Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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@RedRose. Sunset Presby was the Sundayvolunteer group.
We do not know who carried out the activities during the week before.
It was pretty easy to find the blogger who stated she traced back his blog bio
online pic to both his facebook & son’s myspace, identifying his name. All I can say is people can take
pics from any open source on line and use as their pic (who’s gonna know?), and
maybe someone just thought the pic looked both featureless & virile. Anyway the
alleged nonpseudonym was a public interest attorney who ran for Judge in Vancouver WA in the late 80s against apparently one of the most intemperate and unprofessional man conceiveably on the bench–and lost. Kinda gives one no faith in elected judges in those parts (finally unseated by his own party in 2012). I thought maybe this man’s
new wife of 2007 might be Norweigian & just wanted to write as a man as the alleged author forswore not only no comingling of any asset but also entirely no knowledge of any asset of hers. on reading the pseudonym’s twitter acct a bit, I feel his writing style is a woman’s amd is not likely the writing style of an SMU JD nor a Wharton finance grad.
Anyway, I’m not confident the id is correct from a picture alone, and suggest we not delve further because whoever it is threatened a reader on twitter on Sept 14 this year after a bad review. What author threantens readers for a bad Amazon review? (Because she/he returned the books, he posted he had her bank and personal info, threateningly.) I don’t think an attorney would do that.
self correct: ran for judge in late 2000 decade.
with my 8 in there you can guess which year.
@nate etc. re: line 9 “Did Terri ever talk with you about taking any drugs or medications that enhanced her ability to get pregnant and to eventually become pregnant with Kiara”
Having done my fair share of in vitros, and being on Board & Exec Comm of local Resolve for 6 years, long ago and far away, I absolutely believe no ob gyn or repro endo would prescribe any pregnancy-facilitating medication without her husband’s involvement. and I can’t imagine what drug that would be, that would be prescribed, without it culminating in a procedure of some kind involving the introduction of sperm. You take one class of drug to multiply eggs and another to sustain an implant for a bit. Unless she had an autoimmune issue (anticardiolipin antibodies I think one issue was called) which needed treatment to sustain a fetus. Because she’d had a healthy boy, I don’t yhink she had issues. one can manipulate the Pill, but that doesn’t enhance pregnancy, just makes it possible. Obviously she did just that.
So maybe Devlin’s reference means Terri was into homeopathy or something, but to me that would only show her state of mind wanting to get pregnant and could not be called medication.
Panda says:
October 24, 2012 at 6:14 pm
Do people (such as supporters of a poi, or even people hired by defense attorneys) ever post on these types of forums for the purpose of directing attention away from a poi, and towards anyone and everyone except the poi?
ALL THE TIME
B
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Panda says:
October 24, 2012 at 9:31 pm
To any of you who are here not because you care about Kyron being found and having justice for him, but because you want to manipulate public opinion and possible jury pool, shame on you. You are part of the problem ,not the solution. Shame on you.
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@Panda – Yes Panda, you are right, but they will continue to do this, without a doubt.
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Malty says:
October 24, 2012 at 10:43 pm
@Panda
If you have been here a long time
You start to notice a pattern
Sometimes I wonder the same as your question
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@Malty – I love your posts….I have been here a long time too. I see the pattern as well. The posts are subtle, but the objective is clear as time goes on.
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Rose says:
October 25, 2012 at 1:59 pm
@Panda. My own experience in THIS site is everyone returns because our common goal is to Find Kyron and to Bring Justice to all, however peripherally conspirators may be
involved before or after. There is a wide set of opinions on the best way to achieve that, many not popular, but all respected as well-intended. My own point of view is “no earthly idea”.
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@Rose – you are a true diplomat. You take in the posters comments for digestion and reply with consideration. I don’t remember ever seeing a “high school” or snarky reply to a comment from you. I appreciate that, as well as your statement “My own point of view is “no earthly idea”. You, like the majority of us that post, just want Kyron found and justice served regarding his disappearance. As Blink stated though, there are some posters with a different agenda. It’s the internet.
If I were a jury consultant, I might use a blog like this to see what type of juror I was looking for. A defense attorney might use this type of input to determine what type of evidence, or character attributes could sway their case, as could the prosecution. A recent case of Blink’s had the mother of a victim posting, as well as a number of community residents, and maybe other involved parties, or family members of those involved. Where else could a dialogue such as this exist? I feel like part of a social experiment which could do some good. It’s intriguing, and at times uncomfortable, which is why I like having a moderator. Thanks again Blink.
How very candid and astute.
B
I almost forgot, cops could use a site like this for tips.
If Sean Cruz and Aaron’s Law can assist Kyron Horman in any way,
I thankfully say bravo.
Was not surprised that Desiree’s civil case was allowed to proceed and I will not be surprised if Judge Kantor compels DDS to answer questions once he goes through her pleadings one by one.
Also think it is possible that Desiree’s legal may have already found that back door via cousin Tom Jones’ ID on GLP and perhaps the poster-friend’s ID on SM’s. Yes, indeedy, quite possible,
@Panda
(snipped) “There seems to be an anyone except TH attitude here and no, Rose, I do not believe everyone here has the common goal you referred to. Best wishes to all who want Kyron to come home.”
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I think if you go back to the beginning of posts on this forum for Kyron Horman you may have a different opinion. Time consuming yes. Worth the effort yes, as always..just my opinion.
Reading over the depo again. Some notes.
@ Rose and Nate
I kept thinking why these particular questions were asked. And why some were not. For example, did they ever ask Dede if she knew about her friend’s phone “pinging” on Sauvie Island?
I, too, was surprised at why they asked the invitro-like question. At first I thought it would be pointing to steroid/drugs/alcohol affecting a possible psychotic change over time. But Kaine’s testimonies, until the threat of visitation, never indicated a severe change in personality.
So…now i’m kinda thinking about the intent of the questions as a whole. Kaine had indicated that TMH wanted a baby and he didn’t. Could he have created that question in order to establish that TMH was so desperate to have a baby herself (“It’s all about Terry” were his words at one time) that she hid an in-vitro attempt from him.
Pretty absurd if he suggested that. But it’s in keeping with his lack of “common sense” household” knowlege.So maybe he not only didn’t know what Kiara’s favorite Binky was —- he didn’t know who her father was? I just don’t trust that guy, much.
Also can’t remember who as i’ve read thru fast (and am typing faster…mia culpa).
But regarding James. Just a bit i’ve gleaned and thought about cuz I have two kids with that same difference in ages. From everything i’ve read and from pictures it appears he had a strong bond with Kyron. That he, himself seemed so calm and rational to me, given his own stresses that year says something of his upbringing. To have two grandparents who seemed to always be there for me might have made a big difference for him.
And regarding his leaving. I think TMH was planning it late 2009. I found court documents that legally changed his name from his dad’s to Moulton. There were several steps TMH had to go through to do so, from late december to January something. At the time, a few months ago, I wondered why. But then we know on Dec 17th 911 was called (and an ambulance was summoned). Houze asked for the records by MCSO said no. Someone told me it was TMH trying to get help for an acute something of Kaine’s….maybe he just wanted to get out of housework.LOL (Blink you can email me for the docs…to publish if u all don’t know them).
But why wouldn’t mcso release those records to Houze?
Anyway…i’m rambling but one more thing about James. TMH is torn apart in blogs for not home-schooling him and not caring about him. But i’ll tell you one thing…if my teenage boy was failing in an urban, huge, college-prep and preppy school (Lincoln HS) and prolly teased cuz he liked to read and play an instrument and I cared deeply that he not fail….i’d send him to my stable parents in his old home town in an instant.
Could be she cared more for his success than for herself and his obvious ability to help her with two other kids. From what I heard he thrived in Roseburg…back in a small town with horses and people who loved him too.
OK…off my pedestal and chest.
Blink…there are many on many different forums that relentlessly attack, and/or try to “out” those who question MCSO, Skyline, and the peanut-munching hang-em high crowd. So thanks.
And Dede….well this is an end-run. Why claim it any other? Wagner is up next, I hope. Obviously no-comment-Underhill is not going to respond to his copy of the motion.
If the owner of the farm and the co-worker(s) from June 4 were deposed and answered the questions put forth to them, I don’t believe there would be a publicly available legal record or filing of that.
Does that sound right?
DY has never stated who the recipient of those emails was. Where are you seeing where he asked her specifically in an email if TH stated that she wanted to hurt Kyron?
B
_____
Rosenthal’s questions were seperate… he asked, “Did you know that she (Terri) was planning on harming Kyron before June 4, 2010?”.
He also asked, “Have you given any emails to any police agencies?” to which Dede responded, “No.”.
Dede’s previous attorney Chad Stavley states that she not only gave LE emails but she also gave them text messages. Did Dede lie under oath?
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/DeDe-Spicher-testifies-before-grand-jury-99252004-kyron-horman-missing-portland.html
Regarding confirmation that Dede was missing from her gardening job that morning, at least two individuals that were there with her have gone on record to say she was gone and did not answer her phone.
http://www.kgw.com/news/InvestigatorsSearchWhereDedeGardened-100231774.html
She could have been wandering the property and chose not to eat lunch or answer her phone, just take a peaceful break alone but it would be ironic to have that be the case during the exact time that Kyron is unaccounted for.
He never asked her the specific question i am referencing.
B
Is anyone else wondering about, or have mentioned the standout commonality of the last few abductions. I’m starting to follow a bit, or at least notice first and last media notices.
i might be naive as i’ve only followed Kyron, but the NJ, and the Colorado, and our Whitney in Gresham…all were abducted and murdered by very young men. Still so sad about Whitney,
T. Ruth says:
October 23, 2012 at 10:42 pm
BTW, unless Maxine has some other information we do not, she keeps saying Kyron never made it to class. As far as I know, it has never been said by LE whether he did or did not. Anyone heard for sure that he did not?
His jacket and backpack were there, how else would it have gotten there?
B
________
Maxine is reporting that Kyron never made it to class after Terri left at 8:45. The jacket and backpack were left in the classroom when the two first arrived and, according to witness Gina Zimmerman, took pictures in front of the science project sometime before 8:30.
I agree that LE has never confirmed whether or not Kyron made it back to class after 8:45. There is a lot of differing information about the time:
“He was seen by classmates during the science fair and throughout the morning”
http://www.kgw.com/news/Flier-for-missing-boy-Kyron-Horman-95864144.html
“There are reports that several teachers saw Kyron leave the school with his step mother. Help Find My Child reports that “Portland Public Schools spokesman Matt Shelby said two teachers saw Kyron with his mother and thought the two left school together.”"
http://voices.yahoo.com/kyron-horman-age-7-still-missing-step-moms-facts-allegedly-6244228.html?cat=17
“He was last seen that morning after attending a science fair at the school.”
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/kyron-richard-horman
I think LE simply doesn’t know exactly when Kyron was taken from the school which doesn’t really help the case or speak very well for Skyline staff.
Oh . . . my . . . gosh.
Stumbled upon a new facebook page re DS.
I had nooooooo idea . . . oiy.
mas says:
October 24, 2012 at 1:35 pm
I keep wondering “what if” LE made a public statement that Terri has not been named a prime suspect and followed up with, we are releasing a single piece of information such as Kyron was last seen at… with a person with a description of…. Please call if you have any tips….
_____
There it is in a nutshell.
Rose says:
October 24, 2012 at 6:33 pm
She outlined technical hard gardening work any
property owner should pay well to get a motivated knowledgeable person to do.
And, if I were DeDe & working without pay, I’d disappear a few hours at a time when I wanted
a break, & I’d cut my throat before I’d sit to eat even a free meal with such a skinflint
who’d pay an untrained immigrant but call me an internship,
________
Actually, Dede admitted that she did get paid for working the party and stated she couldn’t remember if she got paid for the intern gardening work then decided she wanted to plead the fifth on that question.
http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/DeDe-watermarked-1.pdf
Her answers regarding the gardening internship are on pages 3 and 4.
As of July 23, 2010 stated by Bruce McCain
“There’s been absolutely silence from this investigative team. Everything we’re learning about this is coming from Kaine and the Youngs,” he told “Good Morning America.”
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/kyron-horman-family-names-woman-eyed-boys-disapperance/story?id=11234220
The orders and depositions in this case are going to be used as merit for an onslaught of FOIA requests and I plan to be first in line.
All I need: Th ping study to include trajectory, and any unidentified pre-paid or “burner” phones identified in connection directly with her phone, and any identified pinging off at least one tower in tandem with hers (does not have to be simultaneous). For May 28 (or whatever provider cutoff date is) through June 11, 2010.
B
It’s LE choices and information control regarding an additional suspect/s that have so many questioning whether or not Terri was involved in Kyron’s disappearance thereby making Kaine and Desiree appear vindictive and ill advised. It burns my hide because Desiree should not have to go this route.
“There are things about this case that will surprise you.” WTH is that supposed to mean? I’m sure Desiree knows but LE has botched it to the point where she is stuck knowing some details without being able to find her son or justice. And we, who have fallen in love with this missing little boy, are left to wonder also.
In my heart I believe Terri had a hand in what happened to Kyron. I’m not ashamed to say that. She knows what went down that fateful day IMO and I pray the truth is revealed so this family can heal.
These parents are doing everything they can to find their child. I don’t blame them one iota and if it doesn’t work out for them, so be it. At least they tried.
Not sure if we ever heard from MaeBee again. Seems the affair could have changed everything in her mind. There is some insight in her original post, IMO. It’s hard to say if she had first hand knowledge of the electrical presentation, or was influenced by speculation.
MaeBee says:
July 20, 2010 at 4:59 pm
First of all, I am a friend of the family. The glasses were not Kyron’s. Also there is not a ransom that I am aware of. If you find any information please post it. That would be a new one.
Terri H. was not the last person to see Kyron alive. When she left the school with her baby girl, several did see her without Kyron. She waved to him as he started walking into his classroom. The first bell was at 9:00 a.m. so Kyron was not left alone in an empty school. And Terri didn’t abandon him at the school. It was close to the time that the kids had to get into their groups. I also know from my own experience, when a child has been going to this school all year, he knows the school very well and more than likely didn’t want mom to hang around. They like their independence and schools are supposed to be safe. Right? Children in my experience do not lie, especially little ones such as Tanner. There are more players in this case than people know. They are not going to tell anyone yet, who they are looking into. Terri is in Roseburg and it is good that she is out of the public’s eye for now. I believe in the Police and the other agencies that they are doing the best that they can. I want the correct person or persons arrested and for Kyron to be found. But I do not believe in tatics that will destroy someone’s life so they can use this person as a smoke screen. Terri H was told from the beginning that she wouldn’t be talking. She actually thought the police and FBI, etc. were her friends. She gave them everything that she could give. I know it is not good enough for some since they didn’t hear her speak but she is not allowed to speak now either. It isn’t her idea to keep quiet, she is under orders to not talk about this case to anyone. Maybe in the future, she will be able to say her piece. I am still wanting to know about Brian Pumala and his electrical presentation that Kyron was so excited about seeing. Does anyone have his information? A picture?
MaeBee says:
July 20, 2010 at 9:04 pm
I just listened to the radio show that blink was on. Did I hear you right that Terri admitted to an affair with Rudy Sanchez or only that she did know him because of the yard work? If she admitted to having a tryst with him, then it truly changes everything that I have been told by her. I need this to be clarifyed, just for my own peace of mind. Thank You.
I am told by sources that Terri was involved in an intimate relationship with Rudy Sanchez at some point. The extent of which, to my knowledge has not been verified.
MaeBee says:
July 21, 2010 at 12:01 am
Blink: Thank you so much. This clarifies a couple of things for me.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/07/14/kyron-horman-missing-and-endangered-landscaper-rudy-sanchez-knew-kyron/
Amys sister,
mas says:
October 24, 2012 at 1:35 pm
I keep wondering “what if” LE made a public statement that Terri has not been named a prime suspect and followed up with, we are releasing a single piece of information such as Kyron was last seen at… with a person with a description of…. Please call if you have any tips….
_____
There it is in a nutshell.
——
And
the Elephant in the living room is eating the nut.
The next question is why? Who stands to gain? Taxpayers be more apt to continue funding if they drag this out vs. calling it a cold case and admitting Skyline drove the eight ball into the Columbia river?
Why cause so much more pain if they have no real case?
Between the civil suit and the divorce case we now have two parents with cross purposes.
We have TH attorneys torn between protecting their client from a civil “end run” and a circumstantial criminal case, at best.
We have nobody calling out the school, or le, who for my money, has the most specific information that could likely progress this case. The school, which should have been designated a crime scene and as such Portland PD owned this case and by LE own admission is ground zero to his disappearance.
Sound like a plan, anyone?
I respect everyone’s advocacy REGARDLESS of where one falls on the TH guilt fence, and most are sitting directly on it like a teeter- totter- without prejudice I might add.
And to that end, REGARDLESS of opinion of guilt, it should disturb every citizen that if what I am saying is true, that means NOBODY is doing proper diligence in effecting this case by doing nothing about it.
Set aside bias. Set aside the need to be right.
With much respect and compassion for Kyron’s parents and family the best interests of the child are not your absolute right- they are his. No parent has the right to “bargain them away” and in a sense if we are not tunneling under every fort- they are. Had DY included Skyline in her suit, I might have not included her in that statement.
As a strategy, perhaps they will be added following someone’s deposition at which time I will loudly exclaim “Now thats what I’m talkin’ bout”!
And lest anyone think I am a TH sympothizer- shut it. My stand on her is abundantly clear, with the new caveats that she needs to run her own show if she is not, and take advantage of the very public opportunities to take her life back coming her way. Her attorneys are patterned to defend her from any charges she might face, I submit their job right now is to use the venues before them to insure she is not- zealously. As much as it KILLS me to say it, study the pages of the high profile humps with JD’s we all know.
Unless your client has complicity, which if you don’t come out swinging people will believe by default, and that includes the ones that are fence of the month club.
If y’all curl up like pillbugs at yet another one of these things while the only “witness” to the only carabiner holding the end of the world over your clients red-head is out adding new clients wearing his immunity cape- then you are the wrong counsel for this woman and she should fire your azzez.
If you do not ask the person with the answer to a question you seek, how the eff do you expect to get the truth?
Looks like it is time for my quarterly rant in this case, sorry, but not sorry, this little boy out there haunts me and I work for him.
B-
I completely forgot about when LE wanted all the video footage from all media outlets regarding witnesses who said they saw Kyron. KATU had TK and Kim Holm. Imagine an agency that operates with discretion, when it wants to, blowing the horn about this. Who were they trying to rattle?
http://www.katu.com/home/video/98647489.html
July 17th 2010
Philosophy of BOC summed up for me by Zeus, a BOC poster:
Like we say on here-it’s all in until it’s out. I’m still playing by that.
Yep- to my knowledge there is not an investigative strategy that works through inclusion v exclusion.
B
translation? Does the “witness” with new clients & an immunity cape have a landscaping bus?
looking at resumes & pics recently (immature & flip, I know) , I had an opinion about a JD hump
and your verbiage is far better than my “empty suit.”
@vs. Can’t do an in vitro without the male giving his part while eggs are retrieved.
You can enhance eggs on a cycle without in vitro. You can use a sperm donor. Leaving
it to duping your husband to bed the day you ovulate is insane. Maybe they want to show she was
insane even then.
I feel you only ask questions in depo you know the answer to.
LE interviewing of DeDe perhaps included her recounting Terri’s efforts to get pregnant, folk remedies or something.
But how did Devlin get that info?
I don’t think any Dr would prescribe, legally, egg multiplying meds for a married lady without talking to
them as a couple. To me, question was relevant only to her state of mind that she felt she needed a child
to cement a marriage made rocky by her stepson. Or that she was jealous he was another woman’s.
Excellent point about Terri changed his name in 09 and not to Horman. Choice of Moulton says a lot. If she wanted a
“competitive” son, or he and Kaine got along, she’d have made it Horman. What was the trigger with Ecker?
Was Ecker demanding to see him after paying so long?
Why did they cut James off from Ecker anyway originally and preclude visitation? He could’ve gone to Court, stopped payments. That he didn’t–well did they have some leverage over him?
With respect, Blink, wrt Terri “running her own show,”
the public facts about her life since high school
show she lacks the pragmatic judgment and abstract thinking skills to do so.
Very possible, or she is scared witless and deferring. I would not advocate her NOT having representation, but that fit is based on expectation, need and skill.
B
either she’s too easily led, or she lacks moral insight as well
imo.
@wpg. Why would there be a new FB dump
of DeDe material the week post her depo after waiting 2.5 years?
Link possible?
I have more diligence to do, but through the help of a contributing editor to BOC, I would say we have a preliminary ID on the author.
B
nevermind, I just saw that Jens Amundsen is an alias
looking up one of those humps’ role modelling how to do it, not an empty suit,
I found the following.
Interesting there is now, thanks to settlement, no Supr Crt
controlling precedent on prosecutorial “framing” (or just ignoring,
or suppressing and failing to disclose, another suspect) at the
pre- indictment phase of investigation.
http://m.npr.org/story/120069519?storyId=120069519
2009 Supr Ct case – Q was
are prosecutors immune for “framing” pre- indictment?
unreal. Supr Crt dropped case after oral argument when prosecutors settled for $12 million.
(Note: Obama Admin prominently supported pre-indictment prosecutors’ immunity.)
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/pottawattamiesettlement.pdf
GSpence, moving on, next week, mounts a Fed civil rites case against the Town
(holding Town culpable for prosecutors’ actions)
http://www.spencelawyers.com/attorneys/partners/gerry-l-spence/
Underhill, take heed, and Houze, go get a collegial agreement asap cause you know
he previously affiliated with ER on a case.!
@wpg. I found, 4th hit on google,
Anti DeDe Spicher FB page. What’s new.
@Blink. Re:
” If you do not ask the person with the answer to a question you seek, how the eff do you expect to get the truth?”
Is “the person” Terri, or the player with immunity?
For me, you would start with the folks that had first hand knowledge of the events at ground zero.
B
@ Blink – I am always happy to see your “rants”. Of course #1 is finding Kyron.
I am also worried, though, for other potential victims of whoever removed Kyron from that school. Between my husby and I, we have 18 nieces and nephews, I worry about them, and knowing that this person may be walking around carefree and possibly ready to strike again – and our LE turning the other way (if that is what is happening) terrifies me, frankly.
This is a public safety matter and no one of authority out here is talking about it (to my knowledge) W.T.F.?
mas says:
October 24, 2012 at 1:35 pm
I keep wondering “what if” LE made a public statement that Terri has not been named a prime suspect and followed up with, we are releasing a single piece of information such as Kyron was last seen at… with a person with a description of…. Please call if you have any tips….
*************
That’s a very good question….why don’t they? After all, LE has NEVER called Terri a suspect (let alone a prime one). So why are they so quiet about Judge Kantor’s description? Why don’t they come forward now and say “We have never considered Terri Horman our prime suspect.”
Well, the answer is because she is and always has been since day 1 and Terri and her attorneys know it. Heck, we all know it. However, she is not their only suspect, per Sheriff Staton himself there’s been 60 POI’s in this case, and even Kaine Horman has said within the past year that he knows LE is looking at others, but he doesn’t know who.
Wouldn’t it be nice to know who the other POI’s are in this case? Wouldn’t it be nice to have a description of SZ? Why isn’t Desiree Young’s attorney interested in those answers? Something is being hidden by LE in this case and I don’t know why, but that’s how I feel, and it’s certainly not the fact that Terri is under their microscope. What are we missing? I haven’t followed many cases, but the few I have LE is much, much more publicly open. What other cases have presented where LE was so hush-hush? Staton once said there were so many layers to this investigation he couldn’t speak to them all, or some such phrase. What layers? The only reason I can think of for LE not to release a description of SZ is because doing so would/could cause harm to someone else, possibly a child or children. JMO, but I think they are playing a waiting game. Waiting for whomever SZ is, to do something stupid.
If PPS was so sure Terri did it, why did they come out with brand new security measures? Why did they change the way contracted help would be interviewed and the hours they are allowed to work on school property? Are they afraid of Terri striking again? I don’t think so.
You guys mostly all follow more cases than I, what if any end result occurred in other cases when LE was this quiet? What reasons would there be for not releasing a description of SZ?
Some questions that seem to be missing from Rosenthal/Devlin’s depositon of Dede:
1. Have you ever been to Skyline Elementary?
2. Were you there on June 4, 2010?
3. Do you know a gardener who uses the name Rudy Sanchez?
4. Do you know anyone working for RS Landscape Maintenance?
5. Have you ever worked for RS Landscape Maintenance?
6. Do you know David A. Durham?
(unless I missed this, I don’t see this there either):
7. What time did you leave your gardening job on June 4, 2010?
Now unless I missed those, this tells me a few of things. #1 Rosenthal/Devlin do not think Dede Spicher was involved in Kyron’s disappearance and probably have knowledge of such. #2 This deposition served one purpose and one purpose only, to investigate and expose Terri Horman’s character. #3 To investigate and expose Dede Spicher’s character, because she has been one of only a few people who have publicly supported Terri Horman, IOW to make her look not credible. #4 To determine whether or not Dede Spicher knew Kaine Horman.
AMOO
@Blink. Yeah, the school duty to supervise, under oath.
This is an odd url, as I read the description script, for claims to be an Anti DeDe Spicher FB page:
http://m.facebook.com/ArrestTerriMoultonHormanTODAY?id=102091343258214&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FArrestTerriMoultonHormanTODAY&_rdr#!/story.php?story_fbid=214109622056385&id=102091343258214&refid=17
At the same time, as I plow thru this, it seems almost proDeDe in subposts.
Maybe I ‘m too naive or don’t understand.
I just have to applaud the posters on here. I came here, read here and sided with the pitchforkers for quite some time. I was sure that TH was guilty. Sure. No fence sitting for me. I now am WAY less sure, some might call me a fence sitter. Not because I have ever been accused of being wishy washy, or because I tend to follow (uh, you’ve clearly never met me) but because the critical thinking skills other posters have displayed. The eloquent way people here put things, and the clarity with which each of you write (especially Malty, I love the *almost* prose). I feel like I’ve learned A LOT from everyone here, and I thank each of you for causing a thinking shift in me.
vw says:
i might be naive as i’ve only followed Kyron, but the NJ, and the Colorado, and our Whitney in Gresham…all were abducted and murdered by very young men. Still so sad about Whitney,
**********************************************************************
I adore that you called her “our” Whitney. I’m local to this story and this young woman and her tragic story has caused me many moments of pause in the past weeks. I’ve always considered myself to be pretty “safe.” I walk with a purpose, I pay attention to my surroundings, I lock my car doors . . . I’m no physical slouch at 5’9, but I think this hit home with me at many levels. I’m not nearly as safe as I thought I was. It makes me sad. I’m sad that our community lost someone so sunny.
Snips from Blink:
“No parent has the right to “bargain them away” and in a sense if we are not tunneling under every fort- they are.
this little boy out there haunts me and I work for him.”
B
————-
As a Court Appointed Special Advocate (CASA or guardian ad litem) your comments gave me pause. CASA’s are trained citizens who are appointed by a judge to watch over, advocate, and represent the best interest of children in court. We make sure the child doesn’t get lost in the overburdened legal and social service system.
As I read your comments above, I wondered how different things may go if every “missing” child was assigned a guardian ad litem. Sometimes I feel that ego (LE), personal agenda (Kaine’s divorce/custody) and emotions (Desiree) overshadow Kyron’s voice. Kyron is out there someone should be advocating for HIM!
I know… in a perfect world.
Given your profession, it should. It is likely contained in many statutes relating to custody, and relative support and incorporations into property settlement agreements for those divorcing with kids.
You are picking up what I have been putting down for almost 4 years. A missing child should be appointed a GAL, period.
B
For me, you would start with the folks that had first hand knowledge of the events at ground zero.
B
Me too. I’ve wondered about this since the day we got the call (to all parents of the district). When K was marked absent is, to me, a crucial key. First, it took the school days to establish the time, when a quick call or login to ESIS by the secretary, keefer, the super could have established and broadcasted it as 10 am the first day. Second, given Tanner’s and other’s acccounts, TMH left the school and left Kyron there and has a receipt for 9:07. Third, when the re-grouping occured, the teacher really had the organization, the wherewithal to go to her computer, mark the absence, and return to all the groups and volunteers to let them go? Really? At the same time a volunteer was telling her that she was missing Kyron? Before she went to the bathroom to check on him as she’d claimed she would do? No wonder the files went missing.
And BTW, esis is a pretty well-established school-wide electronic system. Would be interesting to find out if any other school had the files go missing that morning. If not …. hmmmm.
Hope someone is asking that question to keefer, or carol, the super.
Oh. One more thing. If 10am is time by which the teachers must put in the attendance and if Kyron was not marked absent by that time, and not located, then school culpability increases. Backpack etc…vs…. dr appointment…..just way too hinky here …. that the volunteer and Tanner noticed a problem but the teacher didn’t. How long does a dr. appointment last, anyway? And she had no questions asked about the Talent show non-show?
Well, she’s already got immunity (and tenure by now). LIke you, blink, I hope they interview her for some real answers. She has nothing to lose and maybe a little boy to find.
I think attendance should’ve gone in at second bell prior to groups forming.
school depos need to get at 1) what was school policy? 2) what were majority of teacher’s
practice? 3) what was Porter’s ordinary practice? 4) what did Porter do that day?
vw says:
October 26, 2012 at 2:57 pm
October 26, 2012 at 3:12 pm
Yep, very weird, no mention of when Kyron was marked absent for what was it almost a week? All reports said “it is not clear when Kyron was marked absent”. Why in the heck wasn’t it clear? Ridiculous. Absentee records are kept for financial purposes are they not? If something like that disappeared that morning, someone disappeared it on purpose. Would Terri Horman have been able to log on to those computers just because she was a volunteer? Would she know Porter’s password and how to purge documents? Anyway, since he wasn’t marked absent until 10:00 am it couldn’t have been Terri, unless she was there after 10:00 a.m. right? JMO And the talent show, why didn’t someone notice he was gone then when they new darn well from the try-outs the day before, he was supposed to be there.
It also ticks me off that we never heard so much as a we’re sorry Kyron went missing from Skyline. That school immediately tried (and succeeded at some levels) of brushing the whole thing under the rug. They did nothing but distance themselves from Kyron as soon as they could.
@TRuth. re yr last post.
Whoo Hoo. brilliant 3 conclusions.
Keep in mind, Devlin will likely only ask what he
has a source as to know the answer.
January says:
October 26, 2012 at 2:47 pm
…As I read your comments above, I wondered how different things may go if every “missing” child was assigned a guardian ad litem. Sometimes I feel that ego (LE), personal agenda (Kaine’s divorce/custody) and emotions (Desiree) overshadow Kyron’s voice. Kyron is out there someone should be advocating for HIM!
_____
January, thank you for the work that you do. I wonder, were you the parent of Kyron what would you do in an effort to advocate for him? I ask with respect because I have thought about this over and over and I feel Desiree’s, and Kaine’s to a lesser extent, hands have been tied by the failed investigation. What could she do differently to advocate for her son?
***********
You are picking up what I have been putting down for almost 4 years. A missing child should be appointed a GAL, period.
B
____
So agree with this. During an investigation or during any proceeding litigation only? I’m trying to imagine how a GAL would be used outside of court in a missing persons case.
I don’t think that scenario is possible, it is going to have ride the statute for the child’s protection as well of that of the CASA or GAL. In the case of a missing child the abuser or offender is unknown, and the childs rights as a function of statute are to be protected in their best interest.
B
VW says:
And BTW, esis is a pretty well-established school-wide electronic system. Would be interesting to find out if any other school had the files go missing that morning. If not …. hmmmm
___
Great question.
We still don’t know if Terri told the teacher she was going to a dr. appointment with Kyron. If Terri did say that it would answer many of our questions. If she didn’t say that then it is more clear where much of the culpability lies.
VW says:
And
the Elephant in the living room is eating the nut.
The next question is why? Who stands to gain? Taxpayers be more apt to continue funding if they drag this out vs. calling it a cold case and admitting Skyline drove the eight ball into the Columbia river?
Why cause so much more pain if they have no real case?
_____
VW, I didn’t realize you were local. It’s good to get your insights.
I’m not sure taxpayers are overly affected either way at this point. The criminal case seems to be at a standstill and the current civil cases are not being funded by taxpayers.
If we ask Desiree who stands to gain her answer might be Kyron, her son.
The moment they lost David Anthony Durham IMO it became a cold case. Do you believe there is a link with him and Kyron’s disappearance?
The Skyline issue needs to be addressed. I am hoping Blink’s idea that maybe Desiree still plans to pull that Skyline rabbit out of the hat in her civil case is a possibility. If so I’m sure there are legal protections for the school in place which have kept her attorney up at night.
@Blink. imo lack of gal is perhaps because the only legal case is a divorce case, not an abuse/neglect nor
criminal case. In the last month I went to a ceu family law: 3 judge panel agreed no gal
in divorce cases. imo enough for their decisions for each parent
to have an attorney (unless one side repr is unstable with in & out repr),
This was a firm fixed opinion of 3 County judges. On the other hand,
acknowledged in a same-State rural county
to West, judges use as a functional custody evaluator for bench. Urban Cty judges don’t like
that role usurption here. I think key is this is a divorce matter
I agree on perhaps precedent, but I submit that if a child of 7 years is missing, it becomes the suspicion of abuse by an unknown. The kid has rights, and the court has administrative rights to enforce it. As january said, in a perfect world..
That said, in the Anthony case, it absolutely would have had a different outcome, period.
B
So it sounds like State legislators need to
pass a State statute requiring a missing child is deemed
to be abused after they are missing for x days and a GAL be
appointed in x kind of case by a District Court, but under what cause of action?
Many abuse/neglect cases are not Court involved.
I agree with yr point, just trying to see how States get there. In OR a mandatory gal
statute might’ve been more fruitful than “Aaron’s law” for Kyron.
@vw, Can you tell us what activities “the past week” (meaning prior to the Sunset Church volunteer clean up/landscaping that Keefer was referring? We know on Friday the 4th was the SF and Talent Show, but wouldn’t he been referencing the last full week of May? What was going on at Skyline?
snip>
Ben Keefer, principal of Skyline Elementary School, where volunteers did landscaping projects, painted, cleaned out an underutilized storage area, broke apart unwieldy items for the trash and installed new benches, said this in his weekly bulletin:
“There is no doubt that this past week was one full of activity, but nothing in recent memory approaches what happened on Sunday. We were sponsored by Sunset Presbyterian for a volunteer event that was truly amazing. Over 100 volunteers from the church combined with many Skyline families to work a miracle of sorts on our school.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/north-of-26/index.ssf/2010/05/sunset_presbyterian_volunteers_number_1600_for_wide-reaching_sunday_cleanup.html
As I read the anti Dede spicher site of Toms words from her
I don’t see why Dede took the 5 th
If she said the stuff he claims
I see nothing
Except who knows what Tom really heard
If anything