Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
Related Posts
Related Posts:
2,458 Comments
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI
Having read the deposition two things strike me:
One is Rosenthal’s questions regarding steroids which leads me to wonder about what other posters here have previously brought up after some members of Portland area LE were caught using steroids. It was thought that perhaps Terri was supplying steroids to them and/or a member of LE was in some way involved.
I am baffled that LE never asked to see Dede’s phone records or any records from any of her emails or other electronics during the investigation. That is so exasperating. Even if a person doesn’t think Terri had anything to do with this Dede was unaccounted for a portion of that morning then moved in with the stepmother of the missing child.
No wonder Desiree has taken this to civil court, LE has simply failed her.
Amy’s sister- it should not baffle you that LE did not ASK Dede for her records, they likely got them via subpoena, she was simply answering the question asked of her.
We have no confirmation she was unaccounted for.
B
Rosenthal asks Dede whether Terri ever stated in emails to her that she wanted to hurt Kyron. I wonder if her hateful emails about Kyron indicated she wanted to hurt him?
Desiree, who saw the emails, stated they showed Terri was capable of hurting Kyron in the worst possible way.
I’m very frustrated with LE’s handling of this case.
DY has never stated who the recipient of those emails was. Where are you seeing where he asked her specifically in an email if TH stated that she wanted to hurt Kyron?
B
@erose. The reason to do that is to avoid the risk of tesifying falsely under oath inadvertantly because the memory has dimmed. she or anyone else is likely to misremember something and vary with police interviews or their writings or their timeline as established by cameras. And that is all DA needs wrt anyone who is a friend of Terri. (leading to: “Say x about Terri or we’ll charge you with perjury.”) Porter, Keefer, Moultons, Tarvers, and other involved parties–Cook, Rudy, would be insane not to plead the fifth. I include Tarvers due to James’ attachment to them & thus some leverage on Terri. All those folks taking the fifth in Congressional hearings aren’t likely particularly guilty of anything.!
@cd. Plaintiff’s lawyer easy to refute imo
if printouts of social media dating to 2010
summer have been retained.
Spicher has an adversarial relationship with plaintiff due to
public accusations by plaintiff and her
agents of abduction conspiracy with defendant.
it seems to me her lawyer need only enter into evidence accusatory statements by individual
Roseburg Supports folks like SG online about Dede, demonstrate the person’s ties to Desiree rising
to the level of agents (demonstrations at DY’s behest in Roseburg, continual virtually daily posts on Roseburg Supports to contribute to the suit at gofundme, Kelly’s Gfm posts thanking SG, etc. While Roseburg Supports closed
to public after suit was filed, surely Dede had a criminal attorney whose paralegal printed them out regularly or
took screenshots.
Rose says:
October 23, 2012 at 7:29 am
OT http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=8183567
any thots why family’s been ruled out? We don’t know sex/age of Dad’s live-in girlfriend’s children. Or anything about her. It’s a family member’s word she left on bike. But the body was found near the home. Not reported til 930 pm plus the mom of her friend’s statement she was often there suggests weak homelife.
**********
Two teen boys have been arrested in the murder of Autumn and they are “not” family. Goes to show everyone automatically starts accusing the family.
Regarding breaking news in Hailey Dunn case… allegedly Hailey was abducted and held before dying of a drug overdose induced by captures. If true, then once again “not” the mom’s boyfriend or family after dragging them through the mud and wanting them hung.
@TRuth. TY for Poppa reminder,
whom I’d forgotten.
Refreshingly candid.
are you guys SURE DY & KH are not friendly, nor collaborating, because it looks to me like depositions in DY’s case are exquisitely timed to be occurring & generate press to adversely inflame public opinion leading up to the divorce litigation.
I think if that were the goal we would be looking at Kaine’s.- just my thought.
B
Okay, so let’s speculate that everyone and their mother pleads the 5th to at least some questions in their depositions in the civil case.
Then what?
One possibility is that the defense will move to dismiss as the plaintiff did not their burden of prima facie.
He obviously needs Spicher’s testimony on these issues, which is thin , imo.
B
Wow. I never read OLive comments, but skimmed p 1 as I saw a Trish Ramirez (veromi does not tie to DY.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/10/terri_hormans_friend_dede_spic.html#incart_river_default
And 58 min ago Sean Cruz, tge abduction law expert, accused DeDe of participating in an abduction, saying “think long and hard about it, because this will be your future. ”
I think Bernstein ought to know better than to quote plaintiff’s pleading, misleadingly, in her title: “…declines to answer any questions about Terri Horman…” That was an inflammatory headline. In fact the refusals all seem to relate to any aspect of the threatened criminal case whether Terri relates to the question or not.
I totally agree on the titling. No copies of the pleading either? SHe was hand-picked for the piece, gotta give the google juice.
Whoever that malasada poster is could give me a definite run for my money in the snark area. Wow.
B
Dede’s depo:
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/DeDe-watermarked-1.pdf
***************
Some of the questions were interesting to me, particularly Rosenthal’s questioning Dede on JW. She says she left him because she found him “emotionally wounded”. Interesting. Also, it was interesting that when she was asked whether LE ever asked for her permission to examine her phone records, emails, she said no. She was asked if she has ever given LE any emails, she said no. Of course, that doesn’t mean they didn’t just go in and take whatever, but it is interesting that she says she wasn’t asked.
Not that this means anything, but when asked when her relationship with JW ended, she’s asked if it was in 2010 and she says “yes, probably.” I’m thinking JW said something different, but I’ll have to go back and look, cuz I could be wrong.
Probably not at all significant to Kyron’s case, but JW said the relationship ended in early August 2009. (I really wonder why Rosenthal was asking Dede about JW.)
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/dede_spichers_former_boyfriend.html
Jason Wishert, who has volunteered as a child’s advocate in Multnomah County for more than a decade, said he dated Spicher for about 10 months, and they had even talked of marriage, but their relationship fell apart in early August 2009.
Another article devoid of fact checking. But not devoid of that rodeo clown with emotional wounds.
B
IMO
I think that Dede could have information gleaned from both knowing Kaine and Terri prior to 6/4/2010 and also insights from conversations she must have had with Terri when she stayed in the Horman’s house after Kyron went missing. But since LE/KH/Desiree have vilified her in the press and court of public opinion she is not about to relate anything she has heard or knows that relates to Desiree’s/Kyron’s case.
I believe that the whole what seems to me to be ” lets try this case in the media” is a big mistake because it alienates any potential witness’s who knew Terri or befriended her in any way from coming forward or giving any voluntary testimony in Desiree’s civil suit. Who wants their name smeared all over the media as being part of a child abduction case.
Since Desiree’s current legal representation seems to want to continue the use of the media in this case it makes me wonder if the real goal here is to find Kyron then why do things to make potential witnesses not want to talk to you.
Well said.
B
Malasada, I don’t miss
Wolf, on the other hand……. And what has happened to Woundtight?
Falstaff- I notice you do not reply to any of my responses. Why is that?
If I take the time and pay the respect of addressing your comments- in my house no less, what gives?
B
@Malty says:
October 23, 2012 at 1:22 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RE: “Just from memory it seems like Kaine asked Terri to be quiet…”
~~~~~~
Sorry I can’t say either where or when that was stated but I do remember Terri told “someone” that Kaine told her not to talk. I kinda doubt he “asked” her though. I was very, very curious as to why he would ask/tell her not to talk.
I take most of the OLive comments with more than just one grain of salt, but the following post caught my eye.. from “Franny”…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“the only one from my understanding who is not associated with the school and school teachers was the substitute teacher that day and it has been unclear whether he lawyered up or not.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/10/terri_hormans_friend_dede_spic.html#incart_river_default#incart_m-rpt-2
~~~~~~~~~~~
Was it ever established that the substitute was a male?? I read here most every day but perhaps I missed it…
TY, once again. Just hard to believe it’s about wanting to be right, and not getting at the truth. Especially when the truth leads to the whereabouts of a missing little boy. Right now, I’d give them all immunity just to find him.
Rose says:
October 23, 2012 at 5:26 pm
@erose. The reason to do that is to avoid the risk of tesifying falsely under oath inadvertantly…
T. Ruth says:
October 23, 2012 at 7:22 pm
Probably not at all significant to Kyron’s case, but JW said the relationship ended in early August 2009. (I really wonder why Rosenthal was asking Dede about JW.)
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/dede_spichers_former_boyfriend.html
Jason Wishert, who has volunteered as a child’s advocate in Multnomah County for more than a decade, said he dated Spicher for about 10 months, and they had even talked of marriage, but their relationship fell apart in early August 2009.
Another article devoid of fact checking. But not devoid of that rodeo clown with emotional wounds.
B
*******
I want to know why Rosenthal thought it significant to question Dede about Jason Wishert/art? If their *relationship* whatever it may have been was still ongoing in 2010, as Dede says, isn’t it possible his emotionally wounded persona may have wanted to take things out on her in one way or another. I just can’t get beyond JW saying this:
“Even a athiest would know they would burn in Hell forever for killing such an innocent soul. It was depriving Kane of his precious son that was the motivation here, not killing Kyron.”
http://realitychatter.forumotions.com/t2666-jw-name-removed-initials-only-please
The man creeps me out. Now, I’m seriously wondering if Kaine & Dede were an item at some point and an emotionally wounded JW took some sort of action. Almost sounds like he’s telling us exactly that. Questions, that’s all.
Wishart is not a well or stable man, imo.
B
BTW, unless Maxine has some other information we do not, she keeps saying Kyron never made it to class. As far as I know, it has never been said by LE whether he did or did not. Anyone heard for sure that he did not?
His jacket and backpack were there, how else would it have gotten there?
B
One other thing that caught my attention in the questions is when Rosenthal asks her if anyone else in her family is in the nursery or landscaping business. She replies no. Odd to me she didn’t mention her brother, who had/has a tree trimming business.
FWIW, I totally understand Dede’s taking the 5th. She was obviously being considered as an accomplice in Terri’s alleged crimes. No different for her IMO, than Terri. Quasi or defacto suspect, whatever. It will be interesting to see what the judge decides here. Man oh man, is this case going to be setting some precedent or what? I still get the feeling that the civil case is putting the cart before the horse. If allowed to go forward, can you imagine what that means for other cases? It’s beyond my pea pickin’ little brain, that’s for sure.
Hmmm, wow . . . hmmm.
Perhaps Rosenthal might consider going in through a back door so to speak via Tom Jones. It would be interesting to learn if DDS was using Tom Jones’ internet address/identity at GLP (with his knowledge) to write and submit comments on that website.
Cousin Tom Jones was already a GLP-er prior to the disappearance of Kyron, commenting on other topics . . . so he didn’t just “appear” out of nowhere, and he is indeed a real person who was contacted and interviewed by a local female reporter. (Accidentally came across the media video dating back 2 years with the female reporter reporting on the interview with Tom Jones not too long ago.)
Lea is wise not to post in response to queries, but to give input in articles as your legal consultant/analyst. Any chance to peal off her Part 2/3 input before this personal injury plaintiff’s attorney grabs more headlines with the SNL’s of Portland (kgw & OL) get our eye off the Big Picture of Finding Kyron. You know, that goal not in the Kyron Horman Foundation’s 3-part mission statement.
Distilled: can we hear a sound bite of analysis from the competent Lea?
We will, I promise.
B
I feel so lame because at this election season, the totality of those 142 depo questions just makes me free associate John Edwards (a winner among personal injury attorneys, with a larger agenda, electoral success).
Poor James. Did he get asked about drug use, skipping school, if he was bi, and more?. Who else but Kaine could’ve fed background info on James to ER as to any adolescent issues, adjustment, behaviors to enable drafting his 100 plus question drafting? Did James take 5th? (He should’ve as needed.)
DY, KH and LE pointed a direct finger at this woman, I have no idea why any person would be surprised at her position.
B
Blink. ITA and am amazed that posters are not only wondering why Dede is taking the 5th but somehow equate that with an “admission” of guilt. Rosenthal was clearly argumenative at times, in that deposition, and his questions were clearly phrased in such a way that any answer at all, besides the 5th, could be twisted to suggest her own involvement.
I’d like to know how many innocent prisoners were told, or were not represented as such, that they could not take the 5th. Seems to me that the innocence project would know that answer.
But, in reference to Media bias that I see some were discussing earlier: there was a link, if you went to the deposition itself, to this article:
“DeDe Spicher’s former boyfriend describes Terri Moulton Horman’s friend as a ‘high-energy, dynamic’ person who changed dramatically”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/dede_spichers_former_boyfriend.html
In the article, Wishert, 41, said he called the Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office tip line soon after hearing Spicher’s name in the news:
“My mouth was agape. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing,” Wishert recalled. “I thought, ‘Oh my gosh, there’s two things that investigators should look at.’ ”
He provided investigators with the name of a close confidante of Spicher, and an address in the 12700 block of Northwest Bishop Road in Washington County where Spicher had lived with an aunt after she moved to Portland from Klamath Falls. The Bishop Road address was one of the addresses investigators searched.
That’s bad enough. (I was thinking what an egotistical POS)
But then he says, as he recounts his experience with her:
“She was committed to exercise and a special diet, preparing her meals, mostly cooked vegetables, ahead of time in Tupperware containers.”
and then jumps to this conclusion:
“He said Spicher’s personality changed when she lost a receptionist job at QuadRep Northwest in January 2009. She lived on unemployment, stopped working out, and gave up her diet, he said.”
So….how the heck did he, and Maxine come to the conclusion that a “PERSONALITY CHANGE” had happened? And DRASTICALLY.
There is no evidence that Dede’s personality changed. Going on unemployment, not working out and eating alot when you lose a job is NORMAL.
Even at the end of the article Wisher:
… described Spicher as having a “good constitution” and intelligent but “emotionally gullible.”
So …. a DRASTIC personality change?
I’d say it was rather a DRASTIC reach for publicity by Wisert and a DRASTIC push by the Oregonian for to get headlines.
And the saga continues…..
margie/vw
Rose said,
….Poor James. Did he get asked about drug use, skipping school, if he was bi, and more?. Who else but Kaine could’ve fed background info on James to ER as to any adolescent issues, adjustment, behaviors to enable drafting his 100 plus question drafting? Did James take 5th? (He should’ve as needed.)
I’ve been wondering about that, too. I’d assume that Houze was with him, or the new civil suit expert the family hired. I was so PO”d when I read those personal questions.
Blink, are all those that are deposed in cases like this allowed to have their own attorney, or have one appointed if they can’t afford one?
@ January. Thanx. But it was the Dateline that I think was done at the end of the year. Where Kate Snow came to Portland and did a mock-run through of the TMH timeline and Savie. It was an hour special. Maybe in March, 2011. It kinda disappeared.
vw/margie
Sadly, I admit, at times I am that naive. I cannot believe in the face of this tragedy that people could have any other agenda besides finding Kyron. I am not by nature that cynical, however, I am being nurtured in that direction more all the time.
vw says:
October 24, 2012 at 12:41 am
snip>
Blink. ITA and am amazed that posters are not only wondering why Dede is taking the 5th but somehow equate that with an “admission” of guilt. Rosenthal was clearly argumenative at times, in that deposition, and his questions were clearly phrased in such a way that any answer at all, besides the 5th, could be twisted to suggest her own involvement.
@Jden – Trying to be careful on how I word this – my intention of this question is to either clarify, or learn a new fact that I may have missed. This is not at the defense of anyone or ‘anti’ anyone – but when you say ‘heresay that has been denied by TMH’ – when did she deny this? The only thing I’ve seen are e-mails via second hand (msm), which imo, seemed that she may have beento implying denial. Other than that, I’m just wondering if I missed something? (very possible w/ day and night job draining my noodle lately).
Jden says:
October 23, 2012 at 8:54 am
MBS @ 10/22 10:09pm
At :52 KH is visibly angry and emphatically states, “She (TMH) has not proven her innocence.”
Neither have you, Kaine. No one has. This speaks volumes to the manner that KH is accusing his wife. Most of everything we have heard from him is circumstantial rhetoric, unconfirmed heresay that has been denied by TMH.
This man’s first wife was granted an RO against him when she filed for divorce, citing fear he would remove the children from the home.
It’s diffucult to find credibility in anyone involved in this, from parents to witnesses to even LE.
I just finished reading this OLive article and I must say the comments are more interesting than the article itself.
I honestly don’t understand DeDe or her actions. If I thought that one of my friends was or could be involved in a crime, I would not protect them. I would not move in with them. I would not participate in a bat phone scheme. I would not eat nutter butters with them in my underwear. Maybe I am just a lousy friend, but that is the way I roll.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/10/terri_hormans_friend_dede_spic.html
LOL, but I think she is definitely on record to say she does not believe TH was involved.
B
Anyone else catch on page 16 line 13 when asked about her last relationship she answers “Jason Wishart. Yeah, that’s his last name”.
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/DeDe-watermarked-1.pdf
In skimming the depo my sense was while ER conducted questioning, Devlin prepared the depo questions and at times coached ER. Gratified to see a practicing criminal attorney in attendance, highlighting the criminal investigation is alive. Worried that this unattractive maiden lady without financial resources was merely relying on an old condo friend to represent her, I was gratified to see she had able representation. You find some empty suits, bombastically full of themselves, at some Bar functions. Imo Stavely appears neither and seems a good match with Houze’ own reticence. Anyway the puzzle may be solved as to how DY got to the Rosenthal firm. Devlin did a year of crim law in the DA’s office. By adapting well to her attorney’s guidance re answers, Spicher appears very bright. We still know nothing really about the involvement of these two ladies.
Well “Roseified” version. I never get tired of seeing the word bombastic.
B
Self-correct: We know nothing to date from DY’s Civil case.
Plenty of unvetted circumstantial evidence out there in media otherwise.
How many judges on bench in Portland once worked for DA? The office seems
very powerful for the population size.
@T. Ruth- I’ve also wondered if Kaine and Dede were an item, too. What made me wonder is that just months before Ky went missing, Dede and Kaine were secretly planning a surprise birthday party for Terri. (Which I find odd because making a dinner reservation and calling a few people does not take more than 20 minutes, so I’ve always wondered if it was an excuse for them to be communicating if Terri happened to check Kaines phone)
T. Ruth says:
October 23, 2012 at 10:36 pm
(snipped)
The man creeps me out. Now, I’m seriously wondering if Kaine & Dede were an item at some point and an emotionally wounded JW took some sort of action. Almost sounds like he’s telling us exactly that. Questions, that’s all.
(snipped)
Are you sure Dede was in on the planning? I thought I heard Kaine say they were not close and had little contact he was aware of?
B
My goodness I haven’t finished reading
DeDe and its on the news
About whether she can take the 5th
And maybe she can’t
Finally something is going on
I was surprised she was only 5’3″ and weighted
230something
I thought she was taller
Well Kyron is on the news now
Thanks DeDe
Question: Will the People interview come back and bite DeDe in the butt at some point? I wonder if the People reporter will be deposed? I would assume TH’s Dad will be deposed, and asked about his comments to People mag as well. What a mess this is, sigh…
@Rose and others, thanks for the posts about taking the Fifth and the reasons why, how that works, etc. I needed that, it was very helpful.
What is emotionally wounded
I SOOOO heart u Malty, what an excellent question. I am going to let someone else field that however, I cannot be objective. I think Wishart should be on watchlists.
B
Blink, I will try to find the quote where it talks about Dede helping with the planning.
Miss Bri says:
October 24, 2012 at 9:57 am
@T. Ruth- I’ve also wondered if Kaine and Dede were an item, too. What made me wonder is that just months before Ky went missing, Dede and Kaine were secretly planning a surprise birthday party for Terri. (Which I find odd because making a dinner reservation and calling a few people does not take more than 20 minutes, so I’ve always wondered if it was an excuse for them to be communicating if Terri happened to check Kaines phone)
T. Ruth says:
October 23, 2012 at 10:36 pm
(snipped)
The man creeps me out. Now, I’m seriously wondering if Kaine & Dede were an item at some point and an emotionally wounded JW took some sort of action. Almost sounds like he’s telling us exactly that. Questions, that’s all.
(snipped)
Are you sure Dede was in on the planning? I thought I heard Kaine say they were not close and had little contact he was aware of?
B
@idahogal
Thanks for the small laugh about friends
I think if she heard Terri or Kyron she said 5th
@cd
(Snipped “Since Desiree’s current legal representation seems to want to continue the use of the media in this case it makes me wonder if the real goal here is to find Kyron then why do things to make potential witnesses not want to talk to you.
Well said.
B)
——————————————————————–
I think they’ve “shot themselves in the foot” on this one.
Blink,
I cant seem to find an article about Dede planning the party. The only place it seems to be talked about is on scaredmonkeys, websleuths, etc. I’m not very good at researching, however, so it may exist. I do remember Kaine minimizing the amount of contact he had with Dede, though he’s not exactly consistent in his statments and contradicts himself nearly every time he talks.
Miss Bri says:
October 24, 2012 at 9:57 am
Boy. I would have taken the Fifth on THAT one, for sure! Lol
@Malty says: October 24, 2012 at 10:17 am
DeDe …. About whether she can take the 5th ….. I was surprised she was only 5’3″ and weighted 230 something. I thought she was taller
LOL True Dat Y’all.
B
I think it means a person has just never grown up. Pity party and all that…
@Malty says: October 24, 2012 at 11:40 am
What is emotionally wounded
I SOOOO heart u Malty, what an excellent question. I am going to let someone else field that however, I cannot be objective. I think Wishart should be on watchlists.
B
@VLH 10/24/12 at 320am
You have given me something to think about and thank you for reminding us that often our own perspective can affect our reality. Busy day, but I’m going to put this to thought tonight. And, thank you!
I keep wondering “what if” LE made a public statement that Terri has not been named a prime suspect and followed up with, we are releasing a single piece of information such as Kyron was last seen at… with a person with a description of…. Please call if you have any tips….
I guess just in my dreams but really feel that is what is needed to finding/solving Kyron’s case. If the “tips” further implicate Terri than that is what LE needed but “what if” those tips lead to someone else??
JMO
Etan was murdered by a 17 year old boy
Autumn was murdered by 15 yr old & 17 yr old brothers
Jessica was murdered by a 17 yr old boy
All of the murderers lived or worked very close to the last place the victims were seen.
I have said this before, I believe teenagers who were in Skyline School or the parking lot of the school on June 4, 2010 need to be thoroughly investigated. A teenager would not have “stood out” to anyone…….esp if he is a family member of a student.
Audio interview (@ 12:00 min) where Kaine talks about whether or not he knows Dede. He confirms she’s “one of the people” who helped plan Terri’s birthday party. Says she’d come out to the house every six months or so, meet Terri for lunch, a few phone calls, very infrequent, she seemed(s) like a nice person.
He does not specifically say that he called her to plan Terri’s birthday party.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/terri_hormans_emails_to_kyron.html
I could be wrong, but the only place I recall reading that Kaine asked Dede to help plan Terri’s 40th birthday party was on GLP, from Dede’s alleged cousin, poster Tom Jones. I pulled this from from GLP, so, take it with a huge grain of salt: (sorry no link any more, but someone over on GLP had made a summary of many of this persons posts, so I grabbed it.)
9-15-10
The 40th birthday party;
Dede said the birthday party was a surprise party for Terri put on by Kaine, he Emailed Dede in march asking her if she would help plan and setup the party, she agreed and assisted a woman named Liz plan it out.
Dede said she never saw Rudy at the party and never noticed any video being taken.
Dede said she never knew any of Terris friends before the party and met them for the first time at the party.
She said she had a pedicure with Terri and woman named Mimi at some time but never really knew her either( Mimi).
Dede also said she spent some time with the hormans over the years but not alot out side the Gym.
She said she went to a BBQ at their house in Aloha once and was the only one to show.
Went to the sheltered nook residence twice and Kaine was only present once for those vistis. This is before Kyron disappeared by the way.
She also said she went to dinner with Kaine and Terri twice, Aztece both times.
She also attended James birthday party at a bowling alley last year also.
As far as how she got along with Kaine she said he was nicer to her at the gym and when she was thinner, and colder when she got fat, kinda tolerant of her.
As far as how he treated Terri she said he was nicer to her in public and more withdrawn and kinda cold at home, for what she saw.
Dede mentioned she helped Terri get a job a providence by setting her up with an interview or something to that extent.
Dedes first phone conversation with Terri this year was June 22 and was from Terri. Phone records show this to be true according to her.
She doesn’t know anything about the Christmas party or newyears, she says she was in Klamath falls from Dec23 till Jan 11.
She had a meeting at OIT on the 10th in KFalls.
She had no contact with Terri before the surprise party at all.
***********
So, to the best of my knowledge, the planning of the party info is unverified and is a rumor, and came from the above. Does anyone have anything different?
Blink if JW said some the stuff about me that he said about DeDe
I would have not say emotionally wounded
To darn polite:)
He is not a well man, and that is both my personal and professional opinion of him.
B
Malty says:
October 24, 2012 at 11:40 am
What is emotionally wounded
I SOOOO heart u Malty, what an excellent question. I am going to let someone else field that however, I cannot be objective. I think Wishart should be on watchlists.
B
************
Isn’t it interesting that Rosenthal/Devlin did not expound on that answer.
Malty, I can’t say what Dede meant, but I’m guessing she meant he’s got a past that is difficult for him to deal with, he’s been emotionally hurt by someone and is carrying around the baggage. Exactly what that is, would be all speculation on my part.
So, will JW be deposed in this case as well?
@Malty. She also said 5th about anything to do with the abduction dates & events. Imo replied 5th about any subject matter LE questioned her herself on (bi, Wishart). While LE’s questions came from either their fantasies or their leads during her 3.5 hours questioning and the follow up LE questioning phone calls. That is, anything whatsoever LE previously asked her when she was looked at as a possible accomplice.
@ Malty & your excellent question (emotionally wounded).
In my fantasy, Dede’s comment analogizes to Kristian’s family experience &
its internal aftermath to him.