. Why do that if the motive is purely sexual?
From /u/Mo7ia7ty:
and:
KushTheKitten 7 points 2 days ago
First off thanks for the ama. You mentioned that certain aspects of the crime scene seemed
staged. What makes you suggest this and do you have any theories as to why?
[–] MarkBeckner[S] 20 points 2 days ago
Lots of reasons really. One, the ransom note was fake – there was no kidnapping and kidnappers
do not write such notes. The ties around the hands were too loose to be of any use, thus it was
part of the staging. The body was wrapped in a blanket and she had her favorite nightgown with
her. The garroting of the neck was unnecessary since the blow to the head came first and she was
unconscious and near death. Why the garrote? The tape was put on her mouth after being
unconscious or dead and it was a small piece, not really enough to keep someone’s mouth shut
for long. The broken paintbrush used to simulate sex assault. All these were clues to staging
and another:
From /u/Mo7ia7ty:
Was the handwritten note tested for DNA/fingerprints? And do the police think the murderer sat in the house and wrote a long winded note on the Ramseys note pad before attempting to kidnap her. obviously didnt do it after if it was a criminal as they would have just got out. Also how might the “kidnapper” have known how much john ramseys bonus was. thanks.
[–]MarkBeckner[S] 61 points 3 days ago
Yes, of course it was. The only fingerprint on the note was one belonging to the document examiner at the Colorado Bureau of Investigation (CBI). On the notepad from which the note came from, the only fingerprints on the pad belonged to the CBI agent, the sergeant with the police department who took the pad into custody, and Patsy Ramsey. No, we do not believe a someone wrote the note prior to attempting to kidnap JonBenet. Neither the PD or the FBI believe this was ever a kidnapping. It was a murder that someone tried to stage as a kidnapping.
and Still more answers to posters many questions:
[–]MarkBeckner[S]
Did you find any sign of a struggle at all?
Other than her injuries, no.
Did you do any testing for noise travel in the house? Could someone have screamed from the basement and been heard in any bedrooms?
Yes, we did some testing. It would have been difficult to hear a scream, depending of course on how loud it was.
Was the victims brother interviewed and if so did anything seem out of the ordinary?
I’m going to pass on this one.
Do you believe the killer was in the house during the previous open house that occurred shortly before the murder?
No reason to believe this.
Can you clarify the condition of the snow ground cover the morning the first officer arrived? Was it patchy or solid and were any footprints ever noted by the open window leading away?
It was patchy from an older snowfall, but there was frost on the ground from the humidity and temperature that night. No footprints were observed near the window well or on the deck to JonBenet’s bedroom.
Do you believe the ransom note to be written before or after her death?
After
Did the original officer to respond report anything strange?
Yes, quite a few observations seemed strange to him.
Was urine found anywhere in the victims room bathroom or on her clothes?
Her clothes and bed appeared to be stained
Was any fingerprints found on the door leading into the room containing the body including the families?
Three palm prints were found, two belonging to Patsy Ramsey and one belonging to John Andrew Ramsey.
My young daughter reads mysteries with me and thought perhaps a jilted parent from a previous pageant that lost to Jon Benet could have taken the pad and pen during the open house and written the letter to setup the parents. Out for revenge for a loss, any way this could hold any water? Is it possible the victim knew the killer from a pageant and this was all a movie like setup?
Anything is possible, but we found no evidence to support this.
and
From /u/ajaxatax:
There were always rumours about a local man, and possibly neighbor, who had been stalking the family. The rumours went so far as to suggest there was evidence of this man (wellies footprints) but that the investigation was so botched that such evidence was inadmissible…or that whoever he was had good enough connections in town to make it look botched. Any truth to this? That there was another person of interest that was never identified? Also that before you took over evidence was miss handled?
[–]MarkBeckner[S] 33 points 3 days ago
We dealt with hundreds of rumors and followed up on all of them that made any sense. I do not recall ever hearing the rumor you just described. I’m not aware of any evidence we have that would be inadmissible, but of course you never know that for sure until you get to trial. The crime scene was mishandled on the first day of our response and this did hinder the investigation.
Last thing I noted before Mr Beckner deleted:
–]MarkBeckner[S] 12 points 1 day ago
This will be my last post, but after reading some of the follow-up posts, I believe there may have been some misinterpretation of some of my comments or “reading between the lines”. I want to emphasize that I do not fully know what happened that night or who killed JonBenet, as some have surmised. If anyone did, this would not be a mystery. This is why I do not speculate. I simply answered questions as truthfully as possible and only on things that have already been reported. Dismissing the intruder evidence is a mistake and as I emphasized in an earlier post, the location of the foreign DNA is significant. This could very likely be the person who killed JonBenet. However, we will not be sure until and if they find out who it belongs to. And, just because we can not prove a point of entry, doesn’t mean someone didn’t find a way to get in. Just as I believe we can not exonerate on one piece of evidence, neither can we ignore evidence. Finally, everyone is presumed innocent until proven otherwise. Thanks again.
—
I appreciated his coming forward I think it was a mistake to go back and delete-
AJMO Peace
As I said in response when I read some of this- his interpretation of the DNA evidence is incorrect- as is some of the other claims. That can be his opinion, but it is not supported forensically- of that I am positive.
Interesting backpedal to say the least. Within the body of the text it is clear he believes JBR was killed by one of the Ramsey’s and there was no intruder and he has a mystery explanation for the DNA results and placement.
Lastly- could be a function of the fact that some did not ask- but he missed a great deal as well and I don’t think it is prudent when presenting your opinion as a former LEO.
Thanks for posting Mom3.0!
B
Blink I hope someday you will write on this case again –
Yes it does read like he believes it was a Ramsey-
Yet he says that they couldnt prove if or which person sexually abused JBR and it may have been someone outside the family…then why cant they (LE) be more open-minded about the same scenario regarding the killing itself?
I mean to me it is plausible someone close to the family or someone W/inside knowledge of the family could be the perp- I realize that this realization of mine occurred only after reading yr thoughts on possible adolescent/young adult W/ D&D knowledge etc may have done this
To me that is the only IDT theory that would explain things like the note and the infiltration of the home- its the only theory that comes close to explaining the perps mindset the cruelness along w the braziness along w. the stupidity/immaturity
IMO The note its length and verbage points away from the Ramseys all of them – but someone who wanted to make it personal- not “foriegn”
I mean come on if it were them the note would have simply read:
Attention
Your daughter has been kidnapped
$500,000 for safe return
Stay in the home
Stay off the phone
She dies if you alert anyone
Be patient Further instructions to come
I hope I can make the time to as well Mom3.0- it is an important case to me. I will say that even a former FBI BAU section chief who analyzed the ransom note originally got it wrong- HOWEVER, he admitted it publicly. Beckner needs to know that the Ramsey case is frequently part of training protocols and I can say that I have yet to come across a single member of the FBI, current or retired that agree with Beckner or Kolar’s theory of the case. This was a sexually motivated ritualistic offender, not a parent- and I was quite annoyed with Beckner’s misrepresentations of forensic evidence- a few of his comments were flagrantly wrong.
B
@Mom3.0 why cant they (LE) be more open-minded about the same scenario regarding the killing itself?
I think I read because it’s too creepy for him… even though he said it about the likes of Mark Carr … he doesn’t want to tell us there is even the possibility of there being a monster among us…
RE searchinGirl says:
March 3, 2015 at 7:28 pm
Thanks for sharing yr thoughts- very thought provoking-
especially :
he doesn’t want to tell us there is even the possibility of there being a monster among us…
—
This is what really gets me- is that even with the grandjury – there was and has ALWAYS been the very real possibility that John Patsy and Burke werent the monster.
What I mean is even the grand jury wasnt sure…they were still hoping for more evidence even Beckner- backtracked in the AMA (in the sense that anyone reading could pick up on his leanings)
In his last statement he said PP
that as long as the DNA is unaccounted for there is a potential for someone other than J or P or B having been the killer- and he made it clear that those who believed JB had signs of Long term abuse… were never certain who it was (family or other) that had been sexually assaulting her…
—
Blink can you expand on what beckner had wrong w/ the forensic evidence-
Is it that he thought the DNA evidence left behind was sweat or saliva? I think I recall u stating it was blood/ blood mixings? Is there more than this too?
Did he have the finger/palm print evidence correct? If so that bit still has me wondering- I mean how is the killers prints not on it or Johns prints having been the one to actually open said door?
Sorry its just that with the amount of time that has passed and the amount of coverage and convo over the years to include rumors i cant seem to separate what was mere speculation and rumor from what was fact anymore…
AP
Mom 3.0- I feel like I owe it to her case to provide a full analysis, I just do not have the time to dedicate to it as much as I would like to, and to answer your question fully I would need to from an ethical perspective. However, let me answer you generally if that’s ok.
1. There is no data from JBR autopsy protocol to support Beckner’s comments that she lived 45 minutes following the TBI. And to my knowledge, there is no expert that would ever back that up with certainty. I know what he is likely referring to if in fact he has any basis for the claim in the first place- again, would need to be part of an analysis to offer my opinion except to say he is not qualified to make that statement.
2. Again- not gonna break down the whole DNA issue in this response except to say that I would never have made the comments he did without referencing the actual lab and bench notes of the examiner(s) coupled with the final report to include source.
3. It should be noted that Beckner referenced Kolar’s book which indicates that the circular abrasions were caused by a train track part- which btw, I think is ludicrous, however, it means that his theory of where it happened does not concur with his as he says she was killed elsewhere in the home and planted in the basement. So how then does she get the abrasions? My point is this- there is a reason that half LE and half of the DA’s office could never agree on just about anything in this case. It is because this case comes down to 2 theories – either it was an intruder or it wasn’t and for my money if you CANNOT exclude an intruder you can never CONCLUDE it isn’t possible and that is an oversimplification of my feelings on this case to the nth. This was sexual sadist and in my view if he is ever caught it will be learned he was interviewed by LE.
B
THANK YOU blink for doing yr best to answer my questions-
Yes I now understand yr thoughts better and I agree-
as long as “intruder” is used here to incorporate the potential for friend, extended family- acquittance not necessarily a “stranger”?
With this Blink statement:
This was sexual sadist and in my view if he is ever caught it will be learned he was interviewed by LE.
-
Am I to understand that you believe that the perp is still alive and possibly reoffending?
The reason I ask is I thought it was very odd that Beckner stated he never heard rumor of pp neighborhood man being the perp…
How could he not hear of HelGoth et al ? He may not have been a “neighbor” but?
Its not that I believe he was the perp but just strange that Beckner denied as if not to recall such info….
I recently learned the DR, Zueess book was not a childrens book but was a story for adults featuring naked cartoon drawings centered around a story of Lady Godiva
- Which now has me questioning/ disregarding any theory of Pramsey being the perp or in the know-
for IIRC in her interview with Smit- she had NO knowledge of John Andrew having a “Dr Zuess” book and found the idea ludicrous- which says to me she like most was unaawre of Dr Zueess adult story and therefore unaware of the suitcase and its contents altogether…
and IMO someone put that suitcase there w/ those particular items and someone turned the dictionary to incest…
someone wanted a certain tale to be told from the scene and all evidence left out ..or not// pen pad put away= practice notes… pineapple…items out of place pillow in kitchen etc and those left left behind to include the note the paint brush…the pics of Jon Benet in the basement etc…
To me upon further review it almost”reads” as if someone was scared JB was on the verge of talking so they planted evidence of dont look here- look to the family …
IDK its all so deliberate…
A&P
Did Beckner specifically say he had no knowledge of Helgoth? That would floor me.
Yes, I think her murderer is still alive- I don’t know about re-offending except to say it is likely he has never been arrested for a felony.
If I were Boulder PD- I would hand the task of going back over early interviews with the profile in mind, and take a fresh look.
B
No Blink, He did not specifically mention Helgoth- he answered a question regarding a rumor
Thanks for answering regarding perp being alive- scary
I hope LE take yr advisement seriously and go back for a fresh look-
Link to quote at extras.denverpost.com
Beckner: “The media attention and the intrigue of a good murder mystery attracts lots of people. Add a small beauty queen and it only intensifies the interest. If only 1% of the population is crazy, in our country alone that would mean there are about 3,600,000 crazy people out there wanting to give us their wacky ideas.”
If there is one consistent thing in stories about JonBenet’s murder, it’s that the crime scene was not secured by the Boulder Police in the initial hours of the investigation… and everything else is just “wacky ideas”. I don’t see how anyone can look at the crime scene photos of Jonbenet’s hair twisted up in those knots and say it was staged?… Or that skull fracture?… Sure looks like a golf club iron hit her to me…I mean, this poor little girl was tortured and sexually assaulted until she was dead from injuries that were most likely inflicted to silence her while a mad man played out his fantasy… I think to portray this as staging is a disservice to this poor innocent child and a wacky idea…I am curious if the ransom note could have been a part of this mad man’s play?… Something he may have used to engage Jonbenet in his drama? Something she may have believed she helped him compose? Something she was going along with?… Until he started hurting her?… Please forgive me if I crossed the wacky line….
I agree with you except for the golf club- I do believe it was a maglite. I believe strongly this was always intended as a kidnapping and when he realized he could not get her out the window in the suitcase- he assaulted her right there. I don’t think it was ever intended to be a ransom- but a way to steal time – perhaps he had some sort of cabin in the woods. Nobody will ever convince me that letter was written after the brutal sexual assault and masochistic torture of a 6 year old to cover up an accident. I wonder if these people even hear themselves out loud.
B
if the killer’s objective was to take her elsewhere, why not take her out the door? … why take her out the window in a suitcase?… playing Peter Pan? … I know this crime makes no sense to anybody but… I refuse to accept it can’t be solved… so, I’m wondering… is kidnapping essential to the sexual sadism profile? I’m reading another thread here about Austin Sigg and the profile of the sexual sadist… you say it’s very rare… I have to admit Blink, I get a bit uneasy when I think about your thoughts on Sigg being mentored… is there any more to be known about that?… these two murders, Jessica and Jonbenet, although separated by time, are way too close together in distance for a profile you say is so rare… I live within 10 miles of either crime scene… should I be creeped out?
Because he had no way of knowing if that would trip the alarm. The basement was not secured with the alarm. I don’t know in 96 what sort of standards in alarming there were, but I do know that what exists today (in my home as well) secures the basement just as it does every other point of entry- and then some.
Excellent question- not necessarily critical to the profile- re kidnapping to sexual sadists- but it depends on their access and the fantasy continuum they are functioning under. In my view- both of those cases have a disrupted fantasy and therefore both are highly inexperienced and goes to “age”. But to be clear- it is inappropriate to profile single incidents outside of empirical data and speculation.
Every person should consider the possibility that as rare as it is- they could be the target of an offender in their life- the best advice I can give is to read The Gift of Fear- Gavin DeBecker- and truly practice listening to your satellites and teach your kids and family the same.
B
The fact that he knew that in itself is relevant for me. There are many facts and examples in Ramsey that will never fit anything but an intruder and not the “made up variety” to cover an accident.
Its me again Blink and believe it or not Im posting another link to an upcoming ama on Reddit -
this time with James Kolar
snipped:
On Saturday March 28th (US) we will be hosting an AMA with James Kolar, current Chief of Police in Telluride, CO, and former lead investigator into the Jon-Benet Ramsey homicide.
http://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/2z3312/ama_announcement_chief_of_police_and_former/
—
What would you ask him Blink- I know what youd like to tell him LOL but what would you ask professionally if you could IRT The Ramsey case or his speculations anything?
Without writing my own piece on the case, I am hesitant to answer that question- however, I will say again that it should be noted that Becker learned his lesson (albeit late) so if Kolar wants to weigh in my guess is he is attempting PR for poor book sales. Once again however, I am aware he misinterprets evidence and flat out makes some up ( the train track theory- wth kind of nonsense is that?) I am just over anyone blaming the parents considering..
B
Thanks for giving the best answer you could right now Blink-
Another interesting thing popped up on Reddit related to discussion on this case-
http://fox2now.com/2015/03/12/court-documents-reveal-potentially-sinister-motive-behind-kidnapping-attempt/
snipped:
A 17-year-old is charged with sneaking into a classmate’s home to kidnap the friend’s little sister.
Investigators with the O’Fallon Police Department said John Classen of O’Fallon had gone to the home legally two days ago and unlocked a basement window so he could enter the home at a later time.
Classen allegedly snuck into the basement early Thursday and waited for more than four hours before going upstairs and snatching the 10-year-old victim as she slept on a couch. The girl struggled and fought back as they were going down the basement stairs, causing Classen to fall.
The victim’s parents heard the noise and called 911.
…….Police said Classen admitted to the crimes and admitted to stalking the victim on several occasions prior to this incident.
Makes yr whole profile/theory even more plausible Blink- JMO
—-With so many young kidnappers/offenders lately in the news it makes it much more believable that such an offender may have succeeded even prior to 2000
All criminals began their life of crime sometime was it in the teens earlier later- ….- perhaps even cops couldnt believe that scenario possible in 1997 let alone the 80s… 50s earlier
Makes me wonder how many cases go unsolved because no one thought it could be done by one so young
AJMO peace
Hi Blink!
First off, I hope you and yours had a wonderful Christmas
This time of year always brings me to thinking of poor JonBenet.
I got to reading about John Douglas and his interpretation of the evidence and the kind of suspect he would consider the most likely to have committed this crime. Very interesting stuff, so much so, it has completely turned my opinion in the opposite way. I no longer believe the Ramseys were in any way involved in their daughters death.
Significant points that stood out for me were:
The items used to restrain JonBenet (rope, duct tape and stun gun) could not be sourced to the house and would certainly be items an intruder would bring.
The fact that JonBenet was strangled first dismisses any possible motive presented that the
contd…
Ramseys were responsible.
Even though I was sceptical about the touch DNA found, when faced with the other evidence, this is the conviction ticket. DNA belongs to the killer, most likely.
All it took is someone with knowledge of the subject to present the cold hard facts in this case and make you realise how wrong you can see some things.
One of the worst things is to lose a child, unimaginable is being blamed for it.
You really need to do a piece on this because I truly believe, when presented correctly, the evidence will show it is undeniable that an intruder murdered this child.
I have never written about her case profile, but I have studied it for years. Prior to his passing I had an oppty to discuss it with Lou Smit. In my view Mr. Smit was one of the best criminal investigators in the world. To date he has cleared more homicide cases in his career than any other in US history. If I am being honest, he would credit a large portion of his success to his faith so I try to remember that in my work as well.
One of the strongest tools we have in investigation are forensic results- they are neutral by definition and investigators are trained ( if they are trained properly) to follow where the evidence leads, not form theory from the lack of it- which happened in this case.
John Douglas takes some heat from colleagues because he chose a different path ( Mr. Hollywood) but as I trained under some of them, I can tell you he is an incredibly respected peer.
In a nutshell- at the end of the day- this was a sexually motivated crime, likely committed by someone who knew the family at least tangentially, and I strongly suspect was present at the parade/pageant and Ramsey open house prior to the murder.
I suppose you are right Liam, lol, someday I will have to write about JBR’s case. To your point I guess I cannot really complain about the closed mindedness of so many that have followed that case and still really believe the Ramseys are guilty if I am unwilling to present my findings-
Happy Holidays and nice to see you.
B
I have neither followed nor read about the case, and don’t plan to, too many Crazy Characters analyzing it.
But the A&E special was well done and led me to form the opinion the perp knew the family, their members, routines, and plans (ie departure to MI), something about the house, and definitely which room was JB’s. I concluded the perp might have been a male relative of a household employee. I looked up Pugh (probably there were other hired people for this or that), and see her husband was ruled out by dna. However, I posit a conflicted relationship by mother with her throughtout the 14 mo term of employment, not just postabduction, to the extent Pugh might bad mouth tge parents at home with her own family. Idk why Patsy hired a lower socio-class white with 10 chikdren (blended family), other than it reminded her of WV as a norm, and perhaps having a black, hispanic, or philipino housekeeper was less comfortable for her than the “known.” Employer/helper boundaries were broken as Pugh claimed her 13 yo was a regular playmate of their 6 yo. Likely 13 yo gossiped about JB and her room to those 9 adult sibs. And some of those 9 had to be males. Moreover Pugh reportedly was enamored of the live JB and probably gossipped about her to her 9 “adult” children too. BPD should have ascertained which of the 9 adukt kids lived in Boulder area, or were home for Xmas. Then run alibis and tried to get dna.
Brink.i am. Going read this soon as I get time l see Mom3.0 has followed JonBenet
I hope she she sees all the programs
“re Liam says:
October 19, 2013 at 6:27 pm
Hi all, Just some thought The amount stated in the ransom note ($118,000), is known to be the same amount John Ramsey received in a bonus from his work. Is this coincidence?”
http://blinkoncrime.com/2013/01/28/ramseys-indicted-in-jonbenets-murder-in-1999-da-alex-hunter-refused-to-prosecute/
Housekeeper likely heard it mentioned between or by a Ramsey. And I’ve formed the impression Ramsey family doings were a subject of gossip with her husband and 10 kids. $118 k bonus was likely a matter of great envy on their parts. Wondering what Xmas bonus she herself expected or asked for before Ramseys left town, and if the Pughs were disappointed?
It is my understanding Pugh requested a $2500 loan the week before the murder.
B
Who was Pugh’s first husband and who was his first wife? A&E alluded
the dna was noncaucasian.
More than that- they know the individual has some Hispanic ancestry.
B
Mom3.0 I guess I could say hi to you
It is nice to see your attention to little JonBenet. I often think of her
The here are lots of programs right now for the 20 years
Tonite is Dateline at 9:00 NBC or local KGW
Who in the family’s orbit had some hispanic ancestry?
Did they have yardworkers?
If one ignores his abysmal (imo) politics preceding,
L Wood had quite the twitter feed response to Dateline
last nite.