Hannah Graham Body Located: Sources Say Tip Led To Her Recovery
Breaking News: The body of Hannah Elizabeth Graham has been recovered.
Press Conference involving multiple agencies to be held momentarily.
Thoughts and prayers are with Hannah, her family and friends this evening.
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Rose
The political party of an Attorney General does not in my mind make them good or bad. It is their general behavior towards the law and the people that makes the person a quality performer. Your explanation of the activities of the GOP Attorney General makes it clear that he was just another politician looking to use his law experience to promote himself.
Are you certain that the description of the new procedures for the ABC are in place rather than just on a piece of paper? We will probably find the truth the next time there is something major under the current watch.
I am certain that some of the schools in Tx. when you attended did not have sports programs for girls. The large schools had basketball, swimming, volleyball and softball for girls during my time. My comment regarding title IX was not about its existence, it was the way in which it was written and administered. I apologize for not making it clear.
Rose
I forgot to mention the link you gave regarding the summit for finding solutions to the college rape and assault problem. At least it got the governor’s attention, something that didn’t happen with Morgan.
It will be interesting to see the Work Product of this group and what real changes are implemented, if any. A feel good activity if I ever saw one. However, if one or two in the group will stand firm for correction and action, something valuable could be achieved.
A Susan re:
susan says:
November 1, 2014 at 7:31 am
@ eRose and Eloise, thanks and bravo for the land research!. If I am looking at my mapquest correctly, then, Colle Farm, now Jefferson Vineyards is southeast of Charlottesville, while the other properties which I think are the bone of contention are lying west. Correct me if I am wrong, or seeing this wrong. So Colle did not become AF or Shack Mountain, or Riverview which became Ivy Preserve. Still that doesn’t settle in my mind some connection between George Carr, owner of Colle, the associate of TJ who also settled parts of TJ’s estate and the Hugh Carr former slave.
So, I would like to know about the alias as “why George Carr.” I get the “Carr,” as in Hugh Carr, but I am at a loss to get the “George.” Are George and Hugh related, or somehow otherwise connected through the historic slavery connection?
***
Biography:George Carr (1800- 1886)
ID: I28518
Name: George Sr. CARR
Sex: M
Birth: 16 NOV 1800 in Albemarle Co., VA
Death: NOV 1886 in “The Barracks”, near Charlottesville, Albemarle Co., VA
Reference Number: 28518
more
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=est3739-2&id=I28518
@susan. as to what I wrote re legs, you are right.
I have gone back to look for where I read
that & a link, & I can’t find, so I retract, ignore
my comment, apologies. I don’t read anything
on Hannah other than mainstream
media & Help Find, so I should have linked it
or not said it.
A Texas Grandfather says:
November 2, 2014 at 1:03 pm
snipped
There is a new chemical that is being used for disablement since “roofies” now are required to have a color agent that will show up. I need to do some research on what it is and how one obtains it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, some of the generic brands of Rohypnol do not have the agent that turns a clear drink blue. According to the DEA, many are using Ambien (Zolpidem) which has a fast onset of action, short half life and produces anterograde and retrograde amnesia. That said, the most common date rape drug continues to be alcohol.
Grace I could be wrong, but I think I know what ATG was referring to and I want to say you mentioned it recently on this thread or the first hannah thread- starts with an M?
B
Blink thought, from the beginning, that Morgan was subdued with a stun gun. I wonder what they found in/on Matthews property? Maybe Morgan thought she was getting into a taxi. (?) They hinted that there was new evidence found pertaining to Morgan’s case, but what? Hanna, may have been stunned or drugged. Thank God he was caught. I’m so sorry it was at Hanna’s expense. We knew it would take another victim to catch him. He is one sick, ugly person. He will never hurt another one of our girls again.
Now here’s an account of the recent hearing in Fairfax that will put a smile on your faces: http://liveblog.wtop.com/Event/The_search_for_Hannah_Graham/131695441
I love the thought of JM being out of his comfort zone in Charlottesville, beyone his protectors’ realm of influence, where he will face a no-nonsense Judge and the weight and letter of the law will come first, not PC, affirmative action, football or his family name/s.
@susan, I am lousy with directions so I am sure you are right. You have done such great research on the Carr Family, read your every post since I have been reading, but started late so may have missed some. Looks like George’s dad (Micajah) owned Colle. Maybe George inherited it from him.
http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/george-carr
I read that George was the commissioner of the liquidation of the sale of Monticello. There might be some symbolism in that. (Haven’t made the Hugh Carr connection either.)
http://ead.lib.virginia.edu/vivaxtf/view?docId=uva-sc/viu03362.xml
susan says:
November 1, 2014 at 7:31 am
snip>
…Still that doesn’t settle in my mind some connection between George Carr, owner of Colle, the associate of TJ who also settled parts of TJ’s estate and the Hugh Carr former slave.
So, I would like to know about the alias as “why George Carr.” I get the “Carr,” as in Hugh Carr, but I am at a loss to get the “George.” Are George and Hugh related, or somehow otherwise connected through the historic slavery connection?
Was Hugh Carr and ancestors the slaves of the Micajah Carr and ancestors?
Regarding the FF hearing.
Camblos’ posturing to be “lead” and his going on about “how he knows Mr. Matthew” and “How Mr. Matthew is “comfortable” with him——??!!
Deliver us please. This “special snowflake” treatment of JLM is beyond tiresome now. However at least this nonsense is seeming to get the reality check it deserves in FF.
The public in Virginia deserves to have an end to this pc madness. Also it would seem to be time for UVa to be having some kind of investigation into whether or not there have been any suspicious harms against patients in that hospital, under the care of JLM.
@Rose—regarding the Daly case and the ABC agents. There was a public uproar over this with thousands of people posting on the VABC facebook page for months, very unflattering and caustic comments to VABC. Most comments have been removed which people don’t like, either.
There has been extensive coverage of this VABC embarrassment worldwide. What info was eventually released did involve failure to follow policy of agents by not moving out of the way of Daly’s vehicle.
The lack of common sense of these 8? agents in street wear of t shirts, etc, approaching Daly who had bought bottled water and cookie dough, surrounding her car, trying to crack the driver’s side window with their flashlight ?? to “get her attention” that “she had better submit to their rogue tactics of interrogation in that parking lot at dusk” begs the question of total lack of judgement and lack of common sense of these agents gone rogue.
The girls had just been to a “take back the night” seminar about abductions in Charlottesville. They freaked out at this attack of no judgement by the ABC.
Then for months these cowboys gone wild from the ABC maintained that they “did nothing wrong.” Personally I lodged a verbal complaint by phone and the arguments and impunity which this agency was operating under to insist to me that they had done nothing wrong was outrageous. There was no reality check for a long time in this case.
It took the Charlottesville CA months to figure out that Daly was the victim here, and by that passage of months, Daly had spent time in jail, was dealing with a felony on her record and at UVA, at least one overnight in jail where this incompetent bunch had written her up on a felony charge for “running them down with the car and failing to stop and submit to their antics when they all came charging up on her at dusk in that parking lot”——- where she had done absolutely nothing wrong.
Perhaps VABC had better use some of that manpower to correct the ABC lapses in the bars instead of running over the college girls.
This filing of false felonies against students doing nothing wrong, but asserting their rights, is a common intimidation tactic of the lesser, unprofessional police forces in Virginia. I have seen it more times that I care to report.
It is nothing more than obnoxious bullying by the jealous agents/cops who want power and control in confronting these young students.
As I have observed other cases like this in Virginia, there appears to be a huge problem with some of these lesser cops squads confronting the students, and when felonies get written out of anger and getting even with students for spite, there is also a big disconnect between that harsh bullying for power, and how “our special snowflake” in this case JLM has been pacified and excused and pampered by the very same system. Also I might add the same excuse for cousin co-conspirator hiding in the UVa dorm, who dances away with no problem from her co-conspiracy for murder charge. No wonder this group loves Camblos so much. He was very effective for the defense in his role as prosecutor in the other Carr case. Maybe he will be effective for the prosecution in his role for JLM’s defense in the kind of karma which is now deserved?
These rogue cops need to be prosecuted.
There has always been an undercurrent lore of a serial killer masquerading as law enforcement in Virginia, from the Colonial Parkway murders in the 1980′s as well as some aspects and reports of the Route 29 serial killer have alleged LE masquerade. In the Colonial Parkway case this was actually suspected to be LE, not a costume. So, LE in Virginia needs to wake up and take notice that they are on the hot seat in cases like Daly v. ABC. Cops cannot use this kind of total lack of judgement and expect to get excused. Also the lesser and unprofessional police forces and their bullying and intimidation tactics, which are prevalent against college students in Va needs to be compared to the special snowflake treatment of JLM by the “system” in Charlottesville. We now know how the politically correct and “special” cases can be accommodated and based on this special accommodation of JLM for years compared against the the rogue lack of judgment and harsh treatment for spite of the regular kids —-all of this disconnect now needs to be brought to light.
If this suspected serial miscreant can get two free rides on tuition and fees while committing assaults and rapes, many driving infractions waived, road rage erased and excused, never questioned as a taxi driver in Morgan’s case beyond all reason, then this excuse of a system needs to be held fully accountable for JLM’s kid glove treatment allowing the public to be put at risk for years, and in a hospital orderly job no less!
I do not understand Camblos’ reasoning on the sanity eval at the time of the 2005 incident,
unless he was in inpatient/outpatient treatment in Fairfax at the time. All prosecution has to do is
call a few friends & family members who’d say he was the same ol gentle Jesse, and
put on evidence of the jobs he’d held & studies at PVCC and so on.
So many good and interesting comments! Blink, I think you need a LIKE button!
Blink, the drug was MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxy-methamphetamine also known as ecstasy or Molly) which can produce stimulant and hallucinogenic effects similar to the behavior JLM was manifesting in the restaurant – euphoria, disinhibition, feelings of warmth, inappropriate touching, etc. MDMA was the drug that when overdosed was killing kids that ingested it at Rave parties by raising their body temperatures.
The following is only my opinion:
It could be that the suspect’s drug of choice that night was alcohol and that his fetish behavior and inappropriate caressing/touching in the restaurant earlier that night, that clearly made his victims uncomfortable, was not drug induced but a sort of sick foreplay for what was to come. After the alleged abduction, he had to be sober enough to find a place to allegedly assault/commit homicide and then leave the body hidden well enough that it wouldn’t be immediately discovered.
Just writing about this type of offender makes me feel queasy.
Thanks Grace, I don’t know why but I thought it was slanted more toward OR anesthesia- something he might have access to. Like you, I am not convinced that he drugs anyone. Disables yes, but not prepared to buy-in on the drugging issue.
B
Susanm….could you clarify your pist….broken bones…some girl with the last name mathew….what is a twight case….you lost me….i do think camblos came off like a moron…he must know court procedure enough to have not brought up a sanity evaluation…besides…how do you evaluate someones insanitu retrospectively….come on….mskes no sense ….and i AM insane…lol
I think it is possible that both drugging and stunning could be at play with Hannah. Would using a stun gun on someone who had been drugged subdue any of the reaction followed by being stunned?
Susan-
Wanted to make sure you saw in that rootsweb link this part>>
ID: I28930
Name: George Tompkins CARR
Sex: M
Birth: 1893 in “The Barracks”, Albemarle Co., VA
Death: 1972 in ” Barrackside Farm”, Albemarle Co., VA
Burial: Riverview Cem., Charlottesville, Albemarle, VA
Reference Number: 28930
Note:
—Source: Carol Mitchell
—Obituary: 17 Mar 1972, Albemarle Co., Virginia. George Carr Prominent Albemarle Farmer, Dies. “George Tompkins Carr died at his home. Barackside Farm, on Thursdayl He was born at The Barracks,
Albemarle County in 1893 oldest son of David and Virginia Tompkins Carr. Mr Carr was a farmer in the county all of his life and had been active in county affairs and many organizations. He was a past
president of the Albemarle Dairymen’s Association. The Albemarle County Farm Bureau and the Albemarle Ruritan Club, a past director and life member of the Virginia State Dairyman’s Association. He was a devoted member of Olivet Presbyterian Churhc and had been an officer in the church since age 17. His wife was the late Jessie Wilkinson Carr. He is survived by a sister Mrs. A. P. Mills of Chevy Chase, MD, a brother Charles G. Carr of Walnutside Albemarle County, a son David W. Carr of Barrackside Farm, three daughters, Mrs. C. AM. Garnett Jr, Albemarle County, Mrs Edward C. Wingfield of Wethersfield Conn., and Mrs. J. P. Haden of Haden Hills Albemarle County, 16 grand children and two great grandchildren. Funeral services will be held at Olivet Presbyterian Church at 11 a.m. Saturday with burial at Riverview Cemetery. Hill & Irving is in charge on arrangements. The family requests that in lieu of floweres donations be made to the Presbyterians Children’s Home in Lynchburg.”
Father: David CARR b: ABT 1862 in Albemarle Co., VA
Mother: Virginia TOMPKINS b: ABT 1862
Marriage 1 Jessie WILKINSON b: ABT 1893
GraceintheHills
I have to agree regarding the drug. I think what was being discussed was some variant in the street name. I did not find the reference earlier mentioned, but I did find a lot of entries from colleges and universities that were trying to warn students about drugs in alcohol consumed at parties and public places.
Most of those entries included instructions on procedures for reporting and how to preserve the evidence. At least half of them instructed the victim to report to a college or university group prior to going to the police. That is a major mistake that somehow the parents need to get corrected. Rape is a felony in every state and should be handled by local LE, not the school. The LE agency should be the one to contact the school.
Why did he choose Carr?
Hugh, having taken the surname Carr…
http://ivycreekfoundation.org/history/familyhistory/hughcarr.html
There is still something regarding the crimes JM committed with Morgan and Hannah that has not been discussed. Somewhere in the Red Hill road area is a place that JM took his victims for a time. There is where he did his evil work of torture and death and then he moved them. This has to be a place that screams would not be heard. A barn on a large tract that is no longer used or an abandoned house.
I think LE needs to address this possibility and either prove it or disprove it. It is just too bad that in cases such as this, that advanced interrogation techniques cannot be used.
I agree with you he has access to a structure of some kind.
B
I see here Hugh Carr belonged (cringe) to Richard Woods Wingfield of Woodlands.
http://books.google.com/books?id=nCn4XrP_u0MC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=hugh+carr+slave&source=bl&ots=69RKyDUtFr&sig=sRx5a0pCa4MbuY9MRbH4by4KMHE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mz1YVPCIA8L-iAK8t4DoCw&ved=0CFIQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=hugh%20carr%20slave&f=false
@Grace. wrt
“It could be that the suspect’s drug of choice that night was alcohol and that his fetish behavior and inappropriate caressing/touching in the restaurant earlier that night, that clearly made his victims uncomfortable, was not drug induced but a sort of sick foreplay for what was to come. After the alleged abduction, he had to be sober enough to find a place to allegedly assault/commit homicide and then leave the body hidden well enough that it wouldn’t be immediately discovered.”
Totally with you. I agree.
——
wrt Mollys,
I had occasion last summer to offend my dau that I would not drive a female school friend of her college boyfriend to her camp for various reasons (mostly due to my skills acquired via BOC). Come to find out w/o my dau’s knowledge this girl put together a girl group for my dau to drive to Montreal as under 21s could drink, but this group wanted to buy Mollys as well. Needless to say, my dau didn’t do it, told me, & dumped them. The point is, even sheltered abstinence girls like mine know all about Mollys, & groups of middle class girls seek Mollys out & think it fun, and no boy need be involved. In fact, it was only when a group of Northwestern boys told my dau she shoukdn’t come to their usual creek campfires lest these girls follow her that she shed them. My point is, knowing these girls, Mollys are probably middle class mainstream on the East Coast anyway. But I don’t think the effect of this stimulant would be that seen in Hannah. I’m thinking more versed like if anything more than alcohol was used.
@Susan. Imo the $212k settlement was minuscule,
& was because Henry Hudson was the Judge.
Susan
I feel your frustration regarding the VABC rogue agents. There will be nothing done in the area of real correction until the public makes it so hot for the agency that it cannot be ignored. You are part of that public and the only thing that will make a difference is to involve others in large enough numbers that the media can not ignore you.
The big problem for the young ladies is that they did not have any adult witnesses that were willing to stop the assault and accompany them to the police station to demand the rogue agents be locked up for an assault on citizens.
I will never believe that those agents didn’t know the carton carried to the car was water. If they didn’t know the difference in packaging of water and beer they should never have been on the detail. This was a “scare the girls” game that backfired and then they lied to cover their crime.
Wouldn’t this be the farm that Hugh Carr worked as a slave?
snips>
Woodlands is a 340-acre farmstead located three miles northwest of the
city of Charlottesville in an area currently undergoing piecemeal
residential development. Retaining its traditional rural ambiance, the
property features five contributing buildings and structures, including a large 1840s house and an antebellum barn.
The Woodlands tract straddles Virginia Route 676, an early road running between Hydraulic Mills and Owensville. The farm is bordered on the north by the North Fork of the Rivanna River and on the south by Ivy Creek; Jumping Branch bisects the southern half of the farm.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZinhEk0GdGsJ:www.dhr.virginia.gov/registers/Counties/Albemarle/002-0621%2520-%2520Woodlands%2520-%25201989%2520-%2520Final%2520Nomination.pdf+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
rose, ok ,no known broken legs yet. it was rumoured that morgans forearm was broken ,at first thought that seems like-hit by an object-. liberty rape girl,behind the arena(in a car,or on the ground?) was hospitalized,wonder what her injuries were? but now, studies at pvcc ? what was he studying there? was that, what was in the ws list for 2012 ,took classes ,or went to school? when I saw that ,I thought it must have been something required for the oderly job.
7. FL Grandmother says:
November 3, 2014 at 7:31 am
Now here’s an account of the recent hearing in Fairfax that will put a smile on your faces: http://liveblog.wtop.com/Event/The_search_for_Hannah_Graham/131695441
THANK YOU. JUSTICE is needed here, for Morgan, Hannah, for the lady Fairfax victim, may she be strong as we stand behind her, and for all of his other victims. Fairfax, let him have it!
The history is interesting but I think the whole ” George Carr ” is VERY SIMPLE and not at all complex or deep.
I’m not quite following why this is being analyzed to the extent that it is…..
When choosing a “fake name” LJM picks the name of an admired ancestor whose traits he would aspire to emulate.
It could not be more simple AND DEMONSTRATES HIS AWARENESS OF RIGHT FROM WRONG, SANITY etc.
My own “fake name” for this blog AUNT ANNIE is my great aunt Annie Leake Tuttle. Chosen because of my great and deep respect for an ancestor whose traits I much admire and aspire to emulate.
She lived in Canada and was a brilliant noted teacher and devoted faithful volunteer who worked lovingly with others
including setting up a home for ex-Chinese prostitutes who had been “trafficked” in Halifax, Nova Scotia in the early 1900s.
I never knew Aunt Annie but I’m proud that I have her blood – probably not unlike LJM being proud of being “George Carr’s” kin.
It is certainly a very normal and rational way to “choose a name” when you pick one other than your own- pick a name of an admired ancestor- VERY SIMPLE.
Except that the name he used, and the locations he chose, at least those we know of, are tied together historically. There is nexus. Where there is nexus there is information.
B
@eRose, Rose, and Eloise—wow. You have all done fantastic research and you have given me many more points and links to consider.
Yes, I do think it is more than a coincidence that the alias George Carr was used, that it connects back to an associate of Thomas Jefferson, that the Hugh Carr freed slave who put together the Riverview Farm (more below on that) took the name Carr for some reason. Also Eloise your point about George T Carr d. 1972 being buried in Riverview Cemetery is most interesting. Married daughter with last name Wingfield. I take it this is an established cemetery and it doesn’t seem to be the same Hugh Carr Riverview family cemetery on what is now Ivy Preserve.
To your question Eloise, and a quick summary of the bones of contention which I’ve dug up—my inspiration for which goes way back to Blink’s articles beginning five years ago on Morgan’s placement: There is a lingering “discomfort” in the community background over the slavery issue, going back years and the way that the historic AA grounds of Hydraulic- Union Ridge Village were subsumed (flooded) to make the Rivanna Reservoir. This happened back in the 1960′s. If you go back and read about Hydraulic it will be very hard to understand what happened to this Village, because the history takes pains to write around what happened to this land. In some history it seems to imply that the “flooding” by the reservoir was accidental. It is my impression that the historic Village of Hydraulic lies under water now. Correct me if I’m mistaken.
Then Hugh Carr who was a freed slave of background which you all have well illustrated, amassed 160 acres along this now reservoir called Riverview Farm. Hugh appears to be a ggg forebear of JLM, as JLM’s grandfather Louie Carr, deceased husband of Christine Carr, the grandmother, lies in the family plot on former Riverview now Ivy Creek Preserve, along with Hugh Carr the family patriarch.
By 1975, Hugh had since passed on and one of his daughters who was taking care of the farm was no longer able to do so. (This daughter was widowed from Conley Greer who had predeceased her, and CG was a long time county extension agent who had made Riverview into a model farm.–This Conley Greer is no doubt related to the Conley Greer now residing in Baton Rouge and I’ve seen something to indicate that this present day Conley Greer cousin of some ilk of JLM was on the receiving end of the phone call from JLM en route to Galveston when JLM stopped at the Tiger Truck Stop in Baton Rouge weeks ago. I can’t confirm that, does anyone know?)
Anyway, back in 1975 there was a nasty dispute playing out in two federal courts, Virginia Supreme Court, and refused cert twice in the US Supreme Court, this fight going on for years, over this land grudge of the refusal of zoning for the AA developer Fleming’s plans for the housing development on former Riverview, neighbor to AF and Shack Mountain—Riverview is now Ivy Creek. At the end after years of fighting, there was left a $600,000 judgement of these courts against this AA developer Fleming for calling UVa professor Bedford Moore a racist in print, in two papers, one of them–The Cavalier Daily. Many articles can be found using key words, Bedford Moore, James Fleming, Shack Mountain, lawsuits, Supreme Court, libel judgement.
Interesting Point—Shack Mountain (which has its own Wikipedia Entry and multiple realtor websites on line now from its recent sale) had been owned by Bedford Moore for many years, and had just been announced as “sold” for the first time in about 50 years, on the realty website on September 10, 2014, three days before September 13, 2014 the day Hannah went missing. Jane Moore, Bedford’s wife has passed away in 2010.
In 1975 80 acres of this Riverview land formerly owned by Hugh Carr, (relative of JLM through JLM GF Louie Carr, deceased husband of Christine Carr), was in some capacity held by one James Fleming, for trust of the family?????, who wanted to develop a high density housing development for low income people on this land –specifically an AA housing development. This did not sit well with Babs Conant of UVa and Bedford Moore also of UVa. See Chronicles of the Conservancy, Ivy Creek Preserve, you need to access the linked pdf to get that history.
Which set two things in motion, in 1975, the agenda of Babs Conant a “biology teacher” and preservationist at UVA to pull out all stops to shut down this Riverview Farm development and have it acquired by the Ivy Creek Preserve, and also this brought into play the agenda of the other neighbor of this former Riverview, Bedford Moore, (UVA professor of English in the Engineering School) owner of historic estate Shack Mountain, to also fight this AA development on former Riverview, because it was his next door neighbor.
I found the history of Shack Mountain, which is a beautiful replica of Monticello to be fascinating. The history is available in multiple places in the internet simply with key words Shack Mountain. It is a national historic landmark, same as Anchorage Farm, and these two properties lie on either side of Riverview, now Ivy Preserve, IIRC.
That is some of the history which may either depict a historic lore bone of land grudge-slavery issues contention, or otherwise a history which has set up this apology for such resulting in JLM’s kid glove treatment by the system to date.
An interesting point in the George Carr d. 1972 history, evidently GC had a daughter living in Connecticut with the married name Wingfield. Eloise, this does coincidentally tie back in to the Hugh Carr slavery history Wingfield owner, but since it is a daughter’s married name I presume it is coincidence…………..
So we have facts which one could reasonably assume underlie a land grudge, slavery grudge, and/or bone of contention with UVa, ie Morgan Harrington and Hannah Graham both were connected with UVA, Morgan taken from the JPJ Arena concert or thereabouts, after being shut out, and Hannah a UVa student also taken.
I would not have been able to pull this together without Blink’s long standing hypothesis and articles she has written in Morgan’s case, suggesting the land-slavery grudge issue, (also see “Slave George” wikipedia in the internet which is true as far as I can tell, also related to TJ cousins and relations) as I would not have keyed in on any of this—given the oblique way the history has been written not to call attention and inflame.
Rose, alcohol (central nervous system depressant) in combination with MDMA (stimulant, hallucinogen) would be similar to a “speed ball” (combination of heroin and cocaine). With a combination you never really know what you are getting since street drugs can be cut/contaminated with other active or inactive substances. Thanks for sharing that story about your daughter’s friends. Unfortunately, drugs are easily obtained on most college campuses.
Blink, he would not have access to any of the drugs that an anesthesiologist uses in surgery. Those are locked down and stored in a room only specified licensed staff can enter.
Thinking of Hannah’s family today.
Watched the full video of the court proceedings. I’m liking the judge. Is it just me or did JM sound pretty chipper when he spoke? Seemed as if he was enjoying the attorneys arguing over whose going to represent him? He seriously did not sound like someone who realizes that he’s going to fry for what he’s done.
What a POS
@Susan. He was at PVCC briefly. I don’t recall the dates but
do recall he left before the bartender
was in attendance there. (Bartender did
quite well there.)
—-
@Grace. My thought was the girls in her group
could’ve shared mollys to preparty (not boys drugging them)
which coukd explain her lost, agitated running behavior.
re structure/access, where does uncle live?
Trying to see jlm finding a secluded area in this bar inside or out to put drugs in a beer…and presumably stir it…it seems weird thst he woyld do this out in the open…taking it in the mens…outside. with her passing out…which i also find hard to believe was unnoticed…nice history on cville past…still think its a stretcg that this barhopping rapist needed a complex excuse to do what he did…
PS. After all of that long narrative I forgot to put in the main point. In answer to Blink’s long standing query over many articles of the past five years, “Why Anchorage Farm?” I would submit that my research leads me to answer that question with the theory that Shack Mountain owner Bedford Moore and wife Jane could not by themselves satisfy the Nature Conservancy that this takeover of Hugh Carr’s Riverview Farm (their next door neighbor) to become a Nature Preserve not a housing project, would not become an island of preserve in an urban jungle of development, they needed the neighbor on the other side to go in with them to accomplish the objective to satisfy the Nature Conservancy and to induce NC to purchase this Riverview Farm 80 acres. By all of my research I conclude that this neighbor farm needed to indicate that it was not going to be developed for residential housing was Anchorage Farm. Therefore Anchorage Farm was the lynchpin which caused all of this agenda to be completed preventing Riverview development for the high density housing project which James Fleming wanted to put there—as seen by some. This third party of Anchorage Farm is not named per se in the Chronicles of the Conservancy but the situation is well described.
I have made inquiries of the Preserve inquiring if this third party was AF, but they either prefer not to answer the question, or don’t know. Which seems hard to believe for such historic minded people in charge of the history of this preserve.
Back in 1975 when all of this was playing out, zoning boards in this area as we know them today, were just being established. So when the zoning was denied in a series of steps, this sent James Fleming back to the drawing board with hope of obtaining the zoning he wanted—- multiple times. He was angered incrementally upon zoning rejection each time. Today, presumably we would not have had a situation where a high density housing project could be constructed in the midst of rolling and historic farmland without a lot of public comment. But because all of this zoning control was in the early stages of establishment, and the capacity of the Rivanna Reservoir was being pushed it was said and would not support this housing project, James Fleming was able to take this all personally as he seemed to see things: he had a right to develop this land however he saw fit—no matter how the public benefit would evolve years down the road. Fleming wanted to construct a project with 8 homes per acre, which was not in the same realm of what the other farms and owners wanted to see in this scene, nor evidently what the planners had in mind either.
Therein lies the problem. Private land ownership and development willy nilly, versus what the public good wants now and in the future. Urban planning, etc. and zoning control was in its infancy. Fleming took it as he was being stepped on specifically because he was AA and lashed out in the courts for many years. It is doubtful that any one else of whatever race would have been allowed to develop that high density project, for any segment of the population, imho.
For anyone interested in all of this history, I would recommend reading—- Chronicles of the Conservancy, specifically “Preservation Battleground,” “Shack Mountain” articles on the internet, and google the cases which come up with “Bedford Moore, +UVA, +Shack Mountain, +Libel, +Supreme Court.
susan- in many earlier publications, I chronicled residential/development queries in detail as it relates to AF and surrounding legacy properties. Are you suggesting that JLM was motivated because of late 1970′s rezones or historical classifications?
B
If Jesse Matthew is guilty of all he’s been accused of, then I don’t think I can buy into the idea of this whole historical connection. My primary reason is, Hannah and Morgan were not his first victims. He’s charged with the assault in Fairfax. What connection did that attack have to his family history and land they feel should be theirs? He was accused earlier of 2 assaults, one at Liberty and one at Christopher Newport. If those events were indeed attacks, what’s the connection to his family history and the properties in this area? If Jesse Matthew is guilty of 5 attacks and maybe more, I think he’s just pure evil and doesn’t need a reason other than opportunity and the desire to hurt. If the attacks here have any connection to his family history, I don’t believe Jesse Matthew is the person who makes that connection. Someone else, knowing his nature, put the idea in his head that he should go after young women in Charlottesville. I really don’t believe that is what happened. I don’t know what drove him on those 2 nights here on his home turf, but I think he was opportunistic, saw 2 young women he believed to be easy targets. Sadly, for them and their families, he was right. For reasons we may never know, they trusted their soon to be killer, went with him or were disabled out of sight of others.IMO, these young women were placed where they were, not because of events from 20, 50 or 100 years ago, but because their killer knew the properties and that he wouldn’t be easily spotted as he disposed of his victims. The Carr name came to him naturally even if he knew nothing about his family history. His mother was/is a Carr. As for choosing the name George. It’s almost as common as the name John, as in John Doe. I could be entirely wrong, but I just don’t think the killer of Hannah and Morgan has any reason for what he does other than that he sees a young woman he decides he wants, and given the right circumstances, he takes and destroys her.
@erose–Excellent.— regarding that link on Hugh Carr taking the surname Carr.
Which explains the Wingfield connection, “Woodlands,” also contains a reference to Sutherland. Also very important in that link imo is the explanation of Hugh Carr buying land from “John Shackleford,” directly relating to today’s Shack Mountain, which is one of the primary bones of contention dating from 1975.
Now we can see the family lore, that Hugh Carr bought land from John Shackleford “fair and square” and in the years that followed………1975…… the subsequent owners of Shack (Shackleford) Mountain, Bedford Moore, tried to take his property rights away from Hugh’s heirs by contesting the developer James Fleming’s plan for use of that property which Hugh bought from Shackleford.
That is the grudge. Also that AF had to agree to go along with this non-development of its land to put the Preserve in motion to develop Riverview as a preserve, not as a high density residential development.
What may be lost in this long standing grudge is that any money this extensive clan of heirs would have gotten in 1975 from Fleming’s residential property development of Riverview would be miniscule by today’s valuation standards.
Ketamine, also known as Special K, is a drug that is sometimes used recreationally to produces a sedative, amnesiac result.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_use_of_ketamine
Susan
The lands at Hydraulic that were flooded were not by accident. This was a planned reservoir that would require permits and work by licensed Civil Engineering firms. They would have obtained quad maps from the Army Core of Engineers or the Coast and Geodetic Service that show elevations of all the land within the map area. Then they would have checked those elevations for accuracy before beginning the dam.
The flooding was probably on purpose to prevent a development for housing low income people. A political accident that was sold to the people to cover the actual plan.
Rose
I am so glad to get your story regarding your daughter and the girls who desired to party with drugs and alcohol. This is another thing that parents must present to their young people when they are in college environment. This is one of the things that the youths must deal with and ignorance abounds regarding the dangers.
What is a twilight case?
Hi Leslie- I have a rule about only one hat per poster to keep the integrity and continuity of the conversation- as well as the trust factor of posters that I adhere to the rule. I changed your “hat” back to Leslie.
I referred to a twilight case for Camblos because he is due to retire, had a rough patch after his CA loss to Lunsford and in my view is looking to capitalize on the notoriety of Matthew’s representation.
B
Is it remotely possible that JLM knew Dan Harrington because he or one of his family was treated by Dr. Harrington at the UVA mental health clinic?
Could JM have known Morgan was Dr. Harrington’s daughter because of her school activities, and even approached and made himself known to her (without mentioning her father) when Morgan was in high school in Charlottesville, so that they knew each other the night he abducted her?
Are either of Morgan’s parents from old Charlottesville landed families?
No, but they did live in Cville when Morgan was a baby. The Harrington’s do not know anyone from the Matthew family and to date there is no other nexus.
B
Get down Susan!- you wrote that out like that really makes some sense-lol. I need to read it a few times.
I am not saying this is our building that ATG mentioned above- but behind the home that Hannah was found in, under Google earth, along the crick, there is what looks to be maybe a bldg or out house. Must go in and change the yr to 2008 or so where the foliage is gone to see it. I imagine LE was all over that if it still exists today. But that is the type of thing that we may be overlooking. I think there were old furnaces in that area as well. Big ones.
Susan, nice, very nice narrative.
I have no idea what the connections in all of this mean to LJM and how it all connects in his mind but there is too much history going on in this area not to play a part in these crimes.
I have not been reading up on all of this lately. I stopped when I was researching the property where Hannah was found. My brain starts to spin. I would imagine (I’m no expert, exact opposite) that LJM is compelled to commit these unspeakable acts for whatever reason drives people to do this type of crime. I could see though where the sins of the past or perceived sins of the past, give him some kind of excuse or reason.
I’m going to read the Shack Mountain information next. There was a missing woman on Carter Mountain this summer too. I was going to look to see what the proximity is between these areas.
I just wanted to give a big thank you to blink and other posters who mentioned getting the number or liscense plate of a cab when you enter it. My sister is getting her masters degree at northwestern and is often taking cabs, especially when they go into Chicago. I told her that along with the buddy system she needs to text someone the cab info when she gets in a cab and let the driver know she is doing so. I cannot tell you how happy i was when I got a text from her at 3 am this past weekend with a picture of the cab liscense plate and cab drivers name she was driving in. Ithank you blink for raising awareness and practical ideas on how we can do practical things to minimize our risks of being victims of violent crimes.
Warms my heart sunshine, thank you for sharing.
B
What is a “twilight case”? mentioned above in relation to camblos and fairfax hearing
Is there videotape online of the actual meeting on the down town mall between Jesse Matthew and Hannah Graham? If so would you please provide a link? Thank you.
no.
B
my own take on twight case was a double entendre:
last big case of one’s career, and associating with a character out
of the movie, vampires & such.
LOL LOL Rose gets me.
B
I’m still cogitating on DNA identification and how ‘hits’ and ‘near hits’ occur.
Did you know it takes over 54 hours of work to process one simple uncomplicated rape kit? That’s just if everything goes well. There is a lot of prep work between sample processing – meticulous cleaning and sanitizing, complex analysis, documentation and note-taking all the way. Here’s a great article on DNA testing – http://www.patc.com/weeklyarticles/dna-timeline.shtml
Now, I’m going to paraphrase a comment I read that may tell us something about how/when JLM was ID’d by DNA.
Comment paraphrase: ‘Let’s say hypothetically…that’s JM’s unidentified DNA, was run through the familial DNA system after it was discovered on MH’s shirt…and came back with a match to the Fairfax rape – and a partial match….to a man they arrested 4 years earlier and was now serving 4 consecutive life sentences.
All they would know at that point was that one of “this prisoners” male relatives had DNA that connected MH to Fairfax, but they wouldn’t know which male relative. (and this is a very large family, JLM has 9 uncles and many cousins just on his mother’s side).
Given the backlash in 2004, and the cries of racism when they asked the AA community for DNA… LE would be treading carefully on how they moved forward.’ (end paraphrase)
Sounds like LE may have had their ears/eyes open watching for the mysterious relative of Nathan Antonio Washington to surface and commit another heinous crime for a long time.
Here’s the thing AFG- that hypothesis is invalid because it never happened. Did not.
B
Blink, I don’t have particular knowledge of the history of other specific zoning fights over other developments in the area, other than the one I have looked up in the news archives in this case.
It is common though, for there to be a lot of hard feelings after any zoning battle, and no doubt that has also been in play in other cases.
@susan. Thank you for
“Anyway, back in 1975 there was a nasty dispute playing out in two federal courts, Virginia Supreme Court, and refused cert twice in the US Supreme Court, this fight going on for years, over this land grudge of the refusal of zoning for the AA developer Fleming’s plans for the housing development on former Riverview, neighbor to AF and Shack Mountain—Riverview is now Ivy Creek. At the end after years of fighting, there was left a $600,000 judgement of these courts against this AA developer Fleming for calling UVa professor Bedford Moore a racist in print, in two papers, one of them–The Cavalier Daily. Many articles can be found using key words, Bedford Moore, James Fleming, Shack Mountain, lawsuits, Supreme Court, libel judgement.
Interesting Point—Shack Mountain (which has its own Wikipedia Entry and multiple realtor websites on line now from its recent sale) had been owned by Bedford Moore for many years, and had just been announced as “sold” for the first time in about 50 years, on the realty website on September 10, 2014, three days before September 13, 2014 the day Hannah went missing. Jane Moore, Bedford’s wife has passed away in 2010.”
—–
I thought Truth was supposed to be a fine libel defense.
And calling a good ol white boy racist in print was worth
$600,000 in Charlottesville in the mid-70s?
I suppose if one invested in a property in the 60s, and your neighbor’s heirs
acting thru an A-A developer wanted to put up low income A-A housing in
your backyard, you’d be apoplectic, and rin for the nearest
preservationist colleague and City fathers to Get that Land and prevent
its highest & best economic use to the ownees, and saddle them with a judgment so
burdensome they could never fight City Hall & the preservationists.
——-
Fleming never stood a chance in Cville. Not only
were there few VA women attorneys in 1975, I doubt there
were any in the upper or mid echelons of the Cville judiciary
or City fathers.
——
Yes, Blink, imo this brouhaha woukd be more influential in
Christine Carr & perhaps her son’s generation than Monticello’s history.
——-
I used to go to Wintergreen a lot 25-30 years ago. My memory is
Crozet was the exit name off that highway going West. Any exit
from a major Hwy coukd be in the path of growth. I remember the -70s
between Cville & Wintergreen as growth-hopeful, but certainly not the creation
of an A-A mini suburb.