Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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I would put money on it that he will be deposed…
On another note I got home early today to see that our landlord has hired a new landscape company for our Condo… RS Landscape Maintenance… Not sure what to think about that…
T. Ruth says:
October 24, 2012 at 2:40 pm
So, will JW be deposed in this case as well?
Driving around today I pondered what it means for a former criminal attorney in the DAs office to conduct a civil suit to solve a crime, any crime against person or property; we just have a child here. Dating to our Constitution, well back into our roots in English law, and embellished by tried & true case law accumulating over centuries, year by year, as well as criminal statutes respected by the judiciary, we have well settled criminal procedures controlling investigations, arrests, and trials. Our Revolution was based in part on British abuse of criminal procedure.
Are we as a society proposing States may pass laws to circumvent criminal procedure by Civil suits: usurping criminal investigation, charging, and trial through Civil personal injury or tort actions when the allegations are such a grand jury will not charge–that legal DA tool that reputedly will indict a ham sandwich?
Here’s bombastic: I think it’s a fraud on the judiciary and on society to bring a civil action, whether under State statute or not, for the purpose of investigating and convicting of a criminal act, where none has been charged much less tried by our criminal enforcers & triers of fact. This differs entirely from OJ who was charged & tried. The Simpson Civil did not have a primarily investigative purpose.
thinking more & on.
This is the perfect set of defense facts, imo, to get Oregon’s “first in the nation” law declared unConstitutional all
the way up to the Supremes, though I don’t think OR AG would push past the appellate level. The Bill’s sponsor is gone from the legislature (retired). That outcome in OR’s history books seems incentive enough for a retired Wagner to come out of retirement.
You *must* please report back.
PDXRichie says:
October 24, 2012 at 4:00 pm
@PDXRichie, And if it does not go with out saying, watch all of the kids. (If not him, then who? kwim?)
erose
I had to be a sight, because all I could do for almost a solid minute was stare at the sign… I was actually kind of scared… When I regained my composure I made sure it was the same company and when I googled the phone number from the sign and such it came back with all the ServiceMagic reviews someone posted on here earlier so it is his company…
Does anybody have a link to that photo of Rudy Blink had on here?
BTW, they did a fantastic job, much better than the last company…
erose says:
October 24, 2012 at 4:50 pm
@PDXRichie, And if it does not go with out saying, watch all of the kids. (If not him, then who? kwim?)
Do people ( such as supporters of a poi, or even people hired by defense attorneys) ever post on these types of forums for the purpose of directing attention away from a poi, and towards anyone and everyone except the poi?
ALL THE TIME
B
@pdxritchie
he’s still going strong, with a 4.8 rating, several consumers using same phrasing. (Do some business owners hand out scripted talking points?)
http://www.servicemagic.com/rated.RSLandscape.16539937.html
You use the word “condo,” although you say “landlord.”
So I will assume you are in a condo with a homeowners’ assn & fees even if you rent.
In an incorporated condominium assn, it is a “managing agent”
who recommends contractors and may have received delegated authority
to sign contracts from a managing Homeowners’ Assn Board elected under Bylaws.
Quite often the managing agent is a company with a liaison to the Board, which that managing company in turn hires an onsite employee to deal with daily business. I was for 6 yrs on such a Board & on an Executive Comm & on the Finance & Admin Committee, and had about a week of training along with other startup Biard volunteers by the Community Assns Institute.
If you are in a Condo, whether or not you rent, you will find there is likely an Admin Committee involved to
some extent in contracts, even groundskeeping. And ordinarily there is a Board subcommittee having to do with
grounds upkeep.
You can ascertain the Board members leading Groundskeeping &/Admin Committees if you wish to explore this contract, and you can ask them
what bid specs were put out, what companies bid, how the grounds care co was selected (price?).
Hopefully your Condo is organized with an active Board, and it wasn’t the onsite employee mgr just hiring a friend from their neighborhood or church, say.
@pdxritchie. dang free associations.
wasn’t DeDe in a condo?
Wasn’t she on the Board, such as it was?
Methinks that condo had a groundskeeping contract too.
Nice to know RS L is in the condo business.
Do you think she originally gave Terri the link to RS from her condo work?
Maybe also have referred her condo’s ground contractor to
that elderly lady whose property business she moved bulbs
around for without pay (work as described in the depo that I wouldn’t ask my
kids to do w/ out pay). She outlined technical hard gardening work any
property owner should pay well to get a motivated knowledgeable person to do.
And, if I were DeDe & working without pay, I’d disappear a few hours at a time when I wanted
a break, & I’d cut my throat before I’d sit to eat even a free meal with such a skinflint
who’d pay an untrained immigrant but call me an internship,
It would be interesting to know “which/whom” of the many main ‘cast of characters’ are participating in these discussions, anonymously. Also would be interesting to know if any of them are IT savvy enough to track any of us opinionated types down (isn’t there some sort of computer code people can follow? – IP address? I dunno – a computer is still basically a fancy typewriter to me…) and give us a good scare. Hopefully not.
…too bad this is all starting to sound kind of soap-opera-ish, at the expense of poor little Kyron. It’s like his family (probably except for his mom and maybe, hopefully, his dad) and us are the only ones who want him found and returned. Poor little guy – it just breaks your heart.
@Panda says: October 24, 2012 at 6:14 pm
Do people ( such as supporters of a poi, or even people hired by defense attorneys) ever post on these types of forums
Regarding DDS, KH and TH’s birthday party. Third response down from “Monkey King”. Also if you go back to early posts on BOC there are references to this also.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8547.235;wap2
BOC picture of Rudy Sanchez
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=blink+on+crime+rudy+sanchez&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS366US366&biw=1117&bih=580&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnso&tbnid=VPyY60zsIbOgSM:&imgrefurl=http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/09/09/kyron-horman-missing-case-review-and-birthday-wishes-to-the-frog-prince/&docid=rdtaTFtgmQU08M&imgurl=http://blinkoncrime.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Sanchez_201.jpg&w=720&h=486&ei=zZeIUPKbDOP9igLSwYGIDg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=0&sig=106429459168861476752&page=1&tbnh=133&tbnw=186&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0,i:92&tx=94&ty=90
To any of you who are here not because you care about Kyron being found and having justice for him, but because you want to manipulate public opinion and possible jury pool, shame on you. You are part of the problem ,not the solution. Shame on you.
@Blink. Well, I’ll take exception to “people HIRED by …attorneys” posting online to misdirect an investigation.
Attorneys are totally responsible to supervise their hirees comporting with ethical professional rules and imo that would be a direct route to a Bar investigation with sanctions. imo,
I am surprised that the details of any deposition are public before the trial begins. I did not expect that. Was this information ONLY available to the media/public because it was part of the motion Rosenthal filed to have the judge go over the questions one by one to determine if her refusal to answer was proper?
@Panda
If you have been here a long time
You start to notice a pattern
Some times I wonder the same as your question
@lyla says:
October 24, 2012 at 8:29 pm
As I posted earlier, lyla, I think those all came from GLP. Sure doesn’t mean it isn’t true, but we need to consider the source. IMO
Anyway what ever is up with DeDe
Kyron is in the news again
I think it is great as some people not on this forum
Or the net act like this case is old news
And solved
For us here it is alive and on going
But not for many who seem to have moved on
So may some truth will finally surface
Even if they all take the 5th
Kyron deserves to be remembered
I was thrilled to see a review on the case on TV
Yes yes yes
Great
Panda says:
October 24, 2012 at 6:14 pm
Do people ( such as supporters of a poi, or even people hired by defense attorneys) ever post on these types of forums for the purpose of directing attention away from a poi, and towards anyone and everyone except the poi?
ALL THE TIME
B
**************
Published June 3, 2011:
Multnomah County Sheriff’s detectives, FBI agents and up to four state justice department investigators have spent the past six months examining at least 60 persons of interest in the disappearance of Kyron from his school.
Their multi-agency task force has looked at registered sex offenders in the area of the school, the Horman home, visitors to the school that day, and others who may have made cell phone calls that were routed to cell phone towers near the school, the Horman home and Sauvie Island the morning he disappeared.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/06/kyron_horman_task_force_to_dis.html
***********
Sometimes I wonder if we are all *losing it in the details*. So many people have been under not ony MCSO’s but other LE, FBI , PPB, etc. scrutiny and yet nothing has been found. Why not? That leads me to believe that Kyron was abducted by a total stranger (or a very removed acquaintance). JMO, and I reserve the right to change my mind if further information ever surfaces, LOL.
Anywho, my point is, who knows who could possibly be posting in any such forum to try to point direction in this case, either away or towards someone? IMO someone definitely could find out, in this day and age of computer hacking, but still nothing form LE….nothing.
@Rose
“Here’s bombastic: I think it’s a fraud on the judiciary and on society to bring a civil action, whether under State statute or not, for the purpose of investigating and convicting of a criminal act, where none has been charged much less tried by our criminal enforcers & triers of fact. This differs entirely from OJ who was charged & tried. The Simpson Civil did not have a primarily investigative purpose.”
Hell, I still need to go look up the word bombastic, but yes, yes, yes. This is just so avant-garde. I one way I wish that Kantor had just shut this down, in the other, I hope that it’s allowed to proceed and bring Kyron home.
As for DeDe Spicher, according to sources, her condominium in Tualatin was searched last week and investigators took her computer and phone.
She is a board member with her condo association at the Orchard Hills Condominium.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/99146044.html
“I’ve been a board member off and on since 2005, and I frequently receive comments about our landscaping. Before Willamette began caring for our property none of those comments were positive. Now, none of them are negative. None. Everyone I talk to is very pleased with how our community looks.”
D. Spicher – Orchard Hill Condominium
http://www.willamettelandscape.com/testimonials
Wonder if Breide used him, wasn’t his water bill herculean due to irrigation of his property? BTW, It is not unusual for companies like this to use subcontractors, though I am not suggesting they used RS, just saying it’s possible.
snip>
…he is the only active Certified Irrigation Contractor in a landscape services company in the Portland / Vancouver area. ……
http://www.willamettelandscape.com/about-us/meet-the-team/jesse-stegman
He serves as our primary English / Spanish language interpreter and is instrumental in employee hiring and training.
http://www.willamettelandscape.com/about-us/meet-the-team/ignacio-vallines
Since WLS sets the standard, I guess we can assume other landscaping business use GPS systems.
WLS also utilizes a GPS system to help manage costs by monitoring crew driving habits, stop locations, idle time and speed. All managers also save on fuel costs by driving hybrid vehicles, which also supports the company’s commitment to the environment.
“We recycle 8 million tons of yard debris annually,” Triplett relates. “We’re Eco-Biz certified, meaning that, among other environmental practices, we minimize resource use and minimize or reuse wastes. For example, all facility power comes from 100% renewable resources like wind and bio-mass recycling. WLS offers customers a no-pesticides and organic-based fertilizer program, along with access to our Water Conservation services. And all of our managers drive Toyota Prius hybrids.”
http://www.greenindustrypros.com/article/10257998/creating-lasting-impressions?page=2
I’m sure we saw this, but two weeks before Kyron went missing this effort was ongoing, and I notice that Keefer does not limit the activity to Sunday, or the weekend, but all week long. So what else was going on during that week of activity?
snip>
Ben Keefer, principal of Skyline Elementary School, where volunteers did landscaping projects, painted, cleaned out an underutilized storage area, broke apart unwieldy items for the trash and installed new benches, said this in his weekly bulletin:
“There is no doubt that this past week was one full of activity, but nothing in recent memory approaches what happened on Sunday. We were sponsored by Sunset Presbyterian for a volunteer event that was truly amazing. Over 100 volunteers from the church combined with many Skyline families to work a miracle of sorts on our school.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/north-of-26/index.ssf/2010/05/sunset_presbyterian_volunteers_number_1600_for_wide-reaching_sunday_cleanup.html
RedRose says:
October 24, 2012 at 8:10 pm
It would be interesting to know “which/whom” of the many main ‘cast of characters’ are participating in these discussions, anonymously. Also would be interesting to know if any of them are IT savvy enough to track any of us opinionated types down (isn’t there some sort of computer code people can follow? – IP address? I dunno – a computer is still basically a fancy typewriter to me…) and give us a good scare. Hopefully not.
**********
Regarding tracing IP addresses, forums such as here, only the owner and admins can see and trace your IP and it really only will show your provider and city/state.
If you send a personal email, the recipient can trace the same but you will never get a real name or physical address without a supoena.
It’s kind of good to know how, if you ever get a threatening email and what to know the origin.
I am not tech savvy but have had enough experience to learn about ip tracing. Btw, a real techy person knows how to “spoof their ip” which is way out of my level of experience.
BTW, the dude that wrote the book based supposely “loosely” on Kyron’s case is not from Norway as he claims. He is from Newberg, OR and if I was Desiree I would be sueing his butt, it does correctly fall under the legal copyright laws. JMO.
Hold the phone. What book?
B
sorry for grammar mistakes- should be “want to know the origin” and “it does “not” fall under the legal copyright laws as fiction”
In a new OLive comment to
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/10/terri_hormans_friend_dede_spic.html#comments
Sean Cruz says:
“…..you have not seen all the surprises yet.”
People need to think long and hard before they get involved in an abduction. ”
Sounds like he has “inside information” from DY or her attorney Devlin,
reminds me of Wishart’s claims to insider info of DeDe.
Really inappropriate. Will he be testifying?
B
Malty says:
October 24, 2012 at 11:40 am
What is emotionally wounded
I SOOOO heart u Malty, what an excellent question. I am going to let someone else field that however, I cannot be objective. I think Wishart should be on watchlists.
B
Blink, I could not agree more about him! I’m so glad you said that, and Webster may as well put his pic in the dictionary under “emotionally wounded”. Snark, snark.
Also, just to clarify my earlier post:
Even if I didn’t think my BFF was guilty I would not eat nutter butters with them in my undies. I don’t even do that with my dear hubby, although he would probably like that, LOL. The truth is I would keep a ten foot pole between myself and everyone involved in the case.
In following the Ridgeway & Pasquale cases I have started looking at Kyron’s case through that other lens from long ago. I am thinking about a teenager, reconsidering that angle a bit.
Blink, you know of whom I speak, goth atheist A. Villarreal. His father had passed less than a year prior in the motorcycle accident, and Mom’s (Kim H.)drinking and other issues have worsened over time, or so it would seem given her DUI, et al. It seemed that the whole family was going to heck in a hand basket. That whole clan still make my wheels turn, and I can’t help wondering about him. I trust you’ll tell me if I am wasting my precious brain output.
1. Miss Bri says:
October 24, 2012 at 9:24 am
Anyone else catch on page 16 line 13 when asked about her last relationship she answers “Jason Wishart. Yeah, that’s his last name”.
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/DeDe-watermarked-1.pdf
Yes I did. IMO, most people would know the last name of someone they were dating and talking marriage with. I also noticed on page 36 line 9 “Did Terri ever talk with you about taking any drugs or medications that enhanced her ability to get pregnant and to eventually become pregnant with Kiara?” and on page 32 line 9 “Are you aware whether Kyron was having any problems with his stepbrother James prior to June 4, 2010?” IMO, James loves Kyron like a brother and had no involvement in Kyrons disappearance. But I wonder what was said to him as the reason why he was leaving his home on Shelter Nook Rd. If Kyron was used as an excuse so that James would not be crushed w/yet another Father figure disappearing from his life (we did hear rumors that James & Kaine were butting heads) then perhaps James conveyed the Kyron excuse to a friend who considers himself Satan’s Spawn? IMO, parents would not encourage a friendship with AV and perhaps he was angry that James left. MOO
More thoughts…kids and people in general are not going to be wary of a lone teenager, IMHO. Maybe if they are all gangsta and scary looking with pants hanging on their knees, but otherwise, kwim? If you pass or are approached by a normal looking teen, your first thought isn’t going to be “this kid is going to harm me”. Especially at a school function, right?
This also applies to the Ridgeway and Pasquale cases, it definitely played a factor in both, IMHO.
PDXRichie says:
October 24, 2012 at 5:59 pm
Okay, that is really creepy, I would spazz over that for sure.
RS landscaping has been around in my neighborhood in the past and it always catches my breath. They have a white box truck that creeps me out (besides their regular small white truck with trailer).
I have personally had WAY too many coincidences with an RS (who turned out NOT to be THIS RS, but a very unfortunately named man for someone who pays attention to these things).
The RS I know was hired by my husband to do some work. We both met RS at the gym (red flag #1) and his day job is landscaping (red flag #2), I flipped when my husband told me his name. He didn’t look like THIS RS picture, and the landscaping company he works for is named something else. I was incredulous for a couple of days.
mas says:
October 25, 2012 at 8:18 am
Hold the phone. What book?
B
**********
Sohlberg and the Missing Schoolboy
http://www.amazon.com/Sohlberg-Missing-Schoolboy-Inspector-ebook/dp/B0083CVEKC/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1337365474&sr=1-1#reader_B0083CVEKC
You can read for free at this link
http://www.rulit.net/books/death-on-pilot-hill-read-228869-1.html
He says it is fiction but dedicated the book to Kyron, you would have to read it to understand why I say it does not fall under the “loosely based” in legality to copyright laws.
The author is extremely vocal on his twitter account regarding Kyron’s case.
I emailed the author with questions and he replies were all dishonest and the one that he said yes he lives in Norway but in the email his ip is Newberg, OR, which really gets under my skin for numerous reasons .
I am not going to be able to block the time to read that, but could some astute reader let me know if there appears to be anything proprietary in there?
B
This book?
http://www.amazon.com/Sohlberg-Missing-Schoolboy-Inspector-mystery/dp/1477528091/ref=la_B006C2D8WM_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351185050&sr=1-1
mas says:
October 25, 2012 at 8:18 am
(snipped)
“Hold the phone. What book?”
B
=================================================================
I believe this is the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Sohlberg-Missing-Schoolboy-Inspector-ebook/dp/B0083CVEKC/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1337365474&sr=1-1
That link was on this page about the author:
http://jensamundsen.blogspot.com/
A Nov. 25, 2011 blog entry toward the bottom of the blog page refers to Kyron’s case.
Ooooh yes I found those questions to be very interesting too. I would be surprised to learn that James and Kyron were having problems, James seems like a loving brother from the couple of things we’ve heard him say. I would love to know if she was taking drugs to get pregnant. Didnt Kaine at some point threaten Terri that he would subpoena her medical records? I wonder if that would be the reason why.
——————-
nate0419 says:
October 25, 2012 at 9:09 am
Yes I did. IMO, most people would know the last name of someone they were dating and talking marriage with. I also noticed on page 36 line 9 “Did Terri ever talk with you about taking any drugs or medications that enhanced her ability to get pregnant and to eventually become pregnant with Kiara?” and on page 32 line 9 “Are you aware whether Kyron was having any problems with his stepbrother James prior to June 4, 2010?” IMO, James loves Kyron like a brother and had no involvement in Kyrons disappearance. But I wonder what was said to him as the reason why he was leaving his home on Shelter Nook Rd. If Kyron was used as an excuse so that James would not be crushed w/yet another Father figure disappearing from his life (we did hear rumors that James & Kaine were butting heads) then perhaps James conveyed the Kyron excuse to a friend who considers himself Satan’s Spawn? IMO, parents would not encourage a friendship with AV and perhaps he was angry that James left. MOO
impressive carch erose that volunteers were doing school cleaning & painting & installation projects all week long only 2 weeks before abduction. One wonders how closely Keefer knew who was working from moment to moment during school hours, how he kept track of them (did all sign a log), and supervised them. Or did he keave that to pta volunteers.
@TRuth. I was applying bombastic, negatively, to myself.
@erose. Would love to know who served Spicher’s condo before Willamette
and when that geoundskeeper was let go.
@Panda. My own experience in THIS site is everyone returns because our common goal is to Find Kyron and to Bring Justice to all, however peripherally conspirators may be
involved before or after. There is a wide set of opinions on the best way to achieve that, many not popular, but all respected as well-intended. My own point of view is “no earthly idea”.
I agree the investigation needs to move forthwith to Federal hands, and local LE (the original task force members) need to do an autopsy and improvement of procedures, management wise. I believe we’ll all repeatedly given great deference to Desiree’s and Kaine’s loss and suffering. At the sane time imo her suit is not in her best interests to achieve her goal, and Kaine’s Kyron Horman Foundation’s website connected to his sales do not list the goal if finding Kyron. I believe third parties with their own missions inserting themselves into the case and/or bios lives do Finding Kyron no favor.
The book, Blink
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1477528091/ref=redir_mdp_mobile
his website http://jensamundsen.blogspot.com/2012/05/re-release-and-revised-translation-of.html?m=1
his tweets say he’s donated to Desiree’s suit & asks others to do so, pans DeDE, and calls Terri Stepmonster
https://mobile.twitter.com/JensAmundsen/tweets
http://www.jensamundsen.blogspot.com/2011/11/why-kyron-horman-investigation-failed.html
Here is the author’s take on the Kyron Horman “botched” investigation. Interesting. I would love to know the realy name of this “Norwegian”.
*real name
Whoaaaa…Book? Oh, wait. I see there are other inquiries.
Thanks for the info on IT or hack-types, mas. I know there is a thing as computer forensics (oh, for sure! I watch TV!! LOL), but didn’t know the other that you explained.
One thing I wondered about was that GPS. If landscapers have them in their trucks, maybe they had installed the “Lake Oswego Stolen GPS” and LE could track their movements.
Also wondered about the Sunset Presby volunteers the weekend before (a week is enough time for a PERP to plan things). Were Kyron and his family at the school helping with the clean-up? Were all of those Sunset Presby volunteers checked out? Now, I’m NOT stereotyping, but sometimes a super-religious person will look at lifestyles and think they are “rescuing” a child from a situation they don’t agree with.
Well, I’ll have to check out that book. Newberg is only just 20 miles straight south of Skyline Elementary. Wonder who wrote it? Well, it should say up above. I’ll read.
@mas says: October 25, 2012 at 8:18 am
BTW, the dude that wrote the book based supposely “loosely” on Kyron’s case is not from Norway as he claims. He is from Newberg, OR and if I was Desiree I would be sueing his butt, it does correctly fall under the legal copyright laws. JMO.
Hold the phone. What book?
B
Panda says:
October 24, 2012 at 9:31 pm
To any of you who are here not because you care about Kyron being found and having justice for him, but because you want to manipulate public opinion and possible jury pool, shame on you. You are part of the problem ,not the solution. Shame on you.
————-
I don’t think there is that many people if any trying to manipulate public opinion via blog postings who were hired by the lawyers of the person being accused of a crime. I don’t see any point in it because in the end public opinion seems to have nada effect on the legal outcomes of criminal cases. In example Casey Anthony case where there was a lot of negative public outrage against her but she still was found not guilty.
The only thing I could see in case manipulation that could arise from blog postings would be using the negative postings as proof that a change of venue would be required for a case because of a tainted jury pool. But even that would probably not ever happen because even though it seems like a lot of people post and read blogs I think that compared to the overall population there are really not even that many people posting on and reading these blogs at least not enough to sway the outcome of a jury trial.
I think that the local media stories have a much greater effect on public opinion then the blogs and comments do. It looks to me like some of the questions Rosenthal ask in Dede’s deposition will spawn more rumors a gossip about TH. Questions like did TH take drugs to get pregnant (like Dede would have known that anyway) or the questions about Dede being bisexual. It seemed more like Rosenthal wanted to say those things about TH and Dede and was able to do so as under the guise of questions as part of a deposition he knew was going to be published in the media.
all IMO
@Rose, Well he doesn’t exactly say the volunteer effort lasted a week, but he does say a week full of activity. I’m wondering what else was going on that week.
“There is no doubt that this past week was one full of activity, but nothing in recent memory approaches what happened on Sunday. We were sponsored by Sunset Presbyterian for a volunteer event that was truly amazing. Over 100 volunteers from the church combined with many Skyline families to work a miracle of sorts on our school.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/north-of-26/index.ssf/2010/05/sunset_presbyterian_volunteers_number_1600_for_wide-reaching_sunday_cleanup.html
Could be that this management group makes the decision as to who mows the lawns.
http://www.bpmcondos.com/associations.html
I have found a different forum that is a better fit for me, where posters seem to be muh more even handed and open minded, and not so down right RIDICULOUS, quite frankly. If TH stood up tomorrow and confessed to being fully responsible for Kyron’s disappearance, I’m convinced many posters here would deny that she is guilty and claim that there is a conspiracy to pressure her into confessing and she is actually innocent! There seems to be an anyone except TH attitude here and no, Rose, I do not believe everyone here has the common goal you referred to. Best wishes to all who want Kyron to come home.
Why is it that people that are sold on a woman’s guilt absent any evidence, criminal charges or the whereabouts of this child only want to post with posters that agree with them?
I submit that if your position was one of strength in the first place, that would not be so important.
Being right does not locate missing children unless that comes with a map that leads to them, imo.
You are mistaken, interpreting for others, or have not taken the time to review my very extensive work and commentary on Ky’s case if your opinion is as you state.
I completely understand , I am not interested in building cliques- I am interested in critical thinking inspired by advocacy for victims- regardless of who is responsible, or whether or not at the end of the day I am right about something.
Their is not enough information to form a conclusion by LE or grand jury. Dont we owe it to Kyron to stay open to verifiable information?
B
Sheriff Staton Oct. 2010
“When asked if people would be shocked to find out what they know, Staton took a long silence.
‘”I know I’m taking a long pause on that, I have to think through that answer. I think there are things that come out of this investigation that will surprise you, that you’ll think about later on when it’s over. We have a knowledge of things we don’t want to know about … of things we wish we didn’t know,” he added.”‘
http://www.kgw.com/news/Sheriff-No-evidence-Kyron-Horman-is-not-alive-103003704.html
——————————————————
Since this is a criminal investigation I’m trying to imagine a scenario that would surprise me and can’t come up with one…a random SO…possibly?