Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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As as addendum to the above post. Where do we draw the line? PPS and LE must have been talking. And serious, very serious stakes were driven.
National attention. World-wide interest. How would LE/school negligence be balanced with the rights and fairness of constitutional safeguards of the individual.
ASA Bergeson’s case has always bothered me- this is a case, imo, that releasing details would absolutely produce leads that would ultimately lead to a prosecution-
I want to amplify your sentiment of the spiritual connection of unsolved cases- in particular murder.
Likely an oversimplified and subjective observation on my part- but I truly believe the weight of that hangs on the universe like some freaky barometric un-friendly blanket.
B
Moi, too. She lived just up the street. Why did they drop this case? Why is this one not importantt? Her soul is left in Limbo. More than prayers should free her soul.
What are the chances that SZ was one of the “searchers” that afternoon or over the weekend? Isn’t that one of the scenarios for these types – to follow closely what is going on, even insert themselves?
Did KH and/or TMH do any searching? I don’t know how they could have NOT gone looking for him.
I wonder if the answer is right in front of everyone, just a few points missing to tie it all together? It just doesn’t seem that TMH was intelligent enough to carry off an elaborate plot, even planned in advance.
But then, parents do bad things sometimes. I’m sort of remembering Facebook pictures (forgot the link) where there were tons of pictures of everyone and then suddenly there were just tons of pictures of Kiara. –none of the others. Of course, that’s easily explained if Kyron was in school most of the time.
I still don’t think you take hundreds of pictures of somebody you don’t care for. Maybe Kiara just moved to the #1 spot in ‘mommy’s’ eyes. Poor little Kyron. How lost he must have felt (and couldn’t go and stay with DY because KH wouldn’t let him go). But with James there, that must have helped a lot.
They seemed to happy (from the pictures) for a while, but who knows what kinds of things go on in families? I sure hope they find him (and desperately hope he is OK). How terrible and how depressing it would be for all those who care if the news isn’t good.
Well, Mags, the conundrum for me about the morning times and imagining phone calls going out is I don’t know what the facts are regarding the
doctor’s appointment and the communications between Kyron’s teacher and TH.
The afternoon, however, is not so much a conundrum.
* the talent show (note – an unnamed mother told the media her child who was supposed to perform WITH KYRON was called to the Grand Jury)
* the preparation of packing up, putting on their outerwear and the leaving of the students from Room 213 to go home
and
* Kyron’s lone jacket and back-pack I presume hanging in plain sight
. . . is maddening to me that no action was taken to check on Kyron’s whereabouts.
Yes, I believe from what I have read to date the school should be seriously held to answer for the disappearance of one of their students.
The school, however, did not “disappear” him.
Regarding the going out of a phone call, though, I cannot exclude the possibility someone was “waiting” for a phone call from the school at some point.
jmo’s
ps
Would be interesting to know if there was a rehearsal for the talent show the day before, Thursday, June 3.
Ms. Porter’s first reaction to when she was told Kyron was not with the group, was that he was probably in the bathroom. It was not- he had a Dr. appt. That info was only brought into the picture when it was learned he was actually missing and 911 was called. She marked him absent by 10 am.
I have to believe that protocol to withdraw your child during the school day is that you have to sign them out at the office.
It was and is clear to me Ms. Porter did not have an immediate expectation Ky was not supposed to be there, his things were still in the classroom and Ms. Porter did not so much as check with the office to determine if he had been signed out.
To my knowledge, Ky was not scheduled to preform in the talent show, and that was confirmed by KH and DY- who initially knew nothing about the show as indicated in their interviews.
However, that does not mean an offender (sz) did not think the school was wide open all day as a result- or use that intel in some way. I always found KH description of Ky that morning ( I can’t recall but it was something like nervous or antsy) odd. It is my understanding the talent show was voluntary.
It just boggles my noggin the school has not been named in the suit if the goal was to provide answers as to how Kyron went missing when they know he did not leave with Terri.
B
“She marked him absent by 10 am.”
Blink,
If not the remembrance of a Dr.’s appointment, what else could have been in Ms.P’s head to mark Kyron absent?
He was not in the class, and she must have realized he was not in the bathroom. Did she reconcile it in her mind she remembered the exchange with TH the day before and make an assumption – perhaps.
I would have to know their “system” they use. My children’s schools use powerschool, which the teacher takes attendance in every class real time. They have very specific codes to input and it is coordinated with the office- where the child must be picked up, and can only be picked up by a parent or a designated grandparent (this is submitted at the beginning of every school year) with a note submitted by the parent which is verified by calling a designated attendance line that has a dedicated person- IN ADVANCE.
AND THEN.. if it is for dental/medical- a signed appt by the DDS or MD must accompany the child upon return. I can’t even pick Blinkette up off the team bus without returning to school unless I have prior approval from the AD and Head coaches who know me well, and present my DL every time.
All this said, I studied a case of a serial rapist/murderer who conned the school into letting him interview a peer of his imaginary daughter in consideration of potentially enrolling his kids under the auspice he was a Dr considering a position at the local hospital. He had nothing more than a fake DL and lanyard. An overt example, but an example of an offender not knowing a single person in the facility and walking out with a victim.
B
@redrose. If it is a SZ of Blink’s profile, I remember her saying he would not want his high to be interrupted. He wanted to sustain it. So I don’t think he searched.
I am reminded of Colorado LE’s public appeal in the case of A Sigg. They asked the public about a male who wasn’t where he was supposed to be that morning. Say at work or school, or in this case the reverse as well, someone who was to be at Skyline but wasn’t. MCSO never asked citizens to reflect on someone who was not in his place for a few hours Friday morning
Rose brings up an important contrast. There was, and continued to be attempted stranger abductions near schools and within a manageable distance to Skyline. Absent direct evidence implicating Terri- why did MCSO take a similar approach as WPD? Let’s face it, Sigg was nowhere on their radar and the profile REMAINS incongruent with Sigg overall.
I have been studying an “antique” case for the last few weeks in great detail, I cannot decide yet if I will write on it- but I will tell you I am firm in my opinions of late that LE in general, with few applauded exceptions, is VERY resistant to saying “What if we are wrong”. Add in to the equation where there might be investigative errors- it is disheartening.
B
Blink,
Perhaps I’ve been a little soft in expressing my feelings on the school and their “deficiencies” regarding the safety of their students.
I am BEYOND ANGRY.
As to why legal action against the school is not being persued by DY (AT THIS TIME), I can only guess the strategy discussed and decided before the filing of the civil case – - where the priority is to find Kyron – - includes the taking of multiple depositions from the school during the course of discovery.
imo, it would not have been prudent to file suit against the school AND ITS UMBRELLA at the onset, if you know what I mean.
Well prudent or not, it does preserve certain standing- however, the complaint is so uber vague and allows for the addition of parties “as they go”, so the strategy as I interpret it was more one of preservation of the suit largely in danger of dismissal if the judge is sitting there hearing motions to abate and or dismiss based on similar witness issues we are seeing with Spicher.
So perhaps they were hopeful not naming the school would allow witnesses to speak freely in a deposition?
Maybe, but then we know that there are witnesses that are school employees that saw suspect zero.
So if LE can’t put TH with an unknown person, yet there are witnesses to this occurring after TH left, and the suit specifies he was taken from the school, you are never proving he left the state, and you are never
Irt Rosenthal was surprised as the next person when Wagner signed on, and that in itself implies TH will defend this suit and not take a default or judgement. This is why I have always said it is my biggest fear that DY has not been properly prepared for all outcomes.
This suit will interfere with the potential prosecution of this case, no way around that, regardless of who is responsible or negligent, imo. That said, I don’t feel like DY felt like she had any other choice, and I do respect that.
B
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/still_no_trace_of_kyron_horman.html
Nora Schreiber, a Skyline parent and volunteer, said the school has three main entrances and one secure exit. Two of the doorways are near the main office and are monitored, while a third on the north side of the school is not. Kyron’s classroom is adjacent to that door, which opens onto a rear parking lot.
Schreiber said she and her son, Jacob, 9, were interviewed Sunday by a federal agent. She said she told the agent that Friday was an especially hectic day at Skyline.
“On a normal day, seeing a stranger will make you go, ‘Hmm. I wonder who that is?’ On such a hectic day as Friday, there was such a lot going on. To tell you the truth, I was focused on looking at the (science) project and helping Jacob fill out his (evaluation) form and not on the faces around me.”
Schreiber said Kyron was supposed to perform in the school’s talent show at 1 p.m. but she didn’t see him there.
***************
It was my understand, from what a local had said transpired the previous year, (Or maybe it was a memo I once saw a copy of, can’t remember anymore), the kids did a short rehearsal the day before the talent show of whatever their act was going to be. If that is true, I wonder what time of day the practice was held? I ask because neighbor said Kaine Horman was seen on Thursday, June 3rd at the school. Would not he have known that Kyron practiced his bit that day?
If Ky was supposed to participate in the talent show, I can tell you as a fact neither KH nor DY knew about it. In fact, doesn’t that give another wide oppty for someone to say- Where is Kyron, he was here this morning and so are his things?? So did the act go on with without him?
Again I say, how can one be an utter idiot to arrange the kidnapping of their child when she was the last person SEEN with him, literally during the time their baby is in tow, leave his belongings in plain view to prompt his known absence within minutes, be lucky enough to have it excused away, then be missed again for hours for a commitment he was supposed to be involved in on a day he was slated to head to his Mom’s (allegedly, I have my doubts on that) the day before your other son is due for a week visit you nor your family has seen in months, one week before the end of school where Ky was due to spend the bulk of the Summer with his Mom and Step Father.
AND
Be smart enough to plan so exceptionally well that an alien tractor beam is a real possibility?
The applied risk theory, logic, and victimology tell me that is really as close to impossible as one gets.
And the kicker is, MCSO’s well-intentioned but abysmal failure investigatively cut off the one person who can contribute to Ky’s victimology profile better than his biological parents.
I know, I am not saying anything new.
B
@wpg. Your theory of plaintiff case litigation is altruistic and attributes “gracefulness” –I can’t find the right word — a winsome intent by plaintiff’s litigators.
Imo Rosenthal recognizes Desiree is his client, not Kyron.
He is litigating Desiree’s theory of the case, as he should, not his own,
and is not standing in the stead of LE to “find Kyron,”
however the suit is dressed up PR-wise.
The ability to add parties I believe means DD, not the school.
She did not file against the school timely.
Would like to hear from Lea as to whether PPS could be added at any time.
Also as to whether or not most school testimony if taken in depo would ever be
admitted in trial in this particular cause of action unless it’s just to show Terri’s state of mind
that day.
@Blink. If FBI or Portland cold case PPB took over the lead, do you think House would let Terri sit down with him and the new victimology profiler and do that piece of work?
I think the critical leads are those who saw Kyron with possible SZ–where they
intersected at the school. And any id of possible exit transport vehicles
8 a.m. Skyline Elementary, 11536 N.W. Skyline Blvd., opens early so students and parents can tour the science fair. A billboard outside reads: “June 4, I.B. Inquiry Expo, 8-10, Talent show, 1-2:45.” Kyron was to take part in both the expo/science fair and the talent show.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
(I would imagine the above timeline would have been updated, were there knowledge by now that he was not to be in the talent show, being as they did bother to state the backtracking of LE about the 9:00 a.m. sighting.)
***************
Who ran the talent show? Did they wonder where Kyron was? Did they ask Kyron’s teacher where he was? Again, we have a coat and backpack still hanging in the classroom, we have another adult who knows Kyron is supposed to be in the talent show, Nora Shreiber. Who else knew that? Wasn’t there a little person who was supposed to do something with him? (Or did I make that up?)
Then there’s this from the November Dateline (transcribed by a friend):
KS: Also at the fair that morning was C***** L****, who was one of Kyron’s best buddies.
CL: I met him when I was in first grade and he was in kindergarten. He is a good friend. He is a fast runner. He ….likes legos and star wars like me….
KS: C*****’s mom thought it would be therapeutic for her son to talk about Kyron.
C*****’s mom: He’s been having trouble sleeping because he misses Kyron…
KS: A special friend who was there one day, and gone the next.
CL: We were going to have a play-date cuz I was asking him, and then, he was gone.
KS: Must have made you kind of sad.
CL: (nods)
KS: What were you going to do at that play-date?
CL: I was gonna bring some of my legos, but …. he didn’t have time cuz he got missing.
KS: C***** remembers that the morning of the science fair he saw Kyron with his project. “How was he feeling about that project?”
CL: He was happy and he loves to learn about the red-eyed tree frog because he wants to know what… lots of stuff.”
KS: Gina Zimmerman also has a distinct recollection of seeing both Kyron and his step-mom Terri at the science fair, and this is important: She places Terri and Kyron at the school around 8:30 a.m., which starts the timeline of Terri’s day. Gina even remembers chatting with Terri about some school t-shirts.
GZ: I let her know that they weren’t ready yet, that they would be ready the next week. And she said “Oh, that’s okay. I just wanted…Kyron’s going down to his Medford family and we had ordered some for Desiree, and….”
KS: She was planning ahead, she was looking forward……?
GZ: Right. She was planning on sending those t-shirts down with…..with Kyron.
(snipped)
KS: In that moment, Gina couldn’t know that that photo of Kyron would soon be posted all over Portland, and across the US, as part of a nationwide effort to find him, and bring him home. She saw nothing amiss that morning as Kyron and Terri Horman wrapped up their tour of the science fair. Then it was time for Terri to say goodbye to Kyron and leave the school.
“Terri Horman said around 8:45 in the morning the last time she saw her step-son Kyron Horman, he was walking down this hallway in his school on his way to his second grade classroom.”
It’s unclear exactly who, if anyone, saw Kyron after that point, or where. But Ms Porter started class at 10 a.m., time for the kids to return to their home room and take their seats. It’s at this point that C***** L**** remembers noticing that something wasn’t right.
CL: I went to sit in my seat, and looked back. He wasn’t there. And then a couple more minutes, I looked back, and then after lunch….and I kept on looking back to see if he came back, but he never came back.
*******************
GZ is confirming, btw, that according to Terri, Kyron was indeed supposed to be heading south for the weekend. I am assuming that this conversation between GZ & TH took place at the same time she saw Terri taking the picture in the classroom, around 8:30 a.m.
I would like to know, when Desiree Young received the email about the t-shirts, that she herself said she received and IIRC said was “irrelevant”. Did she ever respond to Terri?
Up at least until 8:30 a.m., everyone who saw Kyron at that school said he looked happy. Also TK said the same thing, he saw Kyron looking at other kids’ projects in the gym and looked happy. (Unfortunately, we have no idea when that was.) Something that occurs to me, is if I’m a 7 year old kid (it’s been awhile, but) I think I would be more than a little ticked off if I had been told I couldn’t hang around for the science fair tours and I couldn’t be in the talent show that day, and I for sure know, I would have been voicing my displeasure to at least by best buddies. Didn’t happen. (Not that we know of anyway.)
Id like to know when CL was planning on bringing his legos over to the Hormans house? Kyron was supposedly heading south for the weekend, kids don’t usually plan things weeks in advance.
I would like to know if Desiree Young cancelled the weekend after she received Terri’s t-shirt email. That just may have ticked Terri off, could that have been a straw that broke the camel’s back? (Wouldn’t explain SZ, unless someone was already in the truck with Terri that morning.)
How is it Porter started class at 10:00 a.m.? According to everything we’ve been told classes started on time that day and, the kids were put into groups. Was Kyron in a group? If not, then what time period is CL referring to when he gets back to class and says that’s when he *first* notices Kyron is missing? When and where did CL see Kyron that morning? I know it’s a child talking, but he even looked for him to be there after lunch. If that’s the case, why would he do that if Porter had marked him absent because he had a doctor appointment?
How many people does it take to say “a kid is missing” to a teacher before that teacher questions what has gone on? Coat & backpack still there, substitute/chaperone questioning her, person running the talent show questioning her?, little TP & little CL, questioning her? Something just is not right here. I’m sure Porter must have had Terri’s phone # or email handy; she volunteered there. Why didn’t Ms. Porter, at least on her lunch break, make a call to Terri, to at the very least remind her his coat and backpack were still there, and ask if he would be coming back to participate in the talent show?
Hindsight, I know, it’s just infuriating.
*************
@Blink says:
“Be smart enough to plan so exceptionally well that an alien tractor beam is a real possibility?
LOL, I’m still thinking bear or dingo. (kidding)
Blink replies:
“I always found KH description of Ky that morning ( I can’t recall but it was something like nervous or antsy) odd.”
^ So did I, Blink. As a matter of fact I distinctly remember thinking if Kyron was nervous about the talent show (watched him on-stage in the family released video), he may be more apt to “leaving early” if it was offered to him.
That is ONE of the reasons why I asked about a Thursday June 3 rehearsal . . . another reason being reinforcement to the school that KYRON WAS NOT THERE TO PERFORM at 1pm June 4.
Thank you T.Ruth, for your recall on a rehearsal.
** Unfortunately the link to this article snippet no longer works:
“This comes at the same time that a Multnomah County grand jury continues to meet, with a 9-year-old classmate of Kyron’s being the latest to appear. The mother of the boy said she was not allowed inside and did not ask him about the secret proceeding. Her son and Kyron were
scheduled to perform together in the school talent show the afternoon of
his disappearance.”
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/Search-crews-near-Skyline-School-expected-to/EDGDIflt8065f2Pb5ARVrA.cspx
** snipped from OLive timeline:
2010
Friday, June 4
8 a.m. Skyline Elementary, 11536 N.W. Skyline Blvd., opens early so students and parents can tour the science fair. A billboard outside reads: “June 4, I.B. Inquiry Expo, 8-10, Talent show, 1-2:45.” Kyron was to take part in both the expo/science fair and the talent show.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
Bink says: “but I will tell you I am firm in my opinions of late that LE in general, with few applauded exceptions, is VERY resistant to saying “What if we are wrong”.
Can you imagine the fallout if LE admited they were wrong? And what if Rudy lied? What if there was never a MFH plot?
1) The community would be outraged and possibly in panic-mode again.
2) PPS would most certainly be sued.
3) Terri and Kaine’s relationship severed for no reason.
4) A mom held hostage without seeing her child for two years.
5) A media frenzy
This just touches the surface. Would LE hold out admitting they could be worng to avoid the fallout? If Terri is innocent, I doubt Bunch will let this story go away quietly.
Ms Porter calls the office:
“Gee, the substitue/volunteer who had (or was suppose to have)Kyron in her small-tour group just noticed he was missing. At first I thougt he might be in the bathroom. Then I remember Terri mentioning something about a Dr. appointment. I’m actually not sure though. Could you please call the family to make sure they have him? Thanks.”
Simple!
MockingbirdSings says:
November 17, 2012 at 8:42 pm
^ MockingbirdSings,
I always appreciate hearing comments from your professional point of view and experience. Thank you (and thank you in advance).
I thought there something different about Kyron’s expression, his eyes, in that particular last known photo (compared to the photos I had access to being a non-FB member).
Yes, a sedative of some kind entered my mind, but, like you, when KH much later revealed the sleepless nights I went “oh”.
fwiw, a similar expression from a past photo, imo, was the one of Kyron in a white dress shirt, which, coincidentally, appears to be the same white shirt he wore in the video of his past on-stage school group-performance.
Maybe nervousness is what I see, IDK.
Interesting, though, that Kyron’s v-shaped birthmark on his forehead is visible in that last known photo, considering that DY said it tends to rear up when Kyron is upset or crying (how about nervous?).
Thanks, Blink! Love your comment about an alien tractor beam! You have done an excellent job of summarizing the situation with Kyron. My husband was a school principal, involved all of his life with schools, and I taught for 33 years. From the information I’ve read, my best conclusion is that someone in a high position of authority is involved in a serious cover-up because no one would ever be expected to believe such an impossible story!
We’ve heard some really incredible stories when a family has a child in trouble as the parents try to justify or explain behaviors that are impossible and totally not valid from a logical standpoint. But I think that’s what you have been saying now for several years!
Unfortunately, hindsight sometimes shows us that often the lack of diligent investigation by the police or district attorney gives an advantage to the “bad guy”. Specific case: Jaycee Lee Dugard was hidden for 18 years! The man and wife that took Elizabeth Smart were known to the family and in the community and yet she was hidden “In Plain Sight.”
See, that’s the part I don’t get.
If there are witnesses who SAW SZ, they would have told LE. How else would we know this? They may not have known the person, but they SAW SZ and said so, right?, so LE knows. Maybe they have given a description only, but why hasn’t LE published any of this information? How can you move forward if nobody sez nuthin’? A little boy is lost and nobody seems to think it’s important enough to ask for the public’s help. I have a lot of respect for LE, but can’t for the life of me figure out why they are just SITTING on this.
I also wondered if they are trying to keep the focus of everyone on TMH so they can blindside the bad guy and thereby catch him. Well, two years plus is way too long. Someone needs to rock their boat.
@wpg says: November 18, 2012 at 10:52 am
Blink wrote: …Maybe, but then we know that there are witnesses that are school employees that saw suspect zero.
So if LE can’t put TH with an unknown person, yet there are witnesses to this occurring after TH left, and the suit specifies he was taken from the school, . . .
B
btw wpg, my comment meant, as well, you think winsomely and altruistically,
while not having rose colored glasses or naivitee.
It was meant as a compliment. I look forward to your thoughts.
wpg says:
November 18, 2012 at 9:52 am
“She marked him absent by 10 am.”
Blink,
If not the remembrance of a Dr.’s appointment, what else could have been in Ms.P’s head to mark Kyron absent?
Blink says:
He was not in the class, and she must have realized he was not in the bathroom. Did she reconcile it in her mind she remembered the exchange with TH the day before and make an assumption – perhaps.
I would have to know their “system” they use.
—————————————————
Since we are all into repeating ourselves, here I go again –
The school SHOULD have had kids go to class and checked attendance at the 8:45 start time because they did NOT have district permission for a late opening and kids arrived on buses around 8:30 AM. Most certainly, they should at least have taken role at 9 AM when they met in classrooms to form groups AND AGAIN at 10.
However, it’s hard to say if it would have mattered to Mrs. Porter because she knew Kyron was there that morning whether she was taking roll before 10 or not.
Blink – I do not believe there is any K-12 school in this area with a functioning system as tight as the one you describe unless it’s a private school I am unaware of. IMO, districts have policies but individual schools become overconfident and busy and start making exceptions, and it spreads as individual staff members move thither and yon – they never seem to tighten it up until some incident forces them to, and even then it isn’t permanent – entropy always increases.
The following nine calendar dates are designated as Oregon Judicial Department mandatory state court closure dates:
•Friday, November 25, 2011
•Friday, March 23, 2012
•Friday, May 25, 2012
•Friday, August 17, 2012
•Friday, October 19, 2012
•Friday, November 23, 2012
•Friday, January 18, 2013
•Friday, April 19, 2013
•Friday, May 24, 2013
http://courts.oregon.gov/Multnomah/General_Info/Going_to_Court/pages/furloughclosures.aspx
Why would anyone (KH or DY) lie about where Ky was to spend the weekend the week he disappeared?
Fact: LE knows whether or not Kyron was scheduled for a doctor appointment. LE also knows, if there was one, when it was.
IMO, if there was no doctor appointment scheduled, Terri Horman would be in jail. Kaine even has implied agreement there was a doctor appointment.
So, if it was scheduled for the 4th, Kyron would have been expected to be there, and if Terri planned his disappearance, why in the heck would she plan it for a day he had an appointment? Obviously, if she’s writing emails the next couple days talking about it publicly, it didn’t just slip her mind.
So, if it was scheduled for the 11th AND she gave Porter paperwork for such appointment, as she has already told us she did (via Jaymie Finster) on Thursday, June 3rd, then there should have been no confusion by Porter.
Here’s my question. Where is the paperwork? Was it part of what was missing when LE finally got around to asking for attendance records? Or, if Terri lied to Jaymie, and there was no paperwork at all….just a casual across the room call out to Porter……then who is to blame for excusing Kyron from school that day?
Porter acknowledges she knew Kyron had an appointment. So where the heck is the paper work? The only thing I can figure is Porter indeed said there was paperwork exchanged, but she says it said the 4th…….which would also lead to Terri’s arrest, and since she hasn’t been arrested, I’m guessing that is part of the “attendance records” that the school somehow didn’t keep. How odd is that? Considering that the school knew from the get go they were under question and lawyered up immediately. One would certainly think any lawyer worth his salt would immediately tell that school to not purge anything. Keep it all, keep everything and anything about that day, so we can prove, if needed, that we were NOT negligent. You betcha. Unless, someone(s) in that school knew they were negligent and got rid of stuff. Fishy, fishy, fishy.
Does this make sense? Wouldn’t an attorney say whoa, don’t move anything…..unless someone was trying to hide something?
It’s all about the school, IMO.
@Blink, First, the answer is Always, as I imagine anyone posting here, we all so appreciate your insight and direction. It was a post of TRuth’s that opened my mind to that question. TRuth, Rose, Malty, WPG, MBS, RedRose, VW, Mags and all, thank you for challenging the thought process, contributing to our collective cause and just being so thoughtful and thought inspiring.
If RS is deemed credible, and TH was not involved, then some pieces fall in to place for me. Rose, yes, a SZ picked on a family in a hot mess, knowingly or not. Mags, I am definitely with you about the school. VW what you said about LE and PPS coordinating with each other is probably true (for the greater good, and to avoid public panic.) That is no way to problem solve, IMO.
To me the Stanton remark, of things we wished we did not know, always spoke to something higher than a family abduction. I think he was teared up at the institutional failure to protect a child.
Like Blink says, we really can’t exclude much of any scenario, and with that, I have to wonder how people can continue to focus on only one.
snip>
If that is to me erose, yes, there is. If this was a crime of opportunity by SZ having nothing to do with what was going on with TH/RS/KH/DY.
erose says:
November 17, 2012 at 3:10 am
I am not so sure, Blink, that Kyron was actually marked absent at all, and certainly not at 10am proper. That is the time that teachers MUST report by. But…thinking about it, it would be the LEAST likely time that Ms Porter would have to go over to her computer and plug in the absence. The kids were regrouping, she wasn’t sure if Kyron was in the bathroom,…..etc..
It would not have taken DAYS to verify this 10AM marking of the absence.. When esis is engaged, the mark is readily available to to any office personel, and CERTAINLY to Shelby or any Communcations Spokesperson for the district. Friday PM. Weekend. or Early the next week.
I’m looking now at Olive, Katu, KGW’s reports for June 4th-9th. Beginning on the 7th, LE is backtracking and the 9am – 10am sightings of Kyron are already being times that “might jeapordize the investigation”.
@rose
Not ever without immunity in place. With it, yes I do believe he would facilitate.
@T.Ruth
Excellent post, I am not sure I recall ever seeing that before.
My question is, was GZ specifically quoted that she was told ky was headed to Medford that weekend, or was Th fine with the tshirt delay because JW was not headed to Medford until the end of the school year.
Anything out there more specific on that email to dy that day?
Again TH pretty active on her phone that day.
@MBS
That is just horrifying to hear.
@bumble
Who is accusing either of lying?
I have yet to find a source that directly quotes both or either as to the stated plans for kyrons visitation travels that weekend. If you have a verifiable direct source that would be helpful.
@vw
Esis?
@vw. after the absence is entered (or not entered) into esis for the day, can the entry (or nonentry) of an absence be altered? if it can be altered, can it only be altered by the teacher, or can the principal, school secr, or an admin access her classroom reporting & add an absence mark?
If it can be altered after 10 am, by Ms P or any other employee, how is an absence mark, or nonmark, evidence of anything?
jmo . . .
One of the biggest calling cards that Kyron did not return to class was his 3 feet tall science project standing on his desk.
The projects were to be on display until 10am, so when it came time for the projects to be removed from the desks in order for Kyron’s classmates to sit down and resume class, who moved Kyron’s project?
And when exactly . . . when it was noticed to be standing alone once the mates removed their own projects or by Ms.P at the same time the classmates were taking theirs down because she already thought/knew/remembered Kyron was off to the Dr.’s?
!
O/T
posted in the recent Megan Sharpton thread
Susan 2 says:
November 18, 2012 at 7:29 pm
“Skeletal remains found behind shopping plaza At Turkey Lake Road and Sandlake Road in Orlando, Florida. Could this possibly be Michele Parker or Jennifer Kesse? (WFTV,WESH,Orlando Sentinel,Local 13 News)
Christina Stoy says:
November 19, 2012 at 7:52 am
“@Susan 2
I have eyes on the ground on this, thanks for posting, the remains are with the me.”
@wpg, that is dr. G
Can anyone please post that on jenns last thread please?
I am on location and only have droid
Comments posted on Jennifer’s most recent thread as requested, Blink.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2012/03/06/jennifer-kesse-missing-new-evidence-and-new-leads-connect-to-old-names-in-casey-anthony-saga/comment-page-12/#comment-2074163
Just a passing thought, could Ms. Porter be involved with Kyron’s disappearance?
@wpg,
Thanks for the link of Kyron’s talent show partner. I knew it was out there somewhere.
@mbs Thanks for the court links.
So no court this Friday, wonder if something will be filed on Wednesday or if they’ll wait til Monday. Does anyone know what one would need to do if the abatement has already been two years? Can they abate for another two years? Can this go on forever?
***********************
@Blink replies:
“I always found KH description of Ky that morning ( I can’t recall but it was something like nervous or antsy) odd.”
Glad I’m not the only one. When I first heard him talk about his morning, it sounded……well, rehearsed. JMO of course. But when my ears really perked up was later on. He was telling the same story, only it was different. Instead of saying Kyron was excited about his project (as he did initially), he said he was nervous. Also, why would Kyron be “nervous” Friday morning? The project was already at school and from what I understand the reports were done Thursday.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/horman_family_answers_question.html (July 5, 2010)
When is the last time Kaine saw Kyron?
“I last saw him at about 7:45 am. He was coming back to the house after feeding our cat (Bootsie) and I was heading out to the car to head into the office. I walked over to him, told him I was extremely proud of him for the effort he put into his red-eyed tree frog project, and for him to have a great and fun day at the science fair. We talked about maybe going for a special treat and playing the Wii after school, and then I said ‘I love you.’ He said ‘I love you too, Dad,’ at which point we hugged, and then he went into the house as I got into the car and left. While I have not seen him since, that moment in time is still etched in my mind as if it just happened and is a constant reminder of the joy of having him as a son.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38420266/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/little-boy-lost/ (Aired July 26, 2010)
Just a few miles away, Kyron was at home getting ready for school. He was excited, couldn’t wait to show everyone his colorful diorama about the red-eyed tree frog. He’d worked really hard on it, and his dad knew it.
KAINE HORMAN: And just told him I was really proud of all the effort he put in on his project, he did a really great job, and gave him a big hug.
KATE SNOW: Did you tell him you loved him?
KAINE HORMAN: I did.
*************************
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/05/kaine_horman_endures_year_sinc.html (May 28, 2011)
The morning of his son’s absence is etched in Horman’s mind. He often replays their last conversation. Kyron was nervous about the science fair and his dad tried to calm him, saying he did a good job on his red-eyed tree frog project. It would be a good day. He would see his friends. They hugged, said “I love you,” and Horman left for a busy day at the office. He says Terri Horman knew for weeks he would not be able to attend the event. He wishes he had gone, but he doesn’t beat himself up with guilt.
***********
Why did Kaine’s story change from excited to nervous and he felt a need to calm him? Big difference IMO.
Christina Stoy says:
November 19, 2012 at 7:28 am
@T.Ruth
Excellent post, I am not sure I recall ever seeing that before.
My question is, was GZ specifically quoted that she was told ky was headed to Medford that weekend, or was Th fine with the tshirt delay because JW was not headed to Medford until the end of the school year.
Anything out there more specific on that email to dy that day?
Again TH pretty active on her phone that day.
***************
JW?
Thanks, my friend did an awesome job transcribing that November Dateline show from her TIVO. Desiree Young has said in an interview that there were 3 or 4 emails from Terri that day. She then says one was actually from the night before, but she did not respond to it until Friday. One was “something about t-shirts”, which Desiree called “irrelevant”. The other was about seeing the science fair project, and sending a picture of it. The other(s) was about “other stuff”.
*********************
I would like to respond to Bumble’s question. If Desiree Young cancelled the weekend via email that morning to Terri, it’s quite possible Kaine Horman didn’t know about it. OTOH, I’ve never been able to figure out how they were going to fit ice cream and computer games into an after school fun time when they would be heading to Medford. Why would Desiree Young not mention it? Doesn’t look good? IDK
In the story I posted above, Kaine Horman goes out of his way to tell the reporter that “Terri knew weeks before” he wouldn’t be able to attend the science fair. Why did he insert that? Why did both Kaine & Desiree think that Terri was possibly upset with them? Maybe, because both of them couldn’t be bothered with Kyron that day, maybe other days as well, who knows? J
Desiree couldn’t attend the science fair because of her work either. After the school called Desiree, and she talked with Terri, Desiree tells her she’s coming up there. Terri’s response: “You are?” WTH, if that’s not sarcasm for “oh, you couldn’t come up earlier for the science fair, but you can come up now?” Then I don’t know what is. I think this conversation, right here, may indeed be one of the reasons that Desiree & Kaine initially thought Terri hid Kyron somewhere, and that is the reason Desiree Young also said to herself, you’d better not have done something to my son. IDK, this is just a theory.
Christina Stoy says:
November 19, 2012 at 8:01 am
@vw
Esis?
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the short name for the computer system for attendance, etc.
My question –
I do know you can go back and change attendance data, for example unexcused absence to excused – parents were allowed 3 days to provide an excuse. What I’d like to know is whether those changes can be seen or found on the computer afterward.
So, for example in this case, if Mrs. Porter marked Kyron present, and then changed that to absent, would anyone be able to tell that change was made and when it was done?
Why, you ask? Perhaps to cover that a student was in your room, under your supervision, even if only for a few minutes and you couldn’t account for where the student went after that? Or, I think VERY unlikely but not impossible, to give someone a “head start” to be sure the absence did not show up until some time had passed during the day? The second possibility led me to wonder if anyone else could have had access to Mrs. Porter’s computer attendance files. In my experience in a high school, a secretary who helped with attendance could update information, and one vice principal could access the information. Some people are also not good about securing their passwords.
@TRuth. the form a pediatrician has a teacher fill out is a very simple 1 pg behavioral rating scale.
The pediatrician’s office does not write an appointment date on it.
Terri might’ve written on it a “needed by” date.
An excellent teacher would’ve completed it promptly
despite abduction & returned to Kaine for pediatrician’s files.
Imo it could’ve been important in a live return or for victimology.
Again imo, Mrs P likely just threw it in the trash when she cleaned out at end of the year.
@TRuth. re: “indeed said there was paperwork exchanged, but she says it said the 4th”
Do you have a source interview where Ms. P said “it” (the paperwork) said the 4th?
Desiree and Tony were interviewed at the Medford Police Dept. by the Medford paper in July, 2010. This has been my source of believing they were expecting Kyron the weekend of June 4th. I don’t believe the paper would have messed that up, especially without the distraction of Kaine and his answers.
snipped from July 7, 2010 interview in Medford:
During his many visits to Southern Oregon over the years, Kyron Horman enjoyed playing at Medford’s Fichtner-Mainwaring Park and camping with his mother and stepfather.
Kyron’s biological mother, Desiree Young, and stepfather, Tony Young, planned to see Kyron the evening of June 4, the day the 7-year-old disappeared in Portland.
“He’d been asking me to take him fishing for a while,” Tony Young said through tears during a press conference Tuesday at the Medford Police Department. “I had bought him a fishing pole for Christmas.”
http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100707/NEWS/7070321
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This one may have been based on the above – or not. I actually thought she nodded or said yes to this question at one of the video interviews, but I cannot find it.
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2012359358_missingboy15.html
Originally published Wednesday, July 14, 2010 at 6:54 PM (AP)
Desiree Young has said Terri Horman was supposed to drive Kyron to Eugene on the day he disappeared to turn him over to her and Tony Young to spend the weekend in Medford.
@TRuth. Thank you for laying out the fact that this was not a case of “nobody noticed” in the classroom. An adult group leader noticed. Children noticed, CL repeatedly. I will be very honest, reading what you laid out, even though
teachers have unique pressures & responsibilities during instruction, I have to wonder if Ms P were on something, such as medicinal marijuana. If I were Terri’s defense attorney a primary bit of info to me would be to subpoena Ms P’s medical records from 2008-2010 to check out any prescribed meds she was on. I don’t know how one gets at nonprescribed unless a PI manages to interview her close friends.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html?mobRedir=false
“Carol Moulton said the kids were supposed to report to their classes and be divided into small groups of a few students each. Each group was supposed to tour the science fair with a chaperone.
Afterward, when they returned to their classes for roll call, Kyron wasn’t there, she said. ”
In re-reading this article, my eye fixed on Carol Moulton’s use of the word “Afterward.”
I realize this interview & others with CM in the first days resulted in her observations & words being heavily critized, as she was. She was wrong on one detail, so we thought she was wrong on all details. People questioned why the Moulton’s left to return to Roseburg with the timing they did, as James was arriving, etc.
But on thinking about it, even though Mrs Moulton’s story was secondhand from both Hormans (surely they didn’t contradict each other in front of her on these basic facts), to me she is more limely than not repeating what both Hormans had learned at the school 6/4: that “afterwards” — after the “tour” — “when they returned to their classes for roll call” Kyron was missing, at 10 am.
Just wondering what reasons LE would have (legit ones) to ask Tyler and family to “not” disclose the time that Kyron was seen by them on June 4?
I slightly can understand the SZ description but “why” the timeline?
Kyron’s case is like no other missing child case I have ever seen in regards to LE wanting everything secret. IMO, LE must have given threats of prosecution for every one of them to clam up.
So “why” telling those at the school that morning to mums the word??
that’s such a basic fact — Kyron was put in a group & was not there “afterwards” – one wonders why if true Kaine would not say it himself to information seeking supporters in consideration of their donations & trinket purchases? How could knowledge about the “afterwards ” timing & the school’s wont of supervision jeopardize the investigation? Public info & an accurate timeline could very well advance it. But, if Kaine verified CM’s statement was based on info he in part supplied, it would tend to 1) exhonerate Terri, 2) implicate the school’s negligance. So if CM is right, and Kaine was “a” source of the two then-Hormans, what pony does Kaine have in this race that he would obfuscate or fail to verify?
@blink-
Sorry if I misunderstood, I guess I took “allegedly” the wrong way. Now I take it that was directed at media reports. I thought I had read comments from others in the past that sounded like they thought the family was being deceptive about that weekends plans, but it is difficult to go back that far, and I’d have no idea how far back to look. I wish we could hear from Kyron’s parents and sort out all of the erroneous media reports, which this case seems to be full of.
NP Bumble- I also wanted to make sure my intel was sound.
In this regard, we have no facts, to critical case information yet again.
B
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/20134480/authorities-investigate-body-found-behind-dr-phillips-area-strip-mall
***
The body found in Orlando was a male.
unbelieveable: http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20121031/BREAKING/121039906?tc=obinsite
Did mcso look into what was Kyron’s internet access?
access to an Xbox or other gaming?
I suppose if James gamed online, Kyron did too
Re the weekend visit to Medford. I thought that in one of the very early articles one of the parents had said the weekend visit had been cancelled. IIRC they (TH, KH, Ky) were planning to go out for ice cream – which I felt at the time that it was sort of the consolation prize. I am sorry that I do not have time to search for the reference right now.
Mags says:
November 19, 2012 at 9:27 pm
Re the weekend visit to Medford. I thought that in one of the very early articles one of the parents had said the weekend visit had been cancelled. IIRC they (TH, KH, Ky) were planning to go out for ice cream – which I felt at the time that it was sort of the consolation prize. I am sorry that I do not have time to search for the reference right now.
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I remember the going out for ice cream quite well. We discussed a number of times why they would be planning that if someone was driving Kyron south. I did not see anything in any of the stories about the trip being cancelled, so if anyone can find that, it would be good to share.
Ice cream could also have been a celebration of the science fair or a “good-by treat” from dad for the weekend away. It could also have been a little competitive gesture since we were told Kyron was wanting to live in Medford. As far as I know, none of the reporters ever asked why they were having ice cream.
It’s possible they could have been doing both. Kyron was supposed to be home by 3:30. If they were ready to go, ice cream would not take that long. We know Desiree had to work which means she likely worked a whole day, then possibly even went home before leaving town. If the (whoever) Hormon’s left as soon as school was out, they could possibly be there before Desiree even left home. The normal routine was to meet for dinner – a long wait would not be fun, and a snack before leaving town seems reasonable to me, even if it’s ice cream.
This is another of those details I wish we actually knew for certain.
The biggest trap I fall into, I believe, when trying to figure out what went on and why, is to think like I think – me, myself, I. Almost NOBODY in this whole case thinks like I think, and if I follow what seems logical to me, it never gets me anywhere.