Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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@cd. all it would take for strict silence would be Houze saying ” one peep & I’m outta here” and “the last time you didn’t follow my directions to stay home and tried to put one over, look where it got you.” That said, I admit to surprise she has complied 2 years now.
Here is a report that says Dede did not testify at the GJ. I guess its much like a lot of reporting in this case it depends on who is reporting so the answer is not real clear. Or maybe they did call her back and she testified the second time.
-snip
Grand jury proceedings are not open to the public or the media. However, Spicer’s attorney did confirm that his client was subpoenaed to testify but did not give any testimony under oath Monday. He said she could be called back to testify in the future.
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/DeDe-Spicher-testifies-before-grand-jury-99252004-kyron-horman-missing-portland.html
@TRuth, As of August 11, 2010, says DDS did not testify. I do think she was speaking with police and perhaps that is where the “tip” came from, and the reporter did not get it straight. Otherwise I am confused.
snip>
“This is going to be up to the district attorney to look at DeDe Spicher and figure out what her criminal culpability is in this whole affair and decide, is she worth giving up in order to get someone else?” McCain said.
By giving up, McCain means forcing Spicher to testify and give up her right to silence. So far she has not given one word of testimony to the grand jury investigating Kyron’s disappearance.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100490074.html
@Rose says:
October 10, 2012 at 8:43 pm
There are similarities to this case in Jessica Ridgway’s case. Custody battle, missing on the way to school. Yes.
@T. Ruth says:October 11, 2012 at 6:05 pm
Yes, totally creepy, spooky and scary. Forest Park is such a large area that – if anything did happen anywhere there – nobody would be found unless someone led them directly to the actual spot, or a person was accidently found.
“Accidental ‘finding’” happens out here in hunting season and by outdoor nature lovers/hikers. Otherwise, chances are slim to none.
I don’t know where the quote is, but waaay back, someone interviewed Ann Rule (author of these kinds of stories) and she said that – especially women – could be expected to NEVER tell if they are involved in anything.
Old Springville and NW Germantown Road are both fairly well traveled roads (but very steep and winding roads) from Skyline down toward northwest Portland, Sauvie Island, and back to Cornelius Pass and Sheltered Nook Road. If you take the little orange man from the Google maps along any of those roads, you’ll see just how overgrown everything is. Wasn’t it Old Germantown Road where DDS was gardening that day? West Wind Farms, 1300 NW Old Germantown Rd.
Portland, OR 97231 (By the way, did DDS lose her job there? –or was she working for someone else at the time?)
Older stuff to read: http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8354.200
Sorry – all over the place with this. There’s an answer here somewhere, but I sure don’t know where to look. Don’t know who is responsible for what.
@MBS- This may have already been brought up because im a little behind in reading (I’m newly pregnant and just exhausted
) In the interview with Kim Holm she talks about getting a phone call that Kyron did not get off the bus that day, so it does appear that Skyline Parents did receive the call.
(snipped)
“And the teacher said, ‘I thought he left with his mom,’ because they thought they had a doctor appointment,” Kim Holm said. “And then at lunchtime – Kurtis ate lunch with him every day – he wasn’t there at lunchtime. And then I got a call at 4:30ish, saying he didn’t get off the bus, I guess. And Kurtis said, ‘Oh yeah, I knew he was already gone all day, Mom.’”
(snipped) http://www.komonews.com/news/local/98987454.html
MockingbirdSings says:
October 7, 2012 at 12:03 pm
(snipped)
I have assumed since the auto-dialer was not set up for Skyline that NO Skyline families got a call about Kyron. At one point, I heard a PPS person say they did not actually intend to send it to the whole district. Maybe when they realized the auto-dialer was not set up for Skyline, someone decided sending to all might reach some if they had kids in other schools (transfers, upper grades) – but I doubt they stopped to analyze much.
(snipped)
“After losing her son, mother finds strength fighting child abuse”
By Thom Jensen KATU News Published: Oct 11, 2012 at 11:00 PM PDT
[Her twins were 11 weeks old. One survived.]
“One of the district attorneys started asking me, ‘have you heard of this website? Have you heard of this website? Dream Catchers For Abused Children? Have you ever heard of Father Hates Infant?’” she recounted. “He started telling me all of these terms. At first I looked confused, and then he told me these were all on Kaliq’s computer, and I remember screaming and crying and saying ‘no! This can’t! No!’ Then I think I actually almost fell on the ground because I didn’t want to believe he was capable of this.”
She has also found a new cause: fighting against child abuse along with her Portland attorney, Tara Lawrence.
“You never think it’s going to happen to you. Not me. This happens to other people. It doesn’t happen to people like me,” Foster said. “But the reality is it does. It happens to all walks of life.”
“Her family’s case perfectly demonstrates the fact that child abuse knows no boundaries,” said Lawrence, a former Sherman County district attorney. “It does not fit into neat categories. It moves across all social and economic lines. There are no ethnic or cultural boundaries.”
http://www.katu.com/news/local/After-losing-her-son-mother-finds-strength-fighting-child-abuse-Kaliq-Mansor-173798221.html
I’m assuming the purpose of creating and looking at these web sites is to set up a “world” for yourself in which you pretend you are not wrong, abusive, criminal, etc.? I support free speech in general, but this is not “free” – it’s paid for by innocent victims. Is this not a hate crime?
Yes, erose, it is confusing about whether or not Dede testified, or anyone else, once the media was not allowed in. I just thought I’d point out two later stories that said she had. Personally, I don’t think McCain was privy to such information either, but who knows. Clear as mud, just like the rest of this case.
FWIW it was Underhill who initially said along those roads between 10:15 and 10:30. However, I see the published story says that LE has now corrected those times. Hmmmm? Did Underhill make a Freudian slip up? Did someone see a white pick up parked at that trail head then? Were they trying to see if anyone else saw a white pick up there, but didn’t want to give them the exact time? Hmmm?
@Red Rose. rhetorical re Forest Park’s geographic feature “wildness”l: So why did this abduction happen then at Skyline rather than Forest Park, a larger school & presumeably more chaotic during a Sci Fair. Either the abductor has a nexus to Skyline, or it was obviously at a walkin glance Forest Park was controlled on sight in 2010 (visitor sign in, name tags)
OT. I’ll take a guess Blink has not written on Ridgeway to platform us to find every local SO & recent prison releasee, and police have ruled out a WY link (which looked good to me), because LE is pretty sure which local SO did it & don’t want to alert him yet in the media.
I am struck with how similar his profile may be to pur SZ, except there’s not the cyber proficiency, and he appears more disorganized (public bookbag dump) and desireous of being caught.
I suppose it’s easier for already divorced or never married bios to hang together, and much easier with no stepmom and rival siblings (for parental attention) in picture. I wish the BAU profiling had been published by investigators in Kyron’s case. I wonder if it fit mcso’s theory or not.
@Blink. About that sworn testimony in grand jury with same persons being called in DY’s Civil trial again offering sworn testimony in both and the jeopardy that may attach if memories over 2 years apart conflict (and that’s how memories work). Conflicts can be used for later impeachment (in a criminal trial) or worst (perjury).’it seems to me this is a problem for every witness testifying at both — from Kaine to Ledecky to Starbucks employee to gym rats, etc.
that’s the problem with grand jury witnesses testifying in a divorce trial too.
probably why Cook was not called to Grand Jury.
strategically probably decided he was a weak witness, therefore would more easily vary & be impeachable.
So better to deploy him in divorce trial where he is central, rather than grand jury where he is negligible, so every word he says under oath can be broadcast by media rather than be kept under wraps.
Adam Brown sentenced to 33 years for Portland sexual attack
http://www.nrtoday.com/news/2805416-113/brown-attack-guilty-sexual
This piece of garbage better not get out early on parole. I don’t see anything about no possibility of parole here, and this:
***”A prosecutor said he believes the 50-year-old Brown, who has HIV, won’t live long enough to be released again.
“This amounts to a life sentence, given that he’s 50 and that he’s in poor health because of his HIV status,” Multnomah County Deputy District Attorney Donald Rees said.***
is exactly what happened that allowed him to get out on parole in the first place. I understand not wanting to put the victim through the trial, but I sure hope this plea deal comes with ZERO parole, I don’t care if he’s 82 1/2 when/if it comes up.
back to thinking about who was called to GJ and actually questioned under oath. Don’t you think even back then DA’s strategy was a civil trial first? They wanted people whose testimony they did not want impeached and whose info they wanted in media to be testifying at a civil trial only
(cook, spicher) only, imo.
was RS really questioned by GJ or did he just show up like DD? If he was questioned, imo GJ would’ve focused on Kyron’s abduction, not mfh which was not substantiated and which mightve risked perjury charges for him, and ranged wide into his motivation as well as hers. I don’t know that DA wanted that. I think RS too was saved for a civil trial. One was pending (Kaine’s divorce) when GJ was meeting
One more post about the story I posted last. This mother’s comments about her feeling of guilt reminded me of some of Desiree’s statements.
http://www.oregonlive.com/tigard/index.ssf/2012/09/mother_testifies_at_metzger_da.html
Bryan was the fussier of the twins, Foster testified. In response to the babies’ crying, Mansor made some that statements struck her as inappropriate, she said. But she chalked them up to his coping with the stress of caring for two infants.
On several occasions, he said, “Hahaha, babies can be put in microwaves,” she testified. “I found it very upsetting, but I let it go. I didn’t understand why that would be funny, but I let it go.”
Foster said she once saw him covering the mouth of one of the babies who was crying during a diaper changing. She told him to stop, but he said the baby was fine because he could still breathe.
Sometimes, when Mansor was alone with the babies on a different floor of the house, Foster testified, she heard her sons quit crying abruptly. The quieting was once so abrupt, she said, it startled her from a nap.
In the last month of Bryan’s life, Mansor and Foster were digging up their backyard as part of a landscaping project. Responding to Bryan’s fussiness, Mansor made a comment she attributed at the time to his “sick sense of humor,” she said.
“He said he could throw Bryan in the backyard, in the dirt,” she testified.
She told detectives about other questionable statements she recalled, she said, but not this one. Crying, she told jurors she felt guilt over this statement.
“I felt maybe he was trying to tell me something and it was my fault,” she said. “I blamed myself. I thought perhaps that was a cry for help and I didn’t understand it.”
————————
As a follow up to this story, I decided to look up the man who was convicted of abusing his 11-week old twins resulting in the death of one. There is something chilling about this website set up to raise money for his legal defense. I wonder how many people contributed.
http://kaliq.kmansor.com/
—————————————-
It occurred to me that IF the MFH had occurred with Kaine as the victim, and IF what we’ve heard about Terri venting to Desiree, friends, and people at the gym about Kaine is true (and I think she did), then there would be a lot of people wondering if she was asking for help and whether they were somewhat responsible because they ignored comments that may have made them feel uncomfortable.
Obviously, a great many people vent and never kill anyone – the concept of “venting” is to release pressure so, hopefully, nothing bad happens, and, of course, many people say things and regret it later. That does not mean there are no grains of truth (like dropping breadcrumbs) in what is said. It’s easy to believe it’s possible that someone, somewhere, knows something about what happened to Kyron that they don’t know they know.
Miss Bri says:
October 12, 2012 at 10:11 am
@MBS- This may have already been brought up because im a little behind in reading (I’m newly pregnant and just exhausted ) In the interview with Kim Holm she talks about getting a phone call that Kyron did not get off the bus that day, so it does appear that Skyline Parents did receive the call.
(snipped)
“And the teacher said, ‘I thought he left with his mom,’ because they thought they had a doctor appointment,” Kim Holm said. “And then at lunchtime – Kurtis ate lunch with him every day – he wasn’t there at lunchtime. And then I got a call at 4:30ish, saying he didn’t get off the bus, I guess. And Kurtis said, ‘Oh yeah, I knew he was already gone all day, Mom.’”
(snipped) http://www.komonews.com/news/local/98987454.html
——————————–
@Miss Bri – congratulations! I remember that exhausted feeling. I gather from the 3 smiley faces that you are very happy – that’s great!
We know the auto-dialer was not set up for Skyline, however, Kim Holm may have been called directly because Kurtis was a good friend of Kyron’s. Parents of Skyline students who had children in other schools which did have the auto-dialer would have gotten a call also.
The City of Portland has an emergency calling system, as does Milwaukie as well as some other municipalities. It can be used citywide or by area. I have not heard anyone say that was done so I doubt that it was, but it’s possible. I think it’s more likely that whoever was available at the school started calling parents in Kyron’s classroom as soon as possible. The PTA may also have had a phone tree for the school. She doesn’t make that clear in her comments.
I’ll go you one further. The reporter stated that DDS had not testified before the GJ wrt Kyron’s disappearance. So, does that mean she did testify before the GJ in the mfh? You said it, “clear as mud.”
T. Ruth says:
October 12, 2012 at 10:58 am
Could the suspect information issued by the FBI in Jessica Ridgeway’s case be applied to Kyron’s as well? Did locals think about these things; were they advised to do so?
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_21754575/fbi-look-strange-behavior-suspect
Anyone who has begun acting strange or differently since the disappearance of 10-year-old Jessica Ridgeway on Oct. 5 could be a suspect, the FBI said Thursday.
The change could be something as minor as shaving a beard, parking in a different location or becoming incensed by the constant news coverage of the case or trying to change the subject if the case comes up, the agency’s Denver spokesman, Dave Joly, told reporters Thursday.
“It could be your boss, it could be your friend, and ultimately it could be your family member,” he said. “Bring this information to law enforcement, and let us vet that.”
The person responsible — most likely a man, based on unspecified information — may suddenly miss work or scheduled appointments. He may leave town, with no explanation or with some plausible reason.
Joly said sometimes people may unknowingly be associated with the offender but could be in a position to observe behavioral changes in that person.
I keep thinking about that MFH
At first I kind of thought it was just a he said she said
Deal
But it has been over 2 years and Terri has some reason
to that the 5th
It is hard to believe anyone would try to hire
a killer in Oregon
Just plain stupid really
But she has made stupid choices
The DUI
Throwing a friends books out in the rain after they
Gave her a place to live
Writing emails about Kyron
Acting wired at the first presser
Just to name a few
So maybe…
T. Ruth says: October 12, 2012 at 11:02 am
“Did Underhill make a Freudian slip up?”
I remember something similar, T. Ruth, when at a early press release, LE kept saying Holm instead of Horman. Could these statements be instances of Subjective Thinking/Speaking? When someone is thinking one thing but meaning to say another.
RedRose says:
October 12, 2012 at 3:01 am (By the way, did DDS lose her job there? –or was she working for someone else at the time?)
*******
IIRC…. DeDe was only doing an internship there and was not an employee.
buried in article, 2 separate attempts last month in arvada to lure a young boy into a car:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/12/poor-condition-body-found-in-search-for-missing-colorado-10-year-old-slows/
thru googling on Ridgeway (may she rip & family find comfort eventually ) re SOs in area ,
I landed on websleuths where a person posted a SO with WA, WY, CO links.
His pic looks like that thankfully failed Park assaulter drawing who resembled
but was not the Skyline lawncare man. Moreover this SO is a social media user: 78 friends on
“SpiritualNetworks” among other useage.
The similarities to the Jessica Ridgeway case are minimal, IMO. Jessica’s parents were living in different states
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
4. T. Ruth says:
October 11, 2012 at 10:37 pm
@Rose says:
October 10, 2012 at 8:43 pm
There are similarities to this case in Jessica Ridgway’s case. Custody battle, missing on the way to school. Yes.
Accidently posted before I was finished: The similarities in the Jessica Ridgeway case to Kyron’s case are minimal, IMO. Jessica’s parents were separated and living in different states and already had a custody battle going before Jessica disappeared. Do we have any evidence that TH and KH were arguing about custody at the time of Kyron’s disappearance? Jessica’s mother did not take her to school and see her in the school as TH says she did. Jessica’s mother last saw her when she walked out the door of the home to go to school.
http://m.myspace.com/home.wap?bfd=webnext&isredirected=true#friends.list/profile/584717201
above referenced man
I suppose it’s easier for already divorced or never married bios to hang together, and much easier with no stepmom and rival siblings (for parental attention) in picture. I wish the BAU profiling had been published by investigators in Kyron’s case. I wonder if it fit mcso’s theory or not.
——-
I thought the profile Blink wrote about in this blog was the FBI (BAU) profile. I could be wrong.
-snip
Opportunist Sexual Predator Pedophile- Highly organized offender, serial. No kids of his own, possible divorce.
Possibly dated someone with kids in the area.
Skills or resources to go underground quickly and for sustained periods of time.
Able to function undetected in the community, but familiar enough to fit in.
No electronic footprint, but has masterful IT skills
Has had access to Skyline prior to 6/4/10 possibly through work, which I would guess is construction/electric/plumbing related.
@cd. MCSO would’ve released the BAU profile if they thought it woukd advance the investigation. Obviously CO LE thought it would advance their investigation & has always treated the public as an equal partner. Where they can’t speak, they say so and why. They released the profile before the body was found.
@Panda. I agree they are minimal. In looking at that CO-WY-WA SO though, I was reminded of the IT skills of SZ. I have often assumed that fit in was due to as yet unknown kinky websites or “business” boards Terri was on, buying into the stepmonster theme, letting in vampires (not so mundane As blackberry bushes). It could be something more simple. Last January Leo had 80 friends on Spiritual Networks and no doubt some let their woes hang out on a place like that. That reminds me there are no doubt theme related sites for some to share their woes about custody or child support. For example, that Missouri custody hearing might’ve just been about an increase in child support. Mom or Dad or Grandma might have had a media support site like Spiritual Networks. I think it’s mighty fishy she was scooped up virtually at her door & not nearer the school on a custody hearing morning. Desiree is very spiritual. Might she have expressed her custody wishes being blocked by Kaine. Might Ecker have complained about child support. Might either Tarver expressed concern about James. Might Kelly be on a spiritual network worried about her sister’s boy. Closer to home, might Terri have gone to some site even Spiritual Networks and friended and got into wanting Kyron custodially in Medford? The common factor might only be social media use of an adult, and the custody, child support angle, resulting in targeting at an apt moment. imo JR perp knew Jessica would walk alone due to prestalking the site or due to knowing Mom sleeps days. Ditto for Kyron, imo he was likely to run off unattended. Not proposing the perp is Leo, but that’s a fast highway to WY from CO. Eight hours is nothing of a drive. I think in confining theory to WA, OR, Cali (N and S on Hwy 5) is shortsighted, having done the E-W drive to & thru WY, CO from Denver myself to the OR coast.
Can anyone explain the paragraph on p 2 that says Fed authorities have jurisdiction over this case even though no state lines were crossed due to age of victim (kidnapping & sex assault) & why that would not apply to the younger Kyron? http://m.newsok.com/fbi-seeks-help-in-finding-wyoming-kidnap-suspect/article/feed/446966?custom_click=pod_headline_usnational-news
Is it as simple as WY LE asked FBI to take the lead,
and MCSO refuses to ask?
Oct. 13, 2012 5:52 AM ET
Authorities: Body is that of missing Colo. girl
http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/3d281c11a96b4ad082fe88aa0db04305/Article_2012-10-13-School%20Girl%20Slain/id-aa8a2c6168e14c1e9632e5eb3d625c2c
Oh My God, not again. I was so hoping the body wasn’t hers. My prayers go out to her family. RIP Jessica.
Jessica Ridgeway’s case is also similar to Kyron’s in the amount of time it took for anyone to realize she was missing and do something about it. Also, broad daylight abduction.
This makes me wonder if the perp knew her mother would not be answering the phone when the school called to notify her of the child’s absence. It makes me wonder if it was someone who Jessica knew or someone who knew her mother.
http://www.examiner.com/article/jessica-ridgeway-search-leads-to-body-found-near-two-attempted-abduction-cases
Above article has sketch of the man in the two previous attempted abductions in Jessica’s neighborhood.
closure to the story I mentioned earlier –
10-12-12
A Washington County man convicted of killing his 11-week-old son and abusing the boy’s twin has been sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 28 years.
Kaliq Mansor was sentenced Friday, two weeks after jurors found him guilty of murder and other charges.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Wash-Co-man-sentenced-for-babys-death-173958451.html
Well, I said “closure” but I don’t think anyone ever completely gets that no matter what the circumstances are. It’s sad to think the searches for Kyron are most likely over forever unless some very specific new information is received.
@MbS, the story of little Bryan is horribly haunting. I sat on a GJ where a little boy had been being abused by a friend of his mother’s. I can’t tell you how physically ill I got from the pictures. We were all in tears. It still makes me nauseous.
This man, Kalig, was he pleading not guilty? Was he trying to say his wife did it? How is it, the mother didn’t know both child’s ribs were broken?
Who googles “father hates infant” and doesn’t expect to get caught if he’s been abusing his child? Especially someone who knows computers. Very bizarre.
I suppose it’s easier for already divorced or never married bios to hang together, and much easier with no stepmom and rival siblings (for parental attention) in picture. I wish the BAU profiling had been published by investigators in Kyron’s case. I wonder if it fit mcso’s theory or not.
——-
I thought the profile Blink wrote about in this blog was the FBI (BAU) profile. I could be wrong.
-snip
Opportunist Sexual Predator Pedophile- Highly organized offender, serial. No kids of his own, possible divorce.
Possibly dated someone with kids in the area.
Skills or resources to go underground quickly and for sustained periods of time.
Able to function undetected in the community, but familiar enough to fit in.
No electronic footprint, but has masterful IT skills
Has had access to Skyline prior to 6/4/10 possibly through work, which I would guess is construction/electric/plumbing related.
————-
I think that the local Multnomah County Sheriffs profile would be something like the following
Female
Previous marriages
Unemployed
New baby
Around 40 years old
Attracted to landscapers
Red hair
Name starts with a T
etc etc……..
Re: autodialer. All PPS parents got that call. They automate it mostly to tell us of closures, bond meetings, etc. This was the only time we got one like the 6/4/10 one.
Re: Why not Forest Park elementary? Much bigger school. Huge parental involvement. No middle school there, so more parents heavily involved. Less accessible from downtown, etc. Perhaps has tighter controls on who goes out/in. All just guesses from the view of a PPS mom with children in SW schools near Skyline.
About Skyline: Unique in that Kyron was last seen in front of his classroom. His classroom was near an open door, unmonitored – that let down to the futball field. If he subsequently went near the north end {i.e. in the gym or cafeteria depending on if he were in the basement (upper grades) or the main floor (lower grades)} of the school a door opens to that inner parking lot/play area, secluded from the rest of the school. If there was an “electric cool one” in that area who knows …. but it would have been easy to not have anyone notice.
Last word from MCSO was “last seen in front of his classroom doorway”…. no time mentioned.
Steamed. wtf is all this precise timing of recess with ages on this public website?
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools/skyline/
where is the pta?
in privates parent info like this is on the parent password protected portion of the site.
in my publics, it’s on a pta yahoo group subject to sign up & name check for enrollment.
This Principal’s chatty public letters are just like friendly warm Keefer & the open doors of the Sci Fair.
@ Falstaff
This is a teaching site and a lot of these posters spend a lot of time on research. I pop in every once in a while and post. I feel it is necessary that I preface my questions and comments with “all due respect” announcements because I mean it. These people put a lot of time and energy into this site and these stories. If I have something to say, I want to respectfully chime in. I don’t want to act or feel like a troll.
cd, NelMel, Erose and foobros: thank you for your thoughtful posts. I appreciate the insight.
@cd says:
October 13, 2012 at 5:16 pm
LMAO
with respect Falstaff, it would be extremely
helpful to your collaboraters here if you could
go back to your source and ask if Rudy had a poly.
it would also be helpful to know
if Elsy and her two children are any relation.
Thanking you in advance.
margie says:
October 13, 2012 at 6:37 pm
Hi margie, nice to see a local here. Are you saying all the upper grades’ projects were in the basement? Just wondering, because I would imagine if there was a cool electric one, it would have been one of the upper grades’ projects?
margie says: October 13, 2012 at 6:37 pm
—-
Hello Margie, It is great having a local join in; you description of the doors at Skyline and where the lead, was really interesting. When you asked: Why not Forest Park elementary?, I can only think (if TMH was not at all involved)the confusion of the science fair gave him opportunity.
cd says: October 13, 2012 at 5:16 pm
—
Thanks for the chuckle!
@ MBS
T. Ruth says: October 13, 2012 at 2:36 pm
Snipped: “How is it, the mother didn’t know both child’s ribs were broken?”
——
The video about Bryan made me cry and the mother seemed believable. However, I thought the same about the ribs. I broke two ribs once, it left a bruise, and I literally couldn’t move in certain directions without pain. I assume the child had pain. Mom didn’t notice her child was in pain? No doctor visits? Sorry off Topic.
@ Rose
I know you work hard here as do others, especially BOC. I know many who loved this site early on, it seemed very fair and well taken care off. I have had a lot of experience with abused children, and for that matter, abused adults. Some bad turns were taken here that should be righted….just like in a real case. BOC likes to be seen as a “teaching blog” great idea. So run it like a teaching blog and BOC will soar, and a lot of people will come back.
1. Kyron’s case is very real, not sure what that comment meant Falstaff- and to be perfectly honest, if you are going to critique my site, I welcome it, but then be specific, not vague.
2. As an example, some “bad turns here that should be righted.. and people will come back..” sounds to me more like those that are buying the TH guilt scenario without a shred of verifiable evidence do not like to post with posters who use critical thinking tools and analysis to discuss the case- and frankly, cannot determine based on the known evidence who is to blame outside of the TH theory.
3. I am not a fan of TH, that said, right now, I am not a fan of the parenting style or practice of TH, KH or DY as it relates ultimately to what happened to Ky and afterward. Not judging, Lord knows I am far from a perfect parent, and I support them regardless in all efforts to find Kyron.
Can I ask how your background with abused children helps to form your opinion of guilt wrt to TH?
I am not aware of a single allegation that TH abused any of her children ( save the dui with James present, I believe putting him in that position is a definite form of abuse).
B
Why did Kaine Horman’s email to Intel employees on Sunday June 6, 2010 say this:
He was **dropped off at school about 8:45** and went missing sometime between then and 9 or 9:30am.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/06/23/new-clues-in-kyron-horman-search-fact-or-fiction-you-decide/
Why did Desiree Young, in an interview (Kaine there too) with KGW on June 25, 2010 say this:
“Desiree: I know for sure that Terri **dropped him off**. That’s what we know for sure.”
(transcript courtesy BeanE, @ WS http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107714&page=2)
Gina Zimmerman says this, in a story published June 5, 2010, 2:06 p.m.
Parent Gina Zimmerman was at the school for the science fair, which she described as major academic and social event for the school where the day’s events included an afternoon talent show.
She said Kyron is not the type of child to wander off. “He knows ‘stranger danger,” she said. “He’s a really good kid.”
Parents are shocked at the disappearance, she said, and have been calling to share concerns at “our little school where everyone knows everybody.”
She last saw Kyron in the morning, when he posed in a classroom in front of his “red-eyed tree frog” science project. He was posing for a picture taken by his mother, whom he loves, Zimmerman said.
http://www.king5.com/news/local/NW-Portland-second-grader-still-missing-Saturday-95689114.html
Matt Shelby says this June 4, 2010:
Portland Public Schools spokesman Matt Shelby said two teachers saw Kyron with his mother and thought the two left school together. He said it was not uncommon for parents to pick up kids this way, so no suspicions were raised.
http://www.king5.com/news/local/NW-Portland-second-grader-still-missing-Saturday-95689114.html
Terri often volunteers at the school, working closely with Kyron’s teacher, Kristina Porter. Shelby said that Porter saw Kyron in her classroom with his stepmom before 8:45 a.m. and another instructor reported seeing him in another classroom at some point.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html
Gina Zimmerman also says this, in the November 2012 Dateline show:
KS: Gina Zimmerman also has a distinct recollection of seeing both Kyron and his step-mom Terri at the science fair, and this is important: She places Terri and Kyron at the school around 8:30 a.m., which starts the timeline of Terri’s day. Gina even remembers chatting with Terri about some school t-shirts.
GZ: I let her know that they weren’t ready yet, that they would be ready the next week. And she said “Oh, that’s okay. I just wanted…Kyron’s going down to his Medford family and we had ordered some for Desiree, and….”
KS: She was planning ahead, she was looking forward……?
GZ: Right. She was planning on sending those t-shirts down with…..with Kyron.
KS: Gina’s account dispels the rumors that Terri and her step-son never even made it to school that day, and that Terri somehow faked the now famous photo of Kyron with his science project.
GZ: I remember seeing Kyron in front of his project, and um, Terri took a picture of him, and took one with him in front of it, and then one um, just the project alone.
KS: You saw her take that picture?
GZ: I saw her take the picture. Absolutely.
KS: How happy was Kyron that morning?
GZ: Really, really happy. Real excited and very proud of his project.
KS: In that moment, Gina couldn’t know that that photo of Kyron would soon be posted all over Portland, and across the US, as part of a nationwide effort to find him, and bring him home. She saw nothing amiss that morning as Kyron and Terri Horman wrapped up their tour of the science fair. Then it was time for Terri to say goodbye to Kyron and leave the school.
“Terri Horman said around 8:45 in the morning the last time she saw her step-son Kyron Horman, he was walking down this hallway in his school on his way to his second grade classroom.”
It’s unclear exactly who, if anyone, saw Kyron after that point, or where. But Ms Porter started class at 10 a.m., time for the kids to return to their home room and take their seats. It’s at this point that C*** L*** remembers noticing that something wasn’t right.
CL: I went to sit in my seat, and looked back. He wasn’t there. And then a couple more minutes, I looked back, and then after lunch….and I kept on looking back to see if he came back, but he never came back.
(Transcript courtesy of a good friend with TIVO.)
Terri Horman says this in email sent to ??? sometime in the afternoon of June 5, 2010:
“I didn’t just drop him off, I spent time with him, took pictures and he was in safe hands I thought as I watched him walk down the hall.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html
***********
I think it’s important to note the dates of when people said things, because as new information (if it ever does) emerge can change a person’s opinion. We have at least two people, Zimmerman & Kyron’s own teacher saying very early on, June 4/5, 2010 that Terri was seen inside that school with Kyron. So can someone tell me, why on earth on June 6, Kaine Horman puts in writing that Terri dropped Kyron off at school and then even weeks later, Kaine & Desiree Young are saying “I know for sure that Terri dropped him off. That’s what we know for sure.” This makes zero sense.
There is something significant about this, I just can’t put my finger on it. Looking up the links for all this (as I know Blink appreciates), something else jumped out at me. Are these the only people we’ve ever been told who saw Terri Horman that morning?:
Gina Zimmerman
Kristina Porter (via Shelby’s statement Porter saw Terri in her classroom)
Kristina Porter & ???? Teacher (via Matt Shelby’s statement, above)
T P (whom I believe said in his interview he saw Terri leave sans Kyron)
Is that it? If so, that’s downright weird isn’t it? We have other people that said they saw Kyron, but Terri? Two years later and not one other person has come forward to say they also saw Terri that morning? Am I missing anyone, I must be. Crowded & chaotic, so who else saw Terri?
Secondly, Matt Shelby’s comment about the two teachers being the last *staff* to see Kyron is followed by a comment about not thinking it weird because children are often picked up that way. Does this mean that two teachers are claiming they saw Kyron *leave* with Terri Horman? Are the two teachers the ones who are saying they saw Kyron outside by a white pickup? Who in the heck is the other teacher, and why wasn’t it ever reported? I wonder if Houze knows. (I guess he will eventually.)
There is something so fishy about the first few days of this abduction and Skyline’s reluctance to even say at what time Kyron was marked absent. Another Freudian slip up was when Ben Keefer was actually the first to slip and say that this was now a criminal case, press conference abruptly shut down by Captain Gates. Why would Ben Keefer know this was being labeled a criminal case before anyone else? Hmmmmm?
Okay, while on the subject how about a list of who we know says they saw Kyron and when and where? The above comment from Dateline by his classmate CL makes it sound like he certainly saw Kyron earlier on (though we don’t know when for sure), it actually sounds like he saw Kyron sitting at his desk at some point that morning, because he says he “never came back” to his desk.
Ooops, there was apparently a third instructor who saw Terri Horman “in another classroom” that morning.
Oregon Public Broadcasting did a story about Kyron. Came across it while researching. I thought this comment quoted below was worth remembering – June 14, 2010
As both a PPS substitute teacher and a parent of a PPS student, I have some observations regarding school safety.
Some (but not all!) teachers count heads during attendance and throughout the day. However there are times when students fall through the cracks. One of these times is during lunch and recess transitions. It is often not the child’s teacher who takes the class from the lunchroom to the playground. Teachers often leave their classes with lunchroom monitors so they can return to their rooms to eat and prepare for the afternoon. Do monitors have a headcount for each class? The answer to that question is usually NO! Monitors or principals often take groups out to recess. Sometimes students have left the cafeteria to use the bathroom or for some other reason. These students are left behind and unaccounted for for an indefinite period of time. I don’t want to think about what might happen if there was a fire in the building. Students are also locked out of the school because the teacher didn’t notice that they were not with the rest of the class.
Many students participate in classes outside of their homeroom (P.E., Library, Special Ed, ESL etc.) These teachers often do not take roll or have an attendance sheet. There is definitely the possibility of students being unaccounted for during these times. I have also noticed that Special Ed teachers often do not check on students who don’t arrive for pull out classes.
Suggestions for PPS:
Teachers, it is your responsibility to carry around a head count of students and check periodically to be certain that you are not missing anyone.
Students should only be allowed to leave the classroom with a buddy.
Lunchroom monitors as well as other staff who care for students in place of their regular teachers (special ed, ESL,P.E., music, etc.) should always have a copy of that day’s attendance list and should take roll when the students are delivered to them. In the morning, the school secretary could make copies of class lists when they are delivered to the school office after attendance is taken and all staff would be responsible for picking up this attendance sheet for the class that they would be working with on that day.
When teachers take students back to classroom, they should line them up and count them before they go back into the building and again once they return to the classroom.
northeastRex — Mon June 14th 6:42p.m.
http://www.opb.org/thinkoutloud/shows/kyron-horman/
@January. I posed the question Why not the larger Forest Park which Margie answered with thoughtfulness. (TY). Not only Forest Park but every Portland el ed has Science Fairs. Someone had mentioned Forest Park’s geogr is very wild too. Margie pointed out as an el ed only, not middle, FPark has a huge parent involvement. It is also more accessible to downtown. Also at Skyline the 2 locations kids or Kyron were apt to be were right by open doors and accessible to parking.