Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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It has been over 2 years since Kyron disappeared and the possibility of this being a crime of opportunity has not been ruled out.
Have their been any other cases of known male child abduction that could be related to the same perp and this case?
I cannot imagine Kaine accompanying Terri to a doctor’s appointment, much less sitting in on a joint debriefing.
HIPPA laws (or whatever the acronym is) mean doctors can’t and don’t discuss a spouse or adult child without a signed release form.. If Kaine left Kyron’s medicals up to Terri, he darn sure wasn’t there when she was treated, imo. I suppose if he tries to attest to this in Court, her attorney will call her doctor and ask if he said this.
@Blink, you have to look at the work experience of the then FBI Field Office Dir. Nothing like this case is on his public CV. He was a drug case man. Habituated to snitches probably who’d be told “We know x, so just fill it in.”
The Ridgeway case is similar for all the Fed agencies, not a pattern tgere of tiny town PDs though. I think the Fed happens with blatant child abductions. The question in Kyron is how did it change so fast from possible stranger abduction to Terri’s just a lyin murderous actin out bitch, probably the first weekend? Narrowed the investigation at prelim interview stages of persons present at Sci Fair, sadly.
I can’t imagine Staton revealing to voters he led a 2 yr multimillion firehose, or the elected Commissioners allowing him to do so. Because they’d fall on the same sword.
@ vw re “And it was then and only then that DY and KH started to retract and re-vision the “cooperative” nature of TMH. ” What happened to DY bring on Terri’s case from the get go? “cussin” she said. “Get me out of here” to Tony.
His saying he found her strange the first night in her responses to what he thought was his police officer teaching mode. imo Desiree and Tony voiced suspicion to mcso from their arrival on the scene. That’s the only way they could believe in a live findable Kyron.
Blink, can I ask for a small clarification please? The FBI telling “witnesses” Terri Horman was a “suspect”. Witnesses to what? The MFH? or Ky’s disappearance? I didn’t know there were any witnesses to any crime.
So LE, was/is of the belief that Terri Horman put a contract out on Kyron?
Any person interviewed for any reason wrt to any aspect of this investigation is a potential witness.
B
Rose says:
October 20, 2012 at 8:31 am
The OLive adticle today attributes the locating of Heichel and prior to that many objects pointing to the perp to publically organized, church based search groups. Gresham LE accepted public search contributions.
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I may not always agree with things that happen in our city, but there were mixed emotions when the press conference happened. While there was sadness at Whitney being gone, it also highlighted and showed just how organized our police department is. How they were able and willing to accept help when they knew that they were potentially over their heads. In reality, the community did its part to find Whitney and solve this case in a matter of days. Kids found the cell phone, searchers found her license plate on Larch Mt . . . it’s just too bad that the same things didn’t happen with Kyron.
Tony is quoted something like if not Terri who
I have always thought that was a strange thing for
A policeman to say
When there are bad guys and girls every where
Then he just quits saying anything
All seems odd IMO
Terri did act odd but with a house full of upset people
and a baby to care for
maybe lack of sleep
Would someone who did something to Kyron
act like she did in front of cameras and press
Unfortunately that is a training thing Malty. It is backward in terms of identifying suspects, but as this is his step son I will give him a pass.
B
T. Ruth says:
October 22, 2012 at 12:15 pm
Any person interviewed for any reason wrt to any aspect of this investigation is a potential witness.
B
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Ah okay, I get it, I was thinking in order to be considered a witness one had to witness something to do with the crime. I forgot about things like ‘character’ witnesses. Thanks.
@hervness says:
October 22, 2012 at 12:20 pm
Rose says:
October 20, 2012 at 8:31 am
The OLive adticle today attributes the locating of Heichel and prior to that many objects pointing to the perp to publically organized, church based search groups. Gresham LE accepted public search contributions.
**********************************************************************
I may not always agree with things that happen in our city, but there were mixed emotions when the press conference happened. While there was sadness at Whitney being gone, it also highlighted and showed just how organized our police department is. How they were able and willing to accept help when they knew that they were potentially over their heads. In reality, the community did its part to find Whitney and solve this case in a matter of days. Kids found the cell phone, searchers found her license plate on Larch Mt . . . it’s just too bad that the same things didn’t happen with Kyron.
———————————————————
Right on…I totally agree.
OT: Autumn Pasquale.
Why not an Amber Alert?
No evidence of abduction or foul play.
B
@TRuth. Broader than character witnesses. ie, timeline corraborators (Starbucks,Meyers, etc), school procedures & attendees at Sci Fair & timing, cars seen in the lot, statements by gym rats about Terri’s state of mind as she spoke about Kaine– the list of witnesses to timeline, Sci Fair, & motive seems broad to me.
@Malty says:
October 22, 2012 at 12:52 pm
Can someone point to the quote of Tony Young saying “If not Terri, then who?” (or similar) I have tried to look it up every which way and cannot find it. I’m trying to see exactly “when” he said this. TIA
I was amazed while reading every post in the Megan Sharpton case, by how many locals sent Blink private messages, trying to help. Of course, Kyron’s case is completely different in every aspect; however a little boy remains missing. After two years, you would think that the community’s’ faith in LE and/or this case being solved would have started to waiver, prompting people who know more (or saw more) to say so. Why haven’t leaks started coming out? Anonymous private emails, whispers, rumbles. In the beginning when so many agencies were involved, so much money spent, the huge investigation, grand jury interviews, yes, I can understand the tight lips… but when it all went south? Not so much.
I know different ones of us keep asking this question and no release, but have the results of the hair found by the fisherman been released?
Or held in evidence?
Thinking out loud. On a chaotic day at an elementary school in anywhere USA, it would not be that difficult to gain entrance as part of a group or by access of unlocked entrance/exit door and then mix in the crowd and make your way to an out of the way corridor, restroom, staircase, etc., especially if you are somewhat familiar with the layout of the school. Now if you were familiar to the child, you could easily convince him that you need help getting something out of your car or truck for the science fair as he/she is extremely excited that day, and he went along willingly, no fight, not screaming, no alarm. Maybe someone sees you, but your not in your normal state of dress, hat, glasses, mustache, beard, etc., not recognizable or well known in this group. Poof, vanished, a 7 year old second grade boy. The nightmare begins, all of your family skeletons out in the open for everyone to see. A distraction, just what the abductor wants. Plenty of time for him to vanish as well.
Gosh T. Ruth, I’ve spent more time looking for Tony’s quote. I can’t find it either.. I did read (for review) a couple of interesting links along the way, however. The first one is a several-part interview conducted by Nightline which really pulls out the how’s and why’s the family believe’s Terri to be the culprit.. The second, a good cast of character link.
Unfolding information about why family decided it was Terri:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38420266/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/little-boy-lost/
Horman cast of characters:
http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12305-the_kyron_files.html
@Rose says:
October 22, 2012 at 2:01 pm
Of course, I think I’m just brain dead today. I was just thinking of a witness as someone who actually witnessed “the deed”, in this case, either the MFH transaction or Kyron’s disappearance. My bad. Everyone else, well they’re just fluff. Kidding. LOL, I don’t know what I was thinking, I know testimony is received by many witnesses as to the events of the day, etc., Blink’s comment just threw me for a minute. Sorry to be so lame.
@January says:
October 22, 2012 at 4:01 pm
Thanks for looking, I too thought I’d remembered it being from the Dateline program, but I couldn’t find it.
Morning of November 12, 2010, on Today show, as an prelude to the “missing” November 12, 2010 Dateline show.
TY: “If she’s not a suspect in this, then, who is?”
Start at 0:31
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/#40148378
@Rose, re: your comment about KH’s side of the family not speking out. This is the only thing I ever heard RNH say, about two weeks in. He classified it as a loss. Had he already given up on finding Kyron?
snip>
Kaine’s adoptive dad, R. Neil Horman, says Kyron’s disappearance has been a strain on the parents.
“The loss of a child like this is devastating,” he said.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_hormans_blended_family_f.html
Hi rose!.
@ vw re “And it was then and only then that DY and KH started to retract and re-vision the “cooperative” nature of TMH. ” What happened to DY bring on Terri’s case from the get go? “cussin” she said. “Get me out of here” to Tony.
His saying he found her strange the first night in her responses to what he thought was his police officer teaching mode. imo Desiree and Tony voiced suspicion to mcso from their arrival on the scene. That’s the only way they could believe in a live findable Kyron.
Just got a sec. but yes, DY’s “retrospect” suggests that she was suspicious and/or even antagonistic from the get go. But the many comments by her after the “hateful emails” and mfh suggestion suggest a “reconsidering” of the stepmom that she had hitherto cooperated with (prior to Kyron being abducted).
Somehow she had put aside Kaine’s “preference” for TMH and had worked with her for 5 years or so on behalf of her son. They had, even in her own words, an open email relationship and talked a lot. Notice that Desiree didn’t say anything negative about TMH during that first interview, on June 25th. It wasn’t till the end fo the month…and the mfh that she could not say one thing postitive. Even the length of the emails brought suspician.
We all rewrite history depending on our emotions regarding a hitherto close person in our lives, I think. When someone disappoints us or hurts us deeply we start to “re-imagine” the scenes in our past to include that person being “deliberately” out for themselves. Even if they weren’t.
All the past hurts that DY had perhaps put aside over the years in regards to Kaine’s inhumane (IMO) treatment of her started to come back after LE “suggested” TMH hurt her son. However, placing the blame where it belonged is the key…being unable to fully focus on Kaine she instead turned every possible hurt and rejection to TMH.
Not healthy. But who am I to judge? Have experienced misplaced anger myself. When I lost a child I was about to adopt. Not many people can stay rational when great pain happens.
And it didn’t help that she had to/has to live up to the “perfect” mom that the media and bloggers make her out to be. There is no middle ground in this case …. if she is the “perfect” mom, TMH must be the classically “evil” stepmom.
Nuf psychology. Understand DY to some extent. Don’t understand how TY could encourage it.
vw/margie
my memory is it was said on a tv interview on one of those talk shows where he was sitting in a more relaxed mode. Were they on Oprah? He was talking back & forth with the hostess I think. Long ago. Memories dim. Goodness help those “witnesses” at their depos.
@Blink. Re: immunity. They must not have really believed TMH knew anything of importance regarding a 3rd party, otherwise it would not be a risk. Or, they must have been so sure, in the first two weeks, that she was the perp that they didn’t need to…as the MFH sting would go as planned? After the sting, that following Wednesday, wouldn’t it have been a moot subject as she had lawyered up?
But, regardless, the increasing pressure by the bios, and hence the public, couldn’t have happened if DY and KH had really believed that TMH could kill or have killed their son. Like Rose said…they needed to believe that TMH had “spirited” Kyron away. The alternative would be too hard to bear, and the public would not have been very patient knowing that MCSO was still doing their “search-n-rescue” and neither turning up
nor explaining anything.
But I just don’t get it. If they really believed in a malfeasant accomplice, why pick an organic gardiner with a litany of peaceful causes with no history of any wrong-doing, and a time-frame that conflicted with TMH’s?
@Rose. I forgot to mention. TMH and DY had had a working arrangement for 5 years. Long emails, coordinating visits. That’s a long time for DY to have built up a trusting relationship. It’s all these meddling men, IMO. TY, LE, Keefer, Kantor, Kaine…… If they could only get those guys out of the picture, they and their peeps and fams could still find Kyron, IMO. LOL.
@erose. I am aware both Neil Horman and Kristi Horman spoke out on the loss of Kyron. In context, I intended my reference say Tarvers, Ecker’s parents, & Moultons spoke out on Terri–her prior marriages, character (adultery and more) or guilt, ((prospect for arrest) rather than confining their speech to personal feelings of loss about Kyron. I did not see any Horman family member or his former spouse’s family members such as her parents, sister or brother, comment in a similar fashion on Kaine’s prior marriage or behavior in it, nor did the Hormans comment on any aspects of his marriage to Terri. I don’t think that was for any lack of press giving tge same effort as they did with Tarver/Ecker etc, but was due to Kaine saying do not talk, just like the memo. But for expressing missing Kyron, Horman & Davidson family lips have been zipped as to Kaine’s character, adulteries, etc, , but for DY saying well after the fact she disagreed with some choices.
quizzical says:
October 22, 2012 at 5:28 pm
Morning of November 12, 2010, on Today show, as an prelude to the “missing” November 12, 2010 Dateline show.
TY: “If she’s not a suspect in this, then, who is?”
Start at 0:31
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/#40148378
———————
@quizzical – Thanks for finding that quote.
Maybe he simply meant what he said- not so much “who else could it be but Terri” as “if we eliminate Terri as a suspect, who’s next in line” – a rhetorical question. Understandable either way.
I now see your point, and agree with your conclusion. TY for explaining it to me.
Rose says:
October 22, 2012 at 8:18 pm
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
(You need not click on the link, just scroll to the article on this page.)
http://blinkoncrime.com/2012/09/11/kyron-horman-disappearance-series-part-i-desiree-young-v-terri-horman-civil-as-an-oxymoron/comment-page-29/#comment-2034493
This LE also asked for civilian search help (Pasquale).
http://mobile.nj.com/advnj/pm_31094/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=qRcv3Qqq
makes me wonder if trash bins were checked in Skyline’s area the first weekend
OT http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=8183567
any thots why family’s been ruled out? We don’t know sex/age of Dad’s live-in girlfriend’s children. Or anything about her. It’s a family member’s word she left on bike. But the body was found near the home. Not reported til 930 pm plus the mom of her friend’s statement she was often there suggests weak homelife.
MBS @ 10/22 10:09pm
At :52 KH is visibly angry and emphatically states, “She (TMH) has not proven her innocence.”
Neither have you, Kaine. No one has. This speaks volumes to the manner that KH is accusing his wife. Most of everything we have heard from him is circumstantial rhetoric, unconfirmed heresay that has been denied by TMH.
This man’s first wife was granted an RO against him when she filed for divorce, citing fear he would remove the children from the home.
It’s diffucult to find credibility in anyone involved in this, from parents to witnesses to even LE.
Jden- I have seen that first RO quoted, but dang if you can find it in a court file-
I agree with you completely, and to be honest, I think we should all take a seat when he is deposed, lest we fall over. I think he was right when he said the gloves were off.
B
MBS. Thanks for the link. I read the hour-long show, too, where she interviews KH and DY and then comes to Medford to visit Ky’s unmade bed.
One thing that struck me. None of the journalists, local or nationwide, ever questioned the gym owner (and Kaine’s friend) who called the police when TMH came to check on where Kiara was and if she was at the daycare there? He had treated her visit as illegal. DY said it spoke to her “character” derisively. Kaine put it in a court briefing as further “fact” of her lying/illicit behavior.
But she had NOT been served the R/O when she went to the gym. IIRC. She was, in a sense, treated like a criminal when she was only seeking her daughter’s whereabouts. Could it be, too, that she didn’t even imagine a r/o at that time (Monday morning)?
Also, her friend, in that interview, stated that TMH felt during the POLY that she was being treated like a criminal. No wonder she or her parents got her an attorney post-haste after that. What would have happened next if she hadn’t?
Do you, or anyone, have a link to the last hour-long Dateline show KS did? The one in which KS came to Portland to test the “drive-time” from Bvtn to Sauvie?
It doesn’t seem be active on Dateline anymore. Or ever? I remember only seeing the last half of it due to a Blazer game, I think.
thanx.
@quizzical says:
October 22, 2012 at 5:28 pm
Thank you, thank you! I knew one of you would come through! The word suspect, hah, no wonder I couldn’t find it.
Tony’s remark to me is even more interesting, in that he used the word “suspect”. He could have said, “if Terri didn’t do it, then who?”, but he didn’t. Sounds to me like he was answering a comment probably form Kate Snow about Terri not even being named a suspect. I think that’s all he’s saying, is that Terri must be a suspect.
What’s interesting to me, and the reason I wanted the date of when he said that in November 2010, is we now know directly from MCSO, that at that time, they were still looking at, at least, 60 other persons of interest. Sounds to me, like Tony Young had no idea they were. Sounds to me like Tony Young, thought that Terri was their only suspect. Again, I wish we knew why Tony Young is so adamant that Terri is guilty. Not just Desiree, but Tony as well were pointing fingers at Terri Horman since day 1, why?
Here’s his comment from the first Dateline show, Little Boy Lost:
Kaine, Kyron’s father, says he didn’t see a change in Kyron, but Desiree wonders if she should have acted on her gut feeling, because she and Tony now believe not only that Terri was involved in Kyron’s disappearance, but that it had been in the works for a while.
TONY YOUNG: I absolutely believe that Terri Horman is responsible for Kyron’s disappearance.
DESIREE YOUNG: And I do, too.
KATE SNOW: With help? Did someone help her?
DESIREE YOUNG: We don’t have any evidence that indicates that, but we personally think that’s the case.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2012/09/11/kyron-horman-disappearance-series-part-i-desiree-young-v-terri-horman-civil-as-an-oxymoron/comment-page-29/#comment-2035293
This show aired July 26, 2010, a Monday. So, I wonder when was it filmed?
How long does it take to put a show like this together and edit, etc.
Anyway, JMO, but his words and actions in this case, don’t seem to fit his professional training. As we’ve seen cops are usually quite tight-lipped. When he stood by Desiree’s side in Roseburg and she literally asked people to stalk Terri Horman, I was flabbergasted. I thought to myself, what is this guy doing? He knows better than most of us how much this kind of action can screw up a conviction.
AMOO, and it’s just interesting. Perhaps, because Kyron is his stepson, all his training goes out the window? I gotta wonder what the DA thought about his comments. IDK
AND HERE WE GO . . .
new media, October 23 2012:
“Terri Horman’s friend DeDe Spicher declines to answer any questions about Terri Horman in deposition”
)snip)
“Spicher refused to answer any questions posed by Young’s lawyers on Oct. 5 that involved Terri Horman, Kyron’s stepmom, or Kyron — each time asserting her Fifth Amendment constitutional right not to incriminate herself.
Spicher also refused to answer questions about where she was on June 4, 2010. ”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/10/terri_hormans_friend_dede_spic.html
I am surprised about a few statements in that piece by Maxine. It is very slanted, imo.
Ie: She abruptly left the property? Did she? How does she know that, what source?
Like I said, this is going to continue and as long as this attaches to the criminal investigation no judge is going to compel her.
B
@Rose
I think you are right Kaine probably told people to be quiet
He has not said much his self that really explains
Any of what was going on
Or hedges on issues
I love this new phone but it is hard to post links
And search
Tony is kind of in a spot where he can’t say much
Just from memory it seems like Kaine asked Terri to be quiet at first
And to keep the forcus on Kyron
Maybe some one can find that
@Rose says:
October 22, 2012 at 8:18 pm
As far as Desiree’s side of the family speaking up about Kaine Horman’s behavior, there were the comments from “Kyron’s Poppa”, allegedly Desiree’s father (appeared legit to me, at the time, I checked out the FB account):
Kyron’s Poppa
Desi spoke with Jane of HLN (CNN) and read her letter to Terri yesterday. I think it caught Jane off guard as she sounded close to tears. Basically Desi said she’s probably the only person Terri knows who will understand what was going on, having been married to Kaine. I think Kaine has made his bed and will have to live with his narcissistic controlling crap – his son, my grandson, is missing!
Share · December 20, 2011 at 9:26pm ·
and this:
Kyron’s Poppa April 11, 2012 at 5:01PM
“I agree that this practice is shameful, but tryig to convince the public that a non-profit has been started without full IRS non-profit status is not only misleading but illegal. I’ve yet to establish credence for the foundation named for my missing grandson, Kyron. I am in the dark for what should be and is being done on behalf of this little boy. I understand, too that the founder was awarded for his efforts to help other families who have lost a child to unknown or known circumstances. I wonder if this may be a situation of mistaken identity? If the foundation is ‘real’, great – I hope many benefit. I suggested back in month 3 of this tragedy that an effort be made to get as many people to donate a dollar so we could hire a private eye, attorneys and others to help establish Kyron’s whereabouts when it was apparent efforts were becoming fruitless and we were facing a cold-case status.
IMHO, this is not the way Kyron’s situation should be handled! I pray for Ky’s safe return to be very soon!”
brought over from Scared Monkeys http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?action=printpage;topic=9941.0
Looks like whomever he is, he got his wish about people donating to hire an attorney.
Terri Horman’s friend DeDe Spicher declines to answer any questions about Terri Horman in deposition
By Maxine Bernstein, The Oregonian The Oregonian
on October 23, 2012 at 10:03 AM, updated October 23, 2012 at 10:22 AM
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/10/terri_hormans_friend_dede_spic.html#incart_river_default
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/DeDe.PDF
DeDe “revisited”
“Terri Horman’s friend DeDe Spicher declines to answer any questions about Terri Horman in deposition: Desiree Young’s lawyer has filed a motion asking a judge to compel DeDe Spicher, a friend of Terri Moulton Horman, to answer his questions after she refused to answer 142 questions during a deposition he took earlier this month stemming from Young’s civil lawsuit against Horman…”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/10/terri_hormans_friend_dede_spic.html#incart_river_default
VW.. I posted a dateline link up thread at 4:01pm… I didn’t read the entire transcript, as I was looking for something specific, not sure if it’s the one you’re referencing.
“Plaintiff believes that Ms. Spicher has inappropriately sought the protection of the privilege against self-incrimination,” Rosenthal wrote. “The privilege is personal; it cannot be used to protect another person.. Otherwise, the privilege could be used as a shield to protect a witness’ friends, and to deny civil litigant probative evidence.”
Blink, I understand what you are saying about Maxine Bernstein’s slant, however what the heck is DeDe doing? Is she asserting her Fifth Amendment to protect Terri as Rosenthal suggests? Why would she? If she is completely innocent of any wrongdoing, and if she truly believes that Terri is completely innocent, why not tell what she knows? I can see Bernstein’s slant; maybe it is out of frustration with DeDe. In essence by not cooperating, she could be hurting efforts to find Kyron. Why would any compassionate person do that? What am I missing?
—-
martyn says: October 23, 2012 at 1:25 pm
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/DeDe.PDF
January- regardless of her personal feelings, Maxine has an obligation to source the information she states as fact, or state that it comes from a source she is not willing to name- we all have that burden.
Dede was villified by LE Young and KH, so badly that LE had to release a statement backing off her.
I have said this before, nobody that has testified before the grand jury is going to testify in the civil matter under similar circumstances. She is not protecting TH she is protecting herself.
Maxine suggests she was off property at the same time this child goes missing, if that is not tantamount to a gaping hole for LE to jump through, I do not know what is.
I wonder if the woman she was doing an internship for has been deposed?
I believe she may have to answer a few of his certifications, but anything that is subject to the criminal investigation that she offered or did not offer, is going to be off limits.
If they want that info, they are going to have to get MCSO to cough it up, which they will never do.
B
Can anyone talk about a check that Kaine was supposed to be holding regarding this case? (Maybe one of the “temp companions” who knew about it?) It was posted about a couple of times here yesterday. Let me know if you need links. Just wondering if it has anything to do with Kyron or if it is all hearsay?
I know it’s written here somewhere, but how old was Kyron (and TMH?) when Kaine took him away from Desiree?
RedRose- Kaine never “took” Ky, Desiree agreed to full custody for Kaine, with the caveat in the agreement that she would NOT be forced to pay support. He was 2.
B
Blink, I agree that by Bernstein reporting “DeDe abruptly left” without giving or mentioning her source is irresponsible. In addition, I agree that reporters should do just that. Report. They should report the facts without a slant. I too remember everything LE put DeDe through and their subsequent “backing off” statement. What I don’t understand is what could they pin on her if she is innocent? What exactly is her fear about? I read that DeDe didn’t testify before the GJ; she was called, but never questioned. Secondly, if DeDe didn’t leave the property, as I believe she said, why not answer truthfully; “I didn’t leave the property; I left my cell phone in my car, so I didn’t hear it ring when employer called me for lunch.” I suppose it boils down to DeDe NOT believing that “the truth will set you free”, but rather “the truth will incriminate you, even if you’re innocent.” Bad news for Kyron. If Terri (and DeDe’s) involvement could be taken off the table, maybe we’d start getting somewhere.
January says:
October 23, 2012 at 2:54 pm
“Plaintiff believes that Ms. Spicher has inappropriately sought the protection of the privilege against self-incrimination,” Rosenthal wrote. “The privilege is personal; it cannot be used to protect another person.. Otherwise, the privilege could be used as a shield to protect a witness’ friends, and to deny civil litigant probative evidence.”
Blink, I understand what you are saying about Maxine Bernstein’s slant, however what the heck is DeDe doing? Is she asserting her Fifth Amendment to protect Terri as Rosenthal suggests? Why would she? If she is completely innocent of any wrongdoing, and if she truly believes that Terri is completely innocent, why not tell what she knows? I can see Bernstein’s slant; maybe it is out of frustration with DeDe. In essence by not cooperating, she could be hurting efforts to find Kyron. Why would any compassionate person do that? What am I missing?
—-
I think at least part of the reason DeDe takes the 5th is because she and her lawyer know that anything said in her deposition would immediately be turned over to the media (Maxine Bernstien) to become fodder for the ongoing rumor mill which at times has seemed to be a vehicle used to punish Dede for being TH’s friend by destroying her reputation. I noticed that Maxine made sure everyone knew Dede’s place of employment even though it really had nothing to do with her article. I believe these kind of tactics are the reason TH did not want James deposed.
I agree with you on posting her employer, and I would NOT be surprised to learn that gets retracted.
It is one thing to include the PDF, but after I just read it, I would also say that Maxine misrepresented another fact.
B
FYI
http://www.kgw.com/news/Terri-Horman-friend-pleads-5th-in-civil-depostion-175459061.html
@VW, FWIW, We have been trying to find that Dateline episode for-ever. So far, it appears it has been removed.
What does DDS know that would be considered self-incriminating?
DeeDee pleads 5th, no surprise there!!! Time is running for the “twins.”
Is it? Because where I sit, this investigation has nothing but time, going on 2 1/2 years.
She will not be the only person to do that, not even close. That is one of the primary reasons for not naming the school in the suit. That amount of people that will ONLY invoke the 5th will make Rosenthal need his own mail room for all the motions to compel.
DY, KH and LE pointed a direct finger at this woman, I have no idea why any person would be surprised at her position.
B