Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
Related Posts
Related Posts:
2,458 Comments
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI
MockingbirdSings says:
RedRose says:
Cindy says:
———————
Here is what I know/don’t know:
Know: Porter marked Kyron absent at some point.
Don’t Know: Did she mark Kyron as having an “excused” absence?
Don’t know: If not, why didn’t the office call a parent to clarify the reason for his absence?
Don’t know: Did Porter testify before the grand jury?
Don’t know: If she did, what was her testimony?
Don’t know: What was Porter’s statement to LE?
Was Porter truly confused about Kyron’s whereabouts? Did she mark him excused out of confusion/assumptions? We think so, I believe, due to what Tanner said. If this is truly the case, then IMO, PPS should be held responsible. I guess my point is that we don’t know what Porter testified. Maybe she told LE/jury that Terri clearly told her that Kyron wouldn’t be in class due to a doctor’s appointment. If I were Kyrons parents (or Terri/Bunch for that matter) I would want an answer to that question. In fact, I would demand that Porter be given a poly to clarify. No doubt Porter feels horrible, but so what? If the school had called Terri or Kaine when they noticed Kyron wasn’t in class, this case would have taken a very different path.
The ONLY reason I’m not onboard 100% with accusing Porter for mishandling this, is due to my “don’t know” list above. Based solely on what Tanner says, I’d say Porter is culpable for being derelict, as MBS says.
@Rose and MBS. Regarding Porter’s accountability.
I read the ESIS PPS teacher’s guide. Keep in mind it is the revision that “corrected” an oversight from 6/4/10 in that calls were NOT made home at 10am in K-6 classrooms/schools if a student was absent…in most elementary schools.
That said, I agree with MBS. 10am was the official time that an “accounting” and marking of attendance had to be done by. MCSO/PPS did not just pull that “official” marking out of a hat. And Porter did not go to her computer at exactly 10am with a room in chaos and say…
“Quiet everyone. I have to mark Kyron missing before I check for him in the bathroom. But rest assured kids that his mom took him to an appointment 2.5 hours ago and as soon as he comes back from it i’ll have the secretary change my ESIS report. And Kurtis, yes you over there wondering where your friend is, be sure to tell your mom I think Kyron is still at his doctor’s appointment” (IMO of course….but does anyone truly believe that a mom who was as on top of Kyron’s “green card” program as TMH was would just take Kyron out of a whole day of important activities without so much as a sign-out in the office)? And without Ms. Porter ever mentioning that this was way beyond TMH’s regular involvement with the school?
Ruth. Teachers must, or a couple years ago anyway, contact the administrator or the attendance office/secretary if they want to change an absence mark. Admins make that call. So that means that admins can PUT IN a mark if the teacher has forgotten it. So can secretaries so that a student who brings in a note within 3-6 days can have and UNexcused absence changed to an EXcused one.
As far as I know Admin would be the only ones knowing the time. Since there is, in fact, a 10am deadline the administrator would have to have access to that in order to evaluate a teacher’s record-keeping. We would get occasional reminders that some admins would be “talking” to us if we were continually “missing” the deadline. (Read…they would take action against the teacher).
OK. So that leads me to why no action was taken against Ms. Porter. I was waiting, Ruth, to see if she would be suspended, or fired the next year. But then I realized that the PPS Counsel (they have an attorney) would be guiding her and others. Also her own union lawyers. Also, knowing that the school was at fault, what would PPS be saying to the public if they fired her.
Here’s another tidbit a friend sent me…..this lawyer also works with the PPS main counsel:
********************
“Have tried to research Ms. Porter and family in the past. I came across something interesting that may explain, if it is verifiable, why Ms. Porter has been untouchable. Now, maybe someone can research this and find out if this is, truly, a link or if it is not. But, there is Michael Porter in Portland who I believe may be Kristina Porter’s brother. Ms. Porter, to my knowledge, is not married. If this Michael Porter is her brother it is fascinating.
Michael Porter is an attorney and he has (does) represented Educational Institutions.
Here is his resume:
PROFESSIONAL ACTIVITIES
Oregon representative for the Employment Law Alliance, the most extensive global labor and employment network, http://www.employmentlawalliance.com
Serves on Advisory Board for Campus Legal Advisor Newsletter,http://www.campuslegaladvisor.com/
Regional Editor and Oregon Author, Employment At –Will, A State-by State Survey, ABA Section of Labor and Employment Law 2011
Co-Chapter Editor 2011 Rev., Employment Actions in Contract; Labor and Employment Law: Private Section: Oregon State Bar Legal Publications
Served as an adjunct professor at Portland State University teaching U.S. and Oregon school law in the continuing administrator licensure program
Reviewer for portions of the Oregon Educator licensing assessments for the Oregon Teachers Standards and Practice Commission
Served on the University of Kansas School of Law Board of Governors
Chancellor for St. Bartholomew’s Episcopal Church
Performed stand-up comedy for the Campaign for Equal Justice’s Laf-Off
Licensed in Oregon and Washington
Member of the National Council of School Attorneys and Oregon Council of School Attorneys
Member of the National Association of College and University Attorneys
PERSONAL ACTIVITIES
Mike enjoys tennis, running, and the performing arts.
Mike’s practice also focuses on serving public school districts, private schools, and higher education institutions on issues involving employment, including tenure issues, student rights and discipline, education programs, and federal and state regulatory compliance. Mike also provides advice and counsel on these and other employment, labor, and education law issues.
Michael Porter | Activities | Meet Our People | Miller Nash
The only Kristina M. Porter I can find in Portland includes these as possible relatives:
Ruth/MBS…I’ll send the links I have to the PPS Counsel and a search I made on Michael Porter, too if you all haven’t discussed these yet.
@Blink….thank you for you explanations. I have a better mental pix now of “running” of those Parallel Investigations. You would think that the entire family, having a LE (or 2) in the house 24/7 would have been under enormous scrutiny. And with TMH at the helm regarding the recruiting of FB friends to get the word out, that the other 3 would have been observed closely regarding their behaviors. Especially since she was telling friends that she would “have to check with the detective” about posting flyers, etc.
Yet the one under the most stress and trying to do the most to find Kyron is put under investigation for hours and hours. The bios said that she “vented” her “failing of the test”. But they don’t say what that “venting” actually was. The words, the sentences, the actual accusations she made. Like the “plotting” of the Mfh and the “written sentences” in the “hateful” emails. All we really know is how the bios represented those allegations.
But with all the focus on the above, who was actually running the “parallel” investigation that didn’t even consider Skyline a crime scene?
Blink, et all. Is this a rallying of the forces in light of the “protective” order? Interesting timing. She has never been this personal in her occasional “stories” about Kyron. Is the “protective” order more to keep her mental history from being divulged than TMH’s?
that is what is referred to as a scrape site- meaning to original content, so I don’t post the link-
I respectfully disagree that she has not been more personal , and to be honest, their are lines in that post that remind me of KH.
B
@Cindy. I don’t recall any bio,
press conference, or media article
stating Ms Porter marked him absent.
http://www.kptv.com/story/20161872/mental-health-records-allowed-in-lawsuit-against-terri-horman
“A protective order issued in the lawsuit filed by Kyron Horman’s mother against Terri Horman said mental health records can be used in the case.”
*****
Stupid question….why does this state “protective order”. Is this lawsuit a “protective order”? What am I missing?
oops, tired.
that’s @ January, above.
@mbs. that’s exactly a major why PPS AND Ms Porter should have been defendants in a civil suit in year one.
Instead PPS spent its litigation dime burying a suing principal/admin in Court & beat her. Couldn’t have done that imo
if bios had had PPS in Court too. Other than monetary Outcomes as part of a settlement: PPS could’ve been ordered to do systemwide safety & procedures retraining in el eds yearly, institute the phone home automation for all schools with yearly audits for a term, and other security measures ie for contractors. as to Ms Porter: ordered to be returned to PPS “probationary” status for a term of 5 years with biyearly audits of attendance procedure compliance.
The bios’ failure to sue PPS/Porter imo reflects a lack of civic concern the the next child. They could’ve used a contingency attorney, or gofundme and I would contribute to that.
Blink replies to Bumble regarding the Medford weekend:
November 19, 2012 at 5:13 pm
(snip)
“. . . I also wanted to make sure my intel was sound.”
Blink,
Now that you have seen/heard DY and TY on video talking about the scheduled June 4th Medford weekend, does this support or conflict with your intel?
Thank you.
Unfortunately, it does not.
B
@TRuth. iirc it was said early on somewher–I have no link & a vague memory–Ms Porter was married & her marriage, the family she’d married into, had in part protected her from consequences within PPS.
I guess I’ll have to go back looking.
Medical records & treatment records come in with relevance shown. And it need not be for the facts but just to show state of mind. Help, Lea; I don’t practice.
Here is how I suspect relevance will be shown & why the records for postpartum depression treatment are critical. It is my bet that Kaine knew, therefore Desiree knows, her PPD in part manifested itself by her articulating to her physician she had impulses to hurt the children, particularly Kyron. 5-6 yo boys are so demanding & needy. With a new baby, her dear older son, and Kaine god help her, I think it would be a strength she could articulate her depression, impulse worries, ask for meds, rather than acting on impulses. Which of us stay home moms with self absorbed husbands hasn’t felt the risk of treating our kids more poorly than they deserve and felt guilty?
If in the medical records Terri’s Dr noted this depressed mother reports she worries about hurting her children, gold nugget for plaintiff. We should worry about that, because it’s a disincentive for PPD women at risk of divorce to be frank & get treatment.
Oh my gosh, Rose, Thank you! You are absolutely right! I just did a google search and continually found statements saying Kyron had been marked absent, however, none of them stated that Ms. Porter marked him absent. Here are a few examples:
Panicked, she ran home and called the school to discover that he had been marked absent for the day.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html
Searchers have declined to provide some details of the investigation, including when school officials marked Kyron Horman absent on June 4.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
The bus driver called back to the school and found out he had been marked absent hours before.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38420266/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/little-boy-lost/
Skyline auction donation by Ms Porter March 2010
https://skylineauction.schoolauction.net/skylineauction/lots/show/401
Rose says:
November 23, 2012 at 7:24 pm
“@Cindy. I don’t recall any bio,
press conference, or media article
stating Ms Porter marked him absent.”
Thanks, Rose, for the reminder on this. Meant to comment earlier that the earliest “mentions” of absent/roll call that I recall were both dated June 5 2010:
*
snip from article
published June 5 2010 at 11:21pm:
“Carol Moulton said the kids were supposed to report to their classes and be divided into small groups of a few students each. Each group was supposed to tour the science fair with a chaperone. Afterward, when they returned to their classes for roll call, Kyron wasn’t there, she said.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html
*
snip from TH emails dated June 5 2010
from KATU article published August 9 2010 at 10:14pm:
“Kids saw him after I left. Teacher put him as absent at 10am. Someplace between 9-10 is when we think it happened.”
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html
____
Both the purported emails written by TH and CarolM’s interview occurred
on June 5 2010. In what order, at what times I’m not sure.
CM, though, was still in Roseburg (iirc).
Per KH, he and TH went together to the school June 4 upon realizing Kyron was not on the bus and the bus driver calling the school.
So . . . that means they were likely there for some time, although my recollection was that a 9-1-1 call was also placed (at some time, by someone) directing LE to the Horman home and KH met with LE at the home, so TH may have stayed behind/longer at the school.
So . . . it’s likely, imo, that both TH and KH or just TH spoke in person with MsP and also went to check out Kyron’s classroom.
imo, it’s possible TH and KH or just TH made visual contact of Kyron’s coat and backpack still in his room . . .
@TRuth. As far as I can tell from veromi, mylife etal, she is 38 yo single,
imo therefore current Skyline principal will continue pps posture to support her fully.
If this is she, question is what did she do before becoming a probationary teacher at approx age 35?
A 55 yo Michael J Porter in Beaverton is interesting.
Ex Intel mgr. Fits the profile of preretirement departure
many ex-emloyees complain of.
Rose says:
November 23, 2012 at 7:24 pm
@Cindy. I don’t recall any bio,
press conference, or media article
stating Ms Porter marked him absent.
——————–
Here are 2 media reports that say Kyron was marked absent although they don’t necessarily say he was marked at 10:00 am.
-snip
10 a.m. Classes begin.
At some point, Kyron’s homeroom teacher, Kristina Porter, reports him absent.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
——————————————–
-snip
Terri Horman said around 8:45 in the morning, the last time she saw her stepson Kyron, he was walking down this hallway in his school on his way to his second grade classroom.
It’s unclear exactly who, if anyone, saw him after that point, or where, but Ms. Porter started class as usual, reading group, then recess, then lunch. At some point in the day, Kyron was marked absent. At 3:00 PM, it was time for the school buses to line up. Kids tired from a full day filed on board and plopped down in their seats, all but one.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38420266/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/little-boy-lost/#.ULBA7aXUBFI
@MBS, Agree that the teacher was negligent. If it comes out that TH was involved, then I think she was manipulated into believing something that was not, and I would not necessarily blame someone for that. Kind of like the social worker for the Powell children. She was maybe naive and poorly trained, but it never occurred to her the evil she was up against.
If, however, a SZ removed Kyron, then the teacher was his last line of defense, and she failed miserably. For her to continue to teach says to me that she is either resolved that she did nothing wrong, or she herself does not have feelings of guilt and remorse.
The phone records also would have established if someone tried to contact any of Kyron’s parents regarding his absence. If, for example, someone tried to contact a parent at 10:30 am, it would prove that Kyron had been marked absent and the parents were either contacted, or unable to be contacted. Likewise, if no calls went out to the parents, then either Kyron was not marked absent, or the office did not follow through.
If I were to piece together the way the teacher’s defense has been portrayed, I think it was that she did not mark Kyron absent because she thought he popped out with TH to attend a doctor’s appointment. She disregarded his coat and backpack because she though he would return for the talent show. When he did not return she assumed the appointment either took longer than expected, or Kyron went home. Tanner’s account was dismissed because it did not fit with this defense, IMO.
The priority for recording $chool ab$ence$ $hould not be funding. The priority should be safety. Absences should be recorded, and available to parents in real time. Kyron’s Law does not address timely parental notification of a child’s absence. Kyron’s Law addresses camera in school. Maybe that says something about what really happened.
@ Rose – Well, in July, 2011, we had this same attendance discussion going on. I found my response to one of your posts. I won’t repost that, but it seems each time we open this discussion there’s a slightly different question or point of view, which is a good thing.
You are correct as far as I know that no one has ever directly said “Ms. Porter marked him absent” except for an occasional reference like this one below which actually has to be true as written. Whether Ms. Porter did the actual computer stroke that marked Kyron absent or not, sooner or later she was the one who would have had to report his absence. The secretary would not have known.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
“At some point, Kyron’s homeroom teacher, Kristina Porter, reports him absent.”
Here, IMO, are the possibilities:
1 – Ms. Porter took attendance at 10 AM and officially marked Kyron absent. (Since that appears to have been the plan for the entire school for the day, if she did this, then LE and the school district superintendent being so secretive about when he was marked absent makes no sense.)
2 – Ms. Porter thought Kyron was still there and did not mark him absent. At some point she realized he was gone and should still have been able to access eSIS and mark him absent or could have notified the secretary who could have changed him from present to absent at any time for her.
side note: No matter how inexperienced LE was in this sort of investigation, I can feel their hearts sink when they find out how long he has been missing.
3 – No one has said, as far as I know, that Ms. Porter was still in the building when the Horman’s got to the school in the afternoon. It was a Friday, a long day, and it was past the time she would have been required to stay. (If she was still there, you’d think in at least one interview, Kaine would have said he spoke to her.) It is also possible that she didn’t mark him absent right at ten and that she did think he was in the bathroom or getting a drink. Once she realized he was not there, she may have made a mental note to change that on the computer, but may have been out of her room or too busy to stop right away and make the change If she wasn’t concerned enough to check on where he was (if she thought he left with Terri), then she may not have felt any urgency to instantly stop and change eSIS. Perhaps she forgot later and had left the building so that the secretary had to reach her by phone to find out what she knew. Obviously, the secretary was still at school and could have changed the attendance record as they were talking. The secretary’s question would have been whether he was absent ½ day or the whole day. (He did not qualify for ½ day which would be 51% of the day.)
About #3 – If Ms. Porter was still in her classroom, the secretary would have called her room first before looking up Kyron’s attendance because Kaine and Terri were saying he had been at school. Ms. Porter and Terri would have had some sort of exchange immediately about what Ms. Porter thought or didn’t think, and Kaine almost certainly would have been aware of that conversation. During that period of time, the secretary called Desiree and she called Terri. I have never heard anyone say Ms. Porter said this or that, so, IMO, she was most likely not there.
4 – If Ms. Porter actually thought Terri told her about a doctor’s appointment and was verbally telling her it would be an excused absence, she was obligated by district policy to make a written note of that in her attendance log and to actually mark his absence as excused. Of course, she could have written that after she found out he was missing, and the “excused” (IF marked that way) could have been done by her or by the secretary after he was missing also. THAT is another reason it would have been worth making the school a crime scene and instantly freezing all written and computer records.
So – for me, it doesn’t matter much exactly when Ms. Porter got the attendance recorded, or how, since no one was going to call home anyway if Ms. Porter didn’t do it or ask that it be done. It was not the school’s practice to call about absences. It matters somewhat whether she reported it during the day or forgot about it and went home, and it matters a lot whether she reported an “absence” or an “excused absence” before she found out he was missing. We may never know.
Blink and all – I feel I must say that I know I have been very harsh toward Ms. Porter in recent posts. That isn’t my usual approach, and I feel sad about it. I hope someday we find out some professionally redeeming information that changes my perspective. I do not want to cause her any more grief, but I do find it difficult to deal with the lack of acknowledgement and response from the school concerning their responsibilities.
erose says:
November 23, 2012 at 10:28 pm
If I were to piece together the way the teacher’s defense has been portrayed, I think it was that she did not mark Kyron absent because she thought he popped out with TH to attend a doctor’s appointment.
———————–
If Kyron was not there in the building, he was absent. There is no other legal way to interpret that.
————————————–
Ode says:
November 23, 2012 at 7:25 pm
http://www.kptv.com/story/20161872/mental-health-records-allowed-in-lawsuit-against-terri-horman
“A protective order issued in the lawsuit filed by Kyron Horman’s mother against Terri Horman said mental health records can be used in the case.”
*****
Stupid question….why does this state “protective order”. Is this lawsuit a “protective order”? What am I missing?
———————
No “stupid” questions.
The protective order was to protect the rights of Terri, it seems. Remember they asked for the civil case to be delayed because of the ongoing criminal investigation, but the judge seems to think he can handle protecting her rights in a reasonable manner one decision at a time.
MockingbirdSings,
From your professional knowledge, who would the school bus driver have possibly first made phone contact with at the school and who would have supplied the information that Kyron was gone most of the day?
for reference . . . video clip shown on Nancy Grace February 4 2011:
HORMAN: “The bus driver looked at us and told us that he wasn`t on the bus today. So we figured, well, he must still be waiting for us at the school, so she called the school on her cell phone, and that`s when we found out he hadn`t been there all day.”
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1102/04/ng.02.html
Thanks in advance.
Rose says:
November 23, 2012 at 7:26 pm
oops, tired.
that’s @ January, above.
Me too. I was calling you Ruth in my last post. My MIL’s name! Got family on my mind (and in my house). Sorry.
I do think all, in a way, that the deflecting of the Porter responsibility is rather moot now. Can PPS be named after 2 years have passed in terms of a suit? And even someone sued wouldn’t the “losing” of the Skyline
records prevent any real discovery now?
@ Blink. The “personal” story is also on DY’s GoFundMe site. I went to it after following a link to that chat site. Didn’t look at the site itself, just followed a link sent to me. Is a “scrap site” some kind of depository? What is your opinion of the GoFundMe site that her sister, Kelly, started in order to garner funds for Rosenthal’s fees? They are up to 12,000 or so now. And, btw, don’t tort lawyers do pro bono in suit cases?
vw says:
November 23, 2012 at 6:59 pm
@Rose and MBS. Regarding Porter’s accountability.
I read the ESIS PPS teacher’s guide. Keep in mind it is the revision that “corrected” an oversight from 6/4/10 in that calls were NOT made home at 10am in K-6 classrooms/schools if a student was absent…in most elementary schools.
—————————–
Skyline was K-8, but said they didn’t have a problem. I think what changed was that schools no longer had a choice.
I thought teachers in lower grades could make changes until the end of their day and had to rely on the secretary after that. Not sure.
It would be interesting to know where the attendance records (logs and actual notes from parents) were kept at Skyline which is such a small school. My guess would be with the teacher, but schools I have been in have changed something about attendance and records and who did what every single year, just like the district would change policies and manuals and handbooks as though someone was afraid they wouldn’t look busy if they didn’t create some change no matter how minor or how much paper it took. At least the change to better parent notification was a positive step.
Speaking of positive steps – I wonder how the cameras which were installed at Skyline are doing – still working, monitored how?
Rose says:
November 23, 2012 at 8:18 pm
Skyline auction donation by Ms Porter March 2010
https://skylineauction.schoolauction.net/skylineauction/lots/show/401
And i’d bet money (well, 5 bucks) that that starting bid for taking 3 kids to the zoo (100.00) turned into at least 300.00.The school foundation that sponsored that auction (and other fundraisers) raised enough money to hire a teacher the next year after Kyron disappeared, IIRC. And that’s after having to give 25% of foundation monies to PPS to give to other less fortunate schools. Kyron went to a very well-heeled elementary school. One in which if you child was not deemed TAG there was extreme competition to get them there. Hence the drive for it to become a rare IB-accredited school. (Read…a “private” public school).
See “supply list” K & 1st grade. Kyron’s teacher is “Miss Porter.”
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OQU8O8VXtxUJ:www.pps.k12.or.us/schools/skyline/+kristina+porter+11536+portland&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Conflicting info (as usual) sigh :\
10 a.m. Classes begin.
At some point, Kyron’s homeroom teacher, Kristina Porter, reports him absent.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
A statement by Kristina Porter, Kyron’s teacher, was read at Wednesday’s briefing by Ben Keefer, the principal of Skyline Elementary School.
“The students in Kyron’s class miss him terribly, and we are all wishing for his safe return,” said Porter. “It has been gratifying to see how caring and supportive the children have been with each other throughout this ordeal.”
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/10/oregon.missing.boy/index.html
Shelby said that Porter saw Kyron in her classroom with his stepmom before 8:45 a.m. and another instructor reported seeing him in another classroom at some point.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html
@Rose, Perhaps what you were referencing as Porter’s family member. Veromi has her related to a Michael Howard Porter
Michael Porter is a partner in the employment law and labor relations and education law practice groups. Since 2000, Mike has worked with public and private employers in all areas of labor and employment law. He regularly defends wage-and-hour class-actions, employment discrimination claims, and constitutional claims asserted against public entities. Mike represents employers dealing with traditional labor issues, ranging from negotiating with unions, arbitrating grievances, and representing employers in matters involving the National Labor Relations Act and the Oregon Public Employee Collective Bargaining Act. Mike’s practice also focuses on serving public school districts, private schools, and higher education institutions on issues involving employment, including tenure issues, student rights and discipline, education programs, and federal and state regulatory compliance. Mike also provides advice and counsel on these and other employment, labor, and education law issues.
http://www.millernash.com/michael-porter/
http://m.washingtonpost.com/national/utah-kidnap-victim-elizabeth-smart-preparing-memoir-of-her-nine-month-ordeal-and-recovery/2012/11/23/fabf0aae-35a0-11e2-92f0-496af208bf23_story.html
I did not follow tbis story & was surprised to read police & FBI ignored a 9 yo eyewitness who identified a traveling handyman. So I guess it happens that theory trumps child eyewitnesses.
“Their book chronicled the police and FBI investigation that initially ignored the eyewitness account of Elizabeth Smart’s 9-year-old sister, who was able to identify the abductor as a handyman who had worked at the family’s home.”
Veromi lists Warren, OR (pop approx 3000) as one of three where Kristina M Porter has lived. Portland and Monmouth are the other two. Her family seems to have resided in this small community at least one generation, and I believe they came from an even smaller town in WA, on the coast named Bay Center (pop in 2000 was 174). Monmouth is the home of Western Oregon University.
I only bring this up because of the locations of Warren (the route), and Bay Center (the coast) and of course the possibility has entered my mind that the person that took Kyron could have been an opportunist connected to his teacher, instead of his parents. I also want to add that KP grew up in a small, small town, where everybody knows everybody and this could have contributed to someone having a trusting nature, fwiw.
snip>
Warren is an unincorporated community in Columbia County, Oregon, United States located on U.S. Route 30 north of Scappoose and south of St. Helens on Scappoose Bay of the Columbia River.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren,_Oregon
I would think that that even though the school deleted the records for that day, they would still be retrievable. Also, the school wasted no time deleting the files and I find that very odd. I still feel something is up with that school.
@cd. thanks for quotes “at some point” he was reported/marked absent.
I still go with vw’s reasoning that did not occur during the school day. If it occurred it was after
the school realized the Teri hadn’t taken him out informally that evening.
I have seen with the Petreaus players news organizarions from abc to cbs to cnn to msnbc to newspapers & wire services just copy each others’ reporting often copying language verbatim, or key phrases, I assume with permission.
I believe that happen in this report where for example msnbc uses OLive’s phrasing. And I have learned with OLive goodness knows what the source is and much less if the content is accurate.
@Mbs
Thanks for the reminder, you are right, it was never said that attendance records were missing, in fact the articles say that “according to attendance records”, Kyron was marked absent, so the attendance records were there from the get go. (No idea then, why it was so “unclear” when he was marked absent in the beginning?) I think I was just thinking it must be the attendance records are part of what was missing because they (LE) were trying to go back and see just who marked Kyron absent and when, my mistake.
LE says this:
During the investigation of the other potential persons of interest, the team realized that some evidence — namely phone records and computer log-on information from Skyline School the day Kyron went missing — were not kept by the school district as the sheriff’s office didn’t request the preservation of those records.
Staton and Gates said they did obtain other information from the school via a search warrant submitted to Superintendent Carole Smith, but could not comment on the school phone records or computer data being preserved.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/06/kyron_horman_task_force_to_dis.html
************
So, here’s a question for all of you. Why would LE need to see “computer log-on information”, if it was nothing to do with who marked Kyron absent or when?
Computer log-on information would show what to an investigator? That someone was actually there who said they weren’t? (at such and such time, or at all?) Is there something else this could show them?
Blink,
Was MsP still at the school when TH and KH arrived – - – and if not, was she quickly summoned back?
Thank you, as always.
No independent confirmation, but I have been told she had left, and returned upon request of MCSO.
B
wpg says:
November 24, 2012 at 12:47 am
MockingbirdSings,
From your professional knowledge, who would the school bus driver have possibly first made phone contact with at the school and who would have supplied the information that Kyron was gone most of the day?
—————————-
In a school that small, the school secretary would have answered the phone. She would also be the one who entered attendance in addition to teachers. (A few elementary schools have 2 secretaries but they are much larger – I can’t imagine Skyline spending their limited funds that way.) Keefer probably knew how to access the student attendance files even if he wasn’t the one designated to make changes, but I have not seen anything that makes me certain Keefer was still there – he may have been. .
She probably worked from 7:30 AM to 4 PM. In addition to the 911 call, she would also have called Keefer if he was not there, or his immediate supervisor, who would have continued on to inform the superintendent’s office and the district spokesperson. Some of the teachers were most likely still working in the building.
T. Ruth says:
November 24, 2012 at 12:21 pm
So, here’s a question for all of you. Why would LE need to see “computer log-on information”, if it was nothing to do with who marked Kyron absent or when?
Computer log-on information would show what to an investigator? That someone was actually there who said they weren’t? (at such and such time, or at all?) Is there something else this could show them?
————————–
@ T.Ruth – This is a very good question. I said what I could think of at
MockingbirdSings says:
November 23, 2012 at 6:42 pm
I can’t see how a log-on could show who was there or not unless you could prove it was that person who logged on. Some computers may not be password protected. People sometimes try to hide their passwords in their gradebook or desk in case they forget – you just don’t know. Students have access to some computers also. I sometimes let students at the high school do research or college searches (where I could see the screen), but they couldn’t log on to the district website, of course. Maybe they are asking about logging on to the district website rather than just who used a computer?
Maybe we are trying too hard – maybe it’s just standard information they would always ask for.
another thought re
“Maybe we are trying too hard – maybe it’s just standard information they would always ask for.’
Maybe think of it another way – since they didn’t ask for this information until later, what could they have found out that prompted them to go back and ask for it – or did one of the other agencies finally say, “Hey, guys, you should have asked for . . .”
Assuming Kyron was treated equally as every other
Child
I still can not understand the bathroom situation
Did everyone just go anytime with out telling the teacher
Or not get in a class pic
How would anyone know if a child went to the bathroom or where they went
Or with who
And was this bathroom for the children only
Another for the public
Another for staff
How many bathrooms are there
@erose. that’s what I remembered.
litigator & school district outside attorney
and probably the outside teachers union atty too.
What Admin in PPS was gonna mess with her
since tenure had vested?
@vw. A tort attorney would not do pro bono. he would do it contingency fee with a likely multimillion payout here. Desiree’s fundraising is likely for upfront bread & butter expenditures like process servers, mailings, depo court reporters, her travel expenses in Portland (hotel), etc.
To defend Wagner/Houze do not need to put on their best criminal defense & theory of the abduction.
They can use other avenues to rebut Rosenthal & other less critical case theories,
just enough so she can’t prove all the elements of the statute.
Which also makes me wonder, this seems Kaine’s cause of action, not Desiree’s.
Teri actually tried to help Desiree take physical custody.
If Terri did it, it seems it was Kaine’s custody interfered with.
I am uncomfortable with the term “offsetting” legal expenses. Does that not imply re-imbursement?
Furthermore, legal expenses for a tort action ARE NOT tax deductible by any party, including the donor.
B
Mrs Porter finished her 3 year of teaching in 2010.
She began teaching in fall 2007. She likely then graduated college in 2007.
She would have begun college in 2003 if not parttime.
She is approx 38 in 2012. She began her BA at 29?
(not cking my math) What did she do before that. I too have wondered if SZ was
associated with her past, or now I guess singles life or dating life.
Maybe someone was jealous in her life; maybe she’d dumped someone. What did
investigators check out? I bet the litigator Porter was at her side for every interview.
And he probably wrote cautionary letters to pps, mcso, etc.
http://www.gofundme.com/kyronhorman
gifts are restricted to “legal expenses”
use. Donation overage if any will go to the
family members of missing kids
disclaimer- I am not advocating donations to anyone or any organization without an IRS registration.
B
@Blink. Am not privy to retainer agreement between Rosenthal & Kyron’s Mother, therefore rely only on gofundme’s representation these ladies’ collection is for “legal expenses.” I am of the opinion this tort suit is a contingency percentage of jury award, which if successful fully
compensates plaintiff’s attorney, but we cannot verify that without retainer agreement letter.
I am of the opinion Ms’s Young & Ramirez would not engage in suit fundraising for the purpose of legal expenses without running it by her attorney, obtaining tacit approval.
Personally, I thought (without Wagner) whatever the facts there would be a judgement, huge award, & richer retiree attorney down the pike.
I am not sure if you are asking me a question Rose, but I agree that without disclosure of a retainer agreement, there is no way to know the circumstances.
It is my personal opinion that usage of the word “offset” for legal expenses means anything not covered in the contingency as in out of pocket direct reimbursement- which as we know is separate from a trust account if that agreement is indeed contingency upon award, which I believe this is.
So, in effect, whatever money is raised would go to lessen the burden of the expenses to the judgement in the event it is a contingency matter. Ms. Young is of limited means, I have to believe that is the case here.
B
I think the school info was asked for just because mcso contracted out electronic analysis ( wasnt it to a Calif expert?) and this was a mere piece of the electronics pie–thoroughness–justifying IT consultant ‘s existence, .
Better they should’ve gone after the goal of id’ing any unidentified male seen by any witness with Kyron.
I mean, how can an intelligent, motivated Dad settle for this investigation.
PS for Thanksgiving:
so tell us you’ve not been alien beamed up, Beejay….
At our primary school there is a bathroom for the students in each classroom and other bathrooms for the public in the hall. I don’t know if the staff has their own. Does anyone know if that was the case at Skyline? I would love to find out if Kyron was thought to be in a bathroom in his own classroom or out in the hall somewhere.
Does anyone know when Gregg McCullough was granted custody of his son Q?
By stipulation order in 2004. He maintains it.
B
So, thinking of the log in times that can be retrieved— maybe that could be sensitive info for when Esis would have been opened / altered— and from where. I could alter mine from any computer I logged in to. Only attendance secretary & principal could view my attendance taking. We were strongly warned not to allow students or parent helpers to enter data in Esis & passwords were a forced change at semester. But that wasn’t PPS. We were to lock our screen even stepping away from our desk. BTW— Miller Nash has a history w PPS— representation, etc. for decades back to the Miller Anderson Nash Yerke & Weiner era.
This is absolutely off the wall, but since we are looking at everyone and everything (and I don’t agree at all, it’s just a thought that popped in my mind when I read Rose’s post). What if MsP – a single lady – might have wanted a small child of her very own to love and care for? Maybe really favored one of her small students, maybe had someone help her make her deepest wish – to have a child of her own – come true?
I know; I know. It’s way out there. Please disregard, no offense intended to anyone.
Well, Kyron is also way out there somewhere and needs to find his way home.
@Rose says: November 24, 2012 at 3:57 pm
Mrs Porter finished her 3 year of teaching in 2010.
She began teaching in fall 2007. She likely then graduated college in 2007. She would have begun college in 2003 if not parttime.
She is approx 38 in 2012. She began her BA at 29? (not cking my math) What did she do before that. I too have wondered if SZ was
associated with her past, or now I guess singles life or dating life.
Maybe someone was jealous in her life; maybe she’d dumped someone. What did
investigators check out?
Rose says:
November 24, 2012 at 3:49 pm
@vw. A tort attorney would not do pro bono. he would do it contingency fee with a likely multimillion payout here. Desiree’s fundraising is likely for upfront bread & butter expenditures like process servers, mailings, depo court reporters, her travel expenses in Portland (hotel), etc.
———-
I have a relative that has a lawyer working on a tort litigation and that person has not been ask to pay any money for legal filings or experts or anything else.
I think the gofundme money being raised is because Rosenthal wants to be prepared if there is a counter suit or if some reason Desiree/Rosenthal do not prevail and have to pay TH’s legal expenses.
Maybe Rosenthal is not all that positive about the outcome of Desiree’s legal suit but he is going to try to help her get what information she can even if she does not get a legal remedy.
or
The money could also be because even If Desiree and Rosenthal did win the civil action although Rosenthal could get as much a 30% or 40% percent of the monetary proceeds he probably would never receive anything because TH would just file bankruptcy.
The whole thing seems to me to be a very expensive way to get Terri to talk to Desiree. To bad they spent so much time demonizing TH at the beginning of the investigation and now they have to get her in court in order for her to impart any information to them. Which as we have seen with Dede may not produce anything useful toward finding out what happened to Kyron anyway.
all IMO
http://www.gofundme.com/kyronhorman
gifts are restricted to “legal expenses”
use. Donation overage if any will go to the
family members of missing kids
disclaimer- I am not advocating donations to anyone or any organization without an IRS registration.
B
————
IMO If Desiree does not win her lawsuit and has to pay Terri’s legal expenses then will the money collected by the gofundme site then go to TH to pay legal fees incurred defending herself in the in the lawsuit. I have seen donation sites for a lot of things but you really need to think about exactly where your well intended donation is going to end up if you are supporting a lawsuit that could go either way.
Personally I think Rosenthal should weigh in, and the fact that he has not acknowledged brings me pause.
To your point, you are 100% right, and none of it is tax deductible- so the designation as a donation is incorrect, imo- it should be classified as a gift.
B
Kat says:
November 25, 2012 at 12:17 am
So, thinking of the log in times that can be retrieved— maybe that could be sensitive info for when Esis would have been opened / altered— and from where. I could alter mine from any computer I logged in to. Only attendance secretary & principal could view my attendance taking. We were strongly warned not to allow students or parent helpers to enter data in Esis & passwords were a forced change at semester. But that wasn’t PPS. We were to lock our screen even stepping away from our desk. BTW— Miller Nash has a history w PPS— representation, etc. for decades back to the Miller Anderson Nash Yerke & Weiner era.
———————————
@Kat – I think PPS policies were the same, but that doesn’t mean everyone followed them, of course. In my long career in both Beaverton and PPS, the weak link has always been the principal – and I think it was true of Skyline. If fact, I have been known to say quite often that the district needed two superintendents and the buildings needed 2 leaders – just give them half the salaries each and they would be fine. One needed to be in charge of academics, testing, school programs, and planning for the future and the other in charge of procedures, technology, attendance, transportation, security, etc. Every time a new principal would come in ready to improve or enhance what the school was doing, little things like whether the teachers were keeping accurate attendance would stay at the bottom of the list. Yet I had probation officers, support programs, and foster parent supervisors in addition to families and sometimes courts and expulsion hearings wanting correct data. It was really annoying, not to mention unhelpful. The most help I ever got from principals was a memo to teachers to do a better job.
With my attitude I should have been an administrator, but I wouldn’t have lasted long. It was better not to be one and simply have the ability to quietly do what you needed to in order to get the job done without dealing with employee contract issues.
I remember the law firm quite well. The first few years an attorney (who was wonderful) actually had office hours at the central office and a really helpful secretary. She would take my questions and ask him and she or he would call me back. Then one year the office was pretty much gone as a cost cutting measure, and the attorney(s) strictly worked on whatever task they were contracted to do. If permanent records were subpoenaed, you could still send or deliver the file, they would decide what the court could have, copy that and certify the copy, then get it back to you so you usually didn’t have to go to court with the records. That was about it.
Here’s my point though – if they reinstated the PPS attorney’s office to act more like a department (although independent) of the school district again after I left, then I’m happy for them. If not, (or maybe either way) the Superintendent or the Board (or both, IDK) would need to have formally retained an attorney to advise them regarding the Skyline/Kyron case. Attorneys don’t work for free in a case like this and they don’t pop in and consult with the superintendent and principal or anyone else on an ongoing basis without some agreement.
I know what I described seems like a small difference, but there really was a functional difference to me as an employee in how I could relate to the attorney. Also, I know of one instance when the district hired a different firm which specialized in something they were dealing with, so I assume being connected regularly to a particular firm isn’t an exclusive deal.
I would like to know (1) if PPS hired an attorney to give them one-time or ongoing advice about this case, and (2) if so, who they hired and when. PPS is a public body spending public funds – it doesn’t seem like whether they retained an attorney or not should be confidential information even if there were some reason to keep details confidential. If they did, it’s probably in the budget or minutes of some meeting somewhere.