Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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Barnett confirms school staff saw Kyron and TH touring the SF.
School spokesperson Erin Barnett:
ERIN BARNETT: It’s an opportunity for the parents to be there with their children, and go in between the classrooms and seeing the different exhibits, and taking pride in their child’s accomplishments, and I think this is a—just a very, very proud morning for Kyron.
Later that day, Kyron’s stepmom, Terri, posted this photo on her Facebook account of her beaming stepson next to his completed science project.
ERIN BARNETT: Staff saw him, you know, with his stepmom and, you know, looking at his exhibits and, you know, just like the other families who were here.
Then the morning bell rang. The regular school day was beginning. Time for kids to head to their classrooms and for their parents to start to filter out. A routine part of the day that would later become a critical moment for investigators.
Terri Horman said around 8:45 in the morning, the last time she saw her stepson Kyron, he was walking down this hallway in his school on his way to his second grade classroom.
It’s unclear exactly who, if anyone, saw him after that point, or where, but Ms. Porter started class as usual, reading group, then recess, then lunch. At some point in the day, Kyron was marked absent.
——————————————————————-
Here is KH saying “dropped off” and note KH and TH were not together in the office when DY asked where they were. TH was there, KH was not. Wasn’t it too soon for him to be speaking to LE? Who was KH talking with? Keefer? Porter? Why didn’t DY call KH? Why didn’t KH call DY? It wasn’t as if the school handed TH the phone, DY hung up and then called TH, because she was told TH was there, but not told KH was at the school. Why was she not told KH was there? (ie TH is here, and Kyron’s father is speaking with the principal.) I realize it is probably semantics, but was DY even made aware that KH was at the school?
KAINE HORMAN: Not really. I don’t remember much of the conversation other than just, ‘Where could he be? What happened today? You know, you dropped him off at school.’ Just kind of walking through her morning, but it was so quick because we were at the school within about five minutes, so there wasn’t a lot of dialogue.
Five hours south in Medford, Oregon, Kyron’s biological mother, Desiree, was about to get looped in to the nightmarish reality developing at her son’s school.
DESIREE YOUNG: I got a phone call from the school, and she said, ‘Is this Desiree Young?’ And I said, `Yes it is.’ And she said, `You’re listed as the emergency notification for Kyron Horman?’ And I said, `Yeah, he’s my son. What could I do?’ And she said, `I have to notify you, he’s missing.’ And for a split second I thought it was a joke, and I said, `What?’ She said, `He’s missing.’ I said, `I don’t understand. How could he be missing?’ I said, `OK, where is Terri and Kaine?’ `Well, Terri’s here.’ `All right. Thank you.’ And I hung up with her, and immediately called Terri, and I cussed a little bit, said, `What the hell’s going on?’ And she said that they went to the science fair and everything was fine and she waved goodbye to him, and he went into his class, or so she thought.
link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38420266/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/little-boy-lost/
Huge disconnects.
DESIREE YOUNG: Yeah. It was pretty hard to handle. I cried solid for two months and didn’t leave the bedroom because I didn’t understand why she somehow equated to something that was better than me and my son.
Kaine, however, insists that he and Desiree had broken up before he stated seeing Terri, agreeing to live separate lives under the same roof just until their baby came along.
More disconnects.
KATE SNOW: There had been no indication in your marriage –
KAINE HORMAN: No.
KATE SNOW: – that things were that bad or that she was upset with you?
KAINE HORMAN: No.
Another one.
DESIREE YOUNG: He wanted to come live with us. He expressed that on several occasions. And just several times he would just break down and just sob because he wanted to stay.
Kaine, Kyron’s father, says he didn’t see a change in Kyron, but Desiree wonders if she should have acted on her gut feeling, because she and Tony now believe not only that Terri was involved in Kyron’s disappearance, but that it had been in the works for a while.
And in my words…
Another curious disconnect for me is the fear for his daughter’s safety, so much so that his temporary residence was private, and then a short time later moved back in to the very home where the whole world could find them.
same link.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38420266/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/little-boy-lost/
Absolutely. I don’t see it here, but I also remembering him say she had a brief period of PPD, had been medicated for a bit, and was off that medication recently. I would think PPD meds or anti-depressants mixed with all that ETOH would have created a more visible profile of TH for someone to notice?
B
Gypsy DD says:
October 16, 2012 at 7:02 pm
See.. I am old school..and as much as I would love to hold the school and teacher responsible..I know it anin’t so in this case. The school and teacher were both under the assumption that Terri was taking Kyron to a doctors appointment..per Terri’s info to the teacher..and a form to fill out for the doctor if my memory isn’t too shaky. If that is the case..she set the scene for his abduction..rather she knew he would ever be coming back is only up for grabs. I still believe Terri orchestrated this to the final degree..was she made to in order to cover other deeds or was she just sick and tired of being Kyron’s caretaker..until she speaks or those involved we will never know. But the school had every reason to believe per Terri that Kyron would be leaving that day for a doctors appointment..and she even made certain that no one else knew about that appointment nor the talent contest later in the school day.
No loss of sleep for Terri..no hard life..she is still being taken care of by someone other then herself..now her parents. Terri never matured into a fully responsible adult or parent..she skimmed money, sex and time were ever she could..now she is just back at her parents doing the same….
*******
Porter ASSUMED Kyron was with Terri. “School is responsible” for not verifying Kyron’s whereabouts, not asking for visitors to sign in and not having someone man the doors.
The rest is all based on the rumor mill and zero facts to back it up.
“If” Terri is responsible, she was “not” the one who took Kyron from the school.
IMO…… SZ
Hi all. OT: I know the Jessica Ridgeway case is on everyone’s minds. Where I live we have a 22nd anniversary of an abduction/murder of a 10 year old this week: Amy Mihaljevic. Our local LE is taking this latest incident very seriously:
Bay Village Press Release from the Police Department:
On Monday, October 15, 2012 at approximately 3:10pm, a 10 year old female Bay Village Middle School student exited the school bus with other students on Walmar and Carlton. As she walked north on Walmar, she was contacted by a male in van. The male said “Hi” and asked the young girl to “get in”. http://www.cityofbayvillage.com/media/129780/possible_enticement_blue_caravan_10-16-12.pdf
I think we all agree information in this case needs to be released.
B
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I could not agree more, Blink.
The irony of the SZ “having masterful IT skills” and thinking that
with these skills, he has not tapped into the accumulated LE intel
on the case is naive, IMO. Think Occupy/Anonymous- hacking various
LE links from local LEOs to FBI.
I would bet that SZ knows a whole lot more than any of us (Blinkers).
2 + years out, how could it hurt to publish some factoids re: SZ?
The case has been in stall mode (cold case) for over a year.
Speaking of information, is the school, Part 2, progressing despite planes, trains, automobikes and other occupying child abductions? Any info appreciated.
Caseload and caseload of collaborators are my brick wall at the moment without any letters on my Varsity Sweater.
B
Panda says:
October 15, 2012 at 5:57 pm
Is there any evidence, other than what TH said, that Kyron was “spacing out?” and where did that come from? Did KH talk about that, was it DY, was it an e-mail from TH? TIA for you awesome research skills.
************
The comment about Kyron acting strange and walking into the middle of a room and just staring, came from an email Terri wrote to someone whose identity we don’t know. :
“The past 2 weeks he’s been acting really weird. Staring off into space. Can’t remember anything. Walks into the room and then back out, stopping to stare and then move on. The doc thinks that he is having mini seizures and I made an appt on Thursday for next Friday to have him checked out.”
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html
**********
Kaine Horman said in an interview, that he thought Kyron’s recent behavior was due to sleep deprivation and that only Terri thought Kyron needed to see a doctor. So yes, he noticed something *off* too, note his own self-contradiction here, first he says he didn’t see anything wrong, but then he says what he saw wrong he chalked off to sleep deprivation. (This is also the story where he says there was no doctor appointment scheduled for June 4, which confirms Terri’s email. Terri says the appointment was for the following Friday, June 11.):
“I didn’t see anything out of the ordinary,” he says. “I wasn’t concerned about it at all.”
Kaine says Terri was the one who was pushing Kyron to a doctor to be checked out.
Kaine attributed the staring spells to sleep deprivation. In the weeks leading up to Kyron’s disappearance, the baby – Kiara – had been dealing with an ear infection. He says her crying at night was keeping the whole family up, especially Kyron, whose room is right across the hall.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/122554994.html
@erose says:
October 17, 2012 at 5:04 am
Oh yeah, the “disconnects” could fill volumes. What we need here are some “connects”.
****************
Regarding the chaperone/substitute/teachers aid/volunteer, whateveh, I have long wondered if the person was not an adult. If an older student had been in charge of that particular group of six kids, I think LE would not release the name of that girl. (We know it was a female, because of Tanner’s statements.) This may even be the reason that LE asked Tanner and other kids and their charges not to talk about it. *Neighbor* here, also confirmed that some of the chaperones were indeed older students. Whatever happened, what a horrible experience for a young girl if Kyron went missing on her watch, whether it had anything to do with her being negligent or not, can you imagine? Even if she noticed right off that bat, before they left for touring and Porter said go ahead and go, can you imagine how she might have felt when she found it little Kyron was missing? Heartache that she wasn’t more persistent. I just have a gut feeling that this chaperone was a teenage girl.
I know a lot of you have done some extensive research on some of the teachers who have left Skyline since Kyron went missing. I see a name on the 2008-09 list that quiz posted upthread, that I hadn’t noticed before. Robert Salvia, paraeducator. Does anyone know if this guy was teaching at Skyline at any time during the 2009-2010 year?
Thank you for the thoughtful answer. My take away is if TH left him in the hall at 8:35 or later then he is part of the herd, if she left him sooner he was not.
MockingbirdSings says:
October 17, 2012 at 2:53 am
snip>
Timing and “herding.”
PPD
“I was just supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period, which I did do,” he said. “And after the six months, things seemed to be OK.”
http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-983-kaine_horman_kyrons_stepmom_suffered_post_partum_d.html
Same link:
Horman said he’s not sure what type of medication his wife was on or when she stopped taking it.
snipped from your link:
“As far as I’m concerned, probably up until a month or two before Kyron was gone — and then she could have been hiding it at that point,” Kaine Horman said.
He said the illness manifested in rapid mood swings.
“It wasn’t anything that was overly violent in nature,” Horman said. “It was just really erratic types of swings, from being very emotional to suddenly being very frustrated.”
Horman said he’s not sure what type of medication his wife was on or when she stopped taking it.
“I was just supposed to watch her closely for a six-month period, which I did do,” he said. “And after the six months, things seemed to be OK.”
This man has a serious problem being succint in such a critically important issue.
B
Hi Blink,
Do you think Skyline’s decreasing population (despite a statistical move to not allow automatic transfers to the local middle school) will ever be examined in terms of how many parents withdrew or never enrolled their children due to the Kyron controversy. And given that Ms. Porter appears to be a teflon-teacher what does that say about the district? And will we ever know if she, indeed, had paperwork to fill-out regarding the “upcoming?” appointment?
Also…I wrote a bit on the school yesterday and saw the comments were being held. Any word on those?
thanx
I am behind, appollies, but would ask all to double check the comments selection on your end, it should be set to “newer”.
That said, I have no idea, but I am well aware of the mini exodus.
B
Hi Again,
And don’t know why, but the computer arbitarily assigns either “vw” or “margie” to my posts. Anyway I can fix it to just one?
thanx
Gypsy DD says:
October 16, 2012 at 7:02 pm
@Gypsy
Im not trying to be snarky here I am just pointing out the parts of your post I disagree with.
1. I am old school..and as much as I would love to hold the school and teacher responsible..I know it anin’t so in this case. The school and teacher were both under the assumption that Terri was taking Kyron to a doctors appointment
2. No loss of sleep for Terri..no hard life..she is still being taken care of by someone other then herself..now her parents.
3. Terri never matured into a fully responsible adult or parent..she skimmed money, sex and time were ever she could
4. But the school had every reason to believe per Terri that Kyron would be leaving that day for a doctors appointment..and she even made certain that no one else knew about that appointment nor the talent contest later in the school day.
———————
IMO
1. I have never heard that the “school” thought Kyron had a doctors appt only MS. Porter. I also believe that if TH had paperwork for a doctors appt scheduled for June 11 then the staff/teacher at the school should have been aware enough to read the date correctly. Why would TH give the school a fake form to the teacher to fill out when it would only point to her involvement later. I don’t believe that a form was a requirement for keeping a child out of class for a doctors appt. So why would TH bother with a form if the doctors appt was fake anyway.
2. That is opinion only. With all of the public animosity generated by this case where would you suggest TH stay.
3. I have never read proof of any of those claims. Whom do you think she skimmed monies from. Maybe you think she was not entitled to child support for her son. Yes she was married 3 times but then so was Desiree do you believe Desiree is a person using sex to skim for money also.
4. I have never heard it mentioned that TH kept the talent show a secret from anyone. I can’t believe that at some point KY did not mention the talent show to Kaine.
Also what is your definition of “Old School” as it relates to this case.
MockingbirdSings says:
October 17, 2012 at 2:53 am
(snipped)
Something has never fit together in my mental picture of Kyron going to class. When the warning bell rang as usual, kids should have started moving to class if they hadn’t already. This would have been the same time that kids from the buses were also going to class. You’d think a flow of students would have carried Kyron right along with them into class. Kyron also knew he was going to tour the exhibits – why would he not go on to class in order to see something he would be seeing again on the tour – why not go along with his friends to class? And why does it always sound like he and Terri were alone or almost alone in the hall as he walked to class? Who saw her waving good-by to him?
***********
Good question. Why is Kyron passing Tanner or vise-verse, why if it’s 8:45 aren’t they traveling in the same direction toward their class? Was it before 8:45, did Terri leave immediately after taking the picture between 8:15 & 8:30? I suppose since class doesn’t actually start til 9:00 (is that correct?), it’s possible Kyron could have been excited about seeing this particular cool electric one and dashed downstairs, thinking he’d be back in class by 9:00.
I think the key to this whole scenario is when did T.K. see Kyron….sans Terri with a group of kids. If it was before 8:45, we can assume Terri left earlier than she said. Actually, I guess if it was before the classes started touring, then we can assume Kyron took off on his own after Terri left, no matter what time she did, or Terri was still at school but let Kyron go off on his own? If it was after classes started touring, we can assume Kyron had been in class and assigned to someone.
Hard tellin’, not knownin’. LOL I don’t think we have enough information to solve this puzzle, not even this little part. I wonder if LE does? They may not.
Blink tells us Kyron was seen at some point with an unidentified male (SZ). The timing on that would also help us solve this part of the puzzle. Is this SZ, the person who told Kyron about the cool electric one? Was this person waiting for Kyron to appear at exactly the right moment, when everyone else in that school was headed to class? Did SZ plan it that way? Did SZ tell Kyron at some point, “Look you gotta’ come see this one before all the other kids, I’ll show you how it works, give you your own demonstration, let you run it, but I can’t do that if your teacher is around, so meet me just before class.” I don’t know that’s kind of a stretch because…..when would this conversation have taken place? That’s a lot of planning, however, Blink does say this was well planned. So maybe Kyron was running around on his own, and that’s when SZ approached him and gave him some enticing story to make him swim upstream?
There is so much missing information, I hope LE has a whole lot more than we do, but as time goes by, I wonder just how much.
Speaking of TP’s account, isn’t it odd that neither Kaine Horman nor Desiree Young have said a word about it?
Okay, something is still not making sense to me. Help, with what I am missing would be appreciated.
Am I correct in believing that it is assumed that Terri and Kyron arrived at the school around 8:00am prior to school starting. They went to his classroom to drop backpack and take pictures. Terri briefly spoke with Ms. Porter and Ms. Zimmerman while in the classroom.
Then, Terri and Kyron left Kyron’s classroom to go see other exhibits, which at least one other teacher witnessed.
At approximately 8:45 the bus arrives at the school, parents start to filter out. Kryon tells Terri he wants to go to his classroom. All the other kids (without parents) from the buses start to filter in. Terri says goodbye to Kyron near his classroom and leaves.
Why is there any question who is responsible for Kyron at this point. Why would Terri think that she had to walk Kyron to his classroom door, when all the other kids were arriving and walking to their classrooms alone? How do we know that Kyron didn’t actually go to his classroom after leaving Terri and then rush to see another exhibit thinking he still had time? Why, just because Ms. Porter saw Terri with Kyron before the bus arrived, should she assume that Terri would stay with Kyron after the bus arrived and therefore not be culpable for his safety.
I think the school miss-managed the science fair. Scheduling the parent portion of the fair to end at the same time the buses arrived. This transition sounds like a mishmash of unknown adults leaving while unsupervised children were arriving.
What am I not getting about this part of the day?
——————–
T. Ruth says: October 16, 2012 at 4:06 pm
Someone asked when first bell rang, this looks like it was indeed @ 8:45:
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools-c/bell_bus-schedules_09-10.pdf
(Would explain why Terri knew she last saw Kyron at exactly 8:45, the bell rang.)
Yep, bus arrives at 8:35AM-
B
erose says: October 16, 2012 at 4:40 pm
@Mbs, With all due respect, what is the difference between a child coming to school on the bus, and walking down the hall to their classroom, and a child being left in the hall to walk to their classroom?
Thinking back, were Kaine Horman & Desiree Young ever even asked about TP’s account in any interview? Did any reporter ask LE in any of the pressers about it? I’ve probably just forgotten, but I don’t recall any reporter ever asking LE anything about the little guys account. I’m sure their answer would have been no comment anyway, but still, why not ask? Was this one of the questions that Kaine Horman said would not be allowed? Would be interesting to know, exactly what “ground rules” Kaine Horman laid out before the media. Pitkin, where are you when we need ya?
Blink said:
TH obligation to “supervise” Ky ended when she entered the building during school hours and he was officially in attendance, period. From then on, the duty of care belongs squarely with the school.
You know the one, not named in the civil suit.
B
Yes. As a teaching professional and a mom of PPS students, you are exactly right. When the first bell rings all those kids inside or on the premises become wards of the school (8:35 in most PPS grade schools). When the final bell rings (at 8:45) the hall monitors, admins, and/or personnel leading kids from the bus relinquish their responsibility and the teacher takes over. Many kindergarten-3rd grade teachers actually go outside to the busses at 8:35 to personally lead their troup in. Keefer should have been in the halls at all times during the pre-classroom time. Where was he when TMH left via the front door? (I say the office/front/south main door because Underhill, in that “did-u-see-the-white-truck” presser showed her “truck” in the parking lot near that entrance, and that door coincides with her statement that she last saw him walking to his room. It also coincides with the last statement by LE that Kyron was last seen in front of his classroom…except I don’t think that person who saw him there was TMH. Who else could it have been?
vw/marge
@vw
JMO, but I always thought when LE was doing all that parking lot chart business, they implying that Terri Horman had possibly originally parked in one place and then moved the truck elsewhere. Me, I think there was more than one white truck being witnessed by people, who all were sure it was the Horman truck.
The time when TH left is not really established. We only have her statement to her friend in the email. Some might suggest she left earlier, as in KH’s statement, “dropped him off.”
January says:
October 17, 2012 at 3:12 pm
@January. I don’t yhink parents filtered out at 8:45. The open house lasted til 10 & most probably arrived with the bells, not earlier. Only a pta Pres & Terri were likely to be there at 8 lol.
My guess is LE & Kaine were not all over Terri Friday evening because Kyron did arrange in the classroom, and left it again with a loosely chaperoned group. In retrospect kids ages 7 and below shoukd’ve gone 2 by 2 in this setting with their “escort” if it was to be in part a teaching experience, particularly with all those open doors. Kyron could easily have meet Tanner while proceeding to tge electric area with his group. Groups with kids this age, heck 4th & 5th graders too, are loosey goosey when touring. They subdivide & move apart. They hook up with random friends as they tour. The parent chaperone has to be a tyrant or tolerant while trying to have eyes everywhere. Tanner had no reason to say what other kids were in the hall, or knowledge if they were associated with a particular negligant chaperone. It took RS’ accusation to focus LE on Terri, not abberations in classroom checkin and out. But for RS, LE would’ve been after a SZ all these years, and imo the public had more information.
Imo let’s brace ourselves for more anonymous sources human interest stories most likely from kgw & OLive near term, leading up to Kaine’s divorce trial in Nov, or will public pressure from a full court press promote settlement? That’s why I wish whatever new details Blink is willing to publish see the light of day. Understand brick workload walls though.
Forum Poll:
1. If SZ is known by LE to exist, and if KH and DY know about SZ too, and if they both know that Kryon did not leave the school with TH but with someone else, why have KH and DY never mentioned SZ?
2. Did LE tell them to not ever mention SZ? If so….why?
@T.Ruth
(snipped) “Blink tells us Kyron was seen at some point with an unidentified male (SZ). The timing on that would also help us solve this part of the puzzle. Is this SZ, the person who told Kyron about the cool electric one? Was this person waiting for Kyron to appear at exactly the right moment, when everyone else in that school was headed to class? Did SZ plan it that way? Did SZ tell Kyron at some point, “Look you gotta’ come see this one before all the other kids, I’ll show you how it works, give you your own demonstration, let you run it, but I can’t do that if your teacher is around, so meet me just before class.” I don’t know that’s kind of a stretch because…..when would this conversation have taken place? That’s a lot of planning, however, Blink does say this was well planned. So maybe Kyron was running around on his own, and that’s when SZ approached him and gave him some enticing story to make him swim upstream?”
—————————————————————
If SZ called Kyron by name my gut reaction is Kyron left the school with someone he knew. I do not believe he would walk out the door with a stranger. jmo. I still focus on who TH was sexually involved with including MC etal.
regarding diminishing enrollment. imo when an Asst Supt wants to save a foundering school,
where there are some issues, he moves in a highly seasoned expert principal for a 4-6 year run.
After Kyron’s abduction, that did not occur. In fact over 3 principals now, imo the converse occurred.
That’s a message to parents who’ve been nothing but cooperative & supportive of PPS.
Also, it’s my impression there have been increasing school options. At a 62% grad rate, there should be.
correction: imo kyron did ARRIVE (not arrange).
darn word prediction.
@TRuth. imo the parking lot chart was a tool
to id a vehicle attachable to the SZ whom I believe
they were aware of by then (an unidentified male attendee
not associated with the school).
@vw. a taxpayer thinking cap leads me to the conclusion PPS is Benefited by each child in the Skyline cachement area who does not enroll or continue to attend Skyline (assuming a good % of same are not transferred to other publics, but enrolled in private, or may be in a charter being funded by PPS at a lessor cost contribution to PPS than if they were still in Skyline. You can subtract out of PPS’ budget expenditures that cost per pupil, while not initially affecting revenues allocated govermentally to PPS.
We read a lot about SZ and that LE knows who he is(or I think that’s what I’ve been understanding), so LE is probably waiting for SZ to slip up and lead them to Kyron.
Has anyone tried to work out a timeline for SZ? Or to follow what might have happened from the point of view of SZ (leaving TMH and KH totally out of it)? Look at all of this through the eyes of SZ?
1. If he actually took Kyron off the school property, then he is someone who (maybe) signed in and on that list of 490 and then left to be unaccounted for later in the day. Did LE track movements of everyone on the list for the entire day?
2. So where would SZ have taken Kyron? Near? Far? Hidden, hidey hole at the school? To his house to ‘hang out’ until SZ could come back and do whatever?
3. Was Kyron taken for SZ’s own sick purposes, or did SZ take him to someone else (trafficking)? For some reason, he seems to be fairly sure he wouldn’t be caught. Right?
–and what is the possibility that a bigger kid – bullying type, maybe – did something? Would his parents give him up to LE? Would LE be waiting for a bigger bully-type kid to get to an older age before prosecuting or arrest?
4. If SZ WAS someone connected to the school, could he have ‘put’ Kyron somewhere, and then left during the day with Kyron at a time when classes were going on, or nobody was noticing things? Seems the halls can be fairly quiet when there are classes going on. Are the classroom doors closed during classes?
It’s assuming that SZ had about 6-8 hours to do his whatever – 8:45 until 3:30, which Kyron didn’t get off the bus.
Trying to think outside the box . . .
I’m sure that anybody connected with any of the faculty (relatives, boyfriends, work employees) has been investigated? Right?
Some of the Skyline parents who are writing here — wouldn’t or shouldn’t they be worried that SZ might come back to nab another little kidlet?? I think I’d be terrified of that happening.
Speaking as one of those “overprotective-type” mothers, I think I might be really tempted to PARK at that school, volunteering for every little thing, watching every person, trying my best to keep all of the little kidlets away from harmful SZ types. MOO. Of course,the next best thing is to really get to know all of the teachers really well and get to know all of the other parents really well.
The name “Keefer” keeps popping up but I haven’t paid much attention to those posts, prefer to think staff and LE are not suspect, just by the nature of their work.
(I purposely left TMH out of these speculations; even if she is involved, pointing to her and no one else seems to be muddying the waters, and there needs to be some really clear thinking here.) Anyway, just something to think about. Don’t know how much of this was covered earlier.
@vw says:October 17, 2012 at 7:13 pm
@T. Ruth says:October 17, 2012 at 3:10 pm
Blink tells us Kyron was seen at some point with an unidentified male (SZ). The timing on that would also help us solve this part of the puzzle. Is this SZ, the person who told Kyron about the cool electric one? Was this person waiting for Kyron to appear at exactly the right moment, when everyone else in that school was headed to class? Did SZ plan it that way? Did SZ tell Kyron at some point,…..
Ugh, so frustrated with this case. I know I think about Kyron daily, and the fact that this case is seemingly stalled – at least the criminal portion – I want to know what they are still waiting for? Evidence? Witnesses? A body?
I am not a fan of Terri, though I will say if they had something on her she would not be in Roseburg….. But taking the brunt of the media and public outrage over the case must, MUST be for a reason. Regardless of whether she played a direct role in his disappearance, something big is preventing her from talking. She hired a top lawyer and never spoke to the media. Why? A person not involved in anything illegal would not be acting this way – my opinion. I just cannot fathom where she is coming from and why her silence has been so profound.
Why? I would hope that if she was involved in petty crime, drugs, etc., LE would offer some type of deal to provide them information. JMO. What is so unforgivable that she would ‘allow’ this continuing opinion of her?
Nothing adds up…… And Kyron is still missing – an innocent is lost. He deserves justice.
Jmo, moo
P.S. James Pitkin and his change of occupation a year after Kyron’s disappearance makes me really wonder…… Is he working on this case in his new capacity as PI? He was a brilliant journalist, and his article about “gardening” DAYS before the MFH plot was publicly divulged was GENIUS.
He doesn’t seem to be the type of person to give up on a story….
JMO
8-year-old Tanner Pumala, a desk mate of Kyron says, “I went downstairs, and that was the last time I saw him and I never seen him after that,” Tanner told KOIN news. Tanner said, the class was regrouping and it was the substitute that noticed Kyron was missing.
“And she was like ‘oh no where’s Kyron there’s only five’ and Mrs. Porter was like it’s okay calm down, calm down he’s probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she said alright I’m going to leave and she left, ” says Tanner Pumala
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:X2OAONmMU1QJ:www.examiner.com/article/search-for-missing-kyron-horman-is-now-a-criminal-case+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Okay, reviewing this again, this sounds to me, because Tanner says that he, himself was going downstairs, that this was before they went on their tours. There is no upstairs from Tanner & Kyron’s room. So Tanner IMO is saying he last saw Kyron upstairs somewhere, never did see him “downstairs” in the basement or older kids’ projects they were touring. Tells me the conversation he is recollecting between sub and Porter was BEFORE they went on the tour, because he never did see Kyron again….downstairs. JMO
@TRuth, First off, I love reading your posts. I often find myself thinking, “Why didn’t I think of that?” The last one, I have to wonder if the sequence wasn’t after the tour, as we originally thought, due to the sub saying she was going to leave. If Kyron was in her group, getting ready for the tour, then she would be obligated to wait. No? Yes?
@NelMel says:
October 17, 2012 at 9:24 pm
Forum Poll:
“1. If SZ is known by LE to exist, and if KH and DY know about SZ too, and if they both know that Kryon did not leave the school with TH but with someone else, why have KH and DY never mentioned SZ?
2. Did LE tell them to not ever mention SZ? If so….why?”
——————————————————————
I’d like to know the answer too…see below:
KGW interview with Kaine and Desiree November 2010
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8938.135;wap2
@ T.Ruth and MBS….you bring up some intriguing ideas. Could LE have backtracked on the 9am “sighting” because the chaperone was a youngster? Rather than because the FM receipt of 9:07 shot a few holes in their theories to date?
The “chaperone” prolly didn’t know Kyron, but had a list. Zimmerman, and Carol M. i think, both said that the kids were grouped in about groups of 4 or so. I’ve often thought that the chaperone could have barely noticed Kyron at the beginning of the tour, had gone through the tour focusing on her own kids (if a mom) and really only noticed Kyron gone when they “regrouped” at 10am.
Being an older student and maybe unfamiliar with all the kids in her gourp would intensify the stress of a busy, confusing morning. Yet that chaperone could have, even more than Porter or TMH, held the key.
Imagine the guilt. But if LE suggested to her that TMH could have been moving the truck to another location and come back to get Kyron that guilt would be a bit lightened, i’d think.
Without a word, yet, from the staff and parents, etc. at Skyline we really don’t know just how much guilt they feel, if any. That’s of course assuming any of them were really in any kind of position to change the outcome of this sad case.
But who is being deposed by Houze et. all? One would think that chaperone would be right up there with Rudy.
@Lyla. Once Blink said she felt he met SZ in the cool electric one area. Sorry no url, that’d be hours of hunting to find. That tells me though he both was espyed and he disappeared sooner rather than later, closer to the beginning of class tours setting out. What Kyron would do is why we need the BAU profile–of Kyron. His own mother thought he could & did follow an unknown person’s directions. Desiree was aware Kyron was seen with an unknown male.
As a regular school volunteer with these ages, I’d say most 7 year old boys would’ve done what i directed though a stranger. I looked like I belonged & was confident. on a morning like Sci Fair adults & objects were coming and going. Or maybe he offered a “snack” to be carried in for the class.
Various stranger adults were legitimated chaperones that day.
@TRuth. Could’ve been Tanner’s own group was headed downstairs. I don’t think a boy this age would say “I was with my group and…” He’d be self-focused. Perhaps Blink interviewed Fuhrer herself a couple years ago with this fleshing-out question?
@RedRose. I thought Blink has repeatedly said LE does NOT know SZ’s identity.
In fact lately she’s merely said a SZ has to be excluded, which differs from saying an SZ dun it.
I have never seen any blogger here or elsewhere suspect Mr Keefer. Question his
implementing PPS & Skyline procedures at Skyline, yes.
Just a note on Keefer- I cannot speak to his procedures per se, but I can say that feedback in my research indicated a high level of satisfaction from parents as a principal prior to this incident.
B
@T.Ruth
8-year-old Tanner Pumala, a desk mate of Kyron says, “I went downstairs, and that was the last time I saw him and I never seen him after that,” Tanner told KOIN news. Tanner said, the class was regrouping and it was the substitute that noticed Kyron was missing.
“And she was like ‘oh no where’s Kyron there’s only five’ and Mrs. Porter was like it’s okay calm down, calm down he’s probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she said alright I’m going to leave and she left, ” says Tanner Pumala
T.Ruth
Okay, reviewing this again, this sounds to me, because Tanner says that he, himself was going downstairs, that this was before they went on their tours. There is no upstairs from Tanner & Kyron’s room. So Tanner IMO is saying he last saw Kyron upstairs somewhere, never did see him “downstairs” in the basement or older kids’ projects they were touring. Tells me the conversation he is recollecting between sub and Porter was BEFORE they went on the tour, because he never did see Kyron again….downstairs. JMO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
T.Ruth,
If the exchange with the sub/chaperone & Ms Porter was prior to the group touring, then the sub/chaperone would have looked for and found
Kyron and then gone on tour. Evidently, Kyron was in her group.
Rather, Tanner states “… and she said alright I’m going to leave and she left, ” says Tanner Pumala.
“She left” – not she + her group left.
IMO, that indicates to me the conversation happened on return to class after tour.
If the chaperone said “there’s only 5″ wrt Kyron missing, that means the chaperone of any age began with 6.
which imo is negligent in a classroom of 6-7 yos on its face.’
Venetia says:
October 18, 2012 at 8:48 am
@T.Ruth
8-year-old Tanner Pumala, a desk mate of Kyron says, “I went downstairs, and that was the last time I saw him and I never seen him after that,” Tanner told KOIN news. Tanner said, the class was regrouping and it was the substitute that noticed Kyron was missing.
“And she was like ‘oh no where’s Kyron there’s only five’ and Mrs. Porter was like it’s okay calm down, calm down he’s probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she said alright I’m going to leave and she left, ” says Tanner Pumala
T.Ruth
Okay, reviewing this again, this sounds to me, because Tanner says that he, himself was going downstairs, that this was before they went on their tours. There is no upstairs from Tanner & Kyron’s room. So Tanner IMO is saying he last saw Kyron upstairs somewhere, never did see him “downstairs” in the basement or older kids’ projects they were touring. Tells me the conversation he is recollecting between sub and Porter was BEFORE they went on the tour, because he never did see Kyron again….downstairs. JMO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
T.Ruth,
If the exchange with the sub/chaperone & Ms Porter was prior to the group touring, then the sub/chaperone would have looked for and found
Kyron and then gone on tour. Evidently, Kyron was in her group.
Rather, Tanner states “… and she said alright I’m going to leave and she left, ” says Tanner Pumala.
“She left” – not she + her group left.
IMO, that indicates to me the conversation happened on return to class after tour.
***Who is the substitute? A teacher or aide? Has this person been identified? Why does Ms. Porter blow her off about him being in the bathroom or drinking fountain without checking? She is not mentioning a dr’s. appt. at this time, which I believe blows that whole excuse out of the water. She’s negligent in keeping track of her assigned students. If the substitute noticed that one was missing, when did the tour guide notice? Did other kids in this group of 6 notice when Kyron left the group?” There’s a big piece of this story missing and I believe these are the eyewitnesses as to who Kyron was seen with, the SZ as denoted here.***
The Gofund site for donations to DY’s legal fee’s has this note posted:
There is a reason for this, and I wish I could give you an explanation as to why. Just know that as soon as I’m given the green light I will start them up again.”
“I’m sure you have noticed that I stopped the memories.
I wonder why, does it have something to do with the civil suit? LE?
http://www.gofundme.com/kyronhorman
http://abcnews.go.com/US/whitney-heichel-police-search-wooded-area-missing-oregon/story?id=17505121
Please keep any and all eyes open for Whitney. I don’t “know” her, but interacted with her at one of my local Starbucks. I really hope this ends well
Tanner could very well have meant she left with her group. Like Rose said, there’s no reason for him at his age to be so specific. It’s a rather vague statement.
All I know is if it was before they grouped, Porter is the one who told the teacher it’s okay go ahead, (probably thinking Kyron would catch up after his potty break). If it was after they came back, it was still Porter who said it’s okay go ahead, calm down he’s probably made a pit stop. Either way, if Tanner’s recollection is correct, IMO it is Kristina Porter who dismissed the possibility of Kyron being unaccounted for. According to her alleged testimony, that is because of an alleged doctor appointment, which we now know, did not exist for that day. This makes Tanner’s statement about he’s probably being in the bathroom or getting a drink of water totally relevant to this case, as far as school liability goes, because it contradicts the fact that Kristina Porter *thought* Kyron had a doctor appointment, at least at the point in time that the conversation took place between her and the chaperone.
Did Kristina Porter AND a chaperone say that conversation never took place and that TP made it all up? We don’t know. For me, it’s important to remember that TP, when quoting Ms. Porter, said she used the words “calm down”. Now kids, just like us know when someone is excited or frantic about something. Tanner is telling us the chaperone was excited, frantic or at the very least nervous, because Ms. Porter said “it’s okay, calm down”. I think that’s important, why would a kid his age make something like this up? I don’t think he would, JMO. Now it could be that Porter did say that to the chaperone, but then maybe just moments later she remembered that Terri had given her paperwork the day before about a doctor appointment. She then could have said, *Oh, that’s right, he had a doctor appointment today*. And that was that. Tanner just maybe didn’t mention that part of the conversation and that could also be where Kurtis Holm heard that Kyron had a doctor appointment and would be gone all day. The thing is, we all now know he didn’t have a doctor appointment scheduled for that day, so that would be strike 3 for Porter, no bathroom, no drink of water, no doctor appointment, unless, the big UNLESS, Terri Horman somehow specifically told Porter the appointment was indeed for June 4. IDK
I’m just trying to figure out the timing, but I don’t think we can. We’re missing too many pieces.
Was Tanner in his group when he saw Kyron?
Was Kyron in a group when he saw Kyron?
Did Tanner actually last see Kyron upstairs or downstairs, or on the stairs, and, if so which way was he traversing?
Tyler Kessinger says he saw Kyron in the gym looking at exhibits, happy, and with other kids. He said he did not see TMH. When was this? Before the group tour, during or after? When he said other kids, could one of them have been a student chaperone? Could that chaperone have been preoccupied in conversation and not paying attention to the kids as well as she should have been?
Where did a witness see Kyron with SZ and when?
Where the heck was the cool electric project? Did Tanner know which project Kyron was referring to?
Without knowing the timing of any this, I don’t see how we can come up with anything definitive regarding Kyron’s activities. Round and round and round we go.
I just do not see how, in any way shape or form, this school should not be held accountable for Kyron’s disappearance, but both Kaine & Desiree do, what in the heck are we missing? Could it be there was no paperwork given to Porter by Terri on the morning of June 3rd? Did Kaine Horman retrieve the paperwork on the afternoon of June 3rd because for some reason he didn’t want Kyron to go to the doctor? Could this have caused Porter’s confusion? Did Terri stand and face Porter that morning and physically tell her she was taking Kyron out of school that day? We don’t know that either, but for some reason, I believe Tanner’s account about what Ms. Porter said, and frankly it doesn’t make sense. If Porter knew about the doctor appointment as she claims, why on earth would her head be so far up her xxxxx that she told the chaperone to calm down he’s probably in the bathroom or getting water? IDK makes no sense to me.
Here’s to depositions. T. Ruth sips the last of her coffee.
[...] did not show by 8:40am, he hitched a ride from his Dad to avoid missing the 8:50am bell. The drive route would not pass an “enroute” Jessica if she were to take the normal path to [...]
Re those FM parking lot parkings. I think toddler-carrying car seats are kind of heavy. I don’t think there are very many cart returns at the far end of parking lots at the big box stores.
Always have tried to figure out WHY TMH would park at the far end of a parking lot instead of much closer to the store. Seems like a lot to lug around a car seat w/baby all the way across the parking lot.
I can understand about not wanting to have a car or Ford truck door dinged, but the other kind-of-weird thing is that nobody would notice if you had OTHER things or “people/children” stashed in the back. If you were parked at the far end of the lot.
Maybe it was an execise thingy….
Not sure that it was odd for TMH to park away from other vehicles. The KH we know was probably very demanding about the use and care of his vehicle and door dent prevention. Did he park away from other vehicles as well?
The gym situation could have been a plant by LE using KH, to get her away from the house and talking. I believe LE was already focusing on her at that point. Whether or not KH was involved in this, he would have done so at the direction of LE.
@t.ruth
Was Tanner in his group when he saw Kyron?
Was Kyron in a group when he saw Kyron?
Did Tanner actually last see Kyron upstairs or downstairs, or on the stairs, and, if so which way was he traversing?
Tyler Kessinger says he saw Kyron in the gym looking at exhibits, happy, and with other kids. He said he did not see TMH. When was this? Before the group tour, during or after?
….Remember that TMH said they had learned when they got to the school that Kyron was seen with a “chaperone”… but male, and that there were no males on the list?
Could it be that yes, Kyon left with a female chaperone that was not familiar with him, went to the gym as a group at some point, and was lured away to meet someone who had contacted him about the cool, electric one in the basement?
If all those rooms on the main floor were K-5 rooms imagine how many “groups” were wandering the school on the upper floor alone. Going from room to room and then, maybe downstairs? Or were the upper grades exhibits in the gym? Except for the cool, electric one? If that was the case, then the upper grades would be coming up to the gym, too.
The email said TMH thought there were 300 or so in the hall? When she left? Could have been even more when the touring was full force, between 9 and 9:45 or so, if more parents dropped by and all the kids and staff were out and about. And my guess is that most teachers stayed in their rooms, getting ready for the return of the students….even though, technically, they were responsible for the students during the touring.
marge.vw
@TRuth. excellent thoughts. And TY for resurrecting Tyler saw Kyron in the gym with friends.
We know more than the first time we read this. At that tome I yhought Ryler was dutifully standing
by his exhibit to explain it since the IB middlers’ were in the gym. Hah, how little I was remembering
middle school sci fairs in my public schools (4 different). Even if that were the expectation, and it wasn’t,
they’re off coming together & breaking apart like molecules, 2-5 at a time.
We now know responsible middlers were chaperone escorts for class small groups. Tyler was seen that way.
I bet he was walking around with “a job to do.” If not, he himself would be in a small group
assigned in his own classroom imo. The question is, why would he know or notice Kyron, a much younger boy with no middler brothers? Was Tyler one of Ms Porter’s classroom’s small group escorts? If she had 24 kids, she’d need 4 of them at 6 each. I don’t see her doing it, personally.!