Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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eeeeeuw. Well, now, THAT was creepy.
Do you suppose that Jens guy reads here, too? I was looking at that stuff he wrote – the free book with Kyron’s name changed that was linked yesterday – and at that time, I clicked over into his Twitter to see what the fuss was all about.
I just got an email with that creepy eyeball and it said that Jens-Whoever is now following you.
eeeeuw. Big time creepy. I might just disable my Twitter account. Creepy eyeball. Not a very good writer either. I got bored after 1-2 pages. I’m going to have nightmares for sure, seeing that creepy eyeball. Guess I’ll have to delete and delete the deletes. eeeuw….running to go hide my head under my pillow…..
just block it silly, lol
B
@Blink. So this sounds legislatively simple in States and uncontroversial.
If a minor is missing for x days, and LE has not classified as a runaway or custodial dispute
(the opposite of Aaron’s law), then the State DSS is mandated to
file a Court action classifying as endangered and appoint a GAL to represent the
child’s interests in all criminal and civil causes of action. Or just make it apply to any child under 13.
Sounds like something for child advocacy nonprofits to pursue. Fits one of Childrens Legal Defense Fund goals
We don’t know Jens is a guy.
I suppose one could ask that
new publisher who they represent?
I checked for any Amundsen book when I was at
2 bookstores yesterday looking
for the latest New Yorker, one a chain Books a
Million and one high class independent.
Not on the shelf.
I will, B. LOL.
Super CREEP-O…..
(He’s prolly still roaming around inside my computer somewhere … could even pop out again on Halloween …) spooooooky LOL
@ Redrose
I am not going waste time looking at that book
Now for sure
I already wasted time on that anti DeDe site
Eyeballs Wow what next
@VW
Another local
I shed tears over our Whitney
Also
So who is next to testify
I am waiting for Some one from the school staff
After reading the author’s twitter, I concur with blogger-at-another-site’s id.
Like Jason, he states he is Court-involved in the child welfare system,
appointed by judges. opposed to certain nations’ social & political activities,
particularly N Korea, but it’s not clear if it’s their oligarchs or cold warriors or
monetary policies (EU) that he dislikes. His tweets about TMH & DDS
& an mcso detective are viputerative.
Based on tweets alone, he might be on Jason’s list imo. Theyspeak for themselves.
which site? Are you saying the id is JW?
B
By mere googling Jens Amundsen, I stumbled on this person’s blog. Last entry on this url id’s him as Ernest Edsel based on a picture. I considered this a “watercooler” blog you wouldn’t want tge url
of.
http://missingpieceofthepuzzle.blogspot.com/2012_02_01_archive.html?m=1
Further discussed by same person midway down, here:
http://missingpieceofthepuzzle.blogspot.com/2012/03/kyron-hormans-case-sad-commentary-on.html?m=1
I posted here did not think a picture id a secure means to id.
However I see after reading Amundsen’s twitter back to Feb 2011, he is very preoccupied with some “nations,” and very against certain actions of civil authorities in some nations (including Det Kafvre). That comports with E Edsel’s nonprofit entity in Vancouver WA (National…
you can look it up). There is a fit of interests. Moreover Edsel presents himself as a child advocate, a Court appointed attorney in certain child abuse/neglect cases, an interest of Jason’s though he is not an attorney. If you read all the Amundsen twitter entries (which I don’t recommend), you will see why I said he could be placed on the same type of list you suggested for Jason. At least TMH & DDS & Det. Kafave might want him there.
clarification: Edsel is a licensed attorney who practices in WA at least & is licensed in TX.
Jason as we know is not an attorney but some type of certified Court volunteer.
@Malty. We’ll only hear about it if staff take 5th & there’s
a motion to compel, dont you think?
@Malty says:
October 27, 2012 at 4:35 am
@VW
Another local
I shed tears over our Whitney
Also
————————————————————
Another local. Senseless crime…I have no words.
this edsel?
http://wikibin (dot) org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=27846
see Donors http://en.m.wikipedia (dot) org/wiki/Returned_Treasures_Program
http://www.linkedin (dot) com/in/ernestmedsel
all a puzzle within a puzzle
https://mobile.twitter (dot) com/ErnestMEdsel1/tweets
except the 2 have similar take on aspects of EU
picture is same as guy who ran for judge in Vancouver 2008 & lost against egregious incumbant Intemperate.
this twitter site has Mormon handle followers, & follows. Says nothing about beliefs. may alert to common concerns with Cruz.
he once lived in Midvale UT
http://www.lookupanyone (dot) com/namelistings/ernest-edsel.html?recordid=06RVHES6BVW
i don’t understand this. but Edsel was plaintiff & it was dismissed with prejudice
http://www.plainsite (dot) org/flashlight/case.html?id=444219
http://businessprofiles (dot ) com/details/zeiss-institute-inc/OR-716314-86
——————–
@Blink. Ye Gads!
This appears to be same person as all of above:
http://usjudicialwatch (dot) wordpress.com/article/ernest-edsel-3pr2cqx1evbd1-2/
If so, and he is aka Jens Amundsen, no wonder he zealously wards off all who id the
pseudonym based on those Jens tweets alone. Has Federalist hopes for the bench. If aka, would not want Amundsen tweets re EU & certain nations and in re TMH, DDS, and Det Kafvre among others to see light of day.
http://www.amazon.com/Jens-Amundsen/e/B006C2D8WM
an attorney
@ Rose
Wow I was going just ignore this book
But you are getting my interest
So how does his fiction book end
Kyron alive or ………
Ok I was just as SM and saw Bradi’s post about the jeep in the 2 pictures. I do not want anyone to think I read that and took credit by posting here…just a co inky dink we pointed out the same thing.
lol, since I know you both.. never entered my mind Ode.
B
This is probably dumb question, but if Kyron’s own parents won’t hold the school responsible, is there a judicial way that someone else, ie. say a Children’s Services State office file a case against the Skyline school district for their part in losing a student? Or could CSA just file a complaint against Skyline School or another agency? Or can LE be taken to task for their lack of investigate prowness where the school is concernd?
I’m eliminating the parents (all of them) from my question because they are too busy playing “pin the tail on the donkey”.
JMO, but I don’t think Jens-Amundsen is the Washington attorney Ernest M. Edsel. I was looking at some of Jens Amundsen’s entries on the anti-Terri & BKH type FB’s, and this guy doesn’t sound like an attorney. Let alone someone who would be running for the position of Judge. I agree the picture/ID mountain climber thing ain’t necessarily so. Someone could be using the picture. From what I’ve heard of the book (haven’t read it), the person apparently doesn’t write well either. OTOH, who knows? Whackos are born every day.
Well, shows what I know, I guess it is him.
Remember when Kaine said this:
Kaine continues, “So it was every other weekend and the holidays and if something comes up like ‘Hey, I’d really like to have him for Thanksgiving because the relatives are coming from Norway then we sit down and figure it out.”
http://www.justicequest.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59771&page=3
*********
Weird coincidences, just keep coming along.
@Rose
Your research is good
Most links come up
I suppose it was just a matter of time that someone would write a book
As I said so many people think this case is solved
And the step monster did it
And have moved on
I have no intention. On reading his book
Thanks for your research
I to wonder who will profit from this book
Malty says:
October 27, 2012 at 5:43 pm
@ Rose
Wow I was going just ignore this book
But you are getting my interest
So how does his fiction book end
Kyron alive or ………
Me too, that is freaking creepy, gives me the jeebies. Rose, you are a super sleuth, and braver than I.
@rose
I agree that elementary teachers should take and post attendance at the second, tardy bell. In that case it would have been 8:45. Just because you have a volunteer led activity for another hour or so does not mean you are not responsible for overseeing and keeping track of those students. The 10am “marking” of Kyron is the “official” deadline in elementary schools.
See: http://www.pps.k12.or.us/files/admin-connection/PPS_Attendance_HB_12-13.pdf (Page 4)
That is why Matt finally announced that he “…was marked” absent at 10am. Notice the passive voice. The media probably interpreted this time as the time K. Porter marked Kyron absent.
Someone mentioned funding for students. That is true. The state not only allots funding dependent on the number and type of students enrolled, but on the average daily attendance. At least it was so in my districts.
But money aside, now the teachers are being held more accountable for getting that attendance in by 10am because now the auto-dialing to parents is obligatory. Notice that PPS never stated that they were not able to enlist the assurance of auto-dialing, but that they “chose” not to and excused themselves
by saying that they didn’t have a problem with “truency”. Well…none of the west hills elementary schools have problems with truency. So…no excuse there.
True neglect at best. Kids were not being watched over. Someone knew that.
What really bothers me is that the school didn’t apologize, even. But some parents know they were at fault as Skyline attendance continues to decline.
I was truly amazed, as I watched Keefer’s weekly letters home over the following year. Never a mention of Kyron. Not one word. And when Kaine and his group landscaped the building on Kyron’s first anniversary gone….not a word the next weeks in appreciation of that group. Didn’t even mention Kyron.
Of course in May, of 2010, he did mention the efforts of the Pres. church sprucing up the school. That was not necessariy a comment in the school newspaper, but in response to a media interview.
It makes me think that Eagle on Olive is correct. That lawyers have given the gag order to all staff at Skyline. And if they are deposed, and I can’t imagine Wagner wouldn’t, they will, too, plead the 5th.
I hope it happens. I would love to find out the answers to who was really in charge from 8:45am. The last press release from MCSO, in June, 2011, regarding Kyron and the disbanding of the task force, says Kyron “…was last seen in front of his classroom’s doorway” It does not state when, or by whom..
Since all media and emails by TMH state that she left him walking toward his classroom, and her truck was the other way….just points to her being gone when he got to that doorway. Who saw him….then?
@lyla
@malty
When the news came on that Whitney’s body was found, my whole family watched. I don’t know why she affected me so much, but I really sobbed. I used to teach school there and she reminded me of some former students. Kyron was just so close to us in proximity. They both just seem so pure and good and it just seems so unfair.
Not that other cases don’t sadden and stun me. But…these two are just so close to home. I sent my daughter to a party on Sauvie Island tonight. And you betcha, I’m keeping tabs even though parents are chaperoning.
vw says:
October 27, 2012 at 10:03 pm
“It makes me think that Eagle on Olive is correct.”
vw,
Who exactly is “Eagle on Olive”?
TIA.
batten the hatches, Blink
http://abcnews.go.com/US/hurricane-sandy-jersey-prepares-10-day-power-outages/story?id=17579827
Crikey Rose- I know.
o/t and way pettromonial (my new word- means petty and matrimonial)-
During the hurricane where for the first time in my life they shut down the outer boroughs of the city, Mr. Blink texts me from a meeting and says.. “Jenny (admin) just told me that she went to pick up water at Maccaffertys and they were sold out- maybe you could go to the store and so on..
Then my Texan friend tells me- you know, I have been in these sorts of storms before, without power for ten days, you need to take this seriously.
So… I head to the store, get 2 carts, and proceed directly to the end caps of fill them with cases of water and jug water- bottom and top. As I was precariously heading to check out, people were now coming in droves and eyeing me like “did that woman just take all the water in the Universe and should we follow her home?” I had 2 different people offer me over $20 case for the water.
(NOTE: THIS NEVER HAPPENS HERE, MILD POWER OUTAGES BUT NOT COASTAL- IT WAS LIKE O- IT CANNOT BE ARMEGEDON, I HAVE NAILS TODAY)
anyhoo- while hubs is off pushing pencils (respectfully and appreciatively) I wire the house with the generator, establish charging zones for batteries with bins for emergency supplies, time capsule, kidney beans and flashlight, the whole 9.
Never needed a lick of it.
Last year, almost a year to the day, he was traveling on business and we had that Halloween Noreaster, where I had to do all of the above again, but hump the generator out of the garage myself and shovel the driveway 4 x by myself. In fairness, my parents begged me to come stay there for the weekend but I am a go down with the ship kinda girl and I called my Daddy and let him listen to me start the generator for a laugh. I admit I called Mr. B voice mail and recorded a message of 3 minutes of the generator
He called back and said, I could not hear your message, the generator was running. Meh.
SOOOO. Mr. B is home today, and takes my emergency checklist and does all of the above.
This is how I know we will get pummeled and he will save the day, with my disaster preparedness plan 3.0
But seriously folks, plan for the worst, and hope for the best and stay safe.
B
@truth
Ridiculous. Absentee records are kept for financial purposes are they not? If something like that disappeared that morning, someone disappeared it on purpose. Would Terri Horman have been able to log on to those computers just because she was a volunteer? …
It also ticks me off that we never heard so much as a we’re sorry Kyron went missing from Skyline. That school immediately tried (and succeeded at some levels) of brushing the whole thing under the rug. They did nothing but distance themselves from Kyron as soon as they could.
***********
I kinda adressed these questions in the above post to rose. But in regards to the password. Most teachers keep that password pretty close. Unless TMH had been grading papers for her and recording them. Most teachers will not let others do that, though.
Still, don’t think it was TMH that LE was concerned about when they expressed chagrin at the records gone missing. It was they had “finally” (with a boost from new Feds?) gotten to looking at some of the other POIs. Prolly in order to prove in court that they had truly ruled out anybody-but-TMH.
What does that say about the investigation? Didn’t hunt for a perp the first day. Didn’t call out an amber alert which would have least alterted other states and borders right away to what he looked like. Didn’t enlist the public’s help….even discouraged the public from learning the meanest details.
Albeit, TMH (hearing-impaired, ADD, emotionally unable to express herself well or whatever) was not acting like a grieved momma to many. Myself included those first 3 weeks.
But here’s the thing. Skyline parents were panicked. All PPS parents were panicked, watching the news closely for a “perp” being caught. My youngest was in 6th grade.
When I got the news that “pings” were not matching, then the flyers came up…..I was so relieved. Parents did it. PPS is safe. My children are safe in PPS, the largest district in the state.
What if TMH passed the poly? And LE didn”t have a clew and everyone knew it?
What a horror….children disappearing from out schools and LE has no idea, not one real lead.
@wpg
Eagle for freedom. A poster that comment, mostly, on the Kyron case articles. Has been relentless in keeping the word out that Skyline lost Kyron and MCSO still need to search for him. He/she suggests she’s in the legal field and from Medford. Takes a lot of heat from the “Anti-TMH” facebook page group but doesn’t seem to interact much with them. Sometimes her/his comments on Oregon legal aspects of this case are spot-on, but not always.
What does “TIA” mean?
thanks in advance.
B
Eagelforfreedom that is the only one I read at OLive
I need to pull up the posts again
Are they still claiming Skyline lost Kyron
You know what I think??
I think — aren’t there hundreds of tips about Kyron that came to LE in the first week or so?
I think LE should release that list of tips to the Blink list and let some of the excellent researchers here track them down and sort them out.
Maybe here the answer about Kyron would be more apparent, could be found, and could then be sent back to LE with recommendations on following through.
MOO
http://connect.oregonlive.com/user/EagleforFreedom/index.html
If you go to that link above, you’ll find ALL of the OR Live comments Eagle has made.
You can do it for any of the posters, even the weirdos. A long time ago, before I figured out how to do this, somebody wrote that they knew “certain things” and made it sound like they really did, but I never looked to see what other comments they made. Plus I don’t remember the name. But was one of the kooks/weirdos who write.
By the way, some of those OR Live posters are really rude to each other. *sigh* The down side of anonymity…..
Okay, deep breath, here goes.
I have come to the conclusion that I believe Kyron’s abduction was based on issues associated with KH.
His personal life has been portrayed in what limited reports and stories we’ve seen as skipping out emotionally on womeon quickly after they have a child. He had not wanted a child with TH and stated he did not want them to have kids. I’m sure he loves Little K today, but he did not go into a second marriage intending to be a father again.
He has international contacts.
He has a job with an extremely high-profile corporation with offices all over the world.
He had conflict in a young second marriage almost from the get go, with his random comments about “she was spending all my money” (or words to that effect), reportedly having every major asset in his name (house and “gift” car), etc. I write this information based only on what I have read about him, except nothing from weirdo websites.
He has changed his story in subtle ways on many topics, making contradictory statements far more than once.
LE has not backed up a single thing he has said in public with any of their own public statements.
DY made a very public break from working with him as a parent “team.”
His behavior in public, for me, sets my radar off. I cannot put my finger on it. None of the other parents have affected me this way.
I am considering that DDS’s use of the 5th amendment in her deposition speaks more to her lawyer’s advice to “shaddup” about anything related to the existing and previous criminal investigation work accomplished or attempted so far. She was after all once trumped as a suspicious person associated with TH and thus questioned by LE in 2010.
I am considering that with all of the above running through my head, a man who seemed to take steps in a very organized fashion to have full control over family finances, assignment of chores, determination of the mother’s role in the household, etc., and who — two times — saw a marriage go south upon the pregnancy of his spouse — I cannot shake my misgivings about him.
I believe then that someone took Kyron not due to TH or her actions or lack of actions but due to something associated — in a negative way and with a very direct connection to KH.
After nearly two and 1/2 years, with no one “cracking” in this case, and no bombshells revealed, and utter silence from Roseburg (which I totally get), and the bios not working side by side for such a long time, and with the very real possibility that DY’s advisor(s), whoever that person or persons are, steering her to fish for information via the civil lawsuit, and LE apparently refusing to even think that sharing more information would produce good leads, I’m drawn not to being right, but to no longer thinking up reasons why TH might be guilty. I believe she knows something — and that it is about KH. I now also suspect that DDS knows something — and that it is about KH.
In my 53 years I have learned that when something knocks around in my head and won’t stop making noise, I generally have to act on it.
So, here I am, officially announcing that I think, like that movie title “Something about Mary,” there is something about KH. About his social circle, his work network, and very very possibly, people in his personal life he has emotionally hurt or insulted or in some fashion, pissed off.
I cannot listen to KH any more as a source of information about this case. No one has backed up what he has said so far in any official capacity.
Missing child cases bring out the hottest angers and other reactions we have. I see none of that “hot” in KH.
I think he has knowledge of “things we wish we didn’t know about,” and that takes me back to Staton’s words. I think KH is hiding something, and that something is all about his son, and him, and his life, and not so much about TH at all.
With the MFH “plot” not even producing an arrest, after all this time, I also sense in my gut that it was a bogus accusation/story from whoever decided to unleash it.
There is the custody stress. There is the Family Court drama where a child visitation issue was used to stop a woman who had not been arrested for a damned thing and had not been charged with any crime and about whom LE had nothing to say at that time in that courtroom, from seeing her own daughter.
There is the absolute lack of ANY evidence about what happened to Kyron.
There is also this — fishy to me for all this time: The weeks immediately following Kyron’s abduction. We are asked to believe, by those who want TH to be THE prime suspect, that a plotting, scheming woman capable of carrying out the perfect child abduction and possible child murder was living in a home packed with an ex-wife, ex-wife’s new husband, and law enforcement, and was not arrested in that time because nothing about what she did or said merited arrest. In that time period, I cannot reconcile a brilliant strategic thinker who can disappear a child, and the reported caricature from KH and DY and TY of a blathering, frazzled, ranting TH who announced that she had failed her own poly and dithered about her hair color. I cannot put that lady in the same picture as an evil stepmother who has successfully ripped her stepson from this world and won’t ever get nailed for it. Then, the MFH occurred, and she was soon booted out of that house. Still, NO ARREST.
All words and speculations after TH moved to Roseburg have bugged the hell out of me, because none of them were anything but pure personal bile against her. Yet the two people who issued most of that bile are still two people who were not with Kyron day and night, for a long time, while TH was. Instead of hearing a concerned father, all I have heard from KH about TH’s suggestions that KH had something going on that warranted a visit to a doctor is that well, kinda, sorta, maybe, I-guess-might-have-discussed it. Oh, and she was sh*t faced drunk, too.
KH, imo, burned two women. This tells me today that he might have burned a man — a corporate scheme, an enraged ex-friend, a male associated somehow with KH who felt vindictive about something. This makes more sense to me today than ever before. KH has simply been to damned vague.
And there ya have it. I have full bore insomnia tonight and decided now was the time to say all of this. I think the LE, from the very start, fell into a manure pool with this case, and I think, also, that they are not just looking at TH, and never were “just looking at TH.” She did talk to them several times. Something is up, LE really screwed up and missed it, and it ain’t about the redhead.
I think TH is afraid of KH, and that something smells rotten in Denmark, or in this case, Israel, Norway, Portland, California….
Any by the way, folks, if the idea of custodial interference for a civil case was, to KH, a good idea on DY’s part, that involves Kyron leaving the state. Why isn’t KH taking his awareness booths out of Oregon???
I believe that Kyron is alive, and KH knows that.
NelMel- I think your post gives a lot to discuss in a logical and non-emotionally driven way.
You already know my position agrees with yours inasmuch as KH associations to this crime have never been ruled out to my satisfaction. Moreover, I have never seen a parent so “fine” with LE having absolutely no leads to a child’s whereabouts or how he got there. It is utterly illogical to me and incongruent with every parent missing a child ( regardless of age) I have ever worked with or interviewed.
My experience is far more predicated on missing teens/adults I admit, but frankly that only underscores how odd this is, I mean, statistically speaking, and if he is in the business of awareness he should know, there was a 75% chance Kyron was killed in the first 72 hours if this was a sexually motivated offender- which has never been excluded. In FACT he knows TH left without Ky. Why would that not be creating sheer and unmitigated panic ? It’s off. He has spent enough time in front of the camera for me to say with confidence he is either aware of some sort of interpretable information
Did KH ever address the alleged hate emails DY discussed publicly?
Throw in the fact that TH AGREED he should spend more time with his Momma, – that info directly from DY.
TH was tagging his FB photos of school activity, plays, holidays, playdates, etc.
Can anyone confirm for me that DY EVER attended an event at Skyline School? Not making her wrong, but I have never seen any image of Kyron at a school based function outside of a soccer game a few years back- and I have never seen images of Ky and Quinn together, opening presents on Christmas morning like I have seen dozens of pics throughout years of this combined family, managed by TH. I have seen images of TH, the kids and Quinn and his dad that did not include Desiree. I have reviewed her docket re Quinn’s custody- it was contentious.
I submit that we need a definitive answer on the planned travel arrangements that day- is it true that TH or KH was slated to travel to Medford to exchange Ky that day when we know for certain TH was picking up James Saturday? I doubt it highly, the pair had not seen each other in some time, James was staying for a week, and by all accounts the brothers were close.
That said I want to be clear I am assessing the situation based on known facts, not condemning DY. I feel nothing but compassion for her. I think what KH did to her at the time he did it- effed her up for some time and it has taken her years and likely her marriage to TY to recover.
I believe people that work to improve deserve a second chance at getting it right, and more than that, I think their children deserve a chance to replace bad memories, or missing memories, with pride, love and attachment. I have yet to hear of a child benefitting from believing they have a parent that is bad at parenting.
The MFH-
As an example, if she was offing KH, what stopped her- because I saw dozens of pics over Christmas where her parents came to stay, a dinner and table setting that clearly show she spent HOURS cooking, setting, preparing- likely with only her Mom’s help. Happy Halloween pics, Easter best, etc.
This woman took pride in her family- she took pics of everything- a 15 year old boy, a 7 year old and a toddler and her house was neat as a pin.
She was posting when her daughter shoved diapers in the toilet, or dumped nail polish- this is not a woman who was hiding knocking back 40′s and taking pics of her recycling contents.
Is TH behavior with Cook ( which was entirely staged, make no mistake, this was a Kaine project) completely inappropriate? Yes, it is beyond disgraceful as to what was shared, however, we all know and I covered extensively that those sexts were manipulated and presented in a way that was impossible to have occurred – hopefully, if it ever comes in to any court proceeding, we will get to see the real-time exchanges.
Here’s the thing- if he believes TH is responsible, which he does, someone better explain to me how he is not frantic if he also believes she tried to off him- because isn’t that the nexus?
You would not know that by his interviews- and to my knowledge, I have never seen him speak publicly about the whole drinking thing except to say “he found out later” from friends.
I have never seen such white glove treatment by the media in terms of not asking the very questions I am posturing in order to keep on the press distribution list in my life. I am not saying this to offend them, I have had conversations with some directly. They do not want to end up like Pritkin- you know the guy, the only person to ever interview TH, albeit briefly.
Repeating myself- if this concept seems foreign, read The Murder Business by Mark Fuhrman.
I am in this profession and it was an eye opener for me. I do this work to solve or contribute to solving cases. It never occurred to me I would have better longevity if I focused solely on high profile cases content to stay cold.
I think DY is going to end up kicked in the teeth if Th and her lawyers properly defend it to the extent they can. You also already know that if TH IS involved, one can already see based on the questioning of DS- they are playing paintball with jello. If they do have any “gentlemen’s agreement) with MCSO, and I do NOT believe they do, I find myself praying one way or another, it will cause public stir sufficient for change.
Bruce McCain is right- and I concur this case will come down to what happens to the deuces tecums going to MCSO.
Unless they hit the reset button on this, and I suggest they do so with the FBI in the lead, I submit everything that can be done to find this little man is not.
Alternatively, ask the FBI to officially review MCSO handling of the case. It is shocking to me in a case this size this has not already been requested.
I would never blame MCSO for the multi-year million firehose based on good faith investigation. I would definitely find fault if they do not close the spigget and look for the real fire.
@Amy’s sister
VW, I didn’t realize you were local. It’s good to get your insights.
I’m not sure taxpayers are overly affected either way at this point. The criminal case seems to be at a standstill and the current civil cases are not being funded by taxpayers
If we ask Desiree who stands to gain her answer might be Kyron, her son.
The moment they lost David Anthony Durham IMO it became a cold case. Do you believe there is a link with him and Kyron’s disappearance?
The Skyline issue needs to be addressed. I am hoping Blink’s idea that maybe Desiree still plans to pull that Skyline rabbit out of the hat in her civil case is a possibility. If so I’m sure there are legal protections for the school in place which have kept her attorney up at night.
Are you from Portland? Sorry didn’t get back to you. But teen just walked in from outing and now I can breathe and try to read back. Regarding taxpayers. MCSO has gotten a pass for many years. Willarmette Week will call them on excess once in awhile (See “Swimming with Sharks” or their exposes on what the volunteer grand juries call them on yearly.) But you are right. And its because they mostly take care of the jails, the lost hikers on Mt. Hood and (it helps) the spotlight is always going to the PPD and Adams and the never ceasing suicide-by-cops stories. Still…though this case is really only followed (closely) by a few now …. the fact that MCSO has blown 2 million might be on the minds of taxpayers next sheriff re-election time. Maybe that is the – “it-might-take-years” deadline for MCSO. Get a conviction before next re-election time in 2014?
The civil cases still do cost the taxpayers. Desiree is not funding the judges, etc. That was one of the arguments for abatement IIRC. That this suit would tax the court, in other words.
I was attending to Adams (that Wendy’s perp) for awhile. But I do think, like you, that DD has got to be considered as the most likely…in my book. As a prime or an abetter. Proximity to Kaine, TMH, and Kyron. Maybe drank with Kaine, etc at that bar on Sauvie. Maybe had connections with the school as a volunteer firefighter. Strange behavior and prior conviction before June 4th. Drugs, aloofness, nice-guy but quiet. Brother’s interview was very odd, post the shooting at Newport. But ability to disappear was the most convincing. Kyron really did “disappear”. Even Desiree reported that early on: “Like a portal opened up…”
I better go read Blink’s other Kyron stories. LOL, sorry Blink. And see if she agrees.
BTW, blink….how come today they are making me put in name, email, etc on every comment?
@Red Rose
A long time ago, before I figured out how to do this, somebody wrote that they knew “certain things” and made it sound like they really did, but I never looked to see what other comments they made. Plus I don’t remember the name. But was one of the kooks/weirdos who write.
By the way, some of those OR Live posters are really rude to each other. *sigh* The down side of anonymity…..
——–
I came a bit later to postng on Olive, but that was “Inistel” and reading her archives fascinated me, at the time. I was taken in. Then they said she “became” SoCal and then many other names. There was a GLP thing in which she drew a following…divided and conquered…and was, at the end, exposed as a sham. I wasn’t “in” the loop, but lots of crazy, divisive stuff seemed to come of it. I think I saw someone here mentioning GLP.
Isn’t is ironic that a darling missing little boy spurred all this guile and vile? But it’s still there on many forums.
Hope everyone on the East Coast is safe.
@TRuth. I don’t think Terri could’ve signed on anywhere as a volunteer. And if she did she wouldn’t have known what to do with herself. When parents volunteer in computer labs, kids sign on for selves. Teachers don’t give access imo to volunteers. When our parent tech volunteers set up computers for new school year (wipe & clone), parent in charge gave us a sign in for the purpose of that work event only.
At some point hard drives are wiped & a cloning disk is put in for new school year, but in both public & private my experience was that was done in August. Software decisions for upcoming year had to be made, and new computers set up that generally arrive in the summer. Anyway I thought fbi labs could retrieve data that had been erased. I thought that data dump was phone records or something.
PS Malty. I didn’t read book. I think mas introduced the subject here.
I can’t find publishers he cites, Vik Crime, Blue Salamander/White Salmon.
Blue Salamander is the name of an Amazon storefront.
People should be aware with some Amazon orders, books are mailed
directly from the author, giving them your bank info & address, as JA told someone who returned his book, by tweet.
When I ordered “Real Men Don’t Rehearse” (excellent), it was mailed personally by the author, who wrote a nice note, which induced me to buy his book 2. JA is or has a smart lawyer, because I learned last week you can’t copyright a book title unless you make it a “series” from book 1 and include in each title the series name. He did that on Sohlberg series.
OT
This J Holt that took Whitney
Had child porn in his computer
Everyday more bad news comes out
About him
I wonder if he ever was around Skyline
Scary
Blink
I hope you have time to take a peek at this
Holt guy
He is really scarey
And has unaccountable times when he was missing
Kaine’s lack of emotion regarding his missing child is astounding, no doubt. Engineer or no, it’s not normal. The nonchalant comment he made about this investigation taking as long as four years (without batting an eye) was sooo odd.
Motive? To ‘get’ Terri? To prevent Desiree from ever getting custody of Kyron? Okay, I can see either one of those as an option for someone with psychopathology and we don’t know enough about Kaine to say if that’s a factor.
I’m not convinced Terri planned a murder for hire.
Terri doesn’t have the same tech skills that Kaine has which takes me back to the missing school files.
Terri wanted Ky to be with his mom, per Desiree.
Very little is known about Kaine and his associates.
It’s never been confirmed if Kaine was at the school on June 3rd which would place him at the scene of the crime, albeit on a different day.
I’ve always wondered, why a family vacay to Israel?
Did Kaine know David Anthony Durham?
I have considered the family dynamics as a reason for Terri wanting to disappear Kyron. She did all the work of raising a boy while his own parents did very little yet were capable of doing more. Those same family dynamics also lend support to theories involving Kaine, which I’ve also pondered over the last two years.
I weigh Terri’s actions in and I’m back to what feels like common sense. Sexting, leaving her daughter so willingly, driving around for hours on the exact morning Ky is missing, the confusion with the SF project, and not stating for the record that she believes Kaine (or anyone else) is the one involved in this.
Back to Kaine: We don’t know if LE ever investigated him. Have they confirmed his whereabouts that morning? Have they questioned his associates or past? Did they search his computer?
Blink is so right, MCSO and this case itself needs a thorough overview. Hopefully there is not a coverup in place preventing that and if there is may Houze come to the rescue.
Thank you NelMel and Blink for the post.
Kudos to Amy’s Sister. I would like those following this case to read her post.
She has a different opinion, at the moment, but considers all factors as a whole.
She is open and focused on resolution without the need or want to be right or care who else is.
This is all I ask for in those that “think” it logical TH was involved, but open.
B
NelMel says:
DY made a very public break from working with him as a parent “team.”
______
In her own words:
“I just can’t stand by and support the choices that he’s making. He had several opportunities to let Tony (Desiree’s husband) and I know what was going on and he did not, ” she said.
http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2012/08/kyron-terri-horman-hated-kyron.html
This says several things to me: Kaine absolutely did not want Kyron to live with Desiree, even to Kyron’s detriment. Desiree is so disturbed by it that she is willing to completey and publicly make the ‘break’ that NelMel speaks of. Kyron was not a priority which made him a child victim
.
vw says:
October 27, 2012 at 10:03 pm
Ditto!!!
*********
NelMel,
You aren’t the only one who has doubts about that man. There is only one thing that makes me wonder whether or not TH knows something about Kaine, and that is the fact that he has her daughter. She does not seem to be worried about that, which still makes me wonder.
**************
Blink, you made me laugh out loud, about Mr. B saving the day. Ain’t it true! Stay safe everyone on the East Coast!
I had the opinion Pitkin was let go due to his exposing many in city governance, police, Courts, commissioners on micro & megaissues. On the other hand if the Portland-resident then CFO, now CEO, of Intel (remember the shockingly large investment in Hillsboro expansion & jobs creation this fall) said to the newspaper owner,
Pitkin’s work is bothersome to my grieving employee, who knows?
Reading their articles generally, far broader than Kyron, I don’t see journalistic fact gathering to get at a story on other topics broader than human interest kinds of facts, except by an intern from NYC working at OLive summer ’10. Reminds me of my preinternet print dependent days 30 years ago
when I said I could only settle in NY, DC or LA to get some news.
As Blink said, Kaine associations have not been ruled out, but I don’t think them likely. He was more likely to divorce Teri for the next skirt and didn’t need an elaborate game plan with Kyron to do so. Plenty of husbands are mysogenists and have all in their name & assign the woman the woman’s work. Imo they’re too lazy & disengaged on the home front to go to all this trouble. Business revenge? Well maybe if he was a CEO in private enterprise, head of X Capital & employee was psychotic. What could it be as an Intel group mgr? Intel was known per media for kicking of mgrs of a certain age just before retirement. Kaine could’ve weitten a contributory bad perf review. But again how do you connect a school based crime against a child unless colleague was insane?
About Kaine’s affect & loss behavior, Jessica’s Dad, Autumn’s, seem typical imo.
I think Desiree and Kaine would still be tight if she’d kicked in and been the PR front for his BKHF.
She didn’t because at least “Poppa” questioned spending choices. But, it seems she was aware he
was sexually active, per her comments to Terri.
One of Jens Amundsen’s retweets was :
retweeted from “Stacey@pinkspiritgirl:
“We love you Kyron Richard Horman. ALWAYS…. NEVER ENDING… Loving you and hoping your back in your Mommas arms… “fb.me/1rkQqXrhe
Retweeted by Jens Amundsen
3:14pm – 27 Feb 12″ The retweet link
goes to “Kyron’s Worldwide Warriors” FB,
showing a post by Desiree. This FB site
repeatedly directs support to gofundme & Desiree’s
suit. I remember reading too “hoodies are in” “soft”
at new Ebay site for Kyron Horman Foundation (note:
it isnot the Bring Kyron Home Foundation).
I think Desiree and Kaine simply have different means to the same end.
Although to be honest a divorce suit and RO are no means to Finding Kyron.
Kaine’s means then is not litigation (watch for a settlement), it is “Awareness.”
Did anyone notice DeDe didn’t have a criminal
attorney present? Must be confident she was uninvolved, yet it undercuts her claim she’s
in criminal jeopardy in the civil depo.
NelMel says:
October 28, 2012 at 1:37 am
Okay, deep breath, here goes……..
and Blinks response
**********
You both nailed it to a T!
@ Malty says:
October 28, 2012 at 8:34 am
OT
This J Holt that took Whitney
Had child porn in his computer
Everyday more bad news comes out
About him
I wonder if he ever was around Skyline
Scary
—————————————————————
OT
I agree Malty..the news gets worse every day. I’m hoping there is a thorough investigation into Holt’s prior activities including drug usage. It’s obvious he didn’t try to cover his tracks during the commission of his crime against Whitney. LE has just scratched the surface and more bad news keeps coming each day. Just breaks my heart!
http://www.kgw.com/news
@Amys Sister says:
(snipped) “I’m not convinced Terri planned a murder for hire.
Terri doesn’t have the same tech skills that Kaine has which takes me back to the missing school files.
Terri wanted Ky to be with his mom, per Desiree.
Very little is known about Kaine and his associates.
It’s never been confirmed if Kaine was at the school on June 3rd which would place him at the scene of the crime, albeit on a different day.
I’ve always wondered, why a family vacay to Israel?
Did Kaine know David Anthony Durham?”
——————————————————
Wrt Kaine being at the school on June 3rd. Below is some interesting dialogue from Lea Conner. Also a comment from “Neighbor” regarding Kaine’s presence June 3.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=9317.700
Thoughts and prayers are with you and your family as well as others on the East Coast as the prepare and predict what may happen with the hurricane Sandy. It’s a beautiful day here in Southern Cali., was 91 degrees yesterday. We did have several very small earthquakes here, but nothing unusual!
Thank you Sharon.
B
@NelMel says:
October 28, 2012 at 1:37 am
You have put into words what my brain keeps spinning in the centrifuge of my waking hours. Something is “off” about the electronic/technological data manipulation aspect of this case : what’s been “preserved”, what’s been manipulated, what’s missing, what’s never come to light. My hope: LE has a super-”Bill Gates” who is working, even as we fret, following the dark cyber space tunnels of dire deeds capable of escaping the even the highest paid hi-tech deceiver.
http://www.pdc.wa.gov/archive/commissionmeetings/meetingshearings/pdfs/2008/06.26.08.Edsel.pdf
This person (who was running for a superior court judge position in Clark County WA) says he first married “late in life” (both he and his wife, first marriage), in 2007. The son on the myspace page is an adult.
(I suppose it’s possible that either never had married before but had a son from a prior relationship, but the son does call them mom and dad.) IDK, just strange. Says his income is from providing legal services as a Clark Court appointed attorney and the Edsel family trust.
Another interesting thing here besides the Norway connection, is this guy sounds like he and Kaine handle marriage finances the same way. Ernest M. Edsel’s signature looks like it starts with a J. J for Jens? Funny that.
More on Edsel (click on any of the diff for different versions?):
http://deletionpedia.dbatley.com/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/JudicialWatch
http://catvillarreal.blogspot.com/
http://catvillarreal.blogspot.com/2009/09/as-you-know-by-now-cat-died-in.html
Does anyone know about this person who died the fall (September 19, 2009) before we lost Kyron? It was a motorcycle accident but was it in the Skyline area? (Ok, I looked around – it was on Hwy 30, which is just down the road from Sheltered Nook Road).
It all sounds very sad and he sounds like he was a nice person. I just wondered if there was much of a connection between him and either KH or TMH, mostly wondering about TMH.
Or would there have been any more ‘personal’ socializing between KimH and Kaine or between Cat and TMH? Probably not, but with their young sons as classmates, just wondered if there was any kind of interaction. Also, wasn’t James about the same age as one of their other sons? All wondering, don’t mean to go way offbase and offend anyone….
I almost hate to even bring this up if he was a really nice person. And there are probably people here who knew and liked him, so no offense intended. Kind of wondered because of NelMel’s comment, below.
When I googled, I found various links: http://www.srnpdx.org/sites/default/files/RR1009_color.pdf
(Page 5)
He lived with his partner Kim in Aloha where TMH and KH also lived, so wondered if their paths ever crossed, also wondered when KH/TMH moved up to the Skyline area.
Kurtis was Kim’s child, right – and a stepson of Cat, right?
= = = = = =
NelMel says:October 28, 2012 at 1:37 am
Okay, deep breath, here goes.
I have come to the conclusion that I believe Kyron’s abduction was based on issues associated with KH.
That is Cat Villerreal- life partner and common law hubby of Kim Holm, Kurtis’ mother.
B
http://ad2ad.com/?portalid=2500362&adview=3192700&fixad=true
This obit lists no male grandchildren for Judy Lamb’s mother’s obituary. Just two grand daughters for Judy Lamb’s deceased mother. (DOD 2012) (Judy Lamb according to the PDF, above Edsel’s wife.)
Weird. (I don’t really know why I’m looking at this guy LOL, it’s just strange to me that someone was so interested in Kyron’s case, he wrote a book about it, before it’s, well…..solved, or for that matter before any evidence is even released.)
NelMel is putting into words the very same vibes I’ve gotten about him.
By the way, the part about a red car zipping around Sauvie Island and pings about that time bring up a few questions. Why does everybody think the pings are from TMH? Couldn’t they be from throwaway phones purchased by KH, also?
Is KH also ‘lawyered up’?
Could LE (who knows things they wish they didn’t) be waiting for KH to make a ‘mistake’ instead of TMH?
Wouldn’t Kyron have left Skyline immediately with his dad?
It all makes one kind of wonder how much TMH knows, but is afraid to talk about, just knowing her husband, KH.
I’m feeling bad that I’m having bad thoughts about people who are probably perfectly innocent. But I suppose everyone and all things need to be looked at. The main thing is that we need Kyron back – and if KH IS involved, I get a feeling that Kyron probably IS OK. Prayers for that little boy – no child deserves this.
….and when is anybody ever going to do something to protect children?
Also, I’ve personally always wondered how anyone who took that many pictures of a loving, happy, smiling Kyron could do all of the bad things people are saying about her. (Blink wrote: TH was tagging his FB photos of school activity, plays, holidays, playdates, etc.)
And I also wondered about the Cook/phone/sexting thing – if KH and Cook thought that would be a fun trick to play on TMH, and she bit.
Do you think that maybe DY should be asking all of the same questions of KH that she is of TMH?
@NelMel says:October 28, 2012 at 1:37 am
I think he has knowledge of “things we wish we didn’t know about,” and that takes me back to Staton’s words. I think KH is hiding something, and that something is all about his son, and him, and his life, and not so much about TH at all.
Could it be that TMH left her daughter with KH because she knows the baby would be safer with him than if she tried to get her away from him? It would be interesting to know if/when TMH was beginning to get scared of KH, maybe even to worrying about the safety of the children, but just didn’t act fast enough – or couldn’t — and then got caught in the whirlpool the last two years have been?
@Amys Sister says:October 28, 2012 at 11:38 am
This says several things to me: Kaine absolutely did not want Kyron to live with Desiree, even to Kyron’s detriment.