Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron

 

 

Civil As An Oxymoron

 

Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.

Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.

Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission,  she  entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.

Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later.  The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.

Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.

The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010.   Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.

The legal community however, not so much.  The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.

Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.

Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it.   He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.

I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.

That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.

On  June  4,  2010,  Terri  Horman,  acting  alone  or  in  concert  with  others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School.  Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.

 

 

Did Not Miss The Memo

 

The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is  worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”

It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less.  In pertinent part:

“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother.  The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation  …” (emphasis added by me)

 

Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.

While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement.  At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything?  Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?

For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation-  is he  privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?

A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming.   Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record?  It has not been.

Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:

“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.

Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.

He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook). 

 Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time. 

 Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations. 

 The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004). 

 Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”

 

In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:

 

A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person.  Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:

 

…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.

The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”

Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance.   He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:

The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:

1.  Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations?  If so, by when and for how long?

2.   Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?

3.   Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?

 Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case.  Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.

 

Defacto Suspect  Is Defacto Parent?

History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children,  their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone.  In fact, as we all know,  it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators  begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.

A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle.   This case is anything but.

Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that-  who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?

In Horman’s favor,  Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.

Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?

Like, say,  a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s  attorney fees ?

For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark,  I cringed at writing it.

When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond  its tensile strength to support,  many possibilities of alternative defense strategies  become available to the DEFENDANT.

Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations.   However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right,  as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.

“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal

Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest,  it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.

Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.

According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”

Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site.  Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit.  More on that in part 2 of this series.

In summary,  Desiree Young is making three allegations.  She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri  kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School.   Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:

“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young

 Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media.  Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation.  How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff?   How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did,  about unknown subject matter,  equate to probable cause of the allegation?

What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly?  Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.

Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”

 

 

Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements  stalking horse.   Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case,  that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent.   Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.

Bruce McCain, could not be more on point.  The burden to prove the allegations against Terri  Horman  rest squarely on her accuser.  MCSO recently participated in the filming of  Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions.  They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.

Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the  possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case.  Will it be a game of quash for all?  Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.

“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO

I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview.  I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking  comment.  ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )

 

The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason.  Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.

If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?

You  have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.

Technically speaking, under Oregon law,  Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent.    The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case.  Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.”  (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)

 

I asked  Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy  to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :

 

“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case.  You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.-  One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-  

The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”

 

 

The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.

Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:

5.        Wilson and Wilson,  184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524.  Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather,  along with parties’  joint child, reversed.   Under   Troxel,  custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother.  [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]

 

 

Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.

 

 “.. our Lives are no longer private.  Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..”    Tony Young,  Kyron Horman’s stepfather.

 

What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be  the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman,  her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury.   They will have to remove the more than deserving,  grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo,  and they have enough to work with.  There is no way around it as unfair as it seems,  it is what it is.

EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as  Desiree Davidson  was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier.   She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later.  David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree,  but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well.  The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.

In March of 2004,  Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed,   non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases.  Ms. Young maintained a  Seattle, WA address  at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.

If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month,  then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility.  The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused  to discuss. You get the idea.

Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider  modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her.  Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but  Terri Horman was in favor of it.

Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.

How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?

Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.

For the past 2+ years Desiree Young  has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that.  I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.

Catch as Catch Can

Omitted entirely in any coverage of  Judge Kantor’s order and memo  announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.

Under current criminal procedure in Oregon,  once a person is indicted,  the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order.   This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.

In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect,  the plaintiff will be forced to compel  witnesses that have testified before the grand jury,  any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant.  In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing.  And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s  dominion.

While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board.   That said, I would expect  District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing  any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.

How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of  “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”

The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce  incriminating  and usable intelligence to indict her.

It will not  provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.

I can hear the protagonists in my ear already-  but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?

Who in their right mind believes that  nine multi-disciplined Federal  and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?

The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing,  whereby  DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.

Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision.   The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests.  Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.

 

What- No Joinder?

 

Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action.  If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant.  Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.

The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous.  Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.

If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.

The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.

 

If she was involved,  in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case.  It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not.  This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

 

It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.

 

I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.

~ Anthony Lagouranis

 

Astute.  True.  Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-

If tortboarding will not work,  at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?

Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.

 

When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.

The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)

Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?

And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?

Coming Soon- Part 2

 

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2,458 Comments

  1. Cindy says:

    Was Kiara appointed at GAL?

  2. Cindy says:

    Sorry, bad fingers this a.m. Was Kiara appointed a GAL? Had TH contested the ex parte, she likely would have.
    no.
    B

  3. @erose
    I will check, I have extensive phone records

  4. Rose says:

    slamdunk to bearly & erose.
    When Kaine was out of the house BRIEFLY in 2010, he was in Banks?
    Who did he live with?
    (addy for the phone no)

  5. Rose says:

    I’ve heard of husbands hiding bank accounts,
    but a phone number?
    in Banks?

  6. nate0419 says:

    I have been thinking about Desiree not including the school, Detective Staton of things we wish we didn’t know and Kaines 4 to 5 years . What if these three things revolved around the Teachers Union lawyers and the immediate shutdown of information from the school during that 1st weekend? It has occurred to me that in 4 to 5 years the 8th graders at Skyline would be 18 years old. Does going from a minor to an adult give DY & KH a path to gain access to the children’s testimony as to what happened that day/what they saw?

  7. January says:

    bearlyhere says: November 5, 2012 at 2:52 am

    From my perch on the fence I tend to agree with you, great post!

  8. Tarheel says:

    Was it ever verified that Kaine was seeing someone outside of the marriage to Terri? Do we know who that was? Have we explored the possibility that it could have been them, their husband, or an ex wanting revenge on Kaine?

    Also, the memo Kaine sent to co-workers at Intel to keep quiet makes me wonder what he thought they knew and might tell? Perhaps an office romance?

    I know the identity of the person in question, to my knowledge, no associations have been made outside of TH being aware ( or at least thought he was) of it. To my knowledge Kaine maintained they were just colleagues.
    B

  9. Rose says:

    maybe the faculty room became the volunteer room.
    http://srnpdx.org/ramona-huserik-remembers
    human interest story from a former Skyline teacher:
    “The basement also served as the playground during snow days
    until the shed area behind the school was roofed.
    Even the faculty room was housed in the multi-purpose basement”

  10. T. Ruth says:

    @erose says:
    November 4, 2012 at 7:27 am
    http://www.shleifermarketing.com/Kyron-Horman-case-touches-everyone.htm

    A moving candlelight prayer vigil at the Sunset Presbyterian Church was organized by a volunteer team led by Becky Anderson Owens, the mother of two small children.

    “I went to high school with Kaine [Kyron’s father] and we reunited as friends years later when we both moved to the Portland area,” said Anderson Owens. “We just wanted to help bring Kyron home.”

  11. mas says:

    erose says:
    November 5, 2012 at 5:06 am

    Blink, I can only wonder two things about this phone #. Either KH lived in Banks when he was temporarily out of the house in 2010, or he is tied to someone in Banks, and has a phone in his name with the billing address going to that person’s address in Banks.

    snip off the google page search>
    Before that, Kaine lived in Banks, OR from 2010 to 2010.

    http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS366US366&q=don+abbey#hl=en&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS366US366&sclient=psy-ab&q=kaine+horman+%2B+banks+oregon&oq=kaine+horman+%2B+banks+oregon&gs_l=serp.12…66049.74513.1.76908.35.31.0.2.2.5.309.6026.0j22j8j1.31.0.les%3B..0.0…1c.1.-Al4NZwJYw8&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=1b5b849ef3dd5694&bpcl=37189454&biw=1104&bih=580

    ***********

    Just to note, the phone that is registered to Horman household on Shelterednook is in Terri’s name and Kaine is not listed at all. You would have thought that after 2 years Kaine would have transferred the account into his name (whitepages updates yearly, iirc).

    http://www.whitepages.com/name/Terri-Horman/Portland-OR/78u12sw

  12. T. Ruth says:

    Former pastor of Sunset Presbyterian was Ron Kincaid, not far from there was this organization’s office, Orphans Overseas run by Jorie Kincaid. Is this his wife? Have we already discussed this here? (Creeps me out that people who looked this up on wiki also were looking up The Second Mile info.)

    http://www.corporation dot wiki.com/Oregon/Portland/jorie-kincaid/54948854.aspx

    http://www.orphansoverseas.org/

    Sunset Presbyterian’s FB:

    https://www.facebook.com/sunsetpres

  13. Malty says:

    Very interesting about that Banks Oregon
    I wish I had drove out there while I worked over there
    close
    I just wonder if Kyron could be in that location
    Some place

  14. Malty says:

    As far as spending goes and I spend
    But if you just brought a house
    Do you also buy a fancy red mustang for the drive way
    Why not a economy car for Terri to be able to get
    around
    Seems more sensible

  15. vw says:

    Sorry. Sis broke her hip. Was going to try to look into numbers.

    erose says:
    November 4, 2012 at 6:55 pm
    @VW, I veromi(ed) the two phone numbers you listed. The 6076 goes to someone with several numbers and connections to among other places Banks OR and San Bernadino CA.

    http://www.veromi.com/Search.aspx?sType=phone&db=&phone=5037036076

    @ersose. The # you looked up is consistent with the 6/26/10 call for tresspass/custodial issues from the house. The other number, 503-922-2237 is for the “custodial issues” only. So, Houze wanted to research one number for the Rudy Sting at about 5pm and two numbers for the custodial issues. I think that is consistent with someone calling TMH back to tell her that she could not file an abducted child report cuz Kaine had a right to take Kiara? Was this the home phone?

  16. erose says:

    @Rose, Cannot say for sure that phone# is tied to Banks, but it looks like that phone # is tied to other phone #, one of which ties in to Banks, San Bernadino and another interesting spot is Lincoln City (on the coast).

    erose says:
    November 4, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    @VW, I veromi(ed) the two phone numbers you listed. The 6076 goes to someone with several numbers and connections to among other places Banks OR and San Bernadino CA.

    http://www.veromi.com/Search.aspx?sType=phone&db=&phone=5037036076

  17. erose says:

    @Rose, Cannot say for sure that phone# is tied to Banks, but it looks like that phone # is tied to other phone #, one of which ties in to Banks, San Bernadino and another interesting spot is Lincoln City (on the coast). So glad Blink will figure it out, I at the end of what I can do.

    erose says:
    November 4, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    @VW, I veromi(ed) the two phone numbers you listed. The 6076 goes to someone with several numbers and connections to among other places Banks OR and San Bernadino CA.

    http://www.veromi.com/Search.aspx?sType=phone&db=&phone=5037036076

  18. January says:

    I thought this information about the statute of limitations regarding kidnapping was interesting, thought I’d share:

    http://www.ehow.com/about_6607822_statute-limitations-kidnapping.html

  19. erose says:

    @TRuth, Yes, thank you, I remember Becky. Was Rachel an alumn of Shoreline, too, and a member of Sunset?

  20. Rose says:

    I thot you meant the photo you took of the motion with the phone nos. was related to Dec 09 911.
    Are you saying the photo you took was for date of sting only?
    wrt the identity of the person in question, if Kaine told Terri they were “just colleagues,” I infer that person was an Intel employee. And if an Intel employee, she/he could easily have left Intel in the mustang for awhile that morning and tge Sauvie situng been true. . Was that person polyed I wonder?

  21. Rose says:

    pardon my stupidity, but how do you tie cell nos.
    into more towns than the billing address?

  22. vw says:

    I’m confused now. Which number is TMH’s? And is that consistent with the number on the restraining order?

    @mas

    Just to note, the phone that is registered to Horman household on Shelterednook is in Terri’s name and Kaine is not listed at all. You would have thought that after 2 years Kaine would have transferred the account into his name (whitepages updates yearly)

    Interesting, and thanks, mas. Could be that Kaine did not pay all the bills? Could TMH have had to pay all Comcast related bills? Usually phones these days are bundled with wi-fi, tv, etc.
    Too busy paying for a pretty car that would be his? Hmmmm…?

  23. wpg says:

    Blink,

    I’m thinking that TH never called 911 on RS prior to the June 26 “sting” 13-minute 911 call.

    Thoughts?

  24. vw says:

    @Rose, Cannot say for sure that phone# is tied to Banks, but it looks like that phone # is tied to other phone #, one of which ties in to Banks, San Bernadino and another interesting spot is Lincoln City (on the coast). So glad Blink will figure it out, I at the end of what I can do.

    Thanks rose and erose. That’s kinda wierd. I thought Kaine’s relatives/friends lived in coastal northern CA. San B is heart of SoCal. Banks is on the way to Lincoln City. Lincoln City was where DD shot the cop?

  25. Malty says:

    Could these numbers have something to do with Intel
    Contacts
    With out a job description on Kaine
    It makes checking him out

  26. Malty says:

    Hard To check out Kaine unless you know his job contacts

  27. Malty says:

    Are there people who answer to Kaine but work at home
    As is becoming more popular
    Lots more needs to be known about his job in my opinion

  28. Idahogal says:

    erose says:
    November 4, 2012 at 7:27 am
    Snipped>>>

    Just dawned on me that the vigil was held at Sunset Presbyterian Church, the same church that did volunteer work at the school. So who was the ***church member*** that organized the vigil, was it MC or Rachel Hansen? I know they co-organized the vigil, and they both went to HS with KH, but which one of them was a member of the church? And were they with the church at Skyline for the cleanup day?

    ————-
    @erose- I don’t recall Rachel Hansen, the woman I saw on the news and spoke with was Becky Owens. IDK if she was a member at that church or not, but she definitely was very involved at the beginning with the banners and vigil arrangements. Also, IIRC she went to HS with MC and Kaine. I never saw her on/in the news again after the alleged MFH was made public.

    ————–

    I must admit I cried over little Kyron today, it is a never ending ache in my soul. I am so damn frustrated with the status of this case, not knowing is the worst, IMHO.
    Another thought that crossed my mind today…there are so many sloughs and wetlands around here. In addition to the woods, rivers, and ocean there are those. So many places that are remote, secluded, etc. Blink, I hope and pray that you are first in line to file a FOIA in this case, the very idea gives me some hope.

  29. Ode says:

    Did I read that TJ was brought up on a pig farm?

  30. Malty says:

    And so much out source work every where
    Now I suppose Intel does their share
    Of out sourcing to cut costs
    We know so little about Kaine
    But I kind of believe he had lunch with female
    Co workers
    And had friends
    I always had friends both of both sex and
    Often had lunch with them
    A break for job stress
    A few rumors and laughs

  31. Ode says:

    Please ignore my last post. It was not TJ but a dog connected to someone who knows someone discussed hear today. How is that for wierd.

  32. erose says:

    @Malty, Best to your husband, may he feel better soon.
    @vw, Best to your sister, hope she is on the mend.

    That phone number is registered to KH. It is also tied to other phone #’s. They tie into the cities I posted based on a phone # Veromi search. On that google link I posted, it seems that KH got that phone in 2010, and it says, I assume based on when the phone was activated, that KH lives in Banks OR. I don’t think it was the home phone. Veromi could be reporting on KH only, or if that phone is tied into someone else’s address, then those cities could be attributed to someone else. But clearly, someone KH knows.

    That other number you posted is a non listed #. I thought maybe an attorney, but IDK.

  33. Leslie Alexander says:

    From what I recall very early on to request my Kyron wrist band I sent the request to a P.O. box in Banks Oregon.
    It is a very small town. My Grandparents lived there their whole lives and my Father was born and raised there. Whenever I read or heard the words “Banks Oregon” I always felt like it was Grandma’s way of saying hello from heaven. Such a tiny and not much ever happens there.
    Been reading here since day one and to see the mention of Banks made me think about that P.O. box. Prays to Desiree and family.

  34. Rose says:

    It seems to me if there was any suggestion of Kaine having an affair, and surely told not just Terri but MCSO her take on his habits, then that identified person should’ve been polyed.

  35. Rose says:

    that’s Desiree told, I hope.. habits that is

  36. MockingbirdSings says:

    About Kaine being asked to keep an eye on Terri re PPD – apparently this is a common practice now – to ask the husband/father to report any concerns if there is a risk or indication of PPD. Many men, IMO, are not naturally good observers of changes in a woman’s mood or thinking. (They don’t get PMS or menopause, either.) I’m sure there are some who do, but nobody I know. When a baby is born, the father finds himself in the middle of a lot of new distractions he also didn’t expect.

    In my family, the doctor asked the father to “keep an eye” on the mother because she had previously dealt with PPD. The first thing my entire family (including the mother) did was to say he isn’t going to get it. Then we made of chart of which of us was going to check each day, what symptoms we were looking for, who would be the backup person to confirm our suspicions, who would call the doctor, a temporary schedule to be sure we did not leave her alone at all (in addition to the father) until the PPD was under control. The parents had taken a class, he had a brochure – it just didn’t help.

    I cannot imagine Kaine being naturally competent to handle that task. I also don’t know how he defines a “mental health medication.” He may have thought PPD was related to hormones and not even labeled it a mental health issue.

    I am NOT saying he’s right – I’m saying we suspect him of lying sometimes when it’s entirely possible he’s simply clueless and ought to have done his homework before he opened his mouth.

    Thanks to those who wished me a happy birthday. Now that I’m 70, I ought to go to one of his car show booth events and give him a piece of my mind, but I’d probably just feel sorry for him and buy a T-shirt. :)

  37. wpg says:

    Whoops, just saw your reply, vw . . . thank you.

    vw says:
    November 4, 2012 at 2:51 pm
    (snipped)
    @wpg. Just looked at my photos. Short answer. No. Two for calls on 6/26 and one for calls, etc. at the school when Kaine and TMH got there after school. I will get them into a (new) blog and will let you know. I’ll try for the end of the week. Don’t worry…won’t keep saying “wait for it…Lol”

  38. Cindy says:

    Cindy says:

    November 5, 2012 at 9:00 am

    Sorry, bad fingers this a.m. Was Kiara appointed a GAL? Had TH contested the ex parte, she likely would have.
    no.

    So, no GAL for Kiara, what a disservice to this little girl, MOO. In a case such as this, why would Terri not petition the court to have one appointed?

  39. erose says:

    This article (circa 2008?) has Risk in NJ, might he have relocated to Banks?

    After 29 years at Intel, Alan Risk retired in 2001. While at Intel, Alan worked at the Sunnyvale, Santa Clara, Aloha, Chandler and Folsom sites. During his tenure, Alan was able to live his passion of racing cars. He has now retired his racing helmet for a riding helmet — “2008 Olympics, here I come!” He tells his trainer it’s a good goal to shoot for! He will never regret the time he spent with Intel, and believes it is by far the most professional and well managed company in the world. Since retiring, Alan has gotten involved in rescuing retired race horses, and wrote this story to tell you about the work he’s been doing.

    http://www.intel.com/employee/retiree/intouch/profiles/risk.htm

  40. vw says:

    @mbs.
    I am NOT saying he’s right – I’m saying we suspect him of lying sometimes when it’s entirely possible he’s simply clueless and ought to have done his homework before he opened his mouth.

    Thanks to those who wished me a happy birthday. Now that I’m 70, I ought to go to one of his car show booth events and give him a piece of my mind, but I’d probably just feel sorry for him and buy a T-shirt.

    *******

    So true. Clueless and narcissitic enough to believe he isn’t? I saw some experts in the east discussing this part of the case. The PPD. All women…and all concluded that the normal PPD period had elapsed before the “erratic TMH behavior according to KH” began. In other words, most PPD abnormal behaviour toward your children happens well before the MFH, etc. Wasn’t Kiara already 18 mos by the time of the alledged MFH?

    And happy, happy birthday! I’d love to go with you. I’ve been in the same area with him at the garage sales, etc. But couldn’t bring myself to confront him. We could at least ask him about the reward that is no more.

  41. Malty says:

    @ode
    If you are trying for laugh
    You got mind :)

  42. Malty says:

    @MBS
    Welcome to the 70′s I am in this age also
    It is great to get pass the years where you worry
    What people think
    If I ever did or you ever did

    Women have problems that men do not understand and never will
    In my opinion
    I am not sure we understand our own moods
    And downs
    They use to talk of baby blues
    I saw one of Kaines interviews where he said Terri’s
    Mom was always there
    She probably was there to help with the baby
    And PPD

  43. erose says:

    Not at all, it was the veromi search of that number, which pulled up other numbers in the XXX-XX-XXXX format, with a list of cities.

    http://www.veromi.com/Search.aspx?sType=phone&db=&phone=5037036076

    If you google the phone #, on the actual google search page it says KH lived in Banks OR 2010 – 2010.

    There are multiple numbers attached to those cities, meaning that they tie in to KH or someone who shares the address that lists his phone in Banks.

    Rose says:
    November 5, 2012 at 4:50 pm

  44. erose says:

    PRAYER VIGIL

    A letter from Rachel Hansen:

    Today is the day that we are moving forward on a prayer/candlelight vigil for the community for Kyron Horman. We are going to set the date for Tuesday, June 15th and start moving forward with the planning.

    Each of you are on this email list, because you are a vital part in planning and already have an interest in Kyron’s life and disappearance. We are seeking a vigil for the purpose of praying Kyron safely home, praying for his family and friends, and to give the community a venue in which to show their care, and support. It may also serve a secondary purpose of media attention, and the ONLY purpose of this is to further Kyron’s name and face and recognition of this case. It only takes ONE good tip to bring Kyron home. In this we place HOPE.

    I have been in contact with Skyline Moms in Touch, moms. They have prayer sheets and scripture as reference that we would like to use in guided prayer for small groups who arrive.

    I know that we would like to have the event after work/school. We need to set a time.

    We have talked about having Sunset open (as in the National Prayer day) maybe just in the sanctuary, for people who might like to pray during the day.

    We have Becky Owens who has offered to write a press release with PROPER contact names, so that media attention stays focused only on the task at hand, furthering Kyron’s story and picture for the purpose of recognition locally and across the country.

    We have chosen Sunset Presbyterian for it’s size, proximity to the Location of Kyron’s family, school and disappearance, and because we have an indoor venue option because of Weather.

    These events are NEVER planned, we all need to work together for this to happen. Michelle Shipley has done some research on Vigils and later this afternoon I can forward relevant material on.

    If you have input, thoughts, or people who can help, please email me.
    My home phone number is 503 439 9331
    It is my great HOPE and PRAYER than Kyron is found before Tuesday. But if he comes home at a later date, let us prepare to pray him back collectively on Tuesday, June 15th.

    This effort is also in conjuction with Mike Cook and Becky Owens, two other Portland transplanted Shorecrest High School Graduates and Friends of Kaine’s.
    Praying with you,
    Rachel Hansen
    (Member of Sunset Pres, Fellow Seattle High School Grad and Friend of Kyron’s dad, and mother of three elementary school kids)

    http://srnpdx.org/kyron-horman

  45. erose says:

    According to Rachel Hansen:

    This effort is also in conjuction with Mike Cook and Becky Owens, two other Portland transplanted Shorecrest High School Graduates and Friends of Kaine’s.

  46. MockingbirdSings says:

    vw says:
    November 6, 2012 at 12:14 am

    @vw – Thanks. You are absolutely right about the timeline for PPD – it would have been over or so much worse you couldn’t miss it. It can progress into postpartum delusions, but that would have been no secret. I’ve never thought PPD really fit anything I’ve heard about Terri – however, if Kaine was still unhappy about having another child, she certainly could have had reason to be depressed. Wonder when he got over that? Hopefully, those feelings were brief and he didn’t spend the whole pregnancy period bringing it up over and over.

    @Malty – I had to renew my driver’s license. Now they make you take off your glasses for “facial recognition purposes”. They handed me the license with the photo, and lo and behold – when I looked at it, there was my mother, God rest her soul!

    So – I’m wondering now if the facial recognition security cameras can be more easily matched with DMV photos if there are no glasses in the way. But then if I went somewhere and was caught on camera, I’d be wearing my glasses. Not quite sure how these things work.

  47. erose says:

    That last post was mostly for me, or anyone else I confused.

  48. Malty says:

    Interesting link Erose all of it
    Thanks

  49. erose says:

    Blink, You probably already know this, but that phone number led me to this family. They own this wholesale nursery. What are the odds?

    http://www.gwnursery.com/_company/shipping.html

  50. Rose says:

    @vw. What do you meant when you say in the Court jacket from which you photographed two numbers that Houze objective was to “research the number… ?”

    Do you meant he asked for the content (transcript) of no1 wrt sting date & custody
    and the other wrt getting the transcrpt of a a 911 call wrt custody, or do you mean he
    wanted a copy of what mcso obtained from cell/phone co when mcso subpoenaed from the companies
    records of all calls to and from those numbers for whatever time frame MCSO requested that call record.

    Sounds like the landline is a bill Kaine had Terri pay.

    @wpg. excellent thought. Dec17-19 911 related to Kaine. Who knows if
    Mothers Day story is true or if Terri called 911 that day. Does a 911 call usually
    bring a car to the home of the subject of a 911 call for harassment that took place elsewhere? I thought
    reaponse cars would just go in person to the site where alleged harassment was taking place.

    If Terri was one of the 32 volunteers at Skyline in Apr 09 on the grant project for Green team, and RS was the contractor removing the acre of bushes, he probably met other housewives. We’ve talked about Kaine maybe having a jealous lover who hoped he’d separate from Terri. Maybe RS had a jealous person in his life—with contacts.

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