Blink On Crime Kyron Horman Investigation Exclusive: DeDe Spicher Interview Yields Allegations Of Illegal Steroid Use Terri Horman Took To Police
A Blink On Crime Exclusive: DeDe Spicher speaks for the first time about her ordeal in the Kyron Horman investigation- continued ©
S. Christina Stoy, Editor In Chief- Blink On Crime
DeDe Spicher and Terri Moulton Horman
In the first part of blinkoncrime.com’s exclusive interview with DeDe Spicher, she revealed that after over 3 years of attempting to provide Multnomah County Sheriffs Office as well as Assistant Deputy Attorney Norm Frink with the necessary information they requested to clear her from any suspicion in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Skyline second grader Kyron Horman; she has finally been cleared after passing a polygraph as part of her requirement under an immunity deal that has been sealed with the court. Unofficially cleared, that is.
Spicher and her attorney Chad Stavley, who have since refused all local media requests, would very much like the Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office and current District Attorney Rod Underhill to clear her officially and publicly.
Spicher is adamant that law enforcement never had any reason to question her statements to them from the beginning, has cooperated fully for over three years and recently testified before the grand jury to prove she had nothing to hide. While she would like the public to know that any assertions to the contrary are untrue, and sometimes have been offered maliciously, her desire to speak out about her experience over the last three years is primarily to force investigative resources to review it’s progress- and hopefully adjust in a way to further leads in Kyron’s case.
As was proven not only by her recent polygraph, but also by the verification that no evidence ever existed to support investigator’s theory in the first place, Spicher had no information about anyone’s potential involvement in Kyron’s disappearance, let alone her own.
The continuation of our interview, which provoked some very interesting revelations long felt to be a possibility by many, was confirmed by Ms. Spicher as she says- told to her by Terri Moulton Horman are prompting new possible theories in the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Kyron Horman. Two days after Kyron Horman’s eleventh birthday.
Stoy: So, in your estimation then, why do you think that detectives Herron and Kravfe were so sure that you were involved or knew who was.
Spicher: I have thought about this a lot, and I think there were a few reasons. I think because I was advised through a meeting Terri had with a family friend and attorney that she should assume that all of her communication was being monitored by law enforcement and anyone she had contact with. He told her to assume the house was bugged as well as vehicles, etc. I also believe you did an article a while back that pointed out her phone was in Kaine’s name. As this was a day or two after she was served with the restraining order, she was also told that
Stoy (interrupting): You bought a prepaid phone after June 28th and never had one before that? I had read that you or someone else purchased them the day of or the day after Kyron’s disappearance.
Spicher: No. I purchased one prepaid phone, after Terri shared the info from her meeting, in my own name, either June 29th or 30th. I think they were hung up on the fact that I came to her aid with no contact for so long so they just were convinced there had to be.
Stoy: ok, sorry, continue. So you are not saying that LE was suggesting that you were hiding some other number you had and that was how they were alleging that you HAD to have been in contact with Terri or some other person prior to and on June 4th and that escalated your “poi” status in your opinion?
Spicher: They did not say that to me specifically, but what they repeated over and over again, was that Terri and I had to have had some form of communication we were hiding. It never made any sense to me because I knew I only had my cell that I had forever until the end of June, and I knew I had not been in contact with Terri since her 40th birthday party in March. So I would ask- well then I guess that means that you don’t have any contacts you can’t verify from either of us so why am I even in this “interview”?
To my recollection they never shared with me or answered any of my questions in response when something they kept hounding me about seemed absurd and conflicting with their theory.
Stoy: Which was?
Spicher: At first, I think that they really believed I was involved, and at some point I think they were talking more “accessory after the fact” because I got the impression ( although they did not share it with me) that Terri’s cell phone activity that day was nowhere near where I was, and my vehicle never left, nor did I. They would not verify that they located the ceramics/glassware artist [pottery artisan] I told you about and still have not.
Stoy: So in your opinion, you were clearly the linchpin of this case, they [LE] believed you held the key to solving it and/or implicating Terri exclusively at that point, they no longer entertained your involvement per se?
Spicher: I honestly don’t think I could say that I ever believed that they stopped treating me as some sort of suspect. I never felt that way, but yes, absolutely they 100% believe that Terri is responsible and I definitely believed we all had to be interviewed and scrutinized or whatever, but I really thought up until the meeting with Norm Frink that they [LE] would abandon that theory quickly because if they were positive I was the key, and I knew I was not, that would also eliminate Terri, who I did not and do not believe, but have no proof, was involved or knew anything.
Stoy: Right, so if you had nothing, and they felt you were the only nexus, it had to mean that they had no independent evidence of anything or anyone else so they would start in another direction?
Spicher: Right, but every interaction I had with them following and including the request to participate in the sting against her, made me believe they never did. To get back to the why question you asked me- my final thought on that is that they kept pointing out that I was the person to tell everyone not to speak to them without attorneys in the beginning. I would ask like who do you mean, because that would have been my opinion across the board for any situation, but it was definitely based on what was getting out about how they were going about this. I was scared and it turned out it was good reason. I also would point out to them that I did not think that was or should be the basis for suspicion because if it was, it seemed to me that I was told that several staff members at Skyline had hired counsel, and Kaine was the FIRST to have one between he and Terri and I had told her at least a week or so before that she should.
Stoy: Why do you think she did not immediately take your friendly advice? Your Dad was LE, and I presume she knew that. People can say what they want, but I know many members of law enforcement in different jurisdictions and agencies. I have worked with them or contributed analysis to cases with them privately [I cannot and would not ever include that in anything I choose to write on] and I can tell you that I do not know one of them that if they were the focus of a criminal probe or internal investigation they absolutely do not agree to an interview without a representative. In fact, Herron is or was the President of Mulnomah County Police Union or was, if I recall correctly. So to that end, I find that a pretty hypocritical reason for suspicion of anyone.
Spicher: (laughs) Interesting. I am not sure that I knew that. The reason Terri didn’t get an atty before the RO was because she was told by LE that if she did, she wouldn’t be privvy to any of their investigative discoveries, she would be out of the loop in finding Kyron.
Stoy: Have you had a desire or opportunity to review any sort of past events regarding the MCSO, I guess I should add, that involve anyone in this case or investigation you have had contact with?
Spicher: No, do you mean like any other detectives or that sort of thing?
Stoy: Have you ever met with or been interviewed with any other agencies or detectives?
Spicher: I believe I either met or just said hello to the guy you mentioned in that recent article of yours while he was at the house. Both Kaine and Terri were there at the time as well.
Stoy: Bobby O’Donnell?
Spicher: That’s it, yes, him. Why did you ask me if I am aware of any sort of events- should I be?
Stoy: Well, I think that tangentially if I were you I would be considering just about everything as it related to what you have been through, and I am aware of some what I will refer to as “stuff” but what I don’t want to do prior to the completion of our interview process is temper any of your responses with anything I know peripherally if that’s ok with you. If you wish, once I publish the continuation which will have that sort of information, I would invite you to comment on it for the record if you choose- are you ok with that?
Spicher: yes, that’s fine and probably a good idea.
Stoy: back briefly to the “sting request against Terri- On that issue- the request they extended to you outside the presence of your attorney and that they asked you not to tell Chad, as you think back , considering you have had no communication with Horman for over three years did you believe they thought it would work? What did your attorney say when you told him?
Spicher: I can’t and won’t address any conversations I have had with my attorney, but to answer your question as to my opinion, I really don’t know for sure, I knew that I did not, and thought it was really, really odd- that was my first reaction. After more thought, and other conversations, I don’t see how they thought it would work, or why they were still seemingly convinced after I had just passed the poly, etc, Terri was still their suspect and responsible. What is your opinion on it?
Stoy: I think I may reserve my thoughts on that for my piece. Again, not wanting to temper your opinions as we move along here and I think that could happen if I did. Is that ok with you?
Spicher: Sure, thank you.
Stoy: I would like to move on to another subject for discussion. I would just like to confirm for the record that I have never prior to this interview, asked you any questions about your potential knowledge of steroid use by yourself, or by Terri or Kaine Horman. Is that correct?
Spicher: Correct, ok.
Stoy: Did they ask you this?
Spicher: Who is they? You got a lot of pronouns flying around (laughs).
Stoy: Fair point, you’re right. The good news is, as English, or should I say proper English is my second language (laughs) I use an copy editor. Allow me to rephrase please. Did anyone in law enforcement at any time ask you about steroids or other illegal injectable supplements sometimes used in weight training or body building in your interviews in this case?
Spicher: Your question was did they [le] ask me anything about steroids or anything injectable ever?
Stoy: (laughs) now who’s throwing around the pronouns?
Spicher: (laughs) touche’ . I was asked about it very vaguely in the beginning, I told them I had never used them, that I did not believe Terri ever did because she and I had similar views against using them and while we were on different supplement regimens when I was training for a marathon in 2008 I still remembered her to be knowledgeable about legal and effective nutritional supplements. I had no reason to believe she had ever used any kind of steroids. I can’t say conclusively she never did but it would shock me.
Stoy: Why shock you?
Spicher: Because a few years back I recall Terri telling me that Kaine was what she referred to as “juicing” and that his behavior had become very aggressive and well, impatient or overeactive with the kids and she had discussed it with him and he ignored her.
Stoy: So for the record, when you say juicing you are referring to illegal steroids, not my Omega specials I make, correct? That was the only question they ever asked you and did not ask any follow up questions like how long ago, etc, etc. And so would you characterize the way law enforcement asked that question and their reaction to your response as disinterested, or having nothing to do with the case?
Spicher: I was never asked about Kaine’s use of steroids by either detectives or the grand jury. But yes, that is what she told me. I actually had forgotten all about it until she refreshed my recollection when I stayed there with her. To the best of my memory I was asked just what I said, I answered as I just said and was never asked any follow up question nor was it mentioned again to me by law enforcement . I don’t think I ever really understood what they did or did not think in terms of my information was important to the case, but yes, they were disinterested from my perspective as to it was the only time I was ever asked about it over the course of three and a half years and so my assumption is they still are. But that is my assumption.
Stoy: Understood, you are referring to the time you stayed at the Horman home late June 2010 through early July 2010 following Kaine’s service of the restraining order and her exclusive use of the home? Spicher: I am not sure about the exclusive use part, I didn’t really know anything about how that sort of thing worked and I think for some reason I want to say Terri was not allowed to show anyone.
Stoy: Ok. Tell me everything you know about that. But, I would like you to see if you can provide me your recollection from what you were told about steroid use PRIOR to your conversations about it that refreshed your memory. By the way, who else knows about this, if you know.
Spicher: Terri’s attorney Stephen Houze.
Stoy: How would you know that?
Spicher: Because I helped her load them up, what appeared to me to be syringes in a box and deliver it to her attorney’s office, she said, at his request. She also located some cancelled checks for what she said was Kaine’s payment for steroids. I don’t remember who they were made out to but it was not to cash.
Stoy: ok, understood, we will get back to that. I want to try and focus on what she told you those “few years back.” Do you recall what year, even ballpark.
Spicher: I want to say, but can’t be sure, it was after her competition in 2005, and I am tempted to say it was around the time they got married or shortly thereafter- I am just not going to be much help in remembering this if you are asking me to extract what I remembered from then on my own.
Stoy: Nope, that’s what I am asking, your fine, I don’t want to lead you but let me ask you a few things that may help. Do you remember where you were during the conversation.
Spicher: I remember it was either the one and only time I ever had lunch with Terri, or it was during a time she called my cell, Terri had a lot of drama, and so I was in a Home & Garden Show class and I recall I was saying things out loud to let he know I was not free to talk really or respond as she was talking, so I was saying things like… I don’t know, we should probably touch base on that when I am done here, or sounds good that we chat on it later.
Stoy: The brush up the other party is not getting, like that?
Spicher: Yes, she was not getting it and so I was kind of 50% paying attention. It was either during that call or at the lunch. Other than that, I am not remembering the timing so well.
Stoy: But you would say a few years before Kyron went missing so based on that 2007 or 2008? Do you remember if they were married at the time?
Spicher: Again, we were friends for a good number of years but not close friends, I almost felt like if she was calling me or talking to me about it she had no other option at the time.
Stoy: Got it. What did she say
Spicher: She said that Kaine had been aggressive with her and impatient with the children and she attributed that to his “juicing”. She confronted him and she felt he did not listen to her. She told me that she then called a detective and turned in Kaine’s seller. The member at the gym, I used to know the name but I really can’t recall because I was in the early morning crowd and this guy was more afternoon, I presume when they were there or they saw him. I had stopped going to the same gym as them ater the first year or two I met them there.
Stoy: So she called a detective to turn in the seller Kaine was buying steroids from? Wasn’t she concerned about the fact that buying them is also illegal and that Kaine could face charges?
SPicher: She told me that she contacted a detective and said she would be willing to turn over information about someone selling steroids but only if she could do so anonymously and without saying who was buying them, etc.
Stoy: So it was your understanding that she was trying to work out a scenario that would stop Kaine’s use without him ever knowing it was her by turning in that person? Sort of like… she gets approval to remain anonymous, she gives the tip and then one day comes home and says… “Hey honey, guess what I heard at the gym.. you better stop that or you could be arrested for it, etc?
Spicher: Yes, something like that. Except and again, we have discussed it at one or both these occasions, but that did not work out. The detective called her again directly and she was upset that there was further contact. From what I recall, I think that was the tone of what she was telling me.
Stoy: Understood, so you are thinking that it may have been why she was sort of wired about it and not hearing you try to go about your day, but insisting and venting like she was upset by it.
Spicher: Yes, I think so.
Stoy: Do you think she could have called you because your Dad was law enforcement and she might need that sort of advice. I don’t think so because she did not ask for any. So then what? Did Kaine find out?
Spicher: I just remember there was some sort of investigation of the guy, and I really don’t know if Kaine ever found out about it or knows to this day. If the seller or anyone was arrested or anything else at the time I do not remember, that was how much I paid attention to it then until Terri reminded me of it.
Stoy: Ok. Now, why is it that Terri was discussing it with you when you were staying at the house with her in your view?
Spicher: Because after the restraining order was served and I guess she realized where Kaine was headed, it was sort of like- if he was going to badmouth her, in her estimation it was false, but anyway, that Kaine had skeletons in his own closet sort of thing. She told her lawyer [Houze] and she said he instructed her to bring the syringes and the cancelled checks to his office. We did.
Stoy: So was Terri saying that Kaine was using steroids behind her back and she found this or that she knew and was having sort of the same reaction as last time, or she just learned once he was out of the home or what? Was she suggesting this to you like it had something to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: I got the impression she did not know, or at least did not know when the last time he was using them was, but it gets fuzzy for me there because it is my belief up until the time the RO was served, in my opinion she would have tried to protect Kaine from le finding out so I don’t know if she told le, but it would surprise me. Terri was always very family centric. She would protect her family unit, and that is why she did the turning in thing, this would seem the same to me until he made those murder for hire allegations.
Stoy: So did you get the impression from her that she thought that her allegation of Kaine’s steroid use had anything to do with Kyron’s disappearance?
Spicher: No, not at all.
Stoy: Nothing like, maybe this happened as some sort of retribution against her for turning someone in previously or against Kaine if they thought he was involved because after all she says he was the one buying it back then?
Spicher: No, she told me she had no idea who was responsible for Kyron’s disappearance or why, and the only possibility she came up with after the fact because of his past behavior and the fact that he showed up at her door demanding $10,000 she had no idea what he was talking about, that it was the landscaper. He was the only person acting like a criminal at the time.
Stoy: Have you ever seen a text of hers involving the custody situation after the fact, after the Rudy Sanchez Estrada “sting” and she called police twice that day/evening that ended with “mark 1 for the FBI.”
Spicher: I may have, if I did I don’t remember it specifically.
Stoy: She specifically said the FBI, who has only ever assisted in this case, and who has no jurisdictional presence in Kyron’s case, I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on that.
Spicher: No, I don’t have any idea what she meant.
Is it possible that illegal steroid use or sales and the recent public outing there was an ongoing Federal Investigation with the emphasis on police and gym members that included persons familiar to the Horman’s contributed to the circumstances involving the disappearance of Kyron Horman?
Has it been excluded by having more law enforcement investigating themselves?
Roid Rumors and Boys In Blue.. Coincidence Or Clue?
It is no secret that Oregon has seen it’s share of corruption allegations in recent years. The very public and very disturbing account of it’s Governor Neil Goldschmidt’s involvement with a 14 year old girl earned Willamette Week’s Nigel Jaquiss a Pulitzer in 2005 for breaking the story a year earlier. As a strong argument for the trickle down effect, Goldschmidt’s former driver Bernie Giusto- who became the Multnomah County Sheriff following the debacle, was forced to resign his position when a State agency declared they would be removing his police certifications due to his lack of “moral fitness” outlined in the now infamous Giusto Report. A former Sheriff, Bob Skipper, was then appointed to take his place, but after two attempts could not pass the required certifications. The current Multnomah Sheriff Dan Staton, who has since won an election, was appointed in his place. Several current MCSO officers assigned to Kyron’s case were interviewed for the Giusto report.
In fact, Bobby O’Donnell was the lead investigator in Kyron’s case for the first 18 months who according to his own words in his interview was the unfortunate subject of an allegation involving his own very messy divorce.
MCSO Sgt Brett Ritchie stated in a police interview that O’Donnell was seen waving a gun and threatening his life [Ritchie] after he began dating O’Donnell’s ex wife. Laura O’Donnell was granted a restraining order against him that later became an agreement between the couple.
The lead investigator in the case of a missing child openly threatened a ranking officer and that incident was never investigated outside of Ritchie being told to stay away from O’Donnell. O’Donnell’s deposition and his motion to quash it are the subject of a hearing scheduled for Friday September 13, 2013.
There is no question the agency tasked with the investigation into the disappearance of Kyron Horman has had several and more recent embarrassing entanglements.
In another investigative piece by the Willamette Week, it exposes the egregious overtime paychecks that members of the prosecutors and investigators assigned to Kyron’s case have received during the early months following Kyron’s disappearance.
It is unclear how Multnomah County ever had jurisdiction in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance. According to the Skyline School’s filed safety and response plan, the Portland Police Bureau is the agency of record.
Multnomah County’s former woes might have paled a bit in comparison if only by the difference a year makes to public memory, to that of their fellow neighboring officers in Canby, located in Clackamas County.
After several investigations into the selling and possible use of anabolic steroids a Canby Police officer, which were repeatedly stalled due to his caption tipping other’s off in the alleged ring , Officer Jason Deason was arrested along with Canby Landscape Supply Owner William Traverso, Brian Casey Paul Jackson were arrested. The investigation was believed to be ongoing and Traverso, Deason and Jackson all cut deals for quick prison stints that shocked fellow officers and the public alike. The specifics of which were sealed by the court. It is now known that the Federal Bureau of Investigation continued to require the ongoing cooperation of it’s criminals turned informants to pursue federal indictments against possible targets in law enforcement and members of the bodybuilding set- to include acquaintances of Kaine and Terri Horman.
Presuming the confirmed allegations are true- is it possible that ‘a few years back’ Terri Horman unwittingly set off a state turned Federal investigation into the buying, using and selling of human growth hormone and anabolic steroids? How could this be connected, if it is, to the timing of Kyron’s disappearance even if she had?
“… Jackson, through a plea deal on state charges in 2009 where he admitted to selling anabolic steroids to Canby police officers in uniform, had been working with the FBI on an ongoing investigation when they confronted him with the knowledge that he was found deceptive on a polygraph designed to indicate if Jackson’s participation was far more extensive then he originally admitted to…”
“…Jackson, with his attorney, began cooperating with federal authorities shortly after his arrest. He identified his source for steroids as Vancouver resident Rainbow “Bo” Wild Keepers, 39, a competitive bodybuilder and photographer. Agents ran Keepers’ name in federal databases and discovered that an Arizona man had tipped off the Drug Enforcement Administration years ago that Keepers was his source of steroids. Keepers was never charged…”
On June 3rd, 2010, approximately 24 hours before Kyron Horman’s disappearance, Jackson was arrested on a Federal warrant following a sealed indictment issued the day before after failing a polygraph and refusing to help the FBI further.
From the Indictment:
Between June 2, 2005 and May 2008, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials B.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
It has since been revealed that the initials BW stand for Bradley Worden. Worden owns a few businesses, all relating to wholesale gym equipment or nutritional products. Worden has never been charged.
Between June 2006 and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute human growth hormone for use in a human, to a person with the initials N.W., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sction 333(e)(l).
The identity of the person with initials NW is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and December 2007,: in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule illcontrolled substances, to a person with the initials G.P., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and
841(b)( 1)(E).
The identity of the person with the initials G.P is unknown.
Between June 2, 2005, and June 2007, in the District of Oregon, BRIAN CASEY PAUL JACKSON, defendant herein, did knowingly and unlawfully distribute anabolic steroids, Schedule III controlled substances, to a person with the initials S.B., whose full name is known to the grand jury, in violation of Title 21, United States Code, Sections 84l(a)(l) and 84l(b)(1)(E).
The initials S.B. refer to Steve Beaudoin, a former work associate of Jackson’s and current Oregon State safety officer.
According to assistant U.S. Attorney Jane Shoemaker, Jackson sold Beaudoin at least 50 pills of the steroid Winstrol, an injectable steroid called Deca Durabolin, Sustanon and, in June 2007, 100 pills of Anavar on one to two occasions. Shoemaker also said Jackson sold Beaudoin $500 worth of human growth hormone. Investigators discovered the sales through witness interviews and Jackson’s computer records, Shoemaker said.
From Buff To Puff
In contrast to Jackson, although Traverso also sold to Deason and other members of law enforcement, William ‘Jake’ Traverso, a former competitive bodybuilder and “Mr. Oregon” cooperated extensively with the FBI by identifying other law enforcement officers he sold steroids to, and got a lenient sentence of 15 days in jail, 30 days home detention and 24 months probation, with no federal charges.
In a letter submitted to a Clackamas County judge Monday, FBI Special Agent Christopher Frazier said that Traverso has discussed his drug distribution activities in detail. “The public safety employees identified by Traverso included law enforcement officers, corrections officers, fire and rescue personnel and university public safety officers,” Frazier wrote, “Several spin-off FBI public corruption investigations were initiated as a result of these allegations, and are ongoing.”
Traverso, Deason and Jackson were cooperating with the Feds simultaneously, and in a very public way. Although Deason had been similarly employed by the Canby Police under Chief Greg Kroeplin, at least one of the raids on Traverso- Deason’s client, was by Deason’s Canby fellow officer James Murphy.
John Hingson, Traverso’s attorney and past commentator on the Horman case, sparred with then ADA Norm Frink as well. Hingson unearthed the report that included Murphy had been demoted following Deason’s arrest and his credibility was called into question. Murphy worked the graveyard shift with Deason. The report also revealed that both Deason and Officer James Murphy, who was one of the few to initiate an investigation into Deason’s steroid abuse, were put at risk when they were scheduled to work side by side as the only two officers on that shift.
“…Hingson obtained a 2009 report written by private detectives the City of Canby had hired to investigate the steroid scandal. Among their findings: Murphy had been demoted from detective to officer for alleged dishonesty…”
Chief GregKroeplin resigned prior to release of a scorching memo outlining the city’s findings they had outsourced properly to two retired Oregon detectives, which would have resulted in his termination.
Murphy, still employed by Canby Police, is apparently looking to renew the agencies stint for bad press.
On October 13, 2011, six months after former Willamette Week journalist James Pitkin featured his Lord of The Flies article outlining Murphy’s internal investigation led to his demotion for dishonestly, he arrested a freelance sports reporter while taking pictures of him exiting the Canby Police Headquarters on duty and entering his personal vehicle.
Andrew Millbrooke filed a Federal lawsuit in 2012 against The City of Canby, Officer James Murphy and his captain Bret Smith for excessive force and wrongful arrest which took place after Murphy used his cruiser to follow Millbrooke who was on foot. In a police report from another officer in the case, Millbrooke tells him he is a freelance journalist trying to expose corruption and drug use by Officer Murphy. The suit is pending. A review of the declarations by both Mr. Smith and Mr. Murphy do not include the details of the investigative report commissioned by The City Of Canby discussing Mr. Murphy’s prior demotion. Mr. Murphy also had a recent court decision regarding improper procedure [See Bonneau].
With pending motions to release the employment files of some Canby police officers to include Murphy, the charges against Traverso were dismissed this past May due the state delaying the case over 23 months.
Traverso, Deason and Jackson are all currently on probation. Traverso is awaiting trial on recent charges involving watermelon theft.
As the Federal Bureau of Investigation is listed as an investigative partner to MCSO in the Kyron Horman investigation, it is their policy not to release files where they are not the lead agency of record or during an ongoing criminal investigation .
Requests for comment from Kaine Horman through his attorney Brett Engel regarding the allegations that he has either purchased or sold illegal steroids have not been returned at the time of this publication.
However, in an article published to include a quote from Kaine Horman it seems that Kaine confirms Ms. Spicher’s assertion that Terri Horman did not use illegal steroids, but rather nutritional supplements and had moved past those very quickly after her bodybuilding competition.
“…Kaine said he noticed a sharp shift in her behavior, saying she became self-centered and short-tempered.
“She’s not eating a lot of food, she’s exercising twice a day, she’s up at 4 o’clock in the morning, she’s not sleeping at night so we get just general irritable behavior towards everyone around her,” he said.
He said she consumed over-the-counter stimulants, such as fat burners, in high doses. In four months between January and April, she shed 62 pounds, dropping from 185 to 123 pounds, he said.
At the end of April, with her muscles bulked up and skin glistening with a bronze tan, she competed in the Emerald Cup bodybuilding competition in Bellevue, Wash…”
S.Christina Stoy, Editor In Chief, www.blinkoncrime.com was able to independently confirm Ms. Spicher’s account of alleged steroid use and ensuing investigation of a gym member as told to her by Terri Horman.
The source, an associate of Terri Horman, DeDe Spicher and Kaine Horman who declined to be identified, went on to say that at the time it was “… really common knowledge who was using steroids and who was selling them…” “… was not aware previously that Terri Horman claimed to have instigated contact with law enforcement to turn in the seller…” The source declined to identify the seller and could not say for certain if he was charged and likely would not away- given the request not to disclose the source’s name on the record.
Reached for comment, Terri Moulton Horman Attorney Stephen Houze declined to comment based on his policy of not speaking publicly when a client has pending legal matters.
A request for comment to Mr. Bunch, Terri Horman’s divorce attorney has not been returned by the time of this publication.
More Questions Than Answers..
Following several hours of interviews with DeDe Spicher, the woman who was not a close friend to Terri Horman but ultimately was the closest to her in the early days of the investigation- are we left with more questions than answers about what could have happened to the little boy whose 11th birthday was 2 days ago?
Spicher concedes that anything she discussed as told to her by Terri Horman in some minor instances may only be verifiable by Horman herself- and she is not talking… Yet.
She also points out that ultimately everything she told me she shared with investigators as far as “truthfulness” was confirmed by a polygraph – to include the question “Was she withholding any information from investigators?”
She was not.
Although limited, Spicher’s accounts in many instances confirm sparse information heard early on from Terri herself. Not the least of which was that although widely criticized for not speaking out publicly, she was told by investigators not to under any circumstances- and when she broached the possibility of retaining counsel was told that she would then be cut off from any information as to the investigation process to find Kyron Horman.
Through Spicher, Horman also confirmed that out of concern for Horman’s “spacieness” which she defined by walking into a room and staring off, not remembering, etc, Terri Horman called his pediatrition Thursday June 3rd and made an appointment for Friday June 11th. His last day of school. Horman also told Spicher that Kyron had wondered off or got lost while in his teacher Ms. Porter’s care once before when following a fellow student out of class.
Initially, prior to learning Kyron had been marked absent not very long after she left the building, that was Horman’s first thought. Those hopes grew into panic with that revelation that he had been missing for hours.
Spicher says Terri was adamant that she never had a sexual relationship with the now infamous landscaper Rudy Sanchez Estrada Spicher agrees that her friend had the propensity to be flirtatious but she never knew her to be sexually promiscuous. Outside of the fact that she says at Kaine’s request to occasionally include an additional female in the bedroom, to which Spicher declined, she was not aware that the Horman’s had a swinger lifestyle.
To her knowledge, there were other women that were asked to participate in a threesome with the couple that did not say no some years ago, but had no current knowledge and she herself was never involved with Horman sexually.
In her take, the addition of a 3rd female was an expression of control on Kaine’s part in the relationship.
Terri explained the landscapers “sexual accosting” , previously reported exclusively by www.blinkoncrime this way:
“… She said she had Kitty on her hip and he came up behind her and was kissing her neck and put his arm around her and when she verbally resisted with concern that Kitty was in her arms he sort of grabbed her and she spun around and broke free…”
Spicher adds that on more than one occasion she tried to bring that up during meetings with DA Norm Frink and investigators. One one occasion, as suggested by her Father, a former Klamath County Marine Officer, at their own expense The Klamath County Sheriff and his first lieutenant had agreed to meet with Frink, Spicher and her father on DeDe’s behalf to sort of provide character backgrounds and family history he felt would be helpful in clearing her.
“… This came up in the first interview I had with Mr Frink and I told him she had made that call. Later in the interview when he was trying to push more of my buttons, he tells me that call never happened (implying Terri had lied to me). I told him okay, that’s what you’re telling me, but I recall it differently (implying he was lying to me right then). He got very angry about that and insisted it was “fact”. I said okay, whatever. Much later, like one of the last times I met with Mr Frink, the Klamath County Sheriff and his 1st Lieutenant flew up on their own dime to meet with Mr Frink & Keith Krafve to see if they could help by offering their opinion of my character, and that it didn’t seem unusual to them at all that I would go help Terri, that it is very consistent with how my family has always been. At that meeting, I retold the story of Rudy sexually accosting Terri (her words), but said I wasn’t sure about the 911 call. That totally infuriated Mr Frink. I told him I was trying to believe him and simply not certain about what I could remember on that point.
The DAs office behaved very strangely toward the Klamath Co Sheriff and his Lt. They tried everything they could to keep us separated and even insisted that they (the DAs office) drive them back to the airport, despite the fine fact that we (Dad & I) had picked them up and brought them in, and would definitely be seeing them again in the near future. It was just weird, to all of us…”
I asked DeDe if she used the term called 911 in every exchange. She had. I asked her if she got the impression that the reason Frink was so sure it never happened was because there was no 911 call on the record about it – could it be that maybe she reached out to that former law enforcement person she contacted on the steroid issue and it was actually a dispatch call versus a trackable 911 call issue.
Spicher says she got the impression that Frink was suggesting that the “accosting” as described by her friend did not happen, but could not be sure except to say that Frink seemed to become irate when she brought it up on every occasion. Spicher felt Sanchez Estrada was the only person behaving like a criminal and that supported the accounts she was given.
I asked DeDe if Terri mentioned ever paying Sanchez Estrada for work at the Horman home. She said she did not recall Terri ever saying anything other than she had no idea what he was talking about when he came to the door and asked for $10,000 so she slammed the door in his face and called 911.
Stoy: So did she think it was some sort of extortion attempt now that she had mentioned him to investigators and they told her that they had interviewed him?
Spicher: She thought that he was dangerous from her past experience.
Stoy: Did you think it was odd that with a brand new John Deere tractor parked outside that TH was hiring a landscaper? I was able to confirm through other sources that he cleared some blackberry or blueberry bushes similar to Ms. Von Klevelen, and the tractor does not have a UCC lien on it, meaning it was not financed.
Spicher: No, it wasn’t. Kaine bought it. It was Terri’s job to manage the inside of the house as well as the entire property. I knew that when Kaine would travel he would come up with this project lists for her to complete by the time he got home. I mean, like cleaning the gutters, cutting the grass, washing all the windows, that sort of thing. To the best of my recollection Terri and Kaine did not have bank accounts together- he controlled everything he made.
Stoy: With a baby, 7 year old and teenager and hubby out of town? How was she managing that? No wonder he was suggesting that she was pouring through money like water or something like that, she was probably hiring help. I am not even sure I think a woman by herself at that property with a baby should be on the roof by herself anyway.
Spicher: No, Terri had to pay any support money or whatever to the household expenses and I have surmised Kaine gave her some sort of allowance which she probably blew through pretty quickly on frivolous things like food and clothes for her children. I have never known Terri to be frivolous with money. I know of at least two times when the projects she was supposed to accomplish were impossible for her to manage. One was the windows so I believe she hired someone that time and as I recall her parents paid for that. I believe the other was the landscaper.
Stoy: Is it a fair question for me to ask how you feel about Kaine, from your tone I am sensing you are not a fan.
Spicher: I have tremendous compassion for Kaine- he lost his child- what can one even say about that? But no, he is not someone I would want to be friends with today and I was cordial to him whenever I was around him but he was very controlling and was pretty mean to Terri about her weight from Kitty, things like that- I am not going to have anything in common with that.
Stoy: Did Terri ever mention anything about conflicts with Desiree Young, whether they were between her and she or Kaine and Desiree?
Spicher: Not that I recall, but I also never heard her speak of Desiree negatively at any time previously or when I stayed with her [Terri].
Stoy: That is saying a lot because right after the sting Ms. Young was pretty accusatory pretty quickly- and I do note that was based on information from law enforcement. Similar to some of the things both she and Kaine said publicly about you. Are you angry about that?
Spicher: O my no. That poor woman is going through hell and acted on information that I was told, lie or not, was given to her and Kaine. I have nothing but compassion for her and I wish I could shoulder some of her pain because I can.. I have nothing but compassion for all of Kyron’s parents and any anger I have over how I was treated, what I went through would never be directed at them. I really pray that Kyron will be found, I choose to put my energy into hope for that.
Pending Matters
Through Attorney Bunch, Terri Horman makes the claim that both law enforcement and Kaine Horman have been perpetrating the dissemination of inaccurate information involving the circumstances of Kyron Horman’s disappearance.
In a recent filing, set for hearing this Friday, Bunch pens a scathing reply to Deputy O’Donnell’s motion to quash, and accuses the county of improper ex parte communication.
Early this afternoon, a source within the Multnomah County Courthouse speaking on the condition of anonymity has confirmed that on behalf of Multnomah County, a motion has been filed to limit certain documents or discoverable information related to Mr. Horman and Bobby O’Donnell of the MCSO.
A hearing is scheduled before Judge Kantor for this Friday September 13, 2013
Jacqueline Beaufort, Ellie Sanders – research and contributing editors to this article.
Jason Mateos- contributing editor, copy.
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Yes, and I worded poorly, but you got me anyway, TY. I meant if the “need” for collateral existed.
erose says:
September 20, 2013 at 5:27 pm
I always assumed the collateral, if it existed, was the big expensive mower.
I think there is a definite void of consideration to make any case for a mfh so if one is tasked with finding same, yes, I agree that the mower would work.
B
Rose says, My guess is it would be a wedding ring.
~~~~~~~~~~~
iirc on T’s Facebook photos she wore no wedding ring, just a man’s band, and her name was not included in ownership of anything. If K wouldn’t want her name on the house, he certainly wouldn’t have put it on the mower.
@Mom3.0 says:
September 20, 2013 at 12:54 am
Part 3-
@VW
Hello I hope you dont mind me sharing a differing perspective on the recent discussion?
VW you wrote:
I totally saw that, ragdoll. That she is in great denial, and has lost ability to be rational. But she has been subject to first her husbands’ and then to LE’s manipulation. Of COURSE she has her own agenda, her own old resentments and her own EGO.
VW I agree with both you and Ragdoll Desiree may not be acting “rationally” and yes she may be in denial about what happened to Kyron
She may have been manipulated by her X husband and she may have been manipulated by LE-but in truth if we go that far- we have to then say desiree may have been manipulated by Terri too, dont we? –
I mean, IF everything is true that has come out since june 4th Terri was hiding her drinking problem along with kaines juicing and involvement with drug dealers and his temper and all the rest.
You went on to write:
Of COURSE she has her own agenda, her own old resentments and her own EGO.
VW,what pray tell is Desirees “agenda”, other than to help bring her Kyron home? as to her own “resentments”,
Well she is only human so sure, I bet she does have a feeling of anger or displeasure about the unfairness of Terris inconsistent retell of june 4 and of learning that as she sat agonizing over the loss of her child, terri was seemingly comfortably sitting on a couch in her own home with her friend eating nutter butters and sexting kaines one time high school buddy MC…
You know Blinks right so is Dr Phil if theyll do it with ya theyll do it to ya…..
Also Desiree probably holds some resentment over learning after the fact of Ky potential seizures and bed wettings and strange worrisome behaviors which terri said constituted a doctors appt immediately… well not really as it was supposedly set for the following week.,…. one week before Kyron was to be sent to leave for an extended period ….
How then could Ky have received follow up care from his doctor?How was Kyrons care going to be followed up urgently then?
And sure I agree I bet there is resentment over the unfairness of the affair while Desiree was pregnant with baby Kyron- an affair with a married man which Terri willfully participated in.
Ego? somehow i do not equate an inflated Ego and Desiree Young together…perhaps thats just me….
You wrote:
But before we jump onto the Desiree as victim and entitled to garner ALL respect, All donations, and All reverence for her SELF-LESS version of the madonna, we MUST look at her rationally.
Rationally? you call the above rational and Not emotional?
Excuse me VW but Desiree is the victim here – just as much as any one other than little Ky himself-and comparing her untiring role as an advocate for Kyron as nothing more than an act to portray herself as a selfless Madonna only looking for reference- well thats very harsh and dare i say mean, as well as IMO exactly the kind of
############################
MOM3,
You are certainly allowed, and should be, to have a different perspective on DY than I do.
You have taken offence at a couple phrases and seem rather upset by them. So i’ll take a minute to clarify.
Everyone has an AGENDA. A plan of action. DY’s agenda is to further place pressure on the step-mother in order to find Kyron, the child Terri Horman raised for five years to the degree that most in her middle and outer circle did not know that Kyron was not her birthchild.
That is her agenda that she states over and over. To Find Kyron….by telling the world that she will never stop pursuing TMH. But when all of the known evidence is pointing away from TMH ….. prolly including her somewhat tight alibi, we have to question if this is the right direction for her to go.
OK…well I, myself question this and have for a long time. I don’t believe those “emails” from LE are emails expressing such “hatred” or now “dislike” that they would warrent killing a child…or a least…handing him off.
I strongly questions DY’s inconsistencies in regard to the GofundMe. She, or her sister, established this site to help with Rosenthall’s bills. Underhill was “over-writing” this suit. He was on the top steps looking down when Rosenthall claimed he would “peel back the mystery…etc”. Do you really think this suit was not taken on a contingency basis? Was there ever an accounting? No.
When the suit ended, the GoFundMe wasn’t taken down. It was turned into a GoFindMe site for searches. Searches that even you must be questioning the basis for. The searchers were volunteers. What were the expenditures?
Does DY need money. Prolly. So does TMH. Is the Fund an intentional attempt to deceive? I can’t say because I am not her accountant.
But I can say that there was no purpose for this Dr. Phil charade other than to draw severe new divisions, to alienate the public and to further the agenda of Houze and Bunch. That the cameras came to Medford suggests that it was NOT an attempt to really bring the bio parents back together to find Kyron. What was it really for?
Answer me this? Did you come away from that interview with a solid picture of KYRON? A progressed view of his face? An idea of who he really might be? Remembering the pleas from BOTH the parents to the public to watch for this little guy who might look like THIS now.
I didn’t. Personally. I came away feeling actually bad for them…for DY too…even though I feel her Ego puts her own need to appear the ONLY ONE grieving first. Otherwise, why does she not wear an age-progressed button? Isn’t she in the spotlight to find Kyron and let everyone know what he might look like?
And say what you will….MCSO and the DA’s office has created this. MIS-led them into crucifying TMH with NO evidence. Underhill and the PPS lawyers are breathing a sigh of relief. Now the DYSFUNCTIONAL family is to blame.
Not Skyline. Not the DA’s office. Not Judge M and others who complied. Not MCSO who did NOT treat this case as abducted child case from the get go and banked on a smear campaign to get their confession.
THis is MY perspective, MOM, and I really am entitled to have it. I think it’s rational based on what I see and read.
And you are entitled to you views, too. Peace.
Ragdoll says:
September 19, 2013 at 10:24 pm
@ @ vw says:
September 18, 2013 at 10:20 pm
i don’t know why my comment didn’t post (above), but thank you for your insight. You are right about my reference to everyone being fine. That was in poor taste, now that I read it. I don’t believe in apologies with excuses. I know what my reasons were for putting it that way, at the time. It’s not important, now. I was out of line with that statement. Thank you for honesty, and I apologize to all I have offended, by that comment. xo
xxoo
You’re welcome. And I just wish that something tangible will come out of depositions of Ms. Matthews, Porter, and all the others that are being revisited. The more the public knows the more they can help. You never know. Kyron could be ten miles from here.
@Blink. Wasn’t mower in KH’s name, bought clear of credit?
I thought that was odd.
I dunno that it needs a license if it is solely for home and non-commercial use, I would have to research that. It was purchased without a UCC lien or financing but I don’t think it gets “titled” so to speak.
It would be considered a marital asset.
B
@erose. without watching it again, I agree yours is the accurate description, now that you remind me.
@grasshopper. DA staff have no duty to represent KH wrt criminal procedures & protections
in the divorce trial, like say perjury & when to take the 5th as DDS did in her civil suit, lest his testimony conflict with his GJ testimony for one thing. He also shoukd’ve had one present for all those mcso interviews.
And, if he had, he wouldn’t be in this Sting pickle.
T. Ruth says:
September 20, 2013 at 2:19 pm
Sorry, meant to say cheating on her, not “him”. Busy shoveling rock today and had to get it done before the rains came.
@Rose
“I would have left my truck prominantly parked while I volunteered as usual during the Sci Fair, touring with another group than Kyron’s or working the Porter room as receptionist. Before Porter regrouped at 10 for attendance, I’d be off shelving books in the library, or helping cafeteria ladies. Anything to be seen volunteering at school, by anyone but Porter. And then at 10:15 I’d go get that coffee at Meyers. I would’ve gotten Kiara a sitter, telling Kaine it was an important volunteer morning. So either Teri foolishly followed SZ’s prescription for her, or she can’t plan at all.”
We are PRESUMING LE talked to Matthews. Poly? I’ve heard they were very intimidating with parents. Teachers, too? As in……”You say one word of this to the public you will be implicating the school and yourself.” ????
Does anyone have any idea what happened to her? I suppose, like with Dede, the story is going to come out.
I just can’t imagine her pain and guilt. Porter is harder to figure.
Both have had representation toot sweet.
B
I can see DA/MCSO telling bios in June 2010,
you get criminal attorney advisors, we’ll stop
sharing information with you. The 2 should’ve blown
threats off.
I personally expect Matthews to claim a hazy memory after the passage of time.
Did she go to grand jury in 2010? Is so, the 5th would work.
Tractors have “Bill of Sales” with serial number, model number, brand name with seller & buyer names and signatures. This is what the insurance company needs. No titles, licenses or registrations. Filing a copy with clerk of court is optional if paying cash and not always recorded even if financed with a lien.
I think you mean if not financed with a lien?
Yes, it requires a rider.
B
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/08/kyron_horman_divorce_case_cast.html
Worth a read…old article where law professionals not related to this case weigh in on the risks of LE allowing information to be leaked through Bios.
What they predicted 3 years ago Houze will do (and the Judge) is exactly right.
Prayers for Kyron and his family.
When thinking about what Teri had to pay, I expect her legal settlement was about gone.
IIRC from the time she moved in with Kaine to 2010, she had to pay him a monthly fee
from it for room & board.
When he met Teri, it seems not only was Desiree not earning,
she had significant medical expenses.
Then he meets a lady who has a nest egg. But nest egg is gone.
And James, the source of was it $500 month (?) was gone. So he’s out
maybe $1,000/mo & has a new baby to support. If Teri leaves, there goes child
support. So, he’s down maybe $1500/mo & out some assets. Plus if Kyron goes
to Desiree, there’s $500 to her too. So if he was thinking
divorce right then, he likely did have a #3 in the wings with a good Intel income.
I suspect Kaine & Teri had discussed James’ move previously, and Kaine said No.
So he had to move in Kaine’s absence.
——-
The abduction issues are:
targeted, or not
location
timing
motive
On the timing, imo Kaine had a financial motive.
Her financial motive existed if deceased were Kaine, not Kyron.
BTW, was Kyron insured? If so, who was the beneficiary?
Thx for correction. ..I meant not financed.
To all thanks for sharing your thoughts with me I hope to respond in kind soon-
First to our kind Host Blink-
Blink Says:
Just a note to Mom3.0, I am content to let y’all converse without my input but it was interesting to see my words come back, lol, I appreciate that very much as I barely have time to write them as it is, and never have time to look back.
xoxoxo
B
—
Xoxox Back Blinky and i always learn alot from your words, as I remember on The Morgan threads more than once- one of your past “in bolds” spurred further helpful dialog and kept us all from getting stuck in a set thought/theory…
I really am trying to get a better perspective on the progression of thoughts/theories in this case- and traveling back thru the archives of each article/post/in bold is helping me to do that.
Interesting enough I stumbled upon one of Lizzys past posts that articulates the point much better:
lizzy says:
July 13, 2010 at 2:58 pm
Blink, As an avid student of your teaching blog, I obtain much information from your articles, but often find your responses to the posts and questions of others to be the most educational. Much as it is in a classroom, imo.
On this disheartening case of the missing Kyron, I felt that you had made one of the biggest leaps of belief that I had seen from you. So I went back to the threads to see when that change had occurred. What I found was that while your thinking had evolved, that the process was very gradual, and really a no point contradictory. Just a slow honing towards the solution.
end snip
Very astute- in her thoughts- and I feel much the same now as I travel back thru the archives looking to connect the dots in your thoughts as well as others…
You went on to write:
Mom 3.0, thanks for your patience in getting all your posts up, I wanted to read them in total and I am in a major time crunch through the weekend. I think I have been pretty succinct in my thoughts as they relate to your posts, (in some cases I got to read them again, lol)
No problem & Thank you so much Blink for taking the time I very much appreciate it
You wrote:
but it occurs to me that I want to address the issue of DY and what she is being told by LE.
I do blame them [LE] for more than a few snafu’s and overall I think their work to date on this case, based on very inside information both published and non, is abysmal.
Blink I so hear your strife over feeling this way and having to share it with the world – I know how much you respect and champion the officers in Blue so I do understand the angst.
Blinky, if i may-can i remind you of something you may have forgotten? You didnt always feel this way about LE in this case.
You once wrote:
Angie says:
June 23, 2010 at 11:31 pm
Witnesses who claim to have seen Kyron are being ignored by Police:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/investigators_in_kyr
on_horman.html
Let me say this-
I am a fan of this MCSO. From Dan Staton to Jason Gates and his team,
they have done everything right in my eyes.
I have studied his election campaign, and his career, and this guy is a cops
cop and a people’s sheriff. This community is lucky to have him.
That said, I also understand people’s frustration that their information is
validated.
I am asking that folks put this Investigative team in a position of faith and
trust, above your need to know. This is about Kyron, not us.
B
MackiezMom says:
July 10, 2010 at 1:34 am
I process serve from time to time. Nothing exciting, like the “You Got
Served” show, or anything. During the course of that work, I have often
served ROs and kick-out orders, together.
Can anyone think of plausible reason for Kaine not asking for a kick-out
order to be issued at the same time as the RO? I mean..is it something with
Oregon law? Were they just moving quickly, and did not think about the
kick-out? Or maybe he was unsure of whether he wanted to stay there? I
can understand the latter, if that is the case. It’s tough to go back to the
place one was when something bad happened to one’s child. Anyone have
insight on this issue?
I understand that he left in a bit of a hurry, but once the RO was issued, if
a kick-out had been issued at the same time, and executed by officers,
then he and Kiara could have returned to their home immediately. When a
kick-out is executed, the officers stand by, while the respondent removes
their belongings and their person.
Yes, I can. It was necessary to keep her there because the house is
bugged and I believe strongly they felt an arrest was going to ensue at the
“the sting”. Flub or not, I applaud them for trying. They put Kyron first,
imo.
B
Charlotte says:
July 6, 2010 at 9:46 am
Wow, is this saying that there was a SECOND LS solicited?
Meanwhile, a landscaper recently hired by the Hormans said he was contacted by detectives and cooperated with the investigation. Police have confirmed a report that Terri Horman tried to pay another as yet unnamed landscaper to kill her husband, Kaine Horman, in 2009.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/97845894.html
Yep. I would say we have our third unsub.
Shout out to LE- well played.
B
twinkletoes says:
July 23, 2010 at 4:56 pm
And since I am already unpopular today . . . What if Terri and Dede aren’t talking because they have already told all they know and there is nothing more to tell? What if what Terri and DeDe are talking but not saying what LE wants to hear?
And remember, ladies and gentlemen, the MFH is an allegation–we have nothing but the word of hitman/weed puller. And no arrest. For me, that speaks volumes. Last time I checked, conspiracy to murder is pretty serious criminal offense. If LE isn’t sure on this allegation, how can we be?
Twinkle is right to question it. Frankly, I am not sure I would personally publish an accusation like that and I have the damn first amendment on my side, lol.
However, I do believe there is substantial good faith basis for the family to say what they did or LE would ask them not to.
Actually, LE is using the media in the best possible way in this case, imo.
B
—
So see Blink you havent always felt so down on LE- its true that much info has gone under the bridge since then…. all the more reason to think- who knows what will turn the tide perhaps with further info or insight you may come again to champion LE in this case.
You went on to write:
I can tell you that sitting in class all week as the only non-LE professional amongst my peers that the investigative community I discussed this case with is horrified at the “guilt by association” factor in simply sharing the same profession
Blink, every one has opinions and if smart these opinions are not firm, but can change with better intel etc. Dont give up yet
But yes right now it seems as if LE may have shown their hand too soon, and may have gotten caught up in a theory- and its true they may have utilized info and the family wrongly. IDk I am not privy to the insider info that you may have- but I would think that LE no matter what IS trying desperately to bring little Ky home, and they are trying desperately to get the BG- THEY are laying their reps/asses on the line everyday-
Have they made mistakes yes most definitely -insurmountable mistakes? God I hope not
You wrote:
Have they been put in a position to fail based upon the individual and collective inexperience in handling an abduction case?
Probably. I am so far past that mattering to me I can’t see straight. What I am is frightened.
Sigh Scared?
Me too Blink me too
You;
While I don’t think it advisable for DY to even be associated with the Hater Crater, let alone posting on it, and I can tell you that more than a few posts I have seen contained misinformation.
Blink- JFTR I have never been to the hater crater what I read I read here- I thought we were discussing the comment sections of the news sights in my posts on the last thread….-
But yeah i get your point Blink although I cant comment directly as I am at a disadvantage here not having read them…other than to say I have had a very bad experience with a FB group and I can attest to just how easy it is to be drug down into a bubbling cauldron-
I can see how a distraught, mother of a missing child who is in the midst of an emotional overload could be pulled into the fray as well yep quite easily… And I can certainly see how something that once started of with the best of intentions with no malice- can be turned into something very ugly very quick once a few bad apples get into the bunch Oh how the worms of hatred and gossip start a moving……Look what happened to the Morgan Harrington FB pages ya know?
You and I and everyone have written something we wish we hadnt- even if it was our “truth” at the time, some things are just better left not said… it seems that since Desirees posts have disappeared perhaps like us all, after rethinking her words she had posters remorse? or perhaps not everyone in the group is a worm who wishes only to leach on to her pain to make themselves special?
You wrote of the accuracy of her words;
How she came by it, I can’t verify, but considering she herself alleged “lying to the media” to inflict distress was perpetrated on her- I do think she has an obligation to *not* do that to someone else.
Blink, I dont know who her insiders are any more than I know yours other than De De…but yeah sometimes people get things wrong sometimes on purpose and sometimes not and yes we should all live by the Golden rule but as humans we falter- and then hopefully with time and retrospect we make amends
i cant say what the deal is in Desirees case- except again she is standing naked in the middle of the street doing what she feels is in the best interest of bringing Ky home- and I for one will not gawk at her – i will not shame her and i will not lend my voice taunting her to more extremes-
I will however be here to offer her my support especially at that moment we all know will come when she realizes that letting it all hang out isnt necessarily helping anyone let alone Ky.
You wrote;
I think it was very irresponsible on her part to allow her lawyer to say, and notice I am using the word say and not suggest, that the reason the suit was withdrawn was because DeDe Spicher testified before the grand jury. In a word, that was just lame.
But Blink- what if that IS why she let the suit be dropped or at least part of the reason- would you still consider the answer to be lame?
i mean perhaps all she ever wanted is for someone anyone to nail down the timeline – to tell in their own words what happened in those days-under oath- whether it be De De or Terri-
IDK the truth Blink but
what I do know above all else is IF God forbid I lost my child and someone was protecting their rights over the sharing info with LE which led me to think they were hindering my baby coming home safely…I would be Fit to be tied-
and dare i say a burning ember of hate would start to grow as the deafening silence continued- In essence Blink I would go crazy with grief and i would just want to shake the people who were remaining silent until they said something anything— because after awhile even that small sound of gasping for breath would be considered a win amidst hours days months and years of dead silence….
You wrote
She is a victim, and she is a pawn and I will continue to pray for her.
B
yes she is- and my prayers ring out also
peace to you my dear friend
Mom3.0
Mom 3.0-
It is my obligation professionally to give LE the benefit of the doubt, and I daresay considering the fact that LE is a position of public trust- everyone’s.
It is painful for me to say how I feel about their work in this case because I HAVE worked with some of the best. I am not going to change that outlook. The investigation is contradictory to protocol and experience in similar investigations. It just is. No surprises. This is going to end badly for LE.
B
The best part of this Blinkoncrime is everyone can write a different look at things
The only thing that actually got my attention on the Dr Fill show was about Kyrons eye sight
For some reason I always get interested on that one
I can’t help but feel the show was edited to the point that it was just not saying much about Kyron
I would have enjoyed more parent Stories about Kyron
All right you two, you’re over my head here. Can you ‘splain?
Rose says:
September 18, 2013 at 9:58 pm
@ Blink. How did you get so smart?
You are Absolutely Right!!!
Houze MUST stay away from any evals, home studies, or custody input
involving cpsd, dhs, or any County entity getting
mud on face from that biracial case where Svetsky sat on the agency.
Quinoa
B
In regards to the description Kyron’s actions when the man asked Ms. Matthews for permission to allow him to help him carry things into the school – would it be that he was excited to be chosen to help????
And, those who saw him near a white pickup, I think there is more information not being disclosed. What exactly does near mean? Was the tailgate down? Were the doors open?
Did anyone see Kyron after seeing him near this white pickup truck?
Lincoln. Countywide roll up of all SO’s: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2013/09/lincoln_countys_most_wanted_na.html#incart_river
To clarify my too muddy thoughts on Kaine, while I do not believe him directly connected to the abduction, he did have financial motive, timing wise to the abduction, to shed Teri like a snake’s skin, because she could no longer contribute money via James or herself and as he put it, spent his money freely. And, he as easily as Teri had apparent vampire connections.
Kaine has spoken many times about LE coming back to him again & again to debrief him & gather more information. We know from the show he says they did not disclose to him the June 3 fight email, or the hatred emails where Teri said she’d informed Kaine of same. It is strange they disclosed enough to him to substantiate the RO, but not a little thing like hatred emails behind it, or a plan to leave him.
However, on the show he said they had shown him many emails. And in the many emails were events or things that never happened. Imo they showed him emails that were not about Teri’s misdeeds, but were her statements about his. ie, she wrote you knocked her around. Kaine: that never happened. She wrote you did x, y, or z. Kaine: that never happened.
Why would MCSO be so miffed at DY for disclosing Terri’s hatred emails that they’d cut her off from future details?
The 2 people they didn’t want to know about those emails: Houze & Kaine (because they didn’t show him) because they didn’t want them litigated in the divorce, by Engel.
Timing wise, the other major thing going on in the Horman family was Kristian’s impending guilty plea, statement, & sentencing, about 10 days out, and known about for a year, for a child sex offense that occurred on a female teen but with an infant male also in the bed per prosecutor. Kristian must have been under stress for the preceding year as he awaited his fate.
On the program DY’s anger was partly I expressed concern about Kyron for a year and you didn’t pay attention. (Imo Kyron’s behavior was as likely related to a new demanding young princess’ birth and James’ departure.) We know Teri was concerned about Kyron’s behaviors to the extent she made a dr’s appointment, which KH did not see the need for. So if he didn’t pay attention to Desiree and Teri wrt Kyron, was there anything else he didn’t pay attention to wrt Kyron?
TY for the article Southernmom: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/08/kyron_horman_divorce_case_cast.html
The key, why “the system” needed to put this non-Family Court Judge in place, is in the 3rd
from last paragraph. Imo DY’s civil suit could’ve been encouraged to be filed
for no other purpose than Judge shopping. It was that important imo.
nate0419 says:
September 19, 2013 at 2:08 pm
1. Shelly says:
September 18, 2013 at 2:02 pm
Snipped:
And why didn’t he confide in her before Ky went missing that Ky would cry and not want to go to her house?
**************
I think this is a really good question. IF, if it’s true that Kyron did not want to go to Desiree’s home, why would Kaine wait until now to say that? IIRC the Phil show accurately, he said “many, many times”, Kyron would cry during the drives that he didn’t want to go, and then said to Desiree “I never told you that before”.
The conversation from Kaine previously when the bio parents talked about this was very casual, saying it was nothing but a child’s adjusting between the two homes. Now, suddenly it sounds much more important to Mr. Horman.
I wonder if he felt that saying this before would put his estranged wife in a good light, when he was trying to vilify her? IDK, just curious.
I hope these family members aren’t keeping other information from one another regarding Kyron’s behavior that might lead detectives to solving this case.
So how does Dr. Phil select his guests? Do they call him and ask to be on the show or does he call them and ask if they’d like to be on the show, or does it work both ways? It would be interesting to know who made the contact.
Like I said before I even watched the show, IMO, the show as about the relationship between Desiree Young and her 11+ year ex-husband, Kaine Horman. I agree with those of you who said it is unfortunate the show wasn’t more about Kyron as for instance, the different behaviors we now have verified by Desiree, that Kyron had been displaying for a year before he went missing. So we have two mothers, Terri & Desiree, now saying there was something wrong with Kyron’s behavior. (We also have a teacher who is handing out the wrong colored cards, indicating behavior problems.) Kaine even at one point said he attributed Kyron’s spaciness to Kiara’s teeth or earache, or both, I forget which. So here three parents who now, in hindsight say something was bothering that child…..and Desiree says for a year.
Isn’t this the most important clue? I mean let’s say Kyron was a missing teenager, wouldn’t the police look at his or her past behavior to try to determine what may have caused it, to see if it leads to what may have happened? I am wondering if these parents withheld this information from LE, because they were all so busy blaming Terri. I hope not.
Another thing about that interview that Kaine avoided was that issue.
I believe they were discussing Kyron’s behavioral changes and whether Kaine had seen any of the red flags *Kyron* was sending out that Desiree was referring to.
When asked by Dr. Phil if he’d missed those, Kaine says something about the economy and paying attention to his children, but not investigating his wife on a daily basis. I went wth? Maybe I misunderstood it, and would have to re-watch it, but I think that’s what they were discussing. Not Terri, but Kyron’s change in behavior.
Btw, to clarify my thinking that Tony Young should have been next to his wife in another chair. I do not think that show was not about the case, as much as it was about relationships and Kyron’s split family.
I’ve long said, Tony Young should never have publicly offered his law enforcement opinions (mental impressions) on the case as he has. (“If not Terri, then who?”) I just think since this was about relationships and bringing Kaine & Desiree to a untied front and particularly, the show seemed to revolve around Desiree’s well-being, so IMO, then Tony Young should have been there with her, he is her husband and part of that split family. Maybe he could have offered some insight into Kyron’s behavior as well.
Oh well, JMO and all that.
I could be all wet, but when LE released the alleged sexts between Cook & Terri, did not a source say they had similar communication between the landscaper and TMH? (In fact, I seem to recall Kaine Horman answering a reporter’s question, saying that’s *one of the ways* Terri was manipulating people.)
I always thought the *collateral* LE and Kaine Horman were referring to was sexual favors.
The sting asking for $10k was “hush money”, to keep the landscaper from going to the police with the information that Terri tried to get him to off Kaine.
That’s the way I always thought they had set up the sting anyway.
Legaleeze question. When I read the recent order, it was my understanding that Houze/Bunch can continue their investigation and depose PPS employees, but…..they cannot ask them the questions any of them may have been asked by the GJ? Did I read that right?
@Rose
I pretty much agree with your # 13 post and things have been hard in Oregon as far as jobs and money
One reason I find it hard to believe Kaine was having a lot affairs no one outside of the family has ever said
He was chasing women all over the place but looking for another income that makes sense I can see that
Or someone with a nest egg
And it is not all that usual
Unusual is the right word
@Rose ll:43
Odd. Thinking bout that yesterday. Or along those lines. Looked back. Maxine’s July 4th, 2010 bombshell…states then LE disclosed the MFH to DY and TY. Texting story….LE shared the sexting with DY and TY. But in subsequent interview with dateline? DY states when asked what she thought about it only….”Well. it speaks to her character…” But it was a brush off…obious, to me, that she didn’t know any REAL details that would prove the MFH. Otherwise…she’d be using it all the time when Phil-types ask her why she thinks TMH is involved. On the other hand we have Kaine not knowing what the “emails” contain.
LE has dribbled selective info to each, IMO, in the hope of multiplying the levels of media/public suspician and yet being able to keep the “real” evidence or non-evidence close to the vest.
What is the purpose of divide and conquer? Ask your grown kids. They remember. LOL
And kids at the time don’t think of what it’s doing to the marriage. Just what they want right then.
IMO they, and not the divorces, scandals, affairs, money issues are the real cause of this separation between the bios. LE had nothing vested in making sure the two got the counselling and support to be a real team.
And of course if the two of them REALLY got together and figured out as much as they could, putting the past behind them….where could it lead? A suit. A big one. And not one against TMH.
Because to make this work they had to connect the SZ to tmh when sharing the info with the parents.
Remember the interview in which DY chides Kaine for mentioning a “person” outside with Kyron?
Is that interview still around. It’s prolly here somewhere. Blink needs an research library here connecting all the details. Eags on Olive once told me she has files and spreadsheets and a whole file cabinet as well as locked files on this case. Whew!
Back to the research. After some family visiting in Eugene. Should go all the way down to Ashford to talk to eagles.
But wouldn’t have the faintest idea where that nest was.
Have a good day, all.
Malty says:
September 21, 2013 at 2:41 am
The best part of this Blinkoncrime is everyone can write a different look at things
The only thing that actually got my attention on the Dr Fill show was about Kyrons eye sight
For some reason I always get interested on that one
I can’t help but feel the show was edited to the point that it was just not saying much about Kyron
I would have enjoyed more parent Stories about Kyron
Hi Malty!
ITA. Blink is very tolerant of different looks on things.
Speaking of seeing…LOL…thought about it later. Could it have been
that he didn’t have his glasses on at the pharmacy? And outside?
Kyron was on the soccer team. Swim lessons.
vw says:
September 20, 2013 at 11:12 pm
@Rose
“I would have left my truck prominantly parked while I volunteered as usual during the Sci Fair, touring with another group than Kyron’s or working the Porter room as receptionist. Before Porter regrouped at 10 for attendance, I’d be off shelving books in the library, or helping cafeteria ladies. Anything to be seen volunteering at school, by anyone but Porter. And then at 10:15 I’d go get that coffee at Meyers. I would’ve gotten Kiara a sitter, telling Kaine it was an important volunteer morning. So either Teri foolishly followed SZ’s prescription for her, or she can’t plan at all.”
We are PRESUMING LE talked to Matthews. Poly? I’ve heard they were very intimidating with parents. Teachers, too? As in……”You say one word of this to the public you will be implicating the school and yourself.” ????
Does anyone have any idea what happened to her? I suppose, like with Dede, the story is going to come out.
I just can’t imagine her pain and guilt. Porter is harder to figure.
……..Both have had representation toot sweet .B
Blink. …… Yes, of course. But what would happen if she, like many other ultra honest teachers I know, really wanted to tell the truth when asked?
If she’s refused interviews, etc. all this time, she might not have been yet put into a position of telling what actually happened? And if she did tell the “truth” to the GJ could that be one of the reasons they would not give Fink/Shrunk their indictment?
Have I asked you guys this before? The memo that Kaine Horman put out to his Intel co-workers on June 6, was released by this law firm shortly thereafter:
http://ackerlaw.com/attorneys-staff/
JMO, but I don’t think Kaine Horman wanted that email to be made public. After all, he’s asking his co-workers not to talk with the media. So, who are these guys who released the email to the public, how did they get the copy, and why did they decide to make it public?
Just another puzzle that sticks in the back of my brain. Did they work for Intel? Did someone from Intel give it to them, thinking it was as odd as we did? The WS page also has a discussion on kidnapping insurance and whether or not Intel provided such, someone up thread had mentioned.
June 10, 2010, Websleuth discussion:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5274636
It may be nothing, but I’d like to know who was behind making this public information. Intel attorneys? Intel employee? LE? Terri?
From Dr. Phil show, my transcribing:
Speaking about her search over labor day weekend:
Desiree: “I received a request that they would like to search Kaine’s property.”
Kaine told Mark Klass, ‘there’s no way in hell your stepping one foot on my property’.
Kaine: “I have not allowed a private search of my property. The sheriff’s office has searched my property probably a dozen times. They have an open invitation to come search my property any time they feel it’s necessary, so I don’t feel that having private parties on my property is warranted.”
Desiree: “Even if Kaine has nothing to hide, his actions in telling people not to search his property, are suspicious.”
http://drphil.com/shows/show/2069/
Well, here’s one instance where I actually agree with Kaine. I wouldn’t let any of them on my property either, just LE. Now, Desiree Young, being the wife of a police officer, one would think she would think the same way, no? One would think she would understand that if they (her group) did find anything there, it could be construed as planted evidence. Nope, she says it is suspicious that Kaine will not let them search. WTH?
She thinks Kyron is alive, what is she looking for there? Does she think Kaine has Kyron hidden on his property? Will they find evidence of Terri having being there? Of course. This is just weird,
Btw, while I’m reviewing the show, does anyone know if DY & TY’s electronics were searched? Phone calls, computers, etc. I’m assuming Kaine’s were? I don’t recall ever hearing they were.
http://drphil.com/shows/show/2069/
I know I mentioned here awhile back about the HBO series The Killing. Have been watching it on Netflix since my daughter-in-law recommended it. Midway through Season 2, and the episode shows the candidate for Seattle mayor meeting with the city council—the chamber is empty, and the camera pans the room, showing the name placards–and one is named Desiree Young. Had to chuckle—a real Northwest connection. Now I wonder—will the show’s producer take on a Horman storyline in a future season?
I am an AVID watcher of THE KILLING series- I must have missed that at the time.
This last season may be the best based on profile- dont want to spoil.
B
Dr. Phil is asking both Kaine & Desiree if they think Kyron may still be alive, and Desiree says she “really hopes so”. Kaine says:
“I believe he’s alive. I, uh, I think through the investigation and the progress they’ve made, and the searches that **we’ve** done, um **they haven’t turned up anything**. And until, as they do that, let’s say process of elimination, um, that scenario continues to become more and more likely. It starts out as a very narrow percentage and it continues to grow in likelihood, I’ve believed it from the beginning and I still do.”
http://drphil.com/shows/show/2069/
So, I take this as Kaine saying he’s been in on the results of the searches and they’ve turned up nothing. Interesting.
**************
Dr. Phil asks Desiree what prompted the recent search?
Desiree: “Recent movement in the case; information that I have, um, based on Terri’s friend, uh, Dede Spicher. We searched approximately 15 different areas in the Skyline community: uh, specific revenes, firelane roads, uh, ****that eyewitnesses place Terri the vicinity of****, and things like that.”
**************
So, since Desiree Young is searching the same places that have already been searched, can we assume that LE has eyewitnesses that said they saw Terri at all these 15 different these locations? How can Terri be in 15 different locations during her 1 hr and a half, unaccounted for timeline on June 4? Here a Terri, there a Terri, everywhere a Terri look-alike? (okay, don’t get me on that tune again.) Or maybe what she meant was 15 different locations where people reported seeing a white F250 pickup, none of which may have belonged to the Hormans? Just thinking out loud.
Talking about the emails Desiree says she’s seen where Terri said she disliked, then Dr. Phil used the word hated, Kyron.
Dr. Phil asks Kaine if he knew about this, the reported emails that said Terri hated your son?
Kaine: “Yeah, the discussion with the piece right there, it was indicated that I had knowledge of this, which I did not.”
Dr. Phil: “That’s why I’m asking.”
Kaine: “Yeah, no, not at all. I haven’t seen any emails so, I, hearing that, that’s a little bit of shock to me.”
Dr. Phil: “So this is news to you?”
Kaine: “That I knew that she hated my son? Yes, I did not know that.”
http://drphil.com/shows/show/2069/
Kinda, weird how Kaine tends to answer questions, yes before he says no. I think he really means to be saying “right” instead of yes, or “correct”. Makes his speech pattern a little confusing.
I know we’ve seen these figures before, but in light of our ongoing discussion of the incompetent investigation of Kyron’s disappearance, MCSD was very effective in getting money.
Public payroll records show several MCSO employees working on the Kyron Horman case earned five-figures in overtime in the month of June alone, on top of six-figure compensation packages.
The following is a list of employee OVERTIME COSTS, which includes earnings, salary-related fringe and insurance, for June 4 through June 30, 2010
Sgt. Diana Olsen – $17, 390.00
Deputy Lee Gosson – $16,966.00
Deputy Kevin Jones – $15,784.50
Deputy Joshua Zwick – $14,949.50
Deputy Bobby O’Donnell – $14,035.00
Deputy Jonathan Zwick – $13,144.50
Deputy Sean Mallory – $11,263.00
Deputy Daniel Rendon – $10,930.00
Deputy Lars Snitker – $10, 190.00
Deputy Matthew Ferguson – $10,155.50
Deputy Timothy Wonacott – $10,013.00
But the grand prize for overtime in June 2010 goes to Sgt. Jan Kubic, who was paid $18,164.50 in total OVERTIME compensation for the month, ON TOP OF A TOTAL ANNUAL COMPENSATION PACKAGE of $146,842.
These staggering numbers for June alone only list those earning more than $10,000 in overtime for the month of June 2010. The TOTAL KYROON HORMAN OVERTIME COSTS TO TAXPAYERS FOR JUNE ALONE WAS $335,908.98. And these figures are ONLY FOR THE SHERIFF’S OFFICE – they do not include the district attorney or other federal, state and local agencies who contributed resources to the search for Kyron.
Okay, I screwed up in my post above where I said Kaine was skirting the issue about Kyron’s changes in behavior the year before. The conversation started out talking about changes in Kyron (at least that’s what I thought Desiree was talking about) and Dr. Phil switched it over to whether or not Kaine missed red flags about Terri’s behavior with Kyron:
Here it is:
Dr. Phil asks why they have not spoken in three years, directed to Desiree, he asks:
Dr. Phil: “Do you blame him for this? Do you think he should have seen something?”
Desiree: “Ahhhh, I don’t blame Kaine for Kyron’s disappearance. I want to make wanta’ make that very clear. However, the things that I have a hard time with, is the fact that, I feel like things were happening in the year prior to Kyron going missing that I was bringing attention to, and….I don’t know if you were busy with your life, or what was going on, but it was just ignored. And I feel like, in that, we failed Kyron. We didn’t protect him.”
Kaine: “That’s interesting. A lot of the dialogue was more between you and Terri than you and I. She made deliberate attempts to put herself in the middle of the communications. (raises his voice a bit) So your emails, I never saw your emails. Her and I never spoke about them. I didn’t even know about it.”
Dr. Phil: “Okay, I’m glad that’s coming out, here today. And I want to be clear, that right now Terri is not suspect, she’s not a person of interest (Desiree starts to say something here, and Phil cuts her off, she shakes her head no a little and puts her head down) as far as the police are concerned.” “She hasn’t been charged with anything and you (looking to Desiree) have said you do not believe that Kaine has hurt ya’lls son in anyway. You (to Desiree) do have angst that he couldn’t see, he may not have read the emails, but (looking at Kaine now)
“Did Terri hide this from you, did you ever see her being annoyed with him, short with him, neglectful of him? Looking back, did you miss things?
Kaine: “I think absolutely, I did. I think at the time the economy was going in a really bad direction for all of us. I was focused on work, I was focused all of sudden we had a daugh…a new daughter that wasn’t expected. We had a lot of things that were happening in life, and I spent a lot of my time focused on my kids and focused on my job and I did not focus on her and I definitely should have spent more time, but I’ve also, in hindsight, all the discussions I’ve had with other people, most normal people on investigating their spouse on a day to day basis”.
***********
So, yes, I thought Desiree was talking about things she’d seen in Kyron. I mean, why would she send an email to Terri if she was complaining about Terri? This is making no sense to me.
http://drphil.com/shows/show/2069/
I guess for those who didn’t see the show, or can’t I should point out that some of these are clips where Kaine is not present, I believe filmed in Medford at Desiree’s home.
Okay, now she’s talking about the behavior of Kyron again, and it’s a clip from Medford, sans Kaine:
Desiree: “A year before Kyron went missing, we started seeing a lot of behavior…that indicated something was wrong. I started seeing him wetting the bed again at night. When he was up at his Dad’s and his Dad was not there, Terri would call me. Kyron would be crying and she would want me to come and get him.”
This is interrupted by a segment by Kaine (no Desiree)(which I could be wrong, but I think is older tape) saying:
“Sometimes he didn’t want to go to Mom’s, sometimes he wanted to go back. I think it was just typical for a child his age making transitions between homes, so there was never a huge meltdown.”
Back to Desiree’s current Medford interview:
“Kyron would say to me, ‘I don’t want to go back, I want to stay here and live with you’”. “He was so upset, he didn’t even want to get in the car. I told my husband, I’m going to break the law, I’m keeping my ***kids*** here, because there’s something going on, and I feel it. And of course, my husband had to talk me down, it’s illegal, you’ll get arrested, and Kaine had to tell Kyron he had to go back. Terri had a conversation with me, asking me if could take custody of Kyron. And I told her… that I WANT, custody of my **kids**, but Kaine assured me, it is not an option.”
(Broken voice crying.) “It makes me sick, that I didn’t push it harder, or that… I knew in my gut that something was wrong. I tried to get Kaine to give me custody, I should have fought harder.
And I would go back in a second to fix it if I could. I will never in this lifetime forgive myself….never. ”
(Back in studio together)
Dr. Phil: What could you have done for him that you didn’t do?
Desiree: ” I….just thought I was….. I just doubted my…intuition, and I ….. ” (shakes head, doesn’t finish).
Dr. Phil looks at Kaine, and says “there were times that you were traveling…when Kyron was at your house” (looks back to Desiree)
“And you say that there were times when he was gone, she would call you, to come get rid of him or come get him or bring him home or whatever”.
Desiree: “Yep.”
Dr. Phil to Desiree: “why would she do that?”
Desiree: “Ummmmm….because Kyron wanted her to” “He was very upset, he was crying. There was something going on. She wouldn’t
tell me what specifically initiated the event, ummmm, but that he was upset that he wanted to come home, he wanted to come live with me, he didn’t want to be there and he wanted me to come and get him… and I said I’m on my way.”
Kaine: (looking extremely upset) “I’ve had, many, many drives, for custody exchanges where he has cried and melted down because he didn’t want to come see you. I never told you that, because I didn’t need to tell you that. He was having a hard time adjusting times, it’s not like it’s unusual in these circumstances. So he was having to deal with split homes and dealt with it at times and at times it was tough for him.”
So, they’re talking about Terri’s DUI, and he asks Desi if she knew and she said she didn’t, so we all know this part already,but here’s what he says to Kaine:
Dr. Phil: “Did you see her abuse alcohol?” (referencing Terri)
Kaine: “I didn’t witness it directly, no. ”
Dr. Phil: “She didn’t do it around you?”
Kaine: “Not in front of me, no.”
Dr. Phil then plays an old tape (pretty sure) of Kaine’s:
Kaine: “Terri & I were dating at the time, she got a DUI in 2005,
and also a citation for child endangerment because her son was in the back seat. We actively talked about alcohol in the home and we tried to restrict that. We did take some conscious steps and it seemed like things got better. It was over several years and Terri had started increasing the levels of alcohol in the home. Often times, I would come downstairs and my daughter would be roaming around the house with her passed out on the couch. So I started to get a little worried, she can’t even get up in the morning, it was just getting a little bit beyond the norm.”
Back in studio:
Dr. Phil to Kaine: “You said at one point you saw her passed out on the couch?”
Kaine: “um hum.”
Phil: “So you did know she was..”
Kaine interrupts: “Well, I… the part that I didn’t understand was and with the surgeries and things she had, I didn’t know if it was medication or related. She had valid stories for being up all night and being with my daughter and being tired. As far as the consumption, I never saw her consume to excess in front of me. There were some residual things that I was starting to notice that I was becoming concerned about.
Now Talking to Desiree:
Dr. Phil: You say that the night before Kyron went missing, that things happened, that you now know about, that you discovered, that had you known about, she would never have been allowed to leave the house with him. What did you find out, what do you know?
Desiree: “Well, as always, Terri put everything in writing, which God love her, which has been a blessing for us. And uh, she put down in writing that her and Kaine were up until 3:00 in the morning
fighting about their marital problems, that she had told him she was ‘insert cuss word of your choice (looked like the f word to me) done with it all’. That she, uh, was moving back to Roseburg, they were getting a divorce, was done with it. And it was gonna be Friday. The day that Kyron went missing.”
Dr. Phil turns to Kaine:
“So big upheaval that night?”
Kaine: “No.”
Phil: “It didn’t happen?”
Kaine: “No, it was a normal morning for me. Up at 5:00, off to the gym, back home, get ready for work, kiss Kyron good bye, go to the office.”
Phil back to Desiree:
“But you’re saying you have seen and personally read an email from her account to a friend of hers that says we’re fighting til 3 am in the morning, filing, out a here, gone. ”
Desiree: “Yep.”
Phil to Kaine:
“and you’re saying you did not fight til 3 in the morning?”
Kaine shaking head “says no”
Phil: “Did you fight til 2 or 1 or 12 or 11 or 10?” (Kaine still shaking his head no.) “There was no big blow up that night?”
Kaine: “No.”
Phil @ Kaine: “Are you shocked to hear this?” “That this an email that…” “email she’s written”
Kaine: “No.”
Phil: “Why doesn’t that surprise you?”
Kaine “There’s a lot of that.” “Information where she’s writing things down that then we go do the interviews with LE and the actual activities don’t match the emails.”
***********************
Well, as Porky would say, that’s all folks, because I’m out of time. Hope I did a decent job and hope that helps people who didn’t get to see the show. There’s more about the affairs etc. This is pretty much the parts that were somewhat new to me.
http://drphil.com/shows/show/2069/
Kaine: “I think absolutely, I did. I think at the time the economy was going in a really bad direction for all of us. I was focused on work, I was focused all of sudden we had a daugh…a new daughter that wasn’t expected. We had a lot of things that were happening in life, and I spent a lot of my time focused on my kids and focused on my job and I did not focus on her and I definitely should have spent more time, but I’ve also, in hindsight, all the discussions I’ve had with other people, most normal people on investigating their spouse on a day to day basis”.
*********
That should have said “aren’t investigating”. Sorry.
Kimster 06-05-2010 12:03 PM
Rivers are overflowing, BTW. They are deeper and faster than they should be. Are there any waterways around Skyline?
Showing pic of Kyron. Last seen 8:45AM am. Step-mom called school at 3:45PM. Authorities can’t confirm he was at school. Lt. Lunds??? is being interviewed and says this is devastating for the family. He is extremely shy and afraid of the police.
End of story.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/printthread.php?t=106082&pp=1000
I wanted to make sure that everyone has seen this, because it’s not anywhere else that I know of. This was Mary Lindstrand, of MCSO, in an interview the day after Kyron went missing. (Btw, the media has her name spelled Lindstrand and Lindstrom if you’re researching articles.)
So, we know that after that, we heard nothing about Kyron being afraid of the police. In fact, we heard the opposite, that Kyron wanted to be a police detective.
Since many here are talking about possible LE involvement in a steroid situation, I just wanted to make sure everyone saw this post by Kimster over on WS, as news was happening. Point is, someone told LE that Kyron was afraid of police. If not Kaine or Terri, then who else would have told them this? And if he told everyone else he wanted to be a police detective….where did this come from?
Sorry to bring up such old stuff, but I think we need to try and figure out what Kyron was trying to say. Did he really tell someone this? Did he witness police at his home during one of the 911 calls and that scared him?
IDK, just weird stuff.
After reviewing the Dr. Phil show, one thing dawned on me, no one, no one ever says “Kyron said” Terri hurt him, made him mad, sent him to bed without supper……nothing. Desiree says Kyron made her call to come get him, and Terri wouldn’t tell her what the circumstances were. Well, what did Kyron tell her the circumstances were? Would be nice to know his point of view.
Leslie- Thank you
Ragdoll- Hugs
Malty erose- thumbs up
Blink my apologies in advance-
warning lengthy posts coming-
take your time Blink
AJMO
peace
RE Rose says:
September 20, 2013 at 12:33 pm
@3.0. Sorry to say I stopped in yr Part 4 after you wrote Teri chose ( in caps) to give up rights to her child.
Au contraire. MCSO would not share with her, as they freely did with Kaine, the basis for the alleged criminal action (mfh) she was accused of in RO which was its sole basis. That was illegal imo (see Mark Long case above). Her attorney could not even get ordinary public info such as 911 transcriptions. So, in truth, MCSO & Kaine chose to illegally severe the mother-daughter relationship.
—-
Hey there Rose
its a shame that you stopped reading but just so you know i never said outright that this happened what i wrote was voiced as a question -
and although what you wrote is true it is also true that terri Chose to severe the relationship by taking her attorneys advice-
and she did so as not to potentially incriminate herself-
Does it mean that she is definitely guilty or definitely innocent no -
The laws were set up to protect the innocent but we all know that the bad guy can use the law to his/her advantage-
Lets all step back and compare this case to lets say the powell case-
Poor little Kitty undoubtedly loves & needs her mom- just as the Powell boys loved and needed their dad-
But granting SP visitation rights even supervised led to their horrific murders-
Should Kaine or LE or the courts put Kitty in possible harms way?
because terri is remaining silent to protect her rights and put off the court cases etc- does that mean it is safe for Kitty with her mom? just be uase she hasnt been charged or arrested or indicted does that mean she is definitely innocent and safe for kitty?
IDK do you?
Didnt we all cry out why oh why did they give Steven Powell visitation rights even supervised visitation?
many said he OBVIOUSLY killed Susan… but that was not proven in a court of law
So his silence and denials led to him getting visitation…
personally I would rather err on the side of caution for the chidrens sake and i certainly would want Terri to undergo STRINGENT mental health eval. before granting custody or joint custody or even visitation even just supervised- and IIRC way back when she chose not to undergo such evaluations-
Does that mean i think she did it or had a hand in it? no it means i dont know one way or another but i am unwilling to give her a chance like the one that was given to Mr powell.
Rose You wrote:
Imo TH is far from just fine. She’s lost her profession, her physical safety, her reputation on her community, her child, her home, and her marriage.
All as a result of MCSO/DA’s press conferences, briefings of bios knowing their chatter, & a misinformation campaign replete with lies & half truths. That she is represented in required by mcso/DA scofflaw behaviors. That Desiree is not represented, and she shoukd be, is not for lack of her knowledge of how to use gofundme for same. Now that I would donate to.
Again she lost all of these to ensure she received the best criminal lawyer available to protect her own rights and in that choice she made she knew it meant to give up custody at least for a time-
Again I honestly do not know if she had anything to do with Kyrons disappearance or whether or not she accidentally let in a vampire or not
I dont know and the truth is you dont know either Rose
AND if you dont know what lead up to the disappearance of Kyron and you dont know where he is or if he is alive or dead then you cant possibly know who is involved and to what degree-
I am looking more at this from a mothers point of view- not a “law” point of view
i realize that-
I cant help it – it goes with my handle
thanks for weighing in rose most appreciated.
AJMO Peace
@TRuth. I haven’t read Kantor’s order, but re
“T. Ruth says:
September 21, 2013 at 1:56 pmWhen I read the recent order, it was my understanding that Houze/Bunch can continue their investigation and depose PPS employees, but…..they cannot ask them the questions any of them may have been asked by the GJ? Did I read that right?”
imo that would be outrageous. I mean, what would be left? nothing relevant.
The whole point of a depo is to ensure the same story of the GJ is repeated in the divorce trial.
And if Matthews or Porter can’t say the exact same, their atty will say use the word 5th.
DDS had to say 5th as she hadn’t done GJ yet.
Could TMH have lied in the email about the June 3rd fight because Desiree might have backed out of the visit and if Terri told DY things were bad at the Horman home, maybe Desiree would drop everything to come get Kyron? Maybe TMH was afraid of someone and/or had some other reason she needed Kyron to go to Desiree’s?
RE
T. Ruth says:
September 20, 2013 at 2:19 pm
@Mom3.0 says:
September 20, 2013 at 12:21 am
“WHAT? So let me get this straight,
you have a very hard time believing that Terri would do something like this to get back at Kaine,”
***********
With all due respect, please do not put words in my mouth, where did I say that I had a hard time believing that?
**********
Greetings T Ruth
-__ T Ruth please give me a little bit more credit than that
i never put words in your mouth
read my whole statement rather than a snippet-
here is what you wrote:
You wrote:
I do know from watching her and the things she has said, not just recently, that IMOO the main reason she thinks Terri did something to Kyron is because she thinks (hell, maybe knows) Kaine was doing the same thing to Terri that he did to her, some 11 years ago.
Now, that being said, does anyone wonder if that idea had ever crossed her own mind, so devastated by betrayal that she maybe thought of doing something similar at some point? Maybe talked of giving her son away? IDK, or worse? (Remember Desiree’s letter to Kyron where she said HE saved HER life? Well, I’m guessin’ she meant that.) I’m not saying that happened, but did she entertain the idea?
–
So I responded by asking you for clarification: as to me the above statement seems to imply that You think Desiree believes( one of)MAIN REASONs terri would be capable of hurting Ky or getting rid of him is because She herself is more than capable of it
afterall she was the first woman scorned by Kaine…again implying that you in no way think Desiree is correct in her thoughts about terri but IS spot on in her own deflected self analysis -according to your hypothesis-
Again this is how your statement read to me- thats why i asked for clarification-
You asked;
Did you watch the Dr. Phil show?
Yes i did.
My post was in in regard to Desiree Young’s and Kaine Horman’s appearance and their words on that show. Terri Horman was not on that show or I might have had something to say about anything she said or how she appeared as well.
T Ruth if i may remind you spoke of the past over and over you specifically stated :
I do know from watching her and the things she has said, **not just recently, **
which to me, certainly seems to underscore you were encapsulating Desirees words and behaviors not just on the show but in the past as well…
You went further to write;
Terri Horman was not on that show or I might have had something to say about anything she said or how she appeared as well.
You didnt speak about Terri because she wasnt on the show? but neither was Desirees Exhusband Gregg McCullough or Quinn or Tony
You asked:
Did you ever hear the letter she wrote to Terri, where she says “I know what you are going through”?:
http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.html#/video/us/2011/12/19/kyrons-mom-writes-letter-to-stepmom.hln?iref=allsearch
yes Ive listened to that letter-
IMO Desiree was trying to appeal to Terri one mother to another mother- one x wife of kaines to another- Kaine said on the show that his marriage was heading for divorce- an ex wife and a soon to be ex wife- saying hey i know why it didnt work doesnt mean anything other than hey i couldnt live with him either- I get it-
my biggest take away from that letter was desiree begging Terri to break the silence-
Desiree said she is not out for justice or revenge- she simply wants to know and would choose option B over A-
So very sad.
-
You went on to share;
*************and this FB comment from Desiree’s father:
Kyron’s Poppa
Desi spoke with Jane of HLN (CNN) and read her letter to Terri yesterday. I think it caught Jane off guard as she sounded close to tears. Basically Desi said she’s probably the only person Terri knows who will understand what was going on, having been married to Kaine. I think Kaine has made his bed and will have to live with his narcissistic controlling crap – his son, my grandson, is missing!
Share · December 20, 2011 at 9:26pm ·
Even though it cant be verified as DY dad, i have no problem in saying it
–sounds like the writings of a father who is dealing with the fact that the man his daughter once married and had a child with did not fulfill poppas dreams as her knight in shining armor or the childs protector – and poppa is correct kaine will have to live with his choices as will terri as will Desiree as will we all-
****************(sorry no linky no more, but I did check it out and it appeared to be Kyron’s Poppa.)
You went on to write;
I have no respect for Mr. Horman. I have no idea whether Terri Horman even knew Kaine was a married man, at the time Desiree says he was seeing Terri, nor do I know whether or not she knew of Desiree’s pregnancy, but I do know Kaine did.
Kaine Horman himself has said that he and Desiree at that time, were living separate lives, even though they were still under the same roof. (Although Desiree called him a liar on that one.) So, it could very well be that Kaine Horman, slipped off his wedding ring and wooed Terri into bed without her knowing he was married. I just don’t know, so, I will reserve my thoughts of her that until I know what actually went on.
_ thanks for sharing your opinion-
But in truth- you will never know what actually was going on as Blink once opined there are several sides to any story-
“His Hers and The Truth-”
You wrote
I stand by my view of the show and what I came away with from it. That being, Desiree Young needs to let go of her past, she needs help doing so. If you watched it, you obviously came away with something else. We are all entitled to our own opinions, and yes they are based mostly on our own experiences, but please do not say I said things, when I did not. Peace to you as well.
i can see you stand by your views
and i never insinuated that you or anyone else wasnt entitled to an opinion i only offered my perspectives as a counter-
Again as I have so carefully pointed out to you I did not put words in your mouth so please stop reciting that as if it will make it so.
You wrote;
Oh, one more thing: you said, “terrri a woman that was once thought to have no qualms of hiring a hit man…”
P.S. To this day, we have seen zero evidence that Terri Horman attempted to hire a hit man to kill anyone. The facts are she hasn’t been arrested or charged with conspiracy to commit murder and the grand jury could not even pass a true bill in this regard. So, there are no facts other than as you say, Terri has only been “thought” of capable of this by some people, and by other people who knew her, not.
—you are good ill give you that- I was speaking of a “once thought” but FTR we are not nor were we ever privy to any evidence in this case or in the divorce case or in the MFHC-
the facts are that she was never arrested or charged you are correct- and the facts are that the grand jury has not sent down an indictment true-
But all that in NO WAY clears Terri of any crime- and just because SOME of the people feel she was not capable of this does not mean that other people who knew her didnt feel differently
and as we all know from following true crime often times it is the person voted least capable— that is the actual perp
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me T Ruth
AJMO
Peace
Sometimes I think some people will say almost anything to make themselves look better. Or maybe a person making a comment like KH did (for the first time, right??) is starting to feel that not everyone thinks he is completely honest and trustworthy. IDK. Sleeze is sleeze.
@T. Ruth says:September 21, 2013 at 1:12 pm
The conversation from Kaine previously when the bio parents talked about this was very casual, saying it was nothing but a child’s adjusting between the two homes. Now, suddenly it sounds much more important to Mr. Horman.
I wonder if he felt that saying this before would put his estranged wife in a good light, when he was trying to vilify her? IDK, just curious.
@vw. EM would have known immediately she could, and probably should, be named personally along with PPS in a tort suit. Her attorney woukdn’t want her to speak to pps, keefer, mcso etc, without Counsel,
That she was not sued shows the hold DA/MCSO has over DY & KH. When you know the dirt, if dirt is to be found, you have control. I see EM as a person a principal Ray Myrtle would’ve jawboned into retirement toot suite. But Keefer isn’t one of those, so PPS Legal probably pushed, or maybe bios said, We won’t sue, if she leaves & can’t do this again.
Are there ANY honest lawyers, honest LEO, honest judges anywhere in Portland? If so, where are they, and who? Just wondering (and hoping I never ever get into any kind of trouble… sheesh!)
Blink since LE seems to be totally uninterested in the male who accompanied Kyron out of the building, why not share with your readers the complete description of him that you have been given?
1. I have never discussed the description I have, from multiple sources for investigative reasons.
2. There are and will be protective orders of potential juvenile witnesses of same.
B