Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
Related Posts
Related Posts:
2,458 Comments
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI
Please always delete anything out of line
That trust is why I’m here.
anything OF MINE I meant
If I continue resentment theme, I think it takes more than one hand to count those who could have fixated resentfully on Terri, or Kaine, or both and seek to hurt them. I won’t name the men I can think of, but the Hormans had just bowled recentlywith a family which also had an unusual and grieving (presumeably) teen. And we have seen 2 cases with teens recently. Yet they got caught. Blink wrote on another thread she looks at motive only after case profile, though. So the case profile of a SZ who planned with precision probably trumps an avidly resentful person in the Hormans’ sphere
@rose.
No worries
looking back, Blink, it’s best to delete my long post.
I could have explored the resentment of Hormans (either of
them) theme as their kids seemed to have it all without
bringing in an unrelated senseless evil deed.
I am not sure what to think of DeDe’s cousin. Is it the consensus here among all you smart and informed people, that everything he says is 100% BS?
@rose. I think I did, in the dark, lol. Lemme know
I truly believe that if TMH was the mastermind behind this crime, she would have NEVER let KH be one step ahead of her. Meaning the R/O that he filed, would have never been filed by him, but by her. What if she filed for an R/O again st KH? She would have Kiara. It would make for be interesting turn of events. This is why I think TMH is not involved in Kyron’s disappearance. There is no way this mom who took care the kids, house, and herself, and seemed to like the situation until infidelity hit home. Kaine holds what she wants the most “Kiara”, her baby, and he knows it. And yes, it is possible, that KH had Kyron snatched and put into safe-keeping so that neither DY or TMH could have him. I think he is just that vindictive. MOO.
Does anyone know for sure if Thomas Jones is related to Dede or not?
He does appear to be what he says he is here, as far as the story about his wife & son.
Her brothers name is Richard goes by Rick middle name Earl after my/ our grandfather . I’m for real. There is going to be alot of attention paid the the content of the text messages, no one knows anything about Kyron or the world would allready know. I wish I knew. You guys don’t quite get how surreal this is for me, my oldest sons name is Kieran, pronounced the same as Kyron. I live In clackamas Oregon.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bBXL4VSZ_jAJ:mydeathspace.com/vb/showthread.php%3F19952-Kyron-Horman-%287%29-missing-after-being-dropped-off-for-school-Science-Fair/page34+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Here’s the story of the accident his wife died in. I’m just not finding a relationship to Dede.
Shirley Kay Brocchini
“What was mommy like?”
Undoubtedly, this question will be asked by the young Grandson of Shirl Koop. The boy’s mother, Shirley Kay Brocchini-Jones, died as a result of being pulled into the spinning blades of a houseboat while vacationing at Lake Shasta on the weekend of July 25, 1995. Her son, Kieran, was just seven months old at the time, and it was to be the first time away from his parents overnight.
(The following is pieced from the Herald News and the Redding Record Searchlight)
Brocchini-Jones husband, Thomas, 25, Klamath Falls, said he and his wife arrived at the lake Friday afternoon for three days of fun.
But their weekend turned tragic at about 6 p.m. when Brocchini-Jones became entangled in a houseboat propeller in the Waters Gulch on the lake’s Sacramento arm, officials said.
Shirley was trying to board the boat when it accidentally went into reverse, her husband said. As the front of the vessel turned to the left, the boat’s churning propeller moved toward her, drawing her into the blades, according to her husband.
“When I pulled her out it had mangled her right leg to the hip, and severely injured her left leg,” Thomas Jones said Tuesday. After emergency personnel were called, a helicopter arrived and took Jones to Mercy Medical Center in Redding within 20 minutes of the accident.
The bones in her lower left leg were broken in numerous places and are being held in place by a steel casing that resembles a scaffold, said Dr. Kevin Lawson, an orthopedic surgeon who worked on Shirley. She will have limited use of her leg and it may have to be cut off below the knee, Lawson said.
During the surgery Brocchini-Jones required numerous blood transfusions while the doctors tried to repair her severed leg arteries, Schepps said. She used about 70 pints of blood during the surgery, the equivalent of replacing all of the blood in her body seven times, Schepps said.
(snipped more @ link)
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:h66pIcIW0CgJ:propellersafety.com/spin/shirley.htm+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
@wpg.
Sorry. Sometimes so dense! I wrote a long diatribe about school politics in the sw hills, here, etc. And hit the wrong button. It’s gone…you’re blessed. lol
Short story as dinner needs to get done. Not a Skyline Parent, but in the cluster. Very near, same types of families etc.
I’ll find the list of guidelines LE asked the Skyline neighbors to use in talking to the press.
If I had know something and been a parent there I would no doubt go to the principal. And follow-up. But I might not buck the system if Keefer didn’t take me seriously. Lots of political pressure if other parents didn’t agree.
Question is…how did TMH know that he was seen by a male chaperone? Did kaine know it too? When? And yet 1/2 of the r/o is due to probable cause that she was “involved” in his disappearance.
Thinking about this: Have you or anyone else seen a statement that TMH “kidnapped” kyron? Other than the FB people?
Sorry I couldn’t answer you more specifically.
@ January. Are those FB memories so short?? LOL. Thanks for the FB link, whomever gave it to me. I pondered over those Olive posts by inistel for days back in the fall of 2010. Not involved but caught glimpses of all the drama. Can’t believe she is being taken seriously, again, with obvious salivating for the next “installment” of the insider story.
TY it’s gone
in dark too
rather, driving to charge cell. Parked now bcz
too many branches collected below.
@January. haven’t read him since glp. He says he thinks Dede & Terri did it and no one
else, but he thinks he’s the key to it all as a sleuther mastermind. Now if that was real, he’d talk to LE & no
one else. The little I saw of his writing on that AntiDD FB
page, because I don’t sign into FB, is written in exceptionally good prose and far better
than glp days. Written like the author had a graduate education.
If I was at Kinkos on a computer once removed, I’d read that Kyron mystery & Tom’s stories
& compare both ideas & syntax. As well as read JA’s twitter back to its inception. Tho as Blink says, it’s a waste
to read 3rd party pontificators, and I’m not encouraging it. . I think one of the pseudonym author’s tweets said something about he might testfy in the civil case. My memory could be wrong. But I can picture Tom saying something altong that line too
I agree..”So that neither could have him”…offers some interesting speculations. It seems like one of them may be trying to trump the other–”if you do that, then I’ll do this” kind of thing, both having a good idea of the other’s “dirty laundry”. This may be why at that first press conference there was such odd body language–the looks of guilt? shame? fear? To me it seemed very incongruent with grief. Just my opinion.
Cindy says:
October 29, 2012 at 8:23 pm
@Cindy – I hadn’t thought of that, thank you for your post. I guess the only question I would have is that there are so many examples of parents who seemed loving, smart, etc. who have murdered and done other unthinkable things to those children. That is probably one of the top reasons why both KH and THM seem pretty much just as innocent as they seem guilty (imo) if there is no hard evidence, it seems that there’s going to be just as many arguments to each of their guilt than of their innocence.
It will be interesting to find out (if we ever do) what caused LE to put so much faith in that “MFH Plot”. I mean it…what did they find so convincing that the R/O was issued, and Kaine was suggested to leave his home. Was it LE just hoping really hard that they could trust R. Sanchez in the hopes of giving our community a glimmer of relief that someone was arrested? (If the sting hasn’t been busted). This could absolutely be the case. Scary, but could be. The other side of that coin is that they did find something real and convincing. That’s scary, too.
I hope that made sense? : /
P.S., Blink & East Coast company – please stay as safe and dry as possible, thinking of you and sending warm thoughts!
Cindy says:
October 29, 2012 at 8:23 pm
I truly believe that if TMH was the mastermind behind this crime, she would have NEVER let KH be one step ahead of her. Meaning the R/O that he filed, would have never been filed by him, but by her. What if she filed for an R/O again st KH? She would have Kiara. It would make for be interesting turn of events. This is why I think TMH is not involved in Kyron’s disappearance. There is no way this mom who took care the kids, house, and herself, and seemed to like the situation until infidelity hit home. Kaine holds what she wants the most “Kiara”, her baby, and he knows it. And yes, it is possible, that KH had Kyron snatched and put into safe-keeping so that neither DY or TMH could have him. I think he is just that vindictive. MOO.
____________________________________________________________
@Cindy,
If TMH was involved, then she planned to have an alibi for the time that Kyron was taken. Perhaps she did not foresee what would follow.
I personally wonder about why she has not done a thing to get Kiara back. If there is nothing to the MFH, I do not think it would be too hard to fight the RO, esp. wrt Kiara. Unless the MFH is bunk and she has other illegal activities to hide. All I know is, I could not go any length of time without seeing my children. I could not sit idly by, waiting for charges that may never come. MOO.
You reference “infidelity”, on Kaine’s part? I don’t think anything like that was ever confirmed, only gossiped about. I think Kaine has already lost one child and doesn’t want to lose the other one, too. To attack him by saying he is being vindictive is just wrong. I do not believe he “snatched” Kyron to keep him from DY or TMH. I think he was caught off guard and is clearly heart broken. I see a man that is weary but continues to do the only things that seem to keep him going, keeping Kyron in the news through his awareness events. MOO.
@truth
Just awful.
@bumble
I see your point, but then you need to see mine. He is absolutely not doing everything he could when he has information Ky did not leave with TH.
Left field. Anyone remember those t-shirts that TH planned to send to Medford? Just wondering if they were from Nike’s “mylocker.”
http://www.mylocker.net/oregon/portland/skyline-elementary-school/product-twill_cap2_790_138.html
Nike has a lot of involvement in PPS schools since ’07/’08
http://nikeschoolinnovationfund.org/stories/
http://nikeschoolinnovationfund.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/nsif_comp_15.pdf
Couldn’t help but notice RS was wearing a Nike T when he was snapped in B’s infamous photo of him.
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=rudy+sanchez+%2B+blink+on+crime&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS366US366&biw=1114&bih=580&tbm=isch&tbnid=VPyY60zsIbOgSM:&imgrefurl=http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/09/09/kyron-horman-missing-case-review-and-birthday-wishes-to-the-frog-prince/&docid=rdtaTFtgmQU08M&imgurl=http://blinkoncrime.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Sanchez_201.jpg&w=720&h=486&ei=1EOPUN6XK8XUiwLt74CQAw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=392&sig=106429459168861476752&page=1&tbnh=131&tbnw=207&start=0&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,i:89&tx=116&ty=62
Were those T’s delivered on SF day?
Okay, this creeps me out. A Tom Jones who lives on Sunnyside Rd., in Clackamas, where TJ says he lives.
Ya’ll remember the poem posted on OLive where it read something like, “on the Sunnyside where you should be”.?????? And BTW, the birthdate 1970, would have made this guy 25 in the above Lake Shasta accident.
Clackamas, OR xxxxxx Sunnyside Rd 97015 Mar 1970
http://radaris.com/p/Thomas/Jones/OR/
Why is it this case has all these very strange people surrounding it? Maybe this is the big clue we’re missing somehow. We’ve got JW, MC, TJ, Insitel, freaking weird stuff, I’ve never seen anything like this. (and I hope I never do again).
So, one has a boat on Shasta, which apparently was a rental, because Shirley’s mother has been advocating that whomever is driving the boat, needs more instruction. So here’s my question, it says the boat was accidentally put into reverse, however, it also says the boat was turning to the left.
If the boat was turning to the left, then that means the prop would have been going to the right, when it hit Shirley. Question, why would a person be turning to the left to pick up someone on the right side of the boat? I’m probably just missing something.
wpg says:
October 29, 2012 at 5:56 pm
vw,
Thanks, but I was not inquiring about confronting the district or raising Blink’s comments in any public setting.
I was asking if you personally, as a local school-parent, have gone to any form of law enforcement involved in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance from his/a school, ie. Staton, Underhill, to address a concern about an unidentified male plus description that Blink, right here in black and white, has reported on.
________
Again, vw, as you can see from above, I was clearly asking about LE – - not the press, not the principal of Skyline.
Won’t ask you again. No worries.
Thanks.
T.Ruth,
I think DDS’ mother and T.Jones’ father are brother and sister.
Christina Stoy says:
October 29, 2012 at 10:32 pm
@bumble
I see your point, but then you need to see mine. He is absolutely not doing everything he could when he has information Ky did not leave with TH.
_______________________
Certainly, he needs to accept the possibility that TMH was not involved, and that it was a total stranger that abducted Kyron. That should have been a parallel investigation all along.
@bumble, exactly what continues to bother me. Thank you for continuing to be open to the facts of the case, regardless of where they may or may not lead.
@wpg. sorry I misunderstood too.
You are always so incisive & precise, you deserved better reading from me.
I will horn in again to say imo the right advocacy
leverage point for Kaine, and I think no LE or govt entity
in Portland will respond to a teacher/parent unless they’re standing behind a bio,
would be the govt entity with the
power of the purse over LE, the County Council, not mcso itself.
Surely County Commissioners have public comment periods
(3 min?) at their monthlys? And surely they have periodic topical town hall mtgs.
I would respect Kaine if he would draft a thank you for public monies spent in the investigation,
point out it is stalled and has been, and ask the CCs to ensure the
DA controlling the investigation manage a transfer of leadership to FBI or PPB for fresh eyes,
and also ask that the CC undertake an external review of PPS policy & procedures to ensure
no recurrances. He could seat his extended family behind himself & add to his 3 minutes:
these are Kyron’s loved ones who join with me in this request.
Kaine said he goes to gym 2 hours daily to keep his body healthy to Find Kyron.
Surely he could do a 3 minute public comment before the CC asking for a change in investigation leadership.
Couldn’t this whole thing be stalled because the cops are saying to the DA, “Here’s your case.” And, the DA is saying, “No, it’s not.”
Also,
What would LE (or a DA) do if a parent gets out in front of a story? Would they publicly contradict a grieving parent?
@rose and wpg
I do get what you are both suggesting. As a public employee myself, and an informed citizen I understand the chain of command here. I agree with you, totally, Rose, about shifting the Kyron case to PPD. But here’s the Rose-town politics: 1) Tho PPB has its share of problems the difference between the PPD detectives and MCSO detectives is that PPD have to prove/earn their badges rather than being selected by Staton or just by tenure …which is a + for PPB takeover. AND 2) It’s well-known that PPD detectives are a league above Staton’s crew that has relatively no experience in complicated cases such as this one. BUT 3) Jurisdiction…although Staton’s sheriff’s mainly stay in East county, there are outlying areas that fall under their rule. AND 4) How would, even if it were possible, Underhill look if he gave PPD the jurisdiction? He would be saying that he no longer had faith in the sheriiff that he went to the comissioners with to get more money for the overtime.
IDK. Believe me….I have been pretty upset with them all the past couple years. Especially when my property taxes skyrocket. Underhill was uhallenged for election this year. i wonder if Staton will be changing direction next year, when he starts thinking about re-election in 2014.
@ Rose Oct. 30th @ 12:55 am
Could it be that Kaine doesn’t want to alienate LE? What if the County Commissioners/DA refuse his request to have the case turned over to the FBI. Most likely Kaine and LE have built a relationship over the past two years. Could Kaine lack the brass to look LE the eye and tell them that what they’re doing isn’t good enough? Alternatively, could Kaine be happy with LE and the direction they’ve taken. LE’s focus on Terri is definitely beneficial to Kaine’s divorce and custody case. Maybe Kaine is blinded by any other alternative then Terri being the one who took Kyron. As someone pointed out here, Kaine may hold on to the hope that Kyron is alive BECAUSE he believes Terri took Kyron. As much as he is working against her, he may not be able to comprehend that she killed him. It would be nice if the family read here at BOC. I think we do a great job of fence sitting; opening our minds to several scenarios. Most of us know this case backward and forward, if they read our posts they might at least ponder the thought that it might be someone other than Terri. If that became an epiphany, they might start making demands. The only other thing I was thinking is that if LE told Kaine that a witness saw Kyron with a man, maybe he believes that the man is a friend or acquaintance of Terri’s.
@erose. imo that Holm quote was full of it.
@erose
Yes, it could, but with suspended grand juries , not believing the non-sourcable KH “the are closer now then they were.”
I respect everyone who posts here as this forum gives all of us an opportunity to express or thoughts and opinions, thus the fence sitting.
Trying not to take either parent’s side although I can see all sides. But, this is about KYRON, LE has dropped the ball in my opinion, and why wouldn’t you as a parent, grandparent, etc., push for FBI takeover of a cold case?
@January. My opinion is what does he need LE for except Finding Kyron and bringing the criminals to justice.
The case is cold.
His interests diverge from Kyron’s in that of course he wants a friendly relationship with mcso to facilitate his own interests–testimony he will seek for litigation of the RO, custody & divorce. That is why Kyron, and Kiara, should both have their own representation via gals. I think he is mistaken. MCSO will first & foremost serve their ownpolicies, procedures and interests. One reason imo
he will settle, not litigate.
Did Kaine believe Terri did it before the mcso Det told him about the mfh?
His behavior indicates not. This case turns on the investigation’s leadership.
@vw. Imo if Skyline were described the crime scene, it is a pocket of PPB jurisdiction.
I wouldn’t ask Underhill to do anything. I’d ask the Council, because I think the Council funds Underhill’s Office (and mcso & pps & ppb). If the CC wants to save face, they can pressure Underhill to request FBI lead the case. I do not see this intelligent wellspoken grieving parent show what I now consider typical behaviors of a parent attempting to influence a case’s investigatory direction or redirection like Kesse, Sharpton, Harrington etc.
To me, if Kyron is found alive, Kaine will have so lost credibility,
a Court will give residential custody to DY no questions asked.
Depending upon the circumstances of who was involved I would think nothing like that would occur unless DY filed for the modification. If it does not tie directly to some sort of negligence coming from his camp, I doubt very much that DY would ever be in a position to acquire full custody of Ky.
That said, I would certainly love for someone to have the problem of fighting over a recovered Kyron in any way.
B
Could SZ have waited in Skyline parking lot the morning of the science fair observing, assessing the attendants and prospective targets. Could Ky being one of his targets since mother had a baby in tow which would be a distraction for the mother. Could he have assembled his list of potential kids and entered the school as a visitor of the fair. While ‘perusing’ the fair, he kept an eye out for his ‘potentials’ and tailed those gathering more info to narrow down his list. Ie, overhear TH at to Ky, ‘only 5 more minutes before I need to go, baby K isn’t feeling good’. Could Ky have been among a list of potential victims but was the unfortunate one due to perfect timing and info gathering?
This doesn’t explain THs behavior afterwards but in respect to Ky’s disappearance, maybe TH didn’t have anything to do with Ky going missing. She just had other ‘issues’ that Ky’s disappearance forced to come to light; thus, making her appear guilty in his disappearance.
Going back over stories and posts. I know TMH said someone saw Kyron with a male “chaperone” and two girls. Am wondering why the witness identified the person as a chaperone. Why not say with a “man”.
Most kids would use that adjective? Prolly witness was not a younger student.
Blink…or someone. Can you get me to your post where you explain more about who this person could have been. I’ve always thought it could have been a perp with two of his own groomed kids as deflection.
At Erose: Did you notice that a copy of the motion to compel dede to talk went to the DA’s office?
Is this merely so that they would be ready to prosecute if the compel is granted and Dede still refuses. Or is the DA more interested than he makes out. Since he was standing on top of the stairs when Desiree and Rosenthal did their presser indicates, to me, that LE is much more involved than they make it out to be. Underhill, btw, is the overseer of both the county (Staton’s group) and the PPD (city). IIRC both Rosenthal and Rackner were deputy DAs with him. It’s a tangled web, for sure.
wpg says:
October 29, 2012 at 11:23 pm
You’re right, Thanks to you, I finally found the connection. Here’s TJ’s father’s obit, died 2011:
Lyle David Jones died on March 11, 2011, in Brookings, Ore., of natural causes.
He was born to Earl and June Jones on April 13, 1949, in Klamath Falls, Ore.
Lyle, also known as David, was raised in Klamath Falls and graduated from Klamath Union High School in 1967. Some of David’s fondest memories were of many hilarious adventures with his cousins and friends. After graduating from high school, he enlisted in the Navy and flew missions over Thailand and Vietnam. Upon completion of his tour of duty, he lived in Southern California, Eugene, Ore., and eventually moved back to Klamath Falls, where he began working for Jonco Mill Specialties owned by his parents. After his parents retired, David dissolved the business and moved to Brookings, Ore. There, he purchased a large fishing boat so he could pursue his love of fishing. His dream was to someday sail his boat down to Mexico. Aside from fishing, he also loved to hunt and would often reminisce about past family hunting and fishing excursions.
Survivors include his son Thomas Jones and his children of Portland, Ore.; daughter Laura Jones of Portland; sister Linda Spicher and her husband Don Spicher of Klamath Falls; aunts, uncles, numerous cousins, a niece, a nephew, and very special friends John Hill and his wife Jeanine Opelt Hill.
Memorial services will be held at a later date.
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/heraldandnews/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=151329682#fbLoggedOut
Laura Jean Jones
Laura J Jones
39 Klamath Falls, OR
Vancouver, WA
Felton, CA
Boulder Creek, CA
Sacramento, CA
Laura J Jones
Thomasedward Jones
Sylvia E Jones-cook
According to the obit, Laura Jones is Thomas’ sister.
So who is Sylvia E Jones-Cook, Thomas Jones’ mother? Another sister? Is it possible she is related to Michael Cook?
http://www.peoplefinders.com/search/searchpreview.aspx?searchtype=people-name&fn=sylvia&ln=cook&mn=&city=&state=WA&age=&dobmm=&dobdd=&doby=#
Have you guys already found this stuff?
@Rose
You are just correct, they know more can be done, they know at least where to apply that pressure with at least enough tencil strength, and no idiot malicious fb or other white noise is going to change my opinion on that.
“In the e-mail, the family indicated that, “…If we find out that through the investigation that she caused a delay in us finding our son due to her lack of cooperation, we will pursue civil remedies in this matter.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20011520-504083.html
—–
Could this be why DeDe is pleading the 5th?
Sylvia E Cook
Sylvia Cook
Sylvia E Cookjones
Cook Sylvia Jones
Sylvia E Jonescook
Sylvia E Jones-cook
64 Klamath Falls, OR
Merrill, OR
http://www.peoplefinders.com/search/searchpreview.aspx?searchtype=people-name&fn=sylvia&ln=cook&mn=&city=&state=OR&age=64&dobmm=&dobdd=&doby=#
John Franklin Cook
Melva J Cook
Sarah Marie Cook
Sylvia Elaine Cook
Laura Jean Jones
Because of age, looks like Sylvia Jones-Cook is Thomas’s mother.
@sunshine_4me 10/31/12 – 11:01 a.m.
I think absolutely that it could be a predator with some knowledge of the school (layout) and that it was science fair day (chaotic). Your thoughts regarding a mom with baby in tow adds to her distraction of unknowns. I live in a small town and have been at many school functions and I didn’t know who half the people were there. For a planned abduction, it would be easy pickings with such lax school security.
@Falstaff
And I you, thank you. I would simply request focus over emotion.
I don’t know about you, but unless ky can be found, I really don’t give a rats ass about who is right or wrong.
T. Ruth, Malty and anyone else interested, I had ‘researched’ jonesr when he was posting on GLP. I thought he was OT back then and wondered what he was up to. Still wonder.
IIRC, he lived in Lake Osewgo at one time. Has some sort of business related to cars? I will do some digging and see what I have on file.
Off the top, I found this:
@Malty- Tom Jones aka jonesr @GLP stated that he lives in Northern California and has not been in Oregon since he was 6, but he stated on GLP that his mother-in-law blames him for a boating/houseboat accident that killed his wife Shirley back in 1995.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Could be he moved back to Oregon since his postings on GLP? or not…
I’m interested in those friends he mentioned. The ones with ‘skills’ as relates to the internet. The ones that found Dede’s internet connection (IP/Server?) for him.
More later, if the power holds up -lost my electric at home & relocated to a warmer place with current
Blink suggested early on iirc that due to the precise
organized nature of execution, the “taker” had been on
site before to assist his planning. Maybe done a walk thru.
Oh, me too. Notice. she was also trying to establish a “last time seen,” for whatever motivation.
Rose says:
October 30, 2012 at 8:25 am
@erose. imo that Holm quote was full of it.
—————————————–
Good to know I guess, though it does not seem to be of benefit.
Christina Stoy says:
October 30, 2012 at 8:35 am
@erose
Yes, it could, but with suspended grand juries , not believing the non-sourcable KH “the are closer now then they were.”
——————————————
@TRuth,
We were all over Spicher’s family, but I cannot say we uncovered that Cook connection without going back. Interesting.
Rose says:
October 26, 2012 at 11:43 am
Excellent point about Terri changed his name in 09 and not to Horman. Choice of Moulton says a lot. If she wanted a “competitive” son, or he and Kaine got along, she’d have made it Horman.
———————————
Just thinking –
I’ve thought it had more to do with Terri and Kaine getting along than with Kaine and James. If her marriage with Kaine was on shaky ground, why give James the name of a marriage that she didn’t expect would last? Marriages sometimes go on for a year (or years) after one partner realizes they’ve given up on it. I think her financial needs crossed her mind when she decided to renew her teaching certificate. JMO. She renewed it in Feb., 2010, by using coursework, so she had to be thinking about it before she started the coursework, taking us back to 2009 along with the decision to change his last name.
Maybe she was rethinking her life and feeling that her parents were the most stable influence and most dependable, in her opinion, of all her relationships when it came to looking out for her welfare. I think changing James’ name was a statement about something and probably intended to give a message to someone. I’m not sure who or why, but I doubt she (or anyone else) goes to that trouble without a reason. James was certainly old enough to have asked her about it or for it himself. I just don’t see Kaine wanting it or being affected by his not being the “chosen” name. Again, JMO.
Could James’ name change have had more to do with Eckert?
Yes there ia an argument of Moulton v Horman, but why not Tarver? and why drop Eckert?