Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
Related Posts
Related Posts:
2,458 Comments
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI
well if the person reporting the mustang to LE thought it was Terri, the driver must have red hair or otherwise be mistakeable for Terri whichever if Kaine’s vehicles she was driving, or if she was in a white truck, say.
was wearing a scarf and glasses, but definitely her vehicle.
B
vw says:
October 29, 2012 at 9:08 pm
(snipped)
I’ll find the list of guidelines LE asked the Skyline neighbors to use in talking to the press.
***************
vw, did you find the list? I’d love to see it. I cannot believe LE did this. WTH? Is this something done in all missing children cases? I don’t get this at all. When was this list given out to the neighborhood?
Something so wrong with Kaine Horman and LE telling people not to talk to the media. I just don’t understand this. No freakin’ wonder LE is stuck. If people had been more vocal about that morning, who knows what tip might have helped out. Sometimes all it takes is one person saying one thing and another saying something else to break a case wide open. Foolish IMO. Just foolish. It certainly appears that this procedure didn’t advance the case any. More than two years later, are people still waiting for LE to give the okay? Ugggh!
BTW, as far as Kim Holm goes, the only reason she was ever under my radar was because in her interview she states she was not there that day, yet her name is on the task force list as being there. (Qualifying, she may have just meant she wasn’t at the science fair, but was at the school later on, however that is not what she said.)
“Ecker’s parents remember James as being a curious and lively child. Horman legally changed his last name from Ecker to Moulton in January this year.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html
According to this report, that would have been January of 2010. The same month that Angela Rockwood said on her FB James moved in with them.
Just briefly. Did anyone talk about this. I’m not sure of the lingo (i.e. regarding the desired actual use of funds) but this is a commisioners board meeting in June, 2012.
Staton is asking them to change the funding.
http://multnomah.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=3&clip_id=446&meta_id=27017
Especially a woman that could be mistaken for TH.
mas says:
November 2, 2012 at 10:08 am
I do know there was an unidentified woman driving it following their separation, and it was reported to LE because they thought it was TH violating the RO.
B
************
Interesting, thanks Blink.
This article is So sad to read again, plus it just absolutely beats me as to why KH wouldn’t let the people he worked with talk to LE. If anything is beyond weird, this is. Everybody (reading link) was desperate to find Kyron, seems like everyone except his own daddy.
@T. Ruth says:November 2, 2012 at 12:45 pm
The horse ranch that Kaine Horman requested to be searched was in Banks. . . . This was searched the Sunday after Kyron disappeared, . . . I believe Sunday was the same day Kaine wrote the memo to his co-workers telling them not to talk to the media.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/ground_search_resumes_this_mor.html
Scarf & glasses imo indicates an intent Kaine’s friend to whom
he loaned the mustang wished to remain anonymous.
Not necessary for a babysitter.
@TRuth. LOL, Kaine probably drafyed the No Talking
points for LE to distribute to neighbors.
Malty says:
November 2, 2012 at 1:11 pm
Maybe Kaine thought Kyron might get his name changed to Young
Who knows?
———-
In oregon you cannot legally change a child’s sir name without the other parents permission. If you want that name to be a legal name issued on ID cards drivers license etc.
-snip
You cannot change your child’s name without the permission of his other legal parent, or for any fraudulent purpose.
see below legal process for name change of a minor child.
http://www.ehow.com/how_6112366_legally-change-child_s-name-oregon.html
Just reading through and noticing different things to think about –
If you are a member of the teachers’ union, you have individual professional liability insurance if you are sued in the context of your work. I cannot imagine any circumstance in which the union (local, state, or national) would hire attorneys for teachers who have not been charged or even threatened with a suit individually, and certainly not as a group. Each would need to submit a request for that benefit. If any conflict existed between the district and a teacher(s), the union would provide advice relating to contractual issues.
Teachers who pay their “Fair Share” but are not members of a union would not have the benefits given to regular members. Any teacher could pay for their own liability insurance but the cost would be very high.
PPS used to have their own legal department, but they opted to go for contract work instead. No doubt they have consulted with someone about this.
I want to be sure I understand. I get incompetence, mistakes, policies not followed, and the less said the better, but is anyone saying they think there is actually a conspiracy between teachers, staff, and district with the advice of their attorneys to hide evidence (silence, lost information, etc.) of their failures and to prevent anyone from being charged and/or sued? Or not?
————————————
Re name changing: A parent, bio or adoptive, has the right to object to a change of name for the child and must be notified of the proposed change, either personally or according to rules for posting. The exception is if the parent has never lived in the same home with the child or had a parental relationship with the child, including paying child support. Therefore, Ecker would have had to give his permission to change from his name to anything else. I just went through this with a domestic violence case. The court argued that the dad was supposed to be paying support, but the mother had waived the support based on domestic violence and the increased safety of no contact. Since the child had never lived with the father, she was allowed to change the child’s name without notification, and of course, did not want him to know what the new name would be. Under ordinary circumstances, if a parent has not lost or given up parental rights, you cannot change the last name of a child without both parents’ approval.
vw says:
November 1, 2012 at 6:53 pm (snipped)
“Maybe on her mind, too. But I think she wanted the transition to the second semester at the new school to have no snags. She started and got that name change done by the end of the first semester at Lincoln. Being immersed in the teaching field she knew that James needed no snags in Roseburg where his birth father and Grandparents, who might become Guardians, would have different last names.”
Schools can accept students living with someone else only so long as the parent provides proper notice that the non-parent has legal power to act in place of the parent for educational and medical purposes. (There are forms for that, or an attorney can do it.) I doubt if it would have made much difference to students or schools in Roseburg what James’ last name was given the number of kids who don’t match parents’ names or even siblings anymore. Also, the timeline for leaving PPS was much less important, if important at all, than the timeline of any school he would enroll in. Withdrawal grades and a recommended schedule are pretty easy to pass along, and it didn’t sound like he had much in the way of current credits to take with him.
There is another possibility – thinking about “Grandparents, who might become Guardians.” What if Terri was starting to think that something might happen to her and was making it clear what her choice of guardians for James would be? What could happen? She could be arrested for something she was involved in or planning, or she could be injured or killed. I have NO reason to think this, I’m just putting out there that this could be another reason she went to the trouble to change his name and wanted him to move. After all, at 18, he could pursue changing his name himself. Plus, if it wasn’t a permanent move, in her opinion, why change at all? It seems the reason would be more personal and less about schooling. What was she thinking about James’ future – and hers?
As for adoption – if Terri ever says she asked Kaine to adopt James, or he asked to do that, I will do a backflip right over the back of my office chair and pull the plug on my computer. I just can’t see that one at all. JMO, of course.
About the picture nobody wants to look at – I always thought they both had a few drinks first, then somebody yelled at Kaine to do whatever. JMO again, but when I look at his face, I see “naughty”, not “sexy” in that picture. To me, those aren’t the same things. That sort of behavior doesn’t present well in a photo – you had to be there, know them, and maybe had a few yourself. Why post it? Well, for whatever reason, they do seem to be a bit short in the “boundaries department”.
Briede mentions brand expansion intent…conveniently located he says near 24 hr fitness facilities:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/bob-briede/10/111/353?_mSplash=1
wonder why?
Me either.
RedRose says:
November 2, 2012 at 2:05 am
snip>
I don’t know anything, erose, et.al.,
@TRuth, Yes, in Banks, but perhaps someone connected to the Tarvers through 4H has a ranch in Banks. James and the Tarvers are the only horse connection I am aware of in Kyron’s circle.
IMO, The issue I see regarding JM is that:
1) KH would not think it was his responsibility to financially support him,
2) Ecker may have believed that
a) he should no longer be financially responsible (though it seems a court says he was) or
b) was unable to be financially responsible and
3) TH was not financially contributing to the household, so consequently the financial responsibility fell back on to KH at a time when a new financial responsibility was born in to the family.
Three kids, no child support coming in on one of them and only one parent working.
How different the circumstances then when they first met, when
1) TH was working and
2) collecting child support
3) DY could have been paying child support for Kyron. (She would in my state.)
Two boys, two checks, two parents working, cha-ching.
The conflict may have started with three kids, one parent working and one child support check coming in for Kyron, the kid that wanted to move back in with his Momma. That turns in to;
Two kids, no child support coming in, child support going out and one parent working.
@vw says:
November 2, 2012 at 2:54 pm
Thanks for that link. So, I’m not exactly sure what that means either, but when I read it, it sounds to me like the money some of us donated to the Kyron Horman Fund to help in the search efforts to find Kyron (this is not the Kyron Horman Foundation, Kaine runs btw) that was being held by LE was not ever used for anything. It sounds to me like they are now requesting to use that money to further the investigation. Just now? June 2012? Am I reading this correctly?
@Erose
I like your summary of the money situation
At the Horman house
They probably lived on the money they had
Then had to cut back
I really think Terri staying home was a mistake
If she only worked part time she would have
Some money and a few hours break
There is something sad about what happens when money
Gets tight in any family
@MBSings. PPS has in-house Counsel who,strangely imo, acts as Secretary of the BOEd rather than being accountable to them. She attended the BOE session on the bond last June per minutes. This has not prevented high
level Administrators from breaking state law on at least 2 occasions per
this article :
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/08/portland_public_schools_superi.html?mobRedir=false
PPB and MCSO did not declare the school a crime scene on 6-4-10, nor did they send a letter to the Supt
specifying records to be preserved. Therefore PPS had no obligations wrt the investigation.
Common sense says if MCSO struggled publically to create a list of all persons at the school,computer log in information was one objective source of identification. Moreover sites staff accessed during the school year was another avenue any astute lawyer with PPS would have IT look at in an internal investigation. (Did the pta call for an internal investigation btw?) Would the in house Counsel have any obligation to
disclose the results of an internal investigation? To the contrary, Absolutely not unless subpoenaed.
I believe vw’s question was whether the destruction of the
log in records was routine?
That is, did it generally occur at that time of month or year?
Did it generally occurr in other el eds at the same time
or was it unique to Skyline? One more thing media hasn’t asked of PPS.
After reading BOE minutes last June, especially discussing the bond,
and seeing the level of planning, imo PPS has much much bigger
problems that are systemic management problems than preserving evidence.
school systems regularly use outside firms for litigation, and PPS having both is typical
erose says:
November 2, 2012 at 9:33 pm
@TRuth, Yes, in Banks, but perhaps someone connected to the Tarvers through 4H has a ranch in Banks. James and the Tarvers are the only horse connection I am aware of in Kyron’s circle.
—————
IIRC, DeDe’s aunt has/had a farm in Banks that was searched. IDK if that is accurate or a rumor from Tom Jones aka Jonesr aka DDS’s cousin.
I never been out to Banks
What is that area like?
I guess my question would be
Could Kyron be out at Banks some where
Is it mostly farm land
I would like to see T Jones put on oath and testify
Or be quiet
Does he know anything or not
T. Ruth,
IIRC, Horman family friends Randy & Wendy St Marie owned a horse farm
in Banks. They also own a beauty shop – Tres Bon Salon. TH posted a New
Years eve get together they had with the couple on FB in 2009 (?)
http://tinyurl.com/a9j3zlt
Rose says:
November 2, 2012 at 1:22 pm
well if the person reporting the mustang to LE thought it was Terri, the driver must have red hair or otherwise be mistakeable for Terri whichever if Kaine’s vehicles she was driving, or if she was in a white truck, say.
was wearing a scarf and glasses, but definitely her vehicle.
B
********
That’s interesting. Who wears a scarf these days unless it’s a convertible? Someone trying to hide their ID? Heck Oregonians don’t even use umbrellas, mostly just hoodies. LOL
@Rose says:
November 2, 2012 at 6:55 pm
LOL, quite possibly, or he & TY. (There was obviously some mano-mano bonding going on between him and Kaine. Which I found really weird considering Kaine is Desiree’s ex-husband.)
Seriously, has anyone ever heard of LE issuing a list of what to say or not to say in any other case?
I have heard of them saying things that are shared that are case sensitive, all the time, and cannot be repeated.
And in some cases where LE believes a parents statement will have some sort of timely investigative effect, but such verbiage is not coming from anyone without the proper credentials in that area.
As far as telling a family what so say or what not to say outside of that, unless they want that introduced as possible evidence at some point, they had better not.
We all know the liberties taken by MCSO in this case have been broad, and likely are partially responsible for it’s stalling.
B
Well, whadda’ya’know . . . Tom Jones is now posting in the comments at
Oregon Live.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/10/terri_hormans_friend_dede_spic.html
Dude is a creeper. There, I said it.
B
erose says:
November 2, 2012 at 10:09 pm
IMO, The issue I see regarding JM is that:
1) KH would not think it was his responsibility to financially support him,
2) Ecker may have believed that
a) he should no longer be financially responsible (though it seems a court says he was) or
b) was unable to be financially responsible and
3) TH was not financially contributing to the household, so consequently the financial responsibility fell back on to KH at a time when a new financial responsibility was born in to the family.
Three kids, no child support coming in on one of them and only one parent working.
How different the circumstances then when they first met, when
1) TH was working and
2) collecting child support
3) DY could have been paying child support for Kyron. (She would in my state.)
Two boys, two checks, two parents working, cha-ching.
The conflict may have started with three kids, one parent working and one child support check coming in for Kyron, the kid that wanted to move back in with his Momma. That turns in to;
Two kids, no child support coming in, child support going out and one parent working.
————————————————-
IIFC – DY’s agreement with Kaine when she went to Canada was that she would not be asked to pay support. When she came back she had no income and big medical bills, and lived with her parents for a while. To my knowledge the state has nothing set up to trigger a review of support cases – a parent would have to request a change. Oregon has a child support schedule based on income and how much time a child spends with each parent, and also has some possible exceptions in certain circumstances.
The state can order support through it’s administrative function, and while it is true the parties agreed support was inappropriate at the time, that can be changed through motion the next day- specifically because Kaine outlined he had almost $700/mo in childcare.
Maybe Kaine went to court to ask for support from Desiree, but if he had, she might also have requested a look at custody/visitation which, although not directly connected, would at least have opened the door to reconsidering the arrangement. Considering that the amount he would have gotten from her would have been relatively small, he may not have thought it was worth the court costs and possibly opening the custody arrangement to review.
DY had no chance of regaining the custody she had, and I agree that Kaine would have sought support and legal fees for both.
A mortgage is a mortgage and heat is heat whether there is one person or 10. Obviously, there are some variations, but most of the extra cost of a child is related to clothing, food, toys and health supplies, family activities, school supplies, and medical care. I suspect Intel’s benefits are pretty good. Terri was getting unemployment for awhile. In general 60% of support is dedicated to fixed costs. It is based on a COMBINED income tally of both parents- it follows increases and decreases ( that are found non-temporary and unwillful as grounds for change of circumstances). Unless KH would seek a multiple child discount ( Kiara, and this was pre- so not included) TH income is not a consideration for any relief sought by DY.
I thought Ecker was still paying child support. Even if he was unemployed (haven’t heard that he was), he would be treated as though making minimum wage on the schedule for support. I’ve always wondered if he paid because he really loved Terri. It doesn’t make sense to us maybe, but it’s possible. I don’t think we’ve heard of him saying no to her about anything, according to his parents.
Both Terri and Kaine talked about her trying to compete again in bodybuilding – not something you’d consider if you were really hard up for money. As a matter of fact, perhaps one family gym membership rather than 2 would have been a way to save.
Even if Desiree regained custody, the arrangement could have included continuing medical expenses via Intel benefits. I’m sure money was sometimes an issue, but they could have done some planning and been fine from what we can see on the surface. My best friend raised 3 kids on her babysitting money and husband’s teaching salary and managed to pay for a lot of college expenses, vehicles, a couple of houses they bought for rental property, a boat, etc. She is the thriftiest person I ever knew. Not every one can do that, of course, but the Horman’s were hardly destitute unless there was something going on we don’t know about.
I can tell you Kaine’s income had increased considerably since DY was being paid support by Kaine. I believe strongly it was a factor in KH not being open to adjusting Ky’s custody. I don’t care what anyone says that it is not about the support. Bullpucky.
What we do know is that none of these people in Kyron’s life seemed to be able to work together about anything ever, except maybe who was driving to the visitation exchanges. I started to say “with the exception of Terri’s parents who always seemed ready to help”, but I don’t call that working together either – maybe if they had taught her how to save enough over the years to be a bit less dependent on a husband.
I have supported myself on my own. I recall I could not afford a sofa or living room furniture the first 6 months I owned my new house. My TV sat on a card table. Not fun, but one of the best experiences/lessons of independence in my life when I saved enough to not have to put it on a credit card and it was not a hand me down of some sort. This was after coming back from a rough start int he early years I am not sure it is a fair statement to say TH had that “dependent” issue wrt money. I have not heard that, to my knowledge there is no evidence of her ever filing a bktcy, and no evidence she secured school loans I could find. It is inaccurrate that she did not work at all, she did. Not saying she did not have financial dependency issues, but I am just not seeing any evidence of it per se.
I agree there may have been some money issues, but maybe the causes are less obvious to us – credit card debt, internet shopping, who knows.
@MBS- either I am having dejavu with your post or I responded to parts of it previously and you may have missed it, either way.. there are some things I can verify. Me in Bold.
Rolling hills and trees and steams – on the east side of the Coast Mountains, enough to still be fairly level. Very pretty. Actually, the whole west side of Portland is just beautiful. Skyline Drive runs across the entire “high point” of the hills that divide the Willamette Valley from Portland. You can drive it and look out either window for sweeping views in both directions. Lots of trees and heavy undergrowth all along each side of Skyline, but the Banks area, even Hillsboro, are fairly flat.
@Malty says: November 3, 2012 at 1:14 pm
I never been out to Banks
What is that area like?
If required, DudeCousin and FlyFriend can support each other’s sworn testimony that allegedly DDS directed both to post comments on various public forums on her behalf . . . and with dates of such postings preceeding the deposition. Yes?/No?
The dates of the postings are important, imo.
T. Ruth says:
November 2, 2012 at 11:33 pm
@vw says:
November 2, 2012 at 2:54 pm
Thanks for that link. So, I’m not exactly sure what that means either, but when I read it, it sounds to me like the money some of us donated to the Kyron Horman Fund to help in the search efforts to find Kyron (this is not the Kyron Horman Foundation, Kaine runs btw) that was being held by LE was not ever used for anything. It sounds to me like they are now requesting to use that money to further the investigation. Just now? June 2012? Am I reading this correctly?
@T.Ruth
Did I not give the link for this? I apologize. I’ve got so much stuff all over my desktop at other places I can’t keep things straight. I need a secretary for this intrique of mine.
I can’t find the actual presentation to the board of MC commissioners but her is the request that got approved with no discussion.
0
http://multnomah.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?meta_id=27018&view=&showpdf=1
Keep in mind, at the same time that they are discussing the chanelling of this 38,000 that there is no longer a reward for Kyron. What happened to the anonymous donation of 50,000 and the additional money that Desiree got for the reward?
It’s just a shame that noone except those of us putting posters up and sending the word out seem to want Kyron found. What if they are all wrong and TMH and Dede told them all they knew about Kyron? I know from experience that many people have never heard of him outside of the Northwest. And many more do not know what he looks like now…outside of Oregon. There were more lingering images of TMH on the AMW program than discussion of, and images of Kyron himself and what he would look like now. Nor did AMW relay a Reward. I’ve always thought that a reward of 100,000 or more might make an accomplice risk giving info to help find him.
@ Blink
Sorry for the diatribe. I shouldn’t say that I think some people don’t care about finding Kyron. I don’t know what they are thinking or their intent, or motivations. That’s like saying TMH/Dede hated Kyron and don’t want him found because they’ll get away with the perfect crime. I just get frustrated with all the games LE seems to be playing. I mean, why not just give reciprical discovery, have it all on the table, and let the jury and judges decide this suit and the divorce and the restraining order based on the truth of what LE and Kaine and TMH really know. Hint: they probably never are going to get any more out of Dede and TMH than they have now.
They will never get a syllable from either if they do not grant immunity, period. Look, they blew their case, if they ever had one- which I do not believe they ever did, not of the prosecutable variety.
His own parents are not calling them out, and they are not calling out the school their own child disappeared from. That’s it. I am repeating myself and nobody is any closer to finding this child.
Shameful.
B
Blink
The creeper has much to say about us here at this site
Also
LOL
I hope he screws up and gets his over debt self, owes IRS self
In big trouble soon
Well you will notice creeper has never even attempted to post here. There’s a reason for that. Let’s give his self a rest
B
@wpg
I always enjoy the Eagle
I think TJ is there to get to the Eagle
ROTFL, Malty you have a gift.
B
@wpg. Guess it took him
that long to find OLive site,
living in Calif & all.
Well, so why don’t they just offer immunity in return for information? Maybe to one or the other – they would probably work against each other then. Either way, with the lawyer she has, TMH will probably get off and go free. Who knows about her dingbat friend.
If LE offers immunity for telling what happened, the whole and total truth, at least Kyron gets back to his mommy and daddy.
It is my opinion that the universe has a way of dealing out justice. (and there is always that huge legal fee that will need to be paid…)
That said, is immunity ever applicable if LE finds out that a murder was committed by one or both?
@margie says: November 3, 2012 at 7:02 pm
@ Blink
They will never get a syllable from either if they do not grant immunity, period. Look, they blew their case, if they ever had one- which I do not believe they ever did, not of the prosecutable variety.
B
Who is Eagle for Freedom, anybody know? The zip code shows the person is from Medford. I thought that people were thinking it was TMH.
TJ sounds like he is JasonW — they both sound pretty much the same.
Is DeDe living in Medford?? Could she be Eagle for Freedom?
@Malty says:November 3, 2012 at 8:13 pm
@wpg
I always enjoy the Eagle
I think TJ is there to get to the Eagle
ROTFL, Malty you have a gift.
B
@Malty. I just uselessly read there. Dumb me.
Bout the most useless stuff I’ve seen.
I am surprised OL has not closed
comments.
He’s using it to promote his facebook blog. He just did so.
Of course if Eagle follows his advice to click on his name fot FB,
he will indeed have her personal info.
OT Speer. http://www.powelltribune.com/news/item/10298-police-abduction-suspect-made-confession
1) confessed. 2) family member informed LE of his porn addiction 3) his children were placed in protective custody (from pt3, I infer which family member knew & didn’t inform on him prior).
@Malty. Just for the record I adore Eags. Strongly doubt she’s any of the players as she has, at times, made statements suggesting “odd” advice for each. She takes a lot of flack but has consistently been Kyron’s #1 advocate. If she responds to the ones sent there to heckle from the “Creepy” side, she is nearly always polite. (btw. She has some great vids of Janis Joplin)
@All Don’t know if you’ve seen this. But some are wondering about the silence of the hill. Skyline, that is. I just came across this yesterday:
http://srnpdx.org/kyron-vigil-media-advice
Before the early vigil on the hill, Skyline neighborhood was asked by MCSO to NOT discuss with media:
• The day of the disappearance
• Feelings about members of the family
• Speculations about the case or who you think is involved in Kyron’s disappearance
• Things you’ve observed that may pertain to the case – call those in to the sheriff
And to avoid negative comments about the school and MCSO.
k, we have an issue, I need and require just one hat, k?
B
Okay, I’m feeling a little bit disappointed here . . . are margie and vw the same poster?
Yes, it is my understanding VW was unaware of the one hat policy and nothing nefarious.
See next post.
B
Bullpucky is right. Note the quote, “Controlling with *my* money.” In WA State I know of a woman who wanted to refuse accepting child support payments in exchange for no visitation, no ties, to the child’s father. Could not be done. Child support and visitation are seperate issues to my understanding.
The child support is for the child, and parents do not have the right to circumvent that right. Indigent parents (and maybe even prisoners) are accessed a minimum of $25 per month, whether they have the ability to pay or not. It becomes a debt, subject to collection and in some cases, jail time.
People in this state can lose drivers and business licenses for not making efforts towards paying child support. One complaint by the parent not receiving a payment and the state garnishment process starts. Of course this can only be court ordered when a parent brings it to the attention of the court.
snips>
In January 2002, Horman and Ecker were divorced. She got primary custody of James and the decree included an informal agreement that Ecker would pay about $169 a month in child support.
A year later, Horman went to Washington County authorities, asking for more child support. His payments were bumped up to nearly $550 a month. Ecker went to Horman’s house to ask for a break on child support, saying the payments were cutting a big chunk out of his salary. She seemed amenable to a reduction, he said, but the next day he got a call from the Washington County Sheriff’s Office, telling him to stop harassing his ex-wife.
Ecker has not seen James since that call and still pays child support. He estimates he’s contributed about $46,000.
Terri also told friends that Kaine tried to control her spending.
“Controlling with my money — yeah,” Kaine said, “because she was spending all of it. She was going out and spending it like water and not checking with me where we should be spending our money.”
For the past two years she has been on unemployment and contributed as much as she could to the household expenses.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html
Three years later, they filed for divorce. At the time the couple agreed James would stay with Terri Moulton Horman and visit Ecker three times a week. “I love him very much, and he calls me dad and always has,” Ecker wrote in court records.
Although it’s not been made public, court records reveal that in 2008—a year after she married Kaine Horman—Terri Moulton Horman wrote the court, saying Ecker had ceased all contact with the family for three years. Washington County ordered him to start paying $493 a month, and the issue has since faded from the public record.
http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12134-troubled_family.html
I know Rose spent a lot of time reviewing this, but to think that Ecker went from James calling him Dad, and visiting him 3X a week in 2002 to having no contact in 2005. Maybe his visitation started as informally as his support payments and he never established a legal visitation schedule. Ends up that he is ordered to pay almost $500/month for a kid he never sees. She called to cops of him once.
Speculation: Did she do it again Christmas 2009? Did he want to see his kid? Was he told to catch up on his support first? A child has the right to support from both parents, but also has a right to visit with the non-custodial parent (unless they are of potential danger to the child). However, where many people get confused, is visitation cannot be bought. Did KH fight with Ecker? on Christmas? over visitation and support? Did he bully Ecker, like he did DY, when it came to the kids? All MOO.
Got it. Resigned in.
Full disclosure as are my rules: Vw=Margie
B
@All
Nothing nefarious at all about my name. Had signed in a long time ago as VW. Then changed to Margie as i, briefly and erroneously, thought the “creepies” on another page would harass this page. But realizing Blink would moderate changed back to VW but still had the “margie” entombed somehow. Anyway, she’s got it fixed. I also post as Vwoolf on Olive (not so much anymore as it stopped being discussion a long time ago)
and have a blog in which I record my road trips around the west. And I post posters of Kyron on these trips, especially in border and small towns. Hence my concerns about the Reward and other such things.
I’m very sorry about the confusion. I tried signing vw/marg with some posts but it didn’t take as I forgot most of the time. No games. Just didn’t know the format well enough.
Please read above everyone, I can verify this. VW- you are all clear with me, and I appreciate you ‘splaining – was an honest error, all good.
B
Well I liked VW
Never read Margie
I was unstanding this was
A local person
No one likes a blog where everyone is the same person talking to themselves
So the rule is good
VW is sound, she posted upthread Malty.
B
MockingbirdSings says:
November 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm
erose says:
November 2, 2012 at 10:09 pm
Blink says:
@MBS- either I am having dejavu with your post or I responded to parts of it previously and you may have missed it, either way.. there are some things I can verify.
@Blink – I think I didn’t make my perspective very clear – sorry. It was my birthday and I didn’t reread it as many times as I usually do before posting. I don’t think I have missed anything you have said previously – hopefully. I was responding to erose’s suggestion that there was a big financial change (negatively) for Terri and Kaine during their marriage. My comments about mortgage and household expenses weren’t to argue a legal point of view, but to say that even if Ecker had stopped paying child support for some reason, I don’t think it would have overwhelmed their budget unless they were over their heads financially in some other way and really depending on that money to stay afloat – and I don’t see any indication of that.
I am familiar with (have lived through) the state and county laws about child support, custody, etc. I also agree that Terri did work and had supported herself from time to time. And I was only referring to Terri being dependent financially in the sense that she may have felt she couldn’t move out if she wanted to and make enough money to be able to keep custody of Kiara compared to what Kaine had to offer – thinking of her feelings about it, not that it would have necessarily played out that way in a court. (Also, one of the arguments Kaine had to offer in a custody case was Kiara’s relationship with Kyron if he wanted to make a case for keeping siblings together.)
If there really was a MFH proposal, could divorce and custody issues have been enough to make her consider such a desperate move?
What I was trying to say was that I didn’t see such a critical financial situation, existing or potential, in what we know of the families involved that would be so serious as to cause anyone – Kaine, Terri, or anyone else – to benefit from or to be motivated enough to cause one little boy to disappear. Do you? Not saying anyone would be happy about paying support, and I’m sure Kaine would not want to pay a bundle of money to Desiree for support, but would all of this connect in any way to Kyron’s disappearance?
So when Desiree said in her open letter to Terri that if she had known the situation was so dire, she would have come and gotten Kyron – do you think “dire” had anything to do directly with money problems between Terri and Kaine? If Desiree couldn’t go to court and successfully change the custody agreement as things existed (to her knowledge), what did she find out that made her think she could just come and get him? (Or do you think she was just trying to reach Terri anyway she could?)
Do you think sending James away meant Terri didn’t have to give the child support money to Kaine any longer and could that have been one reason she moved him out?
Bottom line – based on what all these people were thinking and feeling (not what might or might not have been possible legally, and if we exclude for the time being any possible debts, drug sales, and everything else “on the side” that people have speculated about), what role does money or fear of losing money play in this case? Was Kaine behind on his mortgage payments? Was Terri’s spending just annoying to Kaine or was it actually hurting them financially? If we follow the money issues, does that lead us anywhere?
If we don’t know WHAT happened to Kyron, it seems the only other question we can ask to lead us to “what” is WHY?
Happy Belated Birthday MBS! I understand and agree with your point, thanks.
Personally, I don’t think finances were a “dire” issue considering the very large 40th dinner party Kaine organized for Terri, and the large purchase of rims/tires for the “stang”. I think DY was referring to personal conflicts between KH and TH. I mean, to identify with a woman she knew had been alleged to hire a landscaper to off her husband, she had to have been through ( at least her perception) a similar emotional place- and was not financial.
@VW, This is a snip from the Kyron Vigil & Media Advice Letter you posted (thank you). To me it looks like the opinions of Cindy Banks. Why would she do this? Especially about negative comments about the school. Thoughts?
(Also, I remember you posting awhile back, and saying you were having a hard time signing in under the same name. I think you were even signing both names at the end of your posts for awhile. fwiw.)
Media Suggestions
Cindy Banks (owner Brooks Hill Historic Church) offers the following knowledgable suggestions regarding talking with the press:
6/15/10 I talked to the sheriff’s office today and asked about the relationship between the media and people in our neighborhood. The sheriff’s office expressed their sympathy for the impact this event has had on the neighborhood and they understand how sad and how intrusive this has been for everyone. They also understand that people need to talk about their feelings and experience. They do not discourage anyone from talking about how they feel or talking to the press.
These are my thoughts about what would be helpful. These are my personal opinions, these are not guidelines from the Sheriff’s office.
@Redrose
Thanks for info on Banks I need to ck it out
All I know of Banks is my coworkers from there were excused on snow days
Where we had to drive it
I have no idea who Eagle is but she/he has constantly posted the same message
for 21/2 years that the school /PPS lost Kyron
This poster uses links to back up what they post and is untouched by insults
Or put downs
There have been many rumors who this person is
I just don’t care I enjoy their style and message
@ All
Regarding the calls in December.
I’ve yet to get this up as an adjunct to my blog, but I can tell you this. I’ve made several trips to the downtown courthouse. It was December 17-19th that Houze filled out a request to BOEC for these dates in order to find out more information. I made a photo of this request. He listed the phone #’s 503-922-2237 or 503-703-6076. Under “other information” he said “ambulance called”. He requested CAD incident printouts, radio dispatches and anything else the Bureau of Emergency Contacts could provide.
I’m not sure if the phone #’s are Kaine’s or house or TMH’s. I heard (don’t quote me) that Kaine had had
a medical emergency. But if that were the case, why would Houze want the that data?
Of course the BOEC declined to give him the info he wanted, citing the “investigation” and that MCSO told them directly to not release it to him.
I will try tomorrow to get the other three requests by Houze up in a format that is viewable.
PS. Don’t think Ecker was involved in this. Like I mentioned, I briefly saw the file on the name change. If I can get it again I’ll look for Ecker’s name. But I know this much. It went thru (the change) so he must have approved it, legally. I guess that means they must have had a conversation about it. Also, IIRC, no mention has been made of why Ecker stopped visiting James. Could be he didn’t get along with Kaine or for other reasons personal to his life. Sounds like he was having a tough time, financially.
Do you have a photobucket or if you want you can send me the images and I could create an album from mine?
Make sure you extract your EXIF data.
B
erose says:
November 3, 2012 at 11:58 pm
“Although it’s not been made public, court records reveal that in 2008—a year after she married Kaine Horman—Terri Moulton Horman wrote the court, saying Ecker had ceased all contact with the family for three years. Washington County ordered him to start paying $493 a month, and the issue has since faded from the public record.”
“Ecker has not seen James since that call and still pays child support. He estimates he’s contributed about $46,000.”
Rough estimate of child support owed:
$169 x 12 months of 2002 = $2028
$550 x 60 months of 2003 – 2008 = $33000
$493 x 12 months of 2009 = $5916
Total so far: $40944
Plus $493 x 7 months (Jan – July of 2010) = $3451
Total: $44395
Given that I didn’t have the exact dates, it comes out pretty close to Ecker’s estimate of his child support payments. So, unless he wasn’t being truthful, and I have no reason to doubt him, he was not behind on support payments at the time he made this statement.
In 2008 the court reviewed and lowered his payment. But it doesn’t make sense to me that he would have been 3 years behind in 2008 and been able to catch up with approximately $19800 by 2010 or that she would have waited 3 years to deal with it. I’m not sure what the 3 years has to do with anything except the calculation of how much time each parent spends with the child for the purpose of figuring out the proportion each parent pays. He could have been as little as a month or 2 behind – or not behind at all and she went to court to ask for an increase in support. If she was only asking to have the state collect support for her, I doubt they would have reviewed the amount.
Do we know what month in 2008 Terri went to court? Kiara was born in November.
Was it less about James and more about having another child to consider? Could it have been an effort to increase support in response to Kaine being upset about having another child? Just a thought.
——————————————————-
@erose – your comments about child support in Washington are similar to what is expected in Oregon, but it is possible to waive support in cases of domestic violence where there is danger to the parent and child.
I can’t be critical of Kaine’s comment about “my money” and then “spending our money” because I don’t know what she was doing with the money and why, and what sort of “understanding” they did or didn’t have about finances. I have to make it more of a 50-50 at fault thing – they should have gotten counseling and come up with a budget, and both should take responsibility for that failure.
(“Controlling with my money — yeah,” Kaine said, “because she was spending all of it. She was going out and spending it like water and not checking with me where we should be spending our money.”)
I have a good friend whose husband was quite concerned about her spending, and rightfully so. He hired an accountant and gave her a generous budget and she has (for years)had to meet with the accountant once a month to go over her finances. She agreed that she needed that help – and she was a math teacher!
There are lots of ways to deal with financial problems, and she said it saved their marriage because she could fuss about the accountant and not be mad at her husband.
Hours later I see the Eagle on Toms FB
Saying the same message plus links
How this amuses me
LOL