Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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@wpm I appreciate your sentiments. As a govt employee, I have gone for and gotten “Emergency” TROs, based
on an oral Court report. In the cpsd system, there are protections for both parents.
with MCSO’s representations, that intervention to protect Kiara should have occurred though the cpsd system, ESPECIALLY because the lead Detective’s first and I believe only Detective job before
Kyron was a detail to PPB’s Child Abuse unit. So he knew what to do! (that ! is mine.)
Here’s the thing. MCSO imo should NOT have gone Step 1 to Kaine to effect that Emergency TRO if MCSO’s concern was Kiara. Quite often in these cases, parent 2 has failed to protect the couples’ children in the past, despite indicators in the home (regular drunkenness, porn, etc) and parent 2 usually needs Court supervision to ensure their protection efficacy to their young in the near term.
The astonishing thing, not only did a Detective familiar with cpsd Court procedures in an emergency tro fail to involved cpsd, apparently an mcso employee also recommended coupling the RO to a divorce filing and probably said (as this all occurred with Kaine in a window of a few hours on Sat, here’s the phone no of a divorce attorney who’ll be by her phone and answer and help you with all this tonight Sat while we’re doing the sting.
And if anyone thinks legal filings were typed by an attorney Sat nite, hired late afternoon after MCSO made recs to Kaine that afternoon & his afternoon effort of clearing out, there’s always the brooklyn bridge to sell.
What MCSO should have done professionally if they had a reasonable belief Kiara was in jeopardy due to a homicidal Mom was call cpsd posthaste, go to the home with cpsd and put Kiara in protective custody, and then have an Emergency Hearing that day or within 24 hours wherein Kiara could be placed with Kaine after he represented the safety provisions he would make. It would be up to him to find his own Counsel for both divorce and Kiara’s emergency petition. In such hearing, Terri could be ordered No Contact, with an RO.
The benefit to Kiara?
(1) There would be govt investigation and followup, giving Judge impartial information.
Kaine is not an impartial info providor to Court.
With all due respect, Kyron’s case Detective is not an impartial info source to Court.
(2) Kiara would have a GAL. and be benefitted no matter what betided in civil cases.
Why did the Detective deviate from imo “normal” govt procedure of involving cpsd and having an emergency hearing?
Speculation:
1) there was inadequate evidence against Terri on the mfh and on Kyron’s abduction for even cpsd to credit him (the Detective) after a full cpsd investigation subsequent to a TRO.
2) with memories of his no account wife & divorce, he wanted to share a fine attorney referral.
@rose
The pics I have seen are on S monkeys
Kyron-pics
Below is a link to an album containing an image of the Bottoms Up inside (G-Rated), a couple of the Horman pictures recently discussed, Google images of the Bottoms up outside including a Red Mustang, and images of the Horman Mustang and license plate.
I don’t think the Hormans were at the Bottoms Up at the time that picture was shot, however there are indications it is possible. I don’t see the ceiling lights in the inside photo, but the alignment of the bar and the door is similar to that in the Horman Photo. Also, all inside table and seats are “tall”, except for those seats right in front of the stage. Kaine’s leg is angled down so he might be sitting on a higher chair. The dark area in the middle of the inside picture is where the stage and pole are located. The four high tables are square while the Hormans appear to be sitting at a round table. You be the judge.
I included the Mustang pictures at the Bottoms Up as relative to a long past discussion of a red Mustang driven wildly around Sauvie Island and whether it was the Horman Mustang at the Bottoms up. In May of 2009 Google captued a red Mustang parked outside of the Bottoms Up. This mustang is not the Horman Mustang, as there are big differences in the front grill work and the license plate colors are different. However, it means there is at least one non-Horman red Mustang in the area that could have been seen racing around Sauvie Island with a white truck.
I also included links to TMH’s facebook pictures of the Mustang and the plate.
And. Yes. I did visit the Bottoms Up Bar and Grill at about 2:30 on a Tuesday afternoon in June 2011. I had aborted a visit a couple weeks earlier at 4:30 on a Sunday afternoon due to the presence of 8-10 Harleys parked out front. Outside I noticed two day/night cameras pointing from each side towards the door. They, along with a camera covering the back deck were on monitor inside. I don’t recall if any highway 30 view was visible on the monitor nor do I know if the cameras were being recorded.
Upon entry I noticed the music was very loud and I couldn’t see a thing, it was very dark inside. It would be virtually impossible to carry on any kind of detailed conversation inside with the music that loud. The back deck might afford a conversation but since there was only one chair there I assume it was just for smoking. You don’t want me to get started on the rest room situation.
My judgment was that this was mainly a guys bar, except for parties, such as the birthday party going on in the inside picture. However, the first Yelp review on the Bottoms Up is by a woman.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/bottoms-up-tavern-portland
Side note. She also reviews the Sauvie Island Nude Beach.
The inside picture was acquired, along with some others, at least a year ago from a Bottoms Up website that I cannot currently find.
Review: The Bottoms Up Burger and Fries was very good, and the beer was cold.
—————————————–
Images referred to above:
http://s1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/quizzi1/Bottoms%20Up/
Horman Mustang Front Side View:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1057154510148&set=a.1057153670127.2009619.1264414625&type=3&theater
Horman Mustang License Plate:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1385508158784&set=a.1057153670127.2009619.1264414625&type=3&theater
@wpg. What I’m trying to convey, reduced to basics, was imo
it was unprofessional of mcso to go to parent 2 to execute court work rather than
doing their own Court Emergency hearing if evidence existed
and it’s not required to the 50 yardline.
Judges pay attention to a scintilla, in the case of child safety.
That PPB CA Unit of Det O’Donnald ‘s imo went to Court regularly.
He knew what to do.
What mcso did imo was not the child protection norm
Apparently Kaine got a back massager for Christmas 2009, or thereabouts. Could this be related to an ambulance call in December 2009? Just a thought.
LM trying out Kaine’s back massager:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1335371265393&set=a.1298975715527.2045864.1264414625&type=3&theater
It appears you may not have to be signed into FB to view individually linked pictures. But you do need to be logged in to view albums. I see TMH has 95 images in her profile pictures album than cannot be viewed, at least by a non friend.
TMH Facebook Photos Album View:
http://www.facebook.com/terri.horman/photos_albums
TMH Facebook Photo Stream:
http://www.facebook.com/terri.horman/photos_stream
@MBS, Or what Blink said. I don’t know what the picture means, I just know it looked phony.
RedRose says:
November 2, 2012 at 2:05 am
snip>
What if she posted that pic to ward off anyone interested in Kaine? In her?
Doesn’t it scream, we are sexually interested in each other still?
Wth else would someone post that image, with the amount of friends on their FB it was visible to? I can tell you right now I would have gotten a call from me Mum and I am reminded of what she would say when I was a teen trying to get away with too much eyeliner or jeans too tight, lol-
“What you advertise is what you sell, young lady.”
B
Re: the pic of KH and TH with his hand on her boob.
Sorry if this offends anyone, but that pic is a big yawn. It sends only one message to me. At one time in their relationship, KH and TH were genuinely into each other.
So….
WTH happened to THEM? That is key to finding Kyron.
@NelMel. Don’t you think any accessible B…b would do to an inebriated person?
Terri may rest her hand on him;
I don’t see attraction to him in her eyes in that picture.
Rose,
Your professional knowledge and experience is an asset to my understanding of such procedures . . . much thanks.
A couple of questions.
KH and daughter left the home Saturday, June 26.
KH signed the filled-out TRO reguest Monday, June 28.
The TRO was granted by Judge Meissner Monday, June 28.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/34071571/Kaine-Horman-s-restraining-order-request
My thinking is that this was an unusual or not so common case given the allegations/probable cause for solicitation of a mfh – - by one parent against the other parent, who share a minor child and the marital home
(the parents are not estranged).
I did say the safety of babyK was of paramount concern, but so was the safety of her father (one of her 2 care-givers).
Parallel addition to the unusual circumstances, of course, is the disappearance of little Kyron and the additional probable cause.
Could this not call for a different or not-the-usual protocol perhaps?
and
How can it be known that CPSD did not have any involvement or input prior to the final granting of the TRO?
bravo, quizzical.
Rose,
Forgot to mention, ask . . .
CPSD going to the home prior would have sabotaged LE’s sting operation, yes?
I went googling Terri FB pics.
Idk this blogger but she had some great pics.
http://missingpieceofthepuzzle.blogspot.com/2012/04/picturesque-family-photos-from-terri.html?m=1
One look at the Halloween pic, Oct ’09, and I formed
the opinion the perp acted out of strong resentment
to this family and most likely was fixated to harm indirectly by
harming Kyron whichever adult was perceived closest to Kyron. That could’ve been Terri as well as
Kaine. The actor needn’t have thought on to investigatory harm to Terri; the taking was the harm sought imo.
Someone in their daily lives.
Their daily life pics remind me (sorry, Blink) of the Krim family.
Imo that killer was a Borderline motivated by resentment who preplanned
and imo intended by the place in which she cut herself (rear of neck, nape) to see the object of her resentment,
mother, blamed for the carnage.
The Terri FB pics suggest to me
someone set out to destroy the Horman family, fueled by a sense of entitlement & resentment. Could have been a disappointed “friend” of either adult, an ex, a neighbor who’d suffered a loss, RS or party once removed, etc
@wpg. Quite often these cases involve threats to both the other spouse & children. A Homicidal spouse/parent is not that selective–both spouse & children are a narcissistic extension of him or herself & thus in jeopardy. Easily suicidal too when thwarted (hope a suicide watch is on Ortega.)
But in my Town at least officers experienced in these cases knew 2 separate Court routes were necessary. One for the vulnerable adult (almost always a woman) to get an RO, and both the officer and a cpsd worker might testify of its necessity–This was harder to get and could be hard to enforce. (The mere fact there were zero enforcement difficulties with Terri says a lot.)
Secondly, the child protection protection piece in juvenile Court.
Imo officers would involve cpsd in an investigation if they reasonably believed the mfh story was credible. Kiara could have had an emergency hearing at the same timeframe as Kaine’s . The Court would’ve taken temp custody for Child Welfare & placed with Kaine. That would ensure he was accountable for her safety. Many “abused spouses” go back.
I didn’t work in the field all that long, but I had most of the Court involved cases in the unit. Several
of mine had a parent with an RO on either Mom or Dad at the same time their kid(s) were in temporary Court-ordered agency care while placed with the spouse having the RO. if homicidal spouse didn’t comply with RO, or parent 2 “went back,” the kids were protected.
I went out more than once with a Youth Detective during investigations.
Det. O’Donnell knew the ropes in Court for managing both adult RO and child protection emergency hearings, and testifying in both, based on his PPB detail.
That’s another thing, I find it unimaginable an RO was issued for parent or child with this particular mfh accusation of RS without the officer testifying firsthand. It’s not like Kaine went in with bruises or ER records.
here a Mom or Dad had to have some evidence or a witness to get the RO for the adult in the first place, like a sworn affidavit by RS. I guess OR differs on ease of ROs.
CPSD needn’t have gone to home prior at all
to have an emergency shelter care hearing.
If homicidal intent is alleged, imo
it’s contraindicated.
Kaine could’ve been notified by LE and
present at the emergency hearing.
It would’ve been exparte, no notice to Terri.
They could’ve done it Saturday before the sting, without a sting.
Officer would’ve testified as to his reasonable
belief based on mfh allegation & Kyron’s abduction
that Kiara was at risk of harm as well. Voila, placement
with Kaine, new hearing in 30 days to hear fruit of both
Detective & cpsd investigation.
And the Judge would have
firsthand info from LE & CPSD both, not merely the aggrieved
spouse. I think anyone on PPB detail would’ve been
better trained and more trysting of using cosd as an asset.
At one time in the late 70s Portland cpsd led the nation.
PS I would love to hear from Lea.
I do not know OR’s law or Court procedures.
trusting not trysting. dang autocorrect.
@wpg. the way it was done imo had the sole purpose of “breaking” Terri, not protecting Kiara.
And the LE manager formulating this strategy imo had zero experience in local child protection.
The LE manager/strategist most fitting that bill to me, and the sting plan as well
using DEA, is the now retired then new fbi field office director who was often
at MCSO’s side on camera in those days.
@Rose
I really appreciate your input regard child services. And others regarding timeline. The more that I find out the more I am suspicious of the sequence of events, especially the weekend that the shot was fired round the world…the mfh weekend…on many levels.
As you indicated, CS would be present and accounted for in cases in which a baby needs protection. In Arizona they were front and center in the Tucson case.
As others have indicated, and you, the chances of a lawyer, let alone a former DA assist lawyer (Rackner) being “available” on or immediately after the sting (a Saturday night of all things) are rather, politely said, pre-meditated.
Now, i’ve been going thru the sequence of “unveiling” the BIG NEWS MFH by LE. There is much to look at and I am trying to time the week between the Saturday “leaking” of the MFH to Kaine, the filing of the r/o and divorce, yhe DA’s insistence on “sealing” the media pressure and the sudden release of the files to the public and then their subsequent “turn around” and “OOPS, you can have them” notice.
I’m wondering to what degree Maxine’s “exclusive” of the MFH and her interpretation of her mtg with Rudy has to do with the overall “conceding” of Schrunk to release the files. Or if the release is connected with MCSO’s press releases via the bios in any way. I have many docs with time-stamps and notes written by jugde M. And I think I need you guy’s help interpreting. When I get them up, maybe you all can look at them?
There is a protocol to follow in this kind of “sealing/unveiling” of public records.
Anyway…i’ll try to get all that up and you all can help me if I don’t see something straightways. But it was, at the time awfully fishy.
ps. sis is still in NH and the dr’s don’t have a clue. Thanx for your good thoughts.
Rose, Good Morning.
Thank you for your graceful clarity and most encompassing insight.
I’ve learned a lot from you, Rose, and am most appreciative.
vw says:
“I’m wondering to what degree Maxine’s “exclusive” of the MFH and her interpretation of her mtg with Rudy has to do with the overall “conceding” of Schrunk to release the files. Or if the release is connected with MCSO’s press releases via the bios in any way. I have many docs with time-stamps and notes written by jugde M. And I think I need you guy’s help interpreting. When I get them up, maybe you all can look at them? ”
vw,
I was not aware that “Maxine” had met with RS. Do you have a link for this?
vw, I have not been to your blog. What type of documents are you referencing and how did you obtain images of them, please?
Yes, and then she is accused of an atempted abduction. How did they go from Breide’s statement of “suspicious behavior” to attemped abduction?
Visit preceded restraining order
Shortly after the incident Kaine Horman obtained a restraining order to block Terri from any contact with Kiara or himself.
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Clerk-Terri-Horman-tried-to-abduct-daughter-from-gym-98346624.html
Rose says:
November 9, 2012 at 1:46 am
snip>
@wpg. the way it was done imo had the sole purpose of “breaking” Terri, not protecting Kiara.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Documents-detail-how-violent-sex-offender-dropped-off-radar-178050521.html
Article explains how they lost track of this man. Another reason to think LE could not possibly have questioned every sex offender in the area re Kyron’s case.
There was a story just the other day about another “round up” in the Portland area of sex offenders who hadn’t reported in, then a follow-up article featuring 4 they couldn’t find and wanted the public to help locate.
Not only do the various statutes of limitations, the sentencing, and the treatment and prevention issues need to be reconsidered and revised, but the whole problem of how to track sex offenders and the success rate (lack of) needs a major overhaul – not to mention the budget for doing all these things.
Absolutely and unequivocally avoidable travesty and makes me want to scream my head off.
B
This is very disturbing…
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Documents-detail-how-violent-sex-offender-dropped-off-radar-178050521.html
Rose says:
November 9, 2012 at 1:46 am
(snipped)
@wpg. the way it was done imo had the sole purpose of “breaking” Terri, not protecting Kiara.
*********************
Yep, I totally agree. And I will add that when those sexts were released to the public, no one was thinking about the children either. Strike 2 for Judge M, IMO.
@Quizzical
Thanks for the post it is interesting
@Rose
It is hard to look at the Hormon Family pics
And not feel bad about how things are today
I agree with your idea that some one set out to bring them unhappiness
The whole Kyron story is so sad
When you do those pics
Re those 911 phone calls — could they have had anything to do with James and KH? I think I read that the two of them had some sort of issues (butting heads) before James went south to live with other relatives?
@RedRose
Re: 991calls. Has anyone seen pics of Kyron and/or James being at the Sheltered nook over X-mas vacation in 2009? I’m thinking, regarding your thoughts that the 911 call was something else personal between James and Kaine that it was TMH and Kaine as the form had their names on it for “related info”. But maybe not. The name change was going on at that time, too. Could have come to a crisis.
@wpg and anyone interested in the genesis chapter of the MFH:
There were a lot of articles when this MFH stuff first came out. Some were backed up with facts, some avoided the facts. Here are 3 from the Oregonian at that time.
1, Editor’s reasoning behind Letting the story go through without a “source” for Maxine’s premise.
http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/07/plot-to-kill_story_puts_sourci.html
2. Maxine’s breaking story:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/landscaper_tells_police_terri.html
3. MCSO denies that the information for Maxine’s article came from the “sheriff’s office”.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kyron_horman_case_sheriff_says.html
Note: Although the definitve, keep in mind what Maxine does NOT say, or glosses over. For example, that the detective confronted TMH who denied the charge.
Also…just a note. If you are reading any of the Olive Kyron stories there is a box on the right that has options to view more. Choose “all stories” to go to a listing of them. If you want, specifically, to read all the articles around this time in the case, chose “show earliest first” from the directions on top. Then go to page 5, 6, 7.
VW-
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/07/14/kyron-horman-missing-and-endangered-landscaper-rudy-sanchez-knew-kyron/
I broke Rudy’s actual name. My point in referencing that is that Maxine’s sources were similar, it was an LE oversight.
B
vw,
I had not read before the #1 and #3 linked articles you provided.
Thank you so much.
It was good to reread MaxB’s original story (link #2) as I had completely missed the 2nd paragraph of this snip:
“Investigators also recorded a conversation June 26 among the cooperating landscaper, Terri Horman and an undercover law enforcement officer, but Horman shut down the conversation fairly quickly, sources said.
Detectives later confronted Terri Horman directly with the murder-for-hire allegation, which she denied, sources say.” (end snip)
So, like, where did this confrontation, questioning take place . . . at the Horman home when unaware officers showed up in response to TH’s 911 call of threats and the “sting” was up?
Or was this later at “the station”?
Did she have an attorney present at that point?
Remembering AGAIN her email to KH hours later that night . . .
“OK, I love you but this is ridiculous. What you are doing is parental child abduction and is illegal. I need to know where my daughter is and if she is safe. You were really upset with me when you left. What is it that I/we need to do to reconcile this? I don’t want to call 911 but I need a resolution please. If I don’t hear from you in an hour I will call 911,”
No mention of the LE sting, the Detectives or denial of the allegation.
More weirdness. Cripes.
I’m not sure why, but I am thinking about DAD today. I know that Blink cannot reveal her sources nor can she talk publically to anything she knows “off the record.”
Is Blink merely suspicious of DAD because of his proximity to the search grid, his erratic behavior, and cop-killing episode? Is she suspicious because she doesn’t believe in coincidences, or does she actually know more than she can tell us? Can Blink, without breaking trust, say something like, “I know more, but can’t reveal what it is?” Do we NEED to keep our eye on DAD; is he definitely a piece of the puzzle, or is he just another possible suspect.
*mbs
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/07/accused_wendys_attacker_adam_l.html
This is even more disturbing regarding Adam Brown, the Wendy’s perp.
If you click on the blue links within the article you will find the full case report by his parole officer.
It’s hard to navigate, but gives the complete history of his “parole”.
Of special note is that he was transferred to portland to protect him from harassment. There is no notation that tells one otherwise, so it can be presumed that he was, for a period of time at the downtown address and “monitored” from afar…i.e. Roseburg
He violated his parole in Ashland, I think and served a couple months in jail there…but was out by March, 2010. He had a car and before his Coos Bay incident he was still, from March, 2010 until some time in the summer….drum roll here…..registered to an address in NW Portland. So he was here, unmonitored, when Kyron went missing!
Yet nada from Maxine or LE on whether he was checked out at all!
It is just insane the way LE has handled this investigation. To waste days in Searches and not check out the RSOs in the area?? To say they were “getting around” to interviewing RSOs in December after having called it an “isolated” case within the first week. Shameful!
From TH’s email:
“You were really upset with me when you left.”
arghhhh . . . this has never stood out to me until tonight.
I’ve got more questions just on that one sentence, for Pete’s Sake.
(some other time, though)
@Blink
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/07/14/kyron-horman-missing-and-endangered-landscaper-rudy-sanchez-knew-kyron/
I broke Rudy’s actual name. My point in referencing that is that Maxine’s sources were similar, it was an LE oversight.
B
Yes. I remember that i’d read about Rudy on here first. Are you referring to “sources” in relation to “oversight”?
What came to me when reading this is that MCSO claims that the “information” did not come from the MCSO office. Implying that Maxine had gotten the “interview” on her own. Yet the editor brags that Maxine knows everyone and everything about law enforcement. And if the “tracking down” of the landscaper was a result of Kaine giving her information than he, himself, was in violation of the “sealing” of the records and in contempt.
Interesting that Rackner writes a rational for sealing the records, the judge agrees. the DA agrees, and all the stamps are levied, only to be released days later to even greater “fanfare”. I do know that the “public interest” can legally force revelation of “sealed” documents. But I think the “sealing” and “unsealing” could have been calculated to effect the most public damage on the defendant.
You could be right, but I believe it was simply to protect the “sting”- remember TH called 911 so she was not “in the know” per se. Irt MCSO did not know the extent of the debacle, and how very public it was, until Houze was signed on. When did the original lead investigator ask to be reassigned?
Le involvement in the civil matter is going to make it difficult to quash subpoenas in DY filing, imo.
B
Rose says:
November 9, 2012 at 1:32 am
(snipped)
CPSD needn’t have gone to home prior at all
to have an emergency shelter care hearing.
————————————————————————-
@Rose – Your plan is simple, reasonable, and doable. I just don’t see it happening this way here, although CPS could have been consulted, I suppose. I think I’ve said this before, but as long as there is one parent deemed competent and available to parent and protect the child, this state is unlikely to do anything, certainly nothing they consider so drastic as taking over custody of a child from an able parent.
I assume LE felt they had confidence in Kaine’s ability to parent and that he made a commitment not to have contact with Terri. They were monitoring Terri, and they had interviewed the landscaper. I can’t think of anything this state generally offers that would have benefitted Kaine or Kiara, aside from maybe insisting on continuing a relationship with her mother – which they are unlikely to have done anyway if Terri didn’t come forward and ask for that.
Not saying your way isn’t better, I just don’t see it happening in Oregon with the state’s philosophy and policies/services as they are now if there was nothing questionable in the background or current life of the remaining parent. I guess what I’m also saying is that I don’t see it as an oversight or error on the part of LE because they must also know what the response from CPS would be.
——————————–
Did we ever discuss whether on-site childcare was available to Kaine at Intel and whether he might be using that? It seems that would be a secure setting. According to the article below, Intel has day-care at least at some locations. (Not saying we should publicly announce childcare arrangements.)
http://stemcp.com/partners/intel/
Balancing
At Intel, we strive to help our employees optimize their productivity and improve their quality of life through work/life balance, We offer a variety of programs to help employees-from on- site day care to on-site dry cleaning, from the new parent reintegration program to elder care programs, from flexible work options to the employee assistance program, Intel provides access to a variety of work/life resources to ensure that all employees and their families are physically, emotionally, and mentally fit.
Supporting
Intel has worked to create an environment that supports the needs of different employees-from working parents to those with eldercare responsibilities. and from frequent travelers to those pursuing educational goals. We offer a wide range of flexible work options. Including alternative start/stop times, compressed workweeks. pan-time options, Job sharing, flex time, compensatory time off, and telecommuting.
In addition to traditional benefit plans. Intel has several unique health and wellness programs that set the company apart. including Health for Life and an eight week: paid sabbatical. Health for Life helps employees and their families live healthier lifestyles and includes a health evaluation, an online health risk assessment. and on-site personal health coaching. Employees with seven years of service are given a two month sabbatical to relax and rejuvenate so they return to work: with fresh ideas and new perspectives. And with prior written approval. an employee can extend his or her sabbatical up to six months to engage in teaching. public service, or exceptional educational opportunities.
Thinking about revenge-type things, if he was in the area of TY and DY, maybe his paths crossed with TY and he decided somehow to ‘get even’ or maybe he saw Kyron at some point down there. Maybe taking Kyron had more to do with TY and DY than with TMH and KH??
I wonder – if LE sat on him and squished him really good – that any information might come out?
Snarky Comment Coming Through: ooooh, poor baby, needed protection from being harrassed by others, this predator. boo hoo. not.
@vw says:November 9, 2012 at 9:38 pm
*mbs
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/07/accused_wendys_attacker_adam_l.html
This is even more disturbing regarding Adam Brown, the Wendy’s perp.
. . . .Of special note is that he was transferred to portland to protect him from harassment. There is no notation that tells one otherwise, so it can be presumed that he was, for a period of time at the downtown address and “monitored” from afar…i.e. Roseburg
He violated his parole in Ashland, I think and served a couple months in jail there…but was out by March, 2010. He had a car and before his Coos Bay incident he was still, from March, 2010 until some time in the summer….drum roll here…..registered to an address in NW Portland. So he was here, unmonitored, when Kyron went missing!
Adam Brown. Does anybody know where in NW Portland he lived?
@@vw says:November 9, 2012 at 9:38 pm
. . .from March, 2010 until some time in the summer….drum roll here…..registered to an address in NW Portland. So he was here, unmonitored, when Kyron went missing!
Found this on the OLive timeline, while looking for something else. Just curious when and how this happened during the course of a school day. Did the older kids meet in the library with the younger kids, or did they meet up in either of the student’s classrooms? Which teachers supervised, etc. It’s a great idea to have reading mentors, it also expanded Kyron’s exposure to older students and other teachers, fwiw.
3 p.m. At the school, parents begin to pick up their children. Among them is Beth Smith.
“I’m disappointed the year is over already because I think the kids need each other right now,” said Smith, walking onto school grounds to pick up her 12-year-old daughter, who was Kyron’s reading buddy.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
vw says:
November 9, 2012 at 9:59 pm
(snip)
“And if the “tracking down” of the landscaper was a result of Kaine giving her information than he, himself, was in violation of the “sealing” of the records and in contempt.”
____
vw,
Highly unlikely, imo, KH leaked anything to media regarding the sting or his TRO.
The police scanner was “open” during the time on June 26, so LE transmissions/communications were heard by anyone from the public listening in.
If TH had identified landscaper RS to the 911 operator, chances are the dispatcher relayed RS’s name to the LE patrol car(s) over open channels.
I always thought Terri’s reaction to Kaine coming and taking
Kiara and moving out Was off
He must not have said any thing
She gives the reporters a thumbs up
She says nothing about the MFH
In the email
Why did she think he took Kiara
Another thing is why didn’t LE call Terri in and talk about the MFH
Or did they
She seemed not to have a clue
It was a gotcha moment
Brown’s address as of December 2010:
BROWN, ADAM LEE 8/29/1962 View Bulletin (More Info…)
415 SW ALDER ST #317 * PREDATOR *
PORTLAND, OR 97204
Don’t know where he was when he first arrived in Multnomah County.
@MBS. Since Det. O’Donnell’s first and perhaps only Det job was detail to PPB Child Abuse unit, and his assignment just before this case, , he should have had plenty of experience & training with working with local cpsd including testifying at ex parte hearings to effect emergency plans for the safety of specific children. It does NOT mean taking custody from a parent. In fact remaining in the home with the responsible parent is always first preference. Look at Celis. Portland cpsd pioneered a MBO program aimed at keeping kids in their homes with their parent as first pref in 70s. I can’t believe the community milieu has regressed.
keep in mind, the accusations from mcso attested to by Kaine in HIS RO boil down to. and Judge acted on: 1) abduction & probable murder of son; 2) attempt murder of spouse.
Can it get any worse?
Shades of Powell.
And keep in mind at this stage mcso did not “know” Parent 2.
Would he re- unite with abuser?
Would he supervise & safeguard Kiara adequately?
Only way to ensure that was cpsd/Court accountability for st least 30 days.
If this is not a case, with these accusations, where Det O’Donnell, with his recent detail, knew to have a separate Court hearing in the Juvenile protective system, what is?
And back to Powell. Visitation at his home, or anywhere, and level of supervision was a red herring. As long as he knew grandparents name & whereabouts, he would’ve simply gone there & killed kids & relatives imo even with an RO.
With parents of this nature, homicidal, one had to change the threatened parent/children(s) name & hide them until himicidal parent was locked up for repeat violations of RO or other crimes.
And mcso/Kaine have alleged this is the type of parent/spouse Terri was. The rush by Rackner back to the residence for Kaine/Kiara belies the affidavit of fear imo.
@wpg. She sounds like she’s trying to calm an unruly 2nd grader.
What she omits is He Left With Kiara! (! mine) Why didn’t she worry about that?
Did he say they were going to gym? or where?
Sounds like she was told where they were going. No 911 then.
so wasn’t worried about where they went. But she
was worried he was very mad at her.
About what? Not Kyron’s disappearance, or she’d have freaked out.
Mad about something else. What the Landscaper said.
I bet he actually told her what RS said.
And she minimized and thought he’d listen.
……my speculation.
@erose. I’ve read this many times, but now I think you have highlighted an inference, for me.
” erose says:
November 9, 2012 at 10:33 am Yes, and then she is accused of an atempted abduction. How did they go from Breide’s statement of “suspicious behavior” to attemped abduction?
Visit preceded restraining order
Shortly after the incident Kaine Horman obtained a restraining order to block Terri from any contact with Kiara or himself.”
You know, I think when Kaine left Sat, and Terri wrote you were very mad at me when you left
(but she didn’t worry Kiara was with him), he probably did say they were at the gym,
and he probably went there, and he probably
unloaded all about mfh & sting on old buddy Briede.
Because,
Otherwise how would Briede know from Adam to call 911 when Terri walked in and said “Are Kaine & Kiara here?” “Let me know if they come in.” = a harmless request as there was not only no RO then but also no adverse media talk re Terri.
(Ya’ll correct me if my timeline memory is bad.)
@Red Rose
Re: Adam Brown’s addresses. It’s there in that parole case review. It’s hard for me to scroll thru it, technically, but maybe someone has another link to the report itself or better tech skills. I read the whole thing when it came out. IIRC there were two downtown addresses and he was moved to Old Town, downtown after he was assigned a PO in Portland (Summer, 2010?). There was an account by the PO, too, of coming to his room/apt. and hearing voices inside that made him/her suspicious of a sexual encounter but when Adams finally opened the door the PO couldn’t see anyone.
On another note. Not just the SRIs were skimmed over by LE, IMO. Was just reading up on the groundskeeper who appeared directly after the presser on who-saw-the-white-truck-and-is-an-untainted-witness. On August 11th. So…guess who provides a “tip”? A landscaper there during the critical “abduction” time, the morning of June4th. Makes one shake their head and wonder who they DID interview (between July and December) after they set their sites on TMH. How hard would it be to ask Keefer: Who was here that morning? We want all names of itinerate and permanent staff. Two MONTHS go by and he has to come to them?
Horman truck links:
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100663409.html Reneges on first story
(Could have left up until 9am)
“Stensen told investigators that he left Skyline School as late as 8:45 a.m. or 9 a.m., which means he could have missed seeing the Horman truck being in the two spots investigators are interested in, especially since he spent his time and attention at the school mowing the soccer field.
Investigators say that puts him on the gravel road outside of the critical half-hour window they want to know about since they have witnesses who saw someone in or around the Hormans’ truck during that time.”
Breaking story:
Stensen said he used the access road to get his truck and mowing equipment up to the soccer field like he always does.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100582364.html
He said he cut the grass on the soccer field between 7:45 a.m. and 8:30 a.m. the morning of June 4 and never saw the Hormans’ truck on the road. Based on the investigators’ timeline, and if Stensen’s times are accurate, the window for the white truck to be on the access road narrows to the 15 minutes between 8:30 a.m. and 8:45 a.m.
And, yes…POOR, POOR Adam. Not getting a fair shake in Roseburg.
@wpg
Your welcome.
re: Did she have an attorney present at that point?
Remembering AGAIN her email to KH hours later that night . . .
“OK, I love you but this is ridiculous. What you are doing is parental child abduction and is illegal. I need to know where my daughter is and if she is safe. You were really upset with me when you left. What is it that I/we need to do to reconcile this? I don’t want to call 911 but I need a resolution please. If I don’t hear from you in an hour I will call 911,”
No mention of the LE sting, the Detectives or denial of the allegation.
More weirdness. Cripes.
******
No, she didn’t hire Houze till at least Wednesday. The MFH was Saturday, the 26th.
Yes. Those Katu emails have me wondering, too. It’s like they never talked about the real issue. Was he advised not to confront her with the actual allegations? Or did he on Saturday as he took Kiara and she said she thought the story LE gave him and her was ridiculous. It rests, I think, on the time of deposing Rudy and the subsequent times of informing Kaine and Terri. Did Bobby meet with both of them? If not, how much did he tell each? If he found the LS “credible” would he leave it up to a man with guns in the house to confront TMH? (WW reported that neighbors would hear guns going off at night).
The Horman Divorce hearing is not listed under either Bunch or Rackner through January 2013. Leaving out all information except attorney name will give you a list of their upcoming court schedules.. What is going on with the November divorce hearing? This was brought up earlier, but don’t think anyone had an answer. Very curious!
http://courts.oregon.gov/OJD/pages/courtcalsearch.aspx
noting Terri did not call 911 when he left, “mad.” She waited a long time really.
At that time he left on Sat, I think he gave her a plausible idea of where he was taking Kiara.
He was not the family shopper, so only 2 plausible explanations to tell Terri
where they were going: the gym, or grandmas in Vancouver.
It is reasonable he went to the gym awhile and “unloaded” on Briede.
@Malty. I think they didn’t call her in & talk to her about RS’ statement
because she’d been pointing the finger at RS awhile.
It was he said/she said. only she failed the poly.
So, Det made his choice, apparently without a poly of RS.
Call this info gossip, but IIRC, the Saturday of the sting, TH was out taking a poly. Was that what the argument was about? Is that how KH managed to take Kiara with him? Again, IIRC (and chances are I may not) didn’t Blink tell us TH was aware of being followed that day. Did the sting catch her off guard, or did she think, she was being set up.
If you go back a week before the sting, there was more psychological warfare going on. An Internet rumor started that Kyron’s remains had been found. They were quickly disregarded the next day, the day the flier came out with TH’s picture. A flier that “the family approved.” Makes me wonder if LE was at the house, getting the flier approved, and notified the family of the Internet rumor (source unk) in order to judge reactions.
Every week, there was something new, and the press and the public fed off of it. The sting didn’t work, so the revelation of the sexual texting came next. Then, I think, it was DDS and TH on a flier. She had pressure most people could not tolerate. She is either cold as a stone, or has nothing more she knows.
She was aware she was being followed, absolutely- it was discussed during the sting in an open communication format. I have to believe that she was smart enough to realize if she was being followed minutes earlier, she comes home to the empty house and immediately realizes Kaine and Kiara are gone, landscaper pulls up with undercover DEA and asks her for the $10K- that she knew this was all coordinated.
I know this will be met with some negativity, but I would have retained counsel, or at least met with one, the second it became clear that LE did not believe “my” account of “my” whereabouts June 4.
Imo, Houze is the single reason she was not arrested , and I think his camp was as surprised as anyone that she was not.
Everyone knows I am a staunch supporter of LE, and everyone knows I do not believe missing persons cases should be handled by inexperienced investigators even if they had the investigative support of 100 outside agencies. It is still “their” case, and this is another example of why it does not work.
B