Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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Thanks for the BSA list erose. I’m just overwhelmed at the volume. Anyone know why some of the names are redacted?
wouuld this then mean that, by a process of elimination, it could be figured out who/where he actually is??
- – - –
@erose says: October 8, 2012 at 11:23 pm
For real? Rudy is a bona fide PPS employee?
vw says: October 8, 2012 at 9:14 pm
Regarding depositions of Skyline employees, etc.
It’s my understanding that if they testified in the GJ “pre-indictment” of 2010 that they were granted immunity. This would include Rudy,
oops; should have read everything first. ignore last msg.
@vw says:October 9, 2012 at 12:26 am
cd @ 10/9/12 at 3:12am
OT but needs clarification.
Respectfully, the JonBenet Ramsey case is not solved. Therefore, it cannot be used as an incidence wherein the parents were declared guilty or not, and Patsy Ramsey was never declared “innocent”.
I’m wondering if the stolen GPS in Lake Oswego early AM on 6/4/2010 had something to do with someone that was under GPS monitoring device.
Possibly a GPS splitter was used to scatter the triangulation?
Or, GPS spoofing/jamming:
“A GPS spoofing attack attempts to deceive a GPS receiver by broadcasting a slightly more powerful signal than that received from the GPS satellites, structured to resemble a set of normal GPS signals. These spoofed signals, however, are modified in such a way as to cause the receiver to determine its position to be somewhere other than where it actually is, specifically somewhere determined by the attacker. Because GPS systems work by measuring the time it takes for a signal to travel from the satellite to the receiver, a successful spoofing requires that the attacker know precisely where the target is so that the spoofed signal can be structured with the proper signal delays. A GPS spoofing attack begins by broadcasting a slightly more powerful signal that produces the correct position, and then slowly deviates away towards the position desired by the spoofer, because moving too quickly will cause the receiver to lose signal lock altogether, at which point the spoofer works only as a jammer. It has been suggested that the capture of a Lockheed RQ-170 drone aircraft in northeastern Iran in December, 2011, was the result of such an attack.[3] GPS spoofing attacks had been predicted and discussed in the GPS community previously, but no known example of a malicious spoofing attack has yet been confirmed.[4][5][6].”
Have we discussed Scott Elliot. Ex PPO charged with felonies, sexual corruption of a minor and luring a minor.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Portland-police-officer-charged-with-sex-crimes-against-a-minor-145001565.html
Wow. Things we have knowledge of and wish we didn’t?
LEO could certainly have access to 911 call tracking, records of marital issues, children in home, school information and security or non-security as the case may be, knowledge that all LE would be preoccupied on 6/4 due to funeral, expertise about GPS tracking, superior IT skills. Pedo. Highly organized.
I’m just thinking that somehow the funeral in Lake Oswego of the police chief, and the stolen GPS in that same town are tied in.
The GPS was stolen from a vehicle parked on the street where KH gym owner friend BB lives. The same gym owner that publicly announced that TMH was attempting to “abduct” her daughter and that she is not allowed on his business premises.
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Clerk-Terri-Horman-tried-to-abduct-daughter-from-gym-98346624.html
@erose
I wanted to thank you for this link, I had to go back and retrieve it because I failed to bookmark it, but anyway thanks again, I can’t wait until I ahve mroe time to read it.
http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/crimpsych/CPSG-9.htm
**********
@wpg
You brought up the little tear or peeling paper on Kyron’s project. It is interesting that the project didn’t have that little tear in the picture that Terri had on her FB taken at home(?), with all the care of needing the truck so damage wouldn’t be done, etc.
It’s also interesting that on June 5, the O ran a story with a picture of Kyron’s class project, sitting on the floor, but that part of his project was missing. No sign of it on his desk or any desk nearby. Kaine Horman was once asked about the whereabouts of the project and he said he believed LE had it because it was part of the case. I’ve always thought that curious, but it does look like maybe LE only took that part, because the other is still in the school on June 5, here:
http://photos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/06/authorities_search_for_kyron_h_16.html
and what is in that “tool holder” box? I wonder why the photographer would take a picture of that, instead of downward onto his desk showing his art and paperwork. weird.
http://photos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/06/authorities_search_for_kyron_h_14.html
@MockingbirdSings says: October 9, 2012 at 3:02 am
Snipped:
“This is very difficult to accomplish so avoidance of questioning someone you think may be guilty seems to be the usual choice.”
——-
So, who was not asked to testify based on belief that they may guilty of somthing related to this case?
T.Ruth,
Another thing I wonder about is if LE has accounted for all the brochures that were taken from the holder on Kyron’s panel display, through interviews of all that were present at the Science Fair and in particular those that were in Kyron’s classroom.
The June 5 photo shows no brochures left in the holder . . . the June 4 photos shows brochures.
@TRuth. that Toolholder box is indeed weird due to how firmly an adult (imo) taped it.
Don’t see the product online. Maybe ties for cords & cables? Packing up those computers?
Have any of you ever seen any home video footage uploaded to say youtube or any uploaded onto one of those picture sites (flickr) or any photos on anyone’s facebook pages of either any Skyline student’s science fair project or any Sklyine student’s talent show performance from June 4, 2010?
One can usually find tons of uploaded activities posted by proud parents everywhere of science projects, talent show performances, soccer games, dance recitals whatever. Could be my searching skills just aren’t working right today, but I can’t find any. One would think those activities would have been shared all over facebook (just like Terri had done), by the evening of the 4th. I mean, most folks didn’t even know Kyron was missing until the call went out until at what 5:00 ish? Oddly, hers are the only ones I’ve ever seen.
I am wondering if LE (or the school) asked parents to not post and or remove posts of said events. If LE was so sure Terri did it, there’d be no reason to do that, so IDK. Even if they did ask, when would that have been?
Maybe I just missed them, but I’ve been following this case since the beginning and do not recall seeing anyone’s photos but Terri Horman’s. Does anyone know if their were pictures of the science fair or at least the talent show included in their yearbook? I was wondering if anyone else has ever seen any or looked for any.
Jden says:
October 9, 2012 at 3:40 pm
cd @ 10/9/12 at 3:12am
OT but needs clarification.
Respectfully, the JonBenet Ramsey case is not solved. Therefore, it cannot be used as an incidence wherein the parents were declared guilty or not, and Patsy Ramsey was never declared “innocent”.
————-
-snip
Prosecutors cleared JonBenet Ramsey’s parents and brother Wednesday in the 1996 killing of the 6-year-old beauty queen, saying they were “deeply sorry” for putting the family under a cloud of suspicion for more than a decade.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25608543/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/family-cleared-jonbenet-ramseys-death/#.UHTHDbTUBFI
-snip
On July 9, 2008, nearly 12 years after their daughter’s murder, John and Patsy Ramsey were officially cleared in the death by the Boulder District Attorney’s office based on new DNA evidence collected from JonBenet’s clothing; this particular type of DNA analysis did not exist at the time of the killing.[3] Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy said new DNA tests point to an “unexplained third party” as responsible for the murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patsy_Ramsey
RS may have been given limited use immunity of the mfh, but not on the abduction of Kyron. DDS never did testify to my knowledge, and I always wondered if they did not want to offer her immunity. IIRC, Mike Cook went to family court with KH and was never called to testify. I never heard the gj part, but if true, then maybe anyone who rallied around TH after KH moved out was not called to testify due to the unwillingness of an offer of the limited immunity.
————————————————————–
limited use immunity is granted to anyone under OR statute testifying before the grand jury and is limited in scope to exactly what the individual testifies to under oath. That immunity only applies to truthful statements and is subject to perjury or impeachment, neither of which immunity would “extend.”
In some states, the prosecution is also entitled to use what is called an investigative subpoena, again, will have immunities attached, but when this is used you can pretty sure it is to gain a deposition on record, preserving the testimony, and sometimes in an effort to tie that individual to their account regardless of the direction of an investigation.
B
Portland Police Bureau, FBI, and other agencies were all called in the first night. All were there from the get go. In is not uncommon for these agencies to work together. A recent example is the presence of Mult County Sheriff detectives participating in the recovery of the body last week in Washougal Washington. I have also seen a few comments about the “School Police.” School Police would never investigate a missing child case, they take care of vandalism, theft, etc, never major crimes.
@T Ruth
I looked at those Oregonian pics and it is just depressing to look at all that uncut grass and brush
Thanks for posting
It makes one wonder how they could ever searched it all
cd, wpg, NelMel, thank you for your thoughtful responses.
cd, I remember the Ramsey case very well. Patsy was very different from TH, but I get that Patsy was not popular and that she was under investigation at some point.
NelMel wrote:
If I were being accused of being a drunken whore sloshed on the sofa each night and being a suspect in the possible murder of my stepson, in a FAMILY COURT HEARING ABOUT CUSTODY, and I could not say a thing about those accusations without having a criminal case get ALL the advantages and my divorce lawyer not being able to get ANY discovery from LE, you can bet your life I’d clam up.”
Your statement above tells me that you also believe that TH is hiding something.
I still can’t get past TH giving up her child. I don’t care if custody is going to be revisited. Having your mother as your main caregiver for the first year of your life and then not seeing her for years will effect Kiara in a very negative way and I believe TH knows this. If she is completely innocent of the mfh, Ky’s disappearance, etc., why isn’t she shouting her innocence from the rooftops?
Why does Desiree keep saying that TH has all the answers? Why does Desiree say that if she had known what was going on in that household, she would have gotten Ky out of there? Is Desiree, that far off base? I wish there was an emoticon for “I am posting with the utmost respect for blink and blinksters.”
@Erose
When I think back about all that research you did on Rudy the landscaper
Milwaukie , Camby and Wilsonville
I wonder now if Rudy ever was a landscaper
I f Terri’s remark about her landscaper
Was a private joke
January says:
October 9, 2012 at 4:54 pm
@MockingbirdSings says: October 9, 2012 at 3:02 am
Snipped:
“This is very difficult to accomplish so avoidance of questioning someone you think may be guilty seems to be the usual choice.”
——-
So, who was not asked to testify based on belief that they may guilty of somthing related to this case?
—————————
Terri and Dede are 2 who immediately come to mind. Dede was not asked any questions, we were told, although she was called to appear.
Blink – Re immunity due to testimony before a grand jury – does that extend beyond criminal charges to a civil case as well? My GUESS would be no. The GJ is not directly related to any civil action as far as I know, so I would guess the immunity wouldn’t be either. Is this correct?
It does not MBS, HOWEVER- testimony in a civil proceeding on the same subject matter can be used as evidence in a criminal trial. IE: If an individual granted limited use immunity in a GJ or criminal testimony contradicts or impeaches his /her own sworn testimony, it can be used to impeach, and MAY result in any appropriate charges with that trestimony as the prima facie. Depends on the burden of prima facie in that jurisdiction.
B
Is there a chance that if we know the answer to January’s question below, we will know who is responsible for taking Kyron? Does anyone have a list of these “possibilities”? If there is a list, research and a process of elimination could be started.
Second question: how sure (maybe I should ask “suspicious”) is anyone here that it is a member of LE who (and maybe not asked to testify…) could be responsible? Can a “process of elimination” list also be started on various LEOs?
@January says: October 9, 2012 at 4:54 pm
So, who was not asked to testify based on belief that they may guilty of somthing related to this case?
@Falstaff, The school police officer would have added some sense of security to the SF. The officer, assuming alert, would have been a potential excellent witness observing the people, cars, etc. (ie. someone paying attention and not wrapped up in their child’s project and tour.) IMO.
@Malty, I soooo remember. Did Blink write he pruned her bush? or maybe Blink wrote hedges. He is a mystery wrapped in a riddle for me.
@Monkeybunny, I had a hard time getting past TH not spilling her guts for just the hope of having visitation with her daughter. What mother wouldn’t. I am still open to the fact that she participated in Kyron’s abduction because I do not know what happened to him.
If you assume for a moment that she is innocent, and LE does not believe her, and they have a person who says she wanted her husband killed, then what possible chance does she have to prove in a family court that she did not take him? I would think her criminal lawyers are telling her she has to put the criminal case first, and everything else secondary, because what possible good would it be to win in family court and then lose in criminal court. She can’t be a hands on mom behind bars. She is between a rock and a hard place.
IF, she is innocent, then she can only hope, like the rest of us that the truth will come out. If she is guilty, then she can only hope the truth never comes out.
@TRuth, I have seen zilch. Good question.
Monkeybunny says:
October 9, 2012 at 10:46 pm
NelMel wrote:
If I were being accused of being a drunken whore sloshed on the sofa each night and being a suspect in the possible murder of my stepson, in a FAMILY COURT HEARING ABOUT CUSTODY, and I could not say a thing about those accusations without having a criminal case get ALL the advantages and my divorce lawyer not being able to get ANY discovery from LE, you can bet your life I’d clam up.”
Your statement above tells me that you also believe that TH is hiding something.
——————
I believe that terri is absolutely hiding something because she feels it necessary to use the 5th amendment in order to protect herself from any criminal charges that could be filed against her if she reveals whatever she is holding back from law enforcement. But what is she hiding.
Does she fear charges in MFH which could carry the same penalties as though the MFH had been carried out.
Was there some activity that she was carrying out at the time of Kyron’s disappearance that was illegal. so she does not want to reveal her true whereabouts or what she doing that morning.
Was she involved in a relationship or some activity that would make her seem to be or in fact be in some way responsible for what happened to Kyron.
Did she actually initiate or participate in a plot to remove Kyron from the school.
We just don’t know thats why I think that the 5th amendment thing is the million dollar question here.
As far as her clamming up to the press and LE even to the exclusion of seeing her daughter i think she is doing this on the advice of her attorney. Her legal team must believe that even if TH did come clean with whatever she is unwilling to talk about the RO would still be in place and she still would not be able to see her little girl anyway . So i don’t see her silence as for sure evidence that she did something nefarious with Kyron. But i do believe she fears something bad will happen if she starts talking to LE.
I think this is a standoff between LE and TH and LE is playing a waiting game to get whatever answers they seek whether it is convict TH for kidnapping Kyron or some other crime they went to charge TH with. I think if LE truly believed TH knew where Kyron was for the sake of the Kyron and and to end Desiree’s grief at not knowing what happened to her son LE would offer TH a plea deal.
I also don’t think she will be anymore willing to answer whatever question she is avoiding by threatening to invoke her 5th amendment rights in the course of Desiree’s civil complaint and trial then she is now.
cd says:
October 10, 2012 at 3:41 am
I think this is a standoff between LE and TH and LE is playing a waiting game to get whatever answers they seek whether it is convict TH for kidnapping Kyron or some other crime they went to charge TH with. I think if LE truly believed TH knew where Kyron was for the sake of the Kyron and to end Desiree’s grief at not knowing what happened to her son LE would offer TH a plea deal.
————-
In some ways TH’s silence actually makes it seem to me that there is a good chance that she made no deliberate action to disappear Kyron. If TH is an evil person capable of getting rid of Kyron then why would she not speak to LE and just lie about whatever she is hiding. Since LE does not have enough evidence to charge TH anyway how could they prove she was lying. i would think that after kidnapping lying under oath would be easy enough.
IMO there is something she knows that she will not reveal that she is not willing to even lie about it. Must be some kind of big secret. because she has gone to great lengths to keep her silence.
@January says: October 9, 2012 at 4:54 pm
So, who was not asked to testify based on belief that they may guilty of somthing related to this case?
IRC…Carol and Larry did testify. Kaine did. Dede was called, but did not. TMH did Not. And MC did not.
The principal and Kyron’s teacher, Ms. Porter, did testify.
The “neuro doctor/pediatrician” of Kyron? I don’t think so. DY and Ty…not sure, but don’t think so.
However…anyone on the FM X 2 list and Starbucks and the gym …yes.
So…anyone who might be able to testify against TMH….a priorty?
But….anyone connected to the school that morning: the “key?” chaperone, the “man” that was seen, the other teachers or staff or kyron’s friends and parents…don’t think so.
The movement into the GJ was nearly devoid of the movement of perps, adjuncts to the school, as well as friends, relatives, neighbors or KH’s network of drinking buddies down by SI (DAD?) or foes of the Kyron family IIRC.
By the second month, I think LE could not see the forest for the trees. And the “things we would wish not to know bcame things we would never hear of again.
Monkeybunny says:
October 9, 2012 at 10:46 pm
(snipped)
Your statement above tells me that you also believe that TH is hiding something.
I still can’t get past TH giving up her child. I don’t care if custody is going to be revisited. Having your mother as your main caregiver for the first year of your life and then not seeing her for years will effect Kiara in a very negative way and I believe TH knows this. If she is completely innocent of the mfh, Ky’s disappearance, etc., why isn’t she shouting her innocence from the rooftops?
Why does Desiree keep saying that TH has all the answers? Why does Desiree say that if she had known what was going on in that household, she would have gotten Ky out of there? Is Desiree, that far off base? I wish there was an emoticon for “I am posting with the utmost respect for blink and blinksters.”
——————————————————————–
Generally I believe that everyone in this case is hiding something. Key word there: “everyone.”
I do not trust KH. I do not trust anyone in this case because I have nothing to work with. After more than 2 years, without any arrests, this case is for me obviously so complex and so maddeningly vague that I think TH could have been framed, I think this could be a very sophisticated custody-war scam, I think that TH might have been the target on 6/4/10 instead of Kyron initially, I think that TH could have planned a MFH and then backed out of it, I think some spurned lover could have been a dumbass and completely misunderstood her comments….I think a lot of different possibilities. Not one scenario has been fleshed out, and I think this is a cold case now.
TH did “shout from the rooftops” about her innocence. Just not to us, and not on national television. And we have absolutely no idea what has occurred between her and her lawyer and LE since she moved to Roseburg. No one is saying anything about this case, except for the parents and their occasional interviews which never reveal any concrete information.
Jden says:
October 9, 2012 at 3:40 pm
cd @ 10/9/12 at 3:12am
OT but needs clarification.
Respectfully, the JonBenet Ramsey case is not solved. Therefore, it cannot be used as an incidence wherein the parents were declared guilty or not, and Patsy Ramsey was never declared “innocent”.
************
Patsy Ramsey was declared innocent
http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/07/09/12-years-later-dna-evidence-clears-jonbenet-ramseys-family-patsy-john-burke-of-childs-death/
erose says:
October 9, 2012 at 1:52 am
The boy scout list to post if permissible:
http://kosnoff.com/BSA-perversion-by-name.pdf
**********************************************************************Is it ludacris for me to assume that all of these convicted perverts have made a statewide sex offender registry somewhere?
It wasn’t until 1994, a federal statute called the Jacob Wetterling Act required all states to pass legislation requiring sex offenders to register with state sex offender registries. Then again in 1996, “Megan’s Laws,” the federal government required states to pass legislation mandating public notification of personal information for certain sex offenders.
And what about the pervs on the Boy Scout files that were accused – but no court action was taken? They just get to live their lives free and hurt children over and over again? Where is the enforcment of protection for our children? Disgusting!!!
Once convicted and added to the sex offender registry – is the registry permanent? Meaning it can not and will not ever be expunged?
@Falstaff. I agree. School police are not crime investigators. I did not say tgey were. In fact my Manual reading says PPB Detectives should’ve been called in 6/4.
My reading of the PPB Manual says Portland Police Officers have not only jurisdiction but also the leadership role over crime on any property owned by Portland Public Schools wherever situated. . If by common agreement a PPB surrenders that jurisdiction by mutual agreement to MCSO on properties such as Skyline, that’s fine, but the public should have been told by PPB Press Release early on.
Agreed.
B
Monkeybunny says:
October 9, 2012 at 10:46 pm
Your statement above tells me that you also believe that TH is hiding something.
I still can’t get past TH giving up her child. I don’t care if custody is going to be revisited. Having your mother as your main caregiver for the first year of your life and then not seeing her for years will effect Kiara in a very negative way and I believe TH knows this. If she is completely innocent of the mfh, Ky’s disappearance, etc., why isn’t she shouting her innocence from the rooftops?
Why does Desiree keep saying that TH has all the answers? Why does Desiree say that if she had known what was going on in that household, she would have gotten Ky out of there? Is Desiree, that far off base? I wish there was an emoticon for “I am posting with the utmost respect for blink and blinksters.”
@monkeybunny – I’m with you on this. I can’t get past that either, so I’m hoping that Desiree’s civil trial will shed some light on what the situation really was at the time Kyron disappeared. Even so, we may not see what actual evidence there is unless the DA finally brings indictments regarding the MFH and/or Kyron’s disappearance. If he does not, LE isn’t talking and TH isn’t talking. It could stay that way for years, if not forever. I just want Kyron found, even if no-one is ever charged in his disappearance.
@everyone – back to the MFH sting. It was a disaster. We’ve discussed this before, but maybe it’s time to look at that again. Did LE really want or think that Terri would incriminate herself when RS showed up at the door (with a stranger accompanying him to boot)? Was there another reason that the sting took place? Was there anything to be gleaned that would shed some light on Kyron’s disappearance? Did LE know the sting would look bad on them, but they didn’t care because they were after something else?
Isn’t the statute of limitations for Murder for Hire (MFH) 5 years? Remember when Kaine said it may take 5 years to find Kyron? If Terri’s attorneys are able to drag this out for 5 years, does that mean that the DA will not be able to use the MFH against Terri in court in regards to Kyron’s case?
Sorry if this has already been discussed.
no statute of limitations, it is is equal to murder.
B
interesting PPB Forensics Dept 20 1 0 Report
http://www.portlandonline.com/police/index.cfm?a=345098&c=53671
wonder if the one set of latents/ kidnapping were at Skyline?
Capt Babnick was last Captn of School Police Dept before it was dissolved.
Interesting professional
Does anyone believe that LE has +anything+ on Terri to morally keep this standoff going? Shy of Rudy taking and passing a polygraph, what do they have? They are feeding Desiree’s painful fire by showing her the nasty emails, they have contributed to why Kaine wants a divorce, and have kept Terri (in a sense, via attorney-concern/advise) from seeing her child for over two years. If it turns out this woman is completely innocent, and a random SO took Kyron, wow!
RedRose: The only two names I know of (via here at Blink) with interest to this case, who were not asked to testify before the GJ were Dede and Cook. Who else?
What I can’t understand is if you take part in a plan for
Having your husband killed
Why stay there and wait for months
How could she trust someone not to come and do it in front of the children
I can see maybe she gave Kyron away
To someone so he would not be there
If she thought a killer was coming
But it is a mystery
Why she didn’t just take Kiara and move out
Kaine’s stuff would have gone to his kids
Not her
Is that right ???? Somebody
If Kaine did not put the house or car in her name
Would he put on his insurance ?
Put her on his insurance I mean
Then his retirement is another issue
They were not married that long
Anyone know this stuff
Because Kaine believed so fast in the MFH
Leads me to believe that durning their fights
“I wish you were dead” must have been said
According to this reporter, Kate Mather of the O, Dede testified before the GJ. (Don’t know if it’s true, but she says she did.) Scroll down to the report by Kate Mather on pg. 2.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2012/09/11/kyron-horman-disappearance-series-part-i-desiree-young-v-terri-horman-civil-as-an-oxymoron/#comments
Falstaff says:
October 9, 2012 at 9:15 pm
Portland Police Bureau, FBI, and other agencies were all called in the first night. All were there from the get go. In is not uncommon for these agencies to work together. A recent example is the presence of Mult County Sheriff detectives participating in the recovery of the body last week in Washougal Washington. I have also seen a few comments about the “School Police.” School Police would never investigate a missing child case, they take care of vandalism, theft, etc, never major crimes.
———————————–
School police (for PPS now) are a well-trained part of the PPB with a regular officer’s background as a minimum, but there are so few of them that if they took on a major case there would be no one to do their regular work, including establishing relationships with kids. It’s doubtful they would have skills to take on major crimes and then could be spared but the PPB to become an SRO.
I wonder how often the SRO was at Skyline and for how many years. It is not unusual for SRO’s in a high school to get confidential tips from kids with whom they have established a trust relationship – things they wouldn’t always tell a parent or teacher or a police officer they didn’t know – or the visiting counselors they also didn’t know. I wonder if the SRO at Skyline was given a chance to let kids know she (I think it was “she”) was available to talk if they wanted to.
Here’s another personal story but also an example –
One of my students was raped on her way to school. When she got away, she ran on to our office which was the safest place she could think of. Kids saw her come in and were upset and angry about it, of course, and wanted to help. Because it wasn’t confidential by then, the school put out an announcement for kids’ safety and to request information, suggesting they come to me as one option. Another student came to me with her story. She had been attacked about 6 PM on a Sunday evening walking home from the bus stop, but got away when he fell over a chain to the school parking lot. She didn’t tell her parents or anyone she thought might tell her parents because they would never have allowed her out of the house alone again, she said. The 2 stories were remarkably hair-on-the-back-of-your-neck similar. She agreed to tell the SRO if he would not tell her parents, and she gave a description. (I got her to agree to talk to an older brother and make a plan not to be walking alone again, and made sure she did.) Unfortunately, this man went on to murder a 12 year old girl at a bus stop on her way to school before some other girls also came forward with their stories and he was finally caught using all the information. Basically, it was the combination of what kids contributed that caught this guy – something I will never forget.
My point is that fear is not the only reason kids don’t tell things and when they do tell, they are often very careful who they tell. Kids often know more than you think – many adults will talk and assume kids aren’t listening or don’t know what they are talking about, but often they do. Kids also know who makes them feel uncomfortable or when something is just “not right” even if they don’t have the vocabulary to explain. Obviously, you have to know how to interview and sort out what kids say, but there is always value in listening to them.
Mockeybunny says:
“I am posting with the utmost respect for blink and blinksters.”
It does seem pretty one sided around here? Few weeks ago all I said was James would be testifying and I got my hand slapped. If James was well enough to enter the armed forces, he would be testifying. I’ve seen five year old children testify about being raped? Right, James wouldn’t testify because he was “sensitive.” There isn’t a right or wrong side here. People are either involved or not. Terri hasn’t seen her daughter for two years, hired three lawyers, none of whom have come out to defend her, or got her daughter back. The woman is involved, none of this would have happened without Terri Horman at the wheel, but not allowed to even hint at it here? Why is that? Cases take time, do you watch court tv, ever notice how long it takes to take a big case to trial? Years. So, yes she is still walking around, hiding in plain sight with no life, no husband, no kids, no money, no job, in spite of that “masters,” sorry had to say it, and so are some others that are involved in this tragedy, out, walking around.
Falstaff- that is simply a misrepresentation. I ask for facts or verified information to be considered and meaningful and progressive discussion of same.
B
interesting case, Judd Johnson, an el ed teacher sex abuser of at least 7young males in Lake Oswego, was just transferred around 3 el eds until 1 mother refused an Administrator’s keep quiet request.
http://courts.oregon.gov/Publications/docs/a140979.htm
Feb ’12 PPB received initial calls from Skyline re bus touching.
imo Prin Wood called PPB because he was supposed to:
http://www.kgw.com/news/Investigation-underway-at-Skyline-School-138911854.html
While it was later said PPB Child Abuse Unit was continuing as kids were under 14, mcso had a detective (O’Donnell) on that Unit — mcso works with this Unit on other crimes.
PPB repr loaned to mcso task force in Oct 2010 is pulled off at the first year anniversary http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/06/kyron_horman_task_force_to_dis.html?mobRedir=false. State Police come off too. maybe there’s a “you break it, you own it” attitude over & above budget issues. So the issue of PPB participation at all has been moot for over a year.
wasn’t this article’s Det Kavfre Kyron’s lead Task Force detective? and didn’t Gresham decline to participate in it? http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-2761-swimming_with_sharks.html
in 2001, training and grants subsidize PPS PD:
http://efiles.portlandoregon.gov/webdrawer/rec/2451676/view/City%20Auditor%20-%20City%20Recorder%20-%20Council%20Ordinance%20-%20175526.PDF
http://efiles.portlandoregon.gov/webdrawer/rec/2451563/view/City%20Auditor%20-%20City%20Recorder%20-%20Council%20Ordinance%20-%20175414.PDF
I found a memo this am where in about 2002 PPS dissolved their 15 man (plus 4-5 admin) PPS School Police by turning them over to PPB in the early 2000s, by Intergovernmental Agreement between Portland City & PPS, but I didn’t save url & can’t refind it this afternoon.
will you write on Ridgeway?
I am struck by how quickly that le cleared the parents
and moved to stranger danger.
parents were in acrimonious custody battle, but each said the other
was incapable of and pointed le in right direction. maybe no assets were involved.
mother seems treated in a not-on-all-fours manner by Christine, too.
but not blamed by le/media.
was PPD history why Kaine did not so avow re Terri, or was it mcso driving
a wedge with mfh assurances?
OOOps, sorry, duh, wrong link for Kate Mather’s report:
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/07/kyron_horman_update_july_30th.html
Rose says:
October 10, 2012 at 6:21 pm
snipped
I found a memo this am where in about 2002 PPS dissolved their 15 man (plus 4-5 admin) PPS School Police by turning them over to PPB in the early 2000s, by Intergovernmental Agreement between Portland City & PPS, but I didn’t save url & can’t refind it this afternoon.
———————————
It was a financial decision. The proposal was on the table a few times and removed before it finally happened.
As I recall, PPB offered to consider hiring those who were interested in joining them, but they had to qualify as a police officer and then go through the same selection process – no guarantees they would be assigned to the School Division. I worked in what was the most troubled school at that particular time. I can’t tell you how many times they helped us deal with gangs, weapons, drugs, outside threats, child abuse, etc. in the building, at sports events, community events, funerals – everything. If we had a concern, they were there. I NEVER felt that level of security after they disbanded the PPS School Police Department. The PPB attitude and organizational culture is different.
Some of us tried to get the Board to reconsider, but statistically, we were a very small part of the district, and socially, unfortunately, let’s just say our community was not high on most people’s list of priorities.
Geez – this is getting to be SO depressing. …turn on the news, hear about another sex offender. Read here, sex offenders right and left. It really makes one wonder what kind of upbringing some of these pervs had that they have turned into Yuck-o-Stink-o types. Even in LE, schools, gyms. Sooo depressing.
I always wonder if there is any way for the young victims to be well-adjusted later in life.
Sorry, just very depressing to read all of this stuff, and then to think that maybe Kyron got caught in something like this (along with so many other children) … well, I’m bummed.
Springfield Police search for attempted abduction suspect
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49367586/
(snipped)
SPRINGFIELD, Ore. (KMTR) — Springfield Police are looking for a man accused of trying to kidnap a seven year old girl.
Police say the girl is OK after the abduction attempt which happened Tuesday afternoon, October 9th, 2012, near a small Springfield park.
“This person comes up from behind her and grabs her by the arm and she screams, there’s several other independent witnesses in the neighborhood that actually saw the suspect running away,” said Sgt. Dave Lewis of the Springfield Police Department.
The attempted abduction happened around 4 p.m. Police say the girl was playing by herself outside by Tyson Park in the 3500 block of E Street, near 36th Street.
(snipped)
Springfield Police are still looking for the suspect. He’s described as a white man in his mid-20’s with an average build. He was last seen wearing a green shirt, tan shorts and a camouflage baseball hat. Police say the man was also carrying a black duffle bag.
IIRC, a little classmate of Kyron’s did testify. All by himself. His parent(s) were not allowed in. That shocked me. It was in a KOIN report and it is gone, which is not a bad thing. I also think that report is the reason that the Judge put a stop to all the cameras photographing people going in and out of the GJ.
Kaine, Desiree & Tony, I believe all testified before the GJ, as did Keefer and two other teachers. Many, many of Terri’s friends were called in and gym employees and two barristas from a Starbucks.
Also, here’s another report (August 10, 2010) that says Spicher testified:
“According to reports, it was a tip from Spicher that may have sparked this latest search, which follows Spicher’s grand jury testimony, as well as that of other close friends of Terri Horman’s. Kyron’s parents and grade school principal also appeared in court last week. The grand jury is expected to hear from more witnesses this week.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500202_162-6756217.html
Some are mentioned here, at Justice Quest.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Z3q3ajzjPlgJ:www.justicequest.net/forums/showthread.php%3Fp%3D768203+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
************
BTW, what I meant was, had the School Resource Officer been there that day, assigned to keep an eye out in a very public atmosphere, it may have made a difference. Police Officers are trained to notice things, it’s their job. My B.I.L. was a cop and he was always noticing things none of us would, not to mention how involved the teachers and parents would have been just keeping up with their children and the projects. None of them were looking out for a perv. I mean, the kid vanished without anyone seeing him actually leave. Anyone.
Also, no matter who took Kyron that day, just seeing a police car outside the building might have put a stop to the perps plan. I don’t think it’s a bad policy to have the SRO at the school when it’s a public event, I have to wonder, would she have been there, if it had not been for the funeral. Would this science fair have been the type of thing she would go to the school for? That’s my question.
Regarding timelines and TMH and KH,I see: Daughter: Kiara Horman, born Dec. 8, 2008
Then KH and TMH discover a few months later (February 2009) that Kaine’s brother is arrested for molestation (by the way, do PERVs care if they are molesting a little boy or a little girl? Probably not…)
Maybe this was a big surprise to TMH and things started to blow up about that time – new baby, crappy family of inlaws, etc., maybe KH never told her any of this. And she can’t suddenly leave him with a new baby and no other means of support. And in the year after, things may have just gotten worse. Kyron would have heard a lot of the arguments as would James.
Anyway, that is all just wondering. But there is something else I wondered about. Is there a possibility that Unka K was molested himself or how is it that he would ‘suddenly’ become a molester of others? And if he WAS molested when he was little, what is the possibility that KH would ALSO have been molested (maybe now desperately afraid for that information to come out — all MOO). And maybe TMH was really scared for Kyron that he could end up being a victim of a family member, too?
all moo.
http://www.examiner.com/article/seattle-kyron-horman-s-uncle-arrested-child-molestation-2nd-polygraph-for-stepmom-video
They further reported that Kristian was originally arrested in February 2009 for third-degree child molestation in the October 2008 case of his 15-year-old stepdaughter. He was released on parole and not in custody until being convicted and booked into jail June 16.
Maybe she doesn’t realize that she has already lost her daughter forever, and no matter what she does, she won’t ever see that baby again.
@cd says: October 10, 2012 at 4:08 am
cd says:October 10, 2012 at 3:41 am
IMO there is something she knows that she will not reveal that she is not willing to even lie about it. Must be some kind of big secret. because she has gone to great lengths to keep her silence.
This will probably duplicate itself, but I can’t get it out of the “Leave a comment” box here.
Maybe she doesn’t realize that she has already lost her daughter forever, and no matter what she does, she won’t ever see that baby again.
@cd says: October 10, 2012 at 4:08 am
cd says:October 10, 2012 at 3:41 am
IMO there is something she knows that she will not reveal that she is not willing to even lie about it. Must be some kind of big secret. because she has gone to great lengths to keep her silence.
The other day I was reviewing the presser where LE was asking for people to come forward if they saw the Horman truck at NW Springville & NW Skyline roads. At one point, Underhill(?) says between 10:15 & 10:30. They showed the intersection of the two roads. I thought to myself what a small time period, maybe he meant to say 11:30? So I looked at that area, there is trail head at that area. Here’s a description of the trail, written February 27, 2010:
http://portlandwalking.blogspot.com/2010/02/forest-bridge-and-lunch-hike.html
Is it possible someone saw a white truck parked at the trail head at that time? Anyway, the mention of the man-whole cover thing, gave the creeps. Anyone remember if this specific trail area was ever searched?
Re DeDe and the Grand Jury reports – since the jury is not allowed to talk about the proceedings and the DA/LE won’t, only the person being questioned or his or her attorney can share information if they choose to. Therefore, it seems that only the quotes from DeDe’s attorney re testifying at the GJ should be taken as most likely to be true if there is any discrepancy. For what it’s worth:
Attorney: DeDe Spicher cooperating with police
By Thom Jensen KATU News and KATU.com StaffPublished: Aug 11, 2010 at 6:05 PM PDT Last Updated: Aug 11, 2010 at 6:48 PM PDT
Terri Horman’s friend, DeDe Spicher, is cooperating with the police and is telling them the truth, her attorney Chad Stavley said Wednesday outside the Multnomah County Courthouse while working on an unrelated case.
“This is going to be up to the district attorney to look at DeDe Spicher and figure out what her criminal culpability is in this whole affair and decide, is she worth giving up in order to get someone else?” McCain said.
By giving up, McCain means forcing Spicher to testify and give up her right to silence. So far she has not given one word of testimony to the grand jury investigating Kyron’s disappearance.
“DeDe Spicher will not testify before the grand jury now without a grant of immunity from the lead prosecutor,” McCain said. “That’s becoming more and more clear as each day goes by.” If Spicher is forced to testify to the grand jury she will be granted immunity.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100490074.html
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Missing boy’s parents testify before grand jury
By Thom Jensen KATU News and KATU.com StaffPublished: Aug 2, 2010 at 7:25 PM PDT Last Updated: Aug 2, 2010 at 8:44 PM PDT
(snipped)
DeDe Spicher, a close friend of Kyron’s stepmother, Terri Horman, was asked to testify before the grand jury last week but never actually spoke to jurors.
KATU News has been told that Spicher is now talking to detectives, but it is not known if she will be called back to testify before the grand jury.
If she is forced to talk, she would be granted immunity under Oregon law.
The grand jury in this case could hear testimony for weeks or months and it could also hand off the case to a new grand jury.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/99809809.html
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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 12:15:34 AM by GD
By Gina Gomez
July 27, (THAINDIAN NEWS) A friend of the stepmother of the seven-year-old missing boy Kyron Horman appeared in front of a grand jury on Monday in the case of the disappearance of the boy. An attorney of DeDe Spicher revealed to the media that the woman was subpoenaed to meet the jury in the courthouse at Portland in the state of Oregon.
While revealing details of the meeting of DeDe Spicher with the panel in the Portland courthouse, her attorney Chad Stavley stated that it was a preliminary session that lasted for a short while adding that she might face the jury once again. The lawyer further went on to say that the prosecutors did not ask any specific questions to his client pertaining to the case but asked her to return at a future date.
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world/friend-of-kyron-hormans-stepmother-meets-grand-jury-investigating-his-disappearance_100402681.html
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“extra”
July 23rd, 2010 By JAMES PITKIN | News | Kyron Horman Update: DeDe Spicher Wasn’t Cooperative With Us Either
http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-852-kyron_horman_update_dede_spicher_wasnt_cooperative.html
Falstaff says: October 10, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Snipped: “The woman is involved, none of this would have happened without Terri Horman at the wheel, but not allowed to even hint at it here? Why is that?”
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Falstaff, you must not read my posts, lol.
I perpetually hop the fence regarding Terri. At times, I think Terri must be culpable of something (and freely saying so here) and then without notice, I jump to not being able to fathom her being involved. Where I sit most comfortably is right on top of the fence, believing she knows something about why Kyron was taken, but not being responsible for the act itself. Then again, at other times… lol… I wonder if it was a just random SO…
Everybody here, as far as I read (and I have been for a long time) has their own opinions. Some change, as mine do, others not so much. Either way, we post our suspicions/theories and sometimes other posters can provide insight to why we might be wrong. Our common denominator is finding Kyron, and bringing the correct perp to justice.
IMO, I seriously doubt anybody was slapping your hand, but rather bantering as to why or why not your theory holds weight in their opinion.