Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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@cd. I think most of us have read that stalker’s history at some point.
I was taken aback at seeing on Anti DD FB page yesterday a picture of a group of stalkers with signs in front of Moulton home at curbside on Mothers Day 2012, threatening they’d come to DD’s parents’ too. I do not see how local LE can let this go on. Surely there is a local “disturbance of the peace” city ordinance to be used & repeatedly fine these people. These posters are private harassing messages, not public speech.
JMO, but after reading some of Tom Jone’s posts, those on his FB & OLive, I think he is absolutely asking, very loudly, for some help he appears to be desperately in need of. I hope he gets it. AMOO Whether there is any truth in what he is saying I do not know, but I feel his need to project as loudly as he is, says something about him. If any of you have read his FB comments, I think you’ll see what I’m getting at. I’d rather not repeat it.
Okay now, don’t shoot the messenger here:
Here’s the comment that was supposedly from Terri Horman about ex-wives & ex-husbands:
It was posted on June 20, 2010, in the comments of this Olive report:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html :
URWho2Me
According to comments Terri made on various ‘surveys’ that are now floating about in webworld, she and Kaine have been together since June2002 and married since Ap 15, 2007. I didn’t copy the questions, but you kind of get the idea just from answers.
17. Where were you born?
Grassvalley, CA
How long have you been together? June 2002 & married April 15, 2007
13. Who has the craziest ex[es]? His was a self absorbed looney and mine harbored feelings for me for a long time.
What’s your favorite thing to do together? Watch movies and play games. Have fun with our daughter.
I was adopted when I was 6 weeks old.
I couldn’t lie to save my life.
20. I wish…there was never such a thing as child abuse or animal cruelty.
→How did you meet 4? Carol Moulton
At Children’s Home Society when I was 6 weeks old.
*********
I have no idea if this was truly a quiz taken by Terri, but if true, it does show that there was indeed no love lost between any of these parents. What I found interesting (btw, I’d never seen this before until a couple of weeks ago) was that Terri states one of her ex-husbands wouldn’t let go. Ecker? We don’t know much about their split. Is it possible Terri was seeing Kaine while still married to Ecker? If Ecker was hurt by Terri plus paying James’ child support, her child by another marriage, well IMO that’s huge. I keep thinking back to JW’s comment about depriving Kaine of his precious boy. Also, isn’t it true that Terri actually agreed to Ecker paying less child support, but then it changed back to even more? Could it possibly be that it was Kaine Horman who was behind Terri pushing for more money from Ecker? Which, if known by Ecker (even if he was only lead to believe it was Kaine) would make him even more angry.
BTW, was Tony Young previously married? If so, we know nothing about that either, but I’ll betcha LE knows all of this and they still have only one defacto suspect. Two plus years later, I just can’t believe LE hasn’t checked out all these types of angles in this case, which takes me back to a stranger, or someone connected to the school.
I am not seeing any comments from June 20 there, and I will certainly never shoot you, but we are going to need s source reference- I say this because I have seen all kinds of fake data from folks claiming interest in this case. ( not from you, whomever posted that)
B
@Blink. Sorry, shouldn’t have posted without a link, which I don’t have. I believed he described it himself, saying it was accidental while boating in his many writings on glp. I not going back to look for anything he wrote & I think glp “disappeared” his thread anyway iirc. I think it’s about as worthwhile as discussing Alternative’s theories, or several others not on this blog or SMonkeys, which are moderated.
http://thetruthwillsaveyoursoul-truthteller.blogspot.com/2011/01/thinking-of-kyron-and-his-family_30.html
Don’t know how I found this page -googling for something else, I think. Anyway, there are some really cute pictures of Kyron when he was little, also with his mommy.
however, some of the stuff posted there is pretty weird.
I swear I read this crap and feel like if we are not surrounded by a wifi moat, we need to be.
That crazytown zip is getting bigger by the day.
B
I saw this on the news last night and was all WTH?!?!
Way to go, Portland, allow a SO counseling office near a school. They can’t be counseled or rehabbed, IMO. I’m glad to read that it is being moved.
http://www.kptv.com/story/20078978/sex-offender-clinic-near-school
I applaud this community for taking a stand, but I would sincerely like to know more about the activities and clients of this alleged therapist. As an example, what research was done on the location as it related to rso probation requirements? Because most that are labeled pedophiles, cannot be within a certain perimeter of either the boys club or a school.
B
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/11/13/police-search-el-sereno-hillside-for-possible-kidnapping-victim/
Hopefully, this will post about a possible kidnapping here in East LosAngeles near the 10 freeway and Cal State LA.
@Truth
I am concerned about the FB person you are talking about
I hope this person is not going off the deep end
And do something to some one
A shrug and all is one thing but every day
The crazy stuff is increasing
@T Ruth
Also I don’t really think that FB page is about Kyron
At all
@Blink says:
I am not seeing any comments from June 20 there, and I will certainly never shoot you, but we are going to need s source reference- I say this because I have seen all kinds of fake data from folks claiming interest in this case. ( not from you, whomever posted that)
**************
It’s there at the link I gave. You have to hit oldest first on the comments, then keep hitting more comments until you get to June 19, then you’ll see a button “view more”, click that and up pops the one I gave. Like I said I have no way to know whether it was true or not. Also noticed this is where another poster said that Terri stopped Porter across the crowded gym and told her about a Dr. appointment. Different poster, (Hollysgmom relays a post from RandomDood from June 6) just above on June 19. I had always wondered where that came from, I guess it was from RandomDood, whomever the heck that is. Anyway, it’s there, not vouching for it’s accuracy of course, but since Erose was discussing it, I thought I’d show where it came from.
Thank you T Ruth- I was comment challenged. I had heard the same about Terri the gym and Mrs. Porter- but that it had occurred the day before. I know it could not have occurred the day of the science fair.
No independent confirmation on that however.
B
If there were ever a word to sum up this case:
“Omnishambles” has been named word of the year by the Oxford English Dictionary.
The word – meaning a situation which is shambolic from every possible angle -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20309441?postId=114324889
We need a new word for mature adult people acting like hormonal teenagers on the Internet. I am f-l-o-o-r-e-d by the recent events, and it lends some perspective on what level of secrecy and anonymity people expect with IT. Just wondering if it applies to Kyron’s abduction.
T. Ruth says:
November 11, 2012 at 11:34 am
I have a question regarding the release of Dede Spicher’s deposition. Because hers was released publicly, does that mean all depositions in this civil case are now fair game under the FOIA?
I would like to know who released it and why no others have been. What was the intent of releasing this one to the public?
Technically, yes. As long as they are filed with the court.
B
———————————–
I had same question. Thought maybe DeDe’s was available because it became part of the challenge filed in regard to her use of the 5th. If the depositions can be requested under FOIA, I’m amazed we haven’t seen the one from James, at least. Of course, maybe they are not required to officially file them until it’s time for the next court hearing to determine how to proceed – Blink says “as long as they are filed with the Court”.
********
Just a quick note. Dede’s depo was NOT filed …. at least not a week ago. Which makes me wonder where Maxine got it. She did not say “….in court papers filed….” in her article. Shouldn’t there be an opposing motion filed since there is a date to hear the motions?
It just seems that the media is continuing to show bias. Why else would that Court appearance by Bunch not be given Olive attention? It proves that
1. Bunch and TMH were fighting to see Kiara and
2. That the degree of a Catch 22 bind TMH is in cannot begin to addressed until evidence is reciprocated. and
3. Bunch was right in arguing for an abatement that the criminal case is ongoing.
Would an opposing motion be filed by Wagner if it did happen? Or Dede’s lawyer? There was a “notice” to the court that TMH would be represented by Wagner.
No other depos have been filed so far. I would be surprised if there wasn’t at least some kind of “gag order” to prevent very personal, i.e. address, phone number, employer, information from being linked and leaked.
Would they allow that kind of information to be disseminated for Desiree?
And, btw, wasn’t Kaine deposed earlier?
It was filed as an exhibit as required, ergo it was filed with the court. I doubt any other depositions have been transcribed and returned to Rosenthal that are not an issue wrt to compel motions. Although they may have been- we don’t know the non-docket conversations going on.
A gag order must be obtained via order- whether all agree or not, which I highly doubt they would in the first place, and to my knowledge their are no new orders on the docket. And that is only if through some sort of agreement that did not require a motion or hearing and is just filed with the court.
Otherwise it is motions and responses, etc, etc.. until a ruling- which would all be public unless ruled otherwise- again which I doubt- their is a very narrow threshold for that in a civil matter.
I don’t wonder where Maxine got it, because iirc, she only had the partial transcript and /or motion, with the waterseal. Another station ultimately posted the full file, so we know it came from the court.
On the ex parte renewal of the RO- I completely agree. I have been saying this from day one, the limitations of TH to defend this are monumental without infringing on her rights. It also speaks to Bunch et al very different and non-public approach as opposed to DY and KH.
I hope they change that up and come out swinging, as I have said before, the way I see it, this is the only chance they have if TH is innocent, or not culpable in either the mfh or Kyron’s disappearance for her to shift the tide.
I recall Kaine receiving a subpoena for his deposition, I don’t know if he has been deposed, but I am most interested in his deuces tecum and whether their are any objections or motions to quash wrt to any requests for records, etc.
B
Bottom line is that is really what this is about- playing to the public, right?
LOL, notice I didn’t include the url again. I wandered through a bit of it this afternoon and now I feel like I should wash my mouth out with soap, throw away my glasses and take a shower with Clorox.
The Internet, with its options of anonymity, certainly removes good judgment from a LOT of people.
As I skimmed some of it about TMH and DDS and their “friends”, it just makes you feel so badly for the little kiddies that are around these people with no protection.
Off my soapbox, now. Think I’ll go darn a pair of socks. Or something.
@RedRose says: November 13, 2012 at 4:01 pm
I swear I read this crap and feel like if we are not surrounded by a wifi moat, we need to be.
That crazytown zip is getting bigger by the day.
B
Idahogal says:
November 13, 2012 at 5:04 pm
I saw this on the news last night and was all WTH?!?!
Way to go, Portland, allow a SO counseling office near a school. They can’t be counseled or rehabbed, IMO. I’m glad to read that it is being moved.
http://www.kptv.com/story/20078978/sex-offender-clinic-near-school
I applaud this community for taking a stand, but I would sincerely like to know more about the activities and clients of this alleged therapist. As an example, what research was done on the location as it related to rso probation requirements? Because most that are labeled pedophiles, cannot be within a certain perimeter of either the boys club or a school.
B
**************
“Whole Systems Counseling opened last December, but many people only learned about the clientele recently. The clinic is in a nondescript building on Southeast Milwaukie Avenue in Sellwood, down the street from a Boys and Girls Club and a Montessori school.”
(snipped)
http://www.kptv.com/story/20078978/sex-offender-clinic-near-school
***************
Why does Montessori school ring a bell with me? Okay, here:
http://www.katu.com/news/local/96186134.html
Merica Fooks installed surveillance cameras at the private school she used to own in Northwest Portland, the Montessori Learning Center. The school’s not far from Skyline Elementary, where Kyron Horman was last seen a week ago. She bought a surveillance camera system for under a thousand dollars from Radio Shack. It includes a moniter in the back office that can switch from camera to camera. That was ten years ago. It’s worked without problem ever since.
“I think parents should make a stand and say we’re not going to send our kids (to school) until we have proper security. I just think it’s crucial for the public schools to have them … this is a time when children just cannot be safe without proper security measures. They’re so innocent you know?” she said.
*************
This is beginning to remind of Blink’s story about Blinkett’s daycare, conveniently located downstairs from the AA meeting place. The article does say it was moved there in Dec, but where was this counseling place before?
You know, I almost just referenced that again, I appreciate your diligent attention- that incident is one I like to remind folks because not only was it inappropriate, but is an example of listening to one’s satellites (Gift of Fear).
B
@Idahogal and Blink and anyone else interested –
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Sex-offender-treatment-provider-looking-for-new-location-179203061.html
Here is another report.
“One hundred twenty convicts from Clackamas and Multnomah counties receive court-ordered counseling at the center for crimes like molestation, possession of child pornography and rape of a minor.”
So – why aren’t these convicts restricted from being near schools? Doesn’t make sense to me. I thought it was pretty standard practice in SO probation requirements. She (therapist in charge) said none of her clients are restricted from being around schools.
I thought her comment about the clients they see not being the type to “jump out of bushes” seemed a bit defensive and unprofessional, and minimized the concerns of the neighborhood.
They also counsel families of the person on probation. Her website is http://www.whole-systems.net/cms/index.php/index.html
snipped from website:
Whole Systems Counseling & Consultation, P.C specializes in the treatment of adjudicated adult males and females who have been convicted of a sexual offense. The program is located in Oregon City, Oregon and currently provides treatment services to approximately 145 clients who are under the supervision of Clackamas County Community Corrections. The program was initially created six years ago as a private practice by the director, Johneen Manno Verbeck, MA, LPC, who now oversees two full-time clinical staff, two part-time clinical staff (the Program Director being one of the part-time staff, since she divides her time between clinical and director work), one database developer, and administrative staff.
The Program Director, Johneen Verbeck, has two Master’s degrees (Psychology and Counseling), is a Licensed Professional Counselor, and has approximately 8 years of experience working with sex offenders in a treatment setting. Ms. Verbeck also just received word from OHLA/Sex Offender Treatment Board that her application to be a Certified Clinical Sex Offender Therapist in Oregon has been approved.
All elements of the Whole Systems Counseling & Consultation, P.C., program follow the “Guidelines for Sex Offender Assessment and Treatment” (Solicitation Attachment 5). Our Program Director, Johneen Manno Verbeck, was part of the DCJ Treatment Workgroup that developed the Guidelines. In addition, our program follows “ATSA Practice and Guidelines.” Our Program Director is a member of OATSA and ATSA. In fact, our Program Director and our two staff psychologists have been invited to present at the ATSA 2009 Conference this year in Dallas, TX, specifically about our family Program component and our data collection to measure client programs on different levels as they go through treatment.
Our team consists of four full-time clinicians with a variety of certifications and licenses pertaining to counseling and psychology. While the team has an impressive combined 20 plus years of working with sexual offenders, the counselors and therapists in our program were also hired because of their desire to work with the sexual offender population.
All our clinicians have seen profound change occur in offenders and, thereby, positive changes in the families and support networks still connected to the offender. In this regard, the program includes advocates and counselors for offenders, non-offending spouses, and victims (if they desire) in order to develop long-term reunification plans designed to keep recidivism as low as it can be.
Our treatment team realizes how hard this treatment is for offenders and their families. We honor this hard work, and walk with the clients through treatment—even when they go through denial, resistance to treatment, guilt and shame. We tell our clients that we will hold them to rules of the program, since that is the only way for treatment to be effective. We want them to succeed; encourage them to have a voice in their treatment; and will have them face the consequences for their choices made in their past, and the choices made while in treatment.
——————–
In spite of having a tech guy as part of the clinic, they don’t seem to have updated their website since 2009.
The BIG QUESTION becomes: Can a city (or county/state) pass code to restrict the movements of someone (a class of persons) convicted of a sex offense (keep them away from children, for example) and can it be enforced IF it isn’t already a probation requirement for that person (or class of persons)?
I am a member of my city’s Public Safety Advisory Committee. We will be discussing this, I’m sure. In the past, there were attempts to put restrictions on a halfway house for the criminally insane, but there were limits due to the ADA. We were able to reduce the size of the facility but not move it. However, that was a residential facility for people considered to have a mental disability as well as having committed a crime. That would not seem to apply in this case.
Are there other states or cities which have handled this issue (sex offender treatment clinic in a residential area with schools) well?
My comments below are limited to any offenders who have been convicted of a sex offense involving a child-
The issue for consideration for me is simple. If there are offenders who as a condition of their parole or probation have restrictions on them as to locations they can be wrt to children, and this clinic violates that, even for an hour or whatever, it is just that.
Not advocating this, however:
The easy remedy is to stand on the opposing sidewalk with a camera and take a pic and review it against the registry. My guess is that is why the location is not identified. Then call a tip line anonymously if one can determine that their is a DEFINITE violation. Here’s the problem- if one is wrong, you stand to be charged with harassment, and possibly other statute offenses. Rarely is probation data available to the public- the residents were correct in attempting to have the clinic moved.
This gets into a debate I will not even bother to participate in- from my perspective- there is no such thing as a therapeutic management or cure of a pedophile, period. I can’t speak to any other RSO profile except serial offenders and they fall into the same category as far as I am concerned.
That said, if the law releases them, and as a course of same requires counseling as a means of management and frankly, monitoring, I would support that in conjunction with the other conditions of their release- but again, I say, at the statute level, I already believe their is no hope of cure for these animals, so at the very least, I hope the “treatment” is designed to flag those.
I would find the treatment of victims of these patients a conflict of interest to the practice, but that is just me.
Bottom line, we need to have conversations with our children about the realities of the environment they are going to be exposed to whether we like it or not.
B
The story behind sex and the city of Portland
http://www.oregonlive.com/O/index.ssf/2010/04/sex_and_the_city_of_portland.html
Blink replies to T.Ruth:
(snipped)
“I had heard the same about Terri the gym and Mrs. Porter- but that it had occurred the day before. I know it could not have occurred the day of the science fair.”
G’morning, Blink and all,
Blink, why could the alleged exchange not have occurred on June 4?
Thank you.
They were never in the gym Friday.
B
Dustin Wallace given life sentence for murder of Sahara Dwight
http://www.nrtoday.com/news/3208128-113/wallace-sahara-garrison-dustin
(snipped, much more @ link)
In the end, the judge said he could not risk placing the public in danger if Wallace were released.
“We really don’t know what’s wrong with Dustin. More importantly, no one will know in 30 years what he will be like,” said Garrison, who found Wallace guilty in June after a bench trial.
**************
(Thank you Judge Garrison.)
Blink replies:
November 14, 2012 at 8:56 am
“They were never in the gym Friday.
B”
Thank you for that, Blink.
To clarify, does “they” include Kyron?
To my knowledge yes.
B
Kyron never reached the gym Friday?
So, the cool electric one was in the classroom of middle schoolers’
electrical displays mentioned here before?
I thought the Kessinger lad saw Kyron in the gym that Friday.
You once said, sorry no link, you thought SZ met Kyron in the
cool electric display area. Is my memory correct on that? Would that be
a classroom with electrical projects?
Yes, was definitely a classroom.
B
wpg says:
November 14, 2012 at 12:26 pm
Blink replies:
November 14, 2012 at 8:56 am
“They were never in the gym Friday.
B”
Thank you for that, Blink.
To clarify, does “they” include Kyron?
To my knowledge yes.
B
——————–
Funny – that is not what I’ve always pictured in my mind, but it would maybe explain why there didn’t seem to be as many witnesses to seeing them there as seemed likely.
@erose. I read no email over 180 days
old is private. Considered abandoned.
I feel like part of Part 2 is rolling out, thank you.
lol, heart u
B
IIRC Kessinger’s project was both cool and had an electric component.
According to this Kyron was in the gym, sans Terri.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/98434609.html
(snipped)
Meanwhile, investigators are re-interviewing people who say they saw Kyron at Skyline School the day he disappeared.
One person who has been asked again about what he saw is Skyline seventh-grader Tyler Kessinger, whose science fair project was on antimatter. He said investigators came back to interview him last week at his home.
“I just saw him (Kyron) in the gym, and I saw the truck out in the parking lot,” he said Wednesday. Kessinger said Kyron was looking at other students’ science fair projects, seemed happy and was with friends.
Kessinger said he hopes it’s all cleared up soon because it’s a frightening situation for him.
“Just knowing someone took him and not coming out and confessing, and that he’s probably in some other random place,” he said.
He said when he saw Kyron in the gym he didn’t see Terri Horman with him. He and his family have turned over pictures they took at the science fair to investigators, but they’ve been asked not to disclose the timeframe in which he saw Kyron.
************
Sounds like there may be photos to confirm Tyler’s story. Tyler says when he saw Kyron, (in the gym), he was looking at other kids’ science projects. Therefore, there must have been projects set up in the gym. The question is, why did LE ask the Kessinger’s not to reveal the time Tyler saw Kyron sans Terri.
I know how that reads, but if you recall the projects were actually dropped off Thursday, and that is the gym reference, specifically, because you can’t see the parking lot from the gym.
B
It seems to me what made this community differ from the rest of Portland when it came to public pressure was
1) the target was a single business owner & new to community & not the property owner nor reaident herself
that, is the target was not an arm of gov’t but a single person
2) the concentration of SOs who do not reside in the neighborhood and are transient visitors.
Otherwise, the Portland track record seems to be ignore, live & let live.
Respectfully, Blink, I do not think it possible for TM to “shift the tide” if innocent.
Portland seems to have a long deep history of public apathy wrt performance & leadership of PPB, MCSO, DA’s office, Mayor’s office, etc. over various decades in terms of malfeasance or corruption or civil rights violations, or poor performance, which seems resistant to all but occasional Federal intervention. MCSO’s performance in this investigation seems at the low end of general public interest.
Well Rose, I really cannot argue with that. I do not understand it personally, but again, you have a missing child’s parents who seem intent to support le- literally and figuratively to some degree.
And they should, it does not serve any to alienate those tasked with the responsibility- but it is absolutely incumbant upon them to hold them accountable for the stage of the investigation and they are not.
I reserve the right to change my opinion on that when I see who is subpoenad from LE- we all know those will come last.
B
@T-ruth. Regarding Tyler. Blink is right. If TMH’s truck was parked where LE said it was, both places are beyond the gym range.
Regarding Tyler. This is not the only “sighting” of Kyron that LE “backtracked on”. Tanner and Dave Stensen are the most obvious that come to mind.
They, MCSO, had a time-frame in mind. It was a matter of making the shoe fit. 9am was the official “losing sight” of Kyron for the first week. PPS and LE were stating so.
From the article where Carol Moulton is interviewed, June 5th:
“After that, the two looked at other projects set up on desks in classrooms. There are about 300 students at Skyline Elementary, and all of them were invited to contribute to the fair.
Although the school usually opens at 8:35 a.m. and the final bell rings 10 minutes later, the school opened as early as 8 Friday for the science fair, said Matt Shelby, spokesman for Portland Public Schools.
Other students and parents showed up early as well to check out the fair, and Terri and Kyron saw people they knew while looking at the exhibits, Carol Moulton said.
Terri often volunteers at the school, working closely with Kyron’s teacher, Kristina Porter. Shelby said that Porter saw Kyron in her classroom with his stepmom before 8:45 a.m. and another instructor reported seeing him in another classroom at some point.
At 8:45 a.m. when the bell rang, Terri walked her stepson down the hall close to his class.
“He told her, ‘I’m going back to the classroom, Mom,’ and she waves to him and left,” Carol Moulton said. “She thought he was safely at school just like he is everyday.”
What happened to the boy who went missing is unclear.
Carol Moulton said the kids were supposed to report to their classes and be divided into small groups of a few students each. Each group was supposed to tour the science fair with a chaperone. Afterward, when they returned to their classes for roll call, Kyron wasn’t there, she said.”
How those statements got morphed into “Tmh yelled across a noisy gym and confused the teacher…etc” seems incredulous.
That confusion, however, started the initial terri-did-it frenzy. And it seems facts were handcuffed, took a back seat and were driven to the place where MCSO does 85% of its business….monitoring the east county jails.
LE made no attempts to set the record straight. Even prompted, by confusing us with TMH/DD posters and pressers, no direct answers to questions….so those of us that thought we knew the facts were faced with confronting speculation from friends, etc. in days, weeks, months to come.
All my (somewhat) humble opinion.
@wpg. I was referring to TMH’s emails when and if I stated that Kyron was last seen with a “chaperone” and two small girls. I believe i stated that some other “observation” supported that statement by TMH. If the emails were even true….as Katu would not release the source. I am not a parent from Skyline, but in the adjoining neighborhood.
@Rose. Would agree with you on incompetent and (in my mind) overpaid politicians and police in this area. However, we did have a mayor who was very competent, Vera Katz, for more than 1 term. I think a huge problem with the PPD is that those that have military background get preference. And I don’t know the exact requirements, but it seems that they, and mcso deputies/detectives don’t have to have degrees anymore, if they ever did. Frankly, I am not very secure about their analytical skills (detectives at MCSO in particular) in general, nor their leaders being able to articulate the actions of their forces and come up with a successful plan for betterment. One word about MCSO…backing of the Union gets you elected, and hence payback when you’re in the helm.
@ Blink. very insightful, thank you.
So we’ll look to if and which
LE subpoenas from civil suit(s).
@Blink
Can you explain what Lea meant by this? Was she referring to Rudy? Or TMH?
“The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
thanx
vw
@vw. I wasn’t criticizing aspects of any Portland institutions.
I was commenting directly on the response of the public when issues arise.
—apparent public apathy in the media, in civic forums in public pressure when malfeasance or corruption or incompetence is both clearly evident and against public interest, observations made only from readings on this case & in press. All towns and cities have these issues. Portland seems profoundly individualistic absent outside intervention.
Blink,
Thanks for a pouring of some into the ol’ thinking goblet.
xoxo’s
YW anytime I have anything to pour.
B
is this the first year engineeringforkids.net
is running an after school enrichment at Skyline?
(advertised in Eaglesnest)
@erose.
the antiquated statute re email , & its implication for civil
litigation:
http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/11/petraeus-and-the-cloud.html
note the accessibility distinction (search warrant vs subpoena) for hard drive versus cloud storage.
T. Ruth says:
November 14, 2012 at 2:05 pm
According to this Kyron was in the gym, sans Terri.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/98434609.html
(snipped)
Meanwhile, investigators are re-interviewing people who say they saw Kyron at Skyline School the day he disappeared.
One person who has been asked again about what he saw is Skyline seventh-grader Tyler Kessinger, whose science fair project was on antimatter. He said investigators came back to interview him last week at his home.
“I just saw him (Kyron) in the gym, and I saw the truck out in the parking lot,” he said Wednesday. Kessinger said Kyron was looking at other students’ science fair projects, seemed happy and was with friends.
Kessinger said he hopes it’s all cleared up soon because it’s a frightening situation for him.
“Just knowing someone took him and not coming out and confessing, and that he’s probably in some other random place,” he said.
He said when he saw Kyron in the gym he didn’t see Terri Horman with him. He and his family have turned over pictures they took at the science fair to investigators, but they’ve been asked not to disclose the timeframe in which he saw Kyron.
************
Sounds like there may be photos to confirm Tyler’s story. Tyler says when he saw Kyron, (in the gym), he was looking at other kids’ science projects. Therefore, there must have been projects set up in the gym. The question is, why did LE ask the Kessinger’s not to reveal the time Tyler saw Kyron sans Terri.
I know how that reads, but if you recall the projects were actually dropped off Thursday, and that is the gym reference, specifically, because you can’t see the parking lot from the gym.
B
************
I gotcha, but the very first sentence said that Tyler was re-interviewed (among others) about “the day Kyron disappeared” Friday. Also, from what I interpret here, and from Tyler’s video, is that Tyler never said he saw the truck from the gym. He does say he saw Kyron in the gym on Friday (the day Kyron disappeared) sans Terri. Independently he says he saw the truck in the parking lot that same day. We don’t know when, we don’t know from what angle or where he was located at the time. Nor do we know the time frame of any of it. JMO, but I didn’t take his sentence to mean he saw Kyron in the gym AND the truck in the parking lot at the same time, from the same space at all. I do draw the conclusion from the report though, that it was definitely on Friday, the day Kyron disappeared, that he recollected seeing both, with possible corroborating photos.
If that’s not the case, then there are huge errors in the reports that circulated, because IIRC KATU is not the only one who reported this.
Help????
“I know how that reads, but if you recall the projects were actually dropped off Thursday, and that is the gym reference, specifically, because you can’t see the parking lot from the gym.
B”
Blink,
Sorry, I’m not quite understanding.
1. Do you mean Tyler saw Kyron in the gym on Thursday AND the Horman truck in the parking lot also on Thursday?
2. Did he see the Horman truck in the parking lot on Friday, as opposed to the shoulder area along Skyline?
3. Do you know which parking area Tyler is referencing? If there was an exterior door ajar in the gym, vehicles may have been visible.
Thank you x3.
I dunno what Tyler saw exactly, I have never interviewed him, and I personally would not report a child’s statement in this case. I was responding to the media link, which, imo, was interpretable.
B
TY for the article. All should read. New meaning for, “Hey, hey, you, you, get off (or in this case out) of my cloud.” We had a discussion awhile ago about virtual filing cabinets, and perhaps the implications of RS’s data making it’s way through the court system (possibly KH’s 5 year comment).
It seems the legal boundaries are loosely forming, right or wrong. The cloud is being pushed as a storage solution with no thought to consequence of privacy, let alone “poof” my cloud is gone, do I or my bank account exist? The Cloud = Big Brother IMO.
Rose says:
November 14, 2012 at 6:59 pm
@erose.
the antiquated statute re email , & its implication for civil
litigation:
http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/11/petraeus-and-the-cloud.html
note the accessibility distinction (search warrant vs subpoena) for hard drive versus cloud storage.
Oooohhhhh . . . okay, Blink. My mistake. I confused myself thinking “they were never in the gym” was connected to the media’s Tyler interview/article. Okay, okay.
Yep, understood, I could have been more on point myself-
B
I went back to the pumpkin farm and was surprised to find it listed on the Bethany Athletic Club site. (aka country club?)
Plumper Pumpkin Patch & Tree Farm, LLC
Family owned farm located on 65 acres of rolling hills. We sell homemade jam, honey, peppers, tomatoes, pumpkins, squash, and Christmas trees. We have educational spring field trips in May where the children plant pumpkins and see live bee hives. Fall field trip starting in September. We are open daily in late September until October 31 and on weekends in December.
Jim Kessinger
11435 NW Old Cornelius Pass Road Portland, OR 97231
http://www.bethanyathletic.com/member_business_directory/entertainment_and_recreation/
Mr. Kessinger was 18 yrs at Intel ’79-’97 ’til he traded? it all in for the rural farm life of pumpkin patch owner and tree grower and livestock farmer. Wife Peggy in finance, also formerly from Intel. Anyone know if these are the parents, or grandparents of the potential witness? I’m sure we have been over this, many months ago.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-kessinger/b/742/567
http://www.linkedin.com/in/peggykessinger
One of the things that bothers me about Kessinger’s account (from TRuth’s link)
http://www.katu.com/news/local/98434609.html
“He and his family have turned over pictures *they* took at the science fair to investigators,…”
I can only find one Kessinger on the SF list. I found Peggy’s mother’s obit and that last name is Flaherty, assuming it’s Peggy’s maiden name. None on the SF list. So who are the “they” that took pictures, meaning who are the “they” in his family? Or is this another case of sloppy reporting?
@erose. Bethany’s is just a new name for a gym whose membership you buy plus monthly fee, like sports club/LA, Washinton Sports Club etc. Just tore up a new mailing yesterday from new local “athletic club.” You either got for a market lured by tge promise of “extreme” or one lured by an upscale feel.
@erose says:
November 15, 2012 at 5:25 am
Interesting about the May field trip, hadn’t seen that one before.
I wondered in the beginning, how Tyler knew Kyron, also would know Terri & what kind of truck she drove. It appears that the Horman family used to visit a different pumpkin patch, on SI? I think it was, can’t remember now, but I wondered why they wouldn’t instead visit the patch of a former Intel employee who also has a son who attends Skyline with Kyron, which is also much closer to their home. Initially, I was wondering about some sort of disgruntled Intel employee. My gut feeling is any of that would have already been discovered by LE by now. Again, the more I know (which ain’t much) and the longer this goes on, the more I think stranger abduction.
Did someone say earlier on here, that the older Skyline kids mentored the younger ones in a reading class? Is it possible Tyler was Kyron’s reading buddy? Maybe that’s how they knew each other. Tyler sounded like a very nice and caring kid in his interview.
IDK, seems like everyone knows everyone around there. Which again, makes me lean toward stranger abduction.
Sometimes I wonder if the reason LE focused on Terri, is simply due to *hope*. The *hope* that some stranger didn’t just walk off the street into that school and take a child. I feel PPS harbors the same *hope*, and therefore were sucked into the Terri scenario, *can’t happen here, it must have been the stepmom, she was confusing, you know.*
Kind’a like Desiree & Kaine not being able to accept the fact that Kyron may be deceased. *So it must have been Terri set it up, and Kyron is stashed somewhere.*
*Hope* is an interesting word. Note one of the meanings is *assumptions*, and the opposite of hope is despair and disbelief.
Definition: longing; dream
Synonyms: Utopia, achievement, ambition, anticipation, aspiration, assumption, belief, bright side, buoyancy, castles in air, concern, confidence, daydream, dependence, desire, endurance, expectancy, expectation, faith, fancy, fool’s paradise, fortune, gain, goal, greedy glutton, hopefulness, light at end of tunnel, optimism, pipe dream, promise, promised land, prospect, reliance, reverie, reward, rosiness, sanguineness, security, stock, thing with feathers, wish
Antonyms: despair, disbelief, discouragement, hopelessness, pessimism
*****************
I just hope this investigation hasn’t been based on false hope.
@erose says:
November 15, 2012 at 5:25 am
erose, “they” could have meant Tyler and his father, Jim, both took pictures.
I posted a few pages back the name of Kyron’s reading buddy. I think she was 12. Maybe Tyler was in her class. It is a school from a tight community so people know eachother, and I see that, so stranger abduction, yes I can see that too, but wouldn’t it have to be a stranger everybody knew to be able to go undetected at the SF?
T. Ruth says:
November 15, 2012 at 1:08 pm
Make that a stranger “somebody” knew to be able to go undetected.
Retraction again. Close knit community, everybody knows everybody, but extended family members might come to the SF. Also, a complete stranger could show up and be mistaken for some one’s extended family member. You’re right TRuth. A total stranger could have just walked in there and taken a child. Reason says that the person would know the layout of the school, and maybe SZ volunteered prior, was there prior, or just walked around the school on a weekend when no one was there. A complete stranger possibility exists. Why would Kyron comply with a stranger? Who did this person represent himself to be? I hate this.
jeepers, just noticed this particular school exit/entrance door:
Kyron’s classroom is #213.
Looking at the floor plan there are stairs at the end of the long hallway – - past the front entrance and the gym, at the end of Room #201.
school layout/floor plans image:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8203.40
Doing a rotate at this link will show the side and the entrance (same side as the gym and the other door further down):
http://binged.it/StVLGz
Also noticed on the floor plan, directly across from Kyron’s classroom door is a short hallway leading past Rooms #215/217 to a door at the end that opens to a shorter hallway “space” that leads to the door of the Mechanical Room. Don’t know if the Mechanical Room has a door to the outside.
Rose says:
November 14, 2012 at 4:38 pm
@vw. I wasn’t criticizing aspects of any Portland institutions.
I was commenting directly on the response of the public when issues arise.
—apparent public apathy in the media, in civic forums in public pressure when malfeasance or corruption or incompetence is both clearly evident and against public interest, observations made only from readings on this case & in press. All towns and cities have these issues. Portland seems profoundly individualistic absent outside intervention.
Hi Rose. I know you were not. But I was :>), I and many others are very critical of the PPD, and MCSO. If you read about the comments on proposed sales taxes, or votes to reduce the disability/pension excesses of PPD/Fire when it hits them in the pocket there are a lot of voters fuming. But in general, unless the everyday Josephine reads up when MCSO is in the news, and follows their cases, they are just fine with them tending to the jails and doing what they do best…finding lost hikers on Mt. Hood. Your points are well-taken. I had no idea how bad PPD was regarding “suicide-by-cop” and other issues until this case. Then I watched and read and paid attention when I went to the courthouse for various reasons. And after comparing the MCSO treatment of Kyron’s case with Tucson and Gresham’s efforts to engage the public and welcome their help, I was totally unable to swing back. It’s all a Song of Experience for me (and many others). I’m also very frustrated with the Oregonian. Maxine is very competent in reporting the excesses of PPD and the “slaps” by the feds. But she has treated this case with kid gloves, not holding MCSO to any standard of proficiency and not questioning their strategies. Not even reporting other evidence that contradicts the version of the case that LE wants to present. It’s almost as if she was bought off in a sense.
And with WW dropping the story altogether, that tainted version is all the public gets.
And, to make it worse, whenever those who question that Dede or TMH are the only suspects, their comment sections are immediately shut down by those who don’t believe their voice should be heard. And, indeed, if a dissenting voice is heard (via TJ-types) they are labled as abetters in the “crime”. I just had to shut down most of my blog for awhile as they were trolling for personal information to threaten me with.
It’s not easy to have your voice heard, sometimes.