Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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Oops. in summarizing Margie, I meant the opposite,
Skyline is more accessible to downtown.
this article’s paragraph about “confuse the victim”
(male children in this case) made me wonder if
some of Kyron’s strange “confused” behavior
observed by Terri, if true, might relate to the school.
http://www.wjhg.com/home/headlines/More_Sexual_Abuse_Victims_of_Bozeman_Teacher_Identified_140665873.html
I couldn’t find a C***L*** on the list of 490 people that was at Scared Monkeys. But since Kyron isn’t on the list either, this is probably everyone there EXCEPT the students.
It almost sounds like the school and LE know very well who did this but need “more” proof? They may not be able to learn Kyron’s whereabouts unless they sit on somebody and squash them until a truth comes out. Of course, then they couldn’t probably prosecute, but the world has a way of applying Justice. I think they need to find Kyron first and let everything else stack up later.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=9183.msg1279225
@T. Ruth says: October 14, 2012 at 2:44 pm
T. Ruth says:
October 14, 2012 at 2:44 pm
Funny, T.Ruth – we must have been looking at the same old articles at the same time this weekend. “Great minds” and all that . . .
I’ve been going over and over the same questions you brought up – why did so few people say they saw Terri? or Terri and Kyron together?
And I totally agree with you about looking at the dates of the quotes/interviews. And the “dropped off” comments. At one point, Desiree said she thought Terri planned to stay the whole time, and Kaine said later that he didn’t know why she didn’t stay and bring home the exhibit as the science fair ended since they knew already that the exhibits had to be there until 10. (These comments were in video interviews.)
Did LE insist that any other witnesses keep silent? Could they even successfully do that – it seems to be human nature to talk and sooner or later it gets to a friend of a friend, etc., and we hear about it. (You can bet if my kid went to this school, I’d be comparing notes with other parents I knew well.)
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/search_for_missing_portland_bo.html Saturday, June 05, 2010, 9:57 PM Updated: Friday, June 18, 2010, 4:59 PM
Zimmerman, the PTA president, briefly visited the school Saturday morning after spending part of Friday talking with Kyron’s parents.
“We’re very close,” she said. “Everybody’s just worried and in shock that this could happen in our little school where everybody knows everybody.”
Her daughter, Madi, said she was concerned about her classmate who played with her on the swings.
——————————–
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Media/kyron-horman-missing-disappeared-elementary-school/story?id=10836677 June 5, 2010
Zimmerman told the newspaper that most of the parents and students of the K-8 school, which has about 300 students, arrived at the school shortly after 8 a.m. Friday for the end-of-year science fair.
She said Terri Korman took a photograph of Kyron in front of his project, which her daughter Madi said was on the red-eye tree frog.
snipped from T.Ruth’s post: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html
Gina Zimmerman also says this, in the November 2012 Dateline show:
KS: Gina Zimmerman also has a distinct recollection of seeing both Kyron and his step-mom Terri at the science fair, and this is important: She places Terri and Kyron at the school around 8:30 a.m., which starts the timeline of Terri’s day. Gina even remembers chatting with Terri about some school t-shirts.
GZ: I let her know that they weren’t ready yet, that they would be ready the next week. And she said “Oh, that’s okay. I just wanted…Kyron’s going down to his Medford family and we had ordered some for Desiree, and….”
——————————————–
IMO, the only way what LE and Desiree and Kaine think/say makes sense concerning Terri’s timeline at the school is if you take Gina Zimmerman’s testimony and chop it down to what she first said on June 5th – simply that Terri took a photograph of Kyron in front of his exhibit. She also says she spent part of Friday at the Horman’s and “we’re very close”. After that she says she actually saw Terri take the picture and adds the conversation about school T-shirts – she’s still talking to the press in November.
Why would GZ add to what she really saw (IF she did)? After spending time at the Horman’s, “We’re very close,” she said. “Everybody’s just worried and in shock that this could happen in our little school where everybody knows everybody.” As PTA president, perhaps she wanted to protect the school’s reputation or a staff member? Or maybe she had a more personal reason. It’s just a “what if”? I think GZ is the only person to say she was “very close” to the Horman’s.
Another “what if” – JUST for the sake of argument – Mrs. Porter saw Terri come in with Kyron and leave the backpack and jacket. I thought the exhibits were set up in the classrooms of the younger students. If that’s so, then GZ would have had to see Terri take the picture IN his classroom. Since Terri said they got there a little after 8 AM, IF that is true and IF the exhibit was set up on Thursday afternoon as we’ve heard, then the picture(s) could have been taken by 8:10 or 8:15 at least. GZ hasn’t said where she had her T-shirt conversation – it could have been at that same time in Kyron’s classroom.
Continuing with “what if” – If Terri and Kyron went to another classroom to look at exhibits where another teacher saw them, then downstairs during which time 2 other staff members could have seen them (or either of them alone) at any point, and then Terri left, it could easily have been as early as 8:30. I can (sort of) accept that a child could look out a window during a busy and noisy science fair and see Terri leave without Kyron, but not that the child would look at the time, make a mental note, and remember it for no particular reason. Either that didn’t happen or there was something else going on with/around Terri that attracted his attention but that he did not tell when interviewed. (We first heard that Terri left at 9, then it was changed to 8:45.)
So what if the real timeline was:
8:05 Mrs. Porter’s classroom – put away backpack and jacket, take pictures, talk to GZ.
8:15 Look at another classroom’s exhibits – possibly another staff witness
8:25 or 8:30 – Kyron walks around alone, Terri leaves.
Terri should have supervised him until 9 when kids were to meet in their classes to form groups. She didn’t, by her own statement that she left at 8:45. She would certainly not want to say she was gone by 8:30 making it half an hour he was unsupervised. Saying that she thought he was going into his classroom makes it “OK”, but what if she didn’t see him walk to the classroom at all?
No one has ever said (that I remember) that Kyron was assigned to their group at 9 AM and walked around with them even part of the time – not a parent and not any of at least 3 children who would have been in the same group. All we have is the conversation overheard by a student re Kyron possibly in the bathroom. This does not match with Mrs. Porter thinking he left with Terri. Therefore, to me, they sort of cancel each other out unless we can prove one or the other is true.
Kaine said in the Intel memo “between 9 and 9:30”. Terri said in an email “between 9 and 10”. Those timelines don’t make sense unless (a) Kyron started out in a group at 9 and wandered off unnoticed, or (b) he walked around for at least half an hour. maybe as long as an hour or more, alone with nobody directing him to class and no friends connecting with him. It makes more sense that he was gone before 9 unless Skyline staff was incredibly unaware and negligent about monitoring students. You don’t have to know a kid to ask where they are supposed to be and get them there.
I went through this whole line of reasoning in 2010 and probably 2011 again, but I’ve still not seen anything to rule it out. The question is what time did a witness or witnesses see Kyron talking to a man (SZ) – and is that time definite? In other words, at a busy science fair with a break in the school routine, did anyone stop to check the time or have a reference point such as a bell to mark the time? It just seems to me that the less time SZ spent at the school, the fewer the chances he would be remembered, and the earlier in the day, the less likely anyone would be noticing Kyron walking around by himself.
“Dropped off” usually makes me think someone drives up, opens the car door, and one or more riders jump out and go wherever they want to go. But it can also mean you go in for a short time. My daughter said she dropped off her son at preschool, but I know she gets out with her baby, goes in the office, signs the 3 year old in, and walks him to his room. We still say “dropped off” because she doesn’t stay. Maybe this is what Desiree and Kaine are thinking – that she walked to his room, took a picture or 2 and left rather than spending until 9 when he was supposed to go to class, or until 10 when she could have taken the exhibit home.
In everything we’ve seen from GZ, did she ever mention a “fussy baby”?
I have reviewed the PPS calling on June 4th one more time – hopefully the last since I think I am up to about 10 times by now. This is the way I think it was –
1. Skyline did not notify anyone during the day that Kyron (or any other student) was not in class. If they had put the auto-dialer in place, that would have happened automatically, most likely by noon or earlier (it’s a small school).
2. It’s possible to remove kids’ names from an auto-dialer calling list for that day if they have an excused absence in advance – note or email before the date of the absence. Kyron did not have an excused absence – we know that because since Terri said later that he didn’t have an appointment that day, there would be no note or email from her that he did. Without an excuse in advance (even if he did have an appointment), a call would have automatically gone from the auto-dialer to whoever is on record as the contact person (you can have more than one contact if you choose – I often set up the contacts as a foster parent and a DHS worker, for example, or both parents, or a mom and grandmother, etc.).
What this means, IMO: Whoever took Kyron probably knew Skyline did not use an auto-dialer. This fact would be helpful, but still was not a 100% guarantee that no one would call – that would require the teacher either (a) ignoring that she had seen him that day and not caring where he was, or (b) thinking he was supposed to be gone. Maybe SZ enjoyed the risk and did not care if Kyron was quickly discovered to be missing, but if it was a plan, then perhaps it’s a fact that mattered.
3. Skyline parents were called on June 4th. It was also said that all other parents in the district also received the call unintentionally. Even though the auto-dialer was not set up so that Skyline could use it for absence calls, the district apparently still had the ability to call all parents using an automated phone system. This was done at the district level as stated by Shelby – it seems unlikely anyway that an individual school would be able to call the entire district intentionally or not.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/95669809.html (snipped)
Portland Public Schools spokesman Matt Shelby said Horman was at school Friday and Portland Public Schools sent out an automated phone call to all Skyline parents alerting them to the missing boy.
Shelby said Horman’s parents weren’t notified when he was marked absent because Skyline doesn’t use an auto-dialer which calls parents to report the student is absent. Shelby said the school doesn’t use such a system because it doesn’t have problems with attendance.
January,
Nice to be here. I’ve looked at the maps of the school, and i’ve been there. The gym and the cafeteria are down by the main office. What struck me right away when I drove up there awhile back was the “inner” parking lot. TMH had parked in the regular parking lot, the strip to the east. She’d gotten there early so prolly had the pick of them. Works with her saying good-bye and seeing him walk “down” the hall. She’d turn with her fussy baby and not have far to go to the truck.
Now, if the science fair special older kid’s exhibits were held in the gym across from the main office, then Kyron could have gone there, with his chaperoned group or without. The door at the end of the gym, leading to the inner parking lot/play area was not locked. Whoever absconded with Kyron prolly took him out that way. The door near his classroom was too visible…i.e. Dave Sw. was mowing the lawn, many kids/teachers near there from the rooms. I’ll try to find a pix of the layout. But it just shocked me when I was up there to see how easy it could have been. Especially if the perp chose a time when there was a lull between groups coming in.
I still haven’t ruled out David D. or the perp, Adams. That freak Adams was here and free in June 2010. And we know how closely he was monitored. :<). Durham was a local fire-fighter volunteer, and as so might have had access to the school at some point. Also lived near Kaine/Teri. Could a plot with either of the parents have gone wrong? Or acting alone for ransom? Has anyone ever heard if mcso really ruled-out either? And when?
As for that bungling MCSO. Don't get me started. I just can't wrap my head around this:
"During the investigation of the other potential persons of interest, the team realized that some evidence — namely phone records and computer log-on information from Skyline School the day Kyron went missing — were not kept by the school district as the sheriff's office didn't request the preservation of those records.
Staton and Gates said they did obtain other information from the school via a search warrant submitted to Superintendent Carole Smith, but could not comment on the school phone records or computer data being preserved.
There are still "millions of data points" that need to be examined. Those points come from all the cell phone calls picked up by 11 towers within a certain radius of Skyline School — what investigators call "ground zero" — during the six-hour span on June 4, 2010, when Kyron's disappearance went unreported.
Last year, Staton said in an interview with The Oregonian that he was anguished at losing those vital six hours from the time the 7-year-old boy was last seen during his school science fair and when he was reported missing after he didn't return home by school bus that afternoon."
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/06/kyron_horman_task_force_to_dis.html?mobRedir=false
Jeez…Staton is worried about those lost "6 hours" and not worried about losing all the data from the school that morning that could have filled in the pieces?
Just shows you how "sure" they were that they had the perp. What if they were wrong?
Oh. And vw/margie is the same. Got mixed up the other day.
And yes, younger kids on the main floor. Older grades in the basement.
@Rose. Were you looking at he stats on the school, via the PPS website? I noticed that again the enrollment went down, for the second year in a row. That school would be up for closure at 276 if not for …. well, what kind of message would it send if the school was closed?
OT A disturbing story on human trafficing in Portland.
http://m.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20121014/NEWS/210140317&template=wapart
@TRuth. re the quote “two teachers saw Kyron with his mother.”
what did PPS expect when it was a Sci Fair open house expo when kids were supposed to tour with their parent ?
Shelby’s conclusion that those 2 teachers thought Kyron left with his mother because they saw them together does not follow. Otherwise, the school would have been emptied of every child going to the open house exhibits with a parent.
OT kudos to fbi for arresting the suspect in Bozeman. imo assisted by Cody traffic cameras that picked up the Toyota in the vicinity which the girl could id. notable that child porn was in vehicle. I skimmed his ex’s blog and after Father’s Day ’08, she is silent on him (not like her) until a review of her bad year (tge divorce) in ’10 when she points out he evaded alimony & child support entirely but proceeded to buy himself beaucoup cameras & their associated gear,
droid, computer & printer while the kids could barely be kept in food by her.
Skinflint on his ex & kids (nary a dime) , but seems to make a fair amount for himself.
A lover of tenting in high back country. (My own opinion is he’s likely traveled to OR, WA coasts to photograph.)
My point is, is there anyone in Kyron’s case, other than Dad’s brother whom I admire & feel sorry for, who tents and travels in back country, often alone, and has a digital camera hobby & lots of computer stuff? SZ maybe could’ve escalated from porn like this alleged perp, and/or creating it from his vics, thus be a camera man
Here is a map of Skyline. A bond is up for approval again to upgrade many PPS schools. Scroll down thru the form to designate Skyline as an historic building, to pages 5+. The last page is a blueprint of the classrooms on the main floor. The last room at the end of the hall, down from the office was kyron’s room, I believe. The gym and main office are on the East end of the building. The gym is north and the main office and main door face south.
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/files/schoolmodernization/Skyline_ILS.pdf
Rose says:
October 15, 2012 at 9:18 am
Snipped:
My point is, is there anyone in Kyron’s case, other than Dad’s brother whom I admire & feel sorry for, who tents and travels in back country, often alone, and has a digital camera hobby & lots of computer stuff? SZ maybe could’ve escalated from porn like this alleged perp, and/or creating it from his vics, thus be a camera man
_________________________________________
Did you ever visit the school web site shortly after 06/04 and look at the pictures? I did and I was left with the impression that all young boys wore glasses. Whoever took the pictures for the school website definately liked young boys w/glasses. MOO
Respectfully- I have looked at thousands of pics taken at the school, school events, off site school events, pics of students on personal facebooks, birthday parties, etc.
That statement is simply not accurate.
B
T.Ruth,
In addition to the witnesses, I don’t see how anyone could state that TH was not at the school – IOW- just dropped Kyron off – with all the interest in where the truck was parked:
http://www.kgw.com/home/Sheriff-to–100446244.html
Kyron investigators focus on movements of white pickup
http://www.kgw.com/video/featured-videos/Map-Horman-truck-locations-kyron-missing-100459779.html
Interactive map: Truck locations
@ sunshine_4me says:
October 15, 2012 at 8:59 am
OT A disturbing story on human trafficing in Portland.
http://m.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20121014/NEWS/210140317&template=wapart
—————————————————————-
I’m afraid this could have been Kyron’s demise. It troubles me to even consider it. And, who/why were the wheels set in motion for his disappearance? So many questions and so few answers.
@MbS re #2: “Terri should have supervised him until 9 …”.
What time was the first bell? the second bell?
Imo her “legal” obligation was over with the first bell. and, goodness,
he could’ve been a “walker” on a non-Open House day like Jessica.
But I have been & know parents (and school buses) to deliver a bit early
in the morning, and late to pick up,
and we are not bad, just ADD or over-workloaded, with long
suffering kids.
TH obligation to “supervise” Ky ended when she entered the building during school hours and he was officially in attendance, period. From then on, the duty of care belongs squarely with the school.
You know the one, not named in the civil suit.
B
Rose says:
October 15, 2012 at 9:04 am
@TRuth. re the quote “two teachers saw Kyron with his mother.”
what did PPS expect when it was a Sci Fair open house expo when kids were supposed to tour with their parent ?
Shelby’s conclusion that those 2 teachers thought Kyron left with his mother because they saw them together does not follow. Otherwise, the school would have been emptied of every child going to the open house exhibits with a parent.
**********
Exactly, why would two teachers who saw Kyron think he left with his mother, UNLESS they were two teachers who saw Kyron outside by a white truck and thought he’d left with his mother in the truck.
IMO, only thing that makes Shelby’s conclusion makes sense, is that at least one of those teachers must be our “credible witness” Desiree refers to, the other teacher may be Porter, who allegedly thought Kyron had a Dr. Appt (or Kitty, whatever). So that would make two teachers who thought Kyron left with his mother. IDK, trying to make sense of Shelby’s comment.
Yes, and maybe Kyron’s abduction was planned the minute someone at the school got wind of that doctor’s appointment. WRT that, could some of that info have been lost in the data dump?
Rose says:
October 14, 2012 at 9:27 pm
this article’s paragraph about “confuse the victim”
(male children in this case) made me wonder if
some of Kyron’s strange “confused” behavior
observed by Terri, if true, might relate to the school.
http://www.wjhg.com/home/headlines/More_Sexual_Abuse_Victims_of_Bozeman_Teacher
@Redrose, the Task Force attendance list did not include any Skyline students, it would be much larger if it had.
**********
@MbS, Zimmerman told Kate Snow she talked with Terri around 8:30:
KS: Gina Zimmerman also has a distinct recollection of seeing both Kyron and his step-mom Terri at the science fair, and this is important: She places Terri and Kyron at the school around 8:30 a.m., which starts the timeline of Terri’s day. Gina even remembers chatting with Terri about some school t-shirts.
GZ: I let her know that they weren’t ready yet, that they would be ready the next week. And she said “Oh, that’s okay. I just wanted…Kyron’s going down to his Medford family and we had ordered some for Desiree, and….”
****
Now, I don’t know if what Snow says is accurate, but she says “and
THIS is important……which starts the timeline of Terri’s day”. I take this as KS telling us that this is actually the 1st witness account of someone seeing Terri at the school. IIRC Kaine says he left the house around 7:45. (About 1 hour earlier than usual, according to his saying he usually walked Kyron to the bus every day, pick up around 8:35, IIRC) According to Kaine, Kyron was still outside feeding Bootsie, the cat. So, Terri was still at home inside doing ???. Don’t know if Kyron & the baby had breakfast yet or not, but at the very least figuring, he still had to go back in and get his backpack, etc. and figuring Terri still had to load the baby into the car seat, and baby’s essentials etc. I’m thinking the earliest Terri hit that school was 8:10-8:15.
Terri never said she left that school @ 8:45, did she? I thought she said she last saw Kyron at 8:45, walking toward his classroom. Terri says she left the school around 9:00. This makes sense to me, she stood for a minute and watched Kyron head back to his class and then she had to walk back out to the truck and put the baby back in the car seat etc. She may even have stopped to converse with someone else or step into another classroom to check out the projects. (Other teacher that sees Terri in another classroom?) Seems to me, being a teacher, or a wannabe, whatever, she’d have an interest in what the kids were doing. That’s apparent on her FB comments about the kids’ bridge construction projects.
Anyway, if Kate Snow is right, and 8:30 is the first time anyone remembers seeing Terri at the school, my question is, is that the same time Porter saw Terri in her classroom, sometime between 8:15 & 8:30? Is this where and when Terri tells Porter they’re going to look at other exhibits? (fits my timeline) When and where did this other mystery teacher see Terri, the one who thought Kyron left with his mother and why in the heck can’t we know who that is?
JMO, but I see Terri’s timeline at the school (from what we know anyway) as
8:10-8:15 arrive at school
8:20-8:30 hang out in Kyron’s class, take pictures
8:30-8:45 look at a few other exhibits
8:45 watch Kyron head to classroom
8:45-9:00 return to truck and leave
Also, makes me wonder if Terri Horman ever even went down to the gym or the basement or wherever to see the older kids’ projects. I think it’s possible she & Kyron only viewed the projects within the younger kids classrooms. (not enough time) TK says he saw Kyron sans Terri looking at projects with other kids (gym? basement?). Sounds to me like Terri thought Kyron was going back to class, but Kyron (according to TP) went off on his own to look at the older kids projects (cool electric one). Remains to be answered, who told Kyron there was a cool electric one? For all we know, it could have been TP himself who might have asked Kyron, did you see the cool electric one downstairs?
The one thing that makes no sense is TP’s account of Porter/bathroom/drink of water/ statement. To this day, however, I do not discount that kid’s account. I just don’t see a child making that up. Why? So did Kyron go see the cool electric one and join his group when they arrived at the same location (gym/basement?). If so, then why would the hallway be the last time TP saw Kyron? Wouldn’t TP be in a group along with other kids and see Kyron there? The only thing I can figure is that substitute/chaperone had a list and Kyron’s name was on it. Perhaps the conversation between the substitute/chaperone and Porter took place BEFORE the kids left on their tour. The volunteer knows she’s supposed to have 6 kids and there are only 5. Porter tells her it’s okay, go ahead and go, Kyron’s probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water, he’ll catch up. When he doesn’t return, Porter remembers the paperwork Terri gave her the day before and simply marks him absent, without referring to the paperwork to double check the day. ???? IDK, that’s the only thing that makes sense to me regarding TP’s statements. IF this were the scenario, and since we don’t know what time TK saw Kyron alone, but we can assume it was after 8:45 and no one from Kyron’s class saw him while they were out touring (not the teacher, sub or any of his classmates) then we can assume Kyron went missing between around 8:47 and a little after 9:00 when the kids took off on their tours.
If we knew what time TK saw Kyron, it would narrow things down, or open things up a little more. LE knows that, we don’t. I truly think TK was asked not to reveal what time he saw Kyron because it will implicate the school’s liability. IOW, Kyron did not go missing on Terri’s watch, Kyron went missing on the school’s watch. JMO
I agree it’s odd as hell that no one mentions seeing the baby inside that school. How do you miss a little cherub like baby K and not mention her? Kaine Horman has confirmed to us that Kiara was with Terri that morning. However, I don’t recall him actually saying Kiara was inside the school with her. This has always made me wonder if Terri left Kiara in the truck, either because she was sleeping….(Isn’t that illegal? fail LDT?)….or, because someone else was with Terri Horman that morning and they and baby K stayed in the truck. Carol Moulton? IDK, but this has always bothered me, no one inside mentioning they saw the baby with Terri is very weird.
Who saw Terri Horman at the Science Fair? Good question. Lots of things don’t jive.
Ms. Porter sees and talks with Terri in the classroom while they are dropping off Kyron’s backpack. The school was packed with people and was chaotic. PTA president also saw them in the classroom at 8:15 (link below)
(Other parents/children must have also been in the classroom viewing exhibits.. who? They too must have seen Terri and Kyron. Was a perp in there too, mixing in, watching and then following Terri and Kyron around?)
Terri and Kyron leave the classroom to go see other exhibits, WHERE ANOTHER TEACHER SAW THEM. Who else?
(Terri couldn’t believe that Porter “messed up” her saying she was taking Kryon to see other exhibits; how could she think Terri said she was taking Kyron to the doctor?)
Terri left Kyron in the hallway close to his classroom, at let’s say 8:45, after he said he wanted to go back to his classroom.
(Maybe Terri was intending to stay the entire time, but because the baby was sick, and Kyron seemed to want to go back to the classsroom she decided to leave and get her baby settled.)
Tanner says that he saw Terri leave the school without Kyron.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tAZ1FmHtcI
(Did Tanner see Terri drive away or was he standing in the hallway at the time Terri left Kyron near the classroom. Maybe he just saw her walking away.)
Tanner passes Kyron in the hall, where Kyron tells him he is going to go see the cool electric one, and then never returned to the classroom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHdLd2SvUSU&feature=related
(Was Tanner alone at this time? Or were they in their small groups touring when they passed each other? Who told Kyron about the cool electric one?)
Tanner also says at this time he, Tanner, went downstairs, and that was the last time he saw Kyron.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tAZ1FmHtcI
(The last time that morning? It sounds like he saw him at other times that morning. See link below where he says Kyron was there for at least an hour that morning.)
Someone else saw Kyron at 9:00am but LE won’t say by whom or where.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_search_attracts_1.html
At some point when the kids were returning from or organizing to go on their tours, Tanner realizes Kyron isn’t there. Tanner mentions that a substitute was in the classroom with Porter at the time.
(Was this a parent volunteer monitoring the classroom while Ms. Porter came and went? Or was she the one taking Kyron’s group on the tour?)
At 9:45 when the science fair (parent time or small-group tour?) was coming to an end and the class was re-grouping, it was the substitute that missed Kyron she said: “oh no, there is only five, where is Kyron?”
(Only five, where is Kyron? Had she personally taken a group of six on tour? Or was she getting kids of six gathered to take the tour? Either way she fully expected Kyron to be there, as the sixth child of a group.)
Ms. Porter says: “Calm down, calm down,(was she hysterical?) he is probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water or something.” So the substitute left.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tAZ1FmHtcI
(Did the substitute testify before the GJ? Other parents must know who she is.)
Okay.. Ms. Porter, the school was chaotic; there were hundreds of people there. You saw Terri and Kyron early on in the classroom. Later, when the substitute (hysterically) noticed Kyron missing you thought he was in the bathroom or getting a drink of water. When Kyron didn’t return to class, did you even notice? When was it, Ms. Porter, that you “thought” Kyron must not have been getting a drink of water and was instead at a doctor’s appointment with Terri? Hundreds of people were at the school, at one point you “thought” he should be there, and at another point you “thought” he left with mom. Oh, and his backpack was in the classroom, and he didn’t show up for his part in the talent show. Ms. Porter, under the unusual circumstances of the chaotic science fair, wouldn’t a quick call to Terri or to the office to clarify his whereabouts be prudent?
This much information (even with missing pieces) was generated from a few clipped remarks from Tanner. LE asked his family not to go public with what they knew, but they did anyway. I can only imagine how much we would know if ALL the other people who witnessed things that morning went public.
We know that at least two teachers saw Terri and Kyron. One, Ms. Porter in Kyron’s classroom, and the second, saw them in another classroom looking at exhibits. We also know that Tanner saw Terri and Kyron. We know that PTA president, Zimmerman, saw Terri and Kyron. We also know without a doubt that lots of other people saw them too.
8:15 a.m. Gina Zimmerman, president of the school PTA, arrives and sees Kyron with his stepmother in front of his exhibit.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
Schreiber said Kyron was supposed to perform in the school’s talent show at 1 p.m. but she didn’t see him there.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html
Tanner is Kyron’s deskmate in their combined second-third grade classroom. Tanner says Kyron was in school for at least an hour Friday morning and that he saw Kyron’s step-mother leave the school without Kyron
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/Hormans-desk-mate-says-substitute-noticed-him/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx
Is there any evidence, other than what TH said, that Kyron was “spacing out?” and where did that come from? Did KH talk about that, was it DY, was it an e-mail from TH? TIA for you awesome research skills.
Makes you think that maybe nabbing Kyron was of a more personal nature — someone Bad who knew KH and TMH and/or was involved with them in something Bad – decided to Make Them Pay via Kyron. I just wonder what it is that the two of them, KH and TMH, know or have done and aren’t saying is the reason Kyron is not playing and having fun like other children his age. KH often reminds me of someone who doesn’t want to share all information, and could probably be more helpful, as could TMH. (Yes, I pretty much lump them together – I really do think they both care a lot about Kyron).
Forest Park is HUGE, lots of trees, hidey places.
@Rose says: October 14, 2012 at 6:41 pm
@January. I posed the question Why not the larger Forest Park which Margie answered with thoughtfulness. (TY). Not only Forest Park but every Portland el ed has Science Fairs. Someone had mentioned Forest Park’s geogr is very wild too. Margie pointed out as an el ed only, not middle, FPark has a huge parent involvement. It is also more accessible to downtown. Also at Skyline the 2 locations kids or Kyron were apt to be were right by open doors and accessible to parking.
Several posts still waiting moderation here, some since yesterday. Is everything okay up in Blink Central? I know there is a lot going on, and frankly, I sorely wish there wasn’t. Big Sigh. No, make that a HUGE sigh, I can’t wait until this list of missing children gets smaller. Seems like it just keeps growing….I hate it. Yes I do.
AAAH! Traveling through the wee hours with very limited 4G. In fact, it was fake 4G, because I was trying to moderate when I would stop for a few, and apparently that was not working as well.
Working on all this morning folks, thanks for your patience, has been a planes trains and automobiles trek since Thursday eve for me.
B
For reference, the following links to an image of the Skyline School layout. Grade room assignments have been added based on handbooks listed below.
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/quizzi1/Skyline%20School/SkylineClassrooms.jpg
With the 2008-2009 handbook used as a base and subsequent handbooks as additional reference, the following rearranged information indicates K-8 and other staff room assignments.
Administration And Office Staff
Office – Principal – Mr. Ben Keefer
Office – Principal’s Secretary – Mrs. Susan Hall
Classroom Teachers
K/1 Team
104 – K/1 – Mr. Scott McBeth
109 – K/1 – Ms. Easter Mathews
110 – K/1 – Mrs. Linda Cole
2/3 Team
215 – 2/3 – Mrs. Karen Hanson
213 – 2/3 – Ms. Kristina Porter
217 – 2/3 – Mrs. Melissa Ritter
4/5 Team
209 – 4/5 – Ms. Jessica Bostick
207 – 4/5 – Mrs. Vivian Colvin
211 – 4/5 – Mrs. Jill Koning
6/7/8 Team
103 – 6/7/8 – Mr. Brian Gardes – Language Arts/Social Studies
106 – 6/7/8 – Mrs. Katrina Frischmann – Math/Science
201 – 6/7/8 – Mr. Paul Mastin -Math/Language Arts
Specialists
Library – Library/Technology – Mrs. Skach
101B – Music – TBA
Gym – PE – Mrs. Joanne Romanaggi
203 – Spanish – TBA
203 – Counselor – Ms. Stephanie Cox
Custodial Staff
Boiler Office – Head Custodian – Kenny Moylan
Boiler Office – Evening Custodian – Vickie Ibarra
Nutrition Services Staff
Cafeteria Manager – Mrs. Diane Jones
Special Education Staff
105B – Resource Teacher – Mr. Lou Terrones
106B – Speech/Language Pathologist – Ms. Amy Kasch
106B – School Psychologist – Ms. Nancy Yates
Occupational Therapist – Mr. Mark Valeske
105B – Para-educator – Mrs. Alayna Pettingill
105B – Para-educator – Mrs. Tersea Gonzales
105B – Para-educator – Mr. Robert Salvia
105B – Para-educator – Mrs. Deborah Meskimen
Sources:
2008-2009
For staff list scroll past April.
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools/sunnyside/files/school-sunnyside/Parent_Handbook_2008-Final.pdf
I have yet to find a link to the 2009-2010 handbook.
2010-2011
For staff list scroll past April.
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools/skyline/files/mskach/Parentand_StudentHandbook_2010-11.pdf
2011-2012
For staff list scroll past April.
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools/skyline/files/mskach/Community_Calendar-Parent_Handbook_2011-12-Final.pdf
For the curious here is a handbook for 2003-2004.
For staff list scroll past December.
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools-c/pages/skyline/parents/parent_handbook.pdf
——————————————–
It would not be out of the question that Kyron would be interested in 4/5 projects in the rooms between the south stairs and his classroom, quite possibly a “cool one, the electric one”.
“serial killers & abductors normally move quickly through an area”
FBI: http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/jessica-ridgeway-case-update-ex-fbi-chief-says-jessicas-killer-could-act-again
@TRuth. The way Shelby, PPS’ Spokesperson, makes sense to me is CYA. Now if the statement came from an impartial attendee of the Fair….
The Cody & Arvada incidents remind us how quickly an
abductor can hit & opportunistically scoop & run,
and schools are fishing grounds. The Cody suspect apparently
got liquored up that morning & thus pushed the envelope. Who knows
how long he did this more sober, in how many states?
(and I could make it from say 8 pm in Arvada to Yellowstone
the next day easy.) Perhaps he ignored traffic/business cameras
because they’d not come to anything in other towns.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if the fbi in Kyron’s case had obtained enough
camera footage to id a suspicious vehicle, but MCSO didn’t tell the public
with a vehicle description because they couldn’t read the lic plate number
and couldn’t be sure it was the involved car. I bet mcso has an idea of the
vehicle that is unreleased.
and the Speer thing, if proven true legally, reminds us that felony
child abduction can be perpetrated by a person whose (ex)spouse,
girlfriend, & closest friends would not suspect.
Venetia says:
October 15, 2012 at 11:52 am
True too. Yes, so why weeks later are Desire & Kaine saying all they know is Terri dropped Kyron off at the school. Just plain weird. I don’t know about anyone else, but I wouldn’t have said that had I known she stayed and spent time there. I might have said this instead: All we know is Terri and Kyron were at the school sometime during the science fair and Terri left before school actually started. See, if she’s saying Terri “dropped off” Kyron, then how in the heck did she abscond with him? That phrase is basically saying Desiree knows for sure that Terri left that school sans Kyron. Enter SZ.
@Rose says:
October 16, 2012 at 9:18 am
O/T but it appears Jessica’s Ridgeway’s killer made a circle. Heading back home? This is one sick puppy, I hope and pray they find this guy soon.
Hi Blink……. my post from yesterday (4:36 pm) is still in moderation…..
I think everyone is up January, please let me know if I missed anything
B
Was I dreaming, wasn’t there supposed to be some sort of procedure done in court this week in Desiree’s civil case? I can’t find it, but I seem to recall, October 15? 19?
I did not know that Kaine Horman had already been notified he will be called to be deposed in the case (though not surprising), this tweet was from way back in September. So, are depositions going forward, or do the attorneys have to respond to Kantor’s three questions first? I’m confused as to the procedures going on here.
**********
Kyle Iboshi @KyleIboshi
Kyron’s father Kaine Horman confirms he’s been called to testify at upcoming deposition in civil suit.
3:55 PM – 10 Sep 12 · https://twitter.com/KyleIboshi/status/245294380716552192
MockingbirdSings says: October 15, 2012 at 1:43 am
———–
Interesting post MBS.. As I was reading it a thought occurred to me. Another “what if”…
A well-known theory says that there is always a little bit of truth in every lie. Maybe this theory comes into play (the little bit of truth)when Terri describes her stops at FM etc., and then driving Kiara around to lull her to sleep.
What if Terri had been asked by someone (she would never want Kaine to know about), to meet her early that morning. (Someone threatening her about money for the MFH?) Terri takes Kyron to school, goes in briefly, leaves the school earlier than she wanted people to believe, and then left. She runs to FM to get medicine that will help lull Kiara to sleep, and then heads to the meeting place. In this scenario the person(s) who asked Terri to rendezvous with them knew that in order for her to make the meeting on time, she wouldn’t be with Kyron at the school during the busy SF prior to school staring. Maybe someone was at the school following Terri and Kyron, knew the exact moment Terri left, and then took Kyron.
These scenarios also connect a few more dots. The person takes Kyron to insure they get the money Terri owes them. Terri shows up at meeting place without money and tries to buy time. She finds out – at that point – that Kyron has been taken, and is told Kyron will die if she doesn’t pay. Terri panics, drives around, goes to gym as not to be home alone, goes home and ranticly waits for fallout. At this point she sends Ms. Porter an email about when to pick up Kyron’s project (testing the water to see if Kyron is really missing?) Then she lies like heck on her poly. (A little bit of truth, a few lies)
Meanwhile, under her attorneys’ watchful eyes, and in the safety of her parents’ home, she points the finger at Rudy. Maybe, Rudy didn’t actually know the plan about taking Kyron. Maybe he was just the middleman. It may have been out of his hands by then. Maybe LE knows this story. Maybe the status quo remains in place while they track down the actual perp. Could this be why Kaine believes Kyron is still alive? Could this be why LE says Rudy is a credible witness? Could this be why Terri isn’t talking? Is Desiree just sick of waiting?
January says:
October 16, 2012 at 2:03 pm
MockingbirdSings says: October 15, 2012 at 1:43 am
———–
Interesting post MBS.. As I was reading it a thought occurred to me. Another “what if”…
A well-known theory says that there is always a little bit of truth in every lie.
@January – yes – I was writing as you posted. Good thoughts. Those little grains of truth may be all we have for now.
——————–
Rose says:
October 15, 2012 at 12:10 pm
@MbS re #2: “Terri should have supervised him until 9 …”.
What time was the first bell? the second bell?
Imo her “legal” obligation was over with the first bell. and, goodness,
he could’ve been a “walker” on a non-Open House day like Jessica.
But I have been & know parents (and school buses) to deliver a bit early
in the morning, and late to pick up, and we are not bad, just ADD or over-workloaded, with long suffering kids.
TH obligation to “supervise” Ky ended when she entered the building during school hours and he was officially in attendance, period. From then on, the duty of care belongs squarely with the school.
You know the one, not named in the civil suit.
B
—————————————-
Herein lies the rub – The science fair (according to GZ and the sign outside the school) was from 8 to 10. The daily schedule was:
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/news/4398.htm
Skyline 8:35 buses arrive 8:45 school begins
3:00 school ends 3:05 buses leave
3:30 time bus arrived at Kyron’s home
There was no “late opening” June 4th, so the 2010 schedule shown here officially remained the same. Occasionally it has been said that the school opened early so parents could view the fair on the way to work. One report put it this way: “Kyron Horman was last seen at Skyline Elementary School on June 4, 2010. He was at a pre-class science fair, where he was photographed, but then he disappeared.” (http://www.katu.com/news/local/167927125.html)
We’ve been told Terri and Kyron were in Mrs. Porter’s classroom shortly after 8 AM, dropping off his backpack and jacket and taking the photos, as well as (probably) talking to Mrs. Zimmerman not long after that time. One could argue that at this point, Mrs. Porter was responsible for Kyron since he was in her classroom. However, one could also argue that she wasn’t, because Terri and Kyron left the room together to go see other exhibits.
It’s hard to believe that Terri would walk into the room where Mrs. Porter was and say nothing to her at all, especially when she supposedly helped out in the classroom and had the discipline reports coming home every day. Ages ago, someone wrote that Terri told Mrs. Porter that she and Kyron were going to walk around together and look at the exhibits. I see no reason to believe that wasn’t true since apparently that’s what they did. IF true, then as a teacher, I would expect the parent to be responsible until the child was returned to me.
The plan was for students to meet in their classrooms, be assigned to a volunteer and group, and walk around together starting at 9. Students who came on the bus and did not have a parent there should have gone to their classrooms and waited for the tours to start. There should have been a bell at 8:45 to mark the time kids should be in their classrooms and probably (not sure since this is an individual school’s decision) a warning bell at 8:40. The only way the bells would not have rung is if they were manually turned off and I don’t see any reason for that. The time between 8:45 and 9 would have been for organizing and reviewing directions.
I wonder if any notice went to parents saying you are invited to the science fair “before school” and reminding them that school would officially start at the same time – stating or implying that parents were responsible for their children until the bell rang unless other arrangements were made. Probably not, since Skyline did not seem too worried about details, which IMO led to the “hectic day”.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i…on_horman.html
Quote:
Nora Schreiber, a Skyline parent and volunteer, said the school has three main entrances and one secure exit. Two of the doorways are near the main office and are monitored, while a third on the north side of the school is not. Kyron’s classroom is adjacent to that door, which opens onto a rear parking lot.
Schreiber said she and her son, J,,,,,,,,, 9, were interviewed Sunday by a federal agent. She said she told the agent that Friday was an especially hectic day at Skyline.
“On a normal day, seeing a stranger will make you go, ‘Hmm. I wonder who that is?’ On such a hectic day as Friday, there was such a lot going on. To tell you the truth, I was focused on looking at the (science) project and helping J…….. fill out his (evaluation) form and not on the faces around me.”
(end quote)
I certainly hold the school and Mrs. Porter responsible, as I have said before, but I can’t totally relieve Terri of responsibility. If she had said she saw him go into his classroom rather than she saw him walk down the hall toward his classroom, then yes. IMO, she didn’t say she saw him go into the classroom (she could easily have lied – it would still be her word vs Mrs. Porter’s), because she knew he didn’t. I don’t know what she did see, but I believe she knew he did not go into his classroom. She wrote that she “thought he was in good hands” as he walked down the hall – whose hands would he have been in if she saw him walk alone to the classroom door?
I know it could be figuratively speaking – but it’s quite possible that when she left she saw him walking with someone else, perhaps even knew who and why. There’s that little grain of truth – “in . . .hands.” JMO
Someone asked when first bell rang, this looks like it was indeed @ 8:45:
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools-c/bell_bus-schedules_09-10.pdf
(Would explain why Terri knew she last saw Kyron at exactly 8:45, the bell rang.)
Yep, bus arrives at 8:35AM-
B
@quizzical:
I’m pretty sure we used to be able to see the 2009-2010 Skyline Parent Handbook. None of my links work anymore. How is it your links say “Sunnyside” and yet come up with Skyline’s handbook? Curious. (Just reminded me of that creepy poem “on the sunnyside, where you should be”.)
@Mbs, With all due respect, what is the difference between a child coming to school on the bus, and walking down the hall to their classroom, and a child being left in the hall to walk to their classroom?
Here’s a post from 6/19/10 over on Websleuths, so I guess the 2009-10 Handbook wasn’t available even then, or they were using the 2008 handbook and did not issue a new 2009 handbook?
stillwatersc
06-19-2010, 10:36 AM
School Handbook is dated 2008 – looks like it wasn’t updated for the most recent school year:
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools/skyline/files/school-skyline/Parent_Handbook_2008-Final.pdf
From Handbook:
Building Security
All parents, visitors and volunteers are required to checkin at the office prior to entering any other portion of the building. Identification tags are to be worn by all adults in the building during school hours. For security purposes, only the main entrance and East door will be unlocked during school hours. All other doors will be locked or monitored, as required by our district’s security policy. Please assist us as you enter or exit the building and check to see that doors are closed securely. If you are in our building and notice individuals without an identification badge, please ask them to register in the office.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106904&page=2
imo PPS was responsible from the moment he entered the school
and the first bell rang whether he was with Terri or another parent,
volunteer, or a Muppett (go marchers). There are school procedures and policies
to be followed whether a parent, or a wide array of flotsam and jetsam adults,
are on the premises before or after the bell or not.
This was a school-sponsored activity with
volunteers and chaperones, as well as the visiting public. It could have easily been
a field trip to the Columbia River. PPS is responsible for a child even when a parent
is along chaperoning a field trip. That’s why schools have chaperone
guidelines. Mrs Porter was accountable from the moment Bell 2 rang and the class assembled.
She could mark him absent promptly and then tOffice was responsible to notify the home in the
absence of a note. policy & procedure was followed in Westminster. I would have moved Porter to an
organized school with a strict principal & older mentors. While the Secr has been there a long time, is doubtless beloved & has outlasted many principals, I’d have moved her to Central Office without direct child
accountability responsibility in future.
when I read today in OLive the BOE thinks Carol is on the right track with a 62 %
graduation rate, I understand nothing will change accountability-wise without BOE change.
That’s where parents started in my County over a decade ago.
HuffPost or some site recently listed the 10 hardest States to make a living wage. I think OR was 7th. WVa did better (10th?). I understand the economy is hard in OR with budget cuts, but budget cuts can’t be the excuse when front line individuals don’t follow policy & procedure with children on school premises resulting in abduction & probable death, whoever dun it.
@TRuth. OT. Yellowstone was like a second home to the alleged rapist. I can see someone who knows the Park intimately heading for lava beds like a homing pidgeon for disposal purposes. He was not at Yellowstone long enough on 10/7 to have entered the park for the hiking/back country photos he features. But he’d have known disposal sites imo.
MockingbirdSings says:
October 16, 2012 at 3:54 pm
I certainly hold the school and Mrs. Porter responsible, as I have said before, but I can’t totally relieve Terri of responsibility. If she had said she saw him go into his classroom rather than she saw him walk down the hall toward his classroom, then yes.
————-
So in line with your reasoning about when the school should become responsible Kyron’s safety.
If I had a child that attended Skyline school and I dropped him off in front of the building saw him go inside and he was abducted somewhere between entering the school and his class then the school would not be responsible for him going missing or at the very least I would share fault with the school for his abduction because I did not walk the child to their class.
or
What about a child arrives on a bus but goes missing between where they got off the bus and their classroom. would the bus driver share responsibility because the bus driver did not walk said child to the classroom.
I agree with Blink as long as Kyron in the school building or on school grounds for an organized school event or just on the way to class the school should be fully responsible for their safety.
-snip
TH obligation to “supervise” Ky ended when she entered the building during school hours and he was officially in attendance, period. From then on, the duty of care belongs squarely with the school.
You know the one, not named in the civil suit.
B
I thought I’d seen all relations in this family by now, but I’ve never seen this name before:
http://www.peoplefinders.com/search/preview.aspx?searchtype=people-name&item-id=OP-203829695&fn=sandra&mn=m&ln=frauenheim&city=&state=OR&age=&dobmm=&dobdd=&doby=
Anyone know who this is and how she is related?
T. Ruth says:
October 15, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Also, makes me wonder if Terri Horman ever even went down to the gym or the basement or wherever to see the older kids’ projects. I think it’s possible she & Kyron only viewed the projects within the younger kids classrooms.
———–
I have always thought that if TH had Kiara with her and Kiara was in a stroller that TH would have avoided going down stairs because if the inconvenience of getting a child and a stroller up and down stairs. Maybe she told Kyron he could see the cool electric exhibit after she left and he toured the SF with a group from his class. IMO maybe Kyron got impatient and decided to go see the cool electric one on his own after TH left.
See.. I am old school..and as much as I would love to hold the school and teacher responsible..I know it anin’t so in this case. The school and teacher were both under the assumption that Terri was taking Kyron to a doctors appointment..per Terri’s info to the teacher..and a form to fill out for the doctor if my memory isn’t too shaky. If that is the case..she set the scene for his abduction..rather she knew he would ever be coming back is only up for grabs. I still believe Terri orchestrated this to the final degree..was she made to in order to cover other deeds or was she just sick and tired of being Kyron’s caretaker..until she speaks or those involved we will never know. But the school had every reason to believe per Terri that Kyron would be leaving that day for a doctors appointment..and she even made certain that no one else knew about that appointment nor the talent contest later in the school day.
No loss of sleep for Terri..no hard life..she is still being taken care of by someone other then herself..now her parents. Terri never matured into a fully responsible adult or parent..she skimmed money, sex and time were ever she could..now she is just back at her parents doing the same….
@T.Ruth
(snipped)”I agree it’s odd as hell that no one mentions seeing the baby inside that school. How do you miss a little cherub like baby K and not mention her? Kaine Horman has confirmed to us that Kiara was with Terri that morning. However, I don’t recall him actually saying Kiara was inside the school with her. This has always made me wonder if Terri left Kiara in the truck, either because she was sleeping….(Isn’t that illegal? fail LDT?)….or, because someone else was with Terri Horman that morning and they and baby K stayed in the truck. Carol Moulton? IDK, but this has always bothered me, no one inside mentioning they saw the baby with Terri is very weird.”
—————————————————————-
List of attendees at Skyline School June 4 2010 “Minor child of Kaine and Terri Horman”.
@cd
You said, “I have always thought that if TH had Kiara with her and Kiara was in a stroller that TH would have avoided going down stairs because if the inconvenience of getting a child and a stroller up and down stairs. Maybe she told Kyron he could see the cool electric exhibit after she left and he toured the SF with a group from his class. IMO maybe Kyron got impatient and decided to go see the cool electric one on his own after TH left.”
I’ve been reading up and this sounds the most probable to me. The Tanner “appearance” in this case was what shifted my suspician of TMH to questions about why the public was getting so many conflicting messages about whether she was the a prime suspect or not. A couple thoughts on this:
1. Tanner was told not to talk. So were the parents at Skyline. So were the very ones (teachers) that might have seen something crucial but never were able to discuss it once LE or PPS dismissed it, or didn’t seem interested in it.
2. Tanner’s family was not on the list, so he probably arrived around 8:35 on the bus. This means he could have passed TMH on his way in and therefore knew she was leaving with Kyron.
3. That the substitute/volunteer left….ie “….he’s probably in the bathroom…and so she left” suggests strongly that the touring is over when the count was taken.
4. According to the map I posted earlier the gym was on Kyron’s floor, across from the office. That might have been where Kyron got “lost” by the volunteer. Keep in mind that often the “volunteer” is a parent of someone in that group. The volunteer might have been more interested in her own kid in that case, and with prolly 5 elementary classes passing through that gym from 9am-9:45 she could have easily lost sight of him. The older kids (6th, 7th, and 8th) are in the basement rooms and I believe they might have had their projects up in their rooms because the cafeteria is in the basement.
5. Tanner could have passed Kyron at any time during the rooms or the gym exhibits. He could have even NOT gone downstairs but was refering to a “cool one” on the other side of the gym.
6. If the “cool one” was near that door that was unlocked and leads to that inner, secluded parking lot it would be only a matter of seconds for him to be out of the gym and into someone’s car.
7. But that someone would have had to have known where and when to park a car, so it is unlikely that someone was just passing by, saw the free-for-all sign and dropped in to perp a kid.
8. Last, i’ve been on both sides of these kinds of events. Porter probably had time while kids were touring to mark Kyron absent if she really felt he was not coming back. It was Wednesday of the following week when Shelby finally stated Kyron had been marked absent at 10am. That means she went to her computer when all the kids were re-congregating. After she had told the volunteer she’d look for Kyron?
Also, Shelby could have called the PPS tech department and found out specifically as soon as Friday night. Why did it take 5 days for the school and LE to decide he was marked at 10am? Could it be (just speculating) that 10am was the “official” time that tardies/absences were to be marked and therefore the
school wouldn’t be negligent by not marking Kyron absent? But then what about the backpack, lunch, and poster? Porter also assumed TMH would be coming back? When did she stop assuming that? Was she still in her room when TMH and Kaine came to the school? If not, then she just walked out forgetting about what the volunteer had said or what her room looked like?
Well, we’ll probably never know ….. wouldn’t this be one of the records the school lost and LE didn’t request? You’d think it would be a crucial one to keep.
When Kyron “left” the sight of the teachers was not the focus of the case, though, was it?
Sorry, in above comments:::: I meant Tanner knew she was leaving WITHOUT Kyron.
I also meant to stress that when LE/PPS told everyone to not talk they were effectively telling people that they would be the ones to decide if something was important or not. If you are told once that your testimony was suspect and to keep quiet why would you go back to LE if you remembered something else?
Which is it..TH saw Kyron walking towards his class room or TH saw Kyron with a male chaperone. Was Kyron walking to his class room with the male chaperone?
@Gypsy DD says:
October 16, 2012 at 7:02 pm
(snipped)
But the school had every reason to believe per Terri that Kyron would be leaving that day for a doctors appointment..and she even made certain that no one else knew about that appointment nor the talent contest later in the school day.
***********
I’d have no problem agreeing with you, except there was a report where Jaymie Finster (yes, a friend of Terri’s, and yes hearsay) said that Terri told her she gave Porter, the day before, June 3rd, paperwork on Kyron’s alleged doctor appointment allegedly scheduled for the following Friday, June 11th. (Last day of school was IIRC the 15th)
Here’s the problem for me……why has no one ever, in two freakin’ years, come forward and discounted that statement, or even vise-verse? We’re in limbo. Kaine Horman virtually admitted there was indeed an appointment scheduled AND that there was no appointment scheduled for that day.
IMO if LE determined the appointment was scheduled for June 4, we would know by now and no one would be saying there was any confusion, Terri would be in jail. IOW, why didn’t Terri take him to his scheduled appointment that day, and why did she leave his coat and backpack at the school if he had an appointment that SHE made? This would also make Kaine Horman a liar, because he has said that Kyron had no appointment for that day.
Now, if LE determined there was no appointment made at all for any day, well, then Kaine Horman is still a liar,….and so would be a couple of teachers who “thought he went to the doctor”, and so would Terri Horman for saying she made an appointment in the future. So, I’m guessing there was indeed an appointment made for Kyron, the question is for when? If the appointment was actually scheduled for June 11th, and that is what the paperwork Terri gave to Porter said, then…..who’s the liar?
Kaine doesn’t deny an appointment (anymore), but told us it wasn’t on June 4. Terri said there was an appointment since day 1, according to JF, scheduled for June 11. Kristina Porter says there was an appointment, or at least she “thought” so, for June 4. (Who is the other teacher that “thought” Kyron had an appointment and why don’t we know who it is? And why do they only say they “thought” Kyron had an appointment on June 4? )
We just don’t have the facts, but LE does and because of the way they are holding it so close, I’m thinking it’s to protect the school’s mistake. Why would they protect Terri or Kaine? Would they hesitate to admit that PPS made a gross mistake, yes. They all get paid from the same wallet, taxpayers. If that school is sued for negligence, the ultimate payer is none other than the taxpayer. There is a reason MCSD has not given up control of this case. AMOO
Now, as far as Terri making sure no one knew about the talent show? Well, I don’t think that’s quite true. Firstly, there was a huge sign out front that advertised it and according to a post by “neighbor” here, Kaine Horman was at the school the afternoon of the June 3rd. (I have no idea how long the sign was up?) Also, at least two other people that I’ve seen interviewed indicated that Kyron was supposed to be in the talent show. These were other parents. I’m quite sure Kyron’s teacher would have known if he was to be in the talent show…..let’s see, who else???? hmmmm, maybe the person running the talent show (who IIRC auditioned the kids the day before) well, that person would also know Kyron was to be in the talent show. Odd, isn’t it? No one who knew Kyron was supposed to be in the talent show bothered to wonder where the heck he was? E.T. Phone Home?
Why didn’t one person realize something was amiss? Sounds to me like at least one adult did…..TP’s substitute/chaperone: “there’s only 5, where’s Kyron?” And to this day, we have no idea who this person even is. Odd.
Gypsy DD says:
October 16, 2012 at 7:02 pm
(snipped)
No loss of sleep for Terri..no hard life..she is still being taken care of by someone other then herself..now her parents. Terri never matured into a fully responsible adult or parent..she skimmed money, sex and time were ever she could..now she is just back at her parents doing the same….
——————————————————————
Respectfully, I honestly do not understand the above statements. We have no information released by LE that proves that TH has done anything illegal, or, even just wrong. Zip. I don’t know her. I know almost nothing about her. The rumors about her? I don’t see them as facts. I see them as — rumors.
I would like some evidence made public in this case.
DD is one of my dearest, butfor now she and I disagree in this case, which is unusual.
I say for now, because I have always said it is possible TH is involved, and statistically probable.
However, I am on record a few thousand times over that I have yet to see any compelling evidence or plausible scenario that she is, that matches the verified facts in this case.
Specifically, the single biggest problem being Ky did not leave the school with her, and LE has not identified SZ.
I think we all agree information in this case needs to be released.
B
erose says:
October 16, 2012 at 4:40 pm
@Mbs, With all due respect, what is the difference between a child coming to school on the bus, and walking down the hall to their classroom, and a child being left in the hall to walk to their classroom?
———————————–
Timing and “herding”. When buses unload students, every school I’ve ever worked in or observed has one or more people assigned to meet the buses and make sure kids go to class. It is generally the same time period that parents are arriving to drop kids off, or kids who walked to school are expected to arrive. Anyone who arrives later than the final bell is expected to check in at the office before going to class. In the lower grades at least, someone would walk the student to class. Anyone who comes too soon also checks into the office to wait until teachers are in their classrooms.
I don’t know the current PPS teacher contract but the one I worked under required teachers to be present 15 minutes before and 15 minutes after the school’s official student day (and had not changed for decades, if ever). VERY few teachers ever regularly worked such short days, but it was their legal right to do that. Skyline, by announcing the science fair as 8 to 10 AM, extended their responsibility for students to the earlier time, but instead of tightening procedures to cover the changes, it appears they relaxed the rules. Teachers, by contract, are not required to extend their day except in certain circumstances a limited number of times a year. Administrators don’t have that sort of contract. I doubt if any Skyline teacher would not want to come in early for the Science Fair – that isn’t the point. It’s about where the responsibility lies and whether parents were expecting for their children a level of security which was knowingly not provided. Which leads me to –
Something has never fit together in my mental picture of Kyron going to class. When the warning bell rang as usual, kids should have started moving to class if they hadn’t already. This would have been the same time that kids from the buses were also going to class. You’d think a flow of students would have carried Kyron right along with them into class. Kyron also knew he was going to tour the exhibits – why would he not go on to class in order to see something he would be seeing again on the tour – why not go along with his friends to class? And why does it always sound like he and Terri were alone or almost alone in the hall as he walked to class? Who saw her waving good-by to him?
These (above) are more reasons why I wonder if she left earlier than 8:45 – along with Shelby’s quote: “. . . another instructor reported seeing him in another classroom at some point.” (“him”, not “them”)