Kyron Horman Missing: New Years Eve Settlement Ends Horman Marriage
Portland, OR- In a surprise court hearing, Judge Henry Kantor signed off on the agreement between Kaine Horman and Terri Moulton Horman to end their marriage this afternoon.
Details of the agreement have not been released publicly, but according to KGW, a financial settlement to include child support and a lump payment to Terri Horman has been reached.
In what can only be described as a bitter family court feud- the divorce matter was last in court on December 16th to decide if the Horman landscaper, Rodolfo Sanchez Estrada -who alleges Terri Horman tried to hire him to murder Kaine Horman at a lunch meeting – would testify.
Judge Kantor has not yet filed an order from that hearing but Attorneys for Terri Horman were granted a continuance from the pending temporary custody motion scheduled for December 19th and 20th.
BOC Associate Editor Tarin Kenley contributed to this report.
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Kaine knew a male took Kyron less than a month after the abduction:
http://www.katu.com/news/local/98673499.html?mobile=y
One of the things you never divulged BOC are any demographics re le affaire de coeur.
So did she has perhaps a jealous husband or boyfriend.
Gym denizen and hoi pollai,
or Intel nerd?
Nerd and to my knowledge, nothing on that bone. That said- I make that assumption.
B
@kewl:
James turned 18, in January of 2012.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/08/terri_horman_deposition_docume.html
“Kantor’s ruling allowed Rosenthal to take a deposition of Horman’s biological son, James Moulton, on Thursday, before his planned military service late this month.”
(snipped)
*****************
This article was written on August 21, 2012. The ruling referred to took place the week before, I believe the Thursday referenced above, referred to James’ deposition as being already taken the previous Thursday or perhaps to be taken August 27, (Max was not clear), but the reference to his military service “late this month” would have been the following week or the Mon. after that since it was the end of the month.
So I’m just trying to get the timing right here, you are saying Kaine contacted James sometime in January 2012 after his 18th birthday (the 26th)
(http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/g/i/f/Charles-A-Giffin/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0342.html)
and between that time and August 31, he was secretly meeting with him and offering him money?
As James had yet to testify in either civil suit, Desiree’s civil case or the divorce, would that be considered bribing a witness?
I’m just trying to figure out, if in fact this happened, then what was KH’s motive for contacting him in the first place? I know Mr. Horman said very early on in one of his interviews he’d like to “talk to James”, but IIRC said he was not “allowed to”. I always wondered why he wanted to speak with James.
Will this case be forever confusing?
@TKG. Why can’t you just send a private post to Blink with all yr unsubstantiated
and all your substantiated info, and your sources. She can validate what is possible
to validate.
imo a sit down interview with Terri, Houze present, with Blink is overdue. And get everything on the table like DDS, IF that ol new Grand Jury 2 has been dismissed.
I think that Houze would object to TH doing any interview and I cannot contact TH directly, only through counsel. I wish I thought TH agreeing to an interview was in her best interests- legally, I don’t.
B
@Malty. If he “liked” James and missed him, what about calls and visits between Feb 2010 and June 1, 2010?
I’ve not read of his outreach over 4 months after arriving home and finding James MIA.
Were we ever privy to this order?
snip>
The suit will proceed today with a deposition by Rosenthal of Terri Horman’s biological son, James Moulton, an 18-year-old who is set to begin military service later this month. Kantor said he would allow some “protections” for Moulton in the deposition, but declined to specify what they are until he writes an order he said will be filed late Wednesday.
http://www.columbian.com/news/2012/aug/15/judge-refuses-to-delay-lawsuit-filed-by-kyron-horm/
The Multnomah County sheriff’s office said it would not comment on Kaine Horman’s allegation about a third party.
In his responses to questions Friday, Kaine Horman did not identify a third party.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/98673499.html?mobile=y
” T. Ruth says:
August 12, 2015 at 8:03 pm
@kewl:
James turned 18, in January of 2012.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/08/terri_horman_deposition_docume.html
“Kantor’s ruling allowed Rosenthal to take a deposition of Horman’s biological son, James Moulton, on Thursday, before his planned military service late this month.”
(snipped)
http://blinkoncrime.com/2013/12/31/kyron-horman-missing-new-years-eve-settlement-ends-horman-marriage/#comments
——
Chronologically, when Kaine reached out, Desiree’s suit had been filed. That’ll teach separated moms to change their kids’ cell numbers so estranged not-Dads can’t be sneaky. You know what other game was on in the summer of 2012? Not-Mommy, his apparent airport transportation ferry, moved into Sheltered Nook with her 3 readymade ladies, replete with matching shoulder tats and matching pink (likely the eldest, about James’ age, was visiting in the summer). Lots of attention from 4 females, two attractive and near his age, for a young man who’d likely been functionally socially isolated from girls as a consequence of home schooling for the preceding year. If the Hormans influenced his enlisting in June or July rather than going on to community college like vocational cook Quinn, that is tragic. Who knows, maybe his visits were Kristin’s reunification idea, not Rackner’s nor Elden’s.
@Malty. Imo there’s enough social history in the press for me to vote with all bad. Imo if he had an affair with an Intel nerd, it was to effect his Jan 2010 promotion or to gather personally helpful company information. He exploitatively successively moved in 3 women with 7 (or so) year olds who were down on their luck and needed a roof over their heads and abandoned 2 ruthlessly when it suited him. I think con is too mild a word.
After Kristian’s history of molesting his visiting step-teen, the child of a moved-out Mom, excusing himself with it happened to him too, who kniws what all was possible with surreptitious invitations to Kristian’s brother’s home to a similarly situated teen which was hidden from his mother? Sounds like potential for Kristian-like behavior was there imo.
@cd. I believe each online “movement” the Soldier Admin starts up
(like car washes, search & go fundme ads, and so on) are directed by her offstage
General, and the NG campaign, like the resurrection of the “give us info” petition,
were “approved” if not suggested by the General. the
info petition is probably a precusor to the Sept search most
likely to publically pressure mcso to cooperate with DY. I’m wondering
what motive DY has to want a NG update? publicity for her yearly search?
and why Grace?
@Truth do you remember that interview where Kaine said he was not allowed to talk to James until he was 18
I remember but not when it was but I think it was after he rushed Terri out of his house and some one ask him about James I doesn’t matter but I wonder why Kaine said that There was no court order I heard of at the time
All the stuff with Kaine and Terri must have had James trying to get his life and schooling on base. Completely mixed up and he must have been upset about Kyron also And missed Kiara I kind of feel for a teen just trying to get along with everyone
But wanting his independence
Mother and son are a complicated relationship Between I love you and I love you are some harsh words
Some times But everyone understands that love lasts forever My dear son and I fought over Nixon as president
For yrs. we never talk about Nixon Anymore I still have his Nixon button he wore and smile every time I see it
Now it no longer matters to me
I’ve discovered color yearbooks,
kids named, online
for 2010-11 and 2011-12.
probably here before.
@Rose remember “when she was good she was very very good and when she was bad she was horrid”
LOL
I think KH is very selfish and self centered But has some good points however his woman seem to let him be selfish
For some reason. It must be his good points
Dy and her dad don’t care for him but don’t stand up and ask some questions they should Like where was he
June 2010 Instead blame Terri They know how controlling he is but never say what were you up to
Durning the days before Kyron went missing Why didn’t he handle his sons problems at school. And most of all go to the SF with his son Make those drives to see mommy in Medford
Why didn’t Terri say he is your son. You take care of it
Because he must have good points I think
And those world soldiers talk of sitting on LE’s steps until they get some info. Why just talk. Go do it
Where is Kyron Who is the unknown man. Will Kiara have a safe good childhood
These are the questions I care about and should say we all care about.
Around 11:50 in this interview KH alludes to wanting to protect “all three children involved with this event that’s happened”.
??? Event? What event? Anyway, then he’s asked if he has spoken with James. (You can hear the anger/frustration in his voice as he answers.) “I’m not allowed to speak to James. Her attorneys are preventing us from having contact, although I know he wants contact, as do I, but we’re not being allowed to talk to each other.”
Reporter: Does he talk to Terri?
KH: “Ya know, I don’t know. As far as I know, I believe he’s living with Terri right now, but I can’t confirm that and I have no information that would lead me to believe otherwise. I was under the impression that he was staying with his Dad for the summer, and if the normal set of activities occurred, he would stay with his Dad until school starts and then go back with Terri. So I’m assuming right now, he’s with Terri, but I honestly don’t know”
http://www.katu.com/news/local/108250924.html?tab=video&c=y
Couple of questions, if KH knows James wants to contact him, how does he know that? Who told him that if he’s had no contact with him, and doesn’t even know where he is? Secondly, how did Terri’s attorneys stop Kaine Horman from contacting James? Was there a restraining order filed we never saw? Was there something about that in one of the legal filings that I just am not remembering?
@Malty. Well they are experienced at sitting on a doorstep.
I continue of the opinion that this has DY’s
collaboration if not direction.
Will she be on the picket line too?
It could be good points.
Consider tho it may be an issue of primary, if not only, wage earner rules.
I too have one of those. $ rules if one wants pop’s $ input into one’s child.
Never noticed that BKH had a twitter account. Seems the last post there was in 2012. https://twitter.com/BringKyronHome
That photo there. That is the one the artist should have used to come up with an age-progressed Kyron. If I were more of an artist, I’d do one myself.
@ Rose “he had an affair with an Intel nerd”
She is not from Intel – goes back prior to Intel. Back to during DY’s marriage. Before TH. And continued after Kyron disappeared.
amendment to my August 13, 2015 at 3:00 pm post -
Not saying he didn’t ALSO have an Intel nerd affair (rumor is he did), but the long term mistress was pre-Intel…
@TRuth. Perhaps the Twitter ceased about the time Volunteer/Commincation manageress
Masai took off temporarily for Salem when volunteer/manageress KM, who was not a
twitter frequent user, came to town.
@TRuth. From that interview, I suspect
he had an intermediary at times thru a Tarver.
As far as talking to James, he had Jan 2010 to June 2010 to do that
and did not or it woukd’ve been in Pirkin’s story
@Truth Yes that is pretty much the Kaine interview I remember about James I thought he said he had to wait until James was 18 Or maybe that was another interview
At any rate you did good to find that one Thanks It makes it clear because of attorneys he was not allowed to contact James
Like you I wonder when he got that ruling or what ever
@Rose I am all for them doing the picket and chalk thing at LE. And get arrested for disturbing the whatever
LOL this case needs a laugh
That’s just it Malty- they can peacefully protest wherever they like- presumably with a permit if it is on Govt property, however, why don’t they?
@CD I see what you are talking about
Another updated pic of Kyron would be a good idea anyway he is almost 3 yrs older now
That site is confusing but I am glad you found it
Hi all, been following for a while. You all have such great insight. My question is, and forgive me, i know this has been discussed already, but what of the supposed emails TH wrote that expressed hatred for Ky, blaming him for her marital problems? I’m guessing there aren’t any?
Welcome Houndog. I will let anyone who wishes to weigh in on your query do so before I do.
B
thatkewlgirl says:
August 13, 2015 at 3:00 pm
http://blinkoncrime.com/2013/12/31/kyron-horman-missing-new-years-eve-settlement-ends-horman-marriage/#comments
Since long-term never moved in,
I guess she never had a 7 yo (snark)
and was financially able to keep her
own roof over her head.
Wonder if either of them lived near where that gps was reported stolen.
@tkg. Your theoretical questions posit Kaine calling home the evening of June 3 to say he’d not be back before K went to bed, to eat without him, and he more likely than not was informed of baby k’s doctor’s outcome and the making of big K’s apptmt. You suggest if Kaine had knowledge of sexual abuse (and imo K’s symptoms don’t indicate that at all), Kaine might have arranged a SZ to abduct K that night. this tight and trusted buddy would be a male. I realize this is on your plate, but imo to me it’s far fetched indeed.
I’m more concerned about his luring James surreptitiously to his home without informing mom. There was no reason, none, for Kaine to demand James not inform his mother about an 18 yo’s visits. Except she might have told him about the Horman’s line’s incest history–about which she likely knew more than the papers–and have cautioned him not to accept alcohol in Kaine’s home.
—-
vacations abroad? We knew about Munich: Octoberfest and car test tracks.
Others?
For the record- I want to weigh in on the prospect Kaine was abusing Kyron- there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that, nor is there any evidence that anyone was, or that Kyron was suffering from abuse symptoms. I do not have a crystal ball – the only thing I believe without independent confirmation, was that Kyron was never in situations at his age, absent parental supervision where that is likely- unless it was a parent, and then I can state once again- I saw no evidence of that.
Admittedly- I am relying on profile data from victimology and an offender profile I suspect. I felt the need to weigh in because unfortunately there are MANY cases like Kyron’s out there and pointing out their differences is as important as pointing out their similarities from an analyst perspective.
That said, because of the singular laser focus on only one de facto suspect- who the hell knows and a seven year old remains missing.
B
what is interesting is kristi seems to have cut off her two K’s from their father as thoroughly as Neil cut off Christopher from his mother. His father’s sister is highly functional and well-married. His father’s Wife 2 appears quite good on the internet. What would Kaine’s acting out in marriage have neen like, who would he have been, if Kurtis and Linda had reared him? alcohol, WoW all the time, strip clubs, revolving sex partners? And Kristian–victim of male on male incest, & of alcohol. I am sorry we have not heard from his birth father and aunt on K’s abduction. .
PS tkg. if sexual abuse were be perpetrated by a Horman, any Horman, the victims would most likely be either stepson, not his own son…based on what Kristian received and passed on.
respectfully Rose, I cannot draw inference that broadly from a deviant profile perspective.
B
But Blink, there is no evidence of any kind any young child incest abuser existed in the Horman family line, except for Kristian’s alcohol-fueled single molestation of a visiting stepdaughter after separating from her mother, and his allegation a gf did it to him.
that coukd’ve been a Mengel, tho I think not because he remembered it, the feelings, and Kristi’s divorce & remarriage were when he was a toddler. Anyway, absence seizure behavior and/or add/hd, is more indicative of an organic cause than episodic sex abuse.
oh, reading back I see Blink you said the same.
no evidence.
no reason to draw an inference.
no symptoms in Kyron.
@Houndog. What emails? I don’t consider Desiree a credible source. She often impeaches herself.
If they existed, Desiree could’ve continued her suit, subpoenaed Kaine for emails sent
& rec’d on his computer, and didn’t need mcso.
https://mobile.twitter.com/virtualwarm
she focuses on anti child abuse.
I’d think her to be divorced or separated from Mengel as he’s not in pics.
But, in one, she said grandma & grandpa bought a hat for….mShe has a warm & loving heart imo.
@ Rose says:
August 13, 2015 at 6:25 pm
She did have a child. At some point was 7 years old
But if my memory serves me it was a female. And yes, seems financially secure.
As far as abuse, just one theory of many, and who knows if it could have been father, uncle or some other male connection… Just a theory that COULD be just as true as TH having plotted this because some wacked out MFH failed by some dude that can’t speak English and pulls blackberries… or TY drug bust seeking revenge… or DY’s Canadian BF… or alien abduction… or some random SO driving by the school and seeing an opportunity to grab that kid out of the parking lot… We unfortunately don’t have facts.
Now here’s a question nobody has asked… could it be fear of some test the doctor would run? Maybe a blood test? Could someone have felt their son was too effeminate and was treating him with some steroids to beef him up? Yet another theory, far fetched, but it would be a reason to get the kid out of the way ASAP. Theories… they abound. And nary a one disproved.
And I am troubled by the manipulation of James. But that seems to be the norm in his life, so he’s comfortable with it. He probably didn’t get the red flag all of us do from it.
So way down, 2013, is a pic might be of spouse.
She had one 2014 neutral tweet that Terri was
denied name change.
@ Houndog says:
August 13, 2015 at 5:55 pm
Unfortunately, that was a statement made by DY. And it’s been proven she has blatantly lied to the public since Kyron disappeared, and will do anything to direct the public to surrogate-hate her nemesis, TH.
My personal opinion of ‘those hateful letters’ is that they do not exist in the context that DY wants people to believe. Most likely, TH was venting to a family member (or friend) and said what many mothers do out of frustration – I know I am guilty of some things I regretted as soon as they were said… but that doesn’t mean they were any level of ‘hateful’… since DY is a documented exaggerator. The letter might have simply said “I hate Kyron going to his mom’s house because he comes back having to wear pull-ups to bed again!” and DY would only relate that part of the email where she said “I hate Kyron” to her gang of rumor regurgitaters (aka reporters at PDX news stations).
If there was any truth to the ‘hateful letters’ someone in the DA or MCSO office, or in a divorce or civil case, would have leaked the content of them to local reporters as their ‘unnamed source’ IMO.
this bereft man lacks basic ego boundaries as he continues to confuse his own chilrens’ Mormon kidnapping with Desiree’s loss.
He continues to spew rumor not facts wrt stepmother’s timeline.
My conclusion is just he is primed to the wives of fathers of abducted children.
http://blogoliticalsean.blogspot.com/2015/06/on-kyron-horman-kidnapping-at-five-year.html?m=1
http://www.blogoliticalsean.blogspot.com/2015/08/twenty-years-kidnapping-happiness-and.html?m=1
primed to BLAME (word missing above) wives
@Houndog, While I really want Blink to weigh in on this, I think the basic point is relevant to every issue in this case which is the reliability of the accusations. KH and DY have both made statements that have not been verified by LE or corroborated by evidence. They have also made allegations towards DDS who was interviewed by Blink, which are not corroborated by evidence either.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2013/09/11/blink-on-crime-kyron-horman-investigation-exclusive-dede-spicher-interview-yields-allegations-of-illegal-steroid-use-terri-horman-took-to-police/
With the treatment of DDS in mind, is it a leap that TH might have been treated the same? If you go back to the beginning, DY suspected TH before she even got to Portland on the day Kyron disappeared. Of course she is entitled to her intuition, but this was the woman who her husband left her for while she was pregnant, so she may have some bias.
First we were told TH took Kyron from the school, and the media reported in every article that she was the last person Kyron was seen with, or the last person to see Kyron. Thing is, she had an alibi when Kyron was taken, and he was seen after she left the school. So the story changed. We were told that she had a helper, DDS. Later we were told there was a third party. Will we soon read of a fourth, fifth? How many more people conspired to “disappear” a kid from a school?
Does that even sound legit, that three people were involved, and no one was caught and no one has talked and both agreed to help a stepmother steal a kid? And why? And what did they do? Even the bios don’t agree what Kyron’s fate is, so where is Kyron? What did they allegedly do with him, or to him. If there are hateful emails, why doesn’t DY quote them, or release them. The media had no problem publishing some of her other emails.
Most of us here don’t know if TH had some involvement in Kyron’s abduction from a public school, but we don’t want someone’s life destroyed on suspicion and we think the school should be held accountable for losing a kid on their watch no matter who took him. I think we understand that originally TH was the target, but it is time for the investigation to consider other possibilities, because 5 years of blaming TH, TH & DDS, and TH, DDS & a third hasn’t lead to Kyron.
So, what does anyone have to lose by releasing those incriminating emails. No one here wants to call the mother of a missing son a liar, or the father of a missing son a liar, however KH and DY have not been forthcoming in the media. Whether they have been instructed to put out false information, or took it upon themselves is unclear, but if I personally am to believe anything out of either of them, I need proof.
You don’t need my 2 cents erose- great post.
B
Re-read part 1 of the Spicher interview, and it is clear that the steroids were creating problems in the Horman house due to KH’s personality change, and that the detective TH trusted with the information and to keep her complaint anonymous could not be trusted.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2013/09/11/blink-on-crime-kyron-horman-investigation-exclusive-dede-spicher-interview-yields-allegations-of-illegal-steroid-use-terri-horman-took-to-police/
@TKG Your posts are interesting but you need to point out theory to this old woman when you are just talking theory of what ever
Very early in the case probably on GLP I read Dy was a second wife there was a first wife in Shoreline Wa
I don’t think very much info from that source. Had roots in truth. How ever some long term love could be the same
Person If I believed I think by now some smart researcher would have found the paper work by now in Wa
If true Could have been a live in or nothing at all
And would have no real difference in what happened to Kyron
T. Ruth says:
August 11, 2015 at 11:37 pm
Rose says:
August 10, 2015 at 2:21 pm
(snipped)
I truly believe that “the confusion” about the date of the doctor appointment, came solely from the school . . . So the school used that confusion, intentionally or otherwise, to get off the hook . . . And then when Terri adds the part about looking at other exhibits, and says “how do you screw that up?”, is showing me her out-and-out frustration that was going on that day, as the school kept confusing issues. At this point in time I still believe the school used whatever mechanisms they had at their disposal to CYA, and the following week’s dr. appointment fit the bill.
T. Ruth says:
August 12, 2015 at 12:25 pm
IMHO the school should never have been left off the hook in the first place, as they were not following their own protocol that day. So I have always wondered, since they had previously been neglecting to bother to call home in case of absence anyway, what difference would it make? Why did Porter say she didn’t think there was a problem because she (and reportedly some other staff member) thought Kyron had a doctor appointment. Their elected policy had been, don’t bother to call, it’s such a close-knit school…blah blah blah. So why even bring that up? Why? Because they were afraid of being sued, that’s why.
I just have a feeling that if someone had bothered to sue the school, we would have answers by now, and if nothing else, whatever monetary awards would have come from said lawsuit, which most likely would have been settled out of court, could be used to hire private detectives to solve this case. Desiree sued the wrong people.
———————————————-
We talk a lot about “the school” not being held accountable. I’ve been trying to think exactly WHO we are talking about. Obviously, the school is an institution with a chain of command, but I’m talking about the actual names of those who in some way influenced the case in a negative way. I’m not saying we should point fingers or blame these individuals personally since we know so little, but I am thinking of all the “who’s” that were in a position to directly influence this case and what they each did or did not do (based on what we believe to be true at this point).
In other words, if we were attorneys suing the school for our client, who would we want to depose and why? I think I mentioned before that I was sued as a counselor and part of the school staff. The suit was by the parent of a student who lost some “heirloom” jewelry at girls’ soccer practice one afternoon. Soccer was an after school activity, even registration was not related to my duties as a counselor, and I had never been to a practice or game. PPS settled for $750 so I did not go to court. I wondered what would have happened if I had.
What I am looking for in this case is what employees (they could be named or listed by position) in the school and district had any actual influence over what happened to Kyron – intentional or unintentional. If the school were sued, what individuals might be held responsible? Can we define what vulnerabilities in the system existed and could be taken advantage of by anyone? Would this help us see who the “anyone(s)” might be?
Since no one is suing the school, I’d just like to see specifically what such a suit might look like and what sort of helpful information might come from it, if any.
Anyone have a thought about this approach?
Just as TH was alibied, so was DDS, yet the theory of TH & DDS involvement in Kyron’s abduction is perpetuated.
snip>
Spicher: “On several occasions,I reminded investigators that there was a witness to where I was working on that property on June 4th 2010, which I surmise would complete whatever timeline holes they thought I had. This has never been released publicly, but there was also an artisan show/market sale on the property the next day. There were a few vendors in and out of the property that day, but I remembered one specifically while I was working near the road that morning. I was there when he dropped off his pots/pottery and whatever else he had to show or sell. ”
The artist/driver who delivered his pottery was in his late twenties to early thirties and drove a red pick up. .
Stoy: So law enforcement knew that there was a witness from day one, that could corroborate your logistics on the property and approximate timing, is that correct?
Spicher: YES!…
http://blinkoncrime.com/2013/09/04/blink-on-crime-kyron-horman-investigation-exclusive-terri-horman-friend-dede-spicher-breaks-her-silence-after-passing-polygraph-requests-da-clear-her-publicly/
Houndog, This is an example of how the bios were lied to. Unfortunately, they perpetuated this theory, even when it was proven to be false. I consider a desperate mother unable to evolve with the case, and wonder if (a) if there were emails and (b) if she was ever shown them and of course (c) the tone of the emails if they do exist.
snip>
Spicher: Yes. Sitting right there. Frink said that we do not think you had anything to do with this, but we do think you have information about Terri Horman’s involvement, and we do think she is involved. Either you take our polygraph, or provide the information we believe you have, or, I don’t care, we will tell the family that we do think you’re involved.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2013/09/04/blink-on-crime-kyron-horman-investigation-exclusive-terri-horman-friend-dede-spicher-breaks-her-silence-after-passing-polygraph-requests-da-clear-her-publicly/
Spicher: I said that I understood the need for them to do what they had to do, but that I was not going to tell them something that was not true. I did not really expect them to say something they knew to be false. They did. The next day, my name was released to the press by Desiree Young and Kaine Horman. It was a statement about me not cooperating and I think advising others not to or words to that effect.